| Revision as of 13:30, 12 January 2008 editNaLaochra (talk | contribs)284 edits →No crime section at all: new section← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 21:23, 29 February 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,956,641 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 3 WikiProject templates. Remove 1 deprecated parameter: importance.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion |
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<strike>Isnt this a very narrow minded look at Limerick? |
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Shouldn't we add something insightful about Limericks culture. |
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Or how about its booming industrial aspects? |
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If anyone wants to discuss it feel free to do so - 14:55, 31/1/04 ]</strike> |
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<strike>The article about "Limerick (city)" should be listed under "Limerick (city)" and "Limerick" should redirect to "Limerick (disambiguation)" - Some jackass kept undoing my correction.{{unsigned|7hobo}}</strike> |
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|archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}} |
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== Move request? == |
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I'd like to move "Limerick, Ireland" to "Limerick City". Any objections? |
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] 11:24, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) |
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:Its a good idea, but all links should/would have to be moved as well to the new page, also it might be useful considering ]? ] 12:34, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) |
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}} |
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{{old move | date = January 2010| from = Limerick | destination = Limerick (city) | result = no consensus | link = Talk:Limerick/Archive 1#Requested move 2010}} |
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:Thanks for that Link, didn't know about it. Seems to deal with US cities though, which are a special case as there are so many with identical names. Among the Irish city pages there seems to be no convention: 'Dublin', 'Galway', 'Cork (City)', 'Waterford City'... There are already redirect pages called 'Limerick City' and 'Limerick (City)'. I propose I move the text here to 'Limerick City' and make 'Limerick, Ireland' into a redirect. |
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{{archives|auto=yes|search=yes|bot=MiszaBot|age=1|units=year|index=/Archive index}} |
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{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes }} |
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:'Limerick, Ireland' has 88 pages linked to it, 'Limerick (City)' has one and 'Limerick City' has 9. If I change the most important of the 88 to point to 'Limerick City', I'd say others will fix the remaining links over time. ] 13:02, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) |
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::I think this is probably a good opportunity to acheive consistency. ] and ] are of course fine where they are. So, remaining is Limerick, Cork and Waterford. The first two are also terms in general use, requiring one of the following - |
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::#] & ] |
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::#'''] & ]''' |
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::#] & ] |
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::I suggest no. 2 as the best option. |
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::As regards ] - well, the term is used for ] and ], but probably rather than finding a disambig at Waterford one should have either the County or the City, with a disambig message at top. I suggest giving the City prominance. See ] (technically a city). This should also be standardised for Irish town/cities with matching county names. I suggest that cities be given prominence over counties, but we give counties prominence over towns? So county names redirect to the county, not the town of that name. |
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::In summary - |
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::*I suggest no change for ], ]. |
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::*Move ] to ] and ] to ]. |
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::*''Just checked, ] redirects to ] which is sensible (it draws attention to the fact Waterford is somewhat ambiguous - though allows its most common usage).'' |
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::*] is good where it is, (moving to ] would look odd, while ] is incorrect). |
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::*Other county towns should be at for example ], with ] being redirected to ] rather than just presenting a disambig page. In this instance, the above example would need changed from its current situation (town page AT Kildare). |
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::Whew, I may have overdone the explanation there a bit! |
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::] 16:40, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) |
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:::You make a good arguement. I agree, lets do it. ] 17:06, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) |
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The article about "Limerick (city)" should be listed under "Limerick (city)" and "Limerick" should redirect to "Limerick (disambiguation)" - Some jackass kept undoing my correction.{{unsigned|7hobo}} |
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:Hi 7hobo. I think calling someone a jackass because the don't let you have your way is not really reasonable. There are many reasons why it is better to leave Limerick here and not move it to ]. Moving pages around at a whim is not really on. You should make an argument as to why it should move and others will counter with their own reasons. You don't seem to have given any reasons for the move, except that you think it a good idea. Just as it is easy for you to move a page, its just as easy for someone else to move it back. And finally, can you please sign your posts (add <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> at the end). Thanks. ] 07:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC) |
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::Limerick should definitely take you to either the disambiguation page or to the Limerick (poetry) page. I'm trying to find out how many lines are in a limerick and get a page about some town in Ireland? When someone types in limerick, I doubt they are curious about the town, or even know it exists. Hobo7 or someone else who knows how to do this should take care of it. About Frelke's comments: 1. I don't think you understood what hobo7 was saying should be linked where. 2. Someone who undoes someone else's corrections without discussing it here IS a jackass. That's covered under ]. ] 05:40, 21 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:::I'd be happy with "Limerick City", but "Limerick (City)" is just stupid. I don't see the article "New York (City)", but there is "New York City". ... ] 18:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Celtic Tiger== |
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I'd like to add some stuff on the darker side of Limerick: the high unemployment areas like Moyross, Southhill, etc. Can anyone help with this? Info on unemployment rates, violent crime, etc would be interesting. I'd like to show that the 'Tiger' didn't reach everyone. Also the regional hospital isn't exactly up to EU standards. Something on that would be good too. |
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] 13:54, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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You obviously have not seen Limerick Regional Hospital lately. I too remember when it was a complete dump. But you wouldn't recognise the place today. Its one of the nicest hospitals i've ever seen ( and i've seen a lot being a medical student) and has nearly quadrupled in size. Also, its name is due to change shortly to University Hospital, Limerick to reflect its new role as the main teaching hospital of the new post-graduate medical school due to open in 2006. |
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==Crime== |
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There should be a crime section in this... Anybody have ideas how to go about it? |
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] 16:39, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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I agree, the page reads too much like a tourist brochure |
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There was a book called "Family Feud: Gangland Limerick Exposed" by Anthony Galvin published in 2003 which details some of the infamous ongoing crime stories from Limerick, the Kelly and McCarthy families feature strongly. Maybe this should be mentioned along with the "Stab City" nickname that the city has had. |
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Hey there everyone. I have added quite a detailed paragraph on Limerick's crime situation past and present to the page. It mainly focuses on the presses view on the city and how the city is been slated by the press, which indeed is the case. If anyone would like to edit or add something on to it, feel free to do so. |
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== Page move == |
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]'s move from ] to ] was cut-and-paste, not preserving the page history of the former. I've merged the two here at ] now, but unfortunately the talk page history is a bit garbled. I had to manually restore comments by ] from post-page move. The main article is fine I believe. |
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] <font size=+1 style="color:green;">♣</font> ] 13:19, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC) |
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== Population == |
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I've inserted a population figure in the text, including the suburbs -- Limerick's city council area represents an unusually small proportion of the overall urban area, with only 54,023. There are 29,124 in suburbs in Co Limerick and 3,851 in suburbs in Co Clare. This is from the 2002 census, vol 1 table 5. |
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] 15:57, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC) |
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The point about Limerick City's "real" and "apparent" population is interesting. Officially the population is put at 54,023. This means that Limerick ranks as the Republic's 4th largest city (After Dublin, Cork and Galway). In reality, Limerick is the 3rd largest city with a population of 80,000 plus. The reason for the discrepency is Limerick city's old borough boundaries. These were set decades ago and have not changed in line with the city's expansion through the 20th century. The large and populous suburbs of Dooradoyle, Raheen, Castletroy, Monaleen and several others are not part of the city borough but are actually under the jurisdiction of the county council. Ireland's other cities have all had their borough boundaries expanded in keeping with increasing urbanisation. Not so in Limerick. This is partly to do with opposition from Co. Clare against Clare land being ceeded to Limerick. It also means that Limerick attracts lower state investment per capita, and is often overlooked in national development planning with Galway being favoured as the third most important urban hub. |
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== Eamon de Valera == |
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Eamon de Valera was born in New York and grew up in Bruff, County Limerick. His name should be removed because the article deals with Limerick City |
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:You're right, ], and you should correct it. The rule on Misplaced Pages is ] in correcting mistakes and editing. But be sure to sign your comments! This is done by putting <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Also, You might be interested in this: ]. Good work on ], by the way. ] 16:01, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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: Nitpick: he grew up in Bruree, Co Limerick. ] 10:28, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC) |
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And he went to school in the Christian Brothers School, Charleville, Co. Cork. I think i may have missed the point... |
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== Removal of '''The Arts''' == |
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I disagree with the removal of this section: |
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:Several city center pubs venues, such as ''Dolan's Warehouse'', ''The Highstool'', ''The Vintage Club'' and ''Riddlers'' host regular live music by local groups. An interesting variation on this is '''' with a "" on Wednesdays, featuring readings by both local and international poets. |
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I think it adds body and interest to the article. Although, "''it's not a travel article''", we do need current and cultural information. ] 16:05, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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I removed it coz of a comment in the 'is this your first page?' guidelines thing along the lines of 'we don't want to hear about the price of coffee in yer favourite café on the Champe Elyssé'; just thought it veered a bit too close to that - ] |
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:How about we include the poetry thing only? Its unusual. ] 22:03, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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As a Limerick city poet, i must object to only including poetry. All art forms stem from the desire to understand life through creativity. The HighStool was closed down over a year ago. The Aspersion Music Collective after nearly 6years of volunteering to run gigs (from Fugazi to the Yeah Yeah Yeahs)is out of steam. Limerick city needs to rejuvenate its creative culture, more funding in the work of actors, musicians, writers, painters etc. Let's reclaim our crown of glory. |
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:Great speach - but this is an encyclopedia. Try the forum if you want to air your views. ] 11:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC) |
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== EU law on City Size? == |
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:"''According to EU Law'' A City must have at least 50,000 people." |
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Really? I never heard about this. And the 8,591 people of city of ], the 44,594 people of ] city and the 30,000 people of ] will be greatly shocked also. Can we have a source for this EU law please? ] 10:54, 20 May 2005 (UTC) |
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Are there really only 8,591 people in Kilkenny? And is it really, then, a city? If so then Dundalk, Drogheda, Ennis, Clonmel, Wexford, Tralee, Castlebar, Athlone etc etc must all be cities since their populations exceed this number. |
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: Kilkenny is a city in name only (it has a charter as well) - it does not have administrative status on the same level of other Irish cities and is for all intents a borough. Population does not, in itself, make any place a city. ] 18:36, 22 July 2005 (UTC) |
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== Proposed section: Layout == |
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The article lacks a map of the city and a description of the layout. I propose we add a section on this. ] 20:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC) |
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---- |
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:Over the centuries the city's focus has moved from the Castle and English Town on King's Island, across the Abbey River to Irish Town and now to the 18th century grid streets of Newtown Perry. The city center is now the meeting point of the four streets of William's St, ], ] and Patrick's St. |
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== What is Limerick chiefly renowned for == |
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I don't agree that Limerick is "chiefly renowned for its rugby heritage" |
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I find the use of the word "chiefly" gives the impression that when one thinks of Limerick one also thinks of rugby, and also having this sentence in the opening paragraph adds to this emphasis. While I acknowledge that Limerick has a very strong rugby heritage this is by no means what it is chiefly renowned for. I find this to be a biased view of the city. |
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Having said all that I am not sure what Limerick is chiefly renowned for. Perhaps others will have an opinion on this? |
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I argee its pov i'd think hurling before i thought rubgy ,removed |
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(] 22:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)) |
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== ] == |
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There is no logical reason why a merge notice to ] should be placed on top of ]. The Stab City 'article' is little more than a redirect and in total contains the following text: |
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:'''''Stab City''' is a reference to the city of ] in ]. In the late 90's a number of gangland feuds broke out in the city and the national press invented the term. Statistically, there are no more stabbings in Limerick and any other Irish city.'' |
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If anybody feels that is nugget of information should be added to the Limerick article, they can add it in two seconds. Merge notices are for situations when two long and complex articles need to be merged. Here it is a quick decision. Go for it.] 18:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC) |
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*Dictionary it, or delete it? ] 19:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC) |
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*Merge notices are for where an editor has suggested a merge, no more and no less. Moreover, you appear to have a broken sense of direction. The notice is a {{mergefrom}} not a {{mergeto}}. Both articles discuss the city of Limerick. We don't have ] about the same thing here. However, the reason that I ''suggested'' the merge, rather than outright did it, is that clearly the claim that Limerick is known as "Stab City" for the reasons stated needs to be checked. The article, like so many such articles, doesn't cite any sources. With the notice, other editors will come to the discussion, and perhaps they may attempt to verify the article to be merged and say "That's a load of old baloney! Limerick isn't known as Stab City at all." and instead decide that rather than a merger, an outright deletion of ] for being unverifiable is called for. Or, on the other hand, they may come up with some sources to cite. Either way achieves a better result than just doing the merger. ] 19:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC) |
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**The merge notice is not intended to draw attention to stubs needing work. You could have posted a note on this talk page. Limerick is known as 'Stab City' (or used to be a few years ago anyway) but it is derogatory. There are seperate articles for city nicknames - see ]. Googling '"Stab City" -Limerick' turns up 1000 sites, including a US band. So ] could be perhaps a disambig. ] 21:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC) |
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***It wasn't a stub needing work. It was, and is, a ], plain and simple. Both articles are about the city. I've pointed this out several times, now. I've also pointed out that the parallel with ] is a clearly false one. ] 23:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC) |
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***You haven't explained why it is 'clearly' false. The ] is a nickname for New York and contains the history of the usage of that name. "Stab City" is a nickname infrequently used to refer to Limerick in a derogatory way. The "Stab City" article has almost no content, but could be expanded to be a history of the usage of the name. I don't have the time or interest to do this. Another example is ] which redirects to ], or ] which redirects to ]. If ] was an article containing one sentence: "City of Light usually refers to ]." would you put a merge note on Paris too? ] 17:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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****If it were as superficially bogus as "stab city" was: Yes, of course. This process is known as "asking for the opinions of other editors". It is a useful tool in some circumstances. Notice that it works. Two editors have already given different opinions here, and a third is forming an opinion. ] 19:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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*****It is possible to ask without adding a merge notice. As you seem to agree that the article is potentially bogus, and that we are now having a discussion about it, I have removed the merge notice. ] 22:30, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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******I've restored it. The notice is there not just to get your attention alone, and I wrote "as superficially bogus as 'stab city' was". ] 23:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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*******Uncle G, How would you like to progress with this dispute? ] 01:42, 3 December 2005 (UTC) |
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********Uncle G has not replied for 5 days. I have added a one line of text to the article and have removed the merge notice. ] 12:21, 7 December 2005 (UTC) |
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** The ] article is inaccurate in any case - the nickname dates back to well before the late 1990s and first arose after an incident in which an Argentinean tourist was stabbed. I think this was in the mid 1980s. I haven't edited the ] article as I'm undecided as to whether it's worth having. --] 21:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC) |
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*Merge it now - stab city is unfortunately associated with Limerick but it being regrettable is not an excuse to suppress it, but it certainly does not need a separate article. |
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* I agree, '''merge''' it now. I can't see a realistic prospect for ] to become a full article. I think there's a case for a ] article, but not for one on this piece of terminology. --] 08:33, 3 December 2005 (UTC) |
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** The ] article is inaccurate in any case - the nickname dates back to well before the late 1990s and first arose after an incident in which a Libyan Aircraft Mechanic was stabbed to death in O'Connell Street (Main Street Limerick) with a screwdriver one night . This was in the mid 1980s Circa 1984 . The stab city stub should be left as is, separate from the Limerick article but with its own internal link to Limerick . |
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Perhaps we can finally remove the "stab city" epithet from Limerick. Fatal stabbing figures for 2006-2007 (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/1030/1193444138378.html) surely illustrate fairly conclusively that this epithet is not supported by the facts (in the last year, Dublin had 10 fatal stabbings, County Tipperary 6!,Cork 2, Limerick precisely 1). Or does Misplaced Pages prefer to take the tabloid route and print sensational stories rather than accurate factual ones? ] 23:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)] |
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:wikipedia relies on notability and verifiability; ergo, if limerick is or has been named stab city in the media, this probably deserves a mention in the article. --] 00:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==List of Limerick people== |
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I propose to move the list of people on the page to ]. Any comment or dissent? ] 13:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:Good idea, should look at doing the same in other articles, where it would be warented, (i.e. size of list, or size of articles). --] | ] 06:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC) |
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== Edits by 72.64.142.141 == |
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This IP made a lot of recent edits to this article. A lot of it was POV--s/he certainly dislikes the city. The gang information might be usable, however. I'll leave it up to someone who knows more about this subject to add it back in, if desired. --]]] <sup>]</sup> 16:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC) |
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== City population and ranking == |
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The 2006 census shows the population of Limerick City to be 52,560 vs. Galway City's 71,983, Cork City's 119,143, and Dublin City's 505,739. That makes Limerick City the 4th largest city in the Republic after Dublin, Cork, and Galway. That is the official ranking of the census office and should be reflected in the narrative about relative population size and ranking. It's difficult to compare "urban areas" including their suburbs, some of which may really be towns in their own right. Best to go with the government's official census data to avoid confusion. |
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:Agreed that official census data on ''the city'' should be the basis. ] 16:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC) |
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::Perhaps, but Limerick suburbs outside the city boundary are not towns in their own right. Rather they are part of a larger, interconnected and interdependent urban area. The figure for the population of limerick city proper is true, but the fact that it is part of a larger urban area should be acknowleged. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 17:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small> |
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Currently the information on population is very misleading: |
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<blockquote> |
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The population of Limerick city and the immediate urban area (environs/suburbs) is 90,778 (based on the 2006 census carried out by the CSO), of which 52,560 live within the city limits and 38,218 live in the city's immediate environs in both County Limerick and County Clare (see page 171). |
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</blockquote> |
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Either the figure should correspond to the CSO city figure, or the precise "environs/suburbs" used to find the extra 18,218 bodies are spelled out. The referenced document does not have a page 171 (should it be page 60?). And the footnote to look at Meelick and Limerick Rural Area isn't sufficiently complete: there is no "Limerick rural area". There is a Limerick No. 1 rural area, a Limerick North Rural and a Limerick South Rural. |
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The mess is further compounded by having a different figure of 91,000 in the first paragraph. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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==Crime== |
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The Guardian article does not have supporting statistics |
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The Garda Siochana Annual report does not show Knife statistics. |
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The term is not factual and should be removed. |
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I have given the crime statistics for all the Dublin Garda regions |
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(1) Crime |
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The Garda Siochana annual reports for the years 1998 to 2005 are contained on the Garda website www.garda.ie and have statistics for the 25 Garda Regions |
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(2) There annual reports contain no statistics for stabbings, |
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The term Stab City should be deleted as it is not factual as the number |
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of stabbings is not contained in the Garda Annual reports. |
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The term Stab City is insulting to Limerick People or Persons living in Limerick |
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(3) The average crimes per 1000 population for the 8 years 1998-2005 are: |
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Dublin North Central 135.37 crimes per 1000 (highest in Ireland) |
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Dublin South Central 107.10 crimes per 1000 |
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Dublin Western 29.15 crimes per 1000 |
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Dublin Southern 28.75 crimes per 1000 |
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Dublin Eastern 26.16 crimes per 1000 |
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Dublin Northern 23.67 crimes per 1000 |
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Cork City 26.45 crimes per 1000 (highest outside of Dublin) |
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Average for Ireland (ROI) 24.63 crimes per 1000 |
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Limerick 23.75 crimes per 1000 (below national average) {{unsigned|BIARRITZ}} |
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:After reading today's news about the children being set alight in Moyross , I decided to pop by to see what wikipedia has to say about Limerick's crime stats. I am actually born in Limerick - St. Munchin's (and am completly ashamed of it. |
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:I find it bizzare that there is opposition to referring it to Stab City or denying that there is viscious crime in Limerick. I don't think most sensible foreign people would dream of walking Limerick at night as you'd find in Dublin city center for example. While the Garda stats may show lower rates, the newspapers report the warfare there in quite detail. Limerick IS Stab City... even if they've gone onto guns and petrol bombs. |
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:Also, on the stats, are they based on the city or county? |
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:As pointed out the official city boundary does not include a sizeable sections of the city... |
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:--] 13:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::Although user BIARRITZ is trying to be helpful by providing an analysis of crime statistics over the past 8 years to make a point, analysis of primary source data is not allowed on Misplaced Pages (] and ]. What is encouraged is quoting from other people's published analysis. So if we can find some academic papers on crime levels in Limerick this would be great. ] 14:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC) |
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*The term "Stab City" is factual, it is a well-known nickname for Limerick, and it's mentioned in the Guardian article I linked. Dublin North Central is not a city, it's a small part of a city. It doesn't matter if the name is insulting, that doesn't disqualify it from Misplaced Pages. ] 18:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC) |
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**Agree - "Stab City" is of sufficent common knowledge to merit its inclusion. ] 19:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC) |
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**Agree - There are multiple references to the term 'stab city' from every major media outlet in the country including RTE and the Limerick Post That said, I have only seen the term used in print to accompany every informal guide to Limerick. Ordinary Irish people outside of Limerick use more colourful language to describe why it wouldn't be their choice of city for a mini-break ] 01:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC) |
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Frankly, I am disappointed with the unscientific approach being used here: it has no place in an "encyclopedia". Most of the piece on Crime is written in tabloid fashion starting with the pejorative epithet "stab city" which originated in the nineties or earlier and is rarely heard nowadays. The rationale for retaining it seems to be that it is to be found in print in some newspaper somewhere. I am sure one could dredge up insulting terms for just about anyone in the country e.g., "bogmen, "culchies" for anyone outside Dublin. Presumably these have insufficient tabloid import to warrant inclusion here. |
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Then when someone tries to make a comment based on some real statistics (from the Garda website) and points out that the term "stab city" is unsupported by any hard data, this is ignored. Furthermore, the Garda statistics (if one takes the trouble to look at the site http://www.garda.ie/angarda/annreport.html ) are interesting to a neutral observer because they show that for the past five years Limerick headline crime figures are no worse than other cities like Cork. In a nutshell, the statistics simply do not support the preconceived notions; therefore an attempt is made to ignore the facts. |
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In fact, if any of the contributors were genuinely interested in writing an accurate piece, they would comment that Limerick headline crime figures were much lower than Cork, for example, in 2001. (Why?) It is only in recent years that they have caught up. Presumably this does not agree with the preconceptions so it is ignored. |
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One commentator (wmcnamara) states that even though the crime rates are lower, it is clear to him that Limerick is more dangerous! Very scientific. (S)he states that one would walk safely down the streets of Dublin at night but not Limerick. Yet the official figures show that inner city Dublin is 3-4 times more dangerous than anywhere else in the country. Even anecdotally, most people are aware of the dangers of Dublin at night. But not this particular commentator who”knows” (s)he is right… |
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Demiurge tells us that Dublin North central is not a city which is indeed true. However it is a populated area of approximately the same size as Limerick and this is why it is quoted and mentioned in the Garda statistics and why the comparison is a meaningful one. It is no disgrace that inner city Dublin is more dangerous than anywhere else; this is more or less normal for capital cities. |
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If the Crime piece were written in a balanced way, it would lead with the details of the crime statistics, which, again, do not support the qualitative details which surround it. The final two paragraphs in the piece describing some recent violence in Limrick are again sensationalist and aimed at “disproving” the statistics by someone with an agenda. Frankly one could produce similar pieces on any city in Ireland e.g., the recent murder of the Latvian lady in Dublin or the shooting dead of the innocent plumber yesterday again in Dublin. However I have no desire to sensationalise the crime situation in Dublin (which would be very easy to do). |
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Paraphrased the whole crime piece reads as follows: “the crime statistics for Limerick are more or less normal for urban areas in Ireland…but we know better..and to prove it here are a number of examples...” |
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I am sure that the piece on crime can be improved. State the available statistics and add supporting facts. Forget the sensationalist approach. Leave it to the tabloids. {{unsigned|86.41.101.179}} |
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==Cities in Ireland== |
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Unfortunately it appears content (irrespective of quality) is now determined by straw votes, see ]. Comments welcome. ] 19:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC) |
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==problem paragraph== |
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<blockquote>Although officially the fourth largest city in Ireland, it is (and almost always has been) generally considered as Ireland's 'Third City' with an urban area population some 25,000 greater than Galway's. However, if Limerick's ancient official city boundaries remain unchanged it is forseeable that within a decade Ireland's fifth largest city, ], will overtake Limerick as the fourth largest, even though Waterford City is literally half Limerick's size in terms of both urban area and true population. </blockquote>POV, future looking speculation, see ], no sources for anything in this paragraph.I think it should be dropped. ] 20:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC) |
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== More on the ranking of city sizes == |
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Most people understand that the size of a city and the size of the city with its suburbs are two different things. Dublin, in common parlance has a population of about 1 million, but the formal population of the city is about one-half that. Limerick city has a population that is about 20,000 people less than Galway city according to the 2006 census data. That's what the census bureau says, and that's what Misplaced Pages should repeat. The distinction is clearly made in the paragraph which states that Limerick is the 4th largest city in the Republic and the 5th largest urban area on the island. |
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:I think rankings should be dispensed with as their use is more about "our city is ''xxx'' than yours"; and apart from terms like largest/smallest and most/least (i.e. either end of the scale) are of dubious function. ] 21:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC) |
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==Architecture== |
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A tall building- yes. A skyscraper- I hardly think so. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 17:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small> |
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==Crime: POV and Original research== |
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I am replacing the original research (in violation of ]) carried out on garda crime stats with a referenced comment from someone who thinks Limerick doesn't have a bad crime problem. Also, the phrase <blockquote>''with the Dublin-based media dubbing it "Stab City" ''</blockquote> is not good. It implies that the origin of the name is known to be the Dublin media. Yet there is no proof of this presented. There are references to 'stab city' in non-Dublin media outlets such as and . The media may not have been the source of the name, they may merely have reported a name in use already. So that has to go too. ] 16:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC) |
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*So we are not allowed point out official Garda crime statistics in a section concerning crime in Limerick? That seems to me to be a ludicrous interpretation of ]. I've restated it in a less pointed way, but the crime rate is clearly relevant to this section and needs to stay in. ] 17:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:I have no problem stating the Garda figures, and don't think it is original research. But those figures show that Limerick County has a higher rate than Cork City in 2005. 31/1000 for Limerick vs 27/1000 for Cork. Dublin is 39/1000. This makes Limerick second after Dublin for reported crime per population. Limerick's figures are up 25% in the year 2004-05 while Cork is up only 4%. Further, the "Limerick"; figures quoted include both city and county. Cork County's crime figures are about half that of Cork city, so its likely that Limerick City's figures are considerably higher than 31/1000 in order to drag the combined figure up. ] 19:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::Ah, my mistake, I had been looking at the wrong column in the report. I'll modify the article to correct this. I take your point about the city/county being combined for Limerick yet separate for Cork; unfortunately that's the best the Garda statistics provide. ] 20:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Another word of caution on these figures is that they are calculated on an assumption of a constant population, the CSO 2002 figures. So the 4% increase in Cork from 2004-05 is based on dividing the number of 2004 and 2005 crimes by the 2002 population. However, the population has been rising at a high rate, about 3% a year. The real crime rate rise in Cork is probably closer to 1% or lower. (but this ''is'' an example of original research by me and shouldn't be included in the article) ] 21:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::::We are back to users adding their own analysis of primary source data to build a case for a point of view. ] has added his own analysis; in this case by averaging statistics on reported crime over an arbitrary selection of years for an arbitrary category of crime and using figures for County Limerick in an article on Limerick city. An opponent to ]'s POV could easily add analysis of primary data showing the opposite: for example by selecting homicide data and comparing for 2005 alone to 'prove'that Limerick is the most dangerous place in the country. This process of editor analysis of primary source is endless and pointless and forbidden by Misplaced Pages policy. See ] and ] for details. What we can do is to summarise secondary sources that analyse crime statistics in Limerick. ] 20:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::'''We are getting somehwere now.''' In ]'s last reverted POV edit, I notice s/he was trying to add a reference to a newspaper article about a Limerick maths professor who had analysed crime in Limerick and . This is way better than all the ] analysis of crime stats added by various well meaning editors. Also it trumps local politicians and city officials who were the only source I could find supporting the argument that Limerick is not a high crime place. On the downside, he is not a criminologist and the analysis was not peer reviewed but still it's an improvement on anything else we have. So I am going to add this source in a neutral way and take out the quote from Mary Dundon. Ideally, for balance, we could find an article by some other academic claiming the opposite.] 18:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC) |
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Seabhcan's comments on crime statistics in Limerick deserve comment. Yes the Limerick headline crime figures for 2005 are worse than for Cork (But why not comment that the Cork 2004 figures are higher than the Limerick 2004 figures? Is it because this doesn't fit preconceived notions?). Furthermore there are figures available for the years 2001-2005. Why not use them all? That is what statistics is all about. On average Limerick headline crime is lower than Cork's for 2001-2005. Also notable is the fact that Limerick headline crime in 2001 was much lower than Cork's. It has only caught up in recent years. No comment on this: it doesn't fit preconceived notions I suppose. Again, unhappy with the statistics an attempt is made to massage the figures by referring to city/county. The reason the Gardai state the figures in this way is because each of the areas (e.g., Dublin north central) have approximately similar populations so the comparisons are meaningful. So the fact that Dublin North central has 120/1000 crimes is directly comparable with the Cork or Limerick figures of about 30/1000. Why not make this comment? |
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Finally, an attempt is made to approximately increase the Limerick figures by stating that Cork's population is rising more quickly. In fact the official population of Cork city has remained more or less static at 120,000 for quite a while. The increases in population are occurring outside the city boundary. One needs to use statistics as they are provided; this type of massaging of figures is unscientific and misleading. If the figures do not agree with your preconceived notions, maybe your preconceived notions are wrong, not the figures! {{unsigned|86.41.101.179}} |
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I am surprised at Curtains99's comments on dontknowoo's statistics. Surely one should use all the figures available to one. Garda figures are available for 2001-2005 so why not use them? Dontknowoo is not using the figures for Limerick county for Limerick city. He is using the available Gardai figures for that precinct. The Gardai break up the country into regions of similar population and present figures based on that (see above). It is inconsistent and unscientific to start quibbling in this way just because the figures do not prove your point. Rather you should ask the question if your preconceived notions are correct. The figures do not support them so where do they come from? (Note that parts of troublesome areas like Moyross are in fact in county Limerick.... Note also the homicide figures for Limerick for 2005. According to Garda figures there was one murder in 2005 in Limerick; there were two in Cork. Does that fit in with preconceptions?) {{unsigned|86.41.101.179}} |
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:With respect to the anon poster, I have no preconceptions about Limerick. I am a proud citizen of the city and lived there most of my life. However, Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research or analysis of primary statistics. This is against ]. If the user wishes to carry out this quite interesting line of research, I'm afraid wikipedia is not the place to publish it. |
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:What would be permitted would be a graph of Garda statistics over the period suggested, perhaps with a comparison with cork and dublin. (by the way - my comments above were posted long before DontKnowoo came in the scene, so a not a reply to him) ... al ] bin ] ''<small>(])</small>'' 00:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC) |
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== Twinned with New York? == |
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Has Limerick been twinned with New York? I've seen the press release from Shannon Development but I cannot find any other independent sources and adding it to the NYC page will get a swift "NO". <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 20:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> |
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:Okay, its 2007 and this hasn't happened. If noone disagrees I'm going to remove all references to this from Limerick and NYC pages. --]<sup>]</sup> 21:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC) |
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I'm a bit lost as to which cities Limerick is actually twinned with. Kemper/Quimper seems to have gone through all the hoops as there are signs put up proclaiming the fact in both cities, there is a Quimper Square in the middle of Cruise's Street and I've even met a few visitors from Kemper over the years who knew about the twinning before they ever clapped eyes on Limerick. But Spokane? Starogard Gdañsk? Limerick Pennsylvania? Noo York? I can't say I've ever come across any independent confirmation of official links with Limerick. Also, I remember some time back in the 1980s when Worcester, Massachussets was supposed to have extended its municipal arm of friendship across the Atlantic to us. Maybe some of these came as a result of junkets by our City Fathers or bright ideas by Shannon Development, Shannonside Tourism, the Chamber of Commerce or whatever - but how many of them have actually progressed as far as going up the aisle with the most loveable city in Ireland? Any ideas, anybody? ] 16:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:this is something that has irked me for a while too. i might send ] a mail and get the official line. --] 16:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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== Move Limerick -> Limerick (city) and Limerick (poetry) -> Limerick == |
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Does anybody else think that the title "Limerick" should be given to the form of poetry? In my limited experience, most people associate the word with the poem rather than the city. And a Google search for "limerick" has ] as its first hit. --] 07:41, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
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:Ummm, look a little closer, JianLi. The return Limerick (poem) and this article in first and second place. It then splits the page and shows three example search results for "Limerick poem" before continuing with results for "Limerick" only, which returns pages such as Limerick Country Council, University of Limerick, Limerick Institute of Technology, Limerick Hotel Guides, the Limerick Post, Limerick 95fm. Other engines like , and also return results for the city when queried for "Limerick" but ask if the user meant "Limerick poetry." |
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:I would suggest we do something of the same by changing the disambiguation link at the top of the article, to read something like: "This article is about the city in Ireland. For the humorous type of poetry, see ]. For other uses, see ]." --]<sup>]</sup> 09:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
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:Seeing that the poetry is almost certainly named after the city, I think the city should be first. ] doesn't direct to a sausage and ] doesn't direct to chicken. ... ] ] 13:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
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::It is actually more probable that the Limerick (poem) originated in Croom in County Limerick. There was a group of poets there (the Maigue poets) who developed this particular type of poem. Thus the Limerick is called after the county and not the city. ] 15.41, 18 June 2007 (UTC) |
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== Limerick Tourism & Development == |
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This page seems to be nothing more than enthusiastic about continued development in Limerick that is doing nothing but destroying the centre. The arts scene is dwindling but more and more shopping centres, mostly in the suburbs, are being built. |
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Limerick has some of the worst tourists attractions in Ireland. The Hop on Hop Off bus has no reason to be such a bus. It is also very old and last summer polluted all the air it went through. I saw it driving around housing estates and down roads with no mention of a tourist sight. It is grossly overpriced. |
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Any attempts to fix this show that this page is not neutral, and refuses to even allow me to list a location that the bus drives through, just so any budding tourist can see what they'd be putting themselves in for. |
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WHY WAS THE FOLLOWING REMOVED? |
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However, it has emerged that Limerick sees itself as disadvantaged within the Irish National Development Plan (NDP). Limerick clearly has a dissipating regional economic base and an exodus of residential and commercial activity from the city centre. Commercial rent is lower in the city centre than the suburbs, and the city centre must promote its existence through local radio advertisements. |
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source: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1212/breaking66.htm |
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There is very little about the reality of the economy in LImerick city centre on this page. It is being run by those with a biased view of a city that is in reality in decline. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Since when is Limerick one of the most popular tourist destinations in Ireland? Most guidebooks keep the Limerick section short and unenthusiastic. Tourists are virtually a non presence compared with the other main cities. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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==GA delisted== |
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{{{icon|]}}} In order to uphold the quality of ], all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the ] as part of the ]. Unfortunately, as of |
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September 18, |
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2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from ]. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at ]. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at ]. <!-- Template:GABoldDelist --> |
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*The lead doesn't adequately summarise the article. |
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*Every statement that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs an inline citation. |
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*References should state the author, publisher, publishing date and access date if known. |
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*The geography section needs expanding. |
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*External links only belong in the external links section |
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*Only full dates should be linked. |
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Regards, ] 17:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC) |
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== Crime section is biased == |
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The crime section is far too extensive for somewhere with a relatively average crime rate per population compared to other Irish cities. Some statements are not Limerick-specific, but are a general Irish problem, such as: |
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:A characteristic of crime in Limerick, a small city, is that witnesses are often intimidated. |
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Witness intimidation is a serious concern throughout Ireland, and many trials are turning into pathetic charades. Most of the country, even including Dublin, consists of small communities. |
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== Maigue Poets == |
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I have removed the offending section which read like a school essay. The remaining text is ample explanation of crime in Limerick, and an in-depth write-up on the reasons for crime in Limerick are beyond the scope of this article. Much of the problems are common across Ireland, even if more acute in some instances in Limerick. The full reasons for Limerick's particular problems are pretty complex, and at even a basic level, having the city council control only about half the city area, the poorer inner-city and social housing, isn't something that helps! It is central government in Dublin responsible for turning a blind eye and deaf ears on that issue for decades, most of the last century in fact. |
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Since the article linked to says absolutely nothing on this subject, the link should be taken out and this section should give an explanation of what is meant. |
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] (]) 23:50, 12 May 2018 (UTC) |
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=="the fourth-most populous city on the island of Ireland"== |
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] <span style="color:green; font-size:larger"> ♣</span> ] 10:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC) |
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I'm going to remove this claim as it's unsourced and almost certainly incorrect. There is no reference in the article to support it and it therefore seems to be implicitly supported, via link, by ]. The problem is that that article isn't comparing like with like and therefore doesn't support the statement. As the intro to "List of settlements..." makes clear, the figures for cities in the Republic of Ireland (i.e. Limerick) are from 2016, whereas the figures for cities in Northern Ireland (i.e. Derry) are from 2011. So what we have is |
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Limerick (2016 population) 94,192. |
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Derry (2011 population) 93,512. |
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Derry's population has been growing at a faster rate than Limerick's in recent times, so it's 99.99% certain that Derry's 2016 population would have been higher than Limerick's. Rather than relegate Limerick to fifth place, I think it's best to remove it altogether, though a possible compromise would be saying that Limerick is one of the five largest cities on the island. ] (]) 18:34, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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... Nor do the words 'crime' or 'criminal' appear at all in the article. Now I know a lot of people seem to think that the city is unfairly regarded in this sense, but no mention of what has been an ongoing story of national interest for several years is a bit much! <b><i>NaLaochra (]|]) </i></b> 13:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC) |
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:So you base your claim on guesswork? <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 18:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::I base the removal on ]: "All material in Misplaced Pages mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed." No source for this claim = no inclusion. ] (]) 19:22, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::You base the removal on plain guesswork. You give no evidence for your claim at all. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 19:32, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::No, as I have said several times, I base the removal on the total lack of a source to verify it. Do you get ]? Hint: it's key to how things work round here. ] (]) 19:39, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::What part of my opening statement "I'm going to remove this claim '''as it's unsourced''' " is unclear? ] (]) 19:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::What part do you not understand from "based on guesswork"? <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 19:42, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::All of it. Sourcing material which is challenged is non-negotiable. You find a ] to support the claims, it can go in. You don't, it doesn't. You continue to add unsourced material, things escalate and not to your benefit. ] (]) 19:47, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::That table you are referring too is sourced. But you think, hope, guess that Derry is more populous. In fact, a claim based on nothing. So I call your removals vandalising. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 19:51, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::The table is based on figures for one city in 2011 and one city in 2016. Chalk and cheese. It proves nothing other than that the second city had a slightly larger population in 2016. It would only support a sentence like "Limerick had a slightly higher population in 2016 than Derry did in 2011." That statement is random and adds nothing to the article. You can call the removal whatever you want: ] is thataway, but don't be surprised if ] applies. After all, it is you that is adding unsourced material. You wish to include the 4th largest statement, find a source that explicitly says that. ] and ] with a light seasoning of ]. ] (]) 19:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Your statement is indeed random and just an aggressive way to get what you want. But it is based on nothing but spite. Why do you not come with proof that Derry is more populous? <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 20:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC) <small>But I must admit that you know your abbreviations, although I am not impressed or convinced by that. I just want evidence.</small> |
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::::::::::I suggest you stick to the topic. What impresses you or me or doesn't impress us is not remotely relevant. What is relevant is that you come up with a source to support the claim you want to include. If you are unable to do that then case closed because I see little value in circular arguing which essentially boils down to you saying "I want to include that, but can't find a source for it, so I'll chuck in a few baseless personal attacks and ]." Source, please. ] (]) 20:08, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::::: The source is the CSO which states Limerick City has a population of 94,192. This is larger than the claimed Derry City population of 93,512 (which by the way doesn't even have a source. NISRA says the population of Derry City in the 2011 census was 83,163). <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:15, 3 December 2020 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::::::::::::Yep, so there's another issue, the table that claim was supposedly sourced to has incorrect figures. If someone can tidy that up and find like for like comparisons (2011 figures versus 2011 figures) then we're good to go. ] (]) 20:23, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::: The population of Limerick City in 2016 was 94,192 and in 2011 it was 91,454. If you can provide proof that the Derry City population is greater than those then please do. ] (]) 21:05, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::Great, so we can add that it was fourth largest at the 2011 census. Since The Banner apparently doesn't "do sources" or understand ], I'll add the refs. ] (]) 14:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::You wanted a source, I gave you a source. And yes, I expected that you would not be happy with a source. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 15:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::Ow, and your source claims ''Derry / Londonderry, Newry and Omagh experienced a modest fall in population.''. That also contradicts your claim that Derry is growing much faster than Limerick. Also . <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 15:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
Since the article linked to says absolutely nothing on this subject, the link should be taken out and this section should give an explanation of what is meant.
100.15.117.207 (talk) 23:50, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm going to remove this claim as it's unsourced and almost certainly incorrect. There is no reference in the article to support it and it therefore seems to be implicitly supported, via link, by List of settlements on the island of Ireland by population. The problem is that that article isn't comparing like with like and therefore doesn't support the statement. As the intro to "List of settlements..." makes clear, the figures for cities in the Republic of Ireland (i.e. Limerick) are from 2016, whereas the figures for cities in Northern Ireland (i.e. Derry) are from 2011. So what we have is
Derry's population has been growing at a faster rate than Limerick's in recent times, so it's 99.99% certain that Derry's 2016 population would have been higher than Limerick's. Rather than relegate Limerick to fifth place, I think it's best to remove it altogether, though a possible compromise would be saying that Limerick is one of the five largest cities on the island. Valenciano (talk) 18:34, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
