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User attacking other editors; ongoing non-encyclopedic content

Please take a look at the behavior of User:Jack DeMattos. He is a professional writer who's been on WP since June 1, 2015. I've tried to make him feel welcome and given him lots of room to match his flowery, editorial, magazine style writing to WP encyclopedic style, but he's not making much progress. Now he's begun to arbitrarily delete from articles all images another user has uploaded added and leave personal attacks in his edit summaries, like this: "Removed obviously bogus photo supposed to be Charles E. Bassett. This is yet another unfortunate example submitted by a serial purveyor of photo photos of Wild West figures. This person is single handedly turning Wipipedia into 'Wackypedia." His comment is really ironic, because his contributions are pretty much in the same category. Instances of comments like this in his edit summaries include this one, another, one more, and another.

He's leaving his flowery footprints and non-sourced content all over the Old West articles. In the past week this has included Pat Garrett; Bill Tilghman; Bat Masterson; and Billy the Kid.

Oon Friday 4 December he made big changes to Bill Tilghman and removed hatnotes about the article quality that he had not fixed, but added to; over the weekend he was hitting Billy the Kid; the latter article is quite a mess now. His references can't be authenticated by anyone because he doesn't leave proper citations. In some instances his refs aren't refs, but footnotes full of ancillary info not pertinent to the article, like references numbered 1, 3-8, 21, 22, 24-28, 30, and 31 in Bill Tilghman. Everyplace he goes, another editor needs to follow behind and clean up his contributions, if only someone had the time. You can see all his contributions here.

Other editors have taken his behavior to the Admin noticeboard twice before (here and here), and he's promised to do better, but he really doesn't appear to be listening. The help he's been offered, his actions in return, and the warnings given, etc, are summarized in several posts on his Talk page. I don't feel like he's giving any heed to the praise, direction, encouragement OR warnings I've left on his talk page.

I'm running out of patience and his contributions are becoming more of detriment than a help. I think it may be time for a short block to get his attention. Your input is most warmly welcomed. — btphelps 22:49, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Good grief. Billy the Kid is nearly unreadable, and the Tilghman article is almost as bad. Thinking about reverting his changes completely. Not a big fan of MOS blocks, but if he's not getting the message, maybe it's time. This is damaging the encyclopedia. Katie 01:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Jack DeMattos has deleted photos that I and others have contributed to wiki without even asking if there is provenance or substantial evidence. He seems to believe that he is the only one that can contribute to the pages about the people he writes about. Some of the comments he made regarding photos from an important Old West collection: "Deleted bogus photo. Once again this has been submitted by a person with a track record with offering phony photos to Misplaced Pages articles.this is not, nor ever will be, one of them." Being a published historian does not automatically make one experienced at identifying historical people. True West, Jack Demattos and several other top published writers recently made a fool of themselves when they gave their negative opinions on the latest possible Billy the Kid photograph before the program about it aired on National Geographic. The show revealed fantastic evidence that gave the photo a very high percentage of being Billy and his friends. Since then, the owners and the filmmaker have established provenance for the photo and will be airing their findings soon in another program. The producer/owner of the film company has shown excited interest in the photos from this same collection that Jack has declared as bogus. Jack DeMattos should not be allowed to decide what is or isn't correct for the public's number one information resource. OSMOND PHILLIPS (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This is the third time this same issue has been brought here. This user does not seem to be getting it. They have gotten a lot of advice but don't seem to be taking it. That sort of text is more suited to a cheap western paperback story than an encyclopedia. HighInBC 06:25, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Which editor are you referring to, the OP or the subject of the complaint? BMK (talk) 07:49, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

He means the subject of the complaint. DeMattos has been here several times for the same issues. Anyway, I did some emergency copy edits to Bill Tilghman and added two sources. I guess it's a little better now, though one of the sources I added should probably be replaced by a better one, as it's a primary source written by Tilghman's widow. It'll do for now, though. I don't want to follow this guy around and perform copy edits on all the articles he edits, but it seems like there should be some way to retain his expertise. I don't know. If he won't change, I guess maybe something does need to be done. I'd prefer some kind of mentorship or something, but I hear those often end disastrously. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:43, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

DeMattos is still turning the Billy the Kid page into an expanded outline instead of an encyclopedia article, and he's obviously ignoring this discussion. Katie 22:56, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

He replied to me about the ANI notice on his talk page. I asked him to bring his comments here. — btphelps 03:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Let's try one more time to get Jack DeMattos to comment here. He really, really should. Katie 23:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, since Jack Demattos is back editing and still didn't respond here, I'm going to take a crack at getting some prose back into one of these articles. They read like lists without bullets and numbering. Let's see how he reacts. Katie 20:33, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, he won't mind the cleanup, that's what I and others have been doing piece-meal for the past six months. I don't believe that will encourage Jack Demattos to try harder to adapt his writing to WP style. Part of the problem is that after I clean up an article he's edited, he returns to it and adds more content of the same style. I don't have time to endlessly police his writing. NinjaRobotPirate suggested a mentorship. That's effectively what I've been trying to do for the past six months, as you can see on Jack's talk page.

If Jack doesn't improve his writing, I fear he's going to leave his boot prints all over WP, and the effect will be long-lasting. There are precious few editors still active at the American Old West wikiproject. I would like to see some stronger enforcement of MOS. Pinging others who have posted on his talk page: WikiDan61, Dennis Brown, Intothatdarkness — btphelps 21:43, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that you'd been trying that. Everyone familiar with DeMattos knows he's received copious amounts of advice and help. It's frustrating to see that he's still writing stuff like "Tilghman was never shy about blowing his own horn. Not content to write his memoirs, Tilghman filmed them in a movie that he directed,and starred in playing himself." I don't understand why he's ignoring all the advice given to him. If this were a living person, it'd be a BLP violation. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

There's also voice-over prose such as "At the age of seventy, Bill Tilghman was called on to perform his last service as a peace officer. In 1924, the man who had ridden in posses with Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson and Heck Thomas, now drove into the oil-rich boom town of Cromwell, Oklahoma in a Model T Ford." which would be quite amusing if this wasn't an encyclopedia. NebY (talk) 22:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I had a look at his most recent edits to Bat Masterson and my eyes glazed over at the state of the article. Unless Jack comes and explains himself, I'd say a temporary block would be necessary. Writing the way he does with expectation that others clean up after him is disruptive. Blackmane (talk) 03:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I seem to recall SBHarris has an old-west interest. Perhaps he can help rein in this lawless scalawag. EEng (talk) 04:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm surprised that DeMattos is still stirring up problems months after my initial report at this board. He seems unwilling to conform his writing to Misplaced Pages's guidelines. The problem isn't the veracity of his edits: he is meticulous in his referencing. The problems are that he insists that every factoid that he can verify be included in the article, no matter how trivial or irrelevant; and that he insists on writing in the florid style that the readers of his populist wild-west books and articles seem to like. It might work for the paperback history market, but it's not encyclopedic. And apparently no amount of cajoling on the part of many other editors will convince him to change his style, leaving the job of cleanup to others. And has been pointed out here, there are not many editors involved in the subject area that he has chosen, so his problematic edits may go unnoticed for quite some time. I support the idea of a block (even if only temporary) to protect the project from his ongoing disruption. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 05:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• After seeing the damage done to Billy the Kid, which had been nominated as a GA, and noting that this is an ongoing issue, that Jack DeMattos has not responded here, despite continuing to edit, and being asked to, and his response on his talkpage which indicates that he clearly doesn't get it, I feel he has to be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Someone who is willing to listen and learn, we can always help. Someone who is damaging articles, and refuses to listen, being adamant that he is right, is going to continue being a problem, destabilising articles, creating work for other editors, and wasting everyone's time when we discuss the matter over and over again. We either block him now, or we block him in three, six, twelve months time. Better we do it now, and save ourselves a lot of wasted effort. SilkTork 10:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I suggest an indefinite block with the option to make an initial appeal after a month. Making the default situation that he has to commit to accepting he is in the wrong before being allowed to edit again. If we use a temporary block with an automatic return to editing, we are simply kicking the problem down the road. From what has been said above, and looking through his history, people have been telling him he is doing more harm than good for some months, but he doesn't accept it. Let us be sure he gets it, before we allow him to edit again. SilkTork 10:20, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Harassment on Talk:Historiography of the British Empire

For two weeks I have been harassed daily by User:Snowded and his close ally User:Wiki-Ed. I've had enough: the allegations are all false but they come tumbling out: 1) Nov 24: "There is little or nothing to do with Historiography in this article. Instead we de facto have a partial and pos version of the main British Empire article. It needs radical pruning to get back to the subject or possibly deletion". Nov 24: Snowded alleged WP:OR and WP:OWN. Nov 24: Snowded wrote: "The material here does not match the title, it is a partial POV perspective on the British Empire. As such it is a coat rack article for material which would not survive scrutiny at British Empire." Nov 25: Wiki-Ed writes: "Snowded is correct, this is a coatrack article: it should be discussing the historiography of the British Empire; instead it seems to be an interpretation of the British Empire, thinly disguised as a (very partial) review of certain sources." etc etc, they never stop. I have repeatedly rejected and demonstrated their claims are false. They seem to believe I have a secret POV agenda, Which I deny. I've written a lot of books and articles and scholarly venues, but I've not published anything about the British Empire and have no secret agenda. I repeatedly demand proof or evidence, or even which section is at fault. They repeatedly refuse to answer--Dec 8: Rjensen: "Which paragraph demonstrates unacceptable POV?" Snowded: "Better to start with the overall structure, then look at individual paragraphs." This is sustained harassment by two editors who have never edited Historiography of the British Empire, which has been active since Oct 2008, and which overlaps very little with the article they try to protect British Empire. Other editors on the page have largely supported me, not these two. I request User:Snowded and his close ally User:Wiki-Ed by kept away from Talk:Historiography of the British Empire. Rjensen (talk) 08:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Several editors have expressed concern that Riensen is building an alternative article to the British Empire one under the guise of historiography. Hence the issue of the need to deal first with the whole structure not paragraph by paragraph within his structure. The comments he has made about the inadequacies of the British Empire article support the view that this may be a coatrack. When this started I asked Riensen for his authority for the structure and he quoted two sources, one of which is suitable. However he would not share the detailed contents so I have bought the book and said clearly on the talk page that I will check that against the structure and come back with a proposal for change later this week. That has resulted in a torrent of personal abuse and a refusal to simply wait and see. No one is harassing Rjensen, no changes have yet been made to the article. He daily (well hourly and more stridently as the day does on) launches at attacks on the talk page to which I have tried to respond politely. I for one am trying to engage him on the talk page but that is very difficult given his clearly expressed contempt for editors who do not share his academic qualifications. In respect of the quote where he says that he has " repeatedly rejected and demonstrated their claims are false" I invite third party review. He states that the claims areas false and asserts that he has included multiple views but he has yet to address the main objection namely that an article on historiography should be about that, not a collection of statements from historians organised into (his words) an eclectic structure. When there are concrete proposals for change on the talk page then he can respond and I expect we will have an RFC and possibly dispute resolution before this is over. For the moment the only possible community action is to ask Rjensen to stop his multiple personal attacks. This is not even a content dispute yet and the fact he has brought it here illustrates the problem :-) ----Snowded 08:41, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Snowded has never made a substantive edit on this article (and very few on British Empire article). I believe he has not been familiar with the historiography of the British Empire or even the word itself. Instead he tags the article and says that as soon as he reads a book he will propose sweeping changes. In my opinion he is primarily motivated to protect the other article British Empire. It is not under threat, for there is little overlap and it reaches a very different audience. The historiography article was created in October 2008 & has caused no serious controversy until 2 weeks ago, when Snowded tagged it as POV WP:COATRACK and WP:POVFORK. He says the problem is "structure" but has been unable to explain what he means. He says he will explain himself later but keeps the tags to delegitimize the article. On 12:53, 5 December 2015‎ Qexigator tried to remove them with the edit summary: "the tags have been sufficiently discussed to show that they are not correct, please do not needlessly or casually encourage disruption." Rjensen (talk) 08:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Oexigator's removal of the tags was reverted twice by another experienced user namely User:Wee Curry Monster with the comment "discussions are ongoing and valid concerns remain - edit warring over tags you should know better)" The reason for the tags has been clearly explained, what will come later this week is a assessment of Rjensen's source and a proposal for a way forward. Not sure why he can't wait ----Snowded 09:21, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This is a clear case of harassment. In view of the discussion complained of by Rjensen, I repeat here: "Let me remind anyone who has not read the whole of the discussion, or who has forgotten, an earlier comment (of mine) there that the discussion has been more about a particular revisionist point of view than improving the article, on the part of a commenter who asserted ...any humanities degree allows an intelligent commentary on the difference between a history and an article about theories/practices of history. But that depends on the quality or character of the teacher and of the graduand, and no academic degree ensures a balanced understanding of editing in general, editing a Wikipdia article, or editing an article such as this one. So far, I have seen (in the discusion) an unwarranted degree of aggression and inability to attempt to understand the validity of another editor's explanation for the content of the article as we now have it. The comment (by the harassing party): You are going to have to learn to work with editors who are not professional historians and show a little more respect if we are going to get anywhere would reflect very badly on its author if it were not simply risible. Qexigator (talk) 09:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't really see how anything you said above shows that this is a case of WP:HARASSMENT. LjL (talk) 15:23, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I agree I see no case for harassment. It sounds like criticism. Snowded also provided no diffs showing Riensen made any personal attacks. This should be worked out on the talk page. I agree this article is seriously problematic: This article should not be concerning history itself but historiography; see Historiography of the United States. —Мандичка 😜 19:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Rjensen has made personal attacks, but it's more about the tone. However, since you asked, here are some examples: Snowded is 'ignorant' ; Snowded has 'pretty slim' writing experience ; Snowded's view is 'nonsense' ; Snowded is making 'false and incoherent statements' (plus some disparaging comments on expertise and motive) . Snowded has received the majority of the attacks over the last week, but I've also been branded 'ignorant' (different article but same topic) and lack a 'deep knowledge' . Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:22, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

PS. Thank you for the link to the article on US historiography - that's a nice example of the approach we should be aiming for with the article in question. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. It needs to be strictly on the historiography or it's likely to be deleted as POV fork. Rjensen should probably be warned over the comments - calling people "ignorant" etc is neither helpful nor allowed. —Мандичка 😜 21:53, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this is yet a case of harassment, but User:Snowded could focus more on the specific issues with the page and less on User:Rjensen's motivations - Snowded starting the talk page debate with claims that this is a coatrack, asserting that the whole page should be deleted, and quoting OR and OWN were not the most constructive approach. The page is, from a quick skim, about what it says it is (historians' takes on the British Empire), and changes to the content will require consulting sources and discussing how to best use them (do ask WikiProject History for help). Rjensen should avoid using words like "ignorant", but he has also faced personal comments. Fences&Windows 23:08, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The article is too much about history and historical criticism of the British Empire; neither of that is historiography. See other historiography articles like Historiography of the United States, Historiography of the French Revolution and Historiography of the Cold War. —Мандичка 😜 23:24, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Happy to agree that the discussion may not have started off in the best way and to take my share of responsibility for that. But I have been trying since to move it forward - you will see a section talking about the need for some changes to the main article. But overall yes I think it is a coatrack article in the main I spent about three hours yesterday (as promised last week) going through Winks' Historiography of the British Empire to work through a possible structure and will post on that later in the week (although the other articles referenced may short circuit that a bit). Remember I didn't bring the matter here, Rjensen has done his best in the last week to tell me that I am "ignorant" etc. and I have made it clear that if that continues then it might be necessary to bring an ANI case. That seems to have been the trigger to a pre-emptive strike in trying to remove myself and Wiki-Ed from the article. ----Snowded 06:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I have Historiography of the British Empire on my watchlist and have become increasingly concerned that is being turned into a WP:COATRACK article reflecting the views of its principle author. The article is sourced but its an example of WP:SYN where the principle author selects principle sources that reflect their own POV, rather than trying to give a balanced view of the range of opinion in published literature. If I may observe that the principle authors seems to be approaching this as an academic paper rather than an article for an online encyclopedia. As such its becoming a candidate for deletion as a POV fork. In addition, RJensen is alternating between arguing from authority and personal abuse (diffs above). The intervention from Qexigator has also been unhelpful, first of all accusing editors of picking a quarrel, removing tags when there was clearly an ongoing discussion , and backing up a false claim here of harassment. I fear that unless the uncivil behaviours are nipped in the bud this will likely end at arbcom. WCM_email 23:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I too, having it on my watchlist, have read the course of the discussion differently, and see the above comment, and others like it, as one-sided veering to travesty. The incivility, as I see it, is largely aimed against the complaining party. Let us see some balance in responses. Qexigator (talk) 00:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Rjensen responds: On the structure of the article I have said this repeatedly: the topics selected are those chosen by the RS, especially the three books on the historiography of the British Empire: two by Winks and one by Stockwell. As for the comparison with the article on the historiography of the United States. I wrote most of that article. There are multiple schools of thought on American history, and that article is structured by those schools. We do not have multiple schools of thought on the British Empire so it is impossible to use a schools structure and no RS has attempted to do so. Instead historians tackle separate topics, arranged by chronology, by regions, and by such themes as religion, gender, slavery, etc. The Historiography of the British Empire is therefore organized by chronology, geography, and themes. To quote from the preface to Winks Historiography vol 5 P xiv: "The organization of this volume is chronological, thematic, and regional. The opening chapters survey the historiography of the Empire from its origins through the period of the American revolution.... Thematic chapters in this part of the volume include those dealing with exploration and empire, science and medicine, gender, slavery and the slave trade, and missions and empire....The regional chapters include separate accounts of the historiography of the West Indies, (etc)." For context please see Winks at Winks (1999). The Oxford History of the British Empire: Volume V: Historiography. p. 14. The "Historiography of the British Empire" article therefore is based on a standard structure used by the RS. As for my rhetoric, I never called anyone "ignorant". I stated: "Snowded now admits he never looked at the RS on historiography--all his comments are based on ignorance of the RS on historiography." As for "false": I made that allegation in rejecting his specific claims about my intentions. As for the coat rack allegation: this article is entirely about the historians of the British Empire and their ideas and debates. That is what historiography is all about. The events and dates and historic developments of the British Empire are "history": and are in the article on the British Empire. That history material is not duplicated here. There's very little overlap in text or in the footnotes. In my opinion, Snowded has repeatedly challenged my good faith by asserting that I have a secret POV. When challenged he is unable to identify that POV or find any POV statements anywhere in the article. Snowded has announced that his intention is to radically reduce or eliminate this article. see Nov 30 He has announced his strong POV ahead of time and has locked himself into a position where he cannot edit in good faith. Rjensen (talk) 03:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

"three books on the historiography of the British Empire: two by Winks and one by Stockwell" - Really? An article built mostly on the opinions of a mere two authors is going to be a candidate for deletion on Synthesis grounds even if it is not a coatrack. There are hundreds of thousands of books that in some way deal with the history of the British Empire - are there really only three sources that deal with how those hundreds of thousands have addressed the subject? The placing of the Phillip Buckner opinion in the lede (and seeing it expressed as if it were a fact rather than an opinion) hints to me that this article has been written with a pov. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Winks edited two books of chapters that were were written by 61 different scholars; Stockwell added another 12 different scholars. The article is based on about 200 footnotes from these and other established scholars. Bruckner is explicitly not talking about his own opinions but the consensus of scholars. Rjensen (talk) 00:50, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

It is Buckner's OPINION that this is the consensus of scholars. We have three sentences in the lede containing extreme opinions derived from a single source, and with those opinions presented as if they were facts. This is not good. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:08, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages always goes with the RS--Bruckner's statement is based on extensive research not on his private opinion. Rjensen (talk) 00:07, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

If it were his PRIVATE opinion, there would be no source for it! It is his PUBLIC opinion: it is published in a publically available source. But it is still an OPINION, and it is a blatant case of undue weight to place one person's opinion, derived from a single source, and containing that sort of blanket claim, in a lede. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

when a well-established scholar reports his conclusions in a scholarly journal based on decades of research, we have a RS of the sort Misplaced Pages emphasizes. The Wiki rule about handling suspected POV is to provide an alternative RS. Rjensen (talk) 04:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Very happy to admit I had not read Winks before this encounter (although I am enjoying it so thanks). I do however know the difference between historiography and history. I asked Rjensen for his primary source for the structure of the article and having been told, went out and bought it. Per multiple comments on the talk page and here I then promised to come back this week having done that with specific proposals. I did think that would be well received but it wasn't. Otherwise I'm also happy to confirm that everything I have read says that a lot of this material does not belong in an article on historiography; but if you check the talk page I have suggested (and will be more concrete in that suggestion later) that a lot of the material may belong in other articles that can be referenced. All of that seems to have been misinterpreted and I do think there is a ownership problem here. ----Snowded 11:25, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

User:STSC and WP:NOTHERE

STSC (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is basically a pusher of the POV of the viewpoint of the government of the People's Republic of China. Almost every edit done by this user is misleading, with misleading edit summaries (such as using the edit summary "ce" while censoring negative information about the PRC government or other related topics, subtle changes to the text that affects the meanings, removal of sourced content, etc. As an example, what is this?) Really, almost every single edit by this user is problematic; search the archives for previous discussion about this user. This has been a long-term issue; editors have been frustrated with this user's refusal to discuss or cooperate, or even left because of this user. Often when other editors revert POV-pushing edits by STSC, STSC reports these users to WP:AN3. STSC has been warned frequently in the past, and has a history of blocks and topic bans. I think that an indef block may be appropriate in this situation. Pinging Citobun, Signedzzz, and Ohconfucius, who are more familiar with this editor than I am. sst✈ 12:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• I strongly agree with the above assessment. I'm away from the computer and my phone is nearly out of battery so I’ll keep it short for now and elaborate with diffs tomorrow. STSC is a long-term, relatively low-key political agenda editor whose activity here (for years) nearly exclusively serves to parrot the viewpoint of the Chinese government. My interest on Misplaced Pages mainly centres around Hong Kong and this is the context in which I have encountered STSC but I know he is active in every modern controversial Chinese subject - Falun Gong, military history, etc. He censors and edits disruptively which he conceals using deceptive edit summaries like the innocuous “c/e”. If challenged or reverted he begins revert warring to enforce his edit and bullies other users by frivolously spamming their talk pages with warning templates. When asked to defend a particular edit his reasoning generally doesn't hold water but he will revert and revert until other editors are worn out. I try hard now to avoid interacting with him/her.

The only reason STSC hasn't been banned to date is that he is relatively low-key and does his work over a long period of time. But this type of agenda editing is most damaging to the encyclopedia as it is not blatant and hence not so easy to fight. Citobun (talk) 15:57, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I guess we've been very luck here up to now in not having to deal with the Wumao. Life will never be the same again as our vigilance will have to be elevated. As I'm burnt out from conflicts over FLG orthodoxy, I'll leave the Falun Gong articles up to others. -- Ohc  19:40, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Here's a few other examples of misconduct - a very small sample, relative to his PROLIFIC agenda editing on Hong Kong-related articles, not to speak of all his other China-related editing.

• September 2015: misleading edit summary
• August 2015: misleading edit summary
• May 2015: misleading edit summary
• May 2015: STSC makes major changes to the Hong Kong article with the edit summary "ce". The edits censor the reason behind the 2014 Hong Kong protests (i.e. universal suffrage), delete information on police abuses, delete reference to the largely peaceful nature of the protest. I reverted these edits once and STSC places a warning template on my talk page to intimidate me. I give up.
• May 2015: Misleading edit summary - removes reference to Hong Kong as having a "high degree of autonomy", again deleting reference to Hong Kong's autonomy, egregiously misleading edit summary
• March 2015: rm reference to police abuses despite being referenced to Time magazine
• February 2015: misleading edit summary
• January 2015: misleading edit summary
• November 2014: Censorship of well-sourced and widely reported material about the credibility of a pro-government group's survey, reverts again with edit summary referring to WP:CRYSTALBALL (does not apply), places personal attack warning template on my talk page while I have never made any personal attacks, again, I beefed up the sources, more censorship, I open a lengthy talk page discussion, he blanks 3000 bytes of referenced material, I gave up.
• December 2014: misleading edit summary, incomplete edit summary - placing badge of People's Liberation Army in place of the Cenotaph, low-key agenda editing, misleading edit summary, rm photo of protesters, rm reference to large numbers of protesters citing the CBC, a reliable source; totally rm reference to protests in Central and Wan Chai that shut down highways and roads and were publicised in numerous reliable sources
• November 2014: censor photo of protests, ditto, more photo censorship, ridiculous photo censorship with no distinction between impartial coverage of the protests, and actual NPOV behavior, more attempted censorship of this particular banner
• October 2014: spamming articles with fringe theories about how the U.S. government supposedly instigated the 2014 Hong Kong pro-democracy protests (1, 2, 3), censorship - Beijing's nomination committee IS what the protests were about, misleading edit summary, censorship of information cited to reliable source, misleading edit summary/censorship, misleading edit summary, misleading edit summary, misleading edit summary, unexplained deletion of protest sites, he repeatedly changed "water cannons" to "water sprays", misleading edit summary, misleading edit summary/unexplained deletions
• September 2014: delete reference to Hong Kong as a former British colony
• September 2014: changing the Hong Kong infobox to show Putonghua (Mandarin) as the "national language" of Hong Kong, with Cantonese as a "regional language". For those unfamiliar with China/Hong Kong, Putonghua is the language promoted by the national government in Beijing. Cantonese is the language spoken by 95% of Hong Kong people
• September 2014: "fixing style/layout errors" - but in fact making major changes to the infobox, i.e. changing "Treaty of Nanking" to "British occupation"
• June 2014: misleading edit summary

I dunno, I could go on. I have spent an hour compiling this but I could go on all night. This is not at all a comprehensive view of his advocacy here, and I strongly request an admin take a serious look at his editing history. It speaks for itself. As you can see, when it comes to Hong Kong STSC's edits entirely centre around a number of themes: downplaying the reasons behind the 2014 pro-democracy protests; downplaying Hong Kong's heritage as a British colony; excessively promoting Chinese sovereignty over Hong Kong; downplaying Hong Kong's autonomy under one country, two systems; promoting the People's Liberation Army Hong Kong Garrison; promoting Japanese war atrocities in Hong Kong; bullying others by accusing them of personal attacks when they question his editing; bullying others through frivolous and improper use of talk page warning templates; making misleading edit summaries on a serial basis despite being warned for this repeatedly.

STSC is highly adept at working within the bounds of Misplaced Pages conventions, never pushing the envelope too far, but ultimately shows no respect for the concepts of impartiality and balance and is not here to build an encyclopedia. I am tired of seeing him undermine the impartiality of Hong Kong and China-related articles – his edit history speaks for itself. I am tired of him enforcing his political activism and political censorship through blunt force reverting and frivolous, bullying use of warning templates in mine and other's talk pages. It is really exhausting and I considered quitting Misplaced Pages back when he was censoring photos I had taken of the protests specifically for Misplaced Pages. Paging another potentially interested editor TheBlueCanoe. Citobun (talk) 12:38, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't have much to add, other than to say that I agree with the assessments offered above. STSC is careful not to step too far out of bounds (i.e. constantly involved in edit wars, but no obvious 3RR violations), but the cumulative effect of the edits is clearly disruptive, and intended to advance some kind of quasi-nationalist agenda. I've also noted the user's tendency to try to provoke and needle his opponents, leave frivolous warning templates on others' pages, and use innocuous/misleading edit summaries to conceal clear POV edits(). Since one of the affected topic areas (Falun Gong) falls under discretionary sanctions, I've considered bringing this up in arbitration enforcement, but given the broader scope of problematic editing maybe this is the better forum to deal with it.TheBlueCanoe 18:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Comment - I've noticed that all commenters save the OP were notified of this complaint via ping, and I believe pinging like-minded editors in disputes could be construed as WP:CANVASSING. -Zanhe (talk) 03:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know the stance of the editors I pinged; I only pinged editors who I see were involved with STSC in the past. Zanhe, I am rather surprised that you don't find STSC's edits disruptive. sst✈ 10:50, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I never said STSC's edits were or were not disruptive. I haven't had enough interaction with him to make a judgment (but I do recognize Ohconfucius and you as respectable, constructive editors). All I was trying to say is that it's better to present the evidence here and let uninvolved administrators judge its merit, instead of selectively notifying previously involved people. -Zanhe (talk) 20:05, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

No action, seriously? sst✈ 14:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to see a statement from STSC. Also, pinging is not considered appropriate notification as pings can sometimes fail.

I was caught out once. A ping is only successful if you type in the username correctly and sign the post. If you go back and edit it to complete the ping, it won't work. However, I do see that you posted an ANI notification on their TP in any case. Blackmane (talk) 03:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

First of all, I don't know this user SSTflyer, I have never had any interaction with him. If there's any issue with me, he should have discussed with me in my Talk page. This is just a case of childish hate campaign to discredit another user on personal or political reasons, and it's a pack of lies, e.g. "STSC has a history of blocks and topic bans", etc. I have had opponents in content disputes when I tried to maintain a balanced view in articles, and it's not surprising some of them would want to join in this. There's nothing I need to defend the way I edit in my near 10 years on Wiki; that's why I just could not be bothered to reply to these ridiculous false accusations. STSC (talk) 04:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

This is typical. When faced with grievances over content, STSC throws around accusations of a "hate campaign" for "personal reasons" and otherwise avoids at all costs addressing valid concerns over his/her POV editing. I and others have attempted to reason with you on talk pages countless times and it goes nowhere – your enforce your POV and censorship in an uncompromising, bullying manner. Deleting photographs and well-sourced material from pages does not constitute "maintaining a balanced point of view" – it is politically-driven censorship. Citobun (talk) 05:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Don't lie, we had the 3rd opinion on the image deletion issue and the neutral user agreed to the deletion. On other issues you alone just could not accept other users who have different views from yours and you continue to hold grudges. STSC (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The outcome of that particular instance doesn't change the fact that you frequently censor images for political reasons. For example: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. Accusing others of not accepting different political views is really pot calling the kettle black. I'm not the one blanking and censoring sourced material for political reasons. Citobun (talk) 06:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Not at all censoring and there're good reasons for these edits. Why just brought them on here now if you disputed these edits? Up to now you still could not accept the 3rd opinion on the images in the Hong Kong articles, and it's rather sad you still harbour a long-term grudge against me based on the content disputes in 2014. STSC (talk) 06:53, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It is not a question of a "long-term grudge", but rather your own long-term WP:ADVOCACY. Citobun (talk) 07:13, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

You have jumped on every opportunity to use false accusation to discredit other editors. I've seen this all before. STSC (talk) 10:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Tanbircdq and Israeli politician articles

I would like to bring to wider attention of other admins the edits of Tanbircdq (talk · contribs), whose actions I have come across at Yisrael Katz (politician born 1955). Tanbircdq has a quite clear agenda, adding quotes to articles on Israeli politicians in which they say bad things about the Palestinians. On many of these articles he has added the information several times after being reverted by a number of users; these include:

• Eli Yishai (x4)
• Avi Dichter (x4)
• Michael Ben-Ari (x4)
• Yisrael Katz (x3)
• Omri Sharon (x3)
• Meir Sheetrit (x2)
• Ayelet Shaked (x2)
• Ya'akov Yosef (x1)
• Naftali Bennett (x1)

Also of slight concern is the behaviour of Makeandtoss (talk · contribs), who has magically appeared at several of these articles to restore the content after Tanbircdq's edits have been removed (e.g. here, here, here, here, here, here). I don't know this has happened, but it doesn't look good. I have pointed them towards WP:BALASPS, but this does not seem to have stopped the behaviour. Unfortunately what is happening does not fall under the current Arbcom sanctions for this topic area, but I think it needs some intervention. Cheers, Number 57 22:14, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't remember how I came across these articles, all I know that I reverted the removal of sourced content. I didn't see WP:BALASPS valid enough to remove the quotes. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:26, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I have given a very clear and detailed explanation on the talk page which I will not repeat again here. Number 57 has reverted the edit without adequately responding to the points raised on the talk page and taken the matter to ANI in order to get administrative action taken against me in what would appear to be an underhand way of censorship. In addition, Number 57 himself violated 1RR on the page with his edits here and here without initiating discussion of the matter on the talk page.

What Number 57 has conveniently omitted to mention is that most of the "number of users" who have removed the content from those articles included sock puppet accounts, throwaway IP hoppers who are now prohibited from editing those articles because of ARBPIA3 decision after the high level of disruptive editing that was present.

I would also like to point out Number 57's uncivilised personal attack of "Go away with your agenda please. Get consensus on talk if you insist on this nonsense." in the summary of his revert here.

Nevertheless, I am interested to know what Misplaced Pages policy I am supposed to have actually violated here. Is the accusation of "editing articles with an agenda" an ad hominem term for someone adding sourced content when another thinks WP:IDONTLIKEIT? It would seem that Number 57 himself has an WP:OWN agenda to remove content that shows someone he favours in a "bad light" which (by using his words from the talk page) I believe "has no place on Misplaced Pages". Tanbircdq (talk) 19:00, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

On what basis do you think I favour these politicians? As a Meretz supporter, I think most of them are repugnant; the difference is that I understand the concept of NPOV and that Misplaced Pages is not a place to badmouth your political opponents.

Is anyone going to intervene here? Number 57 19:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I was not referring to all these politicians, just Yisrael Katz, and this was based on your comments on the talk page.

Yes, I agree (not that I have any political opponents) which is why I object to your uncivilised personal attack.

Yes, can someone please intervene about this WP:WIKIHOUNDING? This editor has clearly been stalking me for the past two months which I find very unpleasant and I would like it to stop. Tanbircdq (talk) 21:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, the claim that this is hounding or that I have been stalking you for two months a barefaced lie. The first I saw of you was on the Katz article (and that is the only place I have reverted you). I got those diffs by going back through your editing history (it wasn't hard to find them). Number 57 21:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Aren't all these articles under the editing restrictions/block of the Israel-Palestinian conflict arb case? If so, any party violating that ought to be handled in accord by an uninvolved admin. Anyone around? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
  • As I said at the start, unfortunately the various Arb cases don't cover this kind of problem (which is why they've never solved the problems in the topic area)... Number 57 23:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

My comment on this is that everyone in this area has a POV, that is unavoidable. Suppose, it was true that the agenda of Tanbircdq was to add bad stuff about Israeli politicians. They still have to make an argument on the talk page about whether the additions lead to a more balanced article, whether the stuff is WP:DUE etc., and others have to respond to that. Unless they are disruptively editing, edit-warring, trying to force their version without consensus etc. there is nothing to do here. I would remind people that the WP:ONUS for including content lies on the person adding the content, so Tanbircdq needs to demonstrate consensus, if they are reverted. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:37, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Possible legal threat

Since i consider myself involved with this user, would some kind soul review talk page section with a view to determining if this is a legal threat or other violation of policy? I have not raised the matter with them directly as there has been recent friction and I don't think any query from me would be well received Thanks. Spartaz 22:18, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Is this some sort of punitive fishing expedition for nominating your closure for a DRV? I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, but no need to lash out at me. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

You accused another editor of libel in a section header and I'm asking for an independant opinion on that. I don't see any harm in that myself. Spartaz 22:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I did not accused another editor of libel, I documented their libel. Using a correct legal definition is not the same as making a legal threat. The only thing they have in commons is the word legal. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:51, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I did not accused another editor of libel, I documented their libel.

Ah, welcome to the latest episode of Question Begging Time. --Calton | Talk 10:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I see no clear or inferred legal threat -- samtar 22:23, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm guessing the question here is because of the use of the word "libel" in a section header. However, I read it as a characterization of something, rather than as an implied threat to engage in legal action regarding the so-called "libel". If that's what we are talking about, then that is not an NLT violation. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Good point, I'd second that reasoning -- samtar 22:33, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

It is the correct term for a lie in print form. If he said it to me in person, it would have been slander. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:46, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

No it isn't. The correct NON-LEGAL term for a lie in print is "lie". You're invoking a legal term, with its implications of legal consequences due to damage. So either you don't know what you're talking about or you're trying to sail as close to the wind as you can. --Calton | Talk 10:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I was the target of the comment, and I did not take it as a legal threat in the sense meant by WP:NLT. BMK (talk) 00:23, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

The claim that Beyond My Ken had made was that this "is the third time he's shown up at an article he's never edited before in order to revert one of my edits." The fact is that Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) had edited every one of those articles before BMK did, per the revision statistics for G. W. Pabst (which RAN edited more than four years before BMK), Louis Comfort Tiffany (four-plus years before BMK) and List of mayors of New York City (a year-plus before BMK). I think it's clear that what RAN means is that BMK had been making a false statement in writing that was damaging to RAN's reputation, not that RAN had intended to take BMK to court and file a tort claim of libel. Alansohn (talk) 02:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

OMG! You mean I was wrong!! How nice of you to come to AN/I (and RAN's talk page) and let me know.Of course, you did neglect to mention that RAN's last edit to Louis Comfort Tiffany before he reverted me was in April 2008 , two years before my first edit in July 2010 , so I wouldn't really have noticed him editing the article because he didn't while I was active on it. But, of course, he apparently decided he just had to come back and revert my edit after a 7 year absence; I guess there was nothing that happened on the article in 7 years that stirred his attention.And what about List of mayors of New York City? Yes, indeed, RAN has all of 4 edits on that article, 3 in 2008, and the revert of my edit that, again, brought him out of hibernation after 7 years. . Since I made the first of my edits to that article in March 2010 -- again, two years after his last edit -- there was no reason that I would know that he had edited it before me because he didn't edit it when I was.Alansohn, are you seeing a pattern here? Yes, you are correct that RAN had edited those articles before me, and I was incorrect in saying he hadn't, but the essence of what I said is true: RAN decided to revert my edits after 7 years of inactivity on those articles, so I was quite justified in describing his behavior as verging on harassment. I don't say that it is harassment yet, but it will be if he keeps on appearing to specifically revert edits of mine on articles which he may have edited in the distant past, but which he has been totally inactive on during the time I have been working on them. BMK (talk) 04:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Even if BMK didn't see it as a legal threat, RAN should not be throwing the word "libel" around. "Untrue" should be sufficient. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As BMK made multiple false statements, the characterization is entirely accurate. BMK's story now is that he was indeed making false statements alleging that RAN had never edited the articles previously, but that he was justified in making these baseless accusations because there is some imaginary "essence of what I said is true" according to him. Thanks to Misplaced Pages's editing history feature, it's clear that RAN edited the articles because they were on his watchlist, he had edited them years before BMK and now the problem is that the edits were too long ago so that BMK now feels that he WP:OWNs these articles so naturally anyone else editing them is guilty of harassment. Bugs, when other editors make repeated false accusations about you and your edits, feel free to limit yourself to "untrue". Alansohn (talk) 04:34, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't use legalistic terms like "libel" if someone states an untruth about me. And to take libel to court and win, one would have to prove harm. He alleges he was falsely accused of making edits at some point in time. How much would the jury award in a case like that? A shiny new 25 cent piece? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Use whatever term you want. "Lie". "Misrepresentation". "Prevarication". "Fib". Pick whatever term best matches the circumstances of BMK's out-and-out falsehood. Whatever works best for you. Just don't use "truth". Alansohn (talk) 05:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

CLAIM of falsehood. See begging the question.

Of course, a better thing for RAN to do would be to simply grow the hell up instead of throwing around pseudo-legal terms he doesn't understand. --Calton | Talk 10:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

How about "honest mistake"? That at least has the benefit of being accurate. Reyk _YO! 10:30, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I would have bought the "honest mistake" bit if it wasn't User:Beyond My Ken who was the one making the blatantly false claims. BMK is a regular here at ANI, and is fully aware of how to review edit histories for each article he claimed RAN had never edited; He's no noob. BMK's consistent inability to work with others and to edit war over the most trivial of issues -- size of a college seal, inclusion of a full name in an article lead, personal attacks like fuck "pleonasm", it's a perfectly underestandable sentence, etc. -- demonstrates the source of the problem. If only BMK had bothered to research his threats or to back off and apologize when his claims were proven false, we wouldn't be here. It's this pattern of belligerent and abusive behavior by BMK that brings us here. Alansohn (talk) 16:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm getting the impression that Alansohn doesn't like me, since he shows up any time my name comes up on the noticeboards to lay out his latest litany of my liabilities to the project, and to insist that the harshest possible sanctions be placed on me. It's probably just a coincidence that this started soon after I expressed the opinion here that Alansohn was the primary problem in the dispute between himself and Magnolia677. I'd be the last person to claim that I'm the perfect Wikipedian, but I'm not sure what his obsession about me has to do with whether what RAN said was a legal threat or not. BMK (talk) 19:33, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

To answer Alansohn's specific and relevant allegation, I did not look up the history of those pages when I posted this comment on my talk page, I was going only on my experience of editing those articles without having run into RAN - as I outlined above. I did the detailed research only when I posted my comment above, following Alansohn's statement that I was lying, since I wanted to know how we could have two completely different takes on what had occurred. As seen above, the answer is that -- at least on two of the three articles -- we never overlapped, which is why I thought he had never edited them. That was, as I said, my error. As others have said, it was not a deliberate choice on my part to post something that was not accurate. BMK (talk) 20:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, I'm sure that you acknowledge that there is a big difference between 1) someone following you and undoing your edits from article to article that they have never edited before and 2) someone who is editing articles that they have edited before that are on their watchlist which they edited well before you ever touched the articles. What you stated as fact -- "Today is the third time he's shown up at an article he's never edited before in order to revert one of my edits." -- makes a rather specific allegation that is factually false and has been proven so. You don't own any of these articles and your recollections are no substitute for backing up your assumptions with facts. Furthermore, you acknowledge that you did recall an editing overlap with RAN on at least one of these articles. No one expects you to be a "perfect Wikipedian" -- I'm certainly not and your history makes my opinion clear regarding your track record -- but at a minimum you need to exercise far greater care in making these kinds of inherently inflammatory personal attacks. I'm glad that I was able to identify the relevant policy and address the edit war at G. W. Pabst, as I had done not long ago at Triborough Bridge, but I hope that no outside intervention will be needed to resolve any of your edit wars in the future. A clear commitment on your part to avoid such edit warring and attacks will help alleviate community concerns here. Alansohn (talk) 21:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

No, Alansohn, there is no real difference between someone who has never edited an article before and then shows up to revert the edits of another user (who just happened to have recently reported his violations of an ArbCom sanction), and someone who has never found any reason to edit an article in 7 years, but nevertheless reappears to revert the edits of another user (who just happened to have recently reported his violations of an ArbCom sanction), none at all. It's a distinction without a difference. BMK (talk) 23:33, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

BMK, do you really believe that "there is no real difference between someone who has never edited an article before and then shows up to revert the edits of another user"? Are you arguing that you WP:OWN every article you edit, and that any editor who edits any of your articles that's on their watchlist because they have edited in the past is necessarily harassing you? How recent do the other editor's edits have to be in order for them to be allowed to edit your articles? You've been involved with dozens upon dozens of edit wars and every one of those editors now has to avoid your edits of your articles? Please explain how your policy works. Alansohn (talk) 00:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Alansohn, I cannot hold it in any longer, you have pierced my deepest and darkest Misplaced Pages secret. I must confess here and now, in front of the assembled multitudes of AN/I, that in my heart of hearts, I do believe that I am the sole owner of all the 30K+ articles that I have edited in my 10 1/2 years here, and that no one should be allowed to edit any of them except with my expressed approval ... in advance. Obviously, I am a very, very naughty person indeed, and should be sent to bed without my dessert. BMK (talk) 01:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and Alansohn, please do not ping me again, I'm following this thread and do not need you to call me to read it. I can come and read your tiresome comments all on my own, just like a big boy. BMK (talk) 01:39, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

It is incredible that Alansohn would accuse anyone else of OWNership for doing exactly he does. Talk about hypocrisy, coming from the number 1 owner on Misplaced Pages! Jacona (talk) 03:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

JaconaFrere, following an editor around maliciously from article to article, as you have consistently done with articles I edit across Misplaced Pages, is an example of WP:HOUNDING; I've provided you with a list on multiple occasions, as you've requested. If that were the case here, I might well agree with Beyond My Ken. What bothers BMK here is that other editors are editing articles on their watchlist, ones that he claims ownership over. There's the difference. Alansohn (talk) 03:49, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

That's the very basis of your ownership. You claim I follow you from article to article because I occasionally edit New Jersey articles, not because there is any factual basis. Many of these have been on my watchlist, just as you say these other editors articles are. You are exactly the malefactor you claim BMK to be. Jacona (talk) 10:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, why stop at 30K? I've decided to claim ownership over all of the 5,027,940 articles on Misplaced Pages. Alansohn, you pinged me again. I believe I asked you not to do that. BMK (talk) 04:34, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Kind hypocritical for the Emperor of New Jersey to accuse others of having ownership issues... Reyk _YO! 07:34, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not a legal threat as there is no threat to take legal action. It hardly passes the 'intended to chill discussion' line either. However it *is* a personal attack to accuse another editor of libelling you. Libel has a strict definition which is not covered by BMK's actions. (Merely writing something that later turns out to be not 100% accurate is not libel as RAN knows perfectly well.) Given that BMK's above post quite clearly demonstrates a pattern of behaviour by RAN that is hardly good-faith editing and bordering on harrassment, I suggest an interaction ban with BMK. (I would suggest a 1-way ban, but they rarely work, and BMK has previously said he wants to not interact with RAN so this shouldnt be an issue for him) Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:24, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not a legal threat. Just as if an editor were to say "That admin is assaulting users with his mop", does not mean the editor is threatening to have the admin charged with assault. The section header "BMK libel" says to me that the content will focus on supposed lies posted by BMK about the editor. Not a threat. - WOLFchild 18:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposed: Interaction ban between RAN and BMK

Support. As proposer. No comments on each other, no reverting each other on articles (with the usual BLP/vandalism exceptions) and so on. Given the diffs provided by BMK, RAN is clearly not editing with the best motives. Not to mention the blatant symantic wikilawyering which is a habit with RAN (anyone familiar with his history regarding pushing the boundaries of his existing sanctions should be aware this is a common road for him.) As 1-way bans dont work and BMK has indicated previously he does not want to interact further with RAN, this is the quickest and most efficient solution to the issue. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:48, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support- RAN needs to leave BMK the hell alone. More generally, he needs to altogether stop pursuing people he's disagreed with. Reyk _YO! 11:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support- shame it needs to come to this, but I think this would allow both editors to cool down, and focus on building an encyclopedia -- samtar 16:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support, as 2-way, and with no opinion on my part as to who is more or less at fault. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:12, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The editors seem to have overlapping interests in the same sort of articles but seem to have some difficulty knowing whether the other party shares this interest. They are therefore likely to keep bumping into each and so must just learn to get along. Neither of them brought this matter here and it seems clear that talk of legal threats is an over-reaction . Further escalation would tend to make matters worse rather than better. Andrew D. (talk) 20:19, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support - BMK needs to leave RAN the hell alone. Carrite (talk) 23:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - As one of the two subjects of the proposed interaction ban, I've been thinking about it since I first saw the proposal this morning. My first thought was that it was a good idea, that it would get RAN out of my life, which I really want. My second thought was that it really should be a one-way ban, but I changed my mind on that: a two-way ban would be an effective tool to help myself from commenting on RAN, so I accept that if there is to be an I-Ban, it should be mutual. I do, however, have some concerns.Almost anyone who is familiar with RAN's history, or especially with the ArbCom cast brought against him and the various AE discussions it spawned, knows that RAN is a classic boundary-pusher. If RAN is told, for instance, not to create articles, he turns a redirect into an article and claims that this is not creating an article, so he has to be told again, specifically, not to do that. This kind of thing has happened over and over again with him, and his just keeps probing. So, how do you stop a boundary-pusher from pushing the boundaries of an I-Ban?As it stands now, the general way one deals with an I-Ban infraction, or multiple I-Ban infractions, is to bring the case to AN/I. AN/I is, as we all know, often not the best place to get a straight-forward evaluation of a problem, what with the dramah-mongering, the cliques, the long-held grudges, and the Alansohns of the world popping up to muddy the waters. Therefore, I suggest that someone, an individual, preferably an admin, be appointed to be sort of the "special master" for the I-Ban. This would be someone either RAN or I could go to with a complaint, who would investigate, and then come back with "Yes, you're right, I've done X about it" or "No, you're being oversensitive, that's not a violation of the ban." It would be nice if the special master's decision was final, so problems could be solved and not fester.So, those are my concerns. I'm generally in favor of the idea of a mutual interaction ban, but I would appreciate it if some thought could go into the problem I've outlined. BMK (talk) 23:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support One Way I-Ban - RAN should leave BMK alone. LavaBaron (talk) 01:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support two-way IBAN. BMK wants to leave RAN alone and RAN needs to leave BMK alone. Sounds like a 2-way IBAN. --DHeyward (talk) 04:43, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Attempt to subvert the AfD process

Legacypac (talk · contribs) has been, in my opinion, gaming the system by subverting the AfD process by adding redirects to articles after his AfD's were unsuccessful.

I tried to discuss this on his talk page, but I did not feel his responses were adequate. I also asked if--in good faith--he would revert all the redirects he had added, and he will not.

It started when Legacypac attempted to bulk-delete the articles of a number of beauty pageant contestants here. The result, closed by User:DGG, was "keep all for the time being; renominate separately".

Following that, Legacypac followed a similar pattern to have several of the articles removed.

For example, he nominated Ashleigh Lollie for deletion here. The result was "no consensus". So, he instead redirected the article here.

He nominated Claira Hollingsworth for speedy deletion here. It was declined, so he instead added a redirect here.

At Courtney Byrd, Legacypac added a speedy delete here, and it was declined. He then nominated this article for deletion here, but then, according to his edit summary, "no nomination page created for more than two hours", so he removed his AfD, and instead added a redirect here.

This pattern continued for most of the other articles which were included in original bulk-delete AfD. Again, I have tried to discuss what appears to be a blatant attempt to subvert the AfD process, but Legacypac felt his actions were in compliance with policy. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 01:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no insight into the issue raised by Magnolia677 specifically, however, in a related matter - after Legacypac nominated Russia–Syria–Iran–Iraq coalition for deletion, and the AfD failed, he immediately executed a BOLD merge of the entire article to a different article, sans discussion . As the topic was under Discretionary Sanctions few people wanted to unmerge it, appeals to Legacypac to unmerge it himself were rebuffed , an attempt to unmerge it by Mhhossein was immediately reverted by Legacypac , and an admin ultimately had to be brought in to execute the unmerge . As the article was in the DYK queue at the time, this created a tremendous amount of hassle. LavaBaron (talk) 01:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

There is a strong argument that these college co-eds fail WP:BIO, WP:N, WP:15MOF and there is lots of precedent for deletion. There is a strong argument that the User:DGG close of Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Madison_Guthrie covering 42 titles was against consensus. I count 16 editors seeking Delete or Redirect for all (or nearly all) the articles on the list vs 2 or maybe 3 who wanted to keep (generally without a policy based reason). Subsequently some of the 42 were sent individually to AfD as test cases. So far 6 were completely deleted Natasha_Martinez, Lizzy_Olsen, Brooke_Fletcher, Brittany_McGowan Elizabeth_Cardillo, Haley_Denise_Laundrie. Others like Ylianna Guerra have be turned into redirects to the appropriate contest page. We still have quite a few like Taylor Even which reads in its entirety "Taylor Even was crowned Miss Iowa USA 2015. She represented Iowa at Miss USA 2015 but Unplaced." that have not been sent to AfD or redirected. Obviously stuff like this is exactly what WP:NOPAGE addresses.

To bad the editor who started this thread as not addressed the issue of WP:NOPAGE, raised in the redirections and on my talk page, but I suppose they have no answer. Instead that editor reversed my redirects without a policy based rational, so I've sent the articles to AfD where I expect they will be deleted like their sister articles. Legacypac (talk) 02:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As for LavaBaron's completely off topic complaint about something that happened months ago, Russia–Syria–Iran–Iraq coalition is an awful misleading POV title covering a hard to understand segment of a larger topic Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War. Thanks for the reminder to work on cleaning up that mess. Legacypac (talk) 03:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

(1) I closed the first AfD because the nomination was against the meaning of WP:Deletion policy. Had I not done so, any close at all would probably have been overturned at Deletion Review, with the instruction to list separately. I advised renominating individually a few at a time; Instead, the individual nominations were nonetheless placed all together in one batch at a single time. I commented at that time "renominating in very large groups the way these are being done is not a good idea, because it defeats the purpose of letting people have time to look for individual sources."

(2)I commented at the separate nominations that "personally, though, I think sufficient sources are likely to be found only when there is a substantial subsequent career" . I personally do not like these articles., which I thing generally contrary to the spirit of an encycopedia. I think we should have a guideline not to have them. But we don't, and the way to decide is therefore to decide individual cases by AfD. As LegacyPak correctly notes, there were various results from these discussions.

(3)A non-consensus close could reasonably be followed by a discussion about redirection or merging. Doing it without consensus is trying to substitute a different close. We can have a different close--but it requires some sort of discussion, either DRV or another AfD or a discussion on merging or redirecting. Doing so without discussion in a case like this seems to be effectually replacing the community opinion by one's own. (that I happen to share that opinion is irrelevant here.). I think the appropriate way to deal with that would be to revert,the redirection, and then discuss it. This does not require coming here, or any admin action. DGG ( talk ) 04:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

TThanks DGG. It turns out we do have a policy WP:NOPAGE that was never considered before and avoids the question of notability. It's being used successfully to redirect super old people articles now. If someone disagrees with redirect they (as the OP has done) revert and discuss how NOPAGE does not apply. Coming here is not the answer. Legacypac (talk) 05:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As the editor who originally introduced the NOPAGE concept to the cleanup of the longevity walled garden, let me say this. I considered that, in principle, merges based on NOPAGE can be done boldly. But where there's a reasonable chance of controversy, such a merge should only follow a talk-page discussion. (And in the case of longevity, I felt, with the concurrence of others, that the additional transparency of AfD would be even better -- healthier for the community -- given the high emotions associated for so long with that topic.) Either way, a bold merge soon after an AfD that ended Keep is like a "bold" merge soon after a merge discussion that ended No merge -- it's not bold, it contrary to recent consensus. A new discussion -- wherever -- is needed. EEng (talk) 05:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

You expressed your opinion that it was an "awful POV misleading title" in the AfD you made and the community decided that was not the case. Your singular opinion does not override the community consensus, particularly for an article under Discretionary Sanctions. And immediately slapping a third and fourth Merge proposal on that article in response to this observation in ANI, as you have just done, along with the intervention "thanks for the reminder," comes across as a little bit of a middle-finger in response to this observation. LavaBaron (talk) 08:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: If an AfD is closed as keep (or even no consensus), it must not be redirected or merged. Either of those actions would be in violation of the close. If those actions have been done, the actions should be immediately reverted now. And Legacypac needs to agree he understands he cannot do that in the future. The only cause post-AfD to redirect an article is if the close was redirect. The only cause post-AfD to merge an article is if the close was merge. Alternatively, after a failed AfD the article in question can undergo the specific detailed process (all of the very precise steps) of WP:MERGEPROP. If Legacypac does not understand and agree to these policies, he needs to undergo a topic ban on creating AfDs (and possibly also on redirecting or merging). Softlavender (talk) 05:45, 9 December 2015 (UTC); edited 05:50, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Softlavender: I don't think that that's entirely true. Just because there is a decision to keep the content of an article doesn't mean that the content has to be kept in that article. Also, if something is closed as no consensus, that usually doesn't preclude further discussion about the article's merits. pbp 13:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct. And if a discussion took place after the No Consensus result at AFD, and the consensus there was to redirect or merge? No one would blink. The concern here, I think, is that Legacypac didn't start such a discussion, but relied on BOLD in a situation where it was inappropriate. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Purplebackpack89, to repeat, for an article to be merged after a keep or no consensus AfD close, one would have to follow all of the very precise steps at WP:MERGEPROP. There couldn't be merely a very informal quick ad-hoc discussion and agreement to merge; any such informally discussed (or undiscussed) merge would have to be immediately reverted as violating the AfD close. Softlavender (talk) 00:27, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Comment: I just want to say Legacypac is a valuable contributor at AfD and has done a tremendous job cleaning up the Neverending Neelix Nightmare® – He's probably spent 100 hours on this in the last month going through all the ridiculous redirects and walled garden articles. I cannot rain enough barnstars on his wall. I hope this is taken into account and a topic ban is not pursued. I'm sure he just needs more clarity on what to do with no-consensus outcomes since there seems to be some gray area per DGG. —Мандичка 😜 06:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Redirecting a title citing NOPAGE that has never been to AfD is fine (I've done that a few times). Since this complaint started on my talk page I've been sending similar articles to AfD instead and I fully expect an ANi thread complaining that I'm clogging up AfDs with articles that should have been BOLDly redirected citing NOPAGE. Now, if anyone has an issue with a SPECIFIC page I've redirected, please reverse the redirect so I can AfD it next. That already happened on the two listed above that were part of a group AfD. The third article mentioned was just a technical decline Prod, which should not shelter the article from being turned into a redirect months later. Legacypac (talk) 07:12, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Dealing with material where there is a possibly unreasonable concentration of interest is difficult--WP is very susceptible to people doing this, and I doubt we will ever find a good balance between disposing of problems quickly & definitively and doing so with full fair consideration of each possibility/ When I deal with such analogous groups of material, I usually do not get everything right--it can be very hard to predict what consensus is going to be. Legacypac is doing at least as well as I do in similar situations. All that can be asked of someone is that they reconsider what they are doing if it is questioned, and I try to be objective enough to do so, and I think he is also. DGG ( talk ) 07:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Legacypac: I'm not weighing in on the substance of this thread at this time. However, flagging for future reference that the term "co-eds" referring to female college students is outmoded and may be perceived as demeaning and therefore should not be used. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Just a quick look at all of these articles is concerning to me. There is excessive personal detail including educational information, dates of birth, parents names etc. These are not well known people, and even if the information can be found, we shouldn't be further disseminating it as per WP:NPF. Without a lot of this filler information the articles would be very bare indeed (which to me indicates the lack of notability). All of these articles need reviewing, both for notability and content. Polequant (talk) 16:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Legacypac's behavior of late is indeed questionable. He started this MFD where two of his reasons were blatantly wrong. One- that there was no member in the WikiProject when in the same nomination he acknowledged a member. Second- That there were no edits to the page since its last nomination (Less than a year ago also by Legacypac. I'll let others judge whether this second nomination by the same editor was proper or not.) when there obviously was. Lastly he BLP Prod WP:Lexy Schenk when her article did have reference from a WP:RS in it. As seen here...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:31, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Subverting AfD by using AfD

• I heartily endorse a topic ban for Legacypac (talk · contribs) on all beauty pageant-related material, he clearly either does not understand the subject matter, or has an open hostility and bias on this issue; either way he is not able to contribute effectively in this area, and is creating a lot of unnecessary work for others. Please see here for more on this, specifically, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ali Wallace, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rebecca Anderson, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allison Cook (Miss Oregon), Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Caroline McGowan, and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Nichole Mead. Ejgreen77 (talk) 11:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

LOL I added an appropriate subsection heading for Ejgreen77 who has NEVER voted against deleting or redirecting a pageant winner page, including voting keep on many pages that were deleted, which strongly suggests bias. I, on the other hand can tell the difference between a BIO about someone that has done something other then win one contest and a bio about a school teacher, future stay at home mom, or univ. student that got in a looks contest to win some scholarships. See Caroline McGowan for example where they just voted to keep an article that links http://dorkychickinlipstick.com/ and calls the subject an actress that has no acting credits to speak of. And to keep Allison Cook (Miss Oregon) "Cook entered her first pageant after learning they could help pay for her college education."Cook entered her first pageant after learning they could help pay for her college education. She sought alternatives after concussion injuries forced her to leave the Oregon Tech basketball and volleyball teams. On April 28, 2012, Cook won the Miss City of Sunshine 2012 title and more than $6,500 in scholarship prizes" and she studies radiology. And to keep Ali Wallace which is a formula cut and paste of the others replacing name, school, major, parent, hair and eye color. Pretty girl who enjoyed 15 minutes of fame and went back to obscurity. Heck recently people were seriously trying to delete a bio I started Candy Carson and she has actually done some notable things and was portrayed next to Cuba Gooding, Jr. in a movie, plus married to Ben Carson. Legacypac (talk) 12:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

In all fairness there are a few editors who mass nominate beauty pageant/pageant winners for deletion. It's not just Legacypac. There needs to be a notability guideline established by experts in this area. Personally I feel anyone who wins the mainstream national title of any country, whether it's Miss USA, Miss Canada or Miss Armenia, should be notable. State winners aka Miss Oregon are not so clear and we need some kind of guideline. —Мандичка 😜 12:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

BTW, check out this link that Legacypac included in his AfD nomination. Let me put it this way, If I were to include such a link in an AfD nomination, I would fully expect to get a topic ban, if not an out-and-out block. Ejgreen77 (talk) 13:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: The problem is that it's very difficult to establish any kind of notability guideline, simply because third-party media coverage of pageants varies wildly from country-to-country (with the US having, by far, the most). Miss South Carolina undoubtedly gets 100 times as much media coverage as Miss Swaziland does, yet there will be some that will say keep one and not the other, because one is a national pageant and one is a sub-national pageant. Other people will argue the other way, saying that one meets WP:GNG and the other doesn't. In general, I think that GNG probably needs to be the objective standard that everything on Misplaced Pages is held up to. Ejgreen77 (talk) 13:55, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with that link. John Oliver has a hugely popular show and there's nothing inappropriate in the video - there is valid criticism of pageants and their objectification of women's appearances. —Мандичка 😜 15:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

But, it's the kind of editorial content that is totally inappropriate and off-topic in an AfD nomination. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Don't use AfD - get dragged to ANi. Use AfD get dragged to ANi. Can't beat the fans of a dying, widely criticized industry.

My criteria is if they win beyond winning a state title or go on to any sort of notable career the article can stay. If the only info beyond trival stuff is that they won a contest, redirect to the contest page. Legacypac (talk) 12:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: Heaven forbid, somebody who actually wants to get rid of poorly-sourced, non-notable articles. pbp 13:04, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
  • But he's nominating articles like Nichole Mead and Rebecca Anderson with dozens of reliable sources, ones that clearly cross the verifiability and notability thresholds, and ignoring WP:NTEMP in his rationales. - Dravecky (talk) 19:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• A topic ban on "beauty pageant-related material" would completely miss the point: the problem is not specifically to do with "beauty pageant-related material": it is to do with trying to undermine the outcomes of discussions and consultations whenever those outcomes are contrary to what Legacypac would like. Legacypac needs to realise that if he or she starts a deletion discussion, he or she must then accept the outcome of that discussion: it is not OK to say, in effect, "Let's have a discussion on whether this should be deleted, so that if the answer is 'yes' then I will accept that decision, and it will be deleted, while if the answer is 'no' then I can ignore that decision, and find another way of effectively deleting it."
• Legacypac, if you continue to do what you have been doing, you are likely to be blocked. I also suggest you may find it helpful to read WP:FORUMSHOP, which is not exactly about what you have been doing, but it is essentially the same. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 13:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - ridiculous. AfD is a group process and it can be worked out. Further clarification is needed in some gray areas. Legacypac is not being purposely disruptive and understands the compromise needed. IMO AfD is probably the least rewarding yet one of the most vital areas on Misplaced Pages, and the editors who nevertheless spend time there trying to weed out non-notable articles need support, not constant criticism. A topic ban for Legacypac would harm the project - and I say that as someone who recommended keep on the Russia–Syria–Iran–Iraq coalition article. —Мандичка 😜 13:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: "Legacypac is not being purposely disruptive and understands the compromise needed." I'm curious what exactly you see that lead you to state this. Personally, I see nothing to suggest this (in fact, very much the opposite). FYI, this is not Legacypac's first go-round at this, there was a similar mass-AfD dust-up in February 2015, so Legacypac knows perfectly well that at least 50% of these AfD's he's opened are going to close as "keep." Ejgreen77 (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

And, as far as his motivations go, please see his comment immediately above about a "dying, widely criticized industry." Ejgreen77 (talk) 14:38, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Which is why there is so little RS coverage today. As a child I remember most Queens getting local and regional press. Now they have do/say something extraordinary to get even a name check. It is usually a big struggle to find sources outside official pageant sites (and that is kept up only for a year), local person wins award, Facebook and blogs. It is different if they get on a big TV show or something, then we treat them like any other actor. Legacypac (talk) 15:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe that's true in Canada, but in the US, state-level pageants are a big deal, and get plenty of RS coverage in third-party news sources here. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:24, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Then a Google search like this for the state closest to me right now should find more then 253 results (all news results for all time for both the annual event and all girls that ever went to the "Miss Washington USA" pageant, not just winners). It is barely noise level. Legacypac (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Most of these state winners, IMHO, don't meet GNG. I've fought to keep articles on pageants and national pageant winners from around the world (which is why I know Legacypac is not the only who noms them for AfD). But I really don't think most state winners make the cut. Just being Miss New Hampshire is not really enough IMO unless there is significant coverage in some other area. Nominating state winners is good cleanup IMHO. And again, there needs to be a guideline. Pageants are competitions after all and equivalent sport guidelines exist on notability, so why not make one for pageants? —Мандичка 😜 14:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: Please see my comment immediately above. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:05, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support and Expand On review of the individual cases, and not just the method of editing but the tone used by Legacypac in interacting with other editors who come to him expressing concern or question, there seems to be a dangerous sense of ownership and unwillingness to work in a collaborative spirit. Really, had I chosen to make it an issue at the time, he could have been blocked under discretionary sanctions for the stunt he pulled above vis a vis the Syria article; I only didn't because I try to avoid the mess that is those topics and only came across it via DYK. LavaBaron (talk) 13:50, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

After I proposed AfD (which closed with advise to discuss merge at talk and good support for a merge in the AfD) I propose merge to talk on Oct 28. Only LavaBaron responded Oppose with no clear policy reason. I completed a merge on Nov 1 (based on insufficient opposition at talk and recent support in AfD, but was reverted. Then on Nov 5 another editor proposed Delete at AfD but that closed no consensus with people suggesting merge again. Now I started a more formal merge discussion and you take offense? That is not forum shopping its following process. Legacypac (talk) 14:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban but suggest the editor avoid making personal comments about others - such comments are uniformly disregarded by closers at AfD, and tend to make some feel that the poster is more invested in deleting stuff he/she does not like than in finding out what the consensus of the general community evinced on the AfD page is. Collect (talk) 14:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - No topic ban. He does need to watch how he interacts with others and remember to discuss content, not users. If he demonstrates incivility or personal attacks, he can definitely be blocked on those grounds. However, he is following the proper process and using AFD for what it's designed to discuss. The lack of understanding of a subject matter is a learning opportunity, and certainly not a reason in itself to propose a ban. ~Oshwah~ 17:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Oshwah: But, over the past year he has sent literally dozens of pageant-related bio articles to AfD, and only a small handful of them have either ended up as "delete" or "merge/redirect" closes, with the vast majority of them closing as either "keep" or "no consensus." And yet, he continues to send more. At what point is the process simply being abused? Ejgreen77 (talk) 18:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Ejgreen77 - I completely acknowledge your response; I agree that the AFD process can be prone to abuse by anyone who wants to push an agenda or disrupt the process with excessive nominations of articles (especially if the articles clearly do not meet the criterion for nominating it for deletion). I'm trying to find some edits, any edits, that demonstrate that this person has an unambiguous viewpoint or agenda against this topic subject. So far, I'm not finding any. I want to assume good faith here - I think that the user should be warned about his nominations of articles, and that continued nomination of articles that clearly should not be deleted can result in blocking, as doing so is disruptive. After blocks have proven ineffective, I'd be much more open to a conversation about banning. ~Oshwah~ 21:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

My reason for bringing this to ANI was not because this editor was nominating these articles for deletion. It was because--after being unsuccessful at getting these articles deleted through AfD--he then added a redirect. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

i recall there is a way to check the % of deletes on nominations and %of time that an editor's vote meets consensus. I think I saw it in RFA. It would be bad to have a 100% delete on noms - that would suggest you are only sending snow deletes to AfD/RfD and not using the appropriate alternitives. I work hard at cleanup and I've sent literally Thousands of articles and redirects into successful deletion or redirection. I'm sure that stats will bear that out. I went through all the Oregon pagent template and only nomed the ones with no claim to fame outside one event, You can see even in the last 36 hours I made changes, maintenance tagged, proposed merges etc to many pageant articles I did not AfD. On the flip side I bet Ejgreen77 has Never voted to delete or redirect Any pageant article, and I've seen them comment on plenty. Therefore the editor pushing for a topic ban on me should be Boomeranged for they are the one with the demonstratable bias. This editor should serious show a single past delete vote in this topic or face a topic ban themselves for making false statements against me here.

Given that I have a long-standing personal policy against voting "delete" in any AfD debates, pageant related or otherwise, it's not terribly surprising. Not that I haven't seen plenty of articles that I thought should have been deleted, but in those cases, I simply abstain from voting. But, if you're looking for examples, I already gave one further down the page of a pageant article that I think is questionable. And, right off the top of my head, here's a pageant-related article that's right up your alley. It was sent to AfD and somehow closed as "keep," I thought it probably should have been deleted. Ejgreen77 (talk) 05:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose the XFD classic damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't problem. If a bunch of similar items have similar problems and you nominate just one, the community yells about why are you targeting that one; you nominate them all and the community demands each be nominated and judged individually. So here, an editor does the latter and the discussion basically invites individual nominations, which the editor does, and now someone wants to ban the editor. Really??? Moreover, we have editors who seem to want a litmus test as suggested above on how close ones RFA !votes match consensus, as if whether an editor's view matching consensus in one place has bearing on the value of that editor's view anywhere. That sort of marginalization is particularly distasteful given the current political discourse in the US and ought to be rejected. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment @Oshwah: and any other users who think that Legacypac is acting in good faith here, check out some of the whoppers that were told (multiple times!) in this nomination. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Are pageant winners notable?

Moved content discussion to here. No comment on previous sections. --MASEM (t) 02:41, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thinking of what other annual contests exist, I searched the biggest Rodeo in Canada List_of_Calgary_Stampede_Rodeo_Champions. There is just one article on one winner - a two sentence stub J.B. Mauney. No dozens of articles on each event with succession boxes and who their parents are, what they studied, where they went to school blah blah blah. I can't think of any contests, outside politics) that we give SO much coverage too, and we avoid most of the trivia in the politician articles. The trivia goes into the pageant articles because, without it, you have nothing that does not fit on a list. If we applied the same standards to pageant winners as we apply to other topic areas, this debate would not even be happening. Legacypac (talk) 16:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• 1.) WP:OTHERSTUFF 2.) Lack of editor interest in one particular area should not preclude other editors from developing articles in a completely unrelated field. 3.) At the end of the day, it's all about WP:GNG; if you think that individual rodeo cowboys have sufficient third-party coverage to warrant articles, by all means, go ahead and create them. Ejgreen77 (talk) 17:16, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Largely not, no. In most cases there is no coverage of them outside the context of the pageant. Pageantcruft is a plague on Misplaced Pages and has been for a long time. Guy (Help!) 17:33, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• All pageant winners? No, of course not, but the state-level winners for the two major national pageants (Miss America and Miss USA)? Based on the extensive ongoing coverage by reliable sources, clearly yes. (Other contests that receive as much or more attention on Misplaced Pages include reality television competitions, sports at all levels, literary prizes, academic prizes, literary prizes, the Oscars, the Emmys, the Tonys, and so on.) - Dravecky (talk) 19:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Like the 111 Google News hits for "Miss Oregon USA" or the 58 hits in books (covering all winners over the years and the contest itself and not all RS of course)? Is that "extensive ongoing coverage by reliable sources"? All that coverage barely justifies the Miss Oregon USA article. Legacypac (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Not to try to trivialize this too much, but from what I've seen of pageant winners, WP:BLP1E readily applies, in that the only event they are connected to is winning the pageant, meaning that most winners are not notable (although we can certainly use lists and tables to document then) Obviously, if they have done more before and/or after that is of note, then normal notability rules apply (as such with Caitlin Upton. And this is not to suggest that anyone winning an aware is not notable per BLP1E, but it is due to the nature of what pageants are: the participants are not being ranked on past merit but the there-and-now, as opposed to other awards like Nobels, Oscars, etc. where it is based on past merit that usually can be documented to a great degree, so BLP1E would not apply. --MASEM (t) 21:07, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. the majority of them have no actual claim to notability and are never heard of again. Guy (Help!) 22:20, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:NTEMP covers the fact that once notability is achieved, it does not need to be sustained. And, as far as the whole BLP1E thing goes, please see this excellent comment, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Ironically, one of the articles currently sitting at AfD, Rachel Berry (Miss Oregon) concerns a contestant who won a state-level title, then was forced to resign it less than three weeks later. On that particular article I do believe there are legitimate BLP1E concerns, due to the extremely short nature of her time as a titleholder. Thus there are no news stories of her making public appearances as Miss Oregon, no "preparing for Miss America" articles, and no subsequent appearance at the national pageant. So, on that particular article there are some legitimate BLP1E concerns, IMHO. But, your average state titleholder who won her state title, made numerous public appearances throughout the year, and represented her state on the nationally televised national pageant? No, no BLP1E concerns, there. Ejgreen77 (talk) 05:11, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The question is begged if notability was met to begin with in terms of NTEMP. And BLP1E still applies to a pageant winner that would have media appearances after the fact but otherwise nothing notable. Classic example: JetBlue flight attendant incident is not about the person involved as that is basically how BLP1E is applied. Similarly for pageants, it is rarely the winner but the event itself as a whole. --MASEM (t) 05:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think ANI is the best place to debate notability. But as I said before, national winners are notable IMO as they receive significant coverage for the year and go on to compete in Miss World or whatever. Significant coverage is significant coverage - there is no requirement that anyone actually accomplish anything. —Мандичка 😜 10:48, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

"Significant coverage is significant coverage - there is no requirement that anyone actually accomplish anything." I agree completely, but like I said earlier, most of these US state-level winners will get 100 times as much third-party media coverage as, say, most of the people who competed in Miss Earth 2015. Heck, in some of these cases (Miss Congo (RDC), Miss Moldova, Miss Swaziland, Miss Kyrgyzstan, etc.) I'm not really all that certain that the national pageant itself is particularly notable - never mind the individual winners. Ejgreen77 (talk) 12:05, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You'd actually be surprised - in some of these smaller countries, a larger percentage of the population knows about "Miss (Country)." It's a lot bigger deal for anyone to be competing and representing their country abroad, and they get a lot of attention not only when they win their pageant but when they go to Miss Universe and other pageants. I on the other hand have no idea who Miss America is this year, but that's because American culture is overloaded with celebrities who are world famous. Angola naturally is different. —Мандичка 😜 13:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Of course BLP1E applies. And as I commented above, the level of personal detail on these pages is grossly excessive. (And in the one AfD I commented on, the highest profile source doesn't even mention the person in question, and went on about the person's educational history and other trivia that is completely unencyclopedic. And the article was written by an admin. They should really know better.) Polequant (talk) 12:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

And here we have that same admin reinserting dates of birth, parents occupations etc. Seriously? Polequant (talk) 12:29, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Can we please move this conversation to Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (people)? —Мандичка 😜 13:45, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Started at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)#Pageant_winners_and_notability. --MASEM (t) 21:29, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Thanks Masem! Can you close out this discussion? —Мандичка 😜 02:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Neutralhomer barracking at a RFC

Following discussion with an Admin relating to the notability policy of a AfD, it was agreed that I should open a RFC to gain consensus. After some thought I decided to open a discussion at WikiProject Radio Stations which seemed the most relevant venue for discussion. As directed at WP:RFC I attempted to formulate a question about the issue which was neutral and invited discussion from editors with different views. User:Neutralhomer has been increasingly abusive in this discussion to me, including insisting that I have to reply to him rather than go to bed (which is nonsense, there is no time limit on a discussion), , am timewasting, and writing about "stirring hornets nests".

The fact is that I am interested in a discussion about the notability issue of community radio stations. That is not, in my opinion, a time wasting activity - because this issue matters to me. I understand that User:Neutralhomer feels strongly that WP:NMEDIA applies only to radio stations in the USA, but as shown by extensive comments by other editors, I am not alone in thinking that a broadcast license by a national regulator should be a sign of notability. I should certainly not be castigated for attempting to follow WP:RFC and I should not have to put up with this kind of bullying. JMWt (talk) 10:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I and others have tried to get JMWt to understand that "community radio stations" do not exist in the US, they are only in Canada, the UK and Australia. So, NMEDIA rules don't cover them. When NMEDIA was created and later updated, it was created to be vague enough to be used all over, but primarily in the US and Canada. Reason being, the people who work on radio station pages are typically from the US and Canada. We didn't have any knowledge of British communications rules when NMEDIA was written.

I suggested to JMWt that he create UK-based rules (under NMEDIAUK) so that there isn't any overlap. But JMWt couldn't accept that. He also couldn't accept that US, Canadian and UK radio stations are completely different.

This has gone on and on for hours and the RfC isn't going anywhere. I requested it be closed and the discussion moved to JMWt's talk page. That seemed to irritate JMWt even more than he already was.

There is a clear case of WP:NOTGETTINGIT going on with JMWt. No matter how I explain the rules, no matter how anyone else explains them, he just doesn't get it. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:39, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I am entitled to open a discussion about the notability of community radio stations worldwide even if (you think) I am wrong about WP:NMEDIA. WP:NOTGETTINGIT does not imply that I have to agree with your conclusions and that a RFC is concluded within 24 hours when you say it is. JMWt (talk) 10:43, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• (ec x 2) It really does look as though people are trying to explain a very simple concept to JMWt, but JMWt is just not comprehending. People, Neutralhomer in particular, are so sick having to explain the same thing over and over and over and over and over that he's become frustrated. This is now being held against him. As someone who has previously had this happen to him, I sympathise more with Neutralhomer than with Mr Fingers-in-ears-LALALALALALA. Reyk _YO! 10:44, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

It is pretty clear that I'm talking about the bullying not the disagreement about WP:NMEDIA. JMWt (talk) 10:49, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

If saying "you swatted the hornet's nest, you don't get to run off to bed" or "you've been here less than a year and it is showing bad" is bullying, then I apologize. That doesn't change the fact that you still don't understand that NMEDIA doesn't cover "Community Radio Stations" because NMEDIA was written, however vaugely, for US and Canadian radio stations. Again, because we didn't have knowledge of UK rules and regs.

I, again, invite you to work with the community and create rules for UK stations as NMEDIAUK, ones that will cover the "Community Radio Stations" found in the UK. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:54, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

"I'm sorry you feel you were bullied" apology not accepted. I've been very clear from the start that I'm talking about how to assess the notability of all small community radio stations on wikipedia. Once again, I deplore your attitude when I am clearly trying to clear up a source of disagreement over notability. JMWt (talk) 10:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

What you still aren't getting is while you are trying to "assess the notability" of community radio stations, you are doing so with rules that don't cover them. You are trying to lump all radio stations into those notability "assessment". I deplore having to repeat myself and I have done so now several times. Several times you just haven't gotten it. I'm hoping you do soon. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:04, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Clearly we disagree. That is not for this discussion, but your attitude. Which has still not changed markedly. JMWt (talk) 11:06, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Dude, my attitude has nothing to do with your understanding of the matter. Numerous people have written large swaths of information and you either barely acknowledge it or completely ignore it and keep right on going. It's kinda hard to have a discussion of any kind when the other person isn't getting it. Reyk, help me out here. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Neutralhomer Communiuty radio actually does exist in the United States , please | see this organization . KoshVorlon 12:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

KoshVorlon: These are almost solely Public Radio formatted stations. Some, like WDVX and WMMT, are Americana and Roots music. But others like WEAA and WTJU are public radio stations airing varying degrees of NPR-type programming.

What I was meaning is the FCC does not have a category for "Community Radio Stations" like OFCOM in the UK does. The closest thing we have is low-power FM (or LPFM). - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll just leave this here: Local Community Radio Act. — Rhododendrites \\ 16:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

That brought about changes in LPFMs, but did not create them. LPFMs in the US have been around since 2001. LPFM was started with the "Radio Broadcasting Preservation Act of 2000". - Neutralhomer • Talk • 16:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I know. The point is that community radio is clearly a thing in the US and acknowledged as such on the legislative level. That the official category of license does not have the word "community" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But this seems like a tangent and gets at the actual substance of the dispute, which does not require ANI. — Rhododendrites \\ 17:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Believe me, if there was a "community radio" category in the US, I think it would be alot easier. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 17:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@JMWt: frankly your attitude sucks, and you should read WP:BOOMERANG. Now climb down off your high horse and listen to people who have been here a long time and are trying to explain things to you with, I must say, commendable patience. Guy (Help!) 17:30, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

"Your attitude sucks" and "climb off your high horse" is how we help people resolve behavioural disputes now, is it? It seems to me people should let the RFC proceed and stop patronising JMWt. Fences&Windows 00:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

As an admin, JzG is exempt from the civility policy, arbitration hearings, and any other normal process that non-admin peons face on a daily basis. Please check the sooper sekrit policy on IRC for details. You have been warned. Viriditas (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Just telling it like it is. JMWt has chosen to come here with a vexatious complaint and in doing so has drawn attention to the fact that JMWt, not those about who he complains, is the primary problem. JMWt refuses to accept explanation or consensus, and comes tot he admin board to complain about those who are patiently explaining the problem. This happens all the time, and the essay WP:BOOMERANG explains typical consequences. Guy (Help!) 13:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: - see, I'm not as wet-behind-the-ears as you seem to think I am. I happen to know a) WP:WHATISCONSENSUS, b) WP:CCC, c) that WP:BIAS is a known thing, d) that there are standards of WP:CIV, e) that nobody "WP:OWN"s essays, never mind prior consensus or policies. But most of all, I am entitled to operate without WP:HA, particularly where I am engaged in WP's own procedure for trying to reach WP:CON on something which is obviously a contentious issue across many AfD. You can say WP:IDONTLIKEIT all you like. As an WP:ADMIN your comments are clearly uncalled for, and you should know better than to attack the person rather than the issue - which I notice you have not bothered to engage with in the forum where it is clearly correct to discuss it. Any further personal attacks from you will be escalated. Furthermore if you can't see the above complaint as a problem outwith of the discussion at hand, then you shouldn't be an WP:ADMIN never mind adding comments to this page. JMWt (talk) 11:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I am missing it. What is wrong with having a RfC? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@Doc James: there is nothing wrong with having an RfC. The problem here is that a single user does not like the views I hold, the fact that I've started an RfC, the fact that I've put the discussion on that particular WikiProject talkpage, the suggestion by me that the notability of radio stations in other countries around the world should be judged on the same basis as those (he says) are only to be covered by WP:NMEDIA, the fact that I've only been editing for 12 months, the fact that I dare suggest that there is no consensus here, or the fact that other people might actually think that WP:NMEDIA can and should apply to radio stations outwith of his jurisdiction. Which all would be absolutely fine if he was able to communicate these points in a way that is not a personal attack. And then, when challenged, makes it out that the bullying I've illustrated in my complaint above is just my impression of what was said. It wasn't. By any objective standard, that was bullying. JMWt (talk) 13:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The issue's not the RfC. The issue is one editor who can't or won't comprehend what people are saying no matter how simple, is acting overly offended at everything, won't accept any kind of conciliatory gesture, and is doing a lot of screechy litigious posturing. Reyk _YO! 13:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

No, sorry, I am entitled to disagree with someone else's understanding of a consensus (expressed in an essay, not a policy) no matter how much they want to insist that their way is the only way to look at it - and I note that others in the discussion have strongly disagreed with the WP:NMEDIA understanding being expressed here as consensus and as WP:NOTGETTINGIT. No, there is a real disagreement and there is a discussion about how to resolve that disagreement in policy. I am entitled to be involved in a RfC which is civil and engages on the question rather than in personal abuse. If you don't get that, maybe you shouldn't be writing on this page either. JMWt (talk) 13:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

NH tries to apologise for expressing frustration and you scream "apology not accepted" in boldface. I stand by my description of you as unforgiving, litigious, and quarrelsome. You're not here to participate in consensus building- you'd at least try to understand other peoples' views if you were- you're just here to yell at everyone and get your way by threatening to "escalate" your feigned outrage to some other venue. This is not a good attitude to have around here. Reyk _YO! 14:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I was a non-apology couched in terms that were made to make it sound like I was imagining abuse and then using this as a forum to repeat endlessly the same point he was making before. I don't want a faux apology, sorry. Now as to your other points, they're obviously garbage given that there are various editors who do not agree with the understanding of WP:NMEDIA that was so forcefully used as an accusation that I was WP:NOTGETTINGIT, even to the extent of resorting to personal abuse - and also given that I've never posted on this board about anything before. I don't care if you think it is vexacious, I don't care if you have a description of me or whatever else you bring up that is totally unrelated. I want someone to recognise this as what it was: abuse. JMWt (talk) 14:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The reason nobody is "recognising this as abuse" is that it isn't abuse. It's just the usual frustration at having to repeatedly explain something to someone who isn't listening. Abuse would be if someone said "You are an asshat" or something along those lines. It's clear at this point that you will not succeed in convincing anyone that you are a victim of misbehaviour, or get anyone to take any sort of action against NeutralHomer. It is time to stop beating this dead horse. Reyk _YO! 14:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Fortunately you are not the one making the decision, then, because you've already shown that you are unable to do so fairly. JMWt (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I had walked away from this thread (and the RfC) due to a migraine from repeating myself ad naseum, but I feel the need to come back and address the above.

JMWt, don't try to guess what I was thinking when I apologized. It was a real apology, not a "non-apology". I don't appreciate having someone try and read my mind and guess what I was thinking.

If I was being abusive, believe me, there would be a crapload of admins jumpin' all over me. As Reyk kindly put it, you are "quarrelsome" and "not here to participate in consensus building". Plus, as JzG said you aren't "listen to people who have been here a long time and are trying to explain things to you". Several users, myself included, have had, as JzG put it, "commendable patience", toward you in having to explain things over and over and over and over.

So, what you may think is "abuse" is actually pure-and-simple frustration. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

OK fine, so make an apology here without reservation and admit that it is possible to have different opinions on the validity of WP:NMEDIA without constantly pushing that I'm WP:NOTGETTINGIT - which is about consensus. I totally understand your position on WP:NMEDIA, I don't need you to keep repeating it. JMWt (talk) 14:42, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I apologized once, you didn't accept it, I'm not doing it again because you ordered me to. As for NMEDIA, and I can't believe I have to repeat this again, your understand and lumping together of two seperate countries, two seperate platforms, doesn't make sense. Ask for consensus on something that has consensus, doesn't make sense. You are trying to find consensus in British radio in rules that are admittedly (and admitted by others at WPRS) of having a North American bias (again because we didn't have anyone to write them from the UK). So, no, you don't understand my position, and unfortunately, yes, I do have to keep repeating it. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Right, that's your understanding and other views are available. That's the whole point of the RFC. If you bothered to look at the discussion, you'd see that all of your points on this have been comprehensively answered. And not by me. As you are unable to comprehend that someone could possibly have a different view to you, and further that you need to keep repeating your view as accepted fact, then I can't do anything but believe your apology was fake. You don't want to apologise, you just want to continue with the same behaviour. JMWt (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You only get one apology, that's how the real world works. You don't shoot down one and then demand another. Doesn't work that way. As for the "comprehensively answered" points, no they haven't. It's just your perfered view. You're projecting your problems back onto me and I don't have time for it. I have articles to create and update, the real reason we are here. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

(ec) Why would you think I give a toss what you think of me? If you come to ANI it's on you to convince people that your complaint is merited. Instead, multiple editors have given you advice that it's ridiculous and that you should drop it. You have elected not to pay any attention, which I am coming to understand is your primary defining characteristic. Fine. You want to yell that you're the innocent victim, and that you'll go on yelling until people see it your way, you can go right ahead. But don't be surprised if, like me, people find themselves sympathising more with NH when you stamp your feet and tremble with rage. Reyk _YO! 14:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Why are you here and what are you actually adding to this discussion? Someone insisting that a RFC should be closed within 24 because someone else doesn't agree with their opinion, and resorting to something they admit is abusive, is something you want to encourage is it? JMWt (talk) 14:49, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I have considered your repeated assertions that I shouldn't post at ANI. It is my determination that they are erroneous. They are therefore disregarded. I will, however, stop posting in this thread because you are wasting my time. Reyk _YO! 14:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Good. JMWt (talk) 14:53, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I never admitted to being abusive. I said "If I was being abusive". Don't put words in my mouth again. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You can't have it both ways: either you were being abusive and are now apologising for it, or you weren't and aren't. JMWt (talk) 15:19, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The above is a classic sign of WP:NOTGETTINGIT. I apologized, you swatted it down, you don't get another one because you demand it. Not the way the real world works. You also don't misquote someone when what I said it right up there. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 20:41, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Let the RfC run. People need to stop personalizing things. You all do not need to agree. An independent admin will close it eventually following it running for at least a week. You do not get to close down RfC just because you disagree with the question. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban or WP:MRMPS (probation enforcement) for Charlotte135

Every now and then, we get men's rights editors or those with similar views POV-pushing gender symmetry content or a gender symmetry angle onto the domestic violence articles. This is why the Domestic violence article is under Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation. There have also been cases where such editors impersonated women to more easily push their viewpoint. Gender symmetry is the controversial viewpoint that women commit as much domestic violence as men, or more domestic violence than men. Charlotte135 (talk · contribs), a relatively new account, showed up to the Domestic violence article making a series of dubious and problematic edits, and has since mainly only been focused on the domestic violence areas of Misplaced Pages. Charlotte135 has denied being a men's right's editor, but Charlotte135 has nonetheless edited the Domestic violence article and the Intimate partner violence article in ways that push the gender symmetry viewpoint, usually with a faulty understanding of the WP:Neutral policy, even when pointed to the WP:Due weight and WP:Valid aspects of that policy. When others try to explain the problems to Charlotte135, Charlotte135 makes it seem like those people are being non-neutral and/or have an agenda, and often doesn't seem to be actually hearing what they are stating. For example, Charlotte135 has mischaracterized me and my intentions so badly that I find it difficult to discuss anything with Charlotte135, and have resorted to leaving notes for a response instead of replying directly; in fact, I will ignore any claims by Charlotte135 in this thread because of that very aspect. Charlotte135's editing and arguments have drained me and a number of others, and the matter only seems to be getting worse. I don't see what there is left for me to do in this case but propose a topic ban or MRMPS restriction with regard to Charlotte135 editing domestic violence articles. At one point, I thought about asking SlimVirgin to help, but she has enough on her plate to deal with. Below is a collapsed point-by-point retelling of what has occurred:

Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:49, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Support topic ban or some restriction

• Support limited time topic ban of some sort (3 months?). I reviewed Charlotte135's contributions to Talk:Domestic violence and in addition to finding tendentious POV pushing and TLDR (from both sides), I came away with a strong impression that Charlotte135 is not a new editor. Though a "Duck block" would be an easy fix, I don't think it would be a "long term" solution, as the user would just show up under another username. Besides, I don't think they've yet done anything that merits an indef block. Charlotte135 claims they are not a SPA, so a short topic ban from domestic violence should not be a big deal. ~Awilley (talk) 05:52, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. This editor is engaging in disruptive, WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior and is clearly not here to improve the encyclopedia. Overwhelming percentage of edits are to a single article, and most of that is tl;dr POV-pushing at talk. Montanabw 09:13, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Topic ban. SPA working in a POV fashion in a contentious topic area is enough for me to support a topic ban and reexamine that after SPA has demonstrated adequate neutrality for six months in unrelated areas.--MONGO 20:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, at least temporarily, due to POV. I think that a six-month ban on Domestic violence is long enough. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support I was tempted to just use the General Sanctions and topic ban them myself as an admin. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support It is hilarious that he has not been handed the dunce cap by an admin yet. I am quite sure that is a SPA pops up at gamergate with the opposing POV they will be slapped with a permban in less than a minute. Even if we ignore that he is a SPA his general editing patterns warrant a ban. So I am literally scratching my head here why he hasn't been given time to cool off yet. My recommendation is 3 months complete ban from topic/s, with 3 months suspended so he can test the waters. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:10, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for this rel. new SPA with POV editing pattern. suspiciously to me, well versed in wiki arguments, policies etc , as if this was editor was not new at all....? checkuser needed? --Wuerzele (talk) 08:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban Per my comments quoted in the OP, the account is obviously a returned user pushing a barrow. Johnuniq (talk) 10:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Oppose topic ban or some restriction

• What? No. Also this weird use of MRA as a slur is dumb. Shall I try to topic ban people editing from a Feminist POV? Arkon (talk) 22:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• See my comments below. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban for now. This is a content dispute, and both parties have engaged in suboptimal POV editing. Minor4th 17:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose- Per Minor4th. I see a content dispute, kicked off by Charlotte adding a sourced statement to an article, but there has not been a convincing case made that anyone is disrupting anything. Reyk _YO! 12:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
• Definitely Oppose- This is a content dispute involving one old and one new editor. It didn't need to be brought here.Cebr1979 (talk) 22:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Note: Cebr1979 is one of my WP:Hounding stalkers; I was anticipating him showing up in this thread. He is the main reason I told Gandydancer I didn't want to discuss this topic at my talk page. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not a stalker. Flyer22 Reborn is a liar who makes false claims about me in order to discredit me without ever giving any proof to her claims. I'd love to see some.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:45, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know you Cebr1979. But thanks for calling it as you see it. Could an administrator please talk to Flyer22reborn here? They should not be jumping in here and attacking or trying to discredit each and every good faith editor that dares to oppose a topic ban for a purely content dispute? Can I add my comments about editors above that support it? I wouldn't. And I don't think other editors would either. And Flyer22reborn knows better. It is classic bullying behavior by Flyer22reborn. Just Stop It Flyer22reborn!Charlotte135 (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

• Comment - I'm currently reviewing everything stated here, as well as Charlotte135's contribution history. Looking at Charlotte135's contribs page, I will state that this is definitely a single purpose account focused primarily on domestic abuse and gender topics. Most, if not nearly all of this user's edits are made in articles that fall under this subject matter. ~Oshwah~ 06:23, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment, it seems clear that "single purpose" is an appropriate label for the account, not that that is automatically a bad thing. A lot of the edits seem designed to push a specific agenda that seems to largely align to MRA, but I want to hear a response from Charlotte135 before making a firm decision either way. Lankiveil 06:40, 10 December 2015 (UTC).
• CommentI have edited well over 35 different topics ranging from menstruation through to the ebola virus. Admittedly most of these relate to women and women's health although that is a very, very wide net and is far from a single purpose account. However I have noticed most editors seem to edit within a specific scope, much more specific in many cases than I have. Mine has been pretty broad. Some editors only edit articles about horses for instance. Every single edit I have made to every single article page has added some value to the article, however minor. How the heck are my 35 plus articles edits in any way indicative of a specific agenda? My agenda is to help build a better Misplaced Pages. Could Lankiveil please provide some diffs for the other 30 or 40 articles I have edited and provide any evidence at all as to how any of these edits could be seen as biased in any way? Furthermore I am a woman and a scientist Flyer22reborn, I can assure you of that last time I checked. I am not aligned in any way, whatsoever, to any men's rights groups, ever, nor have I any interest whatsoever, in any such nonsense. And what the heck is MRA!! I completely reject any such assertion and is an obvious attempt to discredit me by associating me with such groups. I have a lot more to say on this too. But first things first and I'll wait for Lankiveil response. Thank you.Charlotte135 (talk) 08:01, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Charlotte135, I really think that you should focus on the information that Flyer22 Reborn has presented right now and respond to it. This is the initial information that we are looking at, and I think that your response is drifting away from the issues that are actually presented here. ~Oshwah~ 09:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

My comments above are completely on topic. My editing is clearly spanned over 35 different articles so I am confused as to how that possibly constitutes being a SPA?? I have never ever edited mens rights type articles, or violence against men articles, or violence against women articles, or any similar articles. Check my contributtions. I am a woman Flyer22reborn and not pretending to be a woman. How offensive. And I am a scientist Flyer22reborn, I can assure you of that last time I checked. I am not aligned in any way, whatsoever, to any men's rights groups, ever, nor have I any interest whatsoever, in any such nonsense. And what the heck is MRA!! I completely reject any such assertion and is an obvious attempt to discredit me by associating me with such groups. Utter nonsense. This report is baseless. However all articles, without exception, do need to report what the body of scientific knowledge states, and where possible and ideally in medically related content, we need to rely on high quality metaanalyses published in international scientific journals and that comply with MEDRS. And for the 100000th friggin time now Flyer22reborn, and any others worried about this, I once again stress this clear point. I completely agree with this statement in the DV article "Globally, however, a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such violence." This appears to be the only threat that Flyer22reborn is concerned with and the reason they posted this here. What more can I say. But yes, please anyone be my guest in looking at the 35 or more articles I have edited and the positive contribution that has made to Misplaced Pages based on policy. How is that not relevant? What is this?Charlotte135 (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

On the point of not understanding due weight, no evidence has been presented to support that statement? I believe I have a pretty good grasp of that policy by now, thank you very much. And before Flyer22reborn posted this here, I had again offered an an opportunity to mediate and to reach a resolution to their concerns. In that way, someone entirely neutral and does not hold such passionate and strong POV on this topic of domestic violence could guide the editing based solely and wholly on policy and what reliable sources say, not emotion. They could then decide if edits were applying due weight. Here is that offer for peaceful resolution that was aggressively rejected, once again, by Flyer22reborn. So that was a good option instead of posting here and accusing me of all sorts of baseless crud, frankly.Charlotte135 (talk) 13:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Looking over your edit summary, on most of those articles you have edited, you have made 1 or 2 edits while you have edited Domestic violence 75 times so that is where your focus has been.

What Oshwah is asking you to do is rather than offering reassurances that you are editing positively, could you address some of the examples provided by Flyer22Reborn? Most decisions on ANI are determined by the weight of the evidence presented and, right now, Flyer22Reborn has presented a very detailed and compelling group of edits with explanations...you need to provide a better defense than saying that saying the report is baseless. While you're not on trial here, you should try to rebut Flyer22Reborn's convincing argument with more than simply saying you reject her assertions. Liz 16:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Liz is correct; we need to focus on the information submitted here, and I want to listen to your response regarding it. The goal of an ANI discussion is to review the information presented and make a logical and objective decision based off of that information. But we need to keep the discussion towards what's relevant in order to be able to do so. ~Oshwah~ 16:10, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

That's not correct, Oshwah (nor is it what Liz said). We need to focus on whatever information is brought up by anyone. @Charlotte135: has a right to defend herself and can't be told that only "information submitted here" can be brought up. She can bring up whatever she wants and it all has to be looked at the same way/just as equally as anything brought up about her by anyone else.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm just struggling to see what policy I have breached. On your point of how many times I edited domestic violence, I can only look at others for examples. One example is Flyer22reborn, who has edited the domestic violence article and mensrights articles over 500 times, probably more. However all of their other article editing over the past few months at least, has been one or two edits using Misplaced Pages:STiki? My edits to the DV and other articles are good and have added value. I have complied with policies, have restrained myself from edit warring, put up with Flyer22reborn's constant abuse. I contribute neutrally to all articles, as I do in my own scientific career, and have no agenda, and nothing Flyer22reborn presented above, and none of my editing, proves otherwise. So again, and with my other comments above, I ask, what have I done wrong or different to other constructive editors?Charlotte135 (talk) 21:10, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I have never edited any of the men's rights articles Flyer22reborn and others have been edit warring over. And my edits on the domestic violence article are constructive. All articles Flyer22reborn edits to any significant degree are gender equality type articles. Not me. So why am I being accused of doing so?Charlotte135 (talk) 21:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I was involved in a tiny part of this whole mess (see below).

Firstly, one needs to concentrate on disruption. I see a lot of diffs in Flyer22's report, but I fail to see what exactly is disruptive about them. There has been a lack of WP:DR pursued by both people. I notice that when Flyer22 opened an RfC, that particular dispute was settled, and Charlotte135 did not challenge it. Similarly, when Kaldari stepped into a dispute and supported Flyer22's position, Charlotte135 did not challenge it. Secondly, I was very briefly involved in an WP:RSN discussion of a source. I will not attempt to summarize it here, but what Charlotte135 is saying, over and over again on the talkpage is that there are some sources which talk about the balance of some forms of domestic violence. Those sources should be presented in the article: not as the dominant viewpoint, but a significant viewpoint. That is certainly a defensible position (whether it is right or wrong cannot be decided here). Thirdly, both Flyer22 and Charlotte135 should stop with WP:TLDR. Fourthly, both editors have cast aspersions on one another, but Flyer22 has done by far the bulk of them, repeatedly ascribing political motives to Charlotte135's edits. Even if they were true, that is irrelevant. To sum up, I do not see enough disruption here. I would oppose any topic ban for Charlotte135, but would suggest they use WP:DR much more than as usual. Open an RfC, make WP:drafts and ask people to comment, use WP:3O, use WP:DRN etc. I see that Charlotte135 has offered mediation, perhaps that could be pursued. I do however see that Charlotte135 has made a LOT of edits to the talkpage; they seem to have become somewhat obsessed with the subject. One option could be to take a break from the article for a few days. Misplaced Pages is very big. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:38, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Account less than two months old and minor wikignoming edits to a few other articles aside, most of this editor's work has been tl;dr discussions at a single article, disruptive in nature and tone. These comments are disruptive to improvement of the article. Flyer22reborn is being baited and targeted by yet another POV-pushing editor who is trying to insert a "men's rights" POV into articles on domestic violence and it in't appropriate to do so. Montanabw 09:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Kingsindian, the statement "but Flyer22 has done by far the bulk of them, repeatedly ascribing political motives to Charlotte135's edits." is incorrect, as are other things you state on these topics. You seem to enable and/or defend Charlotte135 and editors who push the viewpoint Charlotte135 is clearly pushing, so I was expecting you to show up here. If I'm wrong about your motives, I apologize. But to me, if you really cared nothing about the domestic violence topics, as you seemed to indicate at WP:RSN and the WP:MEDRS talk page, you would not still be concerning yourself with these matters. I will not be responding to you further in this section. I also expected Arkon to show up here, given his history. Despite his notion of topic banning feminist editors, feminism and men's rights are nowhere close to being on the same acceptance level, for reasons made explicitly clear in the Men's rights movement article and by various WP:Reliable sources commenting on the men's rights movement. Article probation exists with regard men's rights editors and their POV-pushing for reasons that have been well-documented at this site. So, yes, it very much matters whether or not an editor is a men's rights editor when they are editing gender topics here at Misplaced Pages. As noted at the Men's rights movement article, marital rape is one of the men's rights concerns. And marital rape is another topic Charlotte13 is interested in. Whether or not Charlotte13 is a men's rights editor, Charlotte13's editing has a men's rights lean to it, and others have stated as much; I clearly am not the only one who has stated so.

And for the record, Charlotte135's statements that "One example is Flyer22reborn, who has edited the domestic violence article and mensrights articles over 500 times, probably more." and "All articles Flyer22reborn edits to any significant degree are gender equality type articles." are false (as anyone significantly familiar with my editing history knows; sexology and medical topics are more so my area of editing), and is the type of false commentary I was speaking of when it comes to Charlotte135 commenting on me. Charlotte135 comments falsely on various things, not just me, and has a severe case of WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT. Almost any time I make an edit Charlotte135 disagrees with, Charlotte135 is quick to make some sort of claim about me being desperate to keep some POV in the article and acts like I am violating some editing principle, as is also clear by the discussion at Talk:Intimate partner violence. After I noted there the literature with regard to the typologies on intimate partner violence (which is not the same thing as general types of intimate partner violence), Charlotte135 jumped right to stating, "You are also obviously a very big personal fan of Michael Johnson who has very controversial POV he has." And all of that is exactly why I stated I would be ignoring claims made by Charlotte135 in this section. I cannot work with Charlotte135, and I'd be surprised if any others can. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I have only had difficulty here on Misplaced Pages with you Flyer22reborn. I have respected other editors, as they have not personally attacked me and my motives right from the beginning. No-one appreciates that. Not withstanding that, I have made two different attempts to have dispute resolution as recommended by a couple of editors and administrators. I too thought it would help resolve the issue you had and stop the circular discussion we were having and your personal attacks. You bluntly refused, and were very rude about it in fact. I am a woman by the way and don't appreciate it. I even posted the Archer metaanalyses at the reliable sources noticeboard as another editor suggested.

Again, I took this editors suggestion and posted it here at the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 198 and this was how I opened that posting. Rhoark actually stated: "This is the most slam-dunk obviously reliable source I've seen anyone bother to bring to the noticeboard. Psychological Bulletin is quite venerable, and the article shows 156 citations on PubMed. A random spot check of the text of those articles shows it is being used at face value, not criticized. Rhoark (talk) 02:39, 24 October 2015 (UTC)" But again, you came storming in, like you have done here, and shot Rhoark's objective assessment down in flames. It just seems like you believe you are always right, and know everything about everything. No matter what. Point is, I certainly can work with other editors on the article and, even with you, if you would just stop attacking me, but I do again suggest we seek mediation now to iron out our differences?Charlotte135 (talk) 10:42, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: Unfortunately, you seem unable to discuss this topic without scattering WP:ASPERSIONS like confetti, based on no evidence at all. Apparently I "enabled" men's rights activists for giving my good faith input at WP:RSN and WP:MEDRS. I guess no good deed goes unpunished. You might want to think about the possibility that you have become jaded after encountering too many sockpuppets and POV pushers in this area. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:43, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

You're losing it again. Perhaps it's time for a Flyer Reborn Reborn? Arkon (talk) 20:32, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Ignoring any other claims made about me in this Discussion, especially those by editors who have a history of pushing a certain POV at gender topics, a POV at odds with the general literature on those topics and therefore at odds with the WP:Due weight policy, I will repeat what I stated moments ago at Talk:Intimate partner violence: "Thank you . That is what I was stating; it had absolutely nothing to do with being 'a very big personal fan of Michael Johnson.' There is nothing wrong with including the term intimate terrorism in the lead. There is nothing wrong with including 'this is generally perpetrated by men against women' with regard to the most controlling forms of intimate partner violence in the lead. I can't work with an editor who repeatedly acts like I am pushing some horrid POV by simply adhering to the WP:Due weight policy or some other Misplaced Pages policy or guideline. It irritates me to no end when an editor thinks that I or someone else is POV-pushing by simply following the WP:Neutral policy accurately. We have far too many editors at this site who do not understand that policy, which has been noted more than once at that policy's talk page; too many get tripped up on the word neutral when Misplaced Pages's definition of neutral is not at all the same as the definition of neutral in common discourse. I cannot work with an editor whose understanding of the literature is lacking and who does not seem to listen when told what the literature states, but instead goes on and on about some POV I or someone else is supposedly pushing, sometimes including poor sources to counter what I or that other person is stating. Working with an editor who is not as informed is fine, but not when that editor does not listen and repeatedly harps on an imaginary bias. If the literature is biased, we still go by the literature, as noted at WP:BIASED SOURCES." The issue with Charlotte135 is not simply a content dispute, and no one should have to put with the type of editing Charlotte135 engages in. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Given Flyer's continuous focus on due weight, and noting the excellent points that Kingsindian made above, I thought I should paste exactly what I actually said on the topic of NPOV, and leave it at that. here it is Please note that I said: they should not be given the same weight as opposing viewpoints which represent what the majority of sources say. Here is the full comment I made in black and white.

"We are left with this review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18624096?dopt=Abstract, this review http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10989615 and this review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18936281?dopt=Abstract. All secondary. All from reputable journals. They clearly represent a significant viewpoint that needs to be represented in this article. IMO they should not be given the same weight as opposing viewpoints which represent what the majority of sources say. However they are far from fringe! In the second paragraph can we say something like most sources say that a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such abuse. However some other sources (insert the three accepted reviews above) say....." and leave it at that as other editors have suggested? Sound reasonable?Charlotte135 (talk) 14:39, 9 November 2015 (UTC)"

How the heck is that POV pushing Flyer22reborn?Charlotte135 (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Charlotte135: Let me give you a small tip. The purpose of this board is for the community to investigate the behaviour of the parties. Therefore, as Liz mentioned above, you should address the community, not Flyer22. Focus on rebutting the points Flyer22 made in the opening statement. I see your last statement is addressing one of the points Flyer22 made, which is good. But please don't bicker with Flyer22 here, nobody is interested in that. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:17, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Flyer22reborn's attacks on every editor that disagrees with them, or points something out, makes it hard not to respond. But, fair enough, point taken from my end, and thank you for pointing that out in a decent manner.Charlotte135 (talk) 03:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - The issue at hand here isn't Flyer22reborn's edits, but Charlotte135's. The charge is that Charlotte135 is a contentious editor, and I think that Flyer22reborn and others have made a good case for it. Plus, I haven't seen any substantial defense by Charlotte135, just denials and attacks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:55, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Christine: The "issue at hand here" is whatever anyone wants to bring up. Charlotte135 has a right to defend herself and can't be told that only her edits can be discussed.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Last comment here, as I really don't believe I have been disruptive and no one has presented any evidence, only accusations from Flyer22reborn. If you look at my actual edits on the domestic violence article they are good and I stand by them. Most have nothing to do with gender and I really do wonder why there is so much focus on gender to the detriment of all other aspects involved in domestic violence internationally. The edits I made recently to the intimate partner violence. Here they all are. added WHO definition And I simply replaced the sentence Flyer22reborn is talking about with the WHO definition and the standard types of intimate partner violence. I left the gender based stuff, that women experience more IPV, that Flyer22reborn's is concerned with, in the body of the article, untouched. Finally if someone like Kaldari wanted to revert any of these edits and briefly discuss why, I would respect that and certainly wouldn't edit war over it. I'm not sure what more I can sayCharlotte135 (talk) 13:41, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

What is the evidence? Anyone? Any evidence at all? How am I disruptive, based on my editing? Diffs? Any evidence at all? Isn't this just a content dispute? How have i evidenced being labelled a SPA? Evidence? Any diffs? Evidence please? Surely presenting some evidence would be straight forward?Charlotte135 (talk) 21:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

The rant above pretty much is what the editors at the articles in question have been dealing with all along. This editor is pretty much here to be disruptive as far as I can see. Montanabw 05:39, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Someone left a message on my talk page, though I have no idea why. May I suggest to Charlotte135 that they give it a rest? Let other people comment. You said "last comment" earlier; I suggest you follow your own advice. And you are still bickering with Flyer22. Keep calm and watch the thread unfold from a distance. Reply only if you are asked directly, and have something new to add. By the way, I don't see anything disruptive in the above "rant", just some boring rehashing of earlier remarks. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

User Sir Joseph

I ask the admin to review the recent edit warring and misbehavior of Sir Joseph. He has displayed an extreme bias and major POV in recent edits. He has also engaged in edit warring on Hanukkah page and Menachem M. Schneerson, constantly removing properly sourced information with claims of original research. Further Sir Joseph has removed any record of my warning to him from his talk page. From taking a look at Sir Joseph's talk page, I noticed this is not the first time. TM (talk) 16:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I ask you to close this ASAP. As you can see from the MMM page, I commented in the RFC that the claim that the Rebbe had a hand in founding the US Department of Education needs evidence. No such evidence was provided. On the Hanuka page, this user is pushing a Chabad POV. If you query ARBCOM, this was done in the past, CHABAD is known for being POV warriors, whether intentionally or not, but saying a holiday celebrated for thousands of years is due to one Rabbi is certainly POV and should certainly not be in the lead, and should certainly not be pushed with a POV book.Finally, I can revert my talk page, after all, it's my talk page. I would ask the admins to ask this user to read up on Wikipolicy and to read up on what constitutes bias and POV. This is a waste of everyone's time. Sir Joseph 16:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Also, if you guys don't mind, would you please warn him for vandalizing my talk page? Sir Joseph 16:50, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sir Joseph did not just comment as he says here, but rather, deleted properly sourced information both on Menachem M. Schneerson and Hanukkah. There were two sources on Menachem M. Schneerson supporting the information that Sir Joseph deleted. I suggested he take a look at them before deleting. I suggested he take a look at them before deleting. I have not yet put that information back since, unlike Sir Joseph, I do not want to engage in edit warring. Instead, I encourage the admin to review the talk page discussion there carefully. On Hanukkah as well, Sir Joseph has engaged in edit warring and deleted properly sourced information. In addition, the admin may want to have a look at User talk:Prepstarr25 who has inserted himself into Sir Joseph's edit warring and who it now seems Sir Joseph - after his subsequent comment on his talk page - is teaming up with. Fact are facts, even when we don't like them. TM (talk) 16:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

As I told you yesterday, tell me which page in the book does it say that the Rebbe had a hand in the founding of the US DOE. You can't come in with the preposterous claim and then when I ask for evidence just say it's in the book. It's not. You are a POV pusher. I suggest you view the Chabad Arbcom case. Sir Joseph 16:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

As I told you, book title, authors and pages numbers are all sourced. Have a look. Don't just delete. Also, your recent Hanukkah edit warring has proved once again that you will delete any information, even when properly sourced, that you don't like. TM (talk) 16:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Not once did you mention a page number in the MMM article. I am still waiting. Sir Joseph 16:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Usually, facts brought here are backed up by specific diffs. Care to show them? From what I can see, for example, there is either no clear-cut edit warring on Hanukkah, or if two reverts count, then you reverted three times. LjL (talk) 16:54, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

He also warned me for reverting my own talk page, accused me of being a sockpuppet or being involved with a sockpuppet, this is the general behavior of someone not realizing that you can't push your way to your POV. If the Rebbe helped found the US DOE, there should be evidence of that. Show it and I'll gladly accept it.Sir Joseph 17:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Lets not confuse the facts. There was properly sourced information on Menachem M. Schneerson. Sir Joseph removed it and stated its false backing up his claims with original research and totally disregarding two published sources. He continuously claims, falsely, that no page numbers are provided. As I have said before, take a look at the sources on the page and see for yourself. Now with regard to Hanukkah. There was information in the lede supported by several published sources, including books, news-articles and academic papers. Sir Joseph has just deleted it for no reason. If Sir Joseph has an issue, it should be raised on the talk pages, and credible counter sources should be provided. According to Misplaced Pages guidelines, one cannot just delete credibly sourced information, just because one does not like it. Initially after Sir Joseph deleted it, I added additional sources to strengthen the claim. But Sir Joseph deleted these as well. In this case Sir Joseph has exposed himself as not liking chabad and therefore deleting relevant information even though it has been properly sources in full accordance with Misplaced Pages's guidelines. I can not replace the information at this point since I do not want to engage in edit wars, but I do ask the Admin to please look carefully at the history, the talk pages and all the sources provided (both re the role of MMS in DOE and the publicity of Hanukkah) and make the fair and balanced derision. TM (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

So? Which page number? You keep saying it's in the book, so which page number says the Rebbe had a hand in the founding of the US Department of Education? A claim like that would not be hard to find. If it were my book, it would be on the jacket, the TOC, the header, it would be on the ad copy. Please let me know what page number. Don't just say that you saw it and put it, you need to bring proof for this ludicrous claim.Sir Joseph 18:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

As for the Chanukka article, you added sources after I reverted. In addition, even those new sources, are not sources that belong in a lead of an article. If you want to include something like that, it belongs in the body not in the lead, otherwise it is extreme POV pushing. Sir Joseph 19:04, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, Sir Joseph, to me the claim you removed ("honoring his role in establishing the Department of Education as an independent cabinet-level department") seems to be backed by the given source, i.e.:

Sue Fishkoff (22 April 2009). The Rebbe's Army: Inside the World of Chabad-Lubavitch. Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. p. 192. ISBN 978-0-307-56614-0. by the late 1970s he was pushinig the Rebbe's first Washington campaign-the creation of a department of education, separate from the existing Department of Health, Education and Welfare.

Firstly, that source just says he campaigned for that, not that he had a hand in the founding of the DOE, as is claimed. Secondly, the book is not a RS. It is biased to the Chabad POV. He is claiming, not that the Rebbe was campaigning or wanting a DOE but that he had a hand in the founding of the DOE, that would result in lots more than a mention in a Chabad biography. Sir Joseph 19:19, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Continue reading the book and you will see that it speaks of Congress honor to him for his role in it's establishment. But seriously, now that you have been proven that it is published your claiming that the book is bias?? TM (talk) 19:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Bias does not mean bad, but a book like that can't be used to push a pro-Chabad POV since it's a pro-Chabad bias book. Like I said a million times, if you are asserting that the rebbe had a hand in the founding of the DOE, that would be in a dozen newspapers and Congressional Records. You said the book says the book says Congress honors him, so that would be in the Congressional Record. The Congressional Record would be a WP:RS. And again, you keep mentioning, keep reading, but you don't mention pages, you need to specify where your proof is. Sir Joseph 19:29, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You can not engage in original research to disprove what is written in two separate books. Fishkoff page 191-2. Telushkin page 161. Yo are now also making a sweeping claim Fishkoff is a pro-Chabad bias book. What next? TM (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, The Rebbe's Army is a pro-Chabad book, and I did a keyword search and found no mention of the rebbe helping to found the US DOE. Sir Joseph 19:42, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to sum up: first you claim it didn't happen, then you claim it's not documented, then you claim its not in the book, then you claim the page does not exists, then you claim that the book is not a valid source. Between this and your edits on the Hanukkah page, you have exposed yourself as having an agenda. I ask the admin to review this carefully. TM (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Look, this board doesn't really care about the content dispute, and you have WP:RSN to discuss the reliability of the sources. However, you claimed that the page number relevant to the claim was not given, but I think I showed it was given. So let's stay focused. I haven't even seen a single diff in this discussion being given as evidence for anything yet (except below, where a different dispute was apparently merged together with this one). LjL (talk) 20:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

So can we 1) close this and 2) comment on the below users conduct? Sir Joseph 22:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I did not yet look at Sir Joseph's (SJ's) edits on Hanukkah and Menachem M. Schneerson or any other articles (except Israel), thus I cannot comment on his behavior there.

SJ appears to have recently edit warred on Israel. SJ, together with user: WarKosign, appears to have edit-warred against four different editors. Nishidani added content to improve the adherence to WP:V and WP:RS. SJ almost instantly reverted Nishidani, restoring content that violates V & RS. Zero000 reverted SJ's edit. WarKosign reverted back to the version violating V & RS. Johnmcintyre1959 reverted WarKosign, and WarKosign reverted back again. I reverted WarKosign's edit, and SJ reverted back again to the version violating V & RS.

I explained all of the above to SJ on his user talk page. Furthermore, I also explained to SJ on his user talk page that 'stability' of content is a relatively weak requirement and is not a valid reason to retain content that violates the infinitely stronger requirement to adhere to core WP content policies. I also wrote that 'stability' is not a valid reason to edit war (nothing is) - and in fact SJ's (and WarKosign's) repeated reverts are exactly what caused the content of Israel to be unstable.

SJ's best response would have been to take full responsibility for his behavior, acknowledge he has edit-warred, reassure the community he will not edit war again, and reassure fellow editors he understands 'stability' is not a valid reason to violate core policies. Instead, SJ appears to have wikilawyered, which is one of the worst ways he could have possibly responded, because it implies that SJ seems to be highly likely to repeat his disruptive behavior. IjonTichy (talk) 19:01, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

If, as you say you have no idea what you're doing here, why are you commenting? Can you stop stalking me? Reverting something is not edit warring. Sir Joseph 19:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

SJ's last comment is further evidence he refuses to take the ample opportunities provided to him here, and on his talk page, to reassure the community he intends to play by WP's rules. Instead he used these opportunities to continue to display his BATTLEGROUND approach. -- IjonTichy (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Says the person who posted a comment on WP:AN that has nothing to do with the WP:AN. Sir Joseph 19:32, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@IjonTichyIjonTichy: One revert on 30 November, and one on 2 December... you call that edit warring? LjL (talk) 19:17, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, edit warring can take place even without violating the 1RR restriction. On WP it is very important to follow the letter of the PAG, but it is even more important to abide by their spirit. IjonTichy (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I can comment only on one case, Israel. There Sir Joseph followed WP:BRD and reverted an edit that he disagreed with, restoring a long-standing stable version. Several editors including IjonTichyIjonTichy attempted forcing the new version. Eventually edit warring stopped and we began discussing on the talk page. IjonTichyIjonTichy did not contribute to the discussion, while Sir Joseph did. It seems that a new consensus has been reached, and it agrees with edit in question, but it was still wrong for IjonTichyIjonTichy to push it against existing consensus instead of discussing. In this it's clear that IjonTichyIjonTichy's behavior was more disruptive than Sir Joseph's. “WarKosign” 19:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sure it can, but two reverts in the span of 3 days, with talk page discussion, is quite obviously not edit warring. LjL (talk) 20:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

It's obviously edit warring, because it is not only two reverts, it's SJ and WarKosign together reverting four editors on the same content (content that obviously violated V and RS). And by the way it's not 3 days, it's only two days (about 3 hours longer than 2 days). IjonTichy (talk) 21:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Then under the same token, the other four editors are edit warring too (especially those who did not take part in any talk page discussion). Perhaps the page should be full-protected. LjL (talk) 22:13, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• This looks a whole lot more like a content dispute than anything else. Take it to the appropriate noticeboard. Ani is not for content disputes. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Not only a content dispute. Both Sir Joseph and WarKosign clearly edit warred with Nishidani,   Johnmcintyre1959,   Zero0000 and myself, to force a version of Israel that violated V and RS. Moreover, they refuse to take responsibility for their disruptive behavior, and they continue to refuse to acknowledge that 'stability,' which they used as their edit summaries, is a weak requirement that does not justify violating the massively more important core requirements of V and RS. (In fact WarKosign just used the lame 'stability' excuse again above.) Additionally, they seem to conveniently believe that their participating in a talk page discussion gives them permission to edit war with editors who also participate in the discussion as well as to edit war with editors who have not participated in the article talk page discussion. So both Sir Joseph and WarKosign also appear to be clueless.

Instead of reassuring the community they will abide by the PAG in the future, Sir Joseph and WarKosign are engaging in ad-hominem attacks (both of them have now accused me of disruptive behavior after I made only a single edit to the article to revert their repeated violation of V & RS), they display battleground behavior and are Wikilawyering. Instead of sending a signal to the community that they will stop disrupting the project, it appears they are sending a strong signal that it is highly likely they will continue to behave disruptively. IjonTichy (talk) 21:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The evidence or lack there of shows a content dispute. Two diffs that show Sir Joseph reverting don't really show anything and they don't hold up your narrative.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not understand your vendetta or stalking against me, it is seriously troubling. Please stop. Sir Joseph 22:18, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

SJ and WarKosign appear to be playing the role of innocent victims who have done nothing wrong, despite the ample evidence presented above (including SJ's and WK's own endless wikilawyering). They carelessly, thoughtlessly throw around words like 'consensus,' and empty accusations like 'stalking' and 'vendetta' without appearing to really understand what these words mean on WP and when and where these are, or are not, appropriate to use on WP. (For example WarKosign appears to be saying above that if his views are clearly in the minority then obviously the consensus is in his favor and this gives him the right to edit war.) SJ and WK are either grossly underestimating the intelligence of the community, and/or SJ and WK truly believe they are entirely blameless.

It increasingly seems like a bad idea for the community to allow SJ and WK to continue to edit in a highly complex, difficult, highly contentious area such as the Palestine-Israel-Arab (PIA) area, as the likelihood of their continuing to disrupt the project is very high. For example, editors may like to take a look at SJ's massive wasting of the community's time in his stubborn pursuit of his petty, ridiculous vendetta against Nableezy. -- IjonTichy (talk) 00:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you paranoid? I haven't edited the Israel article in over a week, which is when you put a notice on my talk page, so you're the one stalking me. I don't think I've seen WarKosign since that one time, that I used the TALK PAGE. You are seriously bordering on the criminally stalking and I am asking you to stop. And I am asking an admin to please look into this and take action against this user, this stalking is unacceptable. Sir Joseph 00:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Menachem Mendel Schneerson and Hanukkah protected 3 days. Issues related to Palestine-Israel arbitration should use arbitration enforcement instead. --slakr 02:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:AE deals with content about ARBCOM, not general content and stalking issues, as far as I'm concerned. Sir Joseph 02:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

My bad; reverted the {{resolved}}, in case more discussion is needed for the issue of harassment. --slakr 02:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Sir Joseph continues to play the role of a victim. He continues to wikilawyer, including but not limited to his ridiculous, nonsensical, vacuous accusation of 'stalking.' He has called for the community to waste their time to look into his various fatuous, empty accusations against TzviMichelsohn, Nableezy, and myself, to distract the community from Sir Joseph's disruptive editing, wikilawyering, and ad-hominem attacks. Again and again, SJ seems to grossly underestimate the intelligence of the community. Or perhaps SJ truly believes he is being victimized by anyone who points out his crimes and misdemeanors on WP, a behavior which is probably even more worrisome than if SJ was only playing the victim. Either way, SJ has not yet given a single assurance to the community he intends to stop disrupting the project, so it is extremely likely that this noticeboard, as well as other noticeboards, will have to deal again with his disruptive behavior in the not-too-distant future. IjonTichy (talk) 23:36, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

You've provided two diffs that show two reversions on their part. Before we try get assurances from someone that a problem is resolved it's best that we can verify a problem actually exists. Crimes and misdemeanors? That sounds like a little bit of wikilawyering to me. Alot of what I just read did. You've got a narrative and maybe we can get James Earl Jones to voice it in Misplaced Pages the movie. If this is however not creative fiction, (in the voice of Clara Peller) Where's the diffs?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:09, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Dodgyness

Is something underhanded going on here? What begins life as a good, legitimate redirect is hijacked and moved elsewhere promotional SPA, Zestmind (talk · contribs). Current subject is Barbara Khozam, previously named Barbara Nyland. There is no sign of any connection to the name Barbara Rhodes. It's that unconnected name that was hijacked. Is this a bad faithed attempt to avoid new page patrol as is being seen lately? duffbeerforme (talk) 11:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Duffbeerforme: If it is then it will fail: when a redirect is converted into an article, it is added to the New Pages feed as an unpatrolled page, in the same way as a new page. Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 20:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Disruption at Ivo Andrić

At the article Ivo Andrić and Talk:Ivo Andrić, 72.66.12.17 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) along with 65.220.39.97 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 178.221.37.150 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (apparently the same user) performs a sustained campaign of disruption, concerning the writer's ethnicity (what else?). First they opened a malformed RFC (at Talk:Ivo Andrić#Name, Family asking for editors to comment that Andrić was not born in a Croat family, appealing to sources that they never cite. They continue to troll the article's talk page, my talk page, and 23 editor's talk page.

72.66.12.17 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been warned about WP:ARBMAC by Joy back in November. On Serbian Misplaced Pages, sr:Korisnik:72.66.12.17 aka sr:Korisnik:Djura aka sr:Korisnik:Milos zankov was indefblocked for the same kind of POV-pushing and disruption . I don't have doubts it is the same person. They were brought into connection with Asdisis, banned long-term vandal at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Asdisis/Archive, with a similar modus operandi, but the link was not proven without doubt (and it is hardly relevant, because they are disruptive in themselves). No such user (talk) 13:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, look, there's only warring of some sort in the user contributions. And Curzio Malaparte, and Miroslav Filipović and Tesla and List of Croats... Is this yet another in an endless line of sockpuppets of User:Velebit?

Any uninvolved admin has my full blessing to engage in blocking, because the assumption of good faith is well spent. If I were to do the block, I would undoubtedly run the risk of WP:INVOLVED allegations. --Joy (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

But, history comes to the rescue. User:Milos zankov is an already indefinitely blocked sock puppet of User:Michelle Ridomi.

If nobody offers new exculpatory evidence RSN, I will extend the block to this IP based on an assumption that the admins at the Serbian Misplaced Pages were correct in correlating all these accounts already. --Joy (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Joy: Another sock of sr:Korisnik:Djura is sr:Корисник:Purger~srwiki. On English wiki, Purger (talk · contribs) is tagged as sock of Velebit (talk · contribs). I'm only vaguely familiar with Velebit's MO. Now, it's all circumstantial, but I'm positive that 72.66.12.17 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is Djura, judging on same "it's only in printed references" stunt at sr:Разговор:Анте Старчевић/Архива 2#Све из почетка. The two IPs in my report geolocate to Washington DC metro area -- does that ring any bell? I'm now pretty convinced it's Velebit, judging on the common Purger link. No such user (talk) 21:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Vanjagenije: have you encountered this one before? --Joy (talk) 17:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Please, stop this farce! I see the pattern of this administrator -Joy (talk) who created the scapegoat called Velebit in order to propagate Croatian POV in Misplaced Pages. Pay attention to a few notes from

• • https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Velebit/Archive#Comments_by_other_users_14

• • There is no evidence of sock puppetry, try dispute resolution. A request for comment may be the most suitable option as the main problem identified is civility and not avoidance of scrutiny. Peter E. James (talk) 02:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

• • I'm not sure what action you would like us to take here. The account appears to have been abandoned. The first two IPs have not been used in some time. The other IPs don't appear to overlap in editing dates. So, while this may in fact be the same person, they simply appear to be editing while logged out, which is permitted. TNXMan 15:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

• • I am at a complete loss for this one: The IPs are obviously not connected (and one hasn't edited since April), the Aries no Mur account hasn't edited since 2013 (and it's completely unclear why anyone would think it is connected to the IPs), and this particular SPI file seems to be a dumping ground without any serious evidence that the mass of accounts connected to Velebit are indeed connected. Also, please refrain from tagging IP pages; in 2014, IP addresses are so rarely dedicated (they tend to be reassigned regularly) so the next person who gets assigned that IP address is going to be treated like a sockpuppet instead of a potential new editor. Declining CU because there's really nothing to check. Risker (talk) 03:13, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • My comment: It is a high time to stop this farce of administering the scapegoat Velebit - a dumping ground without any serious evidence that the mass of accounts connected to Velebit are indeed connected. Moreover the 'history expert' Joy (talk) is a college dropout. The No such user (talk) is just a Joy (talk) proxy a team mate which can be easily figured out by the blocks coming from the same admin.--65.220.39.97 (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Wow. Personal attacks much? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
• To start with, I semi-protected the article for a week. Concerning Croatian origin, any body wants to take the Tito-era edition of Andric and see what would be written in the preface? It would be a reliable source.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:52, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
  • There is a RfC open. Go there if you want to discuss issues with this article.--65.220.39.97 (talk) 18:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

More vandalisms at St. Joseph's College (Hong Kong)

User:Rinirisma has vandalised articles in WP:Hong Kong again. Unfortunately, I have no rollback rights.

Affected Article: St. Joseph's College (Hong Kong)

With the frequent vandalisms on St. Joseph's College (Hong Kong) , I recommend semi-protecting the page.

There is a high chance that User Talk:Rinirisma is a sockmaster of IP User 221.126.237.2.

Thank you.

Alvin 13:41, 11 December 2015 (UTC) Alvin the Almighty

I've blocked the account and reverted the vandalism, both on this article and Diocesan Boys' School. The IP is currently blocked. I'll not semi-protect an article in such a state, though another admin might. I have watchlisted it. See Help:Reverting for instructions on how to cope without rollback. -- zzuuzz 14:04, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Fringe Material, canvassing & admin abuse of process

On 20 October Insider introduced the claim that the ARA Libertad (Q-2) is featured on Russian Currency . The source (Translation: ) does not back up this claim.

Кстати, именно пользователи Рунета разрыли и еще одну нестыковку на “полотне” достоинством в 500 целковых. По их версии, стоящий на приколе около Архангельского морского вокзала парусник никогда и близко не приближался к России. И уж тем более к Архангельску. Посчитав количество мачт и местоположение рубки, парусник идентифицировали как аргентинский корабль “Либертад”. В изображении иностранного корабля на российской банкноте начали выискивать едва ли не намек на экономические “сношения” двух стран.

— Не нужно искать тайного смысла там, где его нет, — говорит Игорь Крылков. — На фотографии, с которой я срисовывал порт, стоял современный пароход. Но в последний момент в Центробанке сказали, что с общей идеей банкноты пароход не стыкуется. Я срочно нашел фотографию с тем парусником и перерисовал. Откуда мне было знать, что в Архангельск он не заходил?

В желании найти тайный знак или как минимум ляп на “картинах” Крылкова народ доходил до смешного. Так, изображенной на 50-рублевой банкноте “даме” приписали портретное сходство с зампредом ЦБ Татьяной Парамоновой.

By the way, the Russian Internet users break and another inconsistency in the "canvas" in denominations of 500 rubles. According to them, standing on a moored near Arkhangelsk Sea Commercial Port sailboat never comes close to Russia. And even more so to Arkhangelsk. Considering the number of masts and location of the cabin, was identified as an Argentine sailing ship "Libertad". In the image of a foreign ship on the Russian bill began to seek out almost a hint of economic "relations" between the two countries.

- No need to look for hidden meaning where there is none, - says Igor Krylkov. - The photograph, which I was drawing the port was a modern ship. But at the last moment in the Central Bank said that the general idea of ​​the steamer does not fit the bill. I immediately found a photo with the sailboat and redraw. How could I know that in Arkhangelsk, he did not come?

The desire to find a secret sign or at least gaffe on "pictures" Krylkova people reached ridiculous. For example, shown in 50-ruble banknote "lady" was credited with a portrait likeness with deputy chairman Tatiana Paramonova.

The source doesn't state it is this ship merely that this claim is based on Internet rumours of secret signs and gaffes that the original author dismisses as ridiculous. Noting this to be unreliably sourced and WP:FRINGE material I removed it. Insider has insisted it is included, partially quoting the source out of context. I have attempted to engage on the talk page but the discussion seems to be going round in circles, with semantic arguments eg that we must use exactly what the source says. I also took this to WP:RSN (Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 200#Ship on a banknote), the discussion there went nowhere instead he resorted to trying to analyse photographs to prove the point.

After tagging the material for WP:FRINGE and waiting a week for better sourcing I removed it today. Insider has immediately reverted and canvassed on the talk page for other users (apparently admins) to come to his aid . In a breach of WP:TPG the comments are in Russian.

Alex Bakharev, Ezhiki, Ymblanter, прошу вас как администраторов английской Википедии, и знающих русский язык, как родной, прокомментировать эту тему. Чьё понимание текста интервью корректное? А то 7 дней, никаких комментариев со стороны оппонента, только продолжение удаления текста.

Alex Bakharev, Ezhiki, Ymblanter, I beg you as administrators of the English Misplaced Pages, and speak Russian as a mother, to comment on the subject. Whose understanding of the text of the interview correct? And then 7 days, no comments from the opponent, only to continue the removal of text.

He hasn't even tried to engage properly in talk. In response to another user agreeing with me and removing the material Insider continues to claim the author confirmed the story and it isn't just Internet rumour .

Ymblanter has responded to that call, reverting , and threatening to block me on my talk page . His allegation that I had reverted 3 times today is untrue, I reverted once and had given no indication that I intended to do so again. Point of fact, I didn't, I immediately went to the talk page. That intervention appears to me to be an abuse of admin privilege. He is now threatening users who disagree on the talk page . Fringe material such as Internet rumour and conjecture is not suitable content for wikipedia, its sad that an admin would intervene to force its incorporation into this article. WCM_email 17:23, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, WCM was edit-warring in Arkhangelsk, had to shut up at the talk page since consensus was clearly against him, and now tokk their problems to another article. The editing history is just their, everybody can check whether they have any understanding of Misplaced Pages policies concerning edit warring. Note that Insider and I are native Russian speakers.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

And obvioously I was not going to block WCM myself, just to take them to 3RRN, where they would blocked by another admin.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Note also that they did not notify me about this thread.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I have to say that this discussion troubles me. In particular "I will first get you blocked, and then see whether I need to revert" goes deeply against the spirit of Misplaced Pages. It's neither cordial nor likely to improve the encyclopaedia, but rather high-handed, and arguably baiting ("come on, try me! I'll get you blocked! See if I don't"). The whole debate seems to deeply out of proportion to the obscure question to begin with - even if the ship is on the bank note (rather unlikely) and if this were reliably sourced (as far as I can tell, it's not), it would still be debatable if this is relevant for the article - it might or might not be useful, but it's a marginal improvement, if any. This should certainly not lead to threats and warnings. Let me also point out that neither of you seem to be able to count reverts. Curry, you have two reverts - per "A 'revert' means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors". The first removal counts. Ymblanter, Curry has two reverts (btw, exactly as many as you now have), but WP:3RR forbids "more than three reverts". "More than three" is four or more, although, of course, multiple reverts are rarely a good idea. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, reverting and keeping it to exactly 3RR to avoid blocking is usually considered to be disruptive. Concerning the discussion on my talk page, this was certainly not the best of my edits today, I overreacted when the user instead of stopping reverting and discussing the issue beyond the "fringe theory" mantra decided to explain to me that they can revert as long as they want.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:06, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Totally agree with Stephan. Ymblanter's behavior has been highly inappropriate. I was borderline about the abusiveness until reading Ymblanter's comment here. Why? Because the baiting and aggressive behavior that Stephan points out is actually being continued in this AN/I report: aggressive ("had to shut up"), threatening ("where they would blocked by another admin"), and even outright childish ("they did not notify me about this thread"). This is unacceptable.--MarshalN20 18:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• There is nothing childish about wanting to be notified of this thread. It is both a reasonable expectation and a requirement. HighInBC 18:27, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I thought what was unacceptable was not notifying people of discussions about them here. It says so right at the top of this page. LjL (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Even if a nominator does not notify a person about an AN/I discussion, there is always another user who either points it out to the nominator or performs the notification themselves. It's childish to attempt to use the lack of notification as evidence of misbehavior. It's all the more childish that an administrator complains about not being notified of a discussion in the administrator's noticeboard. Moreover, instead of apologizing or (at least) disengaging, the admin makes a comment about "disappearing" from English WP (), twice (). Is there not a maturity check in the admin process?--MarshalN20 18:46, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not think anything else is required of me in this thread, but I was expecting someone to react on the appropriateness of the maturity comment. Nobody did. Fine.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm shocked by what is going. That is not WP:FRINGE. Please, read the source. The designer of that banknote Igor Krylkov does not refute, but confirms in the interview that the sailboat Libertad depicted on the banknote. User WCM starting edit war a few days ago. View the article history. Repeatedly attempted to add to the article the STS Sedov, referring to non-authoritative sources (including wiki-sites). He simply doesn't understand the Russian language, and uses Google Translate to translate. I have long tried to convince him, but it was useless. Then he began to ignore the debate and continued to edit the article. I asked to comment on talk page 3 Russian-speaking administrators. Also you ask to comment of the interview of any Russian-speaking user (preferably native Russian speaker). P.S. Sorry, my english is not good. --Insider (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Ymblanter's claim I did not notify him of this thread, I notified him well in advance of my intention to resort to ANI. Close on 10 hrs in advance and I had the courtesy to ping him to let him know I filed it. WCM_email 02:16, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Uninvolved ANI drama watcherTo be frank Ymblanter may have been a teeny tiny bit high handed here, but then again I personally think you should give admins a wide, wide berth seeing all the hassle they have to go through on a daily basis, therefore, Ymblanter should not be blamed. However continuing with the same degree of frankness I can say that the edit war is so, so childish. If you are not a native speaker, just let the native speakers do their bit. If machine translation was as good as it seems we wont need a Russian wikipedia, just click russian on any article and the machine translates it for you. Seeing that such shenanigans are not going on we should just let the experts do their stuff, you don't see me barging into turkish wiki with a bunch of machine translated material in my hand demanding that they accept the "new facts" that I have "uncovered". Good drama anyway, proves that ANI is on par with any soap opera on the Tv. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:08, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

This is the English wikipedia so your analogy is utterly irrelevant. I'm not trying to create content either. The fact is the source doesn't back up the claim made, Insider has canvassed to get his mates to strong arm his edit into the article. Ymblanter has abused his admin privileges to intimidate other editors. This is fringe material at best and it's ridiculous the lengths they ate going to force this into the article. And for your information another Russian speaker confirmed that the source doesn't support claim made. WCM_email 11:49, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

First, I never abused my admin privileges, since I never take any admin action in relation to this article, nor ever promised to take any. It is unfortunate you are repeating all this bullshit all over again. Concerning the Russian text, I read it, and the claim is backed up there. Since I am a Russian speaker and you are not, I do not see how your opinion on the text you can not possibly understand can be of any value.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Anybody around interested in warning WSM that personal attacks are unwelcome on Misplaced Pages ?--Ymblanter (talk) 12:09, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you are being to thin-skinned in this conflict. Try to de-escalate, not escalate. I've left a corresponding message here. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Well, I got more shit thrown on me in these two days than in the rest of the year together.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous, arguing from authority that because I'm not a native Russian speaker I can't comment. Well , Ezhiki has already commented that the source doesn't back this claim and they are a native Russian speaker. You also claimed that at Talk:Arkhangelsk#500 Ruble Note I was forced to shut up at the talk page, bullshit, I had a perfectly amicable discussion and from the outset was prepared to compromise. I also did not edit war on that article, nor have I edit warred at this article or even come close to 3 reverts. I never gave you any indication that I had any intention to revert again and indicated I would use the talk page . Yet you're still bandying around accustions of edit warring, which is of itself an unwarranted personal attack. This is a direct threat to block me on the basis of a blatantly false accusation of 3 reverts. So here we have an admin abusing their admin priveliges to force dubious material into an article, asserting that no one else is permitted to comment, threatening to block on the basis of a false allegation and continuing to fling mud at an editor with gay abandon to cover up the fact they were acting in a completely inappropriate manner. Stop the personal attacks via false allegations and stop misrepresenting what the source says. WCM_email 13:03, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

To add, stopping these false accusations would be a very good start to de-escalate the conflict. WCM_email 13:06, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

In the diff you mentioned Ezhiki said that the MK diff is insufficient to support the claim, not that the MK article says it is wrong. This is exactly the same thing I myself written on the Libertad talk page before the shitstorm started. This is a weak claim (since it is only one article, and it only sites the artist, and the artist himself kind of confirms but does not expand much), but nevertheless it is a valid claim, and the discussion on the talk page should be about whether this statement supported by this valid claim should be in the article and if it should then what wording should be used, not about that I am a liar, that I abuse my admin privileges or that the claim is made up.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Besides, I still fail to see how edit-warring in an article can be an entirely appropriate reaction. This is not, and indeed we have a policy on edit-warring.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:17, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Will you stop making false accusations of edit warring, they're unwarranted and completely inappropriate. Again your threat to block was an abuse of admin privelige. And we've gone from the "source validates the claim, respect my authority" to the source "kind of confirms"; "kind of" is not good enough. Removal of unsourced or inadequately sourced material is directed by WP:V "All material in Misplaced Pages mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed." I have repeatedly asked for a reliable source and waited patiently for one to be provided, ignoring a series of personal attacks from yourself and Insider. Yet all along your response has been to claim the source is adequate, demanding we respect your superior language skills, yet plainly by your own admission now the source isn't up to it as I've said all along. WCM_email 13:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I am afraid I need to stop at this point. You are obviously unable or unwilling to understand what I write.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to be sure that we are all on the same page (especially the two of you ;-): I've seen two quite different claims. (a): The ship on the banknote is ARA Libertad (Q-2) (a statement about the banknote(s)). and (b): There are internet rumours according to which the ship on the banknote is ARA Libertad (Q-2) (a claim about the existence of these rumours). Can you make clear which source you think does or does not support which of the two different claims? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

There is only one source I know of, this is the MK article. It says that (a) there were interet rumours it is Libertad; (b) the artist confirmed that it is indeed Libertad, since he was just has taken a nice ship from a photo, not knowing the ship has never been to Arkhangelsk. To be precise, the artist does not say "Libertad" in the two sentences which are quoted, he says "this ship", but the context of the article makes it clear it is Libertad (or at least unless the quote is misplaced). Furthermore, this is a reliable source, however, (i) there is only one source saying it is Libertad, one other RS (the Central Bank of Russia) just calling it "ship", and a number of sources, none of which is reliable, saying this is Sedov; (ii) MK is a tabloid, and does not have the same credibility as academic sources; (iii) it is up to discussion whether this info, even though backed by a RS, needs to be in the article at all, and if it is, where and how it should be presented. I do not have strong opinions on (iii); in Arkhangelsk, the implemented solution (not calling the ship Sedov and not calling it Libertad) is perfectly fine with me.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Again this is misrepresenting the source, the artist doesn't confirm it is the Libertad. Based on the vague reply by the artist they are inferring he does but he does not explicitly. He then goes on to rubbish the idea of secret signs or gaffes. The source doesn't support the claim to an acceptable standard for wikipedia. Ymblanter admits as much above with his kind of remarks above. The only thing the source is good for is asserting there are Internet rumours and we don't as a rule include fringe material of this nature in articles. WCM_email 16:13, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I wanted to reply to this, but whatever I do now would cause another shitstorm. I would rather shut up and see what others have to say.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:19, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Wee Curry Monster, yes, the artist does basically confirm it is the Libertad. It was put on the 500 ruble note in the 1990s in artwork that featured the port of Arkhangelsk. MK says the ship has been identified as the Libertad and people wonder if its appearance on there stems from some economic goodwill between the two countries. The artist said there is no hidden meaning to be read, and what really happened was that he was originally using a steamer in his draft but the Central Bank disliked that idea, so he substituted a sailing ship instead. He says he drew the ship based on a photograph and says he had no idea it was a vessel that had never been to Arkhangelsk. Considering this must be the biggest gaffe of his career, he seems to be the most reliable source possible on how this all happened. If it had not been the Libertad, the artist would have responded much differently, for example, saying it was not the Libertad after all or was based on the Sedov or some other ship. He most certainly would not have referred to it as a "ship that had never been to Arkhangelsk" if there was any doubt that it could have been. —Мандичка 😜 23:22, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• This is a ridiculously long discussion about something that is not clear and on which Misplaced Pages must not make a conclusion. I'm surprised that Ymblanter claiming to be a native speaker can't help us here. That said, while my Russian, once fairly fluent, these days is a little rusty , I read Я срочно нашел фотографию с тем парусником и перерисовал the same as the Google translation: I immediately found a photo with the sailboat and redraw, and therein lies the ambiguity: Крылкова does not state that 'the' photo is one of the Libertad. Our Wikpedia must report what might be according to sources, the 3r (if there was one) is stale already so let's now pour some oil on these waters and let the ship sail away in peace. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
  • The important detail is in the following line where he says, "How could I have known it (the ship in the photo) hadn't been to Arkhangelsk?" This is clear in context that he is discussing the Libertad, which has never been to Arkhangelsk. Any other ship could potentially have been to Arkhangelsk. The Libertad on the other hand has been ruled out as having ever been there. This is WP:IAR common sense here. At best it's "citation needed" but this certainly does NOT fall under WP:FRINGE. —Мандичка 😜 05:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: I added additional sources. This info has been published by currency museums in Moscow and the Crimea, and by a Saint Petersburg collectibles journal that has been around 20 years. This is just not WP:FRINGE. —Мандичка 😜 06:40, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Wikimandia for adding additional sources, I first looked for additional sources myself unsuccessfully before I tagged the material. I'm afraid that I agree with Kudpung that the MK source is neither reliable enough or explicit to make the conclusion originally made. WCM_email 11:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive, edit warring editor

Damianmx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Has little more than 100 edits on Misplaced Pages, virtually sole purpose (apart from a few edits) being to edit war,------, ignoring the voice of the majority, removing content wherever he can,-- and making further disruptive edits conform his agenda. Just as of some seconds ago, additionally, I reverted a blatantly disruptive edit by an IP, after which User Damianmx instantly hopped in and reverted my edit loaded with a WP:BATTLEGROUND summary, accusing me of "pov-pushing" even though the article clearly states its part of the definition, and the IP his edit was clearly disruptive.

The user is clearly not here to built this encyclopedia conform the expected standards. Though me and User:Jaqeli have warned him on numerous occassions to cease his activities, and left him a warning on his page as well, he simply does not listen and continues to edit war and make disruptive edits.

I also don't believe he's a new user either, for someone with little more than 100 edits having such a stance and behavioural editorial pattern, which includes the copy-pasting of material from peoples' user pages/contributions list (content from prior to his registration here, which is a mere 5 days ago), in order to fuel his arguments. The only useful action appropriate here, as he ignores litteraly everything and continues to be a disruptive nuisance to the community and Misplaced Pages's content, is moderator intervention.

Edit; Literally, as of some seconds ago he reverted another user again who reverted his disruptive edits, conform his WP:BATTLEGROUND/WP:WAR standards. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually I just noticed, he violated WP:3RR as well. ---. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:33, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Non-admin comment:I have notified the editor whom you are reporting about. Please note that it is necessary to notify the editor whom you are reporting. Thanks Ayub407 17:30, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

It is evident from Louis's edit history and multiple talk-page entries that his work on wikipedia is narrowly focused on promoting Iran/Persia by arbitrarily inserting items related to this topic into various articles. Recent examples of this manic behavior: Louis' Iran/Persia promotion is often done at the expense of article readability and creation of multiple run-on sentences that are bloated with WP:UNDUE Persia information. Here's a prime example of a Persia-bloated run-on sentence favored by Louis:

To ensure its survival as a Christian kingdom being threatened for centuries by their Safavid, Afsharid, and Qajar Iranian suzerains, the eastern-Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti, being the most dominant Georgian power at that time, led by Heraclius II found itself able to abjure any dependence on Persia or any other power by signing the Treaty of Georgievsk in 1783...

None of the Persia-focused narrative was discussed either by Louis or user Jaqeli prior to when they were originally inserted. These items are promotional in nature and unwarranted in articles of limited scope, particularly as there are separate history pages specifically dedicated to these topics. When I provided my reasoning regarding above edits with Louis and user Jaqeli, they failed to furnish reasonable explanations for the current text and limited their responses to condescending remarks about me being an unestablished user. This is not surprising considering that Louis has a history of personal attacks, about which he has been warned. Having two like-minded users (Louis and Jaqeli) bullying one editor (Me) does not establish a consensus, particularly as they are unwilling to provide clear reasoning beyond "I just don't like it", "You're a POV-pusher", "You're an inexperienced user and you should just stop"--Damianmx (talk) 20:28, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Its interesting why a user who's blatantly and visibly edit warring, ignoring the voice of the majority/the discussion on a talk page, as well as disruptively editing (as well as violating 3RR; see above) is distorting visible facts here once again. Its not in your profit, believe me. Me and Jaqeli extensively and appropriately explained on the talk page of the Georgians article for why that content should remain. Everyone can read it back. You however ignored all that, and simply continued your habit of edit-warring, which resulted even in a blatant 3RR violation as of today. For a "new user" who registed not more than 5 days ago to have that much violating/unjustified editorial experience and habits on his/her curriculum, as well as a very intriguing knowledge about numerous WP's, it only justifies our doubts (supported by the extensive evidence) that you're clearly not here with an honest and legit reason to edit. For that much being a disruption to Misplaced Pages's integrity, community, and content. This user claims to be "new here", but already copy-pastes content from other people's talk page from events that took place prior to his registration on Wiki, in a futile attempt to boost his dishonest arguments. Very, very intriguing. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:49, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Also, regarding the diffs Damianmx gave in order to distort reality (even though I'm absolutely not obliged giving responses to that, as its from a happening prior to his registration on Wiki and already dealt with), and an attempt to switch the channel from his eminemt violations (incl. 3RR, etc etc.);

- I dropped 8 top sources written by numerous historians right after this edit. (Of course he wont link that diff here.)

- This edit was a reversion of pretty clear disruption which had included the blanketing of content that was not included in his/her edit summary, the removal of core categories, nor did it include any counter-sourcing.

- And regarding the last attempt; All of Eastern Armenia (which includes Yerevan) was under the Persian sway until 1722,(Armenian historian George Bournoutian, Eastern Armenia in the last decades of Persian rule, 1807-1828, Undena Publications, 1982, ISBN 978-0890031230, page 8]). The guy in question in the article, was born in 1710, in Yerevan,(The Heritage of Armenian Literature: From the eighteenth century to modern times. Vol. 3, Wayne State University Press, 2005, ISBN 978-0814332214 page 49) which is thus during the Persian rule, and thus, the category, (Category:Persian Armenians) was completely justified. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:32, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the report! This user has been variously informed and warned on his damaging performances, but there have been no betterments. He has also violated the three-revert rule today.
–Rye-96 (talk) 23:36, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Rye-96, it is very sweet of you to vouch for Louis but, unfortunately, as a fellow Iran/Persia promoter, who has been subject to multiple controversies and edit wars, you are not in a position to pass judgement on the quality my performance or to provide unbiased opinion in this matter. Did Louis call on you to write this comment? If so, it would not be surprising, considering that he was encouraging other users to come to this board, all the while he did not even bother to inform me, as he is required. That says something doesn't it? --Damianmx (talk) 08:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

That "other user" (Jaqeli) whom you erraneously label, is unfortunately involved in your mess as well. I simply left him a note to comment here as he surely has something to say too, given that he's also strongly dissatisfied with your disruptive/edit warring editorial pattern on the Georgian-related pages, and given that he is simply directly involved in this. Furthermore, he's mentioned here in the discussion, so it was a must. User Ayub was simply ahead of me and dropped the notification on your page just a few minutes ahead, and I thanked him for that. It was minutes prior to me leaving a notification on involved user Jaqeli's page furthermore.-. Baseless and failed allegation of canvassing and personal attacks here, now against User:Rye-96 as well. - LouisAragon (talk) 10:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Damianmx: What do you mean "Iran/Persia promoter"? That's a strange phraseology, dear. What is it about Iran that you believe I've been trying to promote? All my efforts have been about improvement for the articles relevant to my knowledge and study, and removal of the nationalism and religionism which has been unfortunately not rare in West Asian and Caucasian topics.
I think you are exaggerating by using the word multiple, but I do agree that I've had my own wrong experiences where I have always faced the outcomes and I've been guided.
Although I didn't come here to side with anyone, I don't see any problem with cooperating with the Misplaced Pages community to solve a problem. We're all here to improve the contents provided in the encyclopedia; that's what it is all about.
–Rye-96 (talk) 11:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to note that I was involved in the beginning of the dispute and therefore I am not going to take any action, but some resolution is needed--Ymblanter (talk) 15:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

vandalism I can't seem to fix

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Would someone take a look at Atlanta_United_FC right now? I can't find the right version to revert to and it's terrible. Katie 23:28, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Warning, it's a big shock pic! - Something weird is going on there... even if I try to open pretty old revisions, the shock pic is still there. Maybe it's embedded in something that's transcluded from the article? LjL (talk) 23:30, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, should have warned people about that but I was in a hurry. I don't get it but we better figure it out. Katie 23:32, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

From your description I assume it is the same pic that I saw at Felix Magath. --Jaellee (talk) 23:40, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Katie. It was in the templates, and should be fixed now. --Bongwarrior (talk) 23:41, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

@Bongwarrior: which template? -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 23:57, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

It was probably {{portalbar}}, which is used both in this article and in the one mentioned below. clpo13_(talk) 00:02, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

That and {{WSJtopic}} - both are redirects. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Wait, don't close this yet. I think I saw a shock pic at The Bronx High School of Science while I was editing it thirty minutes ago. That article doesn't use either of these templates, though. Well, the weird image is gone now but still... the image contained nothing that anyone under 18 should see. epicgenius (talk) 02:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

There was a political screed on Pioneer 11 earlier as well - this appears to have been related to the template vandalism issue as far as I can tell. These MAY take a little while to job-queue their way out. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Note for posterity here. For this kind of template vandalism, "related changes" (linked under the sidebar) is immensely useful. — Earwig  03:48, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

User Mangokeylime reported that there was a shock image on State Terrorism at Misplaced Pages talk:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Likely the same one. How do we fix it? Crboyer (talk) 05:22, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• Note for the record: A user reached out because we were still getting complaints about this via OTRS since the cache was still visible for a lot of logged out users. We are running a cache clearing script (created for a similar attack a while back) as I type to try and fix that issue. Jalexander--WMF 07:28, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

There is also an image at Tenerife-North_Airport and I don't know what to do with this and am a complete noob. Tricorder42 (talk) 07:32, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Purged, that was a cache as well (from one of the earlier attacks today). There are a bunch of different tools that will help purge (the most common are the utc clock in the upper right hand corner of the screen which you can click on to purge or a little tab with a * that you can click on) but in general anyone can purge manually by adding ?action=purge to the end of the url (or if there is already a query string &action=purge). Jalexander--WMF 07:40, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm really curious what this shock image, I looked at the templates and couldn't find recent vandalism. Has it been oversighted?—_{Merry Christmas:Unknown} 18:29, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Cyberpower678: It's oversighted, and I think it was an image of someone's privates. Did anyone else see the same thing? epicgenius (talk) 01:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Damn, I never get here in time to see the shock images. EEng (talk) 02:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)f

@EEng: A fan of the macabre, I see... epicgenius (talk) 02:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I don't know, dangit, because I never get to see it. It's really unfair. I feel there should be some kind of user right for this -- you know, for users who need to see... special, secret, naughty things. Like Checkuser! EEng (talk) 04:37, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Now I also want to see it :) --Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 08:04, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

But Edgars2007, do you really want to see a wolly separated from the main body? Just saying, Epicgenius said "macabre" not 'explicit'; and of course EEng, you have too much material already without adding anything else. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 08:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

You're just jealous of my gorgeous museums. EEng (talk) 08:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I agree now that an indef is inappropriate, and the original block has now expired. Spshu had been blocked twice before for 72 hours for edit warring and 3RR violations. What about an IBAN for Spshu and Electricburst1996? Would that help fix this behavioral problem or possibly make the situation worse? Katie 00:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

--Alec Smithson (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Although they have their own religious text, they do seem to follow Muslim proscriptions for their diet, and there was a court case concerning prison diets that should be mentioned in the article.

why would you revdel it? You need to reblock her. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

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