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==Lemabeta== | |||
={{anchor|toptoc}}Edit this section for new requests= | |||
{{hat|{{u|Lemabeta}} has acknowledged the warnings here to take more care and stay well clear of articles from which they are restricted from editing. Further violations are very likely to lead to sanctions, up to and including an indefinite block. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 12:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC) }} | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Lemabeta=== | |||
== Mactruth == | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|EF5}} 20:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{user|Mactruth}} broke his revert limitation under ] (1r/48h, with additional requirement of first posting on talk page and waiting 3h before rv ), on ] (the dab page): (edit summary: ''"Why was it changed I put it back"''); ; . Was recently blocked for similar edit-warring. (Note: I'm the admin who imposed the revert limitation, but I'm involved in the content dispute now.) ] ] 09:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Lemabeta}}<p>{{ds/log|Lemabeta}}</p> | |||
== ] == | |||
'''Arbitration case:]''' | |||
:Relevant remedy: ] (See also ) | |||
Giano, you have yet again violated your requirement to interact with other editors in a civil manner without excessive bad faith. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
The ] you are under is very simple: | |||
: ''"Giano II is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Should Giano make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, Giano may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below."'' | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
''Violation:'' | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
# - Made a draft on a European ethnic group, which they are currently barred from doing. | |||
# - Started a page on a Georgian ethnologist. | |||
You have violated this restriction several times in the last few days, the most recent an hour ago. Edits by both your {{userlinks|Giano II}} account and the another account you operate, {{user|Catherine de Burgh}}, contain posts that breach this requirement. Despite warnings by multiple users, you have continued. | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
As just a few examples: | |||
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> | |||
:* You called ] a "troll", , | |||
*Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above. | |||
:* Implied to a female user that she should be "ashamed of her sex" and told her "men don't like a woman with an opinion" . | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
:* You blanked your talkpage and tried to get back to high quality content work, but shortly after, you were back to incivility, writing "Just in case any of you were stupid enough..." , | |||
I likely filed this improperly, but to sum it up they continue to make pages in a scope they were banned from. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 20:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:* Posted uncivil comments related to your "upset of the day" . | |||
:On the bullet point, I’ve never filed an AE report before, and I wasn’t sure if “block” meant T-ban, p-block, etc., so I just picked whichever one made the most sense. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 21:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:* Your other account had similar posts, couched in "Olde English" as may be . | |||
:(Not sure if I’m allowed to reply here) I’ve never filed an AE report before, and I wasn’t sure if “block” meant T-ban, p-block, etc., so I just picked whichever one made the most sense. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 21:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:* You were told to drop it in that post, and then formally told on your main talk page that this wasn't acceptable by two administrators -- ], and ] . Your response was broadly to . | |||
:: <small>Response to Bishonen. Moved from results section. ] (]/]) 21:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
::(RES to Bishonen) That's fair. When starting the AE, it only gave me nine options, none of which seemed to fit right. The third bullet ("Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on DIFF by _____") didn't seem to fit, as the sanction wasn't for verbal conduct. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 22:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
===Discussion concerning Lemabeta=== | |||
Giano, these are not even close to being acceptable styles of speech to other users, and you well know it. ''Acceptable norms do not include name calling, offensive comments to female editors about their sex, and egregious bad faith.'' These would be egregious even for a user who did not have a lengthy history of disruption, and offensive rudeness outside communal norms. For you, there is no excuse. You know exactly what you are doing in each of these actions, and cannot complain at the results you know it brings. | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Lemabeta==== | |||
It's clear this isn't because of the situation, since you do this repeatedly. It's apparently the choice you make, that any user you feel like speaking that way to, you do so. Plenty of people get upset at situations. Most do not choose to act as you have chosen. | |||
Yeah, my bad. Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed" I recognize my mistake. --] (]) 20:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Ethnographic groups and cultural heritage are '''related but distinct concepts'''. An ''ethnographic group'' refers to a '''community of people''' defined by shared ancestry, language, traditions, and cultural identity. In contrast, ''cultural heritage'' refers to the *''practices, artifacts, knowledge, and traditions preserved or inherited from the past''. But cultural heritage is indeed a component of ethnographic groups. | |||
:So i don't believe ethnographic group should be considered as either history of the Caucasus or cultural heritage. ] (]) 20:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::In my opinion, cultural heritage (both tangible and intangible) '''emerges from''' ethnographic groups but '''does not define the group itself'''. ] (]) 20:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I think ethnographic groups fall under the category of Ethnography, or even socio-cultural antropology but for sure not cultural heritage. ] (]) 21:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I understand, i already apologized on my talk page for this accident. I will not repeat this mistake again. ] (]) 21:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
''Block:'' | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning Lemabeta=== | |||
Your last block for this was 31 hours. It didn't deter the behavior, and you continue to act in a manner you know is not acceptable. I have therefore blocked your account access for 55 hours -- a little more than 48 -- due to the egregious repetition and wilful ignoring of warnings, which suggests a slightly more serious wakeup call is needed than usual. This is in the hope that this will prevent others being attacked or spoken to offensively or with bad faith, and to make clear that I am serious - changing in future is not merely optional. | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
* I don't see Lemabeta mentioned in the case itself, but they're currently under ] from "the history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed". ] (] • she/her) 20:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:To be fair, when you click above to add a new enforcement request, the template states:<br><nowiki>;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]</nowiki><br><nowiki><!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---></nowiki> ] (]/]) 20:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{tq| Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed"}} @]: what did you think "the history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage" meant? I think it's pretty obvious that that an article on an ethnic group from the Caucasus and about an ethnologist who writes about that region is covered by your topic ban. ] (]/]) 20:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Note that I've deleted ] as a clear G5 violation. I think ] is a bit more of a questionable G5. ] (]/]) 20:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Your definition of "ethnographic group" includes the phrases "shared ancestry" (i.e., history), and "shared ... traditions" and "shared ... cultural identity" (i.e., cultural heritage). Your attempt to exclude "ethnographic group" from either of the two categories in your topic ban is entirely unpersuasive, particularly since your topic ban is to be "broadly construed". ] (]/]) 21:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@]: this doesn't seem like a mistake to me, but I'm okay with a logged warning here. ] (]/]) 21:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@]: This is about violating the TBAN. Per my response to leek, I think the issue is with the AE request template, which is a bit unclear. ] (]/]) 22:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@]: I don't think a block is needed here, but the next violation, definitely. ] (]/]) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@]: They were "reviously given ... contentious topic restriction", the topic ban at issue. ] (]/]) 22:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* {{re|Lemabeta}} Not every single thing you could write about an ethnic group would fall under cultural history, but that's not really relevant on the Rachvelians page, where the History section was entirely about their cultural history, even containing the words {{tqq| highlighting their ethnographic and cultural identity}}. There's a reason we use the words "]" on most TBANs, and a reason we encourage people to act like they're TBANned from a broader area than they are. (Consider: Would you feel safe driving under a bridge where clearance is exactly the same height as your vehicle? Or would you need a few inches' gap to feel safe doing it?){{pb}}This does seem like a good-faith misunderstanding, so if you will commit to not making it again in the future, I think this can be closed with a clarification/warning. But that's an important "if". If you want to argue semantics, then the message that sends to admins is that you don't intend to comply with the TBAN, in which case the next step would be a siteblock. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">[]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{u|EF5}}, I don't understand your {{tq|"Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above"}} statement, can you please explain what it refers to? ]? Lemabeta's block log is blank. | |||
:That said, I'm unimpressed by Lemabeta's lawyerly distinctions above, and also by ]. I'll AGF that they ''were'' accidental, but OTOH, they surely ''ought'' to have taken enough care to realize they were violations; compare Voorts' examples. I suggest a block, not sure of what length. A couple of weeks? ] | ] 21:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
::{{u|EF5}}, OK, I see. Blocks and bans are ], and the block log only logs blocks. ] | ] 22:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
*It seems that the general consensus here is to treat this as a final warning, and Lemabeta has acknowledged it as such. Unless any uninvolved admin objects within the next day or so, I will close as such. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
==Boy shekhar== | |||
Use this time to take a break from Misplaced Pages. When you return, go on with what you're really good at, which is writing articles. Avoid the other areas you are good at (pushing envelopes and insulting people) - it's a skill but not a welcomed one. And if you want to criticize Misplaced Pages dispute resolution procedures and administrators, or myself, then you are welcome to do so, so long as you do so within the same conduct norms that other content writers and editors are held to, and you stay outside the problem area of ]. | |||
{{hat | |||
| result = Blocked by Rosguill as a regular administrative action. ] (]) 23:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
}} | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Boy shekhar=== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Daniel Quinlan}} 06:34, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Boy shekhar}}<p>{{ds/log|Boy shekhar}}</p> | |||
'''Other administrators should note as stated on the page header:''' | |||
: ''"ArbCom has already decided that certain types of behavior are not constructive to our purpose of building an encyclopedia and has ruled they should not recur. The question here is whether that prohibition was breached."'' | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
This page is not to open any question of past rulings, but purely to consider whether the Arbitration restriction is breached: | |||
: ''"Should Giano make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, Giano may be blocked"'' | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
The majority, and probably all, of the above diffs appear to me to be uncivil, personal attacks, or bad faith made by Giano II. This thread is in case any administrator feels that the above posts are <u>not</u> uncivil, do <u>not</u> show bad faith, or that Giano was <u>not</u> warned and previously aware. That is the sole question for this page. | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
*{{diff2|1268704307|This edit}} violates the topic ban because it is in the topic area. It's also based on an unreliable source and the section header includes a derogatory term. | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">(] | ])</span></sup> 02:00, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
*{{diff2|972891251|Here}} is the topic ban for {{tpq|persistent insertion of ], use of unreliable sources or no sources at all, and ]}}. | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
:Since I'm not an admin, I guess I'm not welcome here, but what is this block supposed to prevent? It strikes me as punitive. --] 02:04, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> | |||
*Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on by {{admin|Doug Weller}}. | |||
*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
:: I disagree. The intent is to force a cooling-off, reflective period for Giano (especially in the light of , and the more severe sanctions that may come about in future). I agree with FT2's reading of the case and of the particular situation; the diffs he gives should be troubling, and the fact that they're merely unsurprising is a sign that we have failed in our duty to the project to prevent such poor behaviour from disrupting it, I fear. | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
:: ] ] 02:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*I've edited the article so I am involved. ] (]) 06:34, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:{{ping|Vanamonde93}} No, I don't think you're being too harsh. I think you're right. My thinking was that if I was uninvolved, I would have blocked them under ] so I sleepily submitted it here last night instead of ANI, which is what I should have done. ] (]) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
::: Correction. We don't do "cooling off blocks", so it isn't that. It is to prevent the continuing flow of incivility, bad faith, and other name calling which three admins had seen fit independently to warn him for; and it is because he is in violation of his restriction. The aim of the block is prevention, and deterrence, ]. The hope of all blocks is that the blocked user will reflect on the matter, or at the least will be prevented from continuing their active behavior for that time. ] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">(] | ])</span></sup> 02:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
* | |||
:::(edit conflict) So it's a ]? He's already been blocked and speedily unblocked for these actions, which is what started the whole ArbCom request. --] 02:14, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::: No it's not. Read my comment above. (Noted that the above is an edit conflict, written before I had commented.) ] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">(] | ])</span></sup> 02:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::Call it what you will, it's a punitive block for old events. --] 02:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::: It is deterring future misconduct, enforcing a requirement to desist from this kind of conduct, and follows (and backs up) warnings requesting Giano cease this conduct. The diffs cited, far from being "old events", have persisted until almost his most recent edits, barely an hour <s>ago</s> before the above post (and 2 hours ago now)... ] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">(] | ])</span></sup> 02:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Well, excuse me for not checking all the diffs... maybe you shouldn't include irrelevant ones. It still strikes me as punitive, especially because you guys made this civility restriction that you are now applying. --] 02:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
:I think comment, while in poor taste, can be reasonably read as satire and comedy, however poorly executed. This block shouldn't be, and I'm sure isn't, a "cooling off period," but a preventative block, aimed at enforcing an arbitration remedy. As we've stated in our ], blocks are preventative, and one of the way they prevent is by deterrence. --] (]) 02:14, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning Boy shekhar=== | |||
::Then why is he being punished only now, and not when he made the comments? David Gerard's block was already overturned, and this is just an attempt to get another block to stick. --] 02:17, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
:::: (edit conflict) He isn't being "punished". Read the block notice and my comment following James' above, they should provide you with enough information. And no, it isn't "another" anything. ] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">(] | ])</span></sup> 02:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::It's another block on him for operating CdB. --] 02:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::: Not so. The posts cited relate to conduct, not the identity of the account used for that conduct. ] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">(] | ])</span></sup> 02:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::NE2, this is heated enough without you ]. Please assume good faith, instead of simply disparaging motives without evidence.--] (]) 02:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Boy shekhar==== | |||
:::I'm saying that it should not be, and I think is not, a cool off block, but a deterrence block.--] (]) 02:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::We already had one of those, and it was overturned. --] 02:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Vanamonde==== | |||
Does this Civility Patrol reach a new level of desperation when it solemnly objects (above) , in which the contributing persona also comments on ''her own'' cosmetic dental work? Somebody says above ''The hope of all blocks is that the blocked user will reflect on the matter'', and I'm very sure that Giano (II) has done just that; my own reflection is that the arbitrators involved should turn off their computers and run along and enjoy the autumnal foliage (the seasonal variety of "get a life"), and thereafter, refreshed, return to reconsider the daft year-long "civility" restriction. -- ] (]) 02:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
This user hasn't edited for 4.5 years since they were TBANned, and none of their 31 edits show any ability to follow our PAGs. At the risk of sounding harsh, an extended AE discussion is a waste of time; a passing admin should indef them (I cannot, I am INVOLVED on most of the content they have edited). ] (]) 23:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: A user is more than welcome to engage in self deprecation. I have done so . They are not entitled - especially when under a civility requirement - to engage in offensive comments along the lines of implying that a female user should be "ashamed of her sex" and telling her "men don't like a woman with an opinion". ] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">(] | ])</span></sup> 02:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Pursing this line of inquiry will take us off the beaten track and divert us through the Albuquerque sewers. These comments are not the crux of the matter.--] (]) 02:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:{{re|Daniel Quinlan}} Apologies if that sounded like a criticism of you, it wasn't intended as such: I'm just advocating for the first uninvolved admin who sees this to block and close. ] (]) 00:14, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::This solemnity is absurd. Only a ninny would be likely to be upset about that remark ''in its context''; if anyone else genuinely seemed to be offended (and by "anyone else" I don't mean civility patrols searching for offensiveness), it's very likely that somebody would give an amicable tip-off to this person that "CdeB" was in jest; perhaps also that ''Pride and Prejudice'' is that rarity, an older and respected novel that's fun to read (for those who actually read books) but that actually got a spirited and enjoyable (if not all that faithful) work-over at Hollywood, and therefore that an adequate appreciation of the hilariously ghastly C de B(o)urgh merely requires that you sling some dirt-cheap disc in your DVD player. Now, FT2, I'm sure I've seen your username attached to sensible writing in the past; please don't get carried away here. Enjoy the autumn; or of course spring. -- ] (]) 02:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Boy shekhar=== | |||
To address FT2's points: The diffs listed above include recent incivility and bad faith. Giano has been warned repeatedly about his behavior and has been blocked by nine different admins since the February ArbCom case. This block appears to be the only way to prevent Giano from engaging in further incivility and bad faith for the next 55 hours because requests and warnings have failed. Let's hope it deters any repetition. Giano's contributions are welcome and appreciated, but civility and assuming good faith are still requirements for participating in this project. ]] ] 02:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
:Giano cannot claim that he doesn't realize that his behavior in the above diffs would be considered as disruptive. It isn't like he hasn't been reminded of this again and again. Giano does go through periods when he does wonderful work for the project, however his interpersonal skills create a hostile atmosphere for all editors who aren't him. Such a hostile atmosphere drives away other good editors, and as such should not be tolerated. All instances of disagreement with him are evidence of a grand conspiracy which is bringing Misplaced Pages down; all attempts to ask him to behave in a civil manner are personal insults to him, and all people who hold any opinion which might run counter to his own are met with streams of never ending vitriol. Blocks in this case are preventative; for the 31 or 55 or however many hours the block is in place, we are spared from this highly disruptive behavior. At this point, we need to see if he returns to this behavior before deciding if the blocks are having the intended effect; however we should also be thinking about what the next step should be if these blocks do not encourage him to avoid creating this hostile atmosphere. --].].] 04:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
In regards to: | |||
*Vanamonde93's assessment is spot on, the edit in question is the kind of gross violation of ] we indef people for on the spot even when it's not a TBAN violation. Blocked as a regular admin action. Although I will say, without knowing how exactly Vanamonde93 is involved here, this is so far beyond the pale that they could have gone ahead and blocked on an "any reasonable admin" basis. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 04:49, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<blockquote> | |||
You should not have the power to even think about it, and I won't rest until you have no powers to abuse at all. You should never have the opportunity to do this to anyone else again. '''You are a disgrace as an Admin and a disgrace a checkuser.''' | |||
</blockquote> | |||
Can the blocking admin please describe how such an opinion may be phrased so as not to be lacking in civility? | |||
Is it uncivil because it is spoken directly to the user on his talk page? | |||
Would it be acceptable to state that opinion on one's own talk page or the talk page of a third party as: | |||
<blockquote> | |||
He should not have the power to even think about it, and I won't rest until he has no powers to abuse at all. He should never have the opportunity to do this to anyone else again. '''He is a disgrace as an Admin and a disgrace a checkuser.''' | |||
</blockquote> | |||
Or, is it uncivil due to the word disgrace? Would it be acceptable to state: | |||
<blockquote> | |||
You should not have the power to even think about it, and I won't rest until you have no powers to abuse at all. You should never have the opportunity to do this to anyone else again. '''You are doing a not very good job as an Admin and are below average as a checkuser.''' | |||
</blockquote> | |||
It must be acceptable to be able to explain to a user that you find their behavior unacceptable. | |||
<p> | |||
An administrator is able to block in order to prevent an editor from continuing their active behavior for a time - but an editor with no such powers is not allowed to ever find such behavior disgraceful?] 07:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:The subject of a punitive privacy violation is of course not allowed to question it. This is made very clear by the fact that we have two instances of "recourse" (Arbcom and Ombudsmen), both of which are not prepared to even look at such matters. --] (]) 09:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::I've unblocked in part because this is more of the humourless self-importance that caused the previous block, and in part because these IRC blocks of Giano have to stop. <font color="Brown">]</font> <small><sup><font color="darkgreen">]</font><font color="Light green">]</font></sup></small> 09:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
== Meowy == | |||
{{hat|WP:AE is not your battleground}} | |||
{{User|Meowy}} was placed on 1rv per week parole according to the ruling of the arbcom case ]: . Within the last 2 days he violated his parole twice, and he was perfectly aware of consequences, since he was blocked for the similar violations of his parole 3 times before: Here he reinserted the map, which was removed from the article per discussion at ]: , failing to reach any consensus for its inclusion on talk of the article, and here he did it again: . ] (]) 18:39, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Grandmaster, Misplaced Pages's serial complainant, is at it again. The matter concerns a map which, some months ago, had been extensively and heatedly discussed in the article's talk page, with the result being no consensus to remove it and with no credible reasons given to remove it. However, some time after the discussion had ended it was removed silently (without any explanation, without even an edit summary) by ] at the end of last month. When I noticed it was gone, on the 19th November I returned the map to the article. I gave a proper edit summary for my action, and also mentioned in the talk page my reason for returning it. Almost within the same hour my edit was reverted by Grandmaster, who gave a false reason in the edit summary, saying that there was "no consensus for its inclusion". After another editor reverted Grandmaster's edit to restore the map. That edit was also reverted, this time by ], an editor who often works hand-in-glove with Grandmaster, giving what was basically an "I don't like it" explanation in the edit summary. I reverted Atabəy's edit, giving an edit summary as well as an explanation in the talk page. That was my first ''and my only'' revert of that article within a one week period (and also only my second edit made on that article in a year, though I've made contributions to its talk page). ] 21:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Note: Since Moewy was placed under editing restrictions on October 18th, 2007 then they have expired. Everyone else had it for one year only, I don't see why it should be any different for Meowy. In this case only discretionary sanctions can be applied to Meowy, like anyone else and he has done nothing to warrant any discretionary sactions.--<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small></font> 23:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Can you show me where the sanctions are limited to a year? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to be sure that's set in writing. I would suggest he's still under the 1RR/week limit, as I see no expiry on that, except such time of the logical expiration of edit warring on the subject. I know arbcom generally only ''blocks'' for a year, but I didn't know mass edit paroles such as this one were under the same limit. Or was Meowy under a more specific parole? --] (]) 17:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::I don't see any time limit actually and that is the mistake of the admin who placed him under the restrictions but since the MAXIMUM anyone has ever been sanctioned under either of the AA's has been one year than we must assume it is one year since not only there is no precedent for editing restrictions lasting for more than a year in this case, there is also no justification whatsoever.--<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small></font> 18:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:: Please see here and here: ] (]) 18:07, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
How many times should Grandmaster deliberately fabricate evidence to have his foes blocked before any action is taken against his disruptive reports? It's literally impossible that Grandmaster did not know that Meowy did not break anything. It's more than obvious from the history of edits . In what parallel world is this breaking anything (besides, it has been over a year since Meowy was subject to the sanction)? - ] (]) 03:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Meowy's parole has no time limit. Time limit was only for the parties to the first arbcom case, but even those people are to voluntarily stick to 1RR limitation, which is what hey do. As for the evidence being fabricated by me, I would prefer the admins to make their judgment. From what I see, Meowy deliberately violated his parole, as he knew that everyone else, myself included, voluntarily observes it. So why does he have to make 2 rvs within 2 days, especially considering that there was no consensus for inclusion of this map, and the third party opinion at ], where Meowy also participated in discussion, was that the map is not acceptable? I see that the group of editors tries to divert attention from this blatant violation, but I'm sure that the admins will see, who's right and who's wrong here. ] (]) 05:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were appointed an arbitrator and set the "no time limit". This is a superfulous and an unnecessary report like most of your reports.--<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small></font> 16:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Request extension of the topic ban imposed against Atabek=== | |||
Also, if anything, Atabek actually broke indirectly by whose purpose and subject of contention was the Armenian principalities of Khachen (Artsakh) noted as Karabakh on the map. Atabek was indefinitely banned from its main article. What's the use of the topic ban, when several articles cover the same principality and that he can still remove any reference to it from those other articles? Exactly like he did by removing the map, and also recently removed the reference to Khachen from by claiming that Anderson is not a valid source when Britannica and several sources consider (as shown to him in prior discussions) it as common knowledge. | |||
I strongly believe that the topic ban imposed to Atabek to be worthwhile should be extended to the history of Karabakh in general since he is gaming his topic ban, thank you. - ] (]) 03:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:This is nothing but an attempt to divert attention from real violation. Andersen is not a reliable source, and this was confirmed a number of times by admins (such as Mikka) and at the ] board. Yet there's a group of people who keep inserting references to this website, and one can only guess why they keep on doing it. ] (]) 05:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Again, Meowy is violating 1RR parole ,, and ignoring the results of ongoing discussion at and the prior conclusion by 3rd party: . And now Atabek, who actually initiated the discussion at Reliable Source Noticeboard instead of engaging in edit wars like Meowy, should be topic banned :). Brilliant! ] (]) 08:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::As I said on my talk page, I disagree the first one is a revert. It was an edit to put back content that had been removed a month earlier; we usually take 'reverting' to mean 'putting back stuff recently removed'. There has to be a logical barrier between what is a revert and what is an edit; I think a week is enough. Considering the length of the 1RR/week parole, then, a few weeks is sufficient. --] (]) 17:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::: Restoring to the article hotly disputed map, despite the results of discussion at WP:RSN and knowing that other editors will not agree with that is disruptive. Plus, I don't think revert is counted by the time elapsed since the last time the same revert was made. ] says nothing about the time between the 2 reverts. In that case, anyone can restore previously contested info twice and that would not be violation of 1RR. ] (]) 18:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::What's the time limit? If I put something back into an article that was removed six months ago, does that count as a revert? 12 months? --] (]) 19:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Isn't that amazing, that in the past 1 year, any time "AA" conflicts come up in WP:AE, only contributors from one of the "A"s are accused and placed under probation, while the other "A"s are groomed and their reverts are considered to be not quite reverts, their paroles are lifted. Additionally, the groomed side gets bold enough to propose topic banning the individual contributors for no reasons, just to further push their POV without resistance, or in past, accusing others of meatpuppetry and getting them banned, proven wrong through ArbCom, while walking away absolutely unpunished for their waste of Misplaced Pages board space, etc. And they get encouragement from admins and arbitrators patting them on the back, just notice Golbez above posting not in section pertaining to Meowy but in subsection opened by retaliating POV pushers on me while I haven't done anything, not even open AE thread. The pattern of side-taking is becoming already alarming... I have a suggestion, why not make Meowy, Eupator and even Fedayee :) - admins, spare yourself this comedy show of "neutrality". ] (]) 18:35, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:You're right. We're all in the tank for Armenia. You caught us. Good job. --] (]) 19:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | {{hab}} | ||
===Enforcement=== | |||
This is a place for arbitration related enforcement, not a place for you to bicker. The distinct lack of admin interaction with the lot of you suggests that they, like me, are upset, irritated, and exhausted of your collective nonsense. After my comment you may file your complaints, but I expect them to be short, concise, and without personal attacks. Cite the case, the relevant restriction, and the edits in question. Defenses are similarly to be short and to the point, without personal attacks. Polemics are unacceptable. Bickering is unacceptable. If anyone attempts to justify their bad conduct with "he started it" I will immediately take that as an acceptance of responsibility for a breach and block you for 3 weeks.--] (]) 20:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
==שלומית ליר== | |||
:I would also like to note, since there seems to have been some confusion, that the supervised editing remedies under AA2 were not time limited, so those placed under such restrictions are under them indefinitely. That doesn't mean forever, the sanctions may be appealed to the admin who applied the sanctions or ArbCom, and either one of those may be willing to lift sanctions after a long period of good behavior. What I'm seeing here, though, is the direct opposite of good behavior. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
Hi. Your points are valid and understandable but unfortunately, it is not the first time this was done by Grandmaser, see ... and I am digging up more recent ones. Under his own definition of what is a revert, Atabek would be blocked several time because of his reintroduction of his same reverts of months ago and this, several times. | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Smallangryplanet}} 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|שלומית ליר}}<p>{{ds/log|שלומית ליר}}</p> | |||
On the comment made by Seraphimblade: The AA2 claimed that the restrictions on AA1 remains and they made a decision to add others when it fits. It fails logic to have indefinite restriction for the new users under AA2 restrictions, particularly against Meowy and VartanM who are not as involved as all the users who don't have any restrictions anymore. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
On Atabek, is it possible to have ''Request extension of the topic ban imposed against Atabek'' addressed? Moreschi writes: ''{{user|Atabəy}}'s editing at ] and ] is classic tendentious editing. He comes back many months after the last dispute ended pushing the same rejected arguments as he did previously.'' , the rejected argument is against what Moreschi says which is: ''While this may seem a long way off from the ], the location of the historical Khachen is also that of modern-day ], so from an Azeri point of view, if we can prove that Khachen cannot validly be called Armenian (the other candidate is ]), then Armenia's claims to NK could be considered less valid. The row at Sahl Smbatean is along similar lines. Essentially this is ] again.''. Atabek’s edits described were specifically to remove Khachen principalities references from two articles just recently. He was topic banned from its main page and he is gaming the system by removing any reference of it from other pages. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows: | |||
Thank you for reading. - ] (]) 22:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:I am not reading that. "I expect them to be '''short, concise,''' and without personal attacks. Cite the case, the relevant restriction, and the edits in question.--] (]) 23:30, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*2014 to 2016: no edits. | |||
::It is short, concise, and without personal attacks. First paragraph relates to the fact that Grandmaster's report was superfluous (the paragraph was two lines long). | |||
*2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA. | |||
*2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace. | |||
*2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of ] complaining about its content and calling it . | |||
* 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October. | |||
**Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits). | |||
**In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day. | |||
**Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the ] article where they with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and without providing a reason why. | |||
**They also edited the ] article, with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content . | |||
**they also in the second AfD for ] despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA. | |||
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full . I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic. | |||
::Second paragraph relates to the fact that Meowy can not be kept in restriction for more than one year when the Arbcom restriction for the parties to the case was one year (the paragraph was two line long). | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
::The third paragraph contained mostly quotes from Moreschi about the rational of the indefinite topic ban against Atabek and the fact that Atabek gamed his topic ban by removing the reference to the Khachen principality from two articles (it’s also about two lines, the rest are quotations from Moreschi's rationale for the topic ban). | |||
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> | |||
*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on and re-iterated on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
*Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on by {{admin|Femke}}. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
::All necessary diffs were provided to the relevant cases. Thanks again.- ] (]) 00:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a , , , and . They've also been . If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is ) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. ] (]) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
:::I'm not arguing the time with you either. I'm telling you what decision ArbCom made. It's right ]. There are no time limits, that was the decision. As to those in the original case, if they were still editing disruptively in the affected areas, they could easily enough be put under the AA2 remedies by an uninvolved admin just like anyone. Regardless, though, that decision was not mine and I would have no power to change it. You could appeal it to ArbCom if you believe it unfair, I wouldn't bet on it being changed, but that's the venue for appeal if you feel the need to make one. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 05:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
::::But it makes no sense, as you can see the list of users placed under includes all the users from the prior case too. We were left to believe that it was for one year. I have no problem with that as long as it is fair for everyone. I would still like to see a reply about Atabek gaming his topic ban too. - ] (]) 07:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
==Ulster Special Constabulary== | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
Another edit war is being provoked at ] by ]. Despite a mutual editing pact made in ongoing mediation not to edit this article this user has made three successive edits today reverting information placed in the article by me. He has not entered into any dialogue on the talk page. Given the edit war of yesterday I have twice reverted him and done the same with regards to ] who has also given the same undertaking not to edit the article while mediation continues. The edit history is . In an effort to avoid disruption to the wiki and to act according to the guarantees I have given not to edit war I would ask that admins step in here to control these two very agressive editors and hopefully encourage them to drop this belligerence and return to mediation. I would be very grateful if a determined effort could be made to stamp out this type of bullying and gaming on articles related to the Irish Troubles.] (]) 13:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:If you check I have not made any undertaking to edit any articles on mediation as it was breached 4 times by Thunderer he has made 3 reverts on the USC article and 1 revert on the RUC article after promising yesterday not to edit war and was blocked after 7 3RR reports were made against him. <strong>]</strong>] 13:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by שלומית ליר==== | |||
::Would admins please note ] where the mediator has asked BigDunc not to violate his agreed editing terms. Which he has obviously done and is also promulgating an edit war. On this occasion I am not falling for the strategy as aI have guaranteed I will not edit war. I believe this was an attempt to force me into an edit war in order to get me blocked. ] (]) 13:30, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.] (]) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: I was given clarification from an admin regarding my concerns and will now be drafting a response. Thank you for your patience. ] (]) 21:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Thebiguglyalien==== | |||
:::I'm certain the mediator will confirm this for me in a moment, but no where in mediation terms or precedent are you responsible for enforcing the mediation terms on others. You are responsible for your own conduct, not that of others. Likewise it seems I see a justification of edit warring based on "well he started it." I'm seriously considering some sort of short term drastic enforcement measure and I would appreciate someone making that unnecessary. --] (])13:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision ] and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "]" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. ] (]) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::What are you waiting confirmation on Tznkai? Don't know what you mean. <strong>]</strong>] 13:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report | |||
:::::In mediation, you agree to certain editing terms, and you are responsible for policing yourself, not others. Its entirely possible you all agreed to something else however.--] (]) 13:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::We had an agreement not to edit articles that others had edited before Nov.5th this was breached 4 times by Thunderer so I struck my name on the 16th Nov from the agreement as it was pointless if editors failed to comply. <strong>]</strong>] 13:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Selfstudier==== | |||
:::::::It is my understanding that we are not to make the actual mediation itself part of any complaint here but to confirm: all parties to the ongoing mediation which includes myself, BigDunc, Domer48 and David Underdown (by his own request) have agreed NOT to edit articles which the others were involved in prior to 5th Nov 2008. There have been some small inadvertant breaches of this rule which have been discussed on the mediation talk page. The edit war yesterday and the attempt at starting another one today have been instigated by deliberate and premeditated breaches of the agreed editing conditions. In the absence of our mediator, who is in a different time zone, I reverted the edits and referred BigDunc and Domer to the mediation talk page. I believe the solution in this case is for admins to ask those parties to refrain from editing these articles and failing that, revert their edits and block the articles until the mediator ] is able to resolve the situation. ] (]) 14:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at ]. ] (]) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Your usuall tactic revert and get PP. You promised yesterday not to edit war and have reverted 3 times on one article seems your promises means nothing. And you have used the same excuse on numerous occassions and been told bring it to admin if a problem but don't revert. But you do keep reverting as you have got away with it so many times you think you can keep doing it. <strong>]</strong>] 14:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by starship.paint (2)==== | |||
::::::::Further to my above: if ] is suggesting that he has withdrawn from the mediation I request that his actions be treated as a breach of sanctions for those involved in Troubles articles which means he has breached the 1RR and should mean an immediate block. I re-iterate that this is obviously a premediated attempt to take control of the article while others are involved in mediation and is gaming.] (]) 14:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::And so are your 3 reverts I reverted once yesterday and once today. Inserting text is not a revert. <strong>]</strong>] 14:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
(outdent)Please don't attack the editor. Address the issue.] (]) 14:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:What attack? <strong>]</strong>] 14:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Oiche this is ridiculous. Thunderer, don't play traffic cop in your own mediation. Thats exactly what mediation tries to avoid! Thats what got the lot of you in this mess in the first place, insisting on enforcing things on eachother. Similarly Bigdunc, pulling out of a structured agreement is at the very least, a terribly bad idea, if not out right against policy, as is diving straight back into the articles. | |||
::The mediation was in response to a problem. I accept that one or both of you got frustrated with mediation, but the problem that lead to mediation still exists, so going back to old patterns (which is what this looks like to me) is not the answer. '''Escalation is never the answer.''' Tit for Tat is not the answer. | |||
::''At this point'' I just want it to stop. Try working out on a talk page somewhere an improved style guideline for ]/] for example. Work on your preferred versions in your userspace, and compare notes. Whatever. Stay out of article space until you can avoid reverting eachother.--] (]) 14:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::Thanks for your comments Tznkai if I am in breach of policy on mediation I was unaware and didn't realise I will strike my comments and return. This has already ended you don't have to repeat it to me thanks again. <strong>]</strong>] 14:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I would to like to raise at ], where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph ({{tq|On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...}}) that שלומית ליר added to ( / ) from the ]. '''The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph''' (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. '''] (] / ])''' 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Dunc I refuse to respond. I have drawn this to the attention of admins and they will now decide what is to be done. | |||
====Statement by xDanielx==== | |||
:::'''FAO Admins'''. Both Domer and BigDunc have now withdrawn from the mediation by redacting their agreement not to edit other articles as previously advised. This means that (from memory) Domer is on a 0RR on Troubles related articles and BigDunc on 1RR. Domer also voluntarily stated that he would not edit articles which covered the period from 1969 onwards. Both have breached these terms. ] (]) 14:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
{{yo|Arcticocean}} I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a ''pattern'' of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation. | |||
:::You refuse to respond because you cant find an attack that you claim and as Tznkai says ''don't play traffic cop in your own mediation.'' <strong>]</strong>] 14:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the , but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. ] attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>\<sup>]</sup> 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I have not withdrawn from mediation, please. I withdrew from one agreement because you kept breeching it. I'm on 1RR the same as everyone else, and ] will confirm that for you, and thats it. I can edit any article except the UDR until the end of mediation. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
==== Statement by Hemiauchenia ==== | |||
:Tzankai - what else can I do? These two have allowed us all to think they have an agreement and look what's happened as a result? Both are now trying to say they're still involved in mediation but have revoked the agreement which was the basis for discussion. I believe that's called having your cake and eating it.] (]) 14:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January | |||
::It was breached '''4 TIMES''' by you before I removed myself from the editing terms that were agreed as they seem not to apply to you. <strong>]</strong>] 14:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks: {{quote|If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on | |||
::My understanding has been that Domer48 has been under a UDR topic ban, and a 1RR on Troubles articles, a ban that is up for review by a 3 member referee panel, which will be convened upon request/advise of the mediator. I can dig out the old AE thread if needed.--] (]) 14:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
@Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.}} | |||
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD ]. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. ] (]) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . ] (]) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Cdjp1==== | |||
:::Both editors seem to think it was ok to be seen to breach the agreement then go in and edit their previous agreements to show that they no longer agree. That's after 24 hours of provocative action on these articles. ] (]) 14:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about () in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- ] (]) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Thats an untruth check the history my name was struck on the 16th Nov. <strong>]</strong>] 15:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::An admin is involved Tznkai. <strong>]</strong>] 14:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Sean.hoyland==== | |||
As a note, as everyone involved is under some sort of a restriction at this point, you should be aware that ''you'' are held directly responsible for any actions or edits that ''you'' conduct. No one is going to hold your hand and tell you if it is appropriate to revert or "insert" text; that is a judgment that is decided upon by your own conscious. No one is forcing anyone to edit war or to violate the bounds of the restrictions. <small>] | ] | ]</small> 15:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
It has been several days. Perhaps שלומית ליר could clarify whether their belief about the way Misplaced Pages works turned out to be a true belief or a false belief so that this report can progress. ] (]) 09:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I agree Seicer I am not blaming anyone for my edits and I never have.<strong>]</strong>] 15:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
:I haven't breached anything. I'm trying to bring an end to breaches by two other editors. Thus far all I seem to have done is invite '''more''' personal attacks on myself - not that I'm not used to that by now.] (]) 15:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
::Again you are making untruths were have a personally attacked you so that admins can take action if I have attacked you. <strong>]</strong>] 15:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::Have you even read what Seicer has said no one forces you to edit war. <strong>]</strong>] 15:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
::::And no-one forces you either but you seem determined to provoke edit wars.] (]) 15:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
:::::And again as Seicer says ''No one is forcing anyone to edit war or to violate the bounds of the restrictions'' <strong>]</strong>] 15:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
:::::Provoking or not (and I am not accusing anyone of this), you have a personal responsibility to not edit. Take responsibility for your own actions and edits, instead of pawning it off on the next editor or blaming others for the incident. It takes two to tango... <small>] | ] | ]</small> 15:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. ] (]) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Thanks for your input Seicer. <strong>]</strong>] 15:39, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*:The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. ] (]) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. ] (]) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of ] I would consider something more stringent. ] (]) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* While I understand {{u|Vanamonde93}}'s concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. ] places an obligation to {{xtn|Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the ]}}. The linked page provides that {{xtn|Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence}}. If an editor is ''only'' adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making ''only'' one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the ''whole article'' is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. ] 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed {{logid|166341641|at 17:33, 8 December 2024}}, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict: | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ] which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, ''Massacre of pensioners'', and ]. | |||
::* ], therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; ]; ]. | |||
::* ], then ], both to the first line of the article. | |||
::* ] and ]. | |||
::* On the talk pages, there has been a ] although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments. | |||
::* There are then edits to ]: ]; ]. At ], there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, ] (]). | |||
:: Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. ] 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::: {{re|xDanielx}} Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to ]. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken ''as a whole'' the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the ''percentage'' of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about ]. ] 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*The offwiki canvassing is a problem...{{u|שלומית ליר}}, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware ] is not allowed? ] (]) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:For transparency, שלומית ליר reached out to me, and I explained multiple policy and advised her to go ahead and respond here without waiting for individual feedback from her email to arbcom, which may or may not happen. ] (]) 22:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I take it that per {{u|Barkeep49}}'s brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (]), and then restoration of the same (]), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Luganchanka== | |||
:::::::I noticed that BigDunc signed this edit as "more untruths". Being honest here, I feel I am again being bullied, gamed and pushed into submission by people who know this system better than me. I feel my time on Misplaced Pages is coming to an end because this bullying can't be controlled and no matter what I have done in terms of compromise doesn't seem to have helped. It's a shame but I can't see any other way if I'm ever to get any peace. ] (]) 15:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
::::::::You should take this opportunity to find other articles to edit for the interim, and to distance yourself from the conflicts of the past. This is something that shouldn't force an editor to retire or quit; it's really quite petty and bowing out because of this is pretty shameful. Take the comments in good faith, because although you are not wholly at fault, you have participated in what has been described here, and of course, as I have noted above, it takes two to tango. I feel that this matter has been resolved, and would like all parties to move along and find other articles to edit. <small>] | ] | ]</small> 16:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Request concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
'''This editor has left wikipedia <small>(])</small> .''' ] (]) 16:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Hemiauchenia}} 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Luganchanka}}<p>{{ds/log|Luganchanka}}</p> | |||
====Comment from mediator==== | |||
As Tznkai and Seicer have each said: | |||
:''In mediation, you agree to certain editing terms, and you are responsible for policing yourself, not others.'' | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
All three participants to the mediation have violated the agreed upon terms of editing. I also see protracted edit-warring on the USC article by BigDunc and Thunderer. ] (co-mediator) and I remain of the opinion that if participants would each ''police themselves'', and return to the case talk page prepared to ''mediate in good faith'' a successful outcome is possible. ] (]) 17:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
For clarity, here are the Terms of Editing that were agreed to as part of the Ulster Defence Regiment mediation: | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
:"Participants agree to the following terms of editing: | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
:*I agree that, until further notice, I will not edit articles that the other participants have edited prior to 5 November. | |||
# Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child. | |||
:*I further agree to discuss any issues or concerns I have with other participants ." | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
Anyone who cares to do so may look at the USC article , or that of other articles relating to the Troubles, to see who has, or has not, breached these terms. ] (]) 18:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
BLP CTOP warning given | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
====Refactored comments from participants==== | |||
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. ]. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by {{Ping|NatGertler}} , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August ], but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. ] (]) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
With all due respect Shell, I did not breech any agreement. If I may draw you attention to Sunrays comment on the issue "Again, you are technically correct. You made a minor edit to the article on 6 November which was prior to Thunderer's first edit. My apologies." | |||
: Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the ] discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. ] (]) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: RfC opened ]. ] (]) 16:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
===Discussion concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
Mediation at the minute is all over the place, being side tracked and de-railed. Having said that it is working, in some areas at least. Now both myself and David have been putting a lot of effort in the consensus building exercise. I’ve seen it now work for me on this article which to be honest makes the UDR article look tame. I’m working through each issue in a reasoned and considered way. | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Luganchanka==== | |||
To date, that is what I’ve got out of mediation. All I need to know now is how to close a discussion, having gone through the process if there is not complete agreement. That Sunray is having difficulty with it also is, as far as I’m concerned an indication of how far I have come in the mediation. While I still don’t suffer fools gladly, I’m patient now when it comes to BS. I simply ignore it and move on. Now having said all that, being accused of bullying at this stage, is just a crock and should be struck out, unless it is defended with diff’s. I don’t for one minute think that the mediation should finish, after all this is now their third time to walk away. I’ve made positive and productive efforts, so why should I be penalised?--<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:No one has said that the mediation had ended Domer as far as I am aware it is still ongoing. <strong>]</strong>] 18:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::I was'ent sure, thanks, --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
The intro on the ] page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I ], it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.] (]) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Could an admin please remove the personal attack against two editor from this page as it seems Thunderer has returned to edit war over it. It is offensive and should not be on the page it has already been removed by the mediator on the UDR mediation page.<strong>]</strong>] 18:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Dunc your best of just leaving it to an admin, the Mediator has removed it from the mediation page so lets move on please. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Please see the ], where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior wikipedia editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.] (]) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I don't agree to the terms after 4 breaches from Thunderer went unchecked so I struck my agreement to them. If all editors would agree to it without breaching I would gladly agree again as they are reasonable conditions. <strong>]</strong>] 18:48, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
: Thank you to @] and @] for your feedback. If you see the ], discussions - {{tq|14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"}} and {{tq|First sentence}}. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.] (]) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Since your here Sunray, could you also remove the personal attack comment above, what purpose dose it serve? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:48, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I |
:: Thank you for this ], I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!] (]) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>(moved from ] — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))</small> | ||
: and due to breaches. <strong>]</strong>] 19:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:: As per ]'s comments: | |||
{{tq|"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."}} | |||
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle | |||
==Derry / Londonderry== | |||
I explained ] to Thunderer in the course of mediation , and it was a view indorsed by Shell a mediator in the second post . Despit this, Thunderer reverted an univolved editor who correctly applied ], and then reverted me when I fixed it. Not only have they breeched an agreement reached aat mediation, but they have also breeched the AE applied 1RR sanction on all Troubles related articles. I do address the issue of Derry / Londonderry as seen recently , and my edits are no different.. Now having explained my rational, and cited ], Thunderer has raised the issue of Wikistalking. I would suggest editors read ], which state “Proper use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy or correcting related problems on multiple articles. In fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam.” Thunder has again reverted both myself aand Dunc as can be seen , with the edit summary of “rv wikistalking” which is obviously not the case. Could someone explain ] to Thunderer, and suggest that if they wish to change IMOS that the talk page of IMOS is the place to do it. Untill then however, could they be asked to self revert, thanks, --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 13:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Manuals of style aren't binding policy, they're ]. That having been said, I am investigating it further. Domer, could you explain why you feel the need to take this outside of the current mediation structure?--] (]) 13:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I agree with you Tzankai. The articles being reverted are referring to official names such as Royal Navy bases which would never have been called "Derry" but would always have used the official name. I have no personal issue with the usage of Derry and often change articles myself. I'm searching, as always, for historical accuracy. ] (]) 13:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by NatGertler==== | |||
Thanks for your quick responce ], and in answer to your question as to why I raised it here, its simply because this is outside the mediation. Now since my post they have reverted , again calling it wikistalking, apart from breeching 3RR on some of them. I think it is unhelpful. All I want is the IMOS explained, that all.--<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per ]), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- ] (]) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
:3RR has not been breached when I am obviously reverting the work of three editors who are a, wikistalking and b, not interpreting IMOS correctly. ] (]) 14:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
Thunderer its four editors, please stop and use the talk page, and was trying to help. 3RR has been breeched , ,(5 Reverts of four different editors) , again please stop. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
:@]: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. ] (]/]) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at ].--] (]) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* @], edit-warring ''to remove'' negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe ]whiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. ] (]) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, ] was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a ] issue. | |||
*:But even if you ''had'' been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ''ever'' edit war over. ] (]) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from ] seems appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to ] isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., ''that'' would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of {{tq|whitewash}} before writing this off as time-served. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — ] <sub>]</sub> 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make ]. The cited BBC source does not state {{tq| masturbated and ejaculated on camera}}, saying only {{tq|graphic sex act}}. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by ''New York Post'', a generally unreliable source. {{u|Luganchanka}}, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::The detail is in the record of ''Ritter v. Tuttle'' (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::Seeing ] here and ], ] at ], I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::{{yo|Luganchanka}} | |||
*:::::::] calls upon users to {{tq|{{strong|{{em|not}}}} use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person}}. There are some narrow exceptions (when {{tq|primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it {{em|may}} be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source}}), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal ''at best'' under our ]. | |||
*:::::::— ] <sub>]</sub> 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{yo|Luganchanka}} Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say {{tq|there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior wikipedia editors}} regarding the lead? — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{yo|Luganchanka|Hemiauchenia}} | |||
*:It does seem that the discussion at ] does indicate some support for that language i.e. ({{tq|convicted child sex offender}}) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, while {{tq|There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences}} is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. | |||
*:That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got <s>]</s>two different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. | |||
*:Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. , which is cited in the ''body'' of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter {{tq|was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges}} in the state of PA (the PA statute is ; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it as {{tq|an offense of the same grade and degree}} as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding ''mens rea'' and ''actus reus'' here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is ''wise'' or ''optimal'' to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. | |||
*:Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward. | |||
*:In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A ] on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here. | |||
*:— ] <sub>]</sub> 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? ] (]) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Luganchanka has been blocked for a week by ] for BLP violations and personal attacks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ] (]) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::With this in mind, I think we should wait to hear from RTH but otherwise expect to move forward to an indef p-block on top of SFR's stopgap action, as we haven't seen anything coming close to an adequate recognition of the relevant policies and practices from Luganchanka and after several second chances and nudges, I don't see reason to expect them to change course. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==BabbleOnto== | |||
:No point in using the talk page when you consider that the first two editors who reverted me are actively involved in mediation with me at the moment. Furthermore it's about time this matter was brought to a head. Too many editors are trawling the wiki looking for opportunities to change Londonderry to Derry, often incorrectly. You've seen me err on the side of caution in the past and corrected me so you of all people should know I have no agenda other than the interests of the wiki with regards to this.] (]) 14:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
:OK, I've only looked into this briefly and had to educate myself on the real world dispute... and this is potentially really lame. How I see it is this: | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|ජපස}} 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Generally speaking, please explain your position instead of citing a policy acronym or guideline. Explain ''why'' you agree with the guideline. | |||
*I'm not sure if we have a policy or guideline on this, but I believe that articles should generally be in harmony with eachother. As long as Derry/Londonderry (the second of which is rejected by my spell checker for some reason) is at ] then it should continue to be referenced that way in other articles. | |||
*There is of course, the occasional exception, but the burden is on the person changing the name to explain, in detail, why the general convention should not apply within that article. Obvious exception would be a name change during a time of history such as: The Mongols ruled China from Daidu (modern day Beijing). | |||
*Edit wars over naming disputes have a tendency to end up ] | |||
*Don't revert! The cycle is ] not ]. | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|BabbleOnto}}<p>{{ds/log|BabbleOnto}}</p> | |||
As to the wikihounding stuff, this is what I see: | |||
*Wikihounding is relegated to malicious intent. The purpose of wikihounding is to irritate, not to conduct a genuine difference of opinion. | |||
*If an accusation of wikihounding is true, the proper course of action is not to revert it on face, and doubly so if you're the one hounded. | |||
*However, even if you disagree with an editor's changes, undoing all of their contributions on a style disagreement is really lame. This is an content dispute, and like all content disputes, reverting, especially with snappy edit summaries, is counterproductive. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
Basically, revert wars get us no where. Perhaps a fruitful discussion can take place on the ] talk page on the exceptions to the established compromise.--] (]) 14:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
:I see that Thunderer has been blocked, the course of action I suggested was to have IMOS explained to them, ask them to use the IMOS talk page, and revert themselves for the time being. Could the block be reviewed with this in mind. Thanks --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
There has been edit warring across a range of articles. See the reports . I have blocked {{user|The Thunderer}} for 48 hours. No matter who is right about the content dispute, or what other transgressions may have been committed by other parties, edit warring is not allowed. ] has good advice for all concerned. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
:Please unblock Thunderer, as he is still actively participating in this discussion.--] (]) 14:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
# Sealioning | |||
::If he wants to actively participate in the discussion, he should not get himself blocked for edit warring. When he promises to stop, a convincing promise, I may unblock him. You are free to move this discussion to his user talk page. I am sorry, but I was not aware of this discussion at the time I placed the block. I am sorry for any inconvenience, but I think it would send absolutely the wrong signal to unblock this editor so he can chat at ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
# Refusal to ] | |||
:::This isn't an idle chat, this is attempt to resolve the situation without the unnecessary use of tools. Its exactly the *right* message to send that we want editors to participate in dispute resolution. --] (]) 14:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
# Personalizing an argument. | |||
::::] is not for dispute resolution. It is for getting ArbCom sanctions enforced. Could you continue this discussion on the user's talk page, or via email? There need to be consequences or behaviors will not be changed. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
# Railroading the discussion. | |||
Hello all, I've been playing catch up here after seeing a rather nasty exchange of edits on ], an article I wrote a while back. When I wrote it, I used the term Londonderry to mean the port/naval base out of which ''Leith'' operated rather than the city (and I was deliberately vague as both HMS Ferret and her offshoots, as well as HMS Foxglove, not to mention the large American base were all in operation at this time). The official term for this was HM Naval Base, Londonderry, ( and also Ben Warlow's 'Shore establishments of the Royal Navy') and Derry was not used as the establishment's name, so I do think ] has a point, as using Derry here is literally a misnomer and technically inaccurate. The navy of the period simply termed their establishments as 'Londonderry'. One of Leith's sisters was even HMS Londonderry. For the sake of accuracy I suggest that when referring to the Second World War naval base, Londonderry is the accurate choice. ] might be a better piped link than the city one, and I regret not having done so originally, as it might have saved some trouble. ] (]) 15:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
This is all after I warned them about ] sanctions, and . Very nearly a ] on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate ]. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope. | |||
:Could I suggest that you copy your post to ] talk page and address it there. On the issue of Derry / Londonderry we use Derry=City and Londonderry=County. It's simple and it works. For example on the naval base see the google result . It can be argued either way? Thanks --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 15:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Do a google search for Londonderry + Naval base and compare.--] (]) 15:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
To get back on the original topic for a moment, I'm just going to repeat myself: | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
:OK, I've only looked into this briefly and had to educate myself on the real world dispute... and this is potentially really lame. How I see it is this: | |||
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> | |||
*Generally speaking, please explain your position instead of citing a policy acronym or guideline. Explain ''why'' you agree with the guideline. | |||
*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
*I'm not sure if we have a policy or guideline on this, but I believe that articles should generally be in harmony with eachother. As long as Derry/Londonderry (the second of which is rejected by my spell checker for some reason) is at ] then it should continue to be referenced that way in other articles. | |||
*There is of course, the occasional exception, but the burden is on the person changing the name to explain, in detail, why the general convention should not apply within that article. Obvious exception would be a name change during a time of history such as: The Mongols ruled China from Daidu (modern day Beijing). | |||
*Edit wars over naming disputes have a tendency to end up ] | |||
*Don't revert! The cycle is ] not ]. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
As to the wikihounding stuff, this is what I see: | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
*Wikihounding is relegated to malicious intent. The purpose of wikihounding is to irritate, not to conduct a genuine difference of opinion. | |||
This is a ] with respect to the topic and their ] surrounding it has been subject to at least one ] thread that remains active: ]. The hope was that they would ] and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. ] (]) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*If an accusation of wikihounding is true, the proper course of action is not to revert it on face, and doubly so if you're the one hounded. | |||
*However, even if you disagree with an editor's changes, undoing all of their contributions on a style disagreement is really lame. This is an content dispute, and like all content disputes, reverting, especially with snappy edit summaries, is counterproductive. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
'''Basically, revert wars get us no where.''' Perhaps a fruitful discussion can take place on the ] talk page on the exceptions to the established compromise. | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
===Discussion concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
I think this can be resolved without (further) use of admin tools or formal process, there looks like there are issues with the use of Derry in specific situations - enough for further discussion anyway.--] (]) 15:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by BabbleOnto==== | |||
:] would ] not be a better venue for discussion. This is the section which addressed countless edit wars and has been seen to work? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 15:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint . They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on and for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the . | |||
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing. | |||
::The problem here is that this generic use of Derry for the City and Londonderry for the country is historically innacurate. The official name of both county and city is Londonderry BUT - Londonderry is an offensive term to some people and the use of it with regards to the city, where everyone (except those with a political point to make) actually call the place Derry. So for the most part I find the use of Derry reasonable. Where we are going wrong is that some editors are taking this vague IMOS and trawling the wiki looking for articles to change - the hounding I got is an example of that. I agree that where either name is used there should be a concensus on the talk page based on the IMOS guidelines and the most suitable and appropriate title used based on the historical context. Using Derry for a navy base name is ludicrous however and isn't in line with naming convention at all. ] (]) 15:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::I'd recommend creating a subpage, then transcluding it on Talk:Derry, WT:IMOS, and Derry/Londonderry naming dispute or whatever that article was called. I myself personally despise trying to handle individual article concerns with global MOS guidelines, and suspect others do as well, so I think that actual article talk pages are the place to do it, but in the end, why not go to both. Either way, no enforcement seems to be necessary right now.--] (]) 16:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've , I've that were clarified to be wrong, I've , at times and work together. And when those editors , I didn't provoke any further. | |||
Like I suggested to ], the discussion needs to happen on ] and not here or Derry. As to your accusations of "trawling the wiki looking for articles to change" and "the hounding" you could possibly report it at ]. Since you are now unblocked, are you now willing to revert yourself on the above mentioned articles untill the discussion has taken place? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 16:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I now address the specific edits in the complaint: | |||
:This is made even more ridiculous by the fact that on one of the disputed articles there is a map showing "Londonderry" but some editors are insisting upon using "Derry" for that historical period. As for reverting, I have no need to. This spat, whether I've handled it well or badl,y has shown this IMOS for the well intended but poor policy it is and other editors have now corrected the articles properly, apart from one or two which in my opinion need to stay as they are. Do bear in mind that I've come across "Derry" in other articles but haven't changed it, even though it conflicts with the IMOS because to me it looks correct in context.] (]) 16:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates. | |||
::'''I must protest.''' Despite what has transpired ] has just gone into ] and ] and again reverted "Londonderry" while this discussion is still ongoing. I think that shows nothing but utter contempt for the editors and admins who are trying to resolve this.] (]) 16:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?" | |||
What this shows by not reverting yourself is that the block was ineffective, as was the unblocking. So the precedent it sets is, edit war on seven articles, be reported on 3RR for three violations for all seven article, get blocked for 48 hours, apologise, get unblocked, retain your edits on your version, and come here and tell us you were right all along? Have I got that right? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 16:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of , perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too. | |||
:Domer, how about sticking to ] rather than the contributor? Each individual is responsible for their own behaviour. ] (]) 19:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Based on that logic, can you explain how ] didn't get blocked for god knows how many breaches of ]? Or does this rule not apply for British editors (just troublesome Irish ones)? I seem to have missed the discussion where it was decided he hadn't really breached policy, etc, etc... --] (]) 21:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here. | |||
::'''I further object''' to these personal comments. As an Irish passport holder and other priviledges under Article 2 of the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland, I reserve the right to make judgements on Irish issues. ] (]) 23:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::Yada, yada. As Sunray says above, each individual is responsible for their own behaviour. Except it seems he forgot to add - the exception being if you're British and you breach policy - in those circumstances, we'll waive the breach and you won't get blocked. Even if it's multiple breaches. Yeah - easy to see a pattern emerging..... --] (]) 00:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that '''I'm''' not working with others. ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::There were 7 3RR reports made and no block go figure. <strong>]</strong>] 21:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*:Edited. ] (]) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Sorry, the sub-header for this section says that only admins can edit this section, I didn't realize I was allowed to reply here. | |||
::::I must admit I have intervened on two of those seven occasions to argue against blocking. Thunderer is inclined to test the limits and maybe 'cos the Admin Community is basically of the Anglo Culture they tend to be much quicker to spot Irish breaches than those of Thunderer et al - in fact I'm sure of that. But trying to get folk blocked is not something we should be doing. Personally, I am viscerally unforgiving of those who have blocked me. I'd not be surprised if Thunderer feels similarly. But he is '''sinner ''' (Wikipediacally speaking) of the first order. Thunderer, I suppose asking you to cease your problematic behaviour is futile? ] (]) 01:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*:Yes, I will. I intend on taking an extended break from wikipedia, as well. ] (]) 17:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC) <small> Moved from uninvolved admin section; you can answer questions, make comments, discuss, but all your input needs to be in your own section. ] (]) 17:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
:::::Thunderer was blocked, and then subsequently unblocked, both by Jehochman. I'd like to point out Domer himself did not want Thunderer blocked, and I did my best to move things towards a more productive discussion. That sadly has apparently failed. Separately, I resent any implication that I am biased for the British over the Irish. I think they are both inferior to my own ethnicity. (Joking!) That having been said, I am going to have a chat with the mediators on whether there has been success if there is hope for further success. --] (]) 02:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
**::{{TQ|an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.}} | |||
:::::::Tz; you could well be right about your superior ethnicity. You are obviously Japanese. ] (]) 02:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
**:: What I meant was that I'm willing to respect the consensus and not make any further edits or argue any more contrary to what the consensus decided. It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to ''personally agree'' with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, then there's nothing I can do. I still do disagree with the consensus's result. Nonetheless, I'm not going to edit or argue further, I'll respect it as a legitimate. | |||
====Statement by ProcrastinatingReader==== | |||
::::::::Sarah there's a lot of good sense in what you say but I for one would be very annoyed if I thought there was a downer on anyone simply because they are Irish and I don't think there is. Highking is exceptionally out of order when he makes personal comments about my nationality. I'm extremely proud to be Irish and my duality should not be a concern. BTW I don't think we should be unforgiving of those who have blocked us. I think it's too easy for us to be locked into our own wee mode of parochial thinking and we must understand that the international community who provide the admins aren't always switched on to our personal views. They do their best so let's not give them a hard time eh? ] (]) 12:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources. | |||
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ''ad nauseam''. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ] (]) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Asgardian == | |||
====Statement by Newimpartial==== | |||
Arbcomm case: ] | |||
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, . | |||
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I {{tq|misquoted the article}}. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends . Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of ] with pure ]. | |||
Diffs showing violating behaviour: | |||
* without , in violation of the Remedies. | |||
* - on my talk page, in violation of the Principles. | |||
2. On this they say, now, that {{tq|The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.}} This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and ]. | |||
After 7 blockable violations of the Arbcom decision, I trust that a diff showing prior warnings is not necessary. ] (]) 20:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, {{tq|You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say}} and {{tq|You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said}} - all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to {{tq|a basic failure in reading comprehension}} '''''two hours later'''''. This seems like a time travel paradox. | |||
:: If we wanted to apply the strictest letter of the law, then *maybe* he should be blocked however, he's correct that your changes introduced error into the article and needed to be removed. I think this is so marginal that a block might be over the top, however, in future he should note that clearly in the edit summary about what he's doing - I'd take that as fulfilling the "discuss" clause (obviously he'd then need to discuss any further reverting. --] (]) 21:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I {{tq|said a material lie}}, and that I {{tq|lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying}} and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But ] again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do. | |||
: The user with the IP address seem to be a good editor, but is in error. An examination of the comment here: shows that it is incorrect. As indicated, the user removed a legitimate link and restored text in the wrong tense and grammar. Despite this, I was accused me of writing a false summary. In effect, lying. This is not true. Given this, the edit is by literal definition, "ignorant", as given the user's impressive Edit History I'm surprised the comment was written. There, was however, no venom in the comment. Finally, my curiosity is piqued as to why there was such a strong reaction to what was a very minor and beneficial edit. Cordially, ] (]) 21:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. ] (]) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Wow. So this editor, who's repeatedly had a problem with civility, is just given a pass for calling another editor ignorant? I would think this demonstrates that not only does he have problems with the letter of the law, he's still unclear on the spirit of it. ] (]) 22:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Objective3000==== | |||
: Fine. I apologise. You, however, have yet to address the original point for which you are in error. It could also be argued that your own Edit Summary was uncivil. ] (]) 23:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: {{TQ|Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....}} ] currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. ] (]) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:@], this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. ] (]) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Note: ] was just TBanned from the topic of COVID-19 and indef blocked until the accusations of off-wiki coordination made by them at ANI are retracted. Those accusations are like their suggestion made in their statement in this filing. ] (]) 12:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by JoelleJay==== | |||
Asgardian is subject to an editing restriction: "He is limited to one revert per page per week (excepting obvious vandalism)." Unfortunately, he reverted 98.210.221.64 twice in one week. While these were good faith edits removing redundant information from the article, it might be smarter to sit back and let other editors handle it after the first revert. I don't agree that he tried to hide it, though. He did say "and again, Film info belongs in Film" in his edit summary (although I think he meant television, not film). --] (]) 00:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like ] doesn't disrupt things even more? ] (]) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by IntrepidContributor==== | |||
:And the incivility. It's really disappointing that nobody has spoken out about the rude manner in which I was addressed. ] (]) 08:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki (). | |||
: In response to ]'s point, there actually aren't two blind reverts as there were different changes. There was, as stated, also commentary in the Edit Summary. What concerns me is that ] has yet to address my points: | |||
One need only cross-reference names from , checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first. | |||
1. The original Edit Summary which states I was in effect lying, which is in itself uncivil and began this matter. | |||
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes. | |||
2. Why the user removed legitimate information, which ] noted above. | |||
] (]) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
There is also a more disturbing issue I wish to raise and ] alluded to it on my ] page. How does an IP user know about an Arbcom matter and go straight there? The behaviour - the fixation on civility - is very similar to that of another user who erroneously blocked me and was challenged regarding the act. I know of no way of checking for sure, but is seems very convenient. For your consideration. ] (]) 09:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
=== Statement by TarnishedPath === | |||
:Classic tactic - turn it back on the person who points out the bad behaviour. Sow seeds of doubt because of course an IP address ''must'' be trying something underhanded. None of which changes the fact that, as shows, you reverted without discussion on the talk page, and that your first post to my talk page was to call me ignorant. And for the record, it's not very hard to track down the Arbcom case or your record of incivility when is littered with references to them. ] (]) 11:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Please see ] where BabbleOnto edited ] restoring previously reverted content and ] using a shit source after they'd been told by multiple other editors in discussions ] and ] that the source was shit. Notably in the edit summary they wrote "{{tq|Read discussion page. Manual revert. No serious challenge has been made to these changes. Methinks an admin needs to get involved...}}" despite them being in a ] situation. If a clue is not gotten by the editor fast I'd suggest TBANs from both COVID and AP2 is warranted in order to cease their disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 04:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Noting the editor's continued behaviour at ]. Refer to ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: Please just answer the questions put to you, as your erroneous edit and statement in the Edit Summary started this. ] (]) 11:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::and again at ] '']''<sup>]</sup> 03:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by berchanhimez=== | |||
::No, I will not agree to play your blame-the-victim game. This is Arbitration enforcement, and the only issue here is your edits. Do you deny that is a reversion to a previous version with a few cosmetic changes? Do you deny that your first post to an IP editors talk page referred to my edits as "incorrect and even ignorant comments"? ] (]) 18:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
This user was given no less than 4 chances on the talk page to stop talking about bans/other editors and start talking about the content. They have continued crying about how they're scared of getting banned... yet they continue blabbing about other editors getting banned for their bad behavior ]. ''At a minimum'' a partial block from the talk page(s) in question is warranted, and it would be beneficial for a topic ban from the origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 03:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
: You need to acknowledge your actions. You made an incorrect statement in your Edit Summary that was also uncivil. You reverted legitimate information. I have made an accurate and true statement as to my actions. Others are now welcome to comment, although I still see this as an overreaction. ] (]) 19:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
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*{{u|BabbleOnto}}, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly {{tq|BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible}}, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at ] exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes ]. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of ]. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::{{u|Valereee}} in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. {{u|BabbleOnto}}, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction. | |||
:Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you. | |||
More examples of reverting without talk page discussion: | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
Note: These diffs show the version reverted to, and often contain superficial differences. To see what was removed, look at the difference from the last version prior to Asgardian's. | |||
:<small>As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors.</small> ] (]) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
More examples of treating other editors with contempt: | |||
{{collapse top|title=Tangential}} | |||
* | |||
::@], hm, yes, and ] also has 37 archives, and even with archiving at 21 days, 20 sections. Do you think an ECR is something that talk page needs? That's not part of the authorized restrictions an individual admin can place...hm, and I'm not sure of the policy w/re most efficiently getting that done and wasting the fewest people's time. @]? ] (]) 21:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* | |||
:::I would object to ECPing the talk page. COVID-19 ], though this specific ''article'' is protected. The purpose of protecting the page (in this case) is to push newer users to the talk page, where they can discuss changes they want made (such as by edit requests) and contribute towards consensus-building while not edit warring. Protecting talk pages is truly, ''truly'' a last resort. Ordinary good faith people would be entirely shut out and silenced—we'd not even get edit requests—and I frankly don't see anything near the level of disruption/LTA abuse that would justify jumping straight to ]. — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* | |||
::::@], not ECP. ECR: non-EC are restricted from anything but making edit requests. ] (]) 14:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* An entire section at ] | |||
:::::I see. In any case, ECR is the sort of remedy that should be reserved for more or less when all else fails—it’s still ''super'' restrictive. If new users/inexperienced users are trying to contribute towards consensus-building on the talk page (or even if they’re doing ordinary confused new editor things), and aren’t edit warring, I don’t think we’d actually be ] by enforcing ECR. | |||
:::::Suppose someone in good-faith sees “anyone can edit”, and they want to edit something topical. But then they see that the page that they want to edit is protected. They read the explanation that appears after clicking the “view source” tab. They then read that they can discuss this page with others, click on the first blue link, and then make a section using the “add topic” button in order to start a discussion. | |||
:::::“OK”, the newbie thinks, “maybe I will find someone else who agrees with me, or I’ll at least get some answer as to why the article is this way”. They leave their computer and come back in an hour. They then discover that their question has been removed by some random editor with edit summary “] violation, user not ]; malformed edit request” and find a contentious topics notice on their own user talk page, all because they don’t make a properly formatted edit request (i.e. “please change X to Y”). Or maybe they wont navigate the talk page history and they’ll angrily post that their earlier comment was deleted. Or maybe they just won’t come back. To top it off, nothing at any point in this process was obvious to them that such a requirement existed—there is no edit notice that says so, and so they couldn’t know. | |||
:::::] is ]y. It dissuades new voices from joining conversations, and it makes it somewhat hostile to true newbies. In particular, it dissuades people who, for example: | |||
:::::#Are Not hardcore/insane enough to deal with intense wiki-bureaucracy; | |||
:::::#Are unable to cope with handling unfamiliar wikitext markup when making edit requests for anything that is not a trivial word change, or who have abstract changes in mind more than concrete ones; | |||
:::::#Do not want to spend an hour of their time to figure out how to say the magic words to summon another editor to fix a typo. | |||
:::::The chief way that ECR works is by making LTAs/sockmasters have to put on a lot of effort or make a lot of edits. This raises the (time) cost of socking, and it has the benefit of possibly exposing tells along the way. But that also means that we’re imposing the same thing on good-faith newbies. | |||
:::::When deciding whether or not to impose ECR, we have to balance that it is extremely BITEy to good-faith newbies against its ability to prevent disruption. There are times where we are basically left to throw our hands up because of LTA/sockmaster abuse, and conclude that the tradeoff is worth it; the ArbCom has done this for certain contentious topics. But, the ArbCom had the wisdom to not enable ECR as a page sanction across all contentious topic areas—there is a very real tradeoff that needs to be really carefully considered. And I don’t the tradeoff leans towards embracing ECR ''here''. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">] <sub>]</sub></span> 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I'm don't think we need to have this discussion here and now, but I don't disagree it's bitey and needs to be used only where necessary. I was just asking the question of someone who is working at that article: is this an article talk where it's necessary? ] (]) 17:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{collapse bottom}} | |||
*{{u|BabbleOnto}}, are you planning to answer my questions above? Do you think you're able/willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you? Are you able/willing to stop insisting everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers? ] (]) 13:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
These were all accessable from the first page of Asgardian's recent changes. This shows that there is a strong tendency to remove the bulk of changes with which he disagrees, keeping only minor formatting fixes, all without talk page discussion. When he does choose to use talk pages, the tendency is for sarcastic, belittling statements that question the editors intentions, knowledge and competence. In short, all the same problems evident in the Arbcom case are still in play. ] (]) 21:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*:BabbleOnto's response understanding this as a suggestion to take a break from Misplaced Pages as a whole isn't quite what I was hoping to see. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around. | |||
*:@], I'd support a tban, but is AP2 enough? It seems like COVID and fringe science need to be included? ] (]) 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::AP2 + COVID? I see the same behavior at the Brian Thompson article and Havana Syndrome, so COVID alone doesn't seem adequate. Oddly, the intersection of "medicine and politics" would appear to cover all affected topics but maybe that's too bespoke? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Marlarkey== | |||
: I will say three things: | |||
{{hat|Marlarkey p-blocked from ] and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
1. Much of what ] presents is opinion, and there have been mistakes made by administrators I have spoken with in recent times. Others admit as much. | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Marlarkey}}<p>{{ds/log|Marlarkey}}</p> | |||
2. This smacks of a grudge. I've made peace - and considerable progress - with ] since the original Arbcom, and even met another user who I initially clashed with, halfway. I think everyone would just like to move on. User ], however, does not seem willing to drop the matter. Unfortunately, the behaviour (fixating on civility) and editing style matches that of ]. I know of no way to prove or disprove this. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
3. Finally, ] has yet to address the original points, being his uncivil and misleading comment, and why legitimate information was removed. This user does not seem capable of admitting that they are at fault. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
That is all I have to say. Other comments are welcome. ] (]) 04:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
:Regarding the behavior on Asgardian's part that led to this ArbCom matter, I will let other editors here and the relevant Talk Pages speak for themselves (unless otherwise asked to elaborate), including the ], ], 's and , from which he related to his multiple blocks, rather than archiving them, under the rationale that they were . I will, however, address two points: | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
'''''' | |||
:First, if one observes violations of the Civility policy, then the proper action is to politely admonish that person, or refer the matter to an administrator. The proper action is not to use such events as a rationale for engaging in such behavior oneself. Asgardian has argued that it is hypocrisy to be admonished for his incivility (what he calls "obsessed" or "fixated") because other persons were not so admonished. This is a fallacy, unless Asgardian can demonstrate that the same admins who addressed his incivility are the same ones who were aware of those other editors exhibiting the same behavior and did nothing. I am not familiar with Cameron Scott, nor has Asgardian furnished diffs showing his violations, and indeed, this is the first time he's mentioned any of these past violators by name. In any event, the fact that others violate a policy is not license to do so yourself, or to make personal comments about others who call you on it. Arguing that you are not violating policy because others are is a poor argument. | |||
# - Mainspace PIA edit prior to EC status. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request and acknowledgement of aforementioned edit. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Accused another editor of vandalism. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Says, "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration." | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
'''''' | |||
:As far as his thinly veiled implication that I and User:98.210.221.64 are one and the same by pointing out that reveals that IP to be from Santa Clara, CA, whereas I live in New Jersey, and have never been to California. I am not familiar with his/her "editing style", but for the record, I have never engaged in anonymous IP sockpuppetry. ] (]) 08:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request..."''Someone has reverted my removal of Israel - Hamas *AGAIN* so I've taken it out *AGAIN*.''" | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
# - Self-revert of direct previous mainspace reversion that was prior to EC status. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status...Made while this enforcement request was being typed up. This reversion by Marlarkey is of an edit with the direct edit summary of "Per ]". User is 100% disregarding CT requirements. | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : N/A. No previous blocks or topic bans. | |||
== Jaakobou == | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): at 15:29, 21 November 2024. | |||
Arbcomm case: ] | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
In March 2008 {{user|Jaakobou}} was blocked for a week for disruptive talk page conduct, and two months later he was blocked for a week for continuing to spar with {{user|PalestineRemembered}}. He knows what ] is, but he continues to do it, despite the recommendations of the Arb comm to which he was a party to avoid it. Recently, he has returned to soapboxing with prejudicial allusions at ]. I am at the end of my rope here. I created the article with the Arb comm recommendations regarding disengaging from contentious articles in mind. It's only very remotely related to I-P issues, and yet Jaakobou followed me (or perhaps ]) there to pick a fight over the inclusion of a wikilink to ]. Please review his talk page comments at ]. It's not a long page and the problem is pretty self-evident. If you require specific examples of what is so offensive and tendentious about his argumentation there, I'd be more than happy to provide them. Please, help. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a ]-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. '''The ]''' (] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:This is a rather odd request; Jaakobou's editing has been quite restrained in the past few months. And if you were truly concerned with soapboxing, you would have instead suggested sanctions for ], whose every talk page edit is a soapbox (e.g. ), or ], who is infamous for filling Talk: pages with 2000 word screeds (e.g. ). ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 18:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*One of the edits by Marlarkey listed above from 13 January 2025 has been by {{u|ScottishFinnishRadish}} for Marlarkey not being ECR logged. '''The ]''' (] 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::You are an involved and partisan editor, Jayjg, so it's unsurprising that you would not see a problem with Jaakobou's comments. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:*{{ping|Marlarkey}} I want to ], so I wanted to let you know that ] is what we call "broadly constructed". If you read ], it says, "{{tq|These are the current arbitration remedies applicable to any pages and edits that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.}}" The edit you are attempting to me is ''related'' to the Arab-Israel conflict. The page itself does not have to be entirely about the war to be covered under the restrictions. Any edit that is at least, even slightly related to the conflict is covered under the restrictions. While the page is about declarations of war throughout history, the specific edit is related to whether the Israel-Hamas war was a declaration of war. That is obviously related to the conflict, given it specifically is in regard to the ]. That is why the edits were reverted and why this violation report was filed. Hopefully that makes sense. Also, just a quick side-note, accusing other editors of vandalism is ] and is not really how Misplaced Pages operates. You should always ]. '''The ]''' (] 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I haven't been involved in the Q-D-S article. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 19:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::*{{ping|Marlarkey}} We are all working together to create a better encyclopedia. No one is against you and we do wish for all to edit Misplaced Pages. The ArbCom restrictions require that you have (1) at least an account of 30 days old and (2) at least 500 edits, to be able to edit content anywhere on Misplaced Pages regarding the Israel-Hamas war. At the time of all the edits linked above, you did not have 500 edits on Misplaced Pages. You were roughly at 490. At the time of this, you now have over 500 edits, which means you could now edit content regarding the Israel-Hamas war. That said, this report was made because of the several edits you made prior to reaching the 500 edit requirement. | |||
::::But you have been involved with me, and we have had many unpleasant interactions in both the distant and recent past. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:31, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::<s>You and I haven't much significant interaction in a long time. When the usual I-P suspects show up to support you and insult me, will you also say to them "you are an involved and partisan editor"?</s> ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 19:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::Jayjg, this discussion should be focussing on Jaakobou. If you want to start a new section for a different editor, then go ahead. However, in this section, please stay on topic. ] (]) 19:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Concur with {{user|Jayjg}}. ''']''' (]) 18:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::Please understand this is for the edits that you made which were in clear violation of the policy, which requires you to have 500 edits prior to editing anything even remotely related to the conflict. This report was not that you are incorrect with your removal of the content. Not at all. This report is because you removed the content before you were allowed to (i.e. the 500-edit mark). Please understand we all are on the same-side here and no one is vandalizing anything. Once this is resolved, I would be more than happy to calmly discuss the content changes with you. I hope you can understand that this report is specifically because you made the changes before you were allowed to and not at all regarding the content in those changes. '''The ]''' (] 00:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Why should I report Palestine Remembered or Nishidani? The problem is Jaakobou's commentary at the ] page. Nishidani made one comment there in response to Jaakobou's soapboxing and PR doesn't appear there at all. Am I suppose to follow the two of them around? ]<sup>]</sup> 18:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::You brought the two of them up. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 19:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::At Jaakobou's request I have been monitoring his edits occasionally and keeping an eye. I also agree with Jayjg. <font face="Arial"> ] (])</font> 18:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*{{ping|Rosguill}} After my last reply, I realized I went 105 words over the 500-word limit. I would like to request that 105-word extension (so I do not have to reword or remove the last reply I made). I do not plan to reply again as I think everything I needed to say and link to has been said and linked to. '''The ]''' (] 00:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::There has been a longstanding problem of Jaakobou's interactions with Tiamut, however I agree his soapboxing comments on the article talk page are not in themselves sufficient reason to apply a restriction. I'll give him a final warning on his talk page - he has been warned about this before. ] (]) 19:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::It's far too early for a "final warning", considering that several uninvolved admins have spoken up as opposing views on this subject. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 19:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Also agree with this comment by {{user|Jayjg}}. ''']''' (]) 19:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Earlier this year, I banned Jaakobou for a week for disruptive talk page conduct, so I disagree - this an ongoing problem. ] (]) 19:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::'''Note:''' | |||
::::::::::* I'm not sure why an action from March 2008 (9 months ago) is still held against me, when I've obviously changed my editing habits. To put it succinctly, I'm not aware that there's an ongoing issue or that a warning for nothing less than a one month ban should be awarded my attempts to improve the article. (Samples: ) | |||
::::::::::Cordially, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 22:10, 16 November 2008 (UTC) add links 22:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
Another opinion from an 'involved' admin (I guess)... I agree with Jayjg, especially about PR and Nishidani, who are well-known soapboxers. I presume that this AE complaint was made in good faith, but also ask Tiamut to seriously compare the actions of the 2 editors (you mentioned them!) with Jaakobou's. Especially PalestineRemembered, a self-proclaimed single-purpose account, where the 'purpose' seems to be adding pro-Palestinian information to articles. By comparison, Jaakobou (whose editing habits I strongly opposed in the distant past, including the time he was blocked by PhilKnight) seems to have changed his ways, contributing to articles related to Israeli culture and other unrelated stuff, getting a few DYKs in the process. He also significantly improved his conduct in the past few months, with little to no edit-warring and tendentious editing. | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
PhilKnight, I don't think you're being quite fair here. For example, a long time ago there was where Jaakobou complained against Eleland, and the discussion actually turned into an analysis of Jaakobou's actions, not Eleland's. You were present in the discussion and didn't interfere with this change in topic. I therefore ask you to look at all involved parties here again, not just Jaakobou, and decide who is really soapboxing, block-shopping, etc. Jayjg provided some relevant diffs, and I can probably provide more if you need some specific ones. -- ] <sup>(])</sup> 20:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
::For the record, the ] decision defined an "involved admin" as anyone who edits articles in the I-P "area of conflict". {{user|Jayjg}} does regularly edit there (most recently at ], and we interacted at ] just a few days ago). {{user|Ynhockey}} also regularly edits there. Both are therefore disqualified from invoking discretionary sanctions related to the ] ruling. This is a good thing. Because for editors like myself who find themselves often on the opposing side of a debate with these guys, it would be difficult to accept that they could determine our fates without prejudice. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
:::Tiamut, I'm not block-shopping and didn't come here to try and get you or anyone else blocked. If you believe otherwise then you have absolutely no understanding of what I'm all about and why I came to Misplaced Pages. I came to this page merely to offer my opinion as someone who is only moderately involved and thus knows extremely well the problems in I-P articles, and hope that as such, and as a Wikipedian who has been around for a very long time, my position will be seriously considered by actual ''un''involved admins. -- ] <sup>(])</sup> 20:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Marlarkey==== | |||
After a more serious inspection, it is fairly clear to me that this is a content dispute, and not a case of one user breaking the rules. From ] you can see that there is a disagreement about a certain 'see also' link, and the one user there who came close to soapboxing was Nishidani. Jaakobou might not be perfect, but it was actually Tiamut who - on that page, so there's no room here to make accusations against just one editor. All sides should be warned to stop immediately (Tiamut, Jaakobou and Nishidani), end of story. If someone doesn't stop, that's another problem. -- ] <sup>(])</sup> 21:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
{{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. | |||
::Yes, I reverted twice to re-include the link. I have avoided edit-warring for ages, and though I definitely lapsed today, I won't be continuing, so no worries there. However, this does not change the fact that Jaakobou stalks me to articles I create or am hard at work expanding to make heavily peppered with ]. If anyone needs more evidence of the wider context of a pattern of stalking and provocation, I can work over the next few hours to collect the diffs. I think PhilKnight's course of action was the right one and will help towards diffusing the situation. Jaakobou got a warning and hopefully he will stop engaging me the way that he has been over the last year.]<sup>]</sup> 21:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." | |||
:The behavior of {{user|PhilKnight}} is - at the very least - perplexing. He criticizes Jayg for going off topic while Jay was only responding to Tiamut's <s>snide</s> comment directed at him. PK then proceeds to dish out his "final warning" after the only two uninvolved admins who chimed in agreed that Jaakobou's behavior did not warrant any sort of warning. I propose that PK should no longer be considered a neutral and uninvolved admin in regard to I-P editors. --'']] ]'' 21:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article | |||
2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article | |||
3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. | |||
In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. | |||
::I meant to write "You are an involved and partisan ''admin''", and not ''editor''. I was only referencing the ] decision that admins who edit in the I-P area of conflict are disqualified from invoking discretionary sanctions. It was oblique sure, but snide? Please ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. | |||
:::Okay, I modified my comment.--'']] ]'' 22:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict | |||
::Also, I am not sure that anyone said the behavior "did not warrant any sort of warning." I've only briefly evaluated the underlying issue, but that claim doesn't seem to be accurate with regard to PhilKnight. I'd also note that Tiamut responded before Jayjg included any evidence for the claims that PalestineRemembered's "every talk page post is a soap box," or that Nishidani is "infamous for filling Talk: pages with 2000 word screeds," as did PhilKnight. If Jayjg corrected this, that hardly renders PhilKnight's comments less appropriate. ] (]) 22:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Although the word "warning" was not mentioned, it was clear from the discussion that the uninvolved administrators held that Jaakobou's edits were valid and no warning was warranted. Regarding the initial lack of diffs, that's irrelevant to the on-topic/off-topic discrepancy. --'']] ]'' 00:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
The reference by Weatherwriter to 21 November 2024 - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Is only a partial quote - what I actually said was "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration. I care about whether it is in the scope of this page." | |||
:::I just noted this. If I may be permitted to write a word of two without being hit with the charge of soapboxing, which all of a sudden, from the usual group, is thrown my way. Tiamut asked me on my page, given what she thought was a certain knowledge on my part of linguistics and languages, if I could review her work (see November archive). Notwithstanding a reluctance to edit wikipedia in its present hyperpolitized atmsophere, I went over, corrected some spelling, and added two citations from academic sources, one to clarify a wording that might have led to ambiguities regarding an Ugaritic expression, the other to clarify that the etymology of kudos in Indo-European linguistics is not thought of as related to Semitic as a loanword, even though that has been proposed, as Tiamut's original text made out. All of a sudden I found, having earmarked the page, that Jaakobou turned up and started reading everything as a political battle. 'Uh, God starve the flamen crows, even in Indo-European and Semitic philology, after Cyrus . . these folks are seing, well not red, but anti-Israeli, pro-terrorist POVs everywhere' was my private exasperated reaction. I now see, as Tiamut rightly complained, that Jayjg, Ynhockey and several others are now talking about my soapboxing. What in the fuck is wrong with this place? I'm a trained philologist. I did my bit to fix a few errors, and now we have politics? I'm fucked if it's worth it, Tiamut. These people are indeed malicious, and will stop at nothing to insinuate politics in order to take scalps. Throw a sanction at me, whatever. Crap, and under it, pure paranoia and gamesmanship.] (]) 23:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
The key is the final point - the scope of this article and whether the edits are validly cited in accordance with the topic of the article...namely a list of declarations of war. | |||
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. | |||
'''I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page.''' GRRRRRRrrr | |||
I've had concerns with Jaakobou in the past - me and him have discussed them at length. About 9 months ago I thought he was on his way towards a community sanction/ban, but since he's been with Durova he's been doing just fine. I've taken a look at Talk:Q-D-S and I don't really see a problem with his comments. I wouldn't class them as soapboxing at all - he's putting facts and points forward to back his side of the dipute up. It's certainly within his normal article scope and AGF would suggest that he didn't simply follow Tiamut to the article. I'd suggest closing this down and seeking outside opinions on the article at a content RfC. If that fails, try mediation. This is a content issue, not behavioural. ''']<sup>See ] or ]</sup>''' 23:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Is wikistalking not behavioural? You are wrong on his 'normal article scope'. This is strictly an article on the linguistic reflexes of the word for 'holy' in Semitic languages. If he is concerned, he would do well to ask any number of qualified specialists in Semitic languages to look over it and improve it (it could certain benefit from any native Hebrew speaker with a good background in linguistics). He hasn't. He is arguing on a disambiguation link, and came there because he saw Tiamut and I were editing it. I don't care to ban anyone. I just wish them to ratchet down their suspicions, keep off pages unless they can improve real content about which they are informed, and stop editing pages just because someone one clashes with edits them.] (]) 23:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::Well, let's get on with a content RfC and we can hopefully get some outside opinions on the matter. I disagree with the wikistalking accusation if I'm being honest. The best thing that everyone involved with this can do is to concentrate on getting these neutral opinions and the content at hand, rather than the editors behind them. Cultural disputes always get fighting between various people - let's forget about that for a second and think of a way forward with the actual article. ''']<sup>See ] or ]</sup>''' 23:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::Bureaucracy. Look, if jaakobou or any other Israeli editor here is worried about the article, the simple thing to do is to get a native Hebrew speaking wikipedian with a background in semitic linguistics to look over it. That is helpful. Stalking, and making silly comments about 'Jewish attributes' being more relevant than 'militant' Arab stuff is provocative, as the extensive challenge over disambiguation links is vapid and boring. There is huge room for some good specialist Hebrew imput here, without trying to play politics or, make a ''milhemet qodesh'' (QDS) of what looked like a straightforward piece of work to contribute to Misplaced Pages by Tiamut, who, by the way, was gratuitously insulted by Jaakobou in the past, something which requires him to be careful in interactions with her, and certainly not to jump in on an article she is drafting before she's even got here wind. ] (]) 23:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
On another point, following me reviewing the information in this complaint by WeatherWriter... | |||
"If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)" The complainant cites a link to information which I have JUST accessed and have never seen before just now. I was NOT aware of this information so it is false to suggest that this constitutes evidence that I was aware. | |||
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to wikipedia then please just say so. GRRR | |||
This report , and the actions taken as a result, are nothing short of bizarre. The report stems from an allegation of 'stalking', based on the fact that Jaakobu edited '''one''' (1) article, out of the more than '''twenty-five''' (25) main space articles that Tiamut has edited, in the last 24 hours alone. Never mind the flimsy nature of the "stalking" accusations based on a single article which the two editors have edited together - what has escaped attention is the fact that the article in question - ] - was ''promoted by the complainer'', as a self-nomination on the . A DYK nomination is an open invitation to editors, one and all, to apply close scrutiny to the proposal, and indeed, there are very stringent metrics used to judge the nomination. ] is a very active participant on DYK pages - with no fewer than 6 successful DYK nominations to his name, so it is of no surprise at all that following Tiamut's self-nom of an article in an area he is a frequent contributor to, he makes edits to this newly created and widley promoted article, edits which are clearly good faith, well argued changes to the article. </br> | |||
] (]) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Now the bizarre part begins: ] apparently does not notice any of this, and without looking into the validity of the "stalking" charge, or the actual edits involved, issues Jaakobu a "final warning" - for what, exactly? And when his actions is questioned by another administrator, he issues that admin a warning as well! </br> | |||
*:I give up... I'm being accused and being told off for responding to the accusation. I don't know anything about this procedure, have never seen this page before and know nothing about how this works because its new to me. | |||
Meanwhile, as more administrators weigh in, and side with Jaakobu or with the admin who questioned ]'s actions , it transpires that Taimut herself has admitted to edit-warring on the article in question - a b lockable offense under the best of circumstances, and doubly so for an article subject to ]. Yet, is there any 'final warning' issued to her by ]? or anyone else? I find ]'s actions here to be highly questionable, and suggest he should not be further involved in ] actions. ] (]) 00:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*:But I get it - I'm not part of the club that decides things... so I'll let you get on with that. ] (]) 00:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::<small>(Moved from WeatherWriter's section</small> I get it - you'd rather call me out by this procedure than have an accurate encyclopaedia article. You've made accusations against me and put me through this over restrictions that I knew nothing about and policies I knew nothing about. I simply came across something inaccurate and followed what I understood to be WP principles and made an objectively accurate edit. | |||
::::So now the end result is that an inaccurate article containing a politically biased assertion is going to stay live. ] (]) 02:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
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{{u|Marlarkey}}, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{u|Weather Event Writer}}, extension granted as that's essentially what Marlarkey has already taken. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Part of your confusion is that all though Jayjg does have admin status, he is considered involved, so he is treated the same as any other editor. ] (]) 00:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Multiple uninvolved admins (Cirt, Peter Symonds, Ryan Postlethwaite) sided with Jayjg, making the above response a bit of a Red Herring. Now, to the substantive point: Did you bother to review the evidence presented for the "stalking" allegation prior to issuing your bizarre "final warning", or were you relying on an 8 month old prior interaction you had with Jaakobu? ] (])` <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment was added at 00:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
Ok, having now reviewed ]'s page history, its talk page discussion, and Marlarkey's contributions more generally, I find that: | |||
:I don't consider your approach is helping matters. I agree with Ryan concerning the best approach to resolving this dispute, and suggest this discussion is closed. ] (]) 01:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:* Marlarkey has repeatedly violated ] at ] since having received a CTOP notice | |||
::I'm sure that ''you'' don't find criticisms of your actions helpful, and would like to consider the discussion closed, but I don't think that closing it now would be fair to the people impacted by your actions. You have issued a bizarre "final warning" to Jaakobu, who has done nothing wrong as far as I can tell, warned an administrator who disagreed with your actions, and let the complainer here, who has filed a bogus bad faith accusation of stalking and admitted to edit warring on the article, off without so much as a word of caution. We will resolve ''the content dispute'' via an RFC, but the behavioral issues here are far from closed. Unless you plan on retracting the warning to Jaakobu, I would like an answer to my question: Did you bother to review the evidence presented for the "stalking" allegation prior to issuing your bizarre "final warning", or were you relying on an 8 month old prior interaction you had with Jaakobu? ] (]) 01:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:*Irrespective of whether it is correct or not to include the Israel-Hamas war, Israel-Hezbollah war, or wars between states and non-state entities more broadly, WeatherWriter's edits to the page are plainly not ], which has a specific (and serious) meaning on Misplaced Pages | |||
:::I'm suggesting this discussion is closed. Obviously, if you want to a RfC then go ahead. ] (]) 01:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:*It appears to be a long-term status quo to include non-state entities provided that there is a citation to some sort of formal declaration of war, and the page's inclusion of conflicts involving non-states ] and ] do not appear to have been challenged at any point. | |||
::::I understand you suggestion, and disagree with it. This matter is not closed. ] (]) 01:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:*Marlarkey is incorrect to assert that their edit is {{tq|objectively accurate}}. Whether the edit is accurate is subject to community consensus, and the talk page arguments in favor of inclusion base themselves on RS reporting which is a valid, policy-compliant argument. Marlarkey's arguments that a declaration of war can only occur be between two states do not make any reference to a reliable source stating this; while that text is currently in the lead of the article, it does not have a citation nor is it clear that any citation in the article directly backs this. | |||
::Just for the record, I took a mutli-month break from editing and only picked it up again in earnest very recently. So Jaakobou has not had much opportunity to interact with me over the last eight months. Therefore, any apparent improvement in his attitude toward me (no stalking or provocations) had to do with my being absent, not a sea change in his behaviour in this particular regard. In any case, if people are not as familiar with the context as PhilKnight is and want to see diffs to get a better sense of the context, I can work on that on a sub-page. But I too don't mind taking Ryan's lead to consider the discussion closed. ]<sup>]</sup> 01:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:*In light of discussion at ], which at this point shows multiple editors in favor of keeping the Hamas and Hezbollah wars, only Marlarkey firmly for removing them, and one other editor calling for discussion as of December 31st, Marlarkey's edits to unilaterally remove the entries in January amount to slow-motion edit warring | |||
:::You've filed a bogus, bad-faith report alleging 'stalking' , when nothing of the kind occurred. You admitted to edit warring on that page, and have in fact edit warred today on at least one other page. And you are now compounding matters by, rather than apologizing to Jaakobu for you bad faith, alleging that the improvement in his attitude, attested to by numerous uninvolved editors, are just due to your absence. Sorry, this matter is not closed until your actions in it, and Phil Knight's, are hashed out and addressed. ] (]) 01:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:*Given that Marlarkey has had an account for well over a decade, has edited a wide variety of topics, hit 500 edits while this was happening, does not appear to have otherwise shown interest in Israel/Palestine topics, and that the edits at Declaration of war don't fit into any clear POV-warrior pattern, I don't think that pulling extended-confirmed or issuing a PIA topic ban would help. | |||
::::That isn't the purpose of this page, which is explained in the header section. Also, I suggest reading ]. ] (]) 01:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from ] (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC | |||
:::::You are wrong. The purpose of this page, as stated in the header section is "This is a message board for requesting and '''discussing enforcement''' of Arbitration Committee" decisions". You have enforced an ArbCom decision, by issuing a warning to an editor, and we are discussing this enforcement, which appears to have been a very poor call on your part. Please answer my question: what did you give Jaakobu a warning for? Do you seriously think there is stalking here? ] (]) 15:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*As Marlarkey stated that they were unaware of CT, I wanted to confirm that I double checked and found that the CT notice was properly left in November. If Marlarkey chose not to read it, well, that's rather on him—we can only leave messages, we can't force people to read them. I would otherwise agree with Rosguill's assessment. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 12:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I entirely endorse Rosguill's reading of this. I am not happy about Marlarkey's approach to our restrictions, but I don't see this as EC gaming, and I can't see how pulling EC rights could be justified at this stage. As such I endorse the proposed page block and logged warning. Marlarkey, you seem to believe that because you are right on the substance you can ignore process and guidelines - that simply isn't true. The arbitration committee has consistently held that ]; you need to be able to edit within the scope of our policies. ] (]) 17:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* Pretty much everything Rosquill said. {{u|Marlarkey}}, it doesn't look like you have a huge amount of experience working in ]s. I'm sorry you're finding this upsetting, but CTOPs are a whole 'nother world, and you're either going to have to learn how to nonproblematically work there, or not work there. ] (]) 18:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:FWIW, the CTOP warning was ]. You've got your archiving set so aggressively that you may be missing a lot of messages, and it's completely plausible that you missed this one, which was only on your talk for two days, and after it was left you didn't edit for a month. However, we do assume that if you've got your archiving set that aggressively, you're keeping on top of anything important by checking your notifications to make sure you didn't miss anything. | |||
*:You can probably prevent this happening in future by having your talk page archive ''no more frequently than you typically go between editing sessions'', leaving maybe the five most recent messages unarchived, and/or being sure to check your notifications when logging back in. Any one of those three and you've have likely seen the notification. ] (]) 18:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hatb}} | |||
==DanielVizago== | |||
:::::PhilK's status as an "uninvolved administrator" becomes more and more questionable as this thread continues. Instead of apologizing for insulting Jaakobu by plastering his talk page with - what is becoming more and more clear - an unwarranted "final warning" or at least discussing his actions he continues avoid the issue with his procedural claims. --'']] ]'' 01:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
::::::NoCal and BrewCrewer, my view is that you should cease this baseless hectoring of an admin who has acted thoroughly within reason. First BrewCrewer arrives to say that PhilKnight should not have issued warnings because Tiamut had made a snide comment and because other admins argued against a warning; never mind that the first point has now been retracted, and the second is simply false. Now NoCal arrives and says that this all comes down to an accusation of stalking, presents their case for why that didn't happen, and somehow concludes that PhilKnight ignored the case he just made. This approach is not just unhelpful, but amounts to hectoring, and has no place here. ] (]) 02:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Request concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
:::::::Well if PKnight can can act within reason (despite going against the consensus of uninvolved admins) and hector Jaakobu surely I can act within reason and hector him. Not only that, I have no problem with the fact that you are acting within reason and hectoring me for hectoring Pknight for hectoring Jaakobu. Turning to the main point of your comment, you mistakenly misrepresented my comments. I never said PKight should never had issued a warning to Jaakobu because Tiamut made a snide comment (the "snide" was later modified to "unfriendly"). I said that PKnight's comment to JayG might be evidence that he should no longer be considered "uninvolved" because JayG's off-topic comment was in response to Tiamut's off-hand comment. Your claim that is it "false" that other admins have argued against warnings is also off. Although none have said "no warnings" they were never asked if warnings should be given. They were just asked if there was a problem with Jaakobu's behavior and they both said that his edits to the article's talk page were valid. To argue that they never said "no warnings" is clearly misconstruing the context of their statements. No diffs are needed. Everything is right above. Best, --'']] ]'' 02:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Schazjmd}} 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::As I read the restrictions, any uninvolved admin is entitled to implement them. You've suggested there was consensus against a warning, but 1.) consensus isn't a prerequisite, and 2.) there was no such consensus or even any comments to that effect. One or two editors had said they agreed with Jayjg, who stated that Jaakobou has been restrained recently, and (as I read him) that other editors are worse or just as bad (this would of course be fully consistent, then, with a warning). PhilKnight then commented and said that a.) there have been problems with this before, b.) he agreed however that restrictions for this alone were not justified, and c.) that he would give Jaakobou a final warning, following previous warnings for the same thing. The effect, as far as I am aware, is not actually anything, since Jaakobou seems already to have been warned; however, it highlights that the comments pushed boundaries, potentially not for the first time. As I said above, the approach seems to me to have been more than reasonable and consistent with the other assessments that were given. ] (]) 07:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::what was the "final warning" issued for? ] (]) 14:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::PalestineRemembered seems to have taken a new-found interest in articles concerning Polish Jewry. Some of his SOAPBOXING semi-rants are cited at the top of this section; he's also decided to make some contributions, such as an extended, irrlevant ] in the middle of an article about Polish rescue efforts of Jews during the Holocaust, and a seriously , among others. I won't bother to speculate about why this editor suddenly has an interest in minimizing instances of Polish antisemitism. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 15:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Because he's Polish? With respect, I don't see how this comment is relevant here, and suggest that it be removed or moved to a relevant discussion about PR. ] (]) 19:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|DanielVizago}}<p>{{ds/log|DanielVizago}}</p> | |||
The bottom line here is that Jaakobou was almost kicked off the project about a year ago for harassment of Tiamut. Tiamut has been absent for eight months, and it appears that no sooner has she returned than Jaakobou has resumed where he left off. Perhaps Tiamut has overreacted a little to Jaakobou's intervention at the page in question, but given its peripheral relationship to the I-P conflict, J's unexpected appearance at the page and his immediate politicization of the contents, with disparaging comments about "hate movements who consider their ideology holy", it doesn't in the least suprise me that Tiamut interprets this as another episode of harassment. | |||
Given the poor relationship that these two have had, and Jaakobou's record in this regard, it seems to me that J. would be well advised to stay away as much as possible from Tiamut. Following Tiamut to obscure pages to start political bunfights is really the last thing he should be contemplating. Perhaps a "final warning" might be a little harsh for this fairly minor episode, but I do think it might be in J.'s own best interests to try and avoid any appearance of stalking or harassment of Tiamut, because the more often this kind of situation is repeated, the less generously it is likely to be interpreted by the community. ] (]) 16:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Originally I commented here on the accusations of soapboxing, but it seems that the stalking complaint is getting attention, and in light of this last comment I will say the following: Jaakobou is a frequent DYK poster/viewer, and would obviously have seen the submission by Tiamut. There is almost zero possibility of stalking here, but as to the opinion that 'Jaakobou should stay away as much as possible from Tiamut', you could also say 'Tiamut should stay away as much as possible from Jaakobou'. It works both ways and I don't see why the discussion is so biased and double-standarded against Jaakobou when everything negative said about him so far can be applied to Tiamut as well (and a slew of other involved editors). If policy has been broken, action should be taken, following warnings to ''both'' parties. If it has not been broken, there should be no action, and no warnings. -- ] <sup>(])</sup> 20:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
:::Firstly Yn, I must reject the equivalence you are trying to draw here between the behaviour of Jaakobou and that of Tiamut. Jaakobou has come under community scrutiny on numerous occasions, not only in regards to his interactions with Tiamut but also for tendentious editing (for which he has been topic banned for a week on two occasions in the last nine months) and he is also currently under mentorship. Tiamut AFAIK has never been subject to any such sanctions and is, I think, generally regarded as a responsible and productive editor. | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
:::Secondly, when I suggested that J. should try to steer clear of Tiamut, it was not my intention to suggest that he should completely avoid pages in which she is involved. That, I think, would be both impractical and unfair. I am simply trying to suggest that he should avoid ''unnecessary'' interaction. In this case, for example, we have Jaakobou turning up at a page on a very obscure subject which was authored by Tiamut, and repeatedly removing a link he apparently finds personally objectionable in some way. My question is, was this really a necessary interaction? Was the issue so vitally important it was worth risking, once again, a confrontation with Tiamut, with the attendant possibility that it might be perceived as another episode of harassment? | |||
# Added ] to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description, {{tq|This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.}}); | |||
# and Removing sourced content from ] that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny; | |||
# Changing content in ] to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary {{tq|rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources}}); | |||
# Added "bimisandry" to ], citing 4 sources, none of which include that term; | |||
# 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding ] with piped names to unrelated articles, then those names directly to the category page; | |||
# restored the "bimisandry" edit to ], then a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page; | |||
# (after final warning) adds <nowiki>] and ]</nowiki> to ]; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of {{tq|articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.}} | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
:::There are editors on Misplaced Pages with whom I too do not get along, but you won't find me following them to obscure pages to initiate content tug-o-wars over minutiae, for the very reason that they might start to accuse me of harassment, and perhaps rightfully so. In general, I try to limit my interaction with such editors to substantive issues where I feel an important principle is at stake. I am simply suggesting that Jaakobou adopt a similar approach in Tiamut's case, and vice versa. ] (]) 06:08, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*None | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
*I alerted them on | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
:: Agreed. ] needs to work both directions. There does not seem to be any soapboxing or stalking going on here and no violation of the arbcomm decision. They should work it out or use the normal dispute resolution process. <b>]<sup>] or ]</sup></b> 21:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Above diffs are all edits ''after'' the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied ] to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to ] started . On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to ] about misandry, which another editor with edit summary {{tq|remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt}}. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors. | |||
Before the level 4 warning, I guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. ] ] 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
For the record, Tiamut has only been absent for two months, and our interactions have been quite scarce for quite some time. I've no idea where the suggestion that I stalk her is coming from and certainly there's not many articles we collaborated on. -- <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 21:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:The fact is, your personal interactions with Tiamut have been grossly offensive. And that's on top of the other outrageous comments you've made about various nationalities (it's not just Arabs you've slighted or abused). You almost succeeded in driving her off with your conduct earlier in the year, and (if I'm reading the signs rightly), it looks as if you came back for the kill. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 22:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::PR, that language is unacceptable, and you should strike it out. I think it was generally agreed that this would go to a request for comment, and further bickering is inappropriate. ] (]) 23:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
:Gatoclass' comments above seem very fair. Ynhockey & Gtstricky, tbh yours were not - it is uncontroversial that Jaakobou followed Tiamut to a page that Tiamut had created, despite the history between the two of them (yes it is history, but it is surely remembered). Either way, it most certainly is not an issue that "works both ways". --] (]) 22:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
* | |||
Hi, a few words from Jaakobou's mentor. First, a reminder to all that ] has become a redirect to ]. Let's avoid use of the old term that conflates online irritation with a real world felony. As mentor I won't comment on the decisions made here other than to encourage editors who see a problem with Jaakobou's conduct to contact me with diffs; will endeavor to work things out. The suggestion for article content RFC isn't strictly an AE matter and seems like a good idea. Best wishes, <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 22:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks for the tip, never knew about the redirect. I would note that most seem to be following the chat, mainly along partisan lines, rather than looking at the Q_D_S page. I haven't remarked on it, because I expected in these cases that evidence would be analysed, rather than political battle lines be drawn. For example, Jaakobou thinks , making an edit which accentuates what is already implicit about the Jewish holy city, while introducing a remark about Mohammed ''touring heaven'' with the angel Gabriel. Perhaps I was raised in another era: in polite company once, if one boosted one's own beliefs while describing those of another group in comical, undisguisedly satirical terms (a revered figure's ascent in tradition phrased as 'touring heaven' is Montypythonesque to put it gently), it would be taken as a put down (apart from being irrelevant to the article). I suspect Jaakobou can't see the problem, not out of malice, but because he can't see where other people are coming from, and the way language works.] (]) 23:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::(ec) Might be better to assume good faith and suppose his English isn't quite at native fluency, and suggest a better alternative. He didn't show me that post before it went live, but from interacting with him off wiki and reviewing other statements pre-post I'll affirm that his use of idiomatic English isn't picture perfect. On a less contentious topic that wouldn't ruffle any feathers, but he's usually proactive about checking when something might come across the wrong way. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 23:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::Actually I did rewrite the passage, suggesting an alternative, though thinking it bizarre. Tiamut rightly elided it as irrelevant padding.] (]) 10:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::To clarify, I was working from and the relevant text I referred to was ''"the Mi'raj, is taken to the heavens, where he tours the circles of heaven, and speaks with the earlier prophets, and with Allah."'' <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 23:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
:(In response to talk page) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
:I have absolutely nothing against Muslims and/or Arabs. I still believe that my noting that, militant groups who tend to call their endeavors "holy" are a not relevant enough for a "see also" link on the Q-D-S article, was not soapboxing but a fairly reasonable and certainly not an anti-Muslim argument. Let me know if you feel otherwise and I'll think of ways to rephrase this argument in the future. | |||
:Coridally, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 23:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by DanielVizago==== | |||
::If you still think that, then I think we have a problem. Because as I explained to you , ] is a not a link to page of "militant groups who tend to call their endeavours 'holy'", but rather a link to a page which defines the meaning of the term ] "holy", a word derived from the ] root, also meaning "holy". What follows that definition is a list of Misplaced Pages articles that have the words "Quds" in their title. '''Of the eight entries listed there, two are militant groups.''' | |||
::I don't see why you continue to misrepresent the contents of that page, nor why you continue to use that misrepresentation as an opportunity to soapbox about the use of "holy" by militant groups. It's entirely irrelevant to article improvement and tt's tendentious argumentation which is either provocative by design, or a result of incompetence. In either case, it's a pattern, and it's getting awfully tiresome. ]<sup>]</sup> 00:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::My main argument/comparison regarding groups which use "Islam", "Allah", "Quds", etc. in their name should probably be addressed and it would be a nice change if comments made would stop taking a personally oriented tone. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 09:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by caeciliusinhorto==== | |||
::::. Please note, Jaakobou, that even when, on second thoughts, you reined in your remarks, you didn't see them as 'offensive', but, as one can see in this diff, '''possibly''' offensive. That your outburst proves you think Tiamut is heir to a terrorist and racist culture is obvious. You may have had second thoughts, but history is as the records state it, not as we would now rewrite it.] (]) 10:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to ]. | |||
* , categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. ]) | |||
I think that this discussion can be closed, and also that an RfC on that page is not necessary. I haven't seen anyone echo Jaakobou's position on the see also link, and I (and most others, it seems) think that Tiamut and Nishidani have it correct on that particular point. ]] 17:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
* adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of | |||
* and edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. ]) | |||
] (]) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:'''Couple notes:''' | |||
:* which supports my content related perspective. There were a couple others who noted they certainly see a point in . | |||
:* I find Nishidani's "heir to a terrorist and racist" comment above wholly innappropriate. | |||
:Cordially, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 11:29, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Simonm223==== | |||
'''Comment'''. Just for the record, before the thread is archived, this has been posted on my page. I find it incomprehensible, personally, but then again many things regarding the working of this fascinating wikiworld remain beyond my comprehension. The diff. I gave was pertinent, and my construal of it unexceptional. This is not a request for comment. | |||
Might be wise, as long as doing so wouldn't interfere with evidence, to get a revision deletion on some of the diffs presented above that make unfounded statements about BLPs. ] (]) 18:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''NPA 3''' | |||
] Please ] other editors{{#if:|, which you did here: ]}}. If you continue, you '''will''' be ] from editing Misplaced Pages. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|}}<!-- Template:uw-npa3 --> Your personal attacks, such as , against Jaakobou, are unacceptable. Even if you honestly believe the statement, which I don't consider supported by the evidence, it's inappropriate. — ] ] 16:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
== Setanta747 == | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
{{unresolved|See "Further problems" section}} | |||
'''''Arbcom case:''''' ''''' ]. | |||
*{{userlinks|Setanta747}} | |||
Setanta747 is on probation from the above case, and is limited to one revert per article per week, which was imposed . He has reverted twice on ] to which includes an unofficial and POV flag - and . <font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:<s>{{declined}} </s>with a caveat. ] is not within the "area of dispute", but this is a content conflict that needs to be sorted out, and my view on it is this: we record the ]not our opinion on the controversy.--] (]) 18:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
] if I could just draw your attention to the fact that edit warring over that flag is within the area of dispute, it was specifically stated in the case. "To address the extensive edit-warring that has taken place on articles relating to The Troubles, as well as the Ulster banner and British baronets, any user who hereafter engages in edit-warring or disruptive editing on these or related articles." Thanks --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Noted and in consideration, but I'd like to give Setanta747 a chance to respond.--] (]) 19:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:{{accepted}}. Tznkai, it was clearly stated ] that the dispute specifically included articles related to NI flags ("...The Troubles, as well as the Ulster banner..."). This double revert clearly violates that, and this is a second breaking of the ArbCom ruling. Therefore, I have blocked Setanta747 for a week. <b>]</b> 19:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::IMHO, this all could've been avoided, if the ''dependant countries'' were deleted from the article-in-question. ] (]) 19:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::: I wouldn't disagree. However, all Troubles editors should know by now that edit-warring over the Ulster Banner is a guaranteed way to get yourself a short holiday from editing. <b>]</b> 19:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::struck my decline, but I still would like to hear from Setanta, who was not notified of this thread when it started.--] (]) 19:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Good to see Domer quick off the mark as usual. Always helps to improve relations, espicially considering his impecible behaviour.] (]) 20:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
: Hate to muddy the waters, but at least one of those reverts (and possibly both) was to remove an edit of a persistent, and bothersome, banned user. Whether Setanta747 was aware of that is unclear (and the fact that there was no mention in the edit summary would suggest he probably wasn't). However, there is an ongoing issue of this banned editor using multiple IPs to revert edits from, shall we say, a more unionist perspective. Inevitably, the legal editors revert (usually multiple times) and the consequence is that those editors face sanctions where the banned editor just jumps to another IP. Now, the editors probably shouldn't be making those controversial edits in the first place at least without discussing them first, but we should be careful of blocking them as a consequence of a banned editor gaming the system. ]<font color="black">e</font>] 20:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:: Whilst I take your point, given that one of Setanta's insertions of the Ulster Banner had a completely misleading edit summary as well, which was clearly meant to 'hide' the edit, something which ("disambig template" - I think not), I don't think there's much doubt that he's being tendentious. <b>]</b> 20:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::While I would disagree with Setanta's view on the flag issue I really think this goes yet again to show that reverting IPs should not count towards 3RR or even 1RR. ] (]) 22:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::I completely agree. ] (]) 22:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::Actually Sarah777, they in fact don't count according to the arbitration case at hand. "2) Participants placed on probation are limited to one revert per article per week with respect to the set of articles included in the probation. Any participant may be briefly banned for personal attacks or incivility. '''Reversion of edits by anonymous IPs do not count as a revert'''." (emphasis mine)--] (]) 23:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::I don't dispute that the original edit was tendentious, but that wasn't the reason that the request was bought here. This isn't any old IP, its a banned editor doing his best to aggravate editors under restriction. There is typically two different issues here: there is editor #1 making edits that may be problematic, controversial or tendentious. Then there is a banned editor #2 reverting and an edit war ensures. Editor #1 gets restricted, incorrectly, for edit-warring. That should not be happening, though it does not change the fact that editor #1's edit was problematic, controversial or tendentious in the first place. We need to deal with the first issue (if it is a problem), without getting suckered into the second. ]<font color="black">e</font>] 23:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::So could we be maybe a bit flexible here and reduce the block to 24 hours? perhaps? maybe? please? ] (]) 23:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::(e/c)The first one would from any other editor deserve a quick ], but Setanta747 should know better, so some sort of more forceful measure (a block) may be sensible. I agree with Rockpocket's analysis of the situation, and recommend either vacating or reducing the block, Sarah's suggestion seems reasonable.--] (]) 23:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::: I too think that might be appropriate, but since Setanta probably isn't even aware he is blocked yet, its better to wait for the blocking admin to comment. If Black Kite hasn't commented again after 24hrs we can probably unblock Setanta with a warning about misleading edit summaries. ]<font color="black">e</font>] 23:40, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Setanta is probably out having a few scoops like any sensible Irishman on a Saturday night! ] (]) 23:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::: As I was, which is why I haven't commented in the last few hours! OK, that's a fair enough consensus, I think, so I'm going to unblock Setanta, but really - any more sneaky editing like that and a block would be reasonable regardless of who it was reverting, as I'll say on his talkpage. <b>]</b> 00:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Fair enough Kite. ] (]) 00:10, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::Flagging resolved: congratulations all around on the spectacular lack of drama.--] (]) 01:09, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Although this case was submitted and resolved (hasty decision reversed), I would like to comment on it. There was no "sneaky editing" involved. There was no "hiding" involved. I resent the lack of good faith and the accusation of it. My edit summary was as clear as most of my other edit summaries. In this case, I was disambiguating the flag of the United Kingdom from the flag of Northern Ireland. No 'hiding' or attempt at being "sneaky" was made and anyone who thinks that should perhaps take a look at the mote in their own eye. I am fully aware that any and all edits made by me is being watched by Republican-minded editors. | |||
I have made an edit to the article in question and I feel this represents both "POVs" adequately until this dispute can be resolved in some way. --<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:larger;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]</span> 14:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
* And I have reverted it. "Disambiguating" is fine if the Ulster Banner ''was'' the current flag of Northern Ireland. It isn't. Setanta is skirting the limits here. Further eyes welcome. <b>]</b> 14:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
: May I ask you why you have reverted the article? You do not own the article, yet you resist any attempt at improvement or compromise. You also continue to assert that the flag of Northern Ireland isn't the flag of Northern Ireland... and you have then the audacity to claim that you do not have a POV (see my talk page)! | |||
:: I am unsure why I need to "assert" that the UB isn't the ''current'' flag of Northern Ireland, when it is clearly ]. I don't see much point in continuing to attempt to argue with your non sequiturs, though. <b>]</b> 19:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::It is not quite as black-and-white to say that it is "stating a fact" that the Ulster Banner is not the current flag of NI. In terms of custom and practice, it is, as far as I know, the only flag used to represent NI. It is used in the Commonwealth Games, for example. Until such time as a new flag is adopted, the Ulster Banner must remain the (unofficial, if you prefer) flag of NI. The campaign on WP against the flag can be viewed in the wider context of other nationalist-POV campaigns to undermine NI in related articles right across the whole encyclopaedia, particularly the attempt to impose "Ireland" as the name for the 26-counties rather than for the whole island, of which NI is a part. ] (]) 20:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::: Ah, now - sporting use is a different matter, as I've mentioned before. However, the article involved here is ] - in other words, the current official flags of each country. Now, looking at ], we see that the current flag is the Union Flag. So, either we use the Union Flag in the former article, or we contradict the latter. See the problem now? There may well be a nationalist campaign to remove the UB from Misplaced Pages - OK, no point beating about the bush, there is, and I've sanctioned users on both sides for edit-warring on it before - but on the other hand we do need to ensure consistency across our articles. <b>]</b> 20:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::: Oh, and I completely agree about the "Ireland" issue, btw. (Not to mention the "British Isles" issue). Having said that, the focus here is on editor(s) covered by the ArbCom probation edit warring on articles. <b>]</b> 20:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
=== Further problems === | |||
* See . I have unresolved this, as it is clearly still open. <b>]</b> 18:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Ugh. This is lame. Someone please invite Setanta to explain himself.--] (]) 18:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::: I did try. His talkpage should show you how much use that was. <b>]</b> 19:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::: It is indeed very lame, Tznkai. You may not have noticed, but I have my attempt at a compromise with the article. This second attempt at compromise - one which clearly shows both 'POVs', if you will - was reverted by Snowded. I am going to ask him why he has done this - he has labelled it "vandalism" in his edit summary and my edit was clearly not vandalism. --<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:larger;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]</span> 16:29, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::I agree that disputing something is not vandalism. Your so called compromise however, is edit warring in substance and reverting in spirit, which is, as noted repeatedly above, a major no no for anyone on discretionary sanctions having to do with the Ulster Banner and other Troubles related issues. You need to be able to walk away from this.--] (]) 17:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::Setanta, the UB is simply not the flag of NI today, if it ever was. Note that some passing '''non'''-Irish/British editor who was removing "non-countries" removed a province of Finland, Sardinia and also Scotland, England and Wales on the same basis! ] (]) 21:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Oh Dear! Upon closer investigation maybe ] isn't just a random passing non-Irish/British editor! ] (]) 22:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Could you elaborate please?--] (]) 22:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I'm with you now Tz! - that message on my page from last night was a bit cryptic till I figured out that AE = Arb Enforcement. OK. | |||
*(1) I noticed that an editor who I assumed was an "outsider" (uninvolved in the British/Irish area) called ] brushed through the article and removed a provincial Finnish flag, the Flag of Sardinia and those of Wales, Scotland and England on the grounds that they were'nt countries, in the sovereign sense. | |||
*(2) I took Yman88 to be ] - for obvious reasons! | |||
*(3) It has been argued, by others including myself, that as England etc are not sovereign they are not really "countries" in the normal sense. | |||
*(4) It appeared that this random passing (Japanese) editor was therefore validating my position and undermining Setanta; not alone on NI but even on Scotland and England. Thus the ]ness of my view was apparently validated by an objective, neutral Japanese source. | |||
*(5) Then I went to make a comment on ] - and discovered ....well...have a peek! | |||
] (]) 06:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Alright, noted and keeping an eye on, thank you.--] (]) 13:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
== Request for a special restriction at ] == | |||
:'''''Executive summary: To prevent sophisticated sockpuppetry, I propose that we bar new accounts from editing the mainspace of articles under probation.''''' | |||
{{hat|collapsed due to length}} | |||
Me and ] have become concerned that it is impossible to enforce the ]. Although editors are instructed to edit only from their main or sole account, technical evidence cannot enforce this instruction against highly sophisticated sockpuppeteers. Mantanmoreland, having learned from at least four prior sock puppets, is an extremely sophisticated sockpuppeteer. His most recent ] account initially passed check user with flying colors. This account was only caught after making one—and only one—unproxied edit. | |||
There are two new editors now at ] who share Mantanmoreland's POV. ] that they're violating instruction C of the article probation (no advocacy) by their inflammatory rhetoric. I don't know whether either of them is Mantanmoreland, but I find it hard to believe that they are completely new accounts—as they claim. For example, Janeyryan claims that this is her first and only account but I note that her first edit was a sophisticated wiki-markup contribution to ], in passages purporting to deal with the ] article. Still, I don't know whether either of these accounts is certainly Mantanmoreland, and I don't see why we should spend more time worrying about it. Instead, I suggest we put controls on these articles to limit the incentives for Mantanmoreland (or Wordbomb, or anyone else) to sockpuppet in these subjects. | |||
So, I present ]. | |||
Basically, new users (I would argue users who began editing after March 2008) should refrain from <s>editing the mainspace of the</s> reverting with other users in the topics under probation. | |||
Mackan79 hoped that the editors would voluntarily agree to such restrictions, but Janeyryan rejects them, and casts aspersions on the motives of me and Mackan79. Janeyryan suggests that this proposal seeks to exclude POVs from the article. This is false. I don't know about Macken79, but I don't have a strong POV on the article. ( because I thought it was better than Here I removed some that doesn't belong in the article. Here I added material proposed by JohnnyB and Janeyryan.) | |||
Our objective is solely to prevent sockpuppeteering by removing the incentives to create new sock accounts. In this way, Mantanmoreland or any other interested party can suggest changes from the talk page, but these suggestions will be reviewed by editors who were never involved in this POV war. I think this arrangement will improve the quality of the encyclopedia; it should not be applied to just these two users, but to any new accounts in this area. | |||
This externally-driven battle must stop. In the words of Newyorkbrad, ] '']'' 02:53, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Holy smokes. While I appreciate and understand the reasoning behind this, this has a huge number of practical and philosophical problems. Aside from the "wiki way" issues, enforcing this would require a completely new technical tool or blocking any relatively young account if they attempt to edit a probation topic. Semi-Permanent full protection would probably be less drastic than this. More than a few accounts got their mop at less than six months, so March 2008 as a cut off is really a bit much | |||
:That all having been said, I trust that there are reasonable editors making these suggestions, which suggests a serious problem going on in the background that needs more attention.--] (]) 03:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::I also considered that new accounts could submit some form of identification, but that seems equally unwiki, and I don't believe we have the infrastructure. | |||
::Semi-protection has been applied almost continuously since the ArbCom. Full protection is another option that I'd considered in the past, but I think it's overkill for simply preventing new sockpuppets. This is less restrictive. ] '']'' 03:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::Having additional, un-public information here, I am convinced that at least one of the accounts here directly relates to Mantanmoreland in some way (meat or sock). While I deplore having to take steps such as the one requested above (or something similar), this is a long term disruption from a user who is exceedingly good at preventing technical identification of his accounts. If we simply restricted the two users in question from the page (perhaps allowing them to use the talk page), I am convinced that yet another one would take his place, and attempt to use up the reservoir of ] that we must do, lest we devolve into a witch hunt, the type the user in question used to do so many times to opponents in turn. This is a financial feud. This is a personal feud. This is something that has the ability to greatly harm the encyclopedia, and I urge readers to take it gravely seriously. ] (]) 03:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::I think it would be wrong to ban new accounts, because it would give too much of a POV advantage to editors on the page whose accounts were set up before March 2008. My suggestion is that anyone wanting to edit articles that fall under that ArbCom ruling should be asked to discuss on Skype, by voice and on webcam, their interest in editing those articles, with an experienced admin who has no prior involvement in the case. Certain questions can be asked to ensure that the admin really is speaking to the person behind the account and not a friend who's standing in for them. It would have to be the same admin conducting all the "interviews," for obvious reasons. The editors would also have to be willing to give their real IP address, and to commit to using only that one, or one within the same range if it's not static; and by editing the articles would be agreeing to be regularly and randomly checkusered. | |||
::::If this is applied to all accounts making edits to those pages, that would be much fairer than banning new accounts. | |||
::::Alternatively, as I suggested about 18 months ago and I see Luke has considered too, the articles should be protected so that only admins can edit if good suggestions for edits are left on talk, but where the idea would be to add new material only if there were a pressing need to do so. As I see it, what's needed is for those pages to be left in peace for a long time, in the hope that people with strong views get bored. <font color="Brown">]</font> <small><sup><font color="darkgreen">]</font><font color="Light green">]</font></sup></small> 04:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::Full protecting the articles as SlimVirgin has suggested above is a possible way to move forward on this. I do think that the proposers of this AE section have been working competently and fairly (fair disclosure: I have been a dilettante on this, when I see a bit in the news about naked short selling (such as international bans), but rather then possibly play whack a mole, or twenty questions, or put every user through an inquisition just to edit the article , the we just refuse to let it happen. I really don't like to lock this down "Long term" (ie, for the forseeable future), but rather then play the game every time a new user shows up (which is what I don't like about the current situation), or unfairly restrict a broad swath of users, it may be best to say "We're not interested in your battles." and full protect it until such point that people who want to use it as a battleground drift away. ] (]) 04:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::If we do full protection, I suggest that me, SirFozzie, and any other editor who has ever touched the article should be prevented from editing it. We'd use {{tl|editprotected}} if required, just to get truly fresh eyes. I think announcing a long policy from the outset is the best way to bore would-be POV pushing socks. (By the way, 18 months ago this would have saved tons of drama!) ] '']'' 04:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I certainly have no problem with that. ] (]) 04:18, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Hm, tough one here. The Janeyryan account history certainly raises a few eyebrows. It's conceivable but unlikely that a genuinely new editor could share a pointed interest in Misplaced Pages Review, Naked Short Selling, Overstock.com, Patrick Byrne, and Gary Weiss without being ]. A number of arbitration cases have had a ''multiple editors with a single voice'' provision, including ], ], and ]. Although that provision wasn't specifically included in the relevant case to this thread, it may be arguable that it applies generally. So on the good faith supposition that the new accounts might somehow be intimately familiar with Misplaced Pages Review yet unaware of the history behind these particular article topics, suggest leaving this instance go with a caution. Although not an administrator, I am ''fully prepared'' to open a formal arbitration clarification request and seek an amendment to the Mantanmoreland case fashioned after the findings and remedies of ]. Specifically: | |||
*'']'' | |||
*'']'' | |||
Posted in trust that any actual good faith contributor in this unusual situation will get the message and contribute non-disruptively, refraining from confrontational actions such as characterizing a polite request to depersonalize a dispute as ''''. It is natural that concerns exist after 2.5 years of contending with a persistent and very sneaky sockpuppeteer. Nonetheless, we err on the side of good faith at this website, and in ambiguous situations seek to act politely in ways that resolve conflict (or ambiguity). <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 04:29, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:That might be helpful, but I truly don't want this to be a finding about these editors. This is a sophisticated sock master. Like SirFozzie said, if we banned these accounts from the subject, Mantanmoreland could still start more, using each up until he depletes its share good faith. I would be interested, in whether Arbitrators would favor some kind of protection solution. ] '']'' 04:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::That's why I would open it as a clarification request, so that a remedy could deal with any return of MM & Co. The Agapetos angel case dealt with a dispute that had similar dimensions (although far less high profile) and a similar disruptive pattern, and the provision settled things down nicely. Given the history of CU-confirmed socking that was known even before Bassetcat was confirmed, it's a bit surprising that this year's Committee didn't include a 'who's who' provision already. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 04:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
To respond to the main proposal, heck no. Several editors already oppose arbcom's over-extension of rulings that involve editors not named in a specific case, and this would be going far further than that. Extremely out of the scope of power that arbcom has. -- ] 04:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Ned's comment appears to be directed at Luke's comment, yet fwiw the Agapetos angel decision was enacted in April 2006 and has been enforced without controversy for 2.5 years. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 04:43, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I've just seen this, and would mostly like to clarify, with respect to Luke, that this is more his proposal than mine. I don't have a strong opinion, but my comment was only intended to reflect the way I was approaching the situation, mainly in response to one of the new accounts' complaints that I was "revert warring" against the two of them. I consequently raised this, as I said on the page, mainly needing to clarify what was going on: two new accounts with the same views, jumping in with apparent familiarity, insulting other editors, making questionable edits, and as I considered notable, both tending to make grudgy comments about "Mr. Byrne." The specific problem I saw was that without stricter enforcement of the probation, treating new accounts like this normally would lead to another quick devolvement of the article. | |||
To be honest, I mostly felt that if other editors knew what was going on, then the problem might solve itself (at the moment it didn't seem anyone was paying attention). From the above, I think this may still be the best option, assuming that admins are willing to look on and deal with any editor who, under the circumstances, edits tendentiously. I do think something here needed to happen, though, so I can see the basis for Luke requesting clarification. ] (]) 06:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Also, to clarify, my suggestion wasn't that new editors be restricted to the talk page, but that they "be asked to rely heavily on the talk page, and not join together in reverting other editors." Of course to a great extent all editors should do this; my reason for saying that new accounts should in particular on these articles is that it is one of few ways to disarm the specific problem of sockpuppetry without much more restrictive measures. I do think that's a reasonable and possibly needed principle, whether or not it needs some finding here. ] (]) 06:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::I'm sorry for the mischaracterization. No "reverting with other users" is probably more palatable solution, although it's also much more subjective. I agree that would be an improvement though. ] '']'' 14:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Not to the exclusion of the excellent suggestions above, I have a recommendation to add. Part of the way that the ] was waged in the past was in the use of aggressive language and bad-faith accusations. Janeyryan's language perpetuates this: {{diff|Talk:Naked short selling|prev|239295073|"please don't take out the articles you don't like"}}, {{diff|Talk:Naked short selling|prev|239310644|"you just want to remove opinions with which you disagree"}}, {{diff|Talk:Naked short selling|prev|249561540|"what I see are two editors...attempting to ban editors from an article who disagree with them"}}, etc. Polite inquiry into another editor's reasoning and mindset is fine, but accusatory mind-reading inflames the discussion and disrupts the collaborative process. I'd like to recommend a low tolerance for mind-reading on the talk pages relevant to this case. Specifically: where such statements are made, they may be redacted by any editor without the permission of the one who made them, normal talk page etiquette notwithstanding. The editor who made the statement should be warned. And if an editor continues to use aggressive accusatory language or impute ill motives to another, they should be blocked or topic-banned quickly with appeal to Arbcom as the only recourse. ] <sup>/]/</sup> 14:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Public suspicions of sockpuppetry are also accusations of bad faith. ] '']'' 14:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Indeed, and I think that such accusations (as distinguished from polite inquiry) should also be covered under the restriction I proposed. If sockpuppetry is a concern, a discreet checkuser request or note at this AE page would be far preferable to derailing a content discussion on an article talk page. ] <sup>/]/</sup> 14:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:I regret some of my language such as that and apologize for it, but I was upset at edits that I felt were arbitrary and which changed things from correct to incorrect. This edit , reverted language by another editor that, however imperfect, made the point that the most serious NSS regulations were temporary, not permanent. That was pointed out on the talk page when originally made, but was changed back anyway. It has since then been changed back to reflect the temporary nature of those regulations. | |||
:I also was upset by this edit . While I agree that the language was inappropriate,this edit changed authorship of the cited article from correct to incorrect. Subsequent to this change, the citation was removed in its entirely by another editor, so I imagine that my concern over this was not unwarranted. I agreed that the language used by the other editor 'JohnnyB' was not good, so I later substituted more neutral language, discussed it on the talk page, and Mackan agreed with it. While all this was going on I had an exchange with Cool Hand Luke where I became annoyed, which I regret, but I was troubled that my editing was not properly appreciated. Also I felt that I was being goaded by Luke, but I now see that this was not his intent. | |||
:I just wanted to clarify the editing in question, as the subject is complicated but at issue here were some simple factual matters. I feel that my edits were generally proper, even though I did not always display proper tempermant and I certainly apologize if anyone was offended if I was not diplomatic. I agree with Mackan that editors should preferably post in the discussion pages first before making chages. I think this should be followed by all, and I thought we were reaching that. Yes, to respond to another point, I most certainly did have knowledge of the controversies surrounding these pages in a general way, as it has received widespread publicity outside of Misplaced Pages. There seem to be other editors drawn to this article by the same publicity and it is not reasonable to expect that all editors who become interested in a page because of publicity will have the same viewpoint.--] (]) 14:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::I'll briefly address the substantive issues. 1.) Most sources I have seen report that the September emergency rules "banned" naked short selling. The current source cited in the lead says so in the subtitle. Yes, some of the rules have descriptions such as "provisional," while others don't. However, JaneyRyan and JohnyB256's decision to focus only on those that do, and therefore to remove the general assessments of many sources that have said the rules "banned" the practice, did not "correct" the article as Janeyryan says. Janey says above that he or she refers to the "most serious" parts of the regulation, but this is solely their interpretation. 2.) It is possible that JohnnyB256 was correct to expand a citation while adding the language that Janey concedes was not appropriate. However, I'm not exactly sure how this is relevant. Also, it was not someone else but myself who then removed the citation altogether in response to comments on the talk page. | |||
::In any case, I don't believe Luke or I are of the opinion that Janey did not make any valid suggestions. My concern was that after Johnny made a series of problematic and contested edits that I undid and brought to the talk page, Janey replaced the majority of them without discussion. Other changes were equally problematic, including that both removed mention of the failure of Lehman Brothers, and that both replaced contested language in the lead. The problem is that if new accounts can do this, then discussion becomes ineffective. This is why I suggest that new editors on these articles, or at least those that raise flags with the probation, should be asked to show some additional consideration for some of these problems. ] (]) 20:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::It is certainly true that the sources said the rules 'banned' the practice, but more detailed sourcing indicated without a shadow of a doubt that some of these strictures were permanent and some temporary. The edits by JohnnyB drew a distinction between the temporary and permanent ones, without making value judgments as to which were more significant than others. Your edit reverted JohnnyB in toto. I reverted that reversion, and explained my reasoning on the talk page. | |||
:::I think the issue concerning the authorship of the cited study is more significant than you portray it here. A study was cited in which two of the three authors were engaged in litigation related to naked shorting. Even if that conflict was not to be noted in the article (and it eventually was, as Luke agreed with me that it was important), there was no good reason to change the citation so that the two principal authors of the study were not mentioned as authors. | |||
:::I disagree with you about Lehman Brothers. I think that it is POV to imply, on the basis of an offhand comment in a wire service story, that Lehman Brothers' demise was affected by naked shorting. Mr. Fuld said that, which is in the article and should be in the article. However, in Line 35, I think that a more neutral method of dealing with that issue needs to be found, without the controversial implication that the death of Lehman Brothers was caused by NSS. | |||
:::While all this serious dispute was going on, you at this point placed on the article talk page your 'proposal' that in effect would ban me from the article. Luke then reiterated that proposal, again on the article talk page. Even though he said he did so to get the input of other editors, so as to not come here prematurely, I felt, and I still feel, that it was not appropriate for you to place that proposal in the article talk page. I felt that doing so derailed the discussion and turned up the temperature of the discussion considerably. Then Luke placed a post on my talk page that I felt was unecessarily confrontational. I felt beleaguered by these actions. | |||
:::Whatever steps you take to enforce good behavior in this article I hope will be applied evenhandedly to new and older editors alike. I don't think it's fair to say that only new editors are making or have made inappropriate reverts, when as I just described there were edits by more established editors that were inappropriate. I think that all editors should take pains to discuss changes before making them. I also think there also should be a firm rule against discussing editor behavior, or editing strictures affecting current editors of an article, in article talk pages, whether it be this article or any article.--] (]) 21:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::To explain my "confrontational" postings: You accused me of being a POV warrior five times before I posted to your talk page, and I only did that after you said we should stop discussing it on the talk page altogether; I was doing what you requested. Contra what you state above, we were not "reaching that" or any other agreement. The talk page now stands in a position where you reject Mackan79's proposal as an attempt to "bludgeon" POVs we allegedly disagree with. | |||
::::The point is not whether this or that user is making good or bad reverts. The point is that by allowing new users to revert war, we continue to provide incentives for dedicated sock masters to battle over this material. Like Cla68 said (but you reverted calling it "trolling" ), this dispute would benefit if you stop personalizing it. ] '']'' 21:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::We're discussing what happened in the article and talk page, and I don't see how one can do that without naming the editors who did what and when. Certainl my edits have been discussed at some length, as you just did. Why is your describing my edits not 'personalizing' but when I discuss your edits it is 'personalizing.' ? | |||
:::::A proposal was placed on the article talk page that specifically singled out new editors, naming JohnnyB and myself, for a topic ban. That's about as personal as one can get, and it had no place on the article talk page in my opinion. It turned up the heat level and it was unnecessary. I also think that it wasn't necessayr for you to post on my article talk page as you did, essentially to make the case that even though you were proposing a topic ban of new editors, that it didn't have anything to do with me, when it clearly did. This is not 'mind reading.' Mackan's proposal singled out me and Johnny B. | |||
:::::I felt that the article talk pages should be confined to discussion of the article, not the editors, and I did not agree with your view that discussing a topic ban for new editors belonged in the article talk space, when it would specifically affect (and antagonize) new editors actively editing the article. | |||
:::::As for reverting, I believe that no one has the right to revert war, new editors or old, and that all editors should be encouraged to use the talk pages.--] (]) 21:39, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::No one ever suggested a topic ban. Along with SirFozzie, I don't even think a topic ban would be slightly helpful. It's a ] concerning editing to the article, not the editors. ] '']'' 21:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::The proposal was that editors from after March could not edit, but would be confined to the talk page. That;s a topic ban, in effect if not name. Look at the 'executive summary' at the top: '''''Executive summary: To prevent sophisticated sockpuppetry, I propose that we bar new accounts from editing the mainspace of articles under probation.''''' You then go on to talk about 'two new accounts,' one of which is me. How can you possibly claim that this has nothing to do with me? That is why I objected to your post in my talk page, as it was making a claim that was obviously not true, which obviously would annoy the recipient of such a post.--] (]) 21:48, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Just to clarify: the intial proposal to in topic ban new editors was made by Luke in this edit, in the article talk page, specifically mentioning JohnnyB and myself. I don't think it's correct to say that this is not plainly directed at myself and this other editor,--] (]) 22:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::::tl;dr but this is about a larger problem, and not (just?) you.--] (]) 22:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I am not, and have never been interested in uniquely restricting you or JohnnyB. ] '']'' 00:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Stepping back=== | |||
Janeyryan, let's step back from the particulars of how Luke presented his proposal. You arrived at Misplaced Pages with substantial familiarity about Misplaced Pages Review and a distinct interest in several articles that were favorites of an editor who was sitebanned a few months ago--one whose POV appears to be indistinguishable from yours. During his two years as a Wikipedian he and his interests were discussed extensively on Misplaced Pages Review. If this is coincidence it certainly is a remarkable one, particularly as we extend the good faith assumption that you stumbled into this quandary innocently despite your demonstration of fairly in-depth knowledge of the website that was most critical of him. Combine that with two other circumstances: the sitebanned editor was a serial sockpuppeteer whose last accounts were identified and banned a few months before your first edit. Now one way you could distinguish yourself from him--if indeed you have no connection to him--is by breaking from other patterns he exhibited. He was extremely skilled at sidestepping pertinent concerns about his conduct, and at blowing smoke over minor side issues, and at taking umbrage at direct questions. If you have a simple and direct explanation for this highly unusual profile of interests and POV your account has demonstrated then the community would give you a fair hearing. Historically, every previous account that has exhibited the same profile has turned out to be a sockpuppet of that same banned editor. So you can clear the air right now if you want: please, how did this come about? <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 23:48, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:I've already explained that I became interested in these articles and subject matter by raading about them off-wiki, in a number of venues where they maintain that Misplaced Pages is a center of market manipulation and other forms of agita. These articles (and subjects) have received substantial publicity. They were one of the numerous topics in the Deep Capture website, which devoted substantial space to them, and they were also addressed in the Register in several articles. Surely there are other editors who were similarly drawn to Misplaced Pages, to this article and others, by reading about them elsewhere. It's quite that simple, and I hope that is a direct enough answer. I don't think there is anything sinister about that, or suspicious, though I am aware in general terms of the recent problems and of the socking that has taken place on both sides.--] (]) 00:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::''"Surely there are other editors who were similarly drawn to Misplaced Pages, to this article and others, by reading about them elsewhere."'' Actually, no, there weren't; certainly not in this particular combination. A few new editors showed up after naked short sales made headlines in mainstream news, but they didn't seem to have interest in the rest of the spectrum. In any case, much as I would like to agree with the idea of locking the page and having neutral administrators make edits agreed to by consensus, I am afraid it will be largely ineffective. There is a relatively small group of editors working on this article now, and a consensus generally would mean more than 3/5 editors wanting something in, with the other 2/5 saying it shouldn't be added. Despite significant efforts by several individuals to try to attract additional (and knowledgeable) editors to these articles, there is very little interest in them outside of a core group. The article probation is, I believe, important to providing a degree of control; however, given the real-world issues surrounding naked short selling, editors who work in the financial industry are probably constrained from editing that article, in particular. The other three articles specifically covered by the Arbcom probation have been much less problematic. Aside from addressing edit warring and forcing people to stick to the talk pages to work out improvements, I am hard pressed to see what full-protecting will do other than keeping the article in static form. ] (]) 00:27, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Note too this was three days after the ] article was moved into mainspace. ] '']'' 00:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::@Risker: that's remarkable. These articles have been publicized everywhere, not to recruit people to edit them but to publicize their supposed deficiencies. I disagree that people in the financial services industry cannot edit articles on financial topics, if there is no direct conflict. | |||
:::@Luke, my first edit was nine days after the Misplaced Pages Review article was moved to the website. I was not seeking to imply that I read about the Misplaced Pages Review article elsewhere; I read about WIkipedia Review itself elsewhere, as well as reading that magnificent website myself. Personally I think it is remarkable that Misplaced Pages has the forebearance to allow an article on a critical site. One correction: you or someone said that I had engaged in 'sophisticated formatting' in my first edit. Not correct. I ''moved'' a sophisticatedly formatted citation from one place to another within that page. I hope that my having done so does not detract from the fact that in my first edit I ''corrected a mistake.''--] (]) 00:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::Well, new editors would usually be expected to make a mistake with their first edit. That you did not is '''clearly suspicious'''. ] (]) 00:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::That is a remarkably unhelpful comment. ++]: ]/] 13:52, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Behavioral rather than technical solution?=== | |||
Perhaps instead of trying to find a technical solution to this problem, a behavioral one will be better. I suggest that any editor who revert wars, personalizes any content disputes, is unwilling to compromise, or personally attacks any of the other editors/admins involved with these articles (the four mentioned in the ArbCom ruling), be immediately and completely banned from participation in these four articles for a month, with subsequent penalties escalating from there. That should be enough to make sure that any interested editor behaves. By the way, I've noticed that since the banning of Mantanmoreland at least three of those articles are now much improved. ] (]) 03:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:This would almost work. The problem is in the loose definition of "edit war," and if we are still treating new users exactly like those who have been around. If I disagreed with an edit of Luke's and reverted it, for instance, I would be surprised if SirFozzie immediately reverted me, but I might say "ok, I guess I was wrong on that one." If SirFozzie tried a middle ground, I'd almost certainly go along. If new accounts can do the same thing, however, then there's more of a problem. That's what happened here: I disagreed with changes made by JohnnyB256, so I reverted them. Janeyryan then replaced JohnnyB256's edit with some minor adjustments. After explaining on the talk page, I reverted most of these edits again. Whoever is right in this case, I think Johnny will be able to get a hearing and show in talk if I'm disrupting the page. I can't create another account like this one, so if that happens, I'm done. If new accounts are on entirely equal footing, however, then sockpuppets can effectively overtake the page. | |||
:This isn't to disagree with your suggestion, but to say you probably still need something more to prevent that. From most restrictive to least, I see these options as 1.) Protect the page indefinitely, 2.) Restrict new editors to the talk page, 3.) Ask new editors not to revert, or 4.) Restrict editors who appear to be violating the terms or intent of the probation. ] (]) 04:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::When editors are put on article probation, aren't they allowed only one revert a day? Why not use that as the standard for what constitutes edit warring in those article? ] (]) 07:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::As I see it, this could still be gamed by socking; in fact, it may even increase the incentive to sock in the same way as strict voting, by taking out the judgment element. So, it could slow down revert wars in the hope that then more editors would pay attention, but I'm not sure it would solve this problem. ] (]) 07:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::I agree with Mackan79. As long as new and old accounts are treated equaly, there will still be a strong incentive to sock. I see Risker's point that locking the page will keep it in largely static form, but I think that's the core idea of SlimVirgin's suggestion. | |||
:::I dunno, it's not an easy problem. At the least we could try 1RR and hope that slowing reversion will provide enough time for more eyes, but I'm not confident it will be enough. ] '']'' 14:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Alarm bells?=== | |||
You know, when I see edit summaries like the one , all sort of alarm bells go off on my mind. Turns out that all the stuff removed by ] was a)weasel worded b)wrong c) in direct contradiction with d) already reverted once, told to go to the talk page, where his only discussion was placing in doubt the quality of the source and making a personal attack on the person that reverted him (Shapiro) before killing the sentence again | |||
See my repairs . | |||
Notice that JaneyRyan writes the edit summary as if it was an unsourced sentence, but he had previously seen the source for that very same sentence and he had only put in doubt the credentials of the source, not the sourced material itself | |||
(TL;DR paragraph) He has also tried to downplay the incidence and damage of NSS and puts in doubt that companies were bankrupted because of NSS (doh) and restoring outdated articles from 2006 and 2007 before NSS started being a visible problem and sort of misquoted sources when says "''For the market as a whole, however, it appears to be a large and growing problem (see chart). Hundreds of smaller firms claim to have fallen victim to naked short-sellers (though some clearly only say that to excuse underperformance)''" so it's perfectly correct to say that there is concern of faltering companies and not just a reaction to a crisis. | |||
Given that these edits show an attempt to whitewash NSS, given that he re-made his edits with only personal attacks as discussion, given Janeyryan's history (which I have only looked at superficially on the last two hours), given that it's not the first time that his edits try to whitewash NSS in some form, and given that the article probation says "to refrain from any form of advocacy concerning any external (...) allegation,". Can I has a topic ban on Janeyryan? (this is the correct noticeboard to ask for a probation-related topic ban, right?) | |||
For all that is worth, JohnnyB256 edit warred over the same sentence and source the day before . Maybe a coincidence, is it enough to has a checkuser too? --] (]) 23:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:I don't understand the train of thought int he first paragraph in the above post, except that it appears to ascribing malevolent motives and actdions to me where none exist. The sentence in the litigationj section that I rewrote I explained in the talk page, under 'litigation section (redux),' and it was agreed to by the other main editor on this article without any objection. I did not know that the language was taken from the Emswhiller article, and no one mentioned it. It is absolutely not true that I had 'previously seen the source of that sentence.' (the Emswhiller article, that is). As far as I could tell it was unsourced, and it was not supported by the law review article previously given as a source, for which the authorship was not properly stated. | |||
:The assertion that thousands of companies have been bankrupted by NSS is highly controversial and should be sourced. The article saying that companies say they have 'fallen victim' to NSS is not proper sourcing for a claim that companies have been actually bankrupted, or put out of business, by NSS. If there are any such companies, let see a few examples. One would suffice. | |||
:The articles from 2006 and 2007 were not 'outdated,' and represent a skeptical school of thought that should be in the article for purposes of balance. Attempting to balance this article is not 'advocacy.'--] (]) 01:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::The wikilawyering... it hurts my eyes >.< . You removed a sentence saying that illegal NSS had happened, which should have been sourcable from multiple sources.... | |||
::Articles from 2006 and 2007 are of course outdated. I remind of the The Register from October 2008 where it's explained how Byrne's denouncing of NSS was downplayed by manipulating the wikipedia article, which in turn made the media believe that the issue was not important, and the manipulation wasn't uncovered until mid 2006 and it wasn't linked to the DTCC until mid 2007. Knowing that, it's silly to take at face value the media statements on 2006 and 2007, as we know that they were manipulated. | |||
::Anyways, you make some good points: the number of bankrupted companies should be sourced. However, if multiple huge companies make public statements that their notable bankruptings were caused by NSS then that's a notable thing to add to the article (especially the ones claiming that it was the only causing factor) and then balanced with analysis of which were the real causes. | |||
::Seriously, your edits are just too sympathetic to NSS, to the point of whitewashing. If you are a legit account and not a sock, then you need to take more care to make neutral edits. --] (]) 15:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::P.D.:Notice that the reason that I "attack" article specifics is because I am comment on your edits, not on you, so I forcefully have to cite specific issues. Once I have looked at them, I can tell if the edits go in a certain way. --] (]) 20:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::I have a problem with the language 'there's no denying.' Surely there is a more neutral way of phrasing that, because there are indeed those who deny there is a problem, Jenkins for one. I doubt very much that he got that idea reading Misplaced Pages.--] (]) 20:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::Sorry, but content disputes are for the talk page of the article, not here. Please make this question again at ] --] (]) 00:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Missing the point=== | |||
Janeyryan: You are again arguing about article specifics, which has already been pointed out as not helpful, and is a diversionary tactic we have seen before. I agree with all the other editors here (that is, just about everyone) that you are exhibiting a lot of hallmarks of previously banned accounts that all ended up resolving to the same problematic person. There is a problem here that transcends this particular ID, because if we decide you too are Gary Weiss or whoever it was that was behind MM etc. (which I find behaviorally quite likely) then there will be a next, and a next and a next. A prohibition of a different nature entirely is needed. Without such, we will waste valuable time of otherwise productive editors, administrators, Checkusers, and arbitrators. (I looked at the CU log again to remind me, and a fair bit of time has been wasted looking into you by several CUs, to no avail) Remove the incentive to sock, and the socks will stop. Even if we posit that you are NOT a sock, your behavior is nevertheless problematic. Remove the incentive to get away with problematic behavior and the problematic behavior will stop. So I support the notion of developing and implementing a different sort of prohibition. The sooner the better. ++]: ]/] 13:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:'You are again arguing about article specifics, which has already been pointed out as not helpful.' That is ''really'' unfair and not accurate. I am responding, on point, to accusations made against my editing, as can be plainly seen from the exchange above. I strongly disagree with your saying that my 'behavior' has been more 'problematic' than that of other editors on that page, where surely I was not the first to revert. Even Luke, a regular editor of the page who brought this case here, has gone to great lengths to say that he is not singling me out and that he has agreed with some of my edits. --] (]) 14:20, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::This Janeyryan ID is an example of a class of problematic IDs. My beef is with the class which this ID is a member of. My commentary (in a new section that I started to break things out from being a response to any particular posting) is not a direct response to any one posting by this ID, but to the discussion on the page as a whole. I see a lot of diversionary activity, attacks, and the like. Not helpful. There is a real problem here and trying to divert this into a discussion of those pointing out the problem is not helpful. ++]: ]/] 14:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::This is amazing. Somebody attacks me on article specifics. I respond to that attack. You say, 'Don't argue about article specifics, it is unhelpful, and is a diversionary.' I respond that I had been attacked on article specifics. You respond again that my saying that makes me part of a 'class of problematic IDs.' I am at my wits end here. Am I just supposed to sit down and shut up and not respond to accusations against me?--] (]) 15:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::Feel free to respond to article specific concerns if you like, but realize that in doing so you are not addressing the major concern I have. Which is that you and several other users that frequent NSS and related articles are as likely as not to be socks of a long term problematic user. Given that that user has a track record of becoming increasingly hard to detect with each new sock, it is unfortunately irrelevant whether you technically correlate or not. You pass the ] test and rather than trying to cope with increasingly sophisticated socking (or what appears to be such, even if it is not) the users here addressing the problem (none of whom have the remarkably narrow focus you and the other users of concern do) are trying to come up with novel solutions. You're not helping that. I note that there seems to be a pretty wide consensus (absent yourself and a few other users most of whom pass the duct test) that there is a problem and something needs to be done. Hence, you're not addressing the main point. Which is an expected behaviour pattern. ++]: ]/] 20:03, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::::I have already addressed your main point, which is to say that I am not the sock of a banned user or any other user. Apart from that I answered directly what people say. I am not being 'diversionary' (changing the subject). Enric Naval advocated my topic ban, and I responded to that point. I don't see how I can just let such a remark go unresponded to, even if it does not address your concern. You do seem to have a similar concern, which is that my 'behavior' is 'problematic.' I addressed that. My purpose here is to respond to comments directed at me, or concerning me. I have done that, and accusing me of responding in a way that is somehow sinister or inappropriate, or exhibits a 'behaviour pattern' that is to be 'expected,' is not fair. Why is it objectionable for me to discuss article specifics but not when other users raise the subject, and in a way that mandates a response from me?--] (]) 20:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::A bare assertion that you are not a sock, given your behavior pattern and area of interest, is not sufficient for my satisfaction. <small>Sorry, I'm fresh out of ]<sup>TM</sup> in this matter.</small> The rest of it matters not. I would like to find a solution that allows even socks to edit constructively in this area, or not at all. What we got now... ain't working. ++]: ]/] 21:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Again, ''what'' behavior pattern? Every time I try to narrow this down to specifics, so that I can figure out what the problem is and respond, I am accused of being 'diversionary' or exhibiting 'an expected behavior pattern.' Apart from defending myself in this page and its calls for my banning from the article, I have tried to make the article on naked shorting more neutral and in that editing there seems to be agreement to my contributions, albeit grudging, even from editing accounts with which I have crossed swords. | |||
::::::::You made another comment earlier about other accounts involved in this discussion that 'pass the duct test.' Can you please elaborate? Are you claiming that I have brought socks into 'this' discussion on this page?--] (]) 21:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
The behavior problems are: | |||
#Attacking the motives of other editors, even when it is just content that is being discussed. Huldra raised this on Janeyryan's talk page . Cool hand luke has raised it again . I raised it , noting that you and JohnnyB256 were both doing this. | |||
#Other advocacy on the talk page, most noticabely in making off-topic jabs at Patrick Byrne. I noticed this coming from both Janeyryan ("Mr. Byrne is the dominant voice on this page, so please let's not be silly about this.") and JohnnyB256 ("I think what you have here is an article that while it pleases your contributor Mr. Byrne is misleading to readers and skewed.") ("Mr. Byrne no doubt is pleased that his pet crusade is given one-sided treatment, but you are doing a disservice to your readers.") | |||
#Editing of the article, for instance both Janeyryan and JohnnyB256 removing mention of the failure of Lehman Brothers without explanation, as well as other generally partisan edits. I note that the same also applied to JohnnyB256, possibly to a greater extent. ("tangential at best");(adding that a statement was "generally derided," a term (and tone) also favored by one of the banned accounts on this page.) | |||
As previously, the problem is not just one of these elements, but the three of them together; however, the three of them together is exactly what caused the problems last time. ] (]) 22:25, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
: 1. My language was more antagonistic than it should have been and I've apologized for that, but this was in the midst of a heated argument, in which similar rhetoric was being used by others. Huldra was talking about people being blocked it they disagree with the 'Gary Weiss-people' and I replied by pointing to the action that was taken against me when I disagred with the 'Patrick Byrne people.' It was intemperate and I shouldn't have said that. | |||
:2. At the time I made that remark, Mr. Byrne was using the talk page to engage in lengthy advocacy of his point of view of naked shorting, to the point of dominating the discussion by sheer length. So yes, I indicated that Mr. Byrne was dominating the page at the time. | |||
:3. In footnote 38, I reverted your revert of the language distinguishing between permanent and temporary regulations, and added back that the authors of a study on NSS were suing the securities industry. I think most of these changes were later placed back in the article and are there now. The sentence in the litigation section was agreed to by Luke, and were there until recently removed. All this was discussed in the talk section. | |||
:I agree that the Lehman issue was not discussed, so far as I can recall, and should have been discussed. | |||
:In footnote 39 I added material from the SEC website that had been in previous versions of the article, and were needed for balance. In footnote 40 I took out language not substantiated by the underlying source. In footnote 41 I added reaction to the emergency order from Barron's and the Economist. Since they're both still in the article, I presume they are not too horrible. In footnote 42 I reinstated two notable skeptical opinions now not given sufficient weight in this article, which had been removed by you in this edit without discussion.--] (]) 23:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::I think the edits speak for themselves, in terms of content, tone, and approach to other editors. We could discuss it in greater detail, but I don't think it would negate my point that 1.) you and JohnnyB256 are unnecessarily attacking the motives of other editors, 2.) you and JohnnyB256 are making advcocacy-style comments on the talk page, and 3.) you and JohnnyB256 are editing from a strong POV, and are making controversial edits. As I said, the combination of these issues is the one we had before, and I believe what the probation was intended to address. ] (]) 00:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::My edits do speak for themselves, in the sense that most of them are still reflected in the article. My POV is no more or less strong than that ave seen from from other editors of that article, and I think my talk page comments, even the ones cherry-picked and cited above, have not advocated a blessed thing. Most are in reaction to what others have posted. I agree that this discussion can go on endlessly and I will try not to prolong it more than is necessary.--] (]) 00:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::::That only show that your edits have not been reviewed throughly, and that I need to clear a bit of time on my schedule to go throught them :) --] (]) 17:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Alternate proposals=== | |||
The proposals below are my attempts to address the existing problems, but without completely upending how we do the ] on Misplaced Pages. An attempt to follow Jimbo's principle of applying ]. | |||
*Advocacy concerning outside disputes, controversies, proceedings and feuds, is unwelcome on Misplaced Pages | |||
**The ''appearance'' of advocacy is unacceptable on ] and related articles, and such edits are unwelcome, as are their editors, and editors are mandated to address such disruption, keeping in mind the judicious application of ]. | |||
*Combative edit summaries are unwelcome on Misplaced Pages | |||
**Edits with combative edit summaries on ] and related articles are considered to be disruptive on face, and will be removed. | |||
OR | |||
*] is protected indefinitely. | |||
*<nowiki>{{Editprotected}}</nowiki> should be used to request the insertion of ''non controversial material'' | |||
*] is created, and editors should feel free to use that space to work out their differences. ''Stable'' changes in the sandbox article may be migrated to the main article with the use of <nowiki>{{editprotected}}</nowiki>. | |||
I'm not overly pleased by either prospect, but I find it more workable than whats already been suggested (which I liberally stole from to create these proposals. Trout away.--] (]) 21:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Although I agree that these accounts have had some behavioral problems (see Mackan79's newest summary above), I think POV article editing is what really provides an incentive to sock. It's all well and good to say that advocacy should not be tolerated, that's theoretically the rule throughout wikipedia. Advocacy is a very subjective thing. Therefore, I think the best option is locking the page, even if that makes the article largely static for a time. ] '']'' 22:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Of course the problem with locking the page is that other editors with a passing interest in the subject, such as myself, can't easily add new material like I did recently about Japan's temporary ban on NSS. That's why I advocate banning accounts from the article and its talk page as soon as they cause any problems, such as in the examples Mackan points to above. But, locking the page should work in the meantime, I guess. ] (]) 01:07, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::I see that you folks are wrestling with, over and over, is the the unique style of Gary Weiss. I see from the comments above that everyone has caught on to the style. Once you know it, it stands out like a sore thumb, doesn't it. ] (]) 05:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
===Bogdanov Affair analogy=== | |||
Does anyone remember the ], from a few years ago? Massive sockpuppetry by two individuals that revolved around external events - it prompted an ] and much gnashing of the teeth. I propose a similar approach to ] here - any new user accounts or anonymous IPs which focus on ] and related articles shall be presumed to be parties to the external dispute. In summary, any new account or IP that shows up on these articles is automatically subject to the MM remedies - namely, a topic ban. It's pretty hard-line, but it seemed to work well in shutting down the Bogdanov idiocy. ] (]) 13:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
:Ah, this looks like a way better idea than full-protecting the page. --] (]) 14:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
*I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. ] (]) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I want to hear what they have to say, but I'm going to need a fairly convincing explanation as to how they're here to build an encyclopedia and not to POV-push men's rights activism content where it doesn't belong. The IDHT and spammy behavior and the BLP vios on top of that aren't super encouraging, either, but if they decide to communicate, I'm happy to reassess. ] (] • she/her) 22:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I'm not a big fan of it, it kinda goes against the "anyone can edit" part. Another problem I think, is the assumption that the sockpuppeteers and edit warriors will get bored, which I doubt. If you're willing to expend as much energy sockpuppeting as we know some have on this article, you're not going to get bored just because things get shut down for a while.--] (]) 19:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
*:I'd like to hear what they have to say, too, but I'm also not averse to letting this archive with no further action since the p-block is an indef. I've left another message at their talk. ] (]) 13:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::This is why I suggested something a little more narrow, to say that new accounts who want to become involved in these article can edit as they will, but basically should not do so in ways that can be exploited by sockpuppets. A one revert per day for new accounts could do this, possibly beginning at notification (any new account that started editing the page could be notified, although they probably wouldn't be until there was some reason). If this seems in any way unfair, it's based on the fact that while new accounts are easy to create and leave behind, long term editors are more accountable to various dispute resolution mechanisms. I'm not exactly sure what would be considered a new account, but possibly there could be a starting point. ] (]) 20:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
::(ed. conflict w/Mackan)Yes, it does abrogate ]. However, AGF is not a suicide pact. I've lurked throughout the MM RFC/Arbcom/CommunityBan process. I saw several gigabytes of drama, trolling, handwringing, bad faith, etc generated over editors who were obvious socks by any reasonable application of the ] test. I think the community is done assuming good faith on this topic. | |||
*<!-- | |||
::It also denies the "anyone can edit" philosophy. If that is the sole decision point, I don't see how permanent full protection is any better. Do you (the community) want a stable and neutral article with restrictions on who can edit it, or do you want to have an open access article and waste countless hours arguing with, reverting, and otherwise chasing down socks and vested interests? | |||
--> | |||
::To be completely arbitrary, let me suggest restricting editing privileges on ] and associated articles (as well as talk pages) to named accounts with a minimum of 1000 edits to unrelated topics. Put a banner on the talk pages similar to that on ]: "If you are new to editing at Misplaced Pages, do not start with this article, as you may be mistaken for an external participant editing with a sockpuppet account." Refrain from biting new editors to the article, but firmly point them in the direction of every other part of the encyclopedia. Topic ban them if they persist, and block them if they violate the topic ban. | |||
::Tznkai has a point, though - MM et al have not become bored with the article, and there is no reason to believe they will become bored with this topic in the foreseeable future. I suspect that a large amount of the gratification this individual receives from their activities is the reaction of the community, e.g. "dramahz" or "lulz" if you prefer. If we had a strict and enforceable rule against new and/or single-purpose accounts mucking about with these articles it would allow us to ] this person/people their jollies and would help motivate them towards more productive activities. ] (]) 21:25, 9 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::I think Skinwalker's proposal makes sense and should be implemented. ] (]) 02:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
==USERNAME== | |||
:::Skinwalker has convinced me with the ] rationale. I think he's right about Mantanmoreland intentionally fanning the flames of drama, and so his proposal addresses both the POV and lulz incentive to sockpuppet. I also think his view would have a lot of support here. Lar agreed that the community is out of good faith on this topic. I think Durova was proposing something similar. Maybe they could comment on Skinwalker's proposal? ] '']'' 02:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
:::Too much collateral damage and more than a little bitey. Besides, all we're creating is another hoop to go through which sockpuppeteers will be plenty good at doing: say making 1000 RC patrol changes with tools and then starting up POV warfare. I understand the concept, but this isn't a game changer.--] (]) 02:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Request concerning USERNAME=== | |||
I think this proposal is overly harsh. But, if we can't come up with something better (and as likely to be effective) I'm for it. What we got now ain't working. Further, if the cost per sock is 1000 RC vandalism reverts before they can POV push, that might be not too bad a deal! (can I get 10 car washes instead?) ++]: ]/] 04:48, 11 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Bamdad bahar}} 17:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Mmm... while we are talking about cost per sock... how about 1 ] per POV sock... ok ok kidding. I'll review this issue if/when I get time if it is not fixed soon. —— ''']]'''</font> 03:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|USERNAME}}<p>{{ds/log|USERNAME}}</p> | |||
Like someone above mentioned, locking the page(s), and maybe the talk page(s) for a long time might be the best way to go. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:That's an utterly unacceptable solution, mainly because the articles are still in a really terrible POV-CoI situation. --<span style="font-family:Georgia">] (])</span> 13:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::It stands a better chance of getting fixed if it's locked down for a while first than if things are left to continue as they are. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Update=== | |||
Has there been any movement or news on this?--] (]) 13:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:I think in general, the consensus is to go with the full protection with a sandbox for others to work on. ] (]) 20:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::I'd support that. ++]: ]/] 05:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:::Maybe next time this arises? I hesitate to oppose, but it seems the problem is currently subsided, and maybe there's sufficient desire to edit the page from all around that an impending full lock-down would quell problems. I do think there's a thin line in the way of the article devolving from its current state, though, and am not sure it will hold against much. ] (]) 05:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
<In editing Alexander's family and descendants' information, editor Prince Tehran keeps deleting edits and reverting to unfounded information. A new reference has been cited in Persian, and there has been considerable research conducted to confirm that Prince Alexander had two sons (not recorded in Georgian texts - for obvious political reasons). I am respectfully requesting that this editor(Prince Tehran) NOT be allowed to make these changes (or undo the edits). In a very practical sense, its a little ridiculous to suggest that Alexander had two children in his 50's but somehow did not have any when he was younger. The data from Iranian sources is correct. !--- Here and at the end, replace Prince Tehran with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
={{anchor|restoc}}Resolved= |
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Lemabeta
Lemabeta has acknowledged the warnings here to take more care and stay well clear of articles from which they are restricted from editing. Further violations are very likely to lead to sanctions, up to and including an indefinite block. Seraphimblade 12:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Lemabeta
I likely filed this improperly, but to sum it up they continue to make pages in a scope they were banned from. EF 20:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion concerning LemabetaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by LemabetaYeah, my bad. Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed" I recognize my mistake. --Lemabeta (talk) 20:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Lemabeta
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Boy shekhar
Blocked by Rosguill as a regular administrative action. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Boy shekhar
Discussion concerning Boy shekharStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Boy shekharStatement by VanamondeThis user hasn't edited for 4.5 years since they were TBANned, and none of their 31 edits show any ability to follow our PAGs. At the risk of sounding harsh, an extended AE discussion is a waste of time; a passing admin should indef them (I cannot, I am INVOLVED on most of the content they have edited). Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Result concerning Boy shekhar
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שלומית ליר
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning שלומית ליר
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Smallangryplanet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- שלומית ליר (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of how these edits violate it
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows:
- 2014 to 2016: no edits.
- 2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA.
- 2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace.
- 2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of Palestinian genocide accusation complaining about its content and calling it “blatant pro-Hamas propaganda”.
- 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October.
- Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits).
- In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day.
- Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the Battle of Sderot article where they changed the infobox picture with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and removed a template without providing a reason why.
- They also edited the Use of human shields by Hamas article, adding another image with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet another image with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content in the lead.
- they also voted in the second AfD for Calls for the destruction of Israel despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA.
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across this article authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full here. I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 2023-04-05 and re-iterated on 2024-11-25 (see the system log linked to above).
- Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 2024-12-18 by Femke (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a clear admission of gaming, implicit canvassing, creating and sharing lists of potential "most biased articles", and clearly calling for specific edits. They've also been cited as coordinating an off-wiki coordination hub for editing Misplaced Pages. If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is not outing) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. Smallangryplanet (talk) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notification diff
Discussion concerning שלומית ליר
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by שלומית ליר
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.שלומית ליר (talk) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was given clarification from an admin regarding my concerns and will now be drafting a response. Thank you for your patience. שלומית ליר (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Thebiguglyalien
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision was posted at ARBPIA5 and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "AE topic bans" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report
Statement by Selfstudier
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-03-29/Special report. Selfstudier (talk) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by starship.paint (2)
I would to like to raise this 9 December 2024 edit at Battle of Sderot, where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph (On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...
) that שלומית ליר added a reference to (archive 1 / archive 2) from the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation. The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same YouTube video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. starship.paint (talk / cont) 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by xDanielx
@Arcticocean: I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a pattern of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation.
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the UCoC policy, but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. this attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — xDanielx /C\ 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Hemiauchenia
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January permanent archive
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks:
If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on @Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Palestinian suicide attacks. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (archived). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Cdjp1
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about running interference on Misplaced Pages (archive) in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
It has been several days. Perhaps שלומית ליר could clarify whether their belief about the way Misplaced Pages works turned out to be a true belief or a false belief so that this report can progress. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning שלומית ליר
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like this is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of WP:CANVAS I would consider something more stringent. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I understand Vanamonde93's concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics#Guidance for editors places an obligation to Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the purposes of Misplaced Pages. The linked page provides that Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence. If an editor is only adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making only one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the whole article is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. arcticocean ■ 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- Adding a citation for a claim that Hamas terrorists shot dead a group of Israeli tourists.
- Replacing map with a photograph of victims of violence.
- Removing an outdated maintenance tag which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, Massacre of pensioners, and again.
- Adding specification to claims of the use of human shield (specifying who has made the claims), therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; adding another reference to that claim; and adding another.
- Adding an image contentiously captioned 'Weapons Found in a Mosque', then again Rockets hidden at a house, both to the first line of the article.
- Adding, without sufficient context, an assertion that a philosopher has determined that one side of the conflict is culpable and expanding other coverage of culpability of that side.
- On the talk pages, there has been a tinge of failure to AGF although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments.
- There are then edits to LGBTQ rights in the State of Palestine: inserting a reference to execution into the first sentence of the lead; adding more references to news coverage of executions of LGBT+ people by the other side of the conflict. At Houthi movement, there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, to add references to terrorist attacks (with follow-up).
- Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. arcticocean ■ 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @XDanielx: Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to WP:NPOV. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken as a whole the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the percentage of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about Misplaced Pages:Advocacy. arcticocean ■ 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- The offwiki canvassing is a problem...שלומית ליר, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware WP:canvassing is not allowed? Valereee (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- For transparency, שלומית ליר reached out to me, and I explained multiple policy and advised her to go ahead and respond here without waiting for individual feedback from her email to arbcom, which may or may not happen. Valereee (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take it that per Barkeep49's brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (Special:Diff/1269845558), and then restoration of the same (Special:Diff/1269848988), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? signed, Rosguill 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Luganchanka
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Luganchanka
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Luganchanka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 19:55, 12 January 2025 Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
18:28, 12 January 2025 BLP CTOP warning given
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Scott_Ritter_Biography_-_Noncompliance_with_MOS_and_BLP_Guidelines. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by @NatGertler: , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence, but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Luganchanka
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Luganchanka
The intro on the Scott Ritter page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I WP: assume good faith, it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.Luganchanka (talk) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Please see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior wikipedia editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.Luganchanka (talk) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you to @Valereee and @Red-tailed hawk for your feedback. If you see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, discussions -
14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"
andFirst sentence
. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.Luganchanka (talk) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for this (nest), I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!Luganchanka (talk) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) (moved from admin-only section — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))
- As per Rosguill's comments:
"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle
Luganchanka (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by NatGertler
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per WP:RSP), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Luganchanka
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Luganchanka: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at WP:AN3.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, edit-warring to remove negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe Rosguillwhiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. Valereee (talk) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, this one was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a WP:CIR issue.
- But even if you had been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ever edit war over. Valereee (talk) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from Scott Ritter seems appropriate. signed, Rosguill 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
whitewash
before writing this off as time-served. signed, Rosguill 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
masturbated and ejaculated on camera
, saying onlygraphic sex act
. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. signed, Rosguill 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing Special:Diff/1269853673 here and Special:Diff/1269853955, Special:Diff/1269845272 at Talk:Scott Ritter, I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. signed, Rosguill 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka:
- WP:BLPPRIMARY calls upon users to
not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person
. There are some narrow exceptions (whenprimary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source
), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal at best under our biographies of living persons policy. - — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
- @Luganchanka: Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say
there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior wikipedia editors
regarding the lead? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- @Luganchanka and Hemiauchenia:
- It does seem that the discussion at Talk:Scott Ritter#First sentence does indicate some support for that language i.e. (
convicted child sex offender
) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, whileThere has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences
is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. - That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was notification about a BLPN discussion on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got
two different forums with two different answerstwo different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. - Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. This NY Times piece, which is cited in the body of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter
was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges
in the state of PA (the PA statute is here; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it asan offense of the same grade and degree
as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding mens rea and actus reus here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is wise or optimal to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. - Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward.
- In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A Request for Comment on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here.
- — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? Valereee (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka has been blocked for a week by User:ScottishFinnishRadish for BLP violations and personal attacks. Liz 18:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- With this in mind, I think we should wait to hear from RTH but otherwise expect to move forward to an indef p-block on top of SFR's stopgap action, as we haven't seen anything coming close to an adequate recognition of the relevant policies and practices from Luganchanka and after several second chances and nudges, I don't see reason to expect them to change course. signed, Rosguill 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
BabbleOnto
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning BabbleOnto
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- ජපස (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- BabbleOnto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/COVID-19#Contentious_topic_designation
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 11 January 2025 Sealioning
- 11 January 2025 Refusal to get the message
- 11 January 2025 Personalizing an argument.
- 11 January 2025 Railroading the discussion.
This is all after I warned them about WP:AE sanctions, and they dismissed my warning out of hand. Very nearly a WP:SPA on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate tendetiousness. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 9 Dec 2024 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is a WP:SPA with respect to the topic and their disruption surrounding it has been subject to at least one WP:FTN thread that remains active: Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Gain_of_function_research. The hope was that they would WP:DROPTHESTICK and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. jps (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning BabbleOnto
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by BabbleOnto
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint is involved in the content disputes at issue. They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on my talk page and others' talk pages for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the first person who would they would get banned from this topic for disagreeing with them.
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing.
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've admitted when I was wrong, I've dropped arguments that were clarified to be wrong, I've tried to find compromise, at times begging people to provide their sources and work together. And when those editors refused to, I didn't provoke any further.
I now address the specific edits in the complaint:
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates.
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?"
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of having a basic reading comprehension problem, perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too.
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here.
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that I'm not working with others. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Edited. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, the sub-header for this section says that only admins can edit this section, I didn't realize I was allowed to reply here.
- Yes, I will. I intend on taking an extended break from wikipedia, as well. BabbleOnto (talk) 17:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC) Moved from uninvolved admin section; you can answer questions, make comments, discuss, but all your input needs to be in your own section. Valereee (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.
- What I meant was that I'm willing to respect the consensus and not make any further edits or argue any more contrary to what the consensus decided. It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, then there's nothing I can do. I still do disagree with the consensus's result. Nonetheless, I'm not going to edit or argue further, I'll respect it as a legitimate.
Statement by ProcrastinatingReader
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources.
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ad nauseam. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Newimpartial
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, as revised.
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I misquoted the article
. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends here. Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of WP:CPUSH with pure WP:IDONTHEARTHAT.
2. On this they say, now, that The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.
This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and WP:IDHT.
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say
and You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said
- all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to a basic failure in reading comprehension
two hours later. This seems like a time travel paradox.
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I said a material lie
, and that I lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying
and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But WP:IDHT again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do.
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. Newimpartial (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....
Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Valereee, this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note: IntrepidContributor was just TBanned from the topic of COVID-19 and indef blocked until the accusations of off-wiki coordination made by them at ANI are retracted. Those accusations are like their suggestion made in their statement in this filing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by JoelleJay
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like this doesn't disrupt things even more? JoelleJay (talk) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by IntrepidContributor
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki ().
One need only cross-reference names from Feb 2021 RfC, checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first.
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes.
IntrepidContributor (talk) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by TarnishedPath
Please see this edit where BabbleOnto edited Gain of function research restoring previously reverted content and WP:POVPUSH using a shit source after they'd been told by multiple other editors in discussions here and here that the source was shit. Notably in the edit summary they wrote "Read discussion page. Manual revert. No serious challenge has been made to these changes. Methinks an admin needs to get involved...
" despite them being in a WP:1AM situation. If a clue is not gotten by the editor fast I'd suggest TBANs from both COVID and AP2 is warranted in order to cease their disruption. TarnishedPath 04:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting the editor's continued behaviour at Talk:Gain-of-function research. Refer to Special:Diff/1270316266. TarnishedPath 01:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by berchanhimez
This user was given no less than 4 chances on the talk page to stop talking about bans/other editors and start talking about the content. They have continued crying about how they're scared of getting banned... yet they continue blabbing about other editors getting banned for their bad behavior rather than refocusing on the content as requested. At a minimum a partial block from the talk page(s) in question is warranted, and it would be beneficial for a topic ban from the origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Result concerning BabbleOnto
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- BabbleOnto, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly
BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible
, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. signed, Rosguill 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Valereee in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. signed, Rosguill 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. BabbleOnto, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction.
- Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you.
- As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors. Valereee (talk) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Tangential |
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- BabbleOnto, are you planning to answer my questions above? Do you think you're able/willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you? Are you able/willing to stop insisting everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers? Valereee (talk) 13:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- BabbleOnto's response understanding this as a suggestion to take a break from Misplaced Pages as a whole isn't quite what I was hoping to see. signed, Rosguill 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BabbleOnto, an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.
- @Rosguill, I'd support a tban, but is AP2 enough? It seems like COVID and fringe science need to be included? Valereee (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- AP2 + COVID? I see the same behavior at the Brian Thompson article and Havana Syndrome, so COVID alone doesn't seem adequate. Oddly, the intersection of "medicine and politics" would appear to cover all affected topics but maybe that's too bespoke? signed, Rosguill 17:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Marlarkey
Marlarkey p-blocked from Declaration of war and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA signed, Rosguill 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Marlarkey
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a WP:CIR-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion concerning MarlarkeyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MarlarkeyWeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. WeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." 1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article 2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article 3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page. GRRRRRRrrr Marlarkey (talk) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to wikipedia then please just say so. GRRR Marlarkey (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Result concerning Marlarkey
Marlarkey, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. signed, Rosguill 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from Declaration of war (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. signed, Rosguill 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC
|
DanielVizago
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning DanielVizago
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Schazjmd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- DanielVizago (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_and_sexuality#Final_decision
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 29 Dec 2024 Added Category:Misandry to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description,
This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.
); - 4 Jan 2025 and 5 Jan 2025 Removing sourced content from Misogyny that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny;
- 5 Jan 2025 Changing content in Male privilege to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary
rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources
); - 13 Jan 2025 Added "bimisandry" to Biphobia, citing 4 sources, none of which include that term;
- 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding Category:Female rapists with piped names to unrelated articles, then added those names directly to the category page;
- 14 Jan 2025 restored the "bimisandry" edit to Biphobia, then added a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page;
- 14 Jan 2025 (after final warning) adds ] and ] to Hurtcore; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of
articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- None
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- I alerted them on 28 Dec 2024
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Above diffs are all edits after the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied Category:Misandry to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to Biphobia started 16 Dec 2024. On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to Supremacism about misandry, which another editor reverted with edit summary remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt
. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors.
Before the level 4 warning, I tried guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. Schazjmd (talk) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning DanielVizago
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by DanielVizago
Statement by caeciliusinhorto
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to Category:Female rapists.
- Possibly the worst edit, categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. WP:BLPCRIMINAL)
- This edit adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of sexual activity with a minor
- this and this edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. WP:CATV)
Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Simonm223
Might be wise, as long as doing so wouldn't interfere with evidence, to get a revision deletion on some of the diffs presented above that make unfounded statements about BLPs. Simonm223 (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning DanielVizago
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. Valereee (talk) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I want to hear what they have to say, but I'm going to need a fairly convincing explanation as to how they're here to build an encyclopedia and not to POV-push men's rights activism content where it doesn't belong. The IDHT and spammy behavior and the BLP vios on top of that aren't super encouraging, either, but if they decide to communicate, I'm happy to reassess. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to hear what they have to say, too, but I'm also not averse to letting this archive with no further action since the p-block is an indef. I've left another message at their talk. Valereee (talk) 13:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
USERNAME
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
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Request concerning USERNAME
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Bamdad bahar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- USERNAME (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
<In editing Alexander's family and descendants' information, editor Prince Tehran keeps deleting edits and reverting to unfounded information. A new reference has been cited in Persian, and there has been considerable research conducted to confirm that Prince Alexander had two sons (not recorded in Georgian texts - for obvious political reasons). I am respectfully requesting that this editor(Prince Tehran) NOT be allowed to make these changes (or undo the edits). In a very practical sense, its a little ridiculous to suggest that Alexander had two children in his 50's but somehow did not have any when he was younger. The data from Iranian sources is correct. !--- Here and at the end, replace Prince Tehran with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->