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Christianity: India / Oriental O. / Syriac Start‑class Low‑importance

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A fact from Knanaya appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 6 March 2005. The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that the Nasrani Menorah is the symbol of the Knanaya community in South India, acknowledged as Christian Jews by the Vatican? A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2005/March.

Talk archive

Older discussions are in /Archive 1. -- Chonak (talk) 00:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The Topic (Knanaya) should be deleted

The page itself is a goof. 1) No body in Kerala can claim as monoethnic due to a study by BBC in October. 2) They lack proofs ( no copper plates of significance are there making it just a myth not history). 3) Their practices have more resemblance with Portuguese rather than claimed jewish formalities. 4) All the peoples (including converted christians) worshiping under churches was admitted and entered into the so called knanaya register on formation of archdiocese of kottayam 5) If kananayas have pure jewish blood then there shouldn't be any person in the community with blue eyes. But there are so many fellows belonging to the community with blue eyes stating Portuguese connection.(similarly one more endogamic community in kerala kuttichira,near kozhikode says they are pure arabic.there is no Portuguese connection here but only british connection). please see these documents also. http://nasrani.net/2007/02/16/the-plates-and-the-privileges/#comment-4325 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.17.230.253 (talk) 12:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Knanaya Pentecostal?

Officially there are only two 'sabhas' - the catholics and jacobites. the knanaya pentecostal group is one formed by those who went against the customs and joined either the traditional pentecostal churches or other prayer-groups. they do not necessarily follow the same customs as that of traditional knas. somehow, they want to leave the fold yet maintain their kna identity which is perfectly alright. But a kna individual cannot continue to be one unless s/he continues to follow tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.254.126 (talk) 15:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

If so then why there is no Knanaya Muslim too :) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

There are 10,000 Knanaya muslims, but they don't mix with people who do not keep all the law of Moses.

Pentecostal is the true religion! Speaking in tongues and worshiping GOd! Not Mary. 81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Peshitta

Some automatic filter on this page won't allow correct spelling of the Peshitta to be included. This is a great pity as it is THE central aspect of Knanaya "Hebrew" life.81.103.121.144 (talk) 01:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I found the solution by linking to the Jewish Gospels pages which at lest discuss the Peshitta.81.103.121.144 (talk) 19:34, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

81 103 121 144

Hello 81 103 121 144 Instead of editing the article like Knanaya a number of times continueously, please learn how to use the sand box.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:40, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, it is because I am disabled and can only do a little at a time. Very sorry. 81.103.121.144 (talk) 19:27, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

you may be disabled and because of that inferiority complex you are making insulting allegations towards nasrani's forgetting that knanaya women were raped during portugese inquisition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 06:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Nasranis are wonderful people, it was certainly not my intention to make any "insulting allegations" could you clarify how please so that I can make corrections? Thank you.81.103.121.144 (talk) 18:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

with duo respect,'living fossils',is that a term to indicate the wonderful people? even no genetic tests until now claimed the jewish origins of knanayas,how nasrani's alone be living fossils ? if then knanayas are a cross breed of portugese-arabians like latin-christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 07:24, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Living fossil has no malicious meaning it is in fact a complement to the academically acknowledged antiquity of the tradition. I mentioned this last time. If you read the section carefully you will see it says there is no difference between Nasrani and Knanaya.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Even there is no specific reliable reason for the creation of archdiocese of kottayam. It is been known that false copper plates with arabic and portugese inscription was the reson behind it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 07:28, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I am interested if you can produce a reference concerning the copper plate forgery which you mention.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

what type of reference you need,the original copper plate you produced before pius xth? and I like to see the original copper plate defing a kna's jewish ethos. But I prefer to see a genetic test report of a 100% jew and a knanaya more than that :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 12:12, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Notorious Southist Propaganda

This article is fully stupid propaganda by citing sources of dubious credibility and misrepresenation. POv is raised and editers are requested to arrive on credibility and veracity of the sources cited in the article.

Please see the earlier archived discussion: /Archive 1.

Please do not chnage the article with out consensus. EasoPothen (talk) 23:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree the name should probably be Thekkumbagar and you make some good points, however, since you call the Southist tradition about themselves "fully stupid propaganda", then I don't think you are qualified to make any neutral edits, for example you said not to make any edits without consensus but then you changed the name to Thekkumbagar without consensus (though I sort-of defend your change now unless anyone else reverts your change). If no one reverts your edits then it is proof of consensus. I actually agreed your name change last time, but it was reverted by those who did not agree, so clearly you and I were not enough for a consensus. We have had a significant amount of hate-vandalism on this page from people with the same kind of POV you seem to express, it is a good article as it stands right now with a good number of references and still just needs more references to be found and inserted. Let's just wait for other participants to come along and put in what they have before the two of us decide to make any radical changes. Please chill-out/relax have a nice cup of tea, take a deep breath to let go of everything which stresses you out and then let's continue to talk about what changes should and should not be made. :) 81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Although I reverted your edit because it did have a heavy political bias, I am systematically checking references for every individual change you made and putting them back in once verified. By the end of the day I think I will have completed a a section entitled criticisms which everything directly opposed to the article should be in. That way we can prevent political bias from seeping through the entire article.81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:15, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the term Jewish Christians which has many connotations I agree that there may be a problem with the term and that perhaps something like Judeo-Christian would be a more accurately descriptive term. I would like Robin Klein's input on this question. Is Jewish Christian an accurate enough description Robin? 81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:31, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I have again added POV for all the sections as the information in each section is propaganda material with wrong citation. Also added the clean up tag. Please do not remove them again. There are a bunch of propagandist working on putting back propaganda material in this page for several years now. In that case i will go ahead and request the intervention of an administrator. EasoPothen (talk) 06:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

We already requested admins to help deal with vandalism from people who do not understand the meaning of the article. There is no propaganda in this article. The article is currently being watched by several people who are vigilant against this vandal with a very strongly anti POV.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:34, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I request you to work in a sandbox if you are really interested in improving the article. What stands now is a low level propaganda material with absolute fake citation. The references given are manipulated and nothing on proper history is written in this page. The entire article need to be changed. EasoPothen (talk) 07:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I request you to work in the sandbox :) I have been doing Wiki for a very long time. All the peers are happy with the article except you and you have already proven your "anti" POV agenda. This disqualifies you from objective editing. But if you want to present the facts here first. If there is a dispute then it can be resolved here and then when consensus is arrived at it will be put into the article. That is the way it works when controversies arise.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

There has been unresolved POV in this article for a very long time. None of the stories mentioned in this article has any supportive evidences or rather any proofs. Misplaced Pages is not the place to paste some diocese propaganda. I invite line by line discussion on each of the points mentions in this article. Sectional POV's are required as each section contains propaganda materials. EasoPothen (talk) 06:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Really feel sorry for the ill informed person, who questions the "ENDOGAMY" of Knanaya people. I can give you the details of authentic DNA tests performed on Knanaya community members. Please find the link here, https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq...SEk/edit?pli=1

The DNA test clearly shows that knanaya are genetically affiliated with Middle Eastern population. Please keep your bigotry to yourself.

=========================

TO ALL SOUTHISTS WHO CLAIM ENDOGAMY OF 1600 Years

1. ) No species which had undergone endogamy for 1600 years cannot survive (scientific evidence proof is available,example is pharaos of egypt).
2. ) Genetic tests of Southists are available in www.ysearch.org. It reveals that, there is no difference in genes between northists and southists. this reveils that there is no genetic match between jews in israel and southists.
3. ) The stories of origin of southists dates back to 15th century where vellallachetties converted to christianity.(No intentional insults here)
4. ) Out of the results of DNA samples tested, 50% mDNA tests indicated South Indian Origin(Dravidian).

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 06:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC) The abstract from the letter of Pope Pius Xth on creation of Archdiocese of Kottayam due to split between Mathew Makil and Northists...

“In support of our complaints from a social point of view, we beg to call your Holiness’ kind attention to the past history of the church in Malabar. The sudists, too low and too insignificant to be counted in the general community, were not allowed to be ordained priests; and though there were native bishops even from the time of the apostle, St Thomas, not one of them has been a sudist. The consecration of Mar Makil, a sudist is the first instance of the violation of our admitted superiority and privilege for centuries. Although later on, the sudists were allowed to be ordained as priests through the exertions of Latin bishops, there is no instance of a sudist priest governing even a northist parish. We are therefore extremely sorry that the Vatican with all its proverbial respect for the precedents would think it fit not only to deprive us of or time honoured superiority and privilege but also to subject us to the rule of a sudist bishop-which is indeed a great national insult. Our only consolation when we think of all this is , that Rome has been kept in the dark as to the true state of affairs, and that she will soon rectify this unhappy error.”

Example of Fakeness

This is the opening sentence of this article: Thekkumbagar/Knanaya or more accurately Q'nanaya, (Heb:קנאים, Malayalam: ക്നാനായ, Syriac:ܛܢܢܐ, Ar:قينان) from Kerala, India, are a Jewish Christian people of early endogamous Kenite descent.

The references given are Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. All of these are fake references. Some one pasted their propaganda and for authenticity faked the sources as Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. In fact there are many scholars who have written about Southists but none of them are cited either correctly or wrongly.EasoPothen (talk) 07:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Present your quotations here. We are all interested in what you have to say. Please demonstrate it here, then we can put it into the article.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Lot of attempts are there for making knanaites superior than other christians. This is a disputable attempt that neither of them attempt to provide scientific tests providing their jewish identity(atleast one). Even the dispute icon in the page is deleted by vandals.Having whitish complexion is the method of considering one as knanite,then whole whitish christians should be considered as knanites(let us forget the similarity between christians in Goa and knanites). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 07:22, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems that there are people trying to defame the Knanaya people with baseless slander. ] (talk) 10:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

poor knanayas.they even kills Sister Abaya and even removes the references from the knanaya page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

What kind of logic is that? This is an ethnicity page. Why should the death of a Catholic nun represent people who could very well be other faiths? Furthermore, why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people? Please improve your grammer next time you post. ] (talk) 21:55, 03 May 2011 (UTC)

Since it is dealing with (your) ethnicity(purely jewish as claimed), it does sounds well. your answer has it all.No such incident has been reported in the history of Syrian churches except knanaya's(you should be thankful for native christians for making them harassed in the name of this incident(being christian) apart from making them 'living fossils'). I like to know the mistake in the sentence too :) Mr/Mrs.Grammer teacher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you :). Sorry about my outburst. I actually never stated that I am Knanaya and I am not. Unfortunately, I do not see how my reply has "it all". Like I said earlier, not every Knanaya person is Syrian Christian or even Christian in a broad sense for that matter. Furthermore, why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people? Is there a list of murder cases on the pages of other ethnic groups? ] (talk) 22:16, 04 May 2011 (UTC)

Please go through the sentences you wrote. I sensed a smell of intolerance(which usually a character of this community).Sorry to know that you are not a kna.I guess you are just a 'living fossil' as specified in the main article. regarding , why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people,the abaya case was brutally screwed up by the fellows in this community to save the culprits.Even one political leader belonging to kna was there in delhi to make it possible (according to intelligence report by kerala police).From these everyone now know that it is not an individual's action but a community project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 11:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

There are plenty of middleastern people of arabic and syrians as syric christians in kerala. basically these are not at all a surprise. if people can understand these middleastern sense we can even compare a syrian christian to muslims from middeast or we may compare muslims to a syrian/kananay community . so simple. but these people eventually mixed in to kerala population over centuries such as locally marrying and populated. Any of these featured people in orthodox or syrian churches can makeup a conclution of these phenomen. sometime i doubt sreenivasan or son veeneth srenivasan seems having these muslim blood.These can be happen in kerala populations. As i observed or many pointed out that nair are also middleastern.some claim that they do have persian orgin. bascially our connection to persia or syra or to the middleastern land is evident and its not a surprise. In a way these facts are correct but if we asked too much about these all the facts are not correct. Brahimns among st thomas christians I think there are more clues for these, Many families know where there patrneal sides came from regardless of investigations. among ancient jews and arabs christians it may hard to find weather someone is arab decendents or jewish decendents. as long as fatherside keep track of their histories actually it cannot be miss it orgin, that i was confused a while ago. i think there was brahimn christians become nasranis and their were so devoted to eso as they found about iso messiah and his power from St thomas They composed many classical song and strict life being christian such as morning prayer, bath and vegetarianism but they brought some rituals. eventually when those brahimn converted families brought brides from middleastern immigrants their orginality began to change. there are middleastern group mixed among the brahmin converts as northist and middleastern immigrant marry other women like brahimn. the middleastern immigrants who did not joined northist become southist. so persians migrated to malabar also the central asians and brahimns now comes as northist and others are west asians. but what happened whichever northist familiy mingled with middleastern immgrants are patrneally brahimns but autosome testing middleastern such as features and culture compare to brahimns

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.102.59 (talk) 23:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

==User:202.88.237.74 Vandalism==Please note that the above-mentioned user has been vandalising this page without providing an clear referenced arguments. The complaints of the user seem to be that the article needs a "critical view" section to counter the ethnic Knanaya views presented here, However the user fails to provide references about the Knanaya from other perspectives and the result is possibly unintended emotional attacks and vandalism. Besides not liking the fact that the article is from a Knanaya point of view about Knanaya "southists", the user seems to think that this is an "elitist" article where Knanaya are somehow presenting themselves as "better" in some way or another over other (non-Knanaya) Nasranis ("Northists"). However the user does not make clear where such and idea appears in the text. The User also fails to understant the use of idiom in English regarding the complement about Nasranis being "living fossils" of a now lost period of Christian history as being an insult. The user is invited to try and present calmly without resorting to personal attacks the evidence and counter evidence for his/her frustrations.149.254.61.40 (talk) 14:08, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Dear user 149.254.61.40, first of all please go through the above comment of yourself and clean all the spelling mistakes. secondly, I tried to present all historical facts one by one including DNA tests done on both knas and northists. I recently noted that you puts forwards insulting remarks and removes POVs from the article without any concensus. Vatican haven't recognised archdiocese of kottayam as 'jewish christians' as stated in the 'did you know'. diocese of kottayam was formed due to the enemity arised by Mathew makkil towards Nidherikkal kathanaar when Makkil thought knas are considered as inferior castes(sons/daughters of Vellallachettikal otherwise known as Charamkettikal) and do not possess any churches.They were also not able to marry from Northists and were forcefully obliged to marry within themself which is endogamy in kna's term(LOL). Knas now declared themself as pure jewish since jews now have a country and considered superior to Arabs. If in future, lower castes in Kerala makes their own country and declares themself superior, I am sure that Knas will claim themself as lower castes(Pulayas or parayas) as they had claimed now. Also for your knowledge, RCs doesnot promotes ethnocity and due to it there is no chance of recognising a diocese for knas only. It is you who vandalises the pages by removing appropriate links and other important facts. If you dont want to edit a specific page, please do it in your sandbox and please dont insult others for simply adding references.Also bear in mind that a wiki page is not a poster and advertisement template for knas to insult others. If you are a Kna, I politely invite you to do a DNA test which is more accurate than 'blah blah'ing your jewish claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

There is no such thing as Jewish race, only Jewish religion. Knanaya preserved more elements of that earlier form of religion than any other Christian sect. It seems you have a fixation on castes. Maybe you are a Hindu not a christian. If you have evidence of another christian community with more Jewish tradition than the Knanaya please present your evidence. otherwise please stop your racist vandalism removing links etc. You are the only one causing trouble on this page for more than a year now. Your links are not scientific journals they are racist discussion pages promoting hate against the Knanaya. But why do you hate so much? What happened to you? If you are a Christian then please behave like Jesus before Pilate with gentle rational behavior.81.103.121.144 (talk) 23:43, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

@81.103.121.144,

1) "Maybe you are a Hindu not a christian".It is none of your business.see who is propogating religious agenda?!!! 2) Jewish is not only a religion but a race.for the clarification you can go through the article and read about 'L3' type of genes.they provided here without citing a reliable source. 3) Sister Abhaya is not knanaya? who killed her? the culprits are also knanaya. Since you are purely the species of jesus christ,it is not a crime?!!!who avoided the links? 4) What happened to you?--->good question. I always believe in science. I saw this article and it is without any proof or validity. So I interpreted. Also you $@#$#, please provide the details of problems I caused. Is that I added links of relevance?.removed unaudited references? Please be polite to answer my questions.dont be emotional :) like other k(un)nanayas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 11:44, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with everything you stated, 81.103.121.144. Once again, 202.88.237.74, you have fallen back to unclear statements that are difficult to decipher. Please state your arguments clearly so everyone can understand. Jews are an ethnic group not a race and Judaism is the religion. One can be of Jewish ancestry but not practice Judaism and similarly not belong to the Jewish ethnic group and practice another faith. In addition, race is a socially constructed term and changes according to the specific society, so let us avoid the use of something so loosely termed. "Like I said earlier, not every Knanaya person is Syrian Christian or even Christian in a broad sense for that matter. Furthermore, why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people? Is there a list of murder cases on the pages of other ethnic groups." Knanaya people are an ETHNICITY. Not all of them believe in Jesus. The murder case has no place in an ethnic group's page. Avalinelemar (talk) 22:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

MR/MRS Avalinelemar,

• 1) please differentiate between the race and ethnicity in your viewpoint.It is totally confusing from your statements.
• 2) how can be there a non sense term as 'Jewish christians' if jewish is not a race rather a belief?
• 3) where did I had done vandalism?(None of the fellows argued me with vandalism didnt provided any suitable answer for it :P )
• 4) what is the authority/ recorded proof of knanaya stories rather than making songs and stories from the late nineties? the reference provided in the page doesnot go to the pages they mention as the subject.only goes to some knanaya matrimony site.so I think this wikipedia page of knanaya is an index page for knanaya matrimonial sites.
• 5) I repeatedly asked you knas(charamkettikal or ash-tied ones) to provide the genetic proof rather than allegating me with vandalism. Israel allocates citizenship based on genetic tests.

There you go bi#%@, here is the proof. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq...SEk/edit?pli=1

In the page it is written that 'Ultimate derivation is from the root meaning of "possessive" later meaning "striker" due to renown as smiths among their Kenite ancestors shared with the Druze along with Haplogroup L (Y-DNA) ' . The specified 'L' type is the pre dominent genetics among dravidian troops in Srilanka and Tamil Nadu.(Shame upon the fellow who had written this, unknowingly provided data that they belongs to Srilanka/ Tamil Nadu and came via a ship along with knai thomman :). Unfortunately Israel doesnot recognise those possessing 'L type' Haplogroup as Jewish.You can see more details from the link itself that it is the most predominent one among kallars.(Famous poet Vairamuthu belongs to kallars and Now I came to know the similarities between any charamketti priest along with him).

• 6) as an old doubt can you clarify that why you people's female family members used to tie some (charam or Ash) at the end of the sari's end (konthala) like those does in vellallachetti(a sub group of kallars)'s female members(All fellows having IQ>0 knows that charam in older days used to wash cloths and their occupation was cleaning big peoples dress)? is it a jewish practice? Oh I forgot to say, they also practice endogamy. So I presume that kallars are the lost group of Israel :)
• I dare you fellows to provide sufficient answers to my questions rather than support each other(every Tom,DICK and Harry). Everybody says " oh I support that I support this.." but none is able to provide satisfactory answers regarding their own ancestry. I wish moderators to remove the articles without any valid reference or generally accepted proof like this knanaya article.

202.88.237.74 (talk) 09:24, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

1."Ethnicity refers to selected cultural and sometimes physical characteristics used to classify people into groups or categories considered to be significantly different from others

“A race is a biological subspecies click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced, or variety of a species, consisting of a more or less distinct population with anatomical traits that distinguish it clearly from other races"

http://anthro.palomar.edu/ethnicity/ethnic_1.htm

Though race and ethnicity/ethnic groups are related notions, the idea of ethnicity is rooted more in the idea of social grouping, particularly by a collective nationality, tribal affiliation, kinship and descent, religious identification, language use, or specific cultural and traditional origins, whereas race is rooted in the idea of a biological classification.

“Brace has also criticized forensic anthropologists for using the controversial concept "race" out of convention when they in fact should be talking about regional ancestry. He argues that while a forensic anthropologists can determine that a skeletal remain comes from a person with ancestors in a specific region of Africa, categorizing that skeletal as being "black" is a socially constructed category that is only meaningful in the particular context of the United States, and which is not itself scientifically valid.”

C. Loring Brace, 1995. "Region Does not Mean "Race"--Reality Versus Convention in Forensic Anthropology," Journal of Forensic Sciences 40 (#2): 29-33.

2. Jews are an ethnic group NOT a race, my friend. However being Jewish and practicing Judaism are very correlated.

“The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation.”

“Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/Jews

"The Jewish Problem: How To Solve It". Louis D. Brandeis, "Jews are a distinctive nationality of which every Jew, whatever his country, his station or shade of belief, is necessarily a member" (April 25, 1915), University of Louisville Louis D. Brandeis

School of Law, Retrieved on June 15, 2009

"A history of the Jewish nation: from the earliest times to the present day". Palmer, Edward Henry. 1875. D. Lothrop & Co.. Retrieved on June 15, 2009.

"How I Became a Zionist". "The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Vol. 7: Berlin Years". "The Jewish Nation is a living fact". June 21, 1921). Princeton University Press. Retrieved on June 15, 2009.

“The definition of who is a Jew varies according to whether it is being considered by Jews based on normative religious statutes, self-identification, or by non-Jews for other reasons. Because Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion, and citizenship, the definition of who is a Jew has varied, depending on whether a religious, sociological, or ethnic aspect was being considered”

Something interesting note, “Another example of the issues involved is the case of converts to Judaism who cease to practice Judaism (whether or not they still regard themselves as Jewish), do not accept or follow halakha, or now adhere to another religion. Technically, such a person remains Jewish, like all Jews, provided that the original conversion is valid.”

Sharot, Stephen, Judaism and Jewish Ethnicity: Changing Interrelationships and Differentiations in the Diaspora and Israel, in Ernest Krausz, Gitta Tulea, (eds.) Jewish survival: the identity problem at the close of the twentieth century, pp.87-104

Will Herberg, David G. Dalin, From Marxism to Judaism: the collected essays of Will Herberg, p.240

Someone can be belonging to the Jewish ethnic group but practice Christianity.

“Jewish Christians, also called Hebrew Christians, Christian Jews or Judaizers, were Early Christians who maintained Jewish religious practices, from the period of the inception of Christianity until approximately the fifth century”. Learn more at Jewish Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Jewish_Christian.

Joan Taylor, Christians and the holy places: the myth of Jewish-Christian origins, Oxford University Press, 1993 p. 18

3. I haven’t seen any vandalism.

4. I am not sure what you mean by wedding songs. I do agree that this page needs a major cleanup. Everyone needs to discuss changes before making edits.

5. I don’t know why you stated “you knas(charamkettikal or ash-tied ones) to provide the genetic proof rather than allegating me with vandalism”. Like you and Avaline, I am not Knanaya and you shouldn’t assume that everyone here is Knanaya. I am unable to provide genetic proof.

However, my friend, Israel does NOT grant citizenship based on genetic tests. You don't need any 'Jewish' genetic proof to become an Israeli citizen via the Law of Return, because Judaism is not a race. If you convert to Judaism you can become an Israeli citizen via the Law of Return. It doesn't matter what ethnic background you come from. Furthermore family members (spouses, children) are able to obtain Israeli citizenship. Though I don't see what this has to do with Knanaya.

I agree with you. Whoever wrote that DNA summary is writing nonsense. But like I said earlier, Israel does not care about genetic proof.

I have no idea what a “kallar”, “Vairamuthu”, or “charamketti” is.

Since ethnicity is “a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy”, it can be argued that Knanaya people meet these requirements and hence an ethnic group.

Hobsbawm and Ranger (1983), The Invention of Tradition, Sider 1993 Lumbee Indian Histories

Seidner,(1982), Ethnicity, Language, and Power from a Psycholinguistic Perspective, pp. 2-3

Smith 1987 pp.21-22

Whether they are or are not Jewish. What Jewish is really hard to measure and DNA is not going to prove it. As stated earlier, “Another example of the issues involved is the case of converts to Judaism who cease to practice Judaism (whether or not they still regard themselves as Jewish), do not accept or follow halakha, or now adhere to another religion. Technically, such a person remains Jewish, like all Jews, provided that the original conversion is valid.” The Knanaya people can fail every single DNA test but use this argument.

6. While I do not understand the majority of what you stated, 202.88.237.74, I know that illogical statements, “female members(All fellows having IQ>0”, will not lead to people considering your argument seriously.

The Knanaya people reminds me of both Crypto-Judaism and Anusim.

The Bnei Menashe are a group of more than 9,000 people from India's North-Eastern border states of Manipur and Mizoram who claim descent from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel. The claim appeared after a Pentecostalist dreamt in 1951 that his people's pre-Christian religion was Judaism and that their original homeland was Israel.

The Israeli government announces that the remaining 7,200 can make Aliyah within a 1-2 year period after undergoing a conversion.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3831308,00.html

Hope I helped clear up,

- A friend from Poland

77.65.4.231 (talk) 22:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear friend from Poland,

Please refer the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) type of genetic markers which was developed by israeli scientists to determine jewish identity. If knas had undergone endogamy for 2000 years and of pure jewish origin(as claimed), then their genetic pool may not be disturbed with any other genes and should contain CMH. But none of them (until now ) had tested positive for CMH and also their genetics contains only locally obtainable L Haplogroup. These facts proof that the stories of endogamy is 100% False which makes this article to be deleted immediately.
Apart from that, Misplaced Pages should say Sorry to World on publishing the false claim of 'Vatican recognised knas as jewish christians' :) In the front page itself.
202.88.237.74 (talk) 09:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Did you even read anything stated? DNA evidence does not equate to the Jewish identity!

Where are you pulling these claims from? Your hatred for this community unfortunately cannot be used as evidence.

- A friend from Poland

77.65.4.231 (talk) 15:06, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear A friend from Poland,
I read everything you had written. Who said DNA evidence doesnot equate jewish identity? This is not the case of hatred. This is all about bluffing whole readers of wikipedia. I stated here the need for scientific authenticity (In your terms it is not needed,only an illegal reference is needed?!!!see the knanaya in israel link :) To understand the genetics first search for Cohen Modal Haplotype in wikipedia itself and read thoroughly. kindly note that I dont mix any emotions with truth.

- A friend from India

202.88.237.74 (talk) 06:03, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew Transliteration

What transliteration do you think would be appropriate? Knanaya is חנניה in Hebrew. While קנאי which was used previously reads Kanahi. Avalinelemar (talk) 23:11, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

this chapter in wikepedia is total rubbish

i think before allowing this topic the wikepedia should have checked the authenticity.there is nothing like knanaya penthacost and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.77.96.136 (talk) 16:24, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Passover

Knanaya continue to celebrate Passover very privately without inviting any Christian friend to share the Holy Meal, in accordance with Exodus 12:45.

more than half of thekubagam do not celibate pesaha actually its a Syrian catholic custom any way fun to read this fantasy:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.37.184 (talk) 23:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

actually i am knanaya and all of my family on both sides including very distant relatives that i know of celebrate that. It is a custom introduced by knanaya but taken by locals — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.237.160 (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Plz do not remove POV with out consensus: Kottayam and Chingavanam dioces propaganda

As seen in the archive discussion, Misplaced Pages is not the place to paste, the extremely volatile fictional content from some story tellers of Kottayam and Chingavanam diocese.Please request the vandalisers to refrain from vandalism and do not remove the POV.

I have again added POV for all the sections as the information in each section is propaganda material with wrong citation. Also added the clean up tag. Please do not remove them again. There are a bunch of propagandist working on putting back propaganda material in this page for several years now. In that case i will go ahead and request the intervention of an administrator.

EasoPothen (talk) 06:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

An early example of faking

I posted the following comment earlier. Each sectional POV's are required since the article is corrupted with propaganda. It has also used the name of some book authors for manipulation.

This is the opening sentence of this article: Thekkumbagar/Knanaya or more accurately Q'nanaya, (Heb:קנאים, Malayalam: ക്നാനായ, Syriac:ܛܢܢܐ, Ar:قينان) from Kerala, India, are a Jewish Christian people of early endogamous Kenite descent.

The references given are Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. All of these are fake references. Some one pasted their propaganda and for authenticity faked the sources as Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. In fact there are many scholars who have written about Southists but none of them are cited either correctly or wrongly.EasoPothen (talk) 06:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Talk on consensus

I propose the opening statement as follows:

"Tekkumbhagar or Thekkumbagar or Southists ( also known with recently concatenated name Knanaya) are a group of Christians in South India who follow endogamy. Since 1910 and 1911, they form separate dioceses in Jacobite Syrian Christian Church and Syro Malabar Church. Some of them also has joined Protestant and Pentecostal churches in recent years"

I also propose the following sections for the article:

1. Early History 2. Split of the Community 3. Syro Malabar Church Southists 4. Syriac Orthodox Southists 5. Special Customs 6. Controversies

The content of each of these sections can be discussed by editors with valid citation and reference.68.145.213.14 (talk) 06:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Parochial and partisan view

I'm not concerned as far as you fabricate your own communities history, but please don't try to manipulate entire Syrian Christian history to satisfy your vicious egos. Please don't come across the Nazarani Traditions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.248.72.195 (talk) 08:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Black Jews

There is more evidence that the Knanayas are Black/Yemeni Jews. I think this article should state mythical history and actual history. TheReclaimist (talk) 17:26, 01 October 2011 (UTC) Dear TheReclaimist,

I would like to know more details on the evidences put forward. But I have a history (may be a story) which got from the orthodox syrian father during my surprise visit to thiruvithamcode arapally.They are summurized as below.

1) During his missionary travel to India, St.Thomas converted some jews and natives. He preached on ports from palayoor to madras. He was believed to preach in hebrew, where only traders comprising high profile peoples and jews were only know that language.

2) During his visit to Madras(said by father as thoothukudi) one group of people, know as vellallachettikal, who was converted to jewism by jewish missionaries before the arrival of St.Thomas was also converted to christianity. (We had to admit their jewish claims). Vellallachettikal are also now known as Vellalla gauders, who was recently in the news for including them by state govt of Kerala in Scheduled Tribe category. Since Vellallachettikal was very orthodox in nature, they attacked new converts to christianity. They fled from Madras(Say the port presently in Tamilnadu (unknown port), during the reign of mammallan) and was admitted at Thiruvithamcode and settled there by St.Thomas.

3) After 3 centuries, due to some unknown reason, most probably war(it was not disclosed by father) they were left to a port in kerala (some say kollam, others kodungallor) in sailing boats, not via land(because there were enemies in land?!!!). When they landed in kerala, they were not allowed to enter Syrian churches.(Remember recently also Mar Mathew Makkil, who was a southist was not allowed to sit before Bishops of changanassery). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.93.111.243 (talk) 12:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Other myth of knanaya are the people from GOA. Who are in nasranis are syrian christians who are syrians by mother side or father side which are mixed with converts and Goa portughese people knew what to do to see syrian christians and Portughese started to marry more syrian featured people or look like muslim like people or arabic features and what happened these goans people basically collected and they created a community.once they hijacked and emerged to become claim like we are pure syrians other one is there were higher class brahimns and nairs invited to go to a marriage and few members of each families decided to go for the marriage. once they attented the marriage everybody being a group and stated to go back to their home. once they reached the home, elders in those people did not let them inside because they suspect all these people ate meat. and they got seperated and end up merged with christian community and those people only marry to their own group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.187.166.108 (talk) 04:19, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Knanaya Traditoins

Passover- Knanaya Catholics truthfully do celebrate passover or "Pesaha", on the night of passover the head of the house the (father or grandfather) remove dried palm leafs (that were in the shape of the cross) from the Pesaha Appam and cut the Pesaha Appam while saying prayers. Soon after the Pesaha Appam is mixed with the Pesaha Syrup and is split between the family.

Endogamy- Today amoung the Knanaya Catholics you can find many individuals or even families that have traits of white skin as in (Caucasian)and auburn hair. Have Knanayas always been endogamous? Who knows but at least we know for a fact that they have for a good 50-100 years.

Marriage- A Knanaite who marries outside his or her community (not necessarily outside his or her Church) is no longer considered to be of the community. If the spouse-to-be is a Knanaite of the other Knanaite Church (either Syriac Jacobite or Syro-Malabar Catholic) that is acceptable. (knowledge all first hand experience , visit to a Knanaya Catholic Church in Houston Texas) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.89.62.248 (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

When did the above customs started? Like the battleship galactica happened by having 72 families from israel landed at cranganore or quilon or after the 'Thekkumbhagasamudhayam' published?!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.114.8 (talk) 09:14, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

File:Eliza Joseph - Sadakan.ogg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Eliza Joseph - Sadakan.ogg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Misplaced Pages files with no non-free use rationale as of 3 December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Margan David

Magan David or the Star of David has been in use as a symbol of Judaism since the 17th century. It was not a symbol of the Jews in AD 345. So it was impossible for the Knanaya people to sail by a ship under this flag in AD 345. The file Star of David, in this article should be removed and the article needs to be corrected.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:34, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Magen David an anachronism

Magen David (Shield of David) is the symbol most commonly used by Judaism today, though this came to popular practice only in the seventeenth century. For more details, see articles related to Star of David or Magen David. There is no chance for Knanaya people to sail under this flag in AD 345 (fourth century) under the leadersip of Knai Thomman. So, this symbol and related explanations are removed from this article.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

You are 100% about that statement. The Magen David was not used until the 17th century. However, the Knanaya mythology states that they did use the symbol. Mythologies are not true. The inaccuracies within the Knanaya migration myth is explained afterward. I used the image to represent the Knanaya oral legends. While it may not be true, it provides an insight to what the people believe. TheReclaimist (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

File:Abhay.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Abhay.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Misplaced Pages (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Abhay.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 00:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

A Remphasis on Neutrality

I would like to put a remphasis on neutrality when it comes to additions and subtractions to this page in specific. One can see several examples of individual opinions and hate mongering with in the talk pages and the the actual wiki page itself. I would like to remind everyone that we are attempting to further academic knowledge here. This is not a platform for people spew their opinions and for individuals to go on rants. This goes for inividuals on both sides of the issue. I understand that it is difficult to find clear and non-diluted facts and historical references for such an obscure topic, but that doesn't mean that it gives individuals an oppertunity to destroy the credibilty of the wiki page. To say that an entire ethnic group history is completly fabricated and thefore invalid is an very extreme proposition. A majority of the arguements for deletion of this page and aswell as addtions/subtractions of this page have been founded on unsound facts and clearly biased opinions. I also agree on the flip side of the arguement that several facts and references about the exact history of the Knanaya people do not use strong sources. This is because of the lack of sources that other topics have the luxury of having. This means that the process of finding credible sources becomes harder, but is not an excuse for individuals to put in their own fabricated facts and biased opinions. This wiki article in no way means needs to be deleted but rather an needs a very thorough examination and evalution of that facts and sources that the article uses.

Kurianjimmy11 (talk) 21:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Template: Top Lie Class articles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.114.8 (talk) 09:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Good I guess Mr.Kurianjimmy1 is not an individual rather a department in himself :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.116.225 (talk) 11:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite

This article needs a total rewrite. It currently states the claims of Jewish origin as if it were a fact, when this is only one of many variant (and often spurious) claims that exist. The current state is not acceptable.--Cúchullain /c 13:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I've made a start toward cleaning up the article, adding necessary citations and replacing uncited or inadequately cited material.--Cúchullain /c 20:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

In response to the anonymous editor who reverted my changes without comment, what exactly is the problem? All the material I added was cited to reliable sources, which is more than can be said about what it replaced.Cúchullain /c 22:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I have not read in depth the cited content yet but, hey, if it is sourced then it simply must be better than the unsourced stuff that preceded it. Yes, there might be a few quibbles around the edges but the only valid reason to revert the article would be if all of the sources were fake references. And I can tell you this much: they are not. My knowledge of this subject area is somewhat less than that of Cuchullain but I am learning rapidly that the entire "Jews in India" issue has been massively skewed across numerous articles. It is time that the POV, the misrepresentation and the outright calumnies are fixed, just as I have been doing more generally across hundreds of India caste/community articles. Feel free to discuss, obviously, but please also note that I will revert on sight any unexplained removals of cited content. - Sitush (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

First of all, what you wrote is very poorly written. Example, "The first known writte=n evidence for a division in the Saint Thomas Christian community dates to the 16th century, when Portuguese colonial officials took notice of it." Please at least use spell check first. Furthermore, this entire article relies on one source, Swiderski. The simmilarities between Cochin Jews and Knanaya noted by Weil have been removed among other sources. It's misleading to state that Malayalam is the spoken language by the majority when the majority live outside of India. To group all Knanaya as Christians (Even that is incorrect, no mention of Knanaya Greek Orthodox? Knanaya Jehovah's Witness? Knanaya Pentacostal?) is also misleading. Im ata Yehudi, ata yodea ma omerti. Ani lo ohev et antisemitic beze. Knanaya anashim mevean ivrit, arabit veanglit. Atsuv meod. The Christian bias in this article is too much. - Southernseals90 (talk) 13:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I've corrected Sitush's minor spelling error. It's telling that you try to portray one very minor spelling error as somehow worse than what appeared in the article before, considering its previous deplorable state. Additionally, focusing on (potential) errors in the infobox is not going to make your case that the previous, poorly cited version was somehow preferable. The several sources I added are all reliable; we are of course open to disussing how to include other sources so long as they too are actually reliable. However, personal comments, edit wars, and tendentious editing will not be tolerated.Cúchullain /c 20:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I am on record as being in need of a new keyboard, and indeed I have a Dell 1545 k/b on order. Sorry for the typo but, hey, spellchecks do not work across the many variants of English. "Simmilarities" - is that correct in any English variant? <g> - Sitush (talk) 01:31, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Too general to say that Knanaya Catholics are apart of the Syro-Malabar Church

It is too general to say that Knanaya Catholics are apart of the Syro-Malabar Church. While in many places outside of India, for example in the US. Knanaya Catholic churches fall under the jurisdiction of Bishop Mar Jacob Agnadiath of Syro-Malabar Church for administrative purposes, in India Knanaya Catholics fall under the jurisdiction of the Diocese of Kottayam. A distinct diocese from the Syro-Malabar diocese in India. As their distinct identity and practices were acknowledged by the Vatican under Pope Pius X, by establishing in 1911 a separate vicariate apostolic under the Syro Malabar Church for the Knanaya Jewish Christians, named the Knanaya Catholic Vicariate Apostolic of Kottayam. It was elevated to an eparchy by Pope Pius X in his Bull “Universi Christiani” in 1923 and to an metropolitan archeparchy in 2005. While they practices the same Eastern rite as the Syro-Malabar church, the dioceses are distinctly different. I feel this generality arises due to modern day interchangeability between the word "church" and "diocese" and I believe the edit I made address the union of the Knanaya Catholics and Syro-Malabar Catholics with loosing key piece of differentiating information of unique identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurianjimmy11 (talk • contribs) 18:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Is the eparchy not under the jurisdiction of the Major Archbishop of the Syro-Malabar Church? Either way we need to make the distinction clear using reliable sources.--Cúchullain /c 19:27, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Citation issues

Does anyone have an objection to converting the current citation style? I rather use {{sfn}} here because it "bounces" the linkage, ie: from the to the "Neill (2000), p. 52." and then through to the bibliographic entry. Basically, it improves clarity and reduces the possibility of errors creeping in.

Also, can someone please explain which source is Swiderski 1998a and which is 1988b. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 11:12, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

No objection from me on converting the sources. Swiderski 1988a is "Northists and Southists: A Folklore of Kerala Christians"; Swiderski 1988b is Blood Weddings: The Knanaya Christians of Kerala.Cúchullain /c 12:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Montages

Photo Montages are no logner allowed for ethnic groups? Sorry, this is new to me. The majority of ethnic group pages seem to have them - Malayalis, Tibetans, Tamils, Kurds, Greeks, etc. Greeknaite (talk) 9:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

You have slightly misunderstood. Please see User:Sitush/Common#Montages. - Sitush (talk) 13:42, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I apologize, English is not my first language. But, I am still not understanding. Can you calrify? Greeknaite (talk) 17:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

No problem, although I doubt that I can make it any simpler, sorry.

Indian ethnic articles are quite a messy and contentious area here. Their problematic nature has caused them to be placed under sanctions. While such sanctions are not unique to this group of articles, they do reflect that they are something of a "special case". As things stand, there is a consensus among people who have expressed interest in India-related matters that montages/groups of photos of people in India-related community articles are far more trouble than they are worth and frequently lead to policy breaches etc. The fact that this is not problematic in other areas (as per your examples) is just one of those things.

It is possible that this consensus needs ratification by the wider Misplaced Pages community and for that reason there is a request for comment in place, as noted on my explanatory page linked above. You are welcome to participate in that discussion but, for now at least, the consensus is that montages should not be present. - Sitush (talk) 13:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Recent edits

The recent reverts by anonymous editors today are re-inserting some spelling errors and inferior wording, as well as the photo montage which has been removed per discussion above. Revert warring is not appropriate. Please engage in discussion here on the talk page.Cúchullain /c 15:45, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Fake references

As I have suspected after reading some parts of the article, many references are simply forged by the author/s. Here are some that can only be traced to other wikipedia articles and their mirrors:

1. Jessay, P.M. (1986) "The Wedding Songs of the Cochin Jews and of the Knanite Christians of Kerala: A Study in Comparison." Symposium.
2. Koder, S. (1973) "History of the Jews of Kerala".The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India,Ed. G. Menachery.
3. Puthiakunnel, Thomas. (1973) "Jewish colonies of India paved the way for St. Thomas", The Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India, ed. George Menachery, Vol. II., Trichur.
4. Weil, S. (1982) "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cananite Christians and Cochin Jews in Kerala. in Contributions to Indian Sociology, 16.

Furthermore, reference #18 "Weil,S. 1982; Jessay, P.M. 1986; Menachery G; 1973, 1998; Thomas Puthiakunnel 1973; Vellian Jacob 2001; Koder S. 1973; Vellian, J 1988" is not appropriate. References should contain at least the ISBN and the page number. If no one objects I will remove those references and the passages supposed to be supported by them.--Rafy talk 01:40, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Given the current poor state of those sections, and of various related articles, I support removing anything that can't be reasonably verified. However, I can confirm that the Shalva Weil source is real: However, I do not have access to it, and unfortunately this work has been misused on Misplaced Pages (for example see here.) George Menachery's Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia does exist and has been cited in academic works, but it is evidently a self-published work by Menachery, which limits its usefulness here. A lot of the problematic material regarding the Saint Thomas Christians on Misplaced Pages appears to originate with nasrani.net. It's really too bad.Cúchullain /c 03:00, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

1. appears possibly to be an unpublished paper from a symposium - see the note here
2. definitely exists and is referred to in, for example, this
3. also exists, eg: this
4. exists as a part of Thomas H. Timberg (Ed.), Jews in India (New York- London: Advent Books, 1986), pp. 177-204 and the journal version is cited by numerous other academics, eg: here

Given this, I presume that by "fake" you meant that the references do not support the statements. This happens, of course, but to make the statement you must have access to the sources.

The bundled citation that you object to is most certainly not how I would do things, but your rationale for removal is inappropriate - just fix the citation using the info in the more complete cites found elsehwere in the article and (probably) with some attention to WP:CITEKILL. - Sitush (talk) 03:22, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Where there's no page number in an obscure work, verification is difficult. I too suspect that a lot of the information has been obscured or exaggerated from the sources.Cúchullain /c 03:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, so do I. But the more good faith approach would be to insert {{Pn}} tags etc for a while. My main point here, however, is that to make such a bold statement Rafy must have read these obscure sources. Removing something just because it may be difficult to verify the source is not usually a valid action. As you know, I would be happy to see all Menachery and nasrani.net references removed from all articles relating to these groups (except where they support statements about Menachery or nasrani.net) but I am not sure that we have consensus to do so either locally or at WP:RSN. - Sitush (talk) 03:52, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I think there are enough reasons to assume bad faith here. One article that have been recently deleted also use fake references for a Knanya-Greek beauty queen. There are attempts by some wikipedians to emphasise the "Jewishness" of some Christian leaders of the Knanya community by adding funny looking Hebrew names to them such as here and here. I read above as well that others have complained about reference abuse.

The references provided by Sitush concern the Cochin Jewry which may or may not be related to the Knanyas. Anyway, there are tons of reliable and easily verifiable informations about st. Thomas Christians, so I don't understand why do we have to rely on dubious references that are almost impossible to verify.--Rafy talk 14:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Eh? I have provided no references, merely links that show the refs that you mentioned are not "fake" in the sense of being non-existent. Now, have you read those sources or not? - Sitush (talk) 14:43, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

BTTW, I may have tracked Jessay down to a printed document. In Kollaparambil, Jacob (1992), "The Babylonian origin of the Southists among the St. Thomas Christians", Orientalia Christiana analecta, Pontificium Institutum Orientalium Studiorum, 241, Pont. Institutum Studiorum Orientalium, ISBN 9788872102893 there is a footnote referring to it as "J. Vellian, Symposium, part II, no.3. 67". We need to hit WP:RX, I think. - Sitush (talk) 14:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

A bundle of references (Weil,S. 1982; Jessay, P.M. 1986; Menachery G; 1973, 1998; Thomas Puthiakunnel 1973; Vellian Jacob 2001; Koder S. 1973; Vellian, J 1988) is used to show that certain traditions are directly descendant from Judaism. Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that the Holy Qurbana is related to the Syriac term for Eucharest, betrothal prior to marriage is very common in Orthodox Christianity,, marriage under a canopy is taken from Hindu traditions,, ceremonial bathing is a Syrian Christian tradition, and burials facing east is common in Christianity?

After all the Knanyas have been Christian for more than 15 centuries while the controversial Jewish period shouldn't have lasted more than 2-3 centuries at most. Extraordinary claims require clear references so I will remove the paragraph in question if no better sources are provided.--Rafy talk 21:20, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I would not object to removing that paragraph on the grounds that it's dubious material attributed to an incomplete citation that is very unlikely ever to be completed. However, from what I can deduce it does sound like something that would appear in the Weill work at least. Other material cited to those incomplete citations is not controversial, such as the dates Knanaya dioceses were created in the Orthodox and Catholic churches.--Cúchullain /c 12:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Merchant ship figure

The figure "A colonial era Knanaya merchant ship" looks suspiciously like a 74 or 80 gun double decked ship of the line. Could you please give a reference for this figure, please? The navies of the Keralite kingdoms had access only to smaller ships and if the Knanaya merchants had such powerful ships, then they could have become the second Kunjalis in Kerala history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.225.151 (talk) 07:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it looks pretty dubious. They probably should be removed.--Cúchullain /c 12:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Even the paint pattern is that of British ships of the line. Admittedly the East Indiamen of the British East India Company used similar paint patterns, but I doubt any of those, possibly the biggest western-style merchantmen in those waters, boasted two gundecks. I've removed the image. While we're at it, I have similar doubts about the other ship image, "A West Asian or Greek styled Knanaya ship sailing from Kodungallur" - that looks suspiciously like an ancient warship (maybe a liburna), not a merchantman. Two rows of oars and the prow made for ramming are clearly visible. I seriously doubt such ships were used by the Knanaya. Huon (talk) 22:18, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Traditions and customs Section

Please do not delete this section, I am a Knanaya Catholic and i added it myself. All of you non-Knanayas may have problems with our history and our practice of endogamy but please we truly practice these traditions and customs listed just go to any Knanaya Wedding or other event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 04:15, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Misplaced Pages can't accept original research such as this. All material needs to be verifiable through reliable sources. If you have such sources, we can discuss how to add the material.--Cúchullain /c 12:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes I have reliable resources, from the official Knanaya Congress of the Middle East Website, The official site of a Knanaya Church and the official website of The Knanaya Kottayam Archdiocese. I would like you to take note that the Knanaya history written by many random users on here is completely different from that written on the official website of the Knanaya Kottayam Archdiocese and also that of the official website of the Knanaya Catholic Congress of North America.

Sources-

• http://www.kccme.com/history.html
• http://portal.stjosephsknanayachurch.com/stjosephs/KnanayaTraditions/KnanayaCustoms.aspx
• http://www.kottayamad.org/history.htm
• http://www.kccna.com/node.php?id=2

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

While that's not itself an endorsement of the current article text, the official website of an organization is not a reliable source on that organization's history - at least not if those claims might be controversial. After all, the official website almost by definition has a bias. Huon (talk) 01:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

So let me get this straight, random users on Misplaced Pages have a more accurate idea of Knanaya History than Kottayam Knanaya Catholic Archdiocese and Chingavnam Knanaya Jacobite Archdiocese? These users have a more accurate say, than a diocese created by His Holiness Pope St.Pius X and a diocese created by the Holy Syriac Orthodox Church? From this wiki talk page that is what it seems like. If such great organizations such as the Catholic Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church accept the Knanaya history of the diocese' it should supersede that of people who think they know the history of Knanaya Christians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.34.235.47 (talk) 01:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

That's not what I said. But our current "history" and various "traditions" sections are based on scholarly publications, partly articles in peer-reviewed journals, partly books from reputable publishers. Those sources have a more accurate idea of Kanaya history that the archdioceses. And while I don't know all that much about the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church is hardly known for fact-checking and accuracy. Huon (talk) 07:36, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

First off, you're being far to dismissive. The churches, Catholic or Syriac Orthodox, can be reliable, depending on the use, particularly for their own opinions. In a case like this, church publications could be useful sources for the local customs of their own members. However, academic sources are superior if they cover the same thing (and we already have several), and of course we can't accept any original research. So far as I can tell the links above don't have much detail and don't corroborate most of what was in that edit.Cúchullain /c 12:44, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Indeed churches can be reliable sources for their own opinion and for their own beliefs. But the sources given above talk about historical events in 345 AD - on that they are not reliable sources. Furthermore, two of those websites are US-based, a third based in Qatar. For all I can tell, they are not the official websites of the archdioceses. The fourth apparently is indeed the official website of the Roman Catholic organization responsible for the Knanaya, but firstly, Pius X didn't create a diocese but an Apostolic Vicariate, so apparently 99.34.235.47 didn't even reproduce the modern history correctly; secondly, it doesn't discuss Knanaya customs anyway. The text we had was actually based on the "Europe Region of the Knanaya Archdiocese", where "based" means it's a copyright violation. At the very best that's a self-published source that should be used with caution. At worst it's stuff somebody made up and posted on the web. I'm not sure I could tell the difference. Huon (talk) 14:52, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The sources: http://www.kottayamad.org/history.htm http://www.kccna.com/node.php?id=2 http://www.kccme.com/history.html

In my opinion all are well verified, KCCNA is the Knanaya Catholic Congress of the North America, which every Knanaya Catholic in the U.S is a member of and which all of our churches belong too. We no longer pledge allegiance to the Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago because they no longer honor our traditions and customs. KCCME is the same as KCCNA except that of the middle east. Kottayamad is our the official website of our archdiocese. I gave you the two sources KCCNA and Kottyamad that links to our correct history and not provided by Knanaya hating Northists. I gave you the other two links to give a list of our traditions and customs. I do not see any other way i can show that the customs and traditions are true. But I would think you could believe an actual Knanaya Catholic. There is a video on youtube that shows all these customs being explained by our previous bishop His Holiness Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry but it is in Malayalam so I do not know if you can understand. This video was brought to us by our Monsignor Vicar General Fr. Velliyan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEN1UW86xdI — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 00:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Mr Tthom48, Even aboriginals in kerala have their own customs like you.But seeing the face of the Rev.Fathers of your Archdiocese of Kottayam, you fellows are stil claiming for the jewish lineage?!!!!Poor felows...(Appeal to any southist especially in Chicago, Kindly dont delete my comment) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.221.149.7 (talk) 10:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Please explain how that is supposed to aid in improving the article. Huon (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

It is very important huon, since the whole article is fabricated.Some fellows from a lower caste who was undergoing endogomy converted to christian faith and fabricated a new story as 'Knanaya' to make superior themself from other sections in community. It was believed by many people until their genetic results were out recently.Tell me huon, doesn't it make aid in deleting the article itself?!!!!

117.207.160.163 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:49, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, even if their ideological foundation were made up, the Knanaya would probably still be a notable group. They would hardly be the first to invent some sort of mythical history to feel superior - would you hold the Aeneis against our article on Rome? And much of the article's content relies not on what happened in the first millennium AD, but on the present, supported by reliable, independent sources. Do you have any reliable sources supporting your claims about the Knanaya's origin? Huon (talk) 17:33, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Huon, How knanaya would probably a notable group? is it because one fellow known as Thomas chazhikadan wrote a book known as "Thekkumbhagasamudhayam" and translated into english as "The syrian colonisation of kerala" ?or through it he claimed himself and his community superior to other christians in kerala by pseudo endogamy? everytime if we provides some valid proof (such as genetic reports) somebody (whose ip addresses had been traced to chicago and kottayam) repeatedly reverts the edits of the talk pages.ok,huon, will you please provide a significant landmark,ie reference of knanaya(southist) claim, example: copper plate provided by cheraman perumal. I can provide you the genetic results of knanaya people having the facts that they belongs to the same category of Ezhavas or Vellalagowders with paternal lineage. The problem is that when I am submitting somebody just reverts the url. 117.204.115.29 (talk)

They're notable because there are many independent, reliable sources about them. The credibility or otherwise of their origin tradition is irrelevant to their notability.Cúchullain /c 13:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

May I have atleast a reliable source you said?!!!117.207.162.212 (talk) 11:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

There are a number of reliable sources already used in the article.Cúchullain /c 13:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

So the majority is Unreliable? you just admitted that :)

117.204.116.225 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:33, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Population

I believe the population listed is wrong. It says in the summary there are 50,000 Knanayas in India and elsewhere, while in the small table it says c.200,000? Why does it say that? Here is a link for the total number of Knanaya Catholics from a survey taken by the Syro Malabar Church (View Kottayam Diocese). I am not sure how many Knanaya Jacobites there are.

http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/syro-malabar-church-at-a-glance.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 18:55, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Erwin Fahlbusch's Encyclopedia of Christianity says there are about 300,000 Knanayas. I'll change the article accordingly and add the source. Huon (talk) 21:32, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Customs

Please do not delete the newly added marriage/funeral/other customs section. This information is straight from the Knanaya Kottayam Archdiocese official website. http://kottayamad.org/knanaya-tradition/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 05:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the material had to be removed. Misplaced Pages requires material to be verifiable by reliable sources. The archdiocese website won't be enough for all that material.Cúchullain /c 13:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Besides, Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary, and much of that was just dictionary definitions without context or interpretation. Huon (talk) 14:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi may these customs the Archdiocese has mentioned be entered into the document? It seems it has been updated. Please note these are from the official website of the Knanaya Catholic Archdiocese of Kottayam. http://kottayamad.org/knanaya-tradition/

Misplaced Pages content should be based on the coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. I don't think the Archdiocese website is subject to editorial oversight, and while it may serve as a source for the Archdiocese's own opinions, for such customs I'd say we should better rely on scholarly textbooks on religion, sociology or anthropology than on the website of a religious group. Huon (talk) 01:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Knanaya History

Can the history not be taken from this scholarly article from The Pontifical Institute of Alwaye? This is a greatly sited source. http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:SGTgISp-YuEJ:scholar.google.com/+knanaya&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.95.63 (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits March 2013

I've reverted a number of undiscussed changes largely made by PalakkappillyAchayan. The edits excised a lot of well-cited material, and altered other material in ways that were directly contradicted in the sources. Most notably, Frykenberg, Baum & Winkler, and Swiderski do not say that the Knanaya trace their decent to Thomas of Cana and an "Indian concubine"; these sources specifically say they trace their decent to Thomas of Cana and his Syrian immigrants.--Cúchullain /c 17:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

So called Fake references

Just wanted to point out that at least one of the so called fake references does exist (Weil 1982: Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: the Cnanite Christians and the Cochin Jews of Kerala): http://cis.sagepub.com/content/16/2/175.citation — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.4.44 (talk) 01:27, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we already cleared up that it's real. However, we couldn't verify that the article text was citing it accurately; that work has been misused at other Misplaced Pages articles before.--Cúchullain /c 01:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Chaaram Kettykal

Knanaya Christians are also called Chaaram Kettykal (Require citation). There are ample evidences for this. Therefore it must be added to the lead section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.114.172 (talk) 13:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

New Edits

Recently, user Cuchullain, reverted on mass many changes I had made, after I tried to make the article more reasonable. After a brief discussion he has been kind enough to reinstate some of the changes I had made (though with different wording). I thank him for that, though honestly, I would have *much* rather he just removed whatever was objectionable- and provided his reasoning. The version I put was I believe more detailed and informative.

I have, since his changes, made some minor edits to the article which I believe may merit explanation, and I would like to discuss the introduction of few other points.

Minor Changes (already made):

1. I removed the fact Swiderski thought that some theories regarding the origin of the name Knanaya isn't persuasive. What one particular scholar thinks (as far as I can tell by contemplating his navel) isn't relevant. This is part of my wider concern that the guess work and speculations of western anthropologists are at times given way to much authority. What ought to matter for an encyclopedia are the facts.

2. This is related to point 1. Joseph Chazhikaden in his history of the Southists claims they are Jewish in origin. Swiderski in his tone is dismissive of Chazhikaden. He says "Chazhikaden conceived and promulgated a bold Southist legend." Misplaced Pages took Swiderski interpretation/guess work one step further by stating that Chazhikaden introduced and popularised a theory.

This implies Chazhikaden created a theory which has now become popular. It completely denies the possibility that what Chazhikaden wrote was already in the oral tradition. I am not here going to prove this is the case (I have more reading to do- I have however read credible sources suggesting that there is more to this theory). This is really significant because Chazhikaden is one of the earliest sources written by Knanaya person, as opposed accounts by the Portuguese, or Northists, or western anthropologists who visited the area for a few months or couple of years etc.

I have therefore made a minor change to say he claimed the Knanaya are Jewish Chritians. Further Chazhikaden was an important figure in the community- in Swiderski it is noted:

"Chazhikaden was a representative of the strongly Southist area of Uzhavoor in the Diwan of Travancore and after the formation of Kerala in 1956 in the Kerala State legislature. He was a noted wit whose sallies were widely reported in newspapers and are still alive in oral tradition."

The source I'm citing is this: https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/1457

Further Important Changes (Not made yet):

1. There are some important changes to be made, but the most important is the following.

In this article there are two important kinds of information: One is historical fact and the other is tradition/legend.

A lot of the article is tradition/legend. There is no shred of solid proof that there was a person called Thomas of Cana, or he led some migrants, and that they were Christians, etc. The earliest sources used (Portuguese material) date from up to a 1000 years after he supposedly existed and the migration took place. However this is very likely oral tradition written down and preserved though probably distorted, and is therefore however important and there is some significant circumstantial support for it (the legend is found in variety of sources, Christian and Hindu).

However, it is relevant to know how the Knanaya of today define themselves, and what they believe to be their origins. It is a key element of their lives and their identity.

The current tradition (I don't know what previously the Knanaya people claimed they were- there is no source information for that) is that they are descendants of Jewish Christians. That is how they identify themselves. I don't know whether or not this is a new tradition or an old tradition, there is no evidence either way. What we do know is that the earliest extant sources (which as far as I can tell date only to around Chazhikaden) written by Knanaya people themselves states they are Jewish Christians. (Older Northist Sources do mention Thomas of Cana came from Jerusalam, and the migrants were from related areas).

This is why I believe it is important to have this in the article, given this is what Knanaya institutions and publications claim (and what many Knanaya people believe).

The citations I give are very reliable evidence for what these institutions believe in, though not on what the actual history was (virtually all source material cited, academic and not, in this article are dubious as to the actual history).

Hence I believe the following paragraph should be in the article (if not in the introduction):

Knanaya churches, including the Catholic Archeparchy of Kottayam, and Knanaya organisations in their publications subscribe to the belief that the Knanaya people are descendents of Jewish-Christian migrants who migrated under the leadership of Thomas of Cana, unlike the Northists who are the descendents of the converts by St Thomas.

2. Further there is evidence (if Western anthropologists can be believed) that there are similarities between Knanaya customs and Cochin Jews hence this should be inserted as well, particularly since it does support the Jewish connection which is so widespread believed among the community:

Western anthropologist such as Swiderski and Weil have noted similarities between Knanaya traditions and those of Cochin Jews.

Finally I honestly believe the version before the recent mass revert (of those sections which I edited) was well cited and better than current version, and a better article would be a modification of that version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Knanaya&oldid=656377540

1. Cite error: The named reference kottayamad.org was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Cite error: The named reference knanaya.us was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. Cite error: The named reference knanayavoice.in was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
4. Oral Tradition, 3/1-2 (1988): 122-37, Swiderski
5. Weil, Shalva. "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: the Cnanite Christians and the Cochin Jews of Kerala," Contributions to Indian Sociology, 1982. 16(2): 175-196. Weil, Shalva. "'Symmetry Between Christians And Jews In India: The Canaanite Christians And The Cochin Jews Of Kerala" in Tim Timberg (ed.) The Jews of India, Delhi: Vikas Publication, 1986.pp.177-204. Jussay P.M. 1986; Menachery 1973; Menachery 1998.

Stansley (talk) 23:00, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

As I explained, everything I restored was cited to reliable sources by experts in the field. The problem with a number of the recent changes were that they altered or removed reliably-sourced material, or introduced material that wasn't supported by reliable sources. I've altered your two most recent changes as well:

1. I restored the comment from Swiderski on whether the etymologies are convincing. As an expert in this field, his interpretation of the facts is most certainly relevant. It should not be removed, but if you know of a source of similar caliber that disagrees with him, we can include it as well.

2. I altered part of your changes on the Joseph Chazhikaden material as well. Per the words to watch guideline, terms like "noted" are peacock terms that should be avoided. The term claim is also a loaded word, and is in fact more dismissive of Chazhikaden than what was there originally. The given source does indeed say that Chazhikaden "conceived and promulgated" the idea that the Knanaya are descended from Jews, so there's no sense in changing it. Again, if we have a source from a scholar of similar caliber that has another interpretation, we can include that as well. But the previous edits only cited Chazhikaden himself, which is a primary source and therefore problematic in this circumstance.

As with anything, we must rely on high-quality sources written by experts, per our policies on verifiability and due weight. We can and should add more material from other scholars if available, but we can't change material without sources, or introduce non-reliable sources.--Cúchullain /c 23:52, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

One more note: the recent edits (possibly by another editor) introduced some new material attributed to papers by Shalva Weil. Weil would be a reliable source for this topic, but unfortunately her work has been widely misused across Misplaced Pages, including at this article, as can be seen in the above sections. I do not think those works should be included here until we can verify that they're being accurately represented. If we can get that, her voice should be included here.--Cúchullain /c 00:13, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Dear Cúchullain

I would like to have a more senior editor's third party opinion on this. Can you arrange this? I disagree VERY passionately with your points. I hope I can explain this to you, and the third party editor.

1. I completely disagree regarding putting a baseless claim Swiderski has made purely on the grounds you or others consider him an 'expert', and I believe this attitude is not only logically flawed but dangerous. See Argument from authority.

In this specific instance, I don't really care- because I don't find either of the etymologies personally particularly convincing (I personally think the word Cana possibly refers to the medieval Yemenese port Qana (near Al_Mukalla), which was a major port in the Indo-Arab trade links- but this is just a theory and pure guess work). But I object to the codifying of Swiderski's opinions as being authoritative.

There aren't many western scholars who have written on Knanaya and it is unlikely I am going to find one who is going to disagree with every random unbacked opinion Swiderski has made.

Being from a western university and having published in western journals is generally what in today's mainstream currency grants someone an apparent reputation for expertise. A Knanayan scholar who has lived and understands his community is in practice deemed less of an expert regarding his own community's beliefs, practices and traditions, in comparison with a Western scholar who has read some literature, and perhaps done a field work for a limited period of time, and published in a what is deemed International Journal (i.e. nearly all are western journals).

I have read Swiderski critically, who is at best is a western academic who has compiled literature on Knanaya into western scholarly articles, and to these articles added his own opinions, which honestly are not credible at times with biases and prejudices and at some points plain hubris.

Scholars like Swiderski are useful but only in so far as the their content is factual. Uncritical acceptance will lead to the white-washing of non-Western histories and the codifying their biases.

The uncritical acceptance of so called 'experts' unsupported opinions has lead to an eurocentric, neocolonial whitewashing of non-European histories on Misplaced Pages and is an issue editors in Misplaced Pages need to address.

I still believe a more accurate to say according Chazhikaden the Knanaya are a Jewish Christian origin or with some wording that doesn't sheeply accept Swiderski's unbacked claim that Chazhikaden made the theory up himself. (I am reading Frykenberg who seems to be quite sympathetic to the Jewish origin theory, but haven't checked his sources).

2. I have explained it is important to include how the Knanaya today define themselves. This is important because it is an important aspect of their identity and culture.

I don't understand why legends which are recorded by the Portuguese or by Western Anthropologists are more valid than equally likely or less likely legends believed by Knanaya people of today. The sources given are primary sources of official bodies including the official Archparchy website of the Knanaya diocese in the Catholic Church, and by reason should be *more* credible than secondary sources.

Misplaced Pages policy as currently interpreted is codifying a 'Western-European Gaze' as being more legitimate than the way non-western groups identify themselves. The editorial system has become such that it seems a legend however wild is valid only if a western authority has published it and has placed its consent. Logic and reasoning play limited part.

I have previously explained almost 90% of the entire article is not proper history but the recounting of traditions and legends, as recounted in mainly Euro-American sources.

3. As for similarity between Knanaya and Jews. Swiderski says:

"Though the history of the rituals’ development is difficult to trace, it is clear that they are the result of Near Eastern, particularly Jewish, elements combining with native Hindu elements"

Swiderski again: "The Knanaya claim an affinity with the Cochini Jews: a comparative study of the content of the wedding songs of both groups would be very instructive. Weil (1982) has adduced a few common features as evidence of “cultural symmetry” between the Knanaya and Cochini Jews"

Source: http://journal.oraltradition.org/files/articles/3i-ii/7_swiderski.pdf?origin=publication_detail

He cites Weil: Shalva Weil. “Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cnanite Christians and the Cochin Jews of Kerala.” Contributions to Indian Sociology, 16.2:175-96.

The title of Weil's paper and Swiderski's text shows Weil says there are similarities.

Stansley (talk) 01:54, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I'll try to respond to your points, though your formatting makes it a bit difficult to follow. I'm sympathetic to the problem of Indian history being written by Western academics. There may be Indian scholars we could cite for this topic; if so their voices should certainly be included. In some ways, though, it's an unavoidable issue with this kind of writing. Misplaced Pages can't take the word of its anonymous editors as to what's reasonable or not; we have to rely on what appears in reliable, published sources with expertise in the relevant field. Swiderski is certainly one. We also have to make sure the sources are represented accurately. So for instance in the case of the etymologies, if we just discuss the two etymologies without comment, it implies that either could be credible. This misrepresents Swiderski, who specifically says that neither is credible.

A much bigger issue at Indian articles on Misplaced Pages has been the addition of biased or dubious material based on non-reliable sources, misrepresented sources, or no sources at all. Just peruse some of the previous sections to see how this has played out at this article before. I don't think you'll find much support for downplaying Swiderski, especially not on those grounds. He is likely one of the best available sources for this topic per our guidelines on reliable sources (see WP:SCHOLARSHIP). Again, the better solution will be to find other reliable sources whose viewpoints can be incorporated in addition to his.

On Chazhikaden, I'll try to tweak the wording to make it clearer that it's Swiderski's own claim that Chazhikaden originated the Jewish origin theory, and make it clearer that many Knanaya accept it (Swiderski does say this). However, we can't suggest that Chazhikaden was relying on pre-existing folklore without a reliable source that makes that statement directly; as we've established, Swiderski certainly does not argue that.

Finally, there is a mechanism for getting third opinions in the form of WP:3O. There are other forms of dispute resolution if that fails. I'll start a 3o request if you like.--Cúchullain /c 15:02, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I've rewritten the section to attribute claims about Chazhikaden directly to Swiderski, instead of saying them in Misplaced Pages's voice. There's not much else that can be done so far as Chazhikaden goes with the present sources; Swiderski is very clear in his claims that Chazhikaden developed the Jewish origin legend. I've rearranged a few other things as well.

I've also put in a request for some papers by Shalva Weil from my college library, including "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India", which you mention. The above material was added by an anonymous editor (was this you?) here. Here you advocated for citing the paper (and a second, misnamed paper), but here it appears you haven't read it. This could be a problem, as I said, I removed that material because Weil's work has been widely misused (and probably distorted) in this and related articles. Hopefully we'll be able to sort that part out soon. I also emailed Dr. Weil about other potential sources to use (I couldn't find any contact info for Swiderski).--Cúchullain /c 18:28, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I've restored another removal of this material for the same reasons. I've gotten a copy of Weil's works. I can safely assert that she has been misrepresented throughout Misplaced Pages. However, her work will be a valuable addition to articles on the Knanaya as well as Indian Jews. I asked her for help identifying other possible sources and she couldn't recommend many. I'll try to get a hold of any I can. She did say there is more recent work but if it's been published I haven't been able to locate it. At any rate, I'll try to include material from Weil soon.--Cúchullain /c 21:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Removing a blunder under the heading Origins and Traditions

It is stated that This story may reflect a historical migration of East Syrian Christians to India during this time, which established the region's relationship with the Church of the East.!!! The relation between India and the Church of the East was established long before the alleged arrival of Thomas of Cana in 345 AD or in the 8th century. There are several sources which underline this fact. Giving one example here, Bishop John who attended the Council of Nicea in 325, signed himself as Bishop of Great India and Persia, which is a clear evidence for the relation between India and the Church of the East even before the alleged southist migration. Hence, removing the last part (highlighted portion) of the sentence. Achayan (talk) 15:44, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

That's not what the sentence is saying (or at least, it's not what it's supposed to say). It's saying that the traditions about Thomas of Cana may be later recollections of an actual historical migration of Syriac Christians, which could have occurred at any earlier date. I've restored the line, since it's important to note this this migration may have been what led to the connection with the Persian Church.--Cúchullain /c 21:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

The region's connection with West Asia was established long back due to the presence of Syriac speaking Jews in Malabar and the trade between them. It has nothing to do with Southists. Even Southists reached here only because the region had prior connection with the Church of the East. So it is the other way round. The Persian Church and Indian Church is connected by St. Thomas the Apostle, who is believed to be the founder of both the Churches, and not by southists. Such fake southist propaganda can not be kept in wiki unless you come up with solid evidences that there was no Malabar-Persia connection before the arrival of southists. Achayan (talk) 07:47, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

As a consensus, I have replaced the word established with strengthened, which would be more realistic. ThanksAchayan (talk) 08:03, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That edit missed the correct sense: the connection between India and the Persian Church was "established" at some point, it's the date that's not clear. This is what the cited source is getting at. The source is Stephen Neill; it's certainly not "Southist propaganda".--Cúchullain /c 13:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

There's no problem mentioning the traditions in the lead either; they're an important part of the culture and the article. Per WP:LEAD, the introduction summarizes the key parts of the article body. Also, the material on the church denominations and the diaspora is cited to Swiderski in the article body.--Cúchullain /c 15:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Jewish origin tradition in the lede

The Jewish origin tradition is significant enough to the Knanaya culture, and to this article, that it deserves a brief mention in the lead. Again, per WP:LEAD, the introduction should summarize the key parts of the article body, and this is one.--Cúchullain /c 15:00, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

We also can't reuse Swiderski's "conceived and promulgated" phrasing without attribution in the lead, for multiple reasons. For one, it's plagiarism. For another, this is his interpretation, we can't put it in Misplaced Pages's voice without attribution. It's enough to say the traditions were popularized in the 20th century and explain in detail below.--Cúchullain /c 15:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 12 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 09:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Knanaya → Southists – Per WP:COMMON NAME. The article clearly states that the common Malayalam name for the group is "Tekkumbhagar" and its English equivalent is "Southists". Almost all the citations use the term Southists of Southerners to refer the gorup. Giving some examples here: The most widely used WP:RS, Swiderski, uses the term Southists more often. In fact, the title of his book itself is "Northists and Southists". Again, Baum & Winkler uses the term Southerners, which another variant of Southists, and do not even mention the term Knanaya. Again Knanaya is not used in Neil's book. Also, the title of the book written by Joseph Chazhikkadan is Tekkumbhagasamudaya Charithram which is translated in English as History of the Southist Community (Swidersky also verifies this). Same is the case with other references too. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 11:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC) – Achayan (talk) 08:39, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:55, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• @Achayan:: Or to Southists (Kerala) :: there are or were many north-related and south-related factions across the world. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:55, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• @Anthony Appleyard:: At present, the page Southists is being redirected to Knanaya. There are no disambiguation pages also for the title Southists. So I think we can directly move to Southists. Achayan (talk) 15:08, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose, I think. Swiderski's "Northists and Southists" article (p. 73) specifies that the term "Southist" was an old name even at that time (1988). He uses it because he's discussing the former Northist-Southist divide, which was important historically but isn't any longer. "Knanaya" is the preferred modern term. He says the same in his book Blood Weddings: the Knanaya Christians of Kerala: "The Knanaya called themselves "Southists" ("Tekum- bhagar") until rather recently but as their history has lost all reference to the Northist-Southist split so they have ceased to use the term" (78).--Cúchullain /c 15:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes): "How the group self-identifies should be considered. If their autonym is commonly used in English, it would be the best article title." "Knanaya" is definitely in common use in English sources.--Cúchullain /c 15:59, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

You have stated above (under section Jewish origin tradition in the lede), "this is his (Swiderski's) interpretation, we can't put it in Misplaced Pages's voice without attribution". So your claim based on Swiderski's cannot be considered valid. Again, Joseph Chazhikkadan, himself a Southist, uses "History of the Southist Community" as the title of his book. Moreover, if you see the WP:RS given in the article, more than 95% of them uses the term Southists. The community is best known by the term Southist. Knanaya has very less popularity among the public and is uncommon. Achayan (talk) 16:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

The very first sentence under the heading "Names": The usual Malayalam name for the group is Tekkumbhagar. This is generally translated into English as "Southist". Achayan (talk) 16:23, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't follow. Swiderski is a perfectly reliable source (we just have to attribute his own views to him). In both those books he's clear Knanaya is the preferred modern term as of the 80s. Knanaya certainly isn't uncommon, there are hundreds of Gbooks hits. In fact, it seems to be even more common than Southist, according to Ngram.--Cúchullain /c 18:10, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Swidersky himself counter your argument. He states that "The Malayalam names for the Christian divisions are ALWAYS Tekkumbhagar-Vadakumbhagar, but the English equivalents may be Nordhist-Suddhist or Northerner-Southerner, though Northist-Southist is MOST COMMON". Leaving apart Swidersky, we know Baum and Winkler not even mentions the name Knanaya, instead uses Southerners. Southist writer Chazhikkaden also uses Tekkumbhagar (Southists). Your opinion that Southists were called Southists all the way from 4th or 8th century till 1980, but now they changed to Knanaya is very strange. The Southists may be able to identify the term Knanaya, but the majority of the public is ignorant of it. And the wiki page is not written exclusively for Southists, but for the common public. As all the reliable references prefer the term Southists, we will also have to go with the term Southists. We can mention the term Knanaya with due importance inside the article. Achayan (talk) 07:51, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest you to revert the changes you have made to the article (subsection Names) on a topic under discussion until we reach a consensus. Also, I am glad to notice that history of this talk page contains several requests to move the page to Tekkumbhagar or Southists, which are literally unanswered. Hope you would understand that the term Knanaya is yet to reach the common public and the page move is necessary, either to Southists or Tekkumbhagar. Lets go with the reliable sources and move the page. We shall also explain in detail regarding the newly coined term Knanaya in the article. Achayan (talk) 08:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I moved your comments as they appeared to be directed at me rather than to Anthony. Swiderski says that "the name for the Christian divisions are always Tekkumbhagar-Vadakumbhagar", which means Southists and Northists. But in the first paragraph he is clear that "Kerala Christians today seldom acknowledge this division". Right after discussing the names, he writes, "I first learned of them in discussions with Knanaya, members of a Kerala Christian ethnic group, who say they were once called Southists and occasionally repeat older legends to explain the name." The name "Southist" is the older term, deriving from a time that the North-South division was more important in the Saint Thomas Christian community. It's still in use, but Swiderski is clear that Knanaya is the preferred modern term, in this and other works. While "Southist" is still in use and is a perfectly acceptable term in the article body, the name of the article should be Knanaya. And no, I'm not going to revert the changes to the name section as they're closer to what Swiderski says.--Cúchullain /c 14:03, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Please do not impose your conclusions to Swidersky. And you are silent about the other sources which I mentioned! And if you are saying, there is no Northist-Southist division now, then the article itself is irrelevant and we will better merge this with Saint Thomas Christians and dedicate a couple of paragraphs explaining the conflict history. Especially, when we do not have an article titled Northists. Are you ready for that? If not, the name of the article should be Southists. You are ignoring all the other sources and taking selected content from a particular source and coming to absurd conclusions. Achayan (talk) 15:13, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Baum and Winkler (p 52):"Their descendants have been called Southerners (Tekkumbhagar) UP TO THE PRESENT DAY (2003)" This is the bottomline. Do you need anything more? Achayan (talk) 16:01, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Look, I'm just stating what Swiderski says. He says that the North-South element of the division is old and no longer especially relevant to either side of the community. As of 1987 the division is thought of in different ways than it was historically. And he's very clear that Knanaya is the preferred term today, and as I showed with the Ngram, it's as or more common than "Southists".

As for the other sources, it's true that Neill and Baum & Winkler don't appear to mention the term "Knanaya", but nor do they get into the issue of the names specifically. The book by Joseph Chazhikkadan is in Malayalam and is from 1940! As I said before, both of Swiderski's works get into the name issue and specify that "Knanaya" is now preferred. Shalva Weil's "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: the Cnanite Christians and the Cochin Jews of Kerala" uses an alternate spelling of Knanaya. Other common works using Knanaya include Paul Thenayan's The missionary consciousness of the St. Thomas Christians (p. 14), Israel J. Ross's "Ritual and Music in South India" (p. 81) and the St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India, where their entry is under "The Knanaya Community of Kerala". So yeah, I'm standing by my !vote.--Cúchullain /c 16:04, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• @Achayan: To people living in and around Kerala, Kerala may seem central. But to me here in England, the name "Southists" first suggested the American Civil War, and Southists (Kerala) with disambiguater would be clearer to people living away from Kerala. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:51, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment Can clarification be given on claim of commonname.

Yes, "Southist" (and "Southists") will return hits for other things of the name.. "Knanaya" has also been written in English in a few different ways at different times, including Cnanite, Knanite, and Qnanaye. We also need to consider Neil's statement that by the 1980s "Southist" was no longer widely used and Knanaya was preferred: "The Knanaya called themselves 'Southists' ('Tekum- bhagar') until rather recently but as their history has lost all reference to the Northist-Southist split so they have ceased to use the term" (Blood Weddings, p. 88).--Cúchullain /c 13:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

August 2015

I've twice reverted some recent changes for several reasons. The style is very poor, containing incorrect capitalization, verb agreement, and word; for instance, the first sentence said "The Knanaya, are christian sect that claims to be the followers of a Syrian Christian merchant Thomas of Cana tradition." The comma after "Knanaya" is wrong, "Christian" is uncapitalized, and the verb "claims" doesn't agree with the previous "are". In addition to the style errors, the intro makes false claims about the nature of the Knanaya. They aren't a "Christian sect", they belong to the same churches as other Saint Thomas Christians, and there are more than one. Additionally, the sources are clear that the Thomas of Cana tradition is rarely advanced today.
As before, the edits also include a mass of biased or simply incorrect information. For one of many examples, the edits claim the Knanaya were once known as "Suddhist" and that this means "Purist". None of the sources back it up and it appears to be flatly false; I'm pretty sure the word is a reference to "South". Other passages are simply biased, for instance, " In the modern ecumenical era these terms are considered insignificant and the usage is shunned". This citation also misuses the citation, which says nothing of the sort. Another passage discusses "recent DNA research by Dr. Mini Kariappa," but attributes the claim to the Jacobson and Raj source, which appears to say no such thing. As such there's nothing salvageable here.--Cúchullain /c 16:16, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

The edits were reinstated in spite of all the problems addressed above. I suppose we'll have to seek additional help here.--Cúchullain /c 18:03, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, the edits restored all of the above problems. This needs to be addressed before any of the changes are restored.--Cúchullain /c 20:02, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

The article has been semi-protected due to the disruptive editing. I've restored the previous version. We can talk about potential improvements here.--Cúchullain /c 14:44, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Clarifications:

1. Knanaya is a part of the Saint Thomas Christians. But in identity they differ and they don't strictly claim to be descendants of those who where proselytized by St.Thomas, Instead, they are followers of Thomas of Cana with syrian traditions. So if you ask are they part of the the Syrian Christians - Yes. Are they part of the St. Thomas Christians - No. So keeping it as a (religious sect: A subdivision of a larger religious group) wouldn't hurt and gives more clarity.

Eg: The marriage customs are really varied and distinct from other Syrian Christians. This is not something that started recently but existed decades before. An earliest documented video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEN1UW86xdI

2. The term Suddhist is a transliterated Malayalam word, If looked otherwise through dictionaries i doubt there would be a meaning. This is a vile representation. But what Suddhist(Malayalam) means is Purist(English).

3. In the modern ecumenical era these terms are considered insignificant and the usage is shunned. The presence Knanaya with other various factions of Saint Thomas Christians are present ranging from Malankara, Orthodox, Jacobite, Catholic to Pentecostal. So calling names and like Southist and Northist are no longer relevant. It is a hate word.

4. "Recent DNA research by Dr. Mini Kariappa," that attributes the claim to the Selva Raj, is from a revised version of the authors article based on recent scientific study. You can check the abstract of Dr. Mini Kariappa with a simple google check, for verification.

5. Why the terms like Southist or Northist should be removed and the unclear tradition sources should be solidified with the existing oral traditions? Swiderski himself casts doubts about Chazhikaden's propagated theories. To understand this one must understand the socio-political structure that existed in that time period. Even today much of the voting in areas like Kottayam, Changanassey, Pala, Ernakulam, Wayanad is based on religious influence. So it is no wonder why Chazhikaden and others created non-existent divisions and religious superiority without the backing of any solidified evidence. Some are there even today who blindly follow it to stir the pot for personal gratifications. One such attempt is the obsession about endogamous marriage, In Kerala during that era members of Hindu religion followed this tradition to keep the finance and vast cultivated lands within the family. As history teaches any new immigrants aren't welcomed at first, so to sustain the growth of the clan when the natives wont let their children to marry with unfamiliar people; It might have been essential to follow an endogamous tradition to secure the marriage rights. This practice might have been existed in an era, but there is no value about it in the present day and age. But as answered in the 3rd clarification, when such widely joint familial traditions have evolved what is the need keep such the perverted plots of some people added to the history of a community to motivate scratches into scabs.

Keeping such perverted material is shady and questionable. This is not a personal attack but an opinion and resent about the content.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.213.18.181 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for finally responding on the talk page, but your response leaves a lot to be desired. None of your comments justify the various problems with your edits.

1.: That's irrelevant. They are still Saint Thomas Christians, regardless of how it originated. This is verified by basically all the sources.

2.: You can't add material without a reliable source to support it. You seem to admit there are no reliable sources that explain the term "Suddhist" in the way you say, meaning it can't be added.

3.: No sources seem verify your claim that "Southist" is a "hate word". The article already makes it clear that "Southist" and the north-south divide are falling out of favor.

4.: The newest edition of Jacobsen and Raj's South Asian Christian Diaspora does not seem to include the material you attribute to it. It's also impossible to find due to the fact that you didn't include page numbers or the name of Kariappa's actual paper. As such it can't go in the article. If you have the direct source from Mini Kariappa, please provide it so it can be vetted. This isn't the only case where you included incomplete or false citations; you also did it with Swiderski's description of Monserrate's account. You also added a line saying "Many of the Knanaya community and religious-organizations accept this to be the factual and conventional account" and an entire paragraph on "existence of such Syrian christian faction" (sic) that have no sources whatsoever. This isn't going to fly

5.: Misplaced Pages articles include all significant viewpoints, including those with historical significance like the North-South divide in the Saint Thomas Christian community. The rest of your comment is your own speculation. The material isn't "perverted" and there's nothing "shady and questionable" about keeping what high-quality academic sources about the subject say.--Cúchullain /c 13:22, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for opening a channel of conversation. First thing you have to understand is that, I am not the person whom you say that edited those details into the existing page. I am the one who tried to keep neutrality to the whole page.

1. High-quality academic sources are questionable by the way the subject is presented. Swiderski's work is receiving a widely unapproved tone by the community members, itself in this talk page. I guess its time to avoid Swiderski's "claims". If the arguer cant understand it or have lived experience for that matter, then nothing is going to fly. That is understood.

2. Distinction between Knanaya and the rest of the Saint Thomas Christians, are clearly explained. I don't need to justify it.

3. Suddhist, is a word that I saw that was used and the correct explanation was given. So when the matter was pleaded by you. I just informed you about what does it mean why does it mean as such.

4. I haven't seen the "South Asian Christian Diaspora" but have heard in study class' about excerpts citing the DNA Evidence from a local magazine citing Selva Raj revised articles, so the mentioned part from the previous editor is true. I don't even know if it is from the same book you cite. Come on, you cant search for Mini Kariappa's research. Even by simply searching the name, research pops up. That is no real argument and doesn't display the right attitude.

5. Northist or Southist is a "hate word" propagated by . Strangely, there is no mention of it in other Syrian Christian/St. Thomas Christian texts of such divide. When it didn't exist, why even put north-south divide are falling out of favor. Any evidence that is found is unhealthy chain referral which have taken a snow-ball effect from false claims and fictional accounts.

6. All the English are limeys/fog horns, is it a discriminating word or a hate word. Because it doesn't cite anywhere as such, could it be untrue. All the English are the source of evil according to many highly educated Muslim scholars and there are published materials. Does it mean they are true. There is this difference in your logic.

I would say to keep the page neat and clean from biased and broken stories that doesn't let the reader understand anything, and keep the edits as before (because it seemed to be true in facts) and don't allow younglings who look-up for their history & be faced with perverted and untrue material. I cant stress it anymore the need to be self-conscious and good at heart while using administrative privileges.

Look up - "Most people try to help the project, not hurt it. If this were untrue, a project like Misplaced Pages would be doomed from the beginning."

Look up - NPOV

Considering that we have at least one editor who's editing from multiple different IP addresses, it would probably be best if you all create an account. That will be the only good way to keep track of who's saying what.

1. Misplaced Pages articles are based on high-quality academic sources. If you have a problem with how the sources are being used, please clarify. I did a lot of the work here, and made every effort to follow the sources as closely as possible.

2. The article already explains the distinction. However, it's a matter of fact that the Knanaya are part of the Saint Thomas Christian community. Additionally, contrary to your edit, they are not one "christian sect", they belong to multiple different churches that are the same as other Saint Thomas Christians.

3. Again, this doesn't matter unless you have a source explaining it.

4. You attributed your information to the Jacobsen and Raj book, Southeast Asian Christian Diaspora, that's listed in the references. That's a false citation, as it doesn't appear in the book. If it appears in some other reliable source, you need to bring it up or the material can't be added. And no, I'm not going to track down citations by Mini Kariappa without knowing exactly what it is you're trying to cite. I'm not familiar with their work. If you want to include material, the burden of evidence is on you to back it up with a proper citation.

5. Again, the north-south divide is of great historical importance and necessary for an understanding of this community. No citation backs up the claim that "Southist" is a "hate word"; it has been used by members of the community themselves.

6. I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

And yes, the page needs to be "neat and clean" and free from bias - from all sides. In my opinion, it does it quite nicely as it is.--Cúchullain /c 16:42, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

"And yes, the page needs to be "neat and clean" and free from biased and broken stories - from all sides. In my opinion, it does it quite nicely as it" - Good one. LMGO, :D.

all-define, cant be guessed, :D.

It seems you have invested a lot of time in this page, I hope you could exit from policing this page without hurting, in your time. Otherwise, Good Luck on Edit Wars.

All those wedding customs that were previously entered are true facts. Some editors even point out the weakened statements and distorted speculations of Swiderski as I have did - An article/research that was accepted without any background check, supervision, proper peer review or prepared without proper fieldwork to understand the community or its traditions.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.215.199.14 (talk • contribs)

If it wasn't clear, the changes you made introduced bias, among other problems. We can work on specific changes if they're needed, but everything must be neutral and verifiable according to reliable sources. Swiderski is of course a reliable source for this topic by Misplaced Pages standards. That means he can be cited, whether you happen to agree with his conclusions or not.--Cúchullain /c 19:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

"As I said, I removed that material because Weil's work has been widely misused (and probably distorted) in this and related articles" - The same logic applies to Swiderski's source. Especially when community members express unfamiliarity and perplexed by the fantastical nature of the content in the source. Reasons :- Misleading & Poor Quality Data, Fictitious and Irrelevant Elements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.215.199.145 (talk) 21:28, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I can vouch for the fact that Swiderski isn't being distorted or misused here.--Cúchullain /c 22:11, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Those who propagate a North-South division among Syrian Christians (Unclear) with edits or that between Knanaya Groups, start an other page and propagate those "supposedly true" facts from mysticism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.248.62.156 (talk • contribs)

Stop edit warring. Your edits are disruptive to the article.--Cúchullain /c 14:45, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2015

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

More than emphasizing Knanaya Christian ways,this article seems to propagate and incline more on Tekkumbhagar which none of us(new generation) are aware of through sunday schools or churches. I would like to kindly request that these un-encyclopedic and misleading material be removed or the article be revised in a minimalist manner by avoiding words that can generate tension between communities. As someone said Swiderski's citation are almost fantastical in nature. I can vouch that many elements even the given song isn't transliterated in proper native language. 61.0.76.210 (talk) 10:04, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• Not done: That is not how Misplaced Pages works. We are not censored, and we rely on reliable sources for our articles. Also, we cannot take your word for it as that constitutes original research which we do not use. If you have a specific request you can make that but it must be formatted in a "Change X to Y" format. Any changes besides general typos and copyediting should be accompanied by a reliable source that backs up what you want to change. --Stabila711 (talk) 22:49, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

December 2015

I've reverted this series of changes. In addition to adding numerous style and factual errors (lines like "The Knanaya, are christian community...", "In the modern ecumenical era earlier discrimination terms that were used is shunned", "Historical evidences", etc.), the changes also contradict the sourced material. Material attributed to Swiderski was excised or altered to make claims not found in the source, and new material lacking any sourcing was added. In general, the edits were detrimental to the article.--Cúchullain /c 19:14, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

From previous edit histories the problem is very clear that it has less weight on the "issue at hand" and more tendency to get into the same types of disputes again and again. Whether you're right or wrong on the specifics of this dispute, you're claims are detrimental to the article if you let yourself get into another very similar conflict as in the past. At a certain point, you have to ask yourself, "what am I doing that leads me to get into so many disputes with so many different community members using Misplaced Pages?". But this shouldn't stop you from promoting Northists and Southists Theory of Swiderski and for the creative writing you may start here Northist and Southist divide among Syrian Christians and the same could be linked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.89.236.248 (talk)

As I explained to you before, Swiderski is obviously a reliable source for this topic, and his material is accurately represented here. We don't remove well-sourced material because certain editors disagree with it.--Cúchullain /c 14:50, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Again, edit warring and excising well-sourced material are not acceptable. Please stop immediately.--Cúchullain /c 18:49, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

. The article has been protected. I'm going to restore the last good version. If you have other suggestions or corrections, please discuss them here on the talk page.--Cúchullain /c 21:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Again, edit warring by Cúchullain, please give a rest to this obsessiveness. I have seen the edit, it was good. Even the excised material based on one source from Swiderski, his theory was given a separate head, not the current manner of poor editing like weeds in a paddy field Swiderski's widely conflicted theory is jammed with Knanaya article, which makes any reader question what this article is really about. If admin's like NeilN could take up this, it would be great. Because you can see what Cúchullain did after your page protection and it seems its not his/hers first attempts on this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.210.249 (talk) 03:36, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I also concur with the weeding principle pointed out by 59.88.210.249. Like in Matthew 13:24-30. But Cúchullain can also see, if s/he has good intentions and require Swiderski's theory be promoted revert to https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Knanaya&oldid=693628604 since "obviously reliable" source is kept as it is without deletion, but for clarity in a separate head. At-least I hope this time like other Knanaya community members hoped previously let our voice be heard and the least partially justified with Cúchullain Swiderski division theory terms.

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