Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:52, 31 July 2006

Let's work on this

Alright, this article does need a bit of work. It may not be the most high-traffic page on the wiki, but that doesn't mean it should fall short of our high standards. This article, when I first looked at it... well, it sucked. I did some work and, I'd like to think, it sucked a little bit less when I was done. It still needs a heap o' fixing, though.

To that end, I dig most of what Mrja84 did in his last edit, but I have two disagreements with the changes (obviously, they're the items I put back in the article. The comments on the Smart usenet flamewars, and the issue of his claimed doctoral degree, are very much deserving of a place in this article. This is not article about the BC3K games, or any of Smart's projects, it is about Derek Smart, the public figure, and to not include information on these facets of his public life, which certainly rival his contributions to the video game world in the public eye, is a real disservice to the reader. There will be people who come to this article, much like I did, to try and find out why this guy's name comes up so often, and, quite frankly, there's a better chance they came across a flame war reference than someone talking about Universal Combat.

That said, let's make sure to really NPOV this sucker, that's been a big problem in this article.

Fox1 15:19, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Other Issues

The last time I looked at this page, I noticed that the "vending machine" story needed some work, and I meant (eventually) to come back and change it to reflect the facts (as far as I know them, not having been there myself). However, I see that someone has beaten me to it, and has done a better job than I would probably have done. I approve of the tone and the details of the "vending machine" story in this version. I think it fairly balances the story (which is well-known and entertaining, and thus deserves a mention) with what appear to be the facts (and backed up with a citation, which is always nice). Well done. -- BBlackmoor 18:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Statements requiring verification

I removed the following statement from the "Other issues" section, pending verification from a reliable published source:

Smart also claimed his Ph.D was from a "renowned accredited University", but has admitted in an email that he bought it from a diploma mill.

While re-typing it here, I took the liberty of correcting its grammar. I hope that's okay. -- BBlackmoor 13:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Try http://follies.werewolves.org/archives/1NotSmart/1Anth2/AdmitsNotAccredited.txt pointing to Derek's claim his "University" is not accredited.

http://follies.werewolves.org/archives/1NotSmart/1Anth2/DiplomaFromDegreeMill.txt points to Derek claiming his "University" is a degree mill, 211.30.79.217 22:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Private emails posted on a partisan web site are not considered reliable sources. There's no way to verify who originally wrote them, if they've been modified since then, or even if what's been posted to that web site was ever sent as an email at all. It doesn't matter if it is true: it must be verifiable. -- BBlackmoor 23:04, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I removed the following statement pending verification from a reliable published source:

   Smart has claimed to have a bot which monitors detractor websites and has also 
   posted information about his attempt to have one of the detractors 
   fired.

Reminder: private emails or newsgroup messages do not constitute reliable sources. There's no way to verify who originally wrote them, if they've been modified since then, or even if what's been posted to that web site was ever sent as an email at all. It doesn't matter if it is true: it must be verifiable. -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-18 T 00:55 Z

Serious Sam

For some reason, the author of this article credited Smart with creating Serious Sam. I corrected his error. -gga_nate

npov

Weighty article. It may be true, but it really needs to have some cites for each of the controversial points. The fact that this article mentions nothing about him except these events is a good indicator that something's wrong. Please don't remove the npov until the statements are either not so one-sided, or until they're cited properly.

Also, please don't let this conflict (or whatever it is) spill into the other articles. for example, found in computer and video game genres: "It is also highly recomended, that newcomers of this genre avoid Battlecruiser Millenium, Universal Combat or any other Derek Smart games, as they tend to score rather low on most reviews and can leave a bad first impression". People don't need/want to know about this, at all.

On a personal aside, I understand that he made a lot of you mad, but grade school should have hardened you to this. I don't mean to sound condescending, but this is sad to see. For all you know he could be a decent guy, holding doors open for strangers and all that - but all I know about him now is that he got into a flamewar against howevermany people, and now those people hate him. And he made a game that those people didn't like, and he's ashamed of the fact that he didn't get a proper degree. --Slike2 06:38, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You should probably take your problems with computer and video game genres over to that article's discussion, since a quick look shows that there really isn't a lot of crossover between editors here and editors there. And you are being condenscending, no one here has any personal vendetta against Derek Smart, everything in this article is a reflection of a popular consensus that already exists. (I don't even play video games and I've heard about most of it.) It does need citations though. - Lifefeed 13:36, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there isn't a lot of crossover between editors here and at cv genres, but there is crossover between editors here and editors that would insert referances to how unpopular derek smart is where you just don't need them. And if all you're writing about is this consensus, then I think that this article could be moved to "derek smart controversy" - that is, after all, what this article's about, no? --Slike2 20:22, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well..

I think the emphasis from many of these editors here (a couple of whom don't seem to have had prior knowledge of the great flame war that Derek Smart participated in) is that a huge bunch of people hate Derek Smart, etc.

On the contary, apart from those who were offended by Derek Smart's occassional racist comment or legal threat, the vast majority actually find Derek Smart's pointless rants quite entertaining.

I think 'grade school' has hardened the majority of people who know about Derek Smart, hence why they have been goading Derek Smart on since 1994, because that is what they learnt in school.

And on the issue of the comments on his games not being relevant to the title, again on the contary they are vital towards the story of Derek Smart's adult life because the only thing people care and want to know about is Derek Smart's role in the Battlecruiser 3000 debacle and his part in the longest running flame war since records began.

I do not see anything wrong with this article and it is not doing anyone any harm.

Let it stand because lets face it, if Derek Smart actually did find this article offensive...blimey would you lot know about it!

81.178.203.55

Lambasted Lambasted Lambasted

This article uses the word "lambast" too much. 81.155.80.24

I think people need to use words that are universally understood. Also it seems people who dislike Derek and unfortunatly committ their lives to hating him (a real waste of time) are just editing this page to further their own goals or ideals.--- Mrja84 02:53pm (EST)

3000 AD Games

Good edits to the "Universal Combat" section, 70.224.90.25. You really improved that paragraph. -- BBlackmoor 01:52, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Copy Protection

Some of these titles have some pretty heavy copy-protection. You can't get them to run on a machine that has Visual C++ installed, for example. Anybody think we should bring that up?

Vandalism

It never ceases to amaze how much time and effort people put into disparaging and libeling others. The 'verifiable sources' part of the Misplaced Pages rules doesn't seem to have struck home with some people posting all manner of crap in this section. Like the latest attacks, vandalism and downright unverifiable material recently posted.

This is exactly why this whole Misplaced Pages concept has been taking such a beating in the news lately whereby people are deliberately posting lies, fabrication, unverifiable and unsubstantiated material etc etc.

Supreme_Cmdr 23:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

In a small way, this was partly my fault. I added this page to my watchlist to look for vandalism, but, as you can see, I got some of it, but not all (that was before I learned how to use Misplaced Pages's page comparisons). Hopefully, in the future, crap like this won't slip under the radar. I don't think this is really a case of "verifiable sources" so much as pure vandalism. I couldn't possibly believe that whoever added that believed it, but just wanted to cause some mischief. Anyways, no one ever said Misplaced Pages was perfect. Thankfully, it's taken care of now. (Though with your constant googling of your own name, I can't imagine any vandalism lasting for very long. Sorry, couldn't resist.) Cheers.

-- Hinotori 23:24, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding my last edit

I added back the critical information because the fact that they ARE claimed is verifiable. The site that attacks Derek Smart is obviously one-sided, but it is one of the largest, most well known websites regarding him. It's an external link. Misplaced Pages makes no claims as to its truth or bias, but leaving the link out is a disservice to the reader who may be interested in all major links related to the article. As for the snippet regarding criticisms of the game, they have been stated in numerous reviews on the internet by respected sites. I think the article does a decent job at retaining NPOV by showing the counter, that the game is supposed to have depth, and therefore is likely to be complicated. Finally, regarding the whole mess about the PhD, as far as I know, there are ample records showing that, for a long time that was in fact how Smart signed his name.

Regards, -- Hinotori 16:02, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Closer examination revealed much of the omitted information not as being unverifiable, but as being repetitive. So I took out much of it again. I did leave in the part about his signing his name, but I made it past tense as he hasn't done that consistently anymore (or so I believe; feel free to give evidence negating this), and I omitted the word "failure" as that is POV.

-- Hinotori 16:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Re: Werewolves

Link in question: Werewolves

That external link DOES deserve a place in the article. It does NOT reflect Misplaced Pages's views or have Misplaced Pages's support in any way. It's merely a link to a site that is EXTREMELY germane to this article. When you do a google search of "Derek Smart," Werewolves is the very first page to come up. If that doesn't make it notable, I have no idea what does.

If you have problems with libel, you can take it up with THAT site, not here. Misplaced Pages's job is to catalogue information, including documenting important events and claims regardless of whether the claims THEMSELVES are verifiable. In other words, if a claim is verifiably notable and existent, it deserves a place in the article as long as it is not treated as fact which it is NOT in any way here. It's for that very reason that we have articles on notable conspiracy theories. We're not claiming they're true in any way, we're documenting it, as that is our job.

Finally, please don't condescend to the other editors here regarding reading the guidelines, especially when your edits are all in reference to one page (presumably, a page about YOU, though that's speculation on my part).

-- Hinotori 04:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

An added note: I editted the tagline for the link to make its bias more apparent; I hope this will at least show that the site is NOT regarded as being NPOV. -- Hinotori 04:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Urban legends and private emails posted on a partisan web site are not considered reliable sources. There's no way to verify who originally wrote them, if they've been modified since then, or even if what's been posted to that web site was ever sent as an email at all. It doesn't matter if it is true: it must be verifiable. Linking to a site full of nonsense is no more acceptable than adding that nonsense directly. And you know better. If you want to carry on some kind of personal grudge, do it on your own time, Hintori: Misplaced Pages is not the place for it. -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-8 T 06:08 Z

First of all, let me remind you to assume good faith. I have absolutely NO personal grudge against Derek Smart. I have never purchased one of his games, and I have never participated in the flame war, EVER. I have reverted vandalism on this page, and I've even deleted paragraphs of criticism that were repetitive, so I find your assumption that I'm acting on some kind of vendetta to not only be unfair and unfounded but extremely insulting. Secondly, the site is NOT posted as a RELIABLE SOURCE. It's posted as an external link that is germane to the topic at hand. As I said, Misplaced Pages has much information on things that are not considered reliable (like conspiracy theories) because they're notable. As long as our information REGARDING the topic is verifiable, then it's fair game. In this case, an external link does NOT have to be a reliable source, any more than a famous fan site of a certain celebrity or community (e.g. theforce.net for Star Wars). In this case, as I mentioned, Werewolves is the #1 site on google when you search Derek Smart. If that doesn't make it notable, I don't know WHAT DOES.

I'm putting it back in. If you decide to take it out again, I won't continue to do so, but I do suggest we seek mediation, if that's ok with you.

-- Hinotori 19:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

67.121.211.69 07:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC) The majority of the Werewolves material is not composed of private emails. The majority of the material is public posts from usenet (as shown by Newsgroups: in the headers) which are archived in numerous locations in addition to the Werewolves site.

"Many persons that are notable enough to have an article in Misplaced Pages about them are likely to have detractors, opponents and/or critics. Their views can be presented in a biography providing that these are based on credible sources and in a manner that do not overwhelm the article."

A link at the bottom of the article does not qualify as overwhelming.

Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. I am removing the link because its inclusion violates Misplaced Pages guidelines. Indulge your personal grudge (and you have made it abundantly clear that this is exactly what it is) on your own web site, not here. -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-9 T 04:40 Z

Hi, I'm not sure if you deliberately ignored my comment above. As promised, I won't revert it again, but I feel that mediation may be the best approach seeing as how your attitude here seems to indicate that common ground will be difficult to obtain. May I remind you again to assume good faith. I have no personal grudge against Derek Smart as per my comments above, and I'm interested in hearing how I've made "abundantly clear" that I do. Please let me know if you are willing to allow mediation to proceed. Cheers.

-- Hinotori 22:20, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

--

Most of the information at the website is either bogus or libelous. Only detractors don't know that. Heck, he even has a page in which he claims that Smart suffers from NPD (?). That page - like the rest of them - are linked to at that site. He suffers from NPD? So how exactly is that confirmed? How about the page in which he claims that Smart altered an email? Something that was vehemently disputed (by both sides) on Usenet? He has that as fact as well. Every time someone removes that URL from the WiKi, you put it back in; knowing fully well that it serves no purpose whatsoever. If we're going to allow that, we might as well grab all links for every WiKi person and just host. Some of the emails are also clear forgeries (compare to their Usenet originals)

Can you please point me to one of the posts on the Werewolves site that differs from the Usenet originals? (The few that I crosschecked were identical). 129.188.33.222 01:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

btw I'm not Smart. I just happen to use this handle because I'm a fan of his games. If he asks me to change my handle, I will; but I don't think he cares. Supreme_Cmdr 22:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

If you say you're not Smart, then I'm not going to challenge you, though I did find your use of his commonly used handle, the freely used term of "libelous," and the fact that this is the only page you've editted to be indicative. Not that it matters either way. The point I'm making here is that posting the link as an external link says absolutely nothing about the quality of the information at the link itself. The only test is whether or not the link is notable. I clearly described the link as being by detractors, so anyone clicking on it would know full well that it would probably be heavily biased. As for the link's notability, you still haven't answered how it is NOT notable despite being the number one link for "Derek Smart" on google. As I've made very, very clear, Misplaced Pages is a place of information, and information includes information ABOUT non-verifiable things. As long as the information itself is verifiable, it's fair game, and in the case of notability should be included. In this case, the fact that there ARE detractors and that they have a very notable website about Smart is both verifiable and notable, and should be included. I emphasize again, posting a link in the external link section says absolutely nothing about the link's content other than its notability.

Please refer to my examples above as to why this is the case.

-- Hinotori 23:02, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

If the information is not verifiable, then it is against Misplaced Pages policy to include it. If a site mnakes even a tacit attempt to verify its contents, then perhaps an argument can be made for including a link to it on Misplaced Pages. This is not the case with this "werewolves" site. Ergo, a link to that site will be deleted each time you add it, until such time as that site contains verifiable information.

As for "challenging" Supreme_Cmdr, let me remind you to assume good faith. -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-10 T 04:24 Z

You're still ignoring my arguments above as well as my question regarding getting mediation. Links in the external links section are NOT subject to the same policies as content in the encyclopedia itself. E.g. ebaumsworldsucks.com being in the ebaumsworld article; it's obviously fiercely POV and doesn't provide any justification for its claims but it's NOTABLE and GERMANE and therefore it's included. I promised not to revert it back and kept that promise; it's insulting that you're implying I would continue to do so, despite my reassurance that I wouldn't. Finally, I find it extremely ironic that you tell me to assume good faith when you haven't done so with me one bit, going so far as to imply I'm a liar with a personal grudge when neither of those things are true in the slightest. As with all your other negative assumptions about me, you haven't provided any evidence for this either. If you would be so kind as to explain why you think I have assumed anything other than good faith with Supreme_Cmdr, I'd be much obliged. As I seem to recall, I expressly stated I would not challenge him. Again, will you support a request for mediation or not?

-- Hinotori 04:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh sweet Cthulu... I do NOT want to get involved in this right now. *Sigh* Look, most of this argument isn't even on topic; you're freely swapping out policy that pertains to WP-created text within the article with external link policy. The policies are NOoOoOt the same thing. No amount of wishing, cajoling or "logical" "common sense" rationalizations will make it so.

That external link is the primary information source for the bulk of Derek Smart's notoriety. Derek Smart has no say in what he's known for: do you think that when an entity like Penny Arcade makes a one-off joke involving Smart, gives no background and their millions and millions of readers still get the joke, is that because Smart "stuck around and didn't disappear"? Well, when I put it like that, I guess that's true, but werewolves is the primary example of why he DIDN'T disappear, and why anyone but a rarefied few still know him by name. How many other PC game designers are that widely recognized by the public at large? Molyneux? Romero? Spector? Maybe Garriot?

Bottom line: Smart is famous for controversy, and werewolves, whether any of the information is true or not, is the best public record of that controversy: the forum posts, the usenet discussions, the emails. If you want it removed, provide something to take its place. I would also like to add that BB and Suprm, while you've been running rough-shod over Hinotori on this page, you are by no means in the majority or representing concensus. Please keep that in mind and keep the heavy-handedness to a minimum.

Fox1 (talk) 16:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Fox1 you are mostly wrong and dragging in semantics which don't even support the general argument. Now you, like Hintori, are appearing to be combative. You folks for some reason want to turn this Wiki into your public forum for misinformation and personal attacks. That ain't gonna happen. Since you two think that this is just a consensus for both of you I have sent Smart an email. Lets just wait until he shows up and see what happens going forward.

If anyone wants to learn about Smart, they can gleam the same exact information by Googling the groups without being subjected to the libelous (e.g. Huffman's psychoanalysis) and one sided presentation of Huffman's site. Thats like asking the Republicans to look up information about George Bush on Bill Clinton's site. Under any circumstance and legal precedent (of which there are several) Huffman's site would have ceased to exist by now and the archive flushed by Google (as they have done in other cases) if Smart pressed a lawsuit and prevailed. Any person with common sense knows right away that it just takes one lawsuit citing for e.g. Huffman's claim that Smart suffers from NPD and the site is gone. That information like everything else on Huffman's site, is not verifiable and therefore does not meet with the Wiki guidelines.

You also had no business putting the link back in when in fact the matter was under cabal mediation. Thats just arrogant. I have removed it. Lets keep doing that until the end of the world. Supreme_Cmdr 17:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm being combative? Really? I didn't think I was, but I suppose that's a matter of opinion.

Let me clear up a few things here: first, mediation is not binding. Second, I was not a party to the mediation, at any point. Third, this is a perfect example of WHY I re-added the link: you have no interest in working towards concensus or compromise, and I fail to see why your preferred version should stay live during mediation.

None of the things you mention as some form of proof (site being taken offline, finding of libel, clearing of google cache) have ever actually happened. All that carries about as much weight as me saying "Derek Smart is actually a hyper-intelligent, shape-changing form of rock mold. He could prove it in a lawsuit, but he doesn't want to go to the trouble." You seem very concerned with verifiability in external links (where that isn't policy), but you expect WP to bend to the whim of your own unbacked claims? I fail to see the consistency there.

P.S. Stop using the word libel, seriously. At this point, I don't think anyone's being swayed by your overuse of a legal term that you are completely unable to back up with any legal findings or documentation. You're simply throwing it in in place of "not nice," I think the veneer of authority has worn thin, there.

P.P.S. If Smart wants to grace us with his presence, that is, of course, his right. He will not, however, be given any greater authority to change this page than any other editor, and for any claims he makes, he will still need to provide a basis within WP policy for them to be valid input. Also, I believe individuals are discouraged from contributing to articles about themselves, but I will need to look that up.

Fox1 (talk) 18:19, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Your arguments strike me as bizarre, Supreme_Cmdr.

1) Your calling Fox1 (as well as myself) combative seems fairly ironic to me seeing as it's easily demonstratable that you have used personal attacks and condescension for much of your own arguments and have not given any support for your numerous accusations against the other users here.

2) Your analogy is severely flawed. Enter "Bill Clinton" and "George Bush" into Google and you'll find myriads of (attempted) NPOV resources. Enter "Derek Smart" and Huffman's site actually has more (albeit biased) information about him than almost any other website. That Huffman's site is notable, per it being the #1 hit on Google for Smart has already been established and hasn't been refuted by you. Why an external link does not have to be verifiable and NPOV has already been established by myself and Fox1 and also has not been refuted.

3) If Derek Smart actually sued Huffman for the comments related to NPD (the example you seem to be most fixated on), he would demonstrate a profound misunderstanding of law in general. First of all, Huffman doesn't even say that Smart HAS NPD. He suggests it, based on some other opinions and some reading he's done. Quote: What makes the most sense to me is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). The day where I can get sued for merely suggesting something about someone else is the day I move out of the United States. What's especially ironic about this is that, in many ways, Derek Smart could be considered a public figure. So even if Huffman outright said, "I know for a fact that Derek Smart has NPD and spends his weekends kidnapping small children," he might still win the court case (though obviously that's much harder to tell). When Derek Smart follows through on his threat here (where the webmaster in question doesn't even bother to mask his comments under a veil of "suggestion") and succeeds, I'll reconsider your argument.

4) Why is your version any more appropriate than... well... everyone else's? Even if we completely ignored the fact that the mediation case indicates a strong opinion against you and that you apparently have no interest in compromise or consensus, the version that had the link in it predated the mediation case. You need to make a compelling argument why it needs to be removed.

-- Hinotori 08:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

RfC

It looks like Hinotori has a point. Including a site in the links section is different from quoting it to the article text. Any reservations about the site's content can be expressed in a text explanation beside the link. Misplaced Pages cannot be accused of libel or POV for merely offering one link among several. I wonder why some editors are unwilling to discuss mediation. It seems to be a good idea. Durova 18:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

No, including a site with links is the same as quoting it. You can't take yourself too seriously if you argue otherwise. How different is it from telling someone to open up page 6 of a newspaper and just showing them a clipping of page 6? He doesn't have a point at all. There are literally millions of links on the Net about dsmart, why this link so important to some people? It is important because it has been a primary source of libelous and defamatory material against dsmart. If it was just a site with opinions that would be a different issue entirely. Instead not only does it go as far as posting actionable forgeries and libelous material it also has goes as far as copyright infringment. All of which do not meet the criteria for Wiki inclusion. It is also notable to point out that 99% of the material is not verifiable. Supreme_Cmdr

First of all, saying that someone (Durova in this case) can't take his or herself seriously if said person disagrees with you is teetering on the border of WP:NPA. Please respect the other editors here. Secondly, I don't see why you can't understand that this link isn't just important to "some" people. Obviously, it's important to many people if Google considers it more relevant to "Derek Smart" than Derek Smart's own website, the official Battlecruiser website, and even this very article. As for meeting the "criteria for Wiki inclusion," that's not germane to the argument here. I've made this point over and over, so maybe an example will better help you to understand. Please go to 9/11 conspiracy theories and tell me how many of the external links in the first half there contain "verifiable" information. They don't. They're posted there because they're obviously relevant to the article itself. Just like criticism (which, in all honesty is what Derek Smart is most known for: his conflagrations online) is relevant to this article here. -- Hinotori 02:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

You see? This is another example of you being confrontational. The phrase "taking one's self too seriously" doesn't even get anyway near WP:NPA. This link is not important to anyone but the detractor who created it. Smart has sued several of Bill Huffman's (the site author) ISPs in the past and successfully had them take it offline. He sensibly stopped doing when when he realized obviously that no matter how many times he did that Huffman would just pop it up elsewhere. Only a lawsuit would take it down for good. Smart has posted several times (I will seek out a most recent link) that he lives in Florida while Huffman lives in San Diego California. Making any lawsuit an expensive proposal and probably a pointless one if Huffman only gets a smack on the wrist. Also, Google does not consider it relevant. Thats just semantics. Google is a web crawler and doesn't endorse anything about what it crawls and archives. There is nothing of interest on Smart's website so it does not get as many views. IIRC he only got those domains because someone was squatting on one of them. There is a Usenet post about that somewhere I believe. I refuse to believe that you are pursuing this because of the principle or anything to do with WiKi. Accuse me of being confrontational if you want but there is more going on here with you than meets the eye and this discussion is becoming more and more like the Usenet discussions on Smart. Supreme_Cmdr

144.189.40.222 17:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The site does contain original Usenet posts but that is not the point and is not what the current discussion is about. Aside from the Usenet posts and other material (libelous according to dsmart) there is a wealth of unverifiable material. Anyone wanting to read Usenet posts can go to Google. That is not why the Werewolves site was created. Supreme_Cmdr

Verifiability is also not an issue for external links, as I state below. Anybody wanting to find almost any of the external links we feature on Misplaced Pages articles can find them on Google too. The criteria are notability and relevance. -- Hinotori 20:19, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

That right there is the point isn't it? This WiKi is about Smart. If this were a Bio do you think that this site would even be mentioned other than what is already mentioned in the intro about Smart and his supporters and detractors? The link has no place in this Wiki and you know it. Supreme_Cmdr

PETA, George Bush, and McDonalds don't have a lot in common, but they all seem to accept having inflamatory external links in Misplaced Pages. Is Derek Smart less of a man than George W. Bush? Is 3000AD run as well as McDonalds? Are detractors more obnoxious than meat-eaters? I say No, Yes, and Maybe. These passionate people/organizations and their supporters are able to accept disagreeable/inflamatory external links without feeling a duty to remove such. Their Wiki pages are much older however, perhaps they also had growing pains during their development during which such links were removed.

The Wiki PETA page contains links to http://www.peta-sucks.com/ and http://www.phuckpeta.com/

The Wiki George W. Bush page contains links to http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/ and http://www.michaelmoore.com/

The Wiki McDonalds page contains links to http://www.mcspotlight.org/ and

On the one hand, please do not mistake me for either a "supporter" or "detractor" of Derek Smart. I don't know him, never met him, and have never played his games. He's no one to me. My only concern is that Misplaced Pages articles comply with Misplaced Pages policies. On the other hand, the links to which you refer are not merely one person's gripes page about a specific individual or organization: they contain credible sources, and they represent more than one person's grudge. This "werewolves" site, on the other hand, is merely one person's unverified (and in some cases provably fabricated) complaints. It is irresonsible to include such information in an encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-17 T 19:33 Z

Thanks for taking the time to look this page over, Durova. I forgot to mention on this talk page that I filed an RfC regarding this article here. I still won't change it back for now, preferrably until I get one or two more opinions. If I do so, as a compromise, I'll make the POVness and sketchiness of the site's information more obvious. As for mediation, I made repeated attempts to get BBlackmoor to consider it, including a note on his talk page, but it seems that he's intent on ignoring all such considerations. In all honesty, since the issue is just a singular link (albeit a very important one), I really would rather have tried alternative methods to an RfC, but I didn't see any other option since mediation has to be voluntary by both parties. -- Hinotori 19:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the point of your RfC because the facts of this matter are quite clear. I failed to even see the need for mediation. The question is, do you want dsmart himself to get involved in this and draw attention from the masses of detractors and supporters and turn this into a pointless debate as Usenet once was? I don't know what you have at stake here nor am I going to hazard a guess as to your motivation but its becoming more and more curious to me. Supreme_Cmdr

Alright, let's all take a step back for a moment as this has become exceedingly confrontational (which is partly my own fault, I admit). First of all, I think it's obvious why I'm seeking mediation or outside comment; it's clear there isn't a consensus here regarding the subject at hand. As for whether or not I want Derek Smart or his detractors or his supporters to come in and turn this into a giant flame war, of course I don't. But I do stand by my arguments above. External links do not have to be verifiable; the only relevant test is whether a reader coming across this article would benefit by being aware of its existence. Considering it's the most notable website regarding the topic (as per Google), I think it passes that test. Refer to my examples above: ebaumsworldsucks for ebaumsworld, theforce.net for Star Wars, etc. Misplaced Pages is full of articles with external links that have unverifiable information or a clearly biased POV, and no, you should not take them out, because they're there for relevant reference, not as a source of reliable information. -- Hinotori 19:52, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

"Alright, let's all take a step back for a moment as this has become exceedingly confrontational (which is partly my own fault, I admit)." As far as I can tell, the only person being confrontational is you. For the rest of us, this is simply a matter of compliance with Misplaced Pages policies. If you think we are mistaken, of course, you are welcome to pursue whatever Misplaced Pages conflict resolution mechanism you think is appropriate. -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-13 T 04:16 Z

Well, I'm glad I finally got your attention, even if it took an RfC to do so. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusion that I'm the only one being confrontational seeing as how you were the first to assume that I had a personal grudge against Smart, which is not only false, but also unfounded. But if that's how you see it, then I apologize for somehow giving that impression. I don't know how else I can explain this to you. I've given a number of examples and explained, in detail, why your view of "Misplaced Pages policies" (namely NPOV and verifiability) do not apply to links that are provided in an external link section. If you would, at the least, tell me how my examples and reasoning is wrong, other than saying the same thing repeatedly, I'd be much obliged.

-- Hinotori 06:44, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

"Well, I'm glad I finally got your attention, even if it took an RfC to do so." You didn't "get my attention", and I'm not concerned one way or another about your RFC. If you think an RFC will be productive, you have my blessing. Personally, I don't see the need for it, but I certainly don't object to it. As for "getting my attention", this is more of you being confrontational -- why you want to make editing a Misplaced Pages article into some kind of personal crusade, I have no idea, but it has nothing to do with me. May I suggest that you try to focus less on "challenging" people and "getting their attention", and more on simply contributing relevant, notable, verifiable information to Misplaced Pages? -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-13 T 17:32 Z

Again you're focusing on ME and not my argumentation. Forget me. Address the argumentation and examples as you have yet to do so. -- Hinotori 18:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

"Again you're focusing on ME ..." When we pay attention to your edits and respond specifically to those, you complain that we aren't responding. When we do respond to your needlessly confrontational comments, you complain that we're "focusing on you". I repeat my suggestion that you stop making this a personal crusade, stop trying to provoke some kind of argument, and just focus on contributing good, verifiable content. -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-13 T 20:54 Z

BBlackmoor, as far as I can tell, I've been exceedingly civil to both you and Supreme_Cmdr despite the amount of condescension and assumptions about my integrity thrown my way. I heard you the first thousand times you've told me to focus on contributing "good, verifiable content" whereas you have never, not once in all the muddle on this talk page, addressed my AND others' examples and arguments as to why the policies you're citing simply are not applicable in the external link section of an article in the same way as they are in the rest of the article. If they were, the ebaumsworld article would not have "www.ebaumsworldsucks.com", the PETA page would not have "www.phuckpeta.com", etc etc. I'm just not invested enough to list all the reasons why you're off the mark for the millionth time, but they're all in this talk page, and furthermore, history indicates you'd ignore them even if I did. As far as contributions are concerned, this tool seems to indicate that I have almost twice as many contributions in the article space as you have while you have nearly THREE times as many edits in the talk space. I really wonder who here enjoys confrontation and argumentation more. -- Hinotori 19:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

And here we have, yet again, Hinotori being needlessly confrontational. The purpose of this Talk page is to discuss the article. Discuss the article, Hinotori. -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-17 T 20:28 Z

The RfC was a reasonable move in this situation. I hope you reach agreement. Durova 00:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Whew, maybe it would be a good idea to take a day or two off for cooldown. All this fuss over one link? Durova 01:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Bill Huffman

This is the guy who started this whole Smart business back in 1997 and the person who has the Werewolves site dedicated to ridiculing (I am not citing libel because I cannot make that determination). He works at NCR in San Diego and has had several email addresses over the years.

So who wants to start a page on this guy? It will only paint a perfect picture of a net stalker and if nothing else give another side to this issue. The guy has no other online contribution (as far I can tell) but to Smart. He has been banned from several forums where Smart hangs out because he used to show up there and do the same thing he did on Usenet before Smart stopped posting there several years ago. Here is an example of the sentiments by most of us who have been around since the beginning.

There was even an incident of one of Huffman's followers (some kid named Louis who lived near Smart) stalking Smart in real life. He was arrested and turned out to be a juvenille and even posted that Huffman put him up to it. He has since disappeared. Smart reportedly has to move from his residence after that incident.

There was another incident where Huffman and his followers were attempting to locate the name of Smart's newborn baby. IIRC a police report was also filed for that incident.

There are thousands of posts on Usenet and websites cataloging this guy's behavior. Someone needs to collect all of them. Here are a few.

Supreme_Cmdr 14:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

A Princeton professor weighs in on Smart's credentials
Bill Huffman as net stalker
Bill Huffman on Smart's supposed NPD
Huffman and friends attempt to locate Smart's child
Bill Huffman
The Louis incident
Bill Huffman
POE
QT3
AV

On the subject of things being notable, relevant, and verifiable, if (and I do mean IF) the activities of this Huffman person have been reported in respectable media (per Misplaced Pages guidelines), then I do see a way for Hinotori to include his link: add a section to the Derek Smart article about this Huffman person and his history of stalking Derek Smart, and include Hinotori's link in that section. Or perhaps give Huffman his own article on Misplaced Pages, and provide a link to it from the Derek Smart article. If this information on Huffman is verifiable, that would be a permitted way to include the "information" that Hinotori wants included. -- BBlackmoor , 2006-01-13 T 17:06 Z

In all honesty, I considered researching and writing a section on this, but eschewed the idea because I figured that would draw MORE opposition. Perhaps this would be a workable compromise. -- Hinotori 18:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Out of Town for Four Days

I'm going to be gone for about four days. So if I don't respond to any comments here or on my talk page, that's the reason why. In the meantime, I would be happy if either Bblackmoor or Supreme_Cmdr would carefully consider the examples and arguments I provided. Good editting and fair days. Cheers. -- Hinotori 18:28, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal request

Hello, I'm Nicholas Turnbull, mediator and coordinator down at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal. A request for us to mediate has recently been made regarding an ongoing link dispute on this article. The Mediation Cabal request page is here:

Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-01-12 Derek Smart external link

I would be exceptionally grateful if any interested parties who are involved in the dispute would please review the mediation request and comment as appropriate at the mediation page in the "Responses by involved parties" section, indicating whether or not you would wish to enter into mediation and, if possible, any suggestions on what you would consider to be an ideal goal of the mediation to be. Remember, this process is entirely voluntary, and you won't be subject to any disciplinary action for either participating or refusing to do so, so you don't need to feel forced to do anything. If you require any assistance relating to this dispute, please feel free to contact me; I am entirely at your service. Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Another Mediation Cabal Request

I have today made a formal request for mediation. Hopefully this farce will be resolved once and for all. Supreme_Cmdr 16:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

External Links Propriety

I added the following on the Misplaced Pages External Links Page on January 20th - no response yet.:

"foe sites Does the prescription of ok-to-add for fan sites apply to also Foe sites? By Foe sites I mean a site which has negative views of the subject of the article.

As a specific case, is it allowed to include the link A collection of materials by detractors dedicated to criticism of Derek Smart in the article http://en.wikipedia.org/Derek_Smart ?

Arguments for are that it is the number one site for a google query of the article's subject and that it contains a large amount of information.

Does a high google page rank for a search reflect its notability?

Arguments against are that the information is mainly usenet posts and private emails and is therefore non-verifiable and also that the author seems like an internet stalker.

Does non-verifiability disqualify an external link.

Note that the Werewolves site is very one-sided and consists mainly of excerpts (with headers) of usenet posting and private emails with the site author's comments and conclusions. The conclusions do appear (to me at least) to follow from the referenced postings, except perhaps for the author's attempt at psychoanalysis.

Note, this specific instance was under mediation until one of the participants withdrew with no consensus, but a general opinion on the propriety of external links to foesites would be appreciated. And requirements that would qualify/disqualify a site from being and external link would be appreciated.

"Fan sites: On articles about topics with many fansites, including a link to one major fansite is appropriate, marking the link as such. In extreme cases, a link to a web directory of fansites can replace this link. " "

I have just been reading Bblackmoor's page and I have to say that I couldn't agree more. Supreme_Cmdr 18:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Slo-mo revert war

Seems to be more reverting than discussing here, at any rate. I've had a glance at the disputed link, and it does seem to be a) highly uncomplimentary, and b) the top-ranked hit on this person, pipping this very article to that signal honour. Would a more guarded description of this link and its contents be of any use to anyone? Is there still a consensus to include it, given the last two comments seem to be against doing so? And, no more breaking the WP:3RR, please -- fair warning to all parties. Alai 07:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The people advocating its inclusion are the ones engaged in the revert war. There is no consensus either way, other than to point to the Wiki rules which clearly go against its inclusion as non-verifiable material. Even the recent revisions I made were due to unverifiable comments. People are using his Wiki page as their personal soapbox. Supreme_Cmdr 16:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

What can I do to get you to address the fact that verifiabilty policies don't apply to external links?

• Verifiabilty policies don't apply to external links.
• Verifiabilty policies don't apply to external links.
• Verifiabilty policies don't apply to external links.

"The people advocating its inclusion are the ones engaged in the revert war?" How exactly would it be a revert WAR if only one side was engaged? I normally NEVER revert multiple times per day except for obvious vandalism, the only reason I reverted 3 times on the one day was that I suspected you would unapologetically roll right over the 3RR limit. I was right, by the way.

I assure you, this page is not my soapbox. Take a look at the top of this talk page, the FIRST comment is me, after I had done some early rewriting (here's the diff here: ) and had started NPOVing the article and watching the article for vandalism. Let me assure you, the vandalism I was reverting was not PRO-Smart vandalism, there's been a remarkably low volume of that.

When BB, who I've worked with amicably on at least one other conflict, had issues with the soda machine story, we were able to come up with a good compromise that we both were happy with and was within policy. You have no interest in working with anyone else, you want to be this page's dictator. Heck, the only reason I even still CARE about this issue is that I don't respond well to dictators.

Fox1 (talk) 20:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

1) As far as I can tell, Fox1 is absolutely right. The only one here who has broken WP:3RR is Supreme_Cmdr.

2) I think it's safe to say that the amount of discussion on this topic has been extensive. A close reading of the arguments provided show that Fox1's and my arguments are never actually refuted.

3) I'm not sure which two comments you're referring to, but, as far as I can tell, the only person still arguing for the removal of the link is Supreme_Cmdr. On the other hand, the Mediation Cabal case yielded a sizable majority, including two uninvolved administrators, in favor of the link's inclusion. I'd be more than willing to make the description for the link more reserved regarding its contents, if that will get us all to agree on this matter.

- Hinotori 08:53, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Cmdr's Complaints

This Derek Smart entry is another fine example of why Misplaced Pages is a social failure by all accounts and for all intent and purposes. Anybody can post whatever they like and even when the info is vetted and corrected, they can just go back and revert to the old incorrect items. People are just adding in anything they like in this entry and this revert war is never going to end.

1)The first BC3K game never had multiplayer and there never was any multiplayer touted for that game. There is no evidence ANYWHERE on the Net that multiplayer was ever mentioned for that game. The first Smart game to ever have multiplayer was Battlecruiser Millennium Gold which was released MANY years later.

2)The criticisms of the game's interface is subjective and opinionated; and should not be regarded as fact. Especially when you consider the size of the install base that keeps buying his games. That opinion has no basis in the Wiki entry and is against the guidelines.

3)There are no credible sources ANYWHERE on the Net where Smart has been challenged about his degree or lackof. The people who have engaged in that particular brand of attack are the same detractors who propagated the long running flame war on the Usenet. They are hardly credible and considered as reliable sources. Especially when you consider that the Weresolves site run by a notorious Derek Smart stalker and detractor is the only site on the entire Internet that has any mention of it.

4)Universal Combat A World Apart was not published by Dreamcatcher. It was published by 3000AD, Inc and several online digital download sites such as Direc2Drive, Digital River, BMT Micro etc.

Supreme_Cmdr 22:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, here.

1) Fine, let's get a cite before that gets added again.

2) Yes, it is, but we're not claiming the criticism is true, just that it existed and was quite widespread. As for that "install base" gibberish, you've already made it abundantly clear that you can't tell Wiki policy from a hole in the ground, and this original research commentary gives even more proof.

3) Waah.

4) Fine, change it. Let me warn you, though, if you do it in the same edit as yet another of your completely non-census rollbacks, it'll probably get caught in the revert.

Heck, the only reason I'm responding is that points 1 and 4 have more relevant suggestions than pretty much anything you've ever said here. For the most part we all just ignore you and revert, at this point. I warned you that's what your tactics would bring.

(Don't expect me to continue discussion with you on points 2 and 3, by the way, it's not worth my time and you aren't saying anything new).

Fox1 (talk) 02:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me. Reverting to versions that are neutral takes all of one minute. So lets continue doing it in perpetuity. And nobody asked you to respond. So you're not doing anyone any favors. You're so full of it.

Supreme_Cmdr 13:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to see this come to an end. Fox1, what is the proper course to deal with this user? He has repeatedly violated 3RR and suggests here to be ready to continue doing so. I know Hinotori mentioned going to Arbitration here, but that did not happen (I think he went on a break shortly afterwards). Referring to dispute resolution guidelines, it appears due diligence has gone into the effort to bring this to a close. Is this ready to go to ArbCom? - Chris 13:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, reporting the 3RR is a good idea, builds a good basis for arbcom, if someone chooses to go that route. Plus, if someone does it repeatedly there's a good chance of getting a mod to throw a block on them.

As for arbitration... meh, I'm not sure it's worth the effort. Arbcom is quite a production, and Cmdr's one-man war isn't getting him much of anywhere. His preferred version stays up for, what, maybe 5% of any given week, if not significantly less? I certainly won't advise you NOT to go to Arbcom, but I'm not in a position to offer much help, time-wise.

Fox1 (talk) 02:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Good article demotion

I am removing the good article tag from this article because it wasn't properly nominated. Please renominate it if you would like it to become a good article (instructions are available at the nomination page).

Cedars 08:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Legal threats against FS2 Community

I do not feel it would be appropriate for me to add this as I was a direct participant of this piece of history. Derek Smart was considering acquiring the rights to FreeSpace 2 and came into our forums at Hard Light Productions (then hosted on 3dap, not at hard-light.net) and asked us about it - he got a resounding "NO!" from the community and then became hostile. He made baseless legal threats at my project The Ferrium Project (now defunct) and to the FreeSpace 2: Source Code Project (http://scp.indiegames.us). Feel free to email me for any and all details - slashdot article: http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/17/0533221, my email address is thekazanNOSPAN at gmail DOT com - here are direct links to my slashdot posts on the subject -

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=114794&cid=9724898 (many of the AC comments are suspected to be none other than Derek Smart in his flaming greatness) Lordkazan 15:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

None of this bears any relevance to this page. And dsmart does not post anon or under different aliases. I was on the old Avault forum where most of you were banned because you took your vendetta over there and proceeded to harrass him because you felt that you somehow were entitled to the Freespace IP when in fact none of you have done anything worthwhile with it.

The comment in the /. thread you pointed to is spot on. But of course if anyone says anything positive about dsmart or his games, you all assume that it is him. Despite the fact that his followers (judging by his games' popularity and sales) vastly outnumber you vehement detractors and net stalkers.

Fact is he did not threaten legal action. He merely said that if he got the license, that he would not allow anyone in the open source project to continue proliferating the licensed name and that he didn't need any of your help because he wasn't at all impressed with what you folks had done with the freeware source code that was released. Like with all things on the Net, most of you feel that you can disregard IP rights and are up in arms each time an IP holder enforces or attempts to enforce it.

Posting about this non-issue in his Wiki is just another example of what most of you do, whereby you stalk him across the net and any opportunity that you find to harrass him is open season. Then when he responds, you all go up in arms like the whiny children.

Supreme_Cmdr 13:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Original Research claims

This:

What is interesting about this is that there is no way any person - let alone a game reviewer - can tell by just playing a game, what sort of AI principle is used. Further, Smart is not the only developer (or publisher) who protects their product source code which is in fact where the value of the IP is. Publishers only have access to source code if they have rights to said code. Smart owns the rights to his entire IP and is under no obligation (legal or otherwise) to reveal it to anyone.

And this:

Neural Net or not, his games are mostly heralded for their advanced AI, high replayability value and open endedness.

Need citations. Ehheh 18:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• Furthermore, not all of the citations in those recent edits actually claim what they are used to support. For example, this sentence:

There have been many articles written about Smart's AI...

refers to a URL that contains two short paragraphs plus a letter from Derek Smart. That's hardly "many articles" by any stretch of the imagination. Nandesuka 13:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I can locate all of them. But what you will do is just remove them. Similar to your whole edit reverts. So, it is pointless. Supreme_Cmdr 16:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles require reliable sources. If you can not or will not provide reliable sources for disputed claims, then don't bother editing. Nandesuka 18:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• Last, the editorial addition to the werewolves.org link is probably a violation of WP:NLT. Nandesuka 13:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it is not. I checked. There are other Wiki pages with much worse. Supreme_Cmdr 16:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

"Another Misplaced Pages page sucks" is not an excuse for polluting this article with your personal opinions. Nandesuka 18:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• I still have to see a respected authority on game reviewing or programming claim that Smarts games have "Advanced AI as he claims" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.247.245.40 (talk • contribs) 08:39, 22 July, 2006 (UTC).

• It is certainly possible for a expert game reviewer to identify what sort of AI is been used in a game based on response times, the hardware requirements needed to run the game, and established AI patterns used in games so far. BC3000AD Claimed to use Neural networks for every object (NPC, enemy ships etc), which is highly improbable given the number of nets that have to be simulated (hundreds) and the relatively modest hardware requirements at that time (486's etc).

Complete nonsense. That is all I have to say. You're obviously not a programmer nor a reviever and are just using this talk page as a forum soapbox. Even an elementary and unexperienced programmer or reviewer will take one look at your statement and die laughing. Supreme_Cmdr 16:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Mediation request

Hi, I am not the official mediator, but I will try to help. You may wish to appeal to a broader community for input by asking at the Village pump, posting a Wikiquette alert, or filing a Request for Comment. --Ideogram 22:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Please remember to stay civil; comment on the content and not the contributor. --Ideogram 22:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Newsgroups

Can anyone quote policy or guidelines as to the usefulness of newsgroup articles for citations? I see comments like this, but I don't necessarily agree. I'd really like to reach some consensus on the Werewolves/Huffman thing and would like to try to write a good, neutral section on this. However, without usenet cites, I doubt there'd be much to say. - Chris 18:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Here you are. Ehheh 19:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunate. Lots of source material there. - Chris 23:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite

Ok, this is what happens when I get called away on business?

That was... absolutely off the wall, there was nary a source to be seen in that stew of accusation and use of words like "reported" and "single-handedly." I was actually going to suggest that perhaps the werewolves link could be turned into a section in the article going over the various back-and-forth controversies, but there is no way that that's going to happen without legitimate sourcing.

Cmdr, I was going to send you back a talk page message when I returned, I was really hopeful that you were honest in wanting to work on this amicably and within policy, but this just looks like a give an inch, take a mile situation.

Seriously, if you're honestly interested in working within policy, make a draft of this section in a subpage in your userspace and find sources. Don't place 6 paragraphs of unsourced assertion in the article and see if it'll slip by, that doesn't show much integrity.

Fox1 (talk) 00:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Please try to be patient and assume good faith. It may take a while to explain the Misplaced Pages policy on reliable sources and verifiability. --Ideogram 01:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Duly noted, while I would point out that this has been going on in a fairly circular fashion for quite some time, I left my initial, short-tempered response here and my calmer one on a user talk page. I probably should have restricted myself to the latter.

Fox1 (talk) 02:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

One would assume good faith if the track record of this page weren't rife with this type of editing. A reading of Cmdr's most recent changes reads like both a screed against Huffman and a fawning puff piece on Smart. This is completely against wiki's guidelines. Much as he might like to, SupremeCmdr (who is so obviously Derek Smart it's not funny) cannot change history. Fox1 was completely justified in his revert of that ridiculous edit. Doggie Yum Yums 13:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

No revert warring please

Please try to avoid making the disputed edits during the mediation. Simply reverting back and forth is not productive. If someone else reverts, do not respond in kind. --Ideogram 17:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Protected

Because of the ongoing edit war here, this page has been protected. Please work out your disputes here, using a temporary page if necessary as rough space, and then either leave me a message or request unprotection at WP:RFPP. Stifle (talk) 20:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Request for arbitration

A request for arbitration has been made. Supreme_Cmdr 20:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

This will almost certainly be rejected, and if it is accepted will take several months. I suggest you try to work out your differences without it. --Ideogram 20:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Flame War

Supreme Commander (and the Derek Smart article since its inception) have stated that the usenet Flame War should be part of the article. Supreme Commander has linked numerous times (including today) to the April 21, 2001 issue of Computer Gaming World that contains an interview with Smart. In the article Smart states: "Sometimes when I get online, and it's quiet, and I see something that attracts my attention, I'll post just to piss these guys off. That's why I do it. Because I'm in a good mood that day, I go in there and I start trouble."

Why does Supreme Commander believe that including that direct quot (from a source that he himself uses)is either: "unsourced", "erroneous" or "false commentary"

I believe that Smart's explanation of his side of the Flame War is neutral, verifiable, and meets all the other good Misplaced Pages criteria.

Why do you believe differently Supreme Commander?

That information is completely out of context.

The dispute on this page has to do with the inclusion of the Werewolves link which - apart from being created by a known Smart detractor (Bill Huffman) - contains unsourced material and which cannot be considered to be factual or unedited. The previous edit waring was over the inclusion of that link.

As a compromise, several of us decided that until it is unequivocally deemed to be sourced, that it would be included but with the creation of a section on Bill Huffman in order to clearly put it into perspective. It has already been stated and verified that linking to anything that contains unsourced material is the same as cutting and pasting the material directly. For that reason, the Werewolves link cannot be allowed according to Wiki guidelines. At this point, only arbitration will decide that.

As to the CGW article. It was an article on Derek Smart. The flame war just happened to be mentioned in it. Further, he never said anything about starting a flame war. The inference is that because whenever he posts these people jump on him, he tends to post just to piss them off. He has that right. Your point - if there ever was one - is moot. That article does not say anything about who is responsible for the flame wars. Verily that article came about many years after the flame war was started back in 1997 and had all but died down by then.

>> Verily that article came about many years after the flame war was started back in 1997 and had >> all but died down by then.

The article you linked to disagrees with you - have you read it?

The article begins:

"What started out as the dream of a lone, unknown programmer mushroomed into the longest, mots savage, and most ridiculous flame war this industry has ever seen, with Smart as much at fault as anyone else, and five years after BATTLECRUISER's release, the game is not completely dead. Type Derek Smart's name into an Internet search engine, and you'll see strands of it all over ... Any thread that Derek Smart appears in, regardless of the original topic, devolves into a Derek Smart flame war."

Later in the article Smart states: "Sometimes when I get online, and it's quiet, and I see something that attracts my attention, I'll post just to piss these guys off. That's why I do it. Because I'm in a good mood that day, I go in there and I start trouble."

The article continues:

"But why Derek, why" why bait the guys who have tormented you so relentlessly?" and finishes: "You wanna take on Derek Smart? go ahead. Make his day. He's waiting for you."

This obviously pertains to the flame war, in Smart's own words, with a link that you have provided. Are you actually suggesting that permission is needed to include a quote from Computer Gaming World? Are you claiming that the quote is non-neutral, non-verifiable or that adding Smart's opinion about the Flame War on a Misplaced Pages entry about Derek Smart is unacceptable.

When you cut and pasted that line you did so without permission and also where you posted it puts the issue out of context. You might as well go on Usenet and post over eight million (!) posts which document the flame war; the majority of which are not Smart's posts.

Supreme_Cmdr 20:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

>> When you cut and pasted that line you did so without permission

Permission from who?

1997 = "early nineties"?

The article currently states "...starting the Great Flame Wars of the early nineties back in 1997." How can 1997 be considered the early nineties?

Working version

Here is my current commentary on needed changes.

I would note that the most urgent change is that we need to work from the old version of the "other issues" section, the current section is just about irrepairable.

Please respond, here, on the user page, or create your own.

As the Supreme Commander has made no objections here, I think we should put back the http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Derek_Smart&oldid=66197094 version

Fox1 (talk) 20:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I object. The currently protected version is just fine. And the page should remain protected until the arbitration process decides the outcome. Any revert at this point will lead to the same problem, as is evident by this anon person (see below) demonstrates. Supreme_Cmdr 13:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I too second fox's suggestion. Anyway the current wikipedia page on smart should be changed, it looks like a gloryfication and masturbatory excess by one of Smart's lackys and is no way indicative of a biography. The reason for all of this problems is that Smart has behaved badly in the past calling users four letter words and other obsceneties as a google groups search would show, and now that he is more mature he is trying to deny that fact that he posted and hence all the controversy. For example take the article about Smart versus Huffman, it mentions that huffman got a kid to stalk smart, but nowhere is a source cited, which makes that whole chapter doubious.

This is just a fine example of why this page is locked. As to the stalking incident, it is widely known. Do your own research. Even police records exist and Smart posted them on his website at one point. I am going to contact him to see if I can locate it, but the link to it exists on Usenet and via one of the Google links here on this Talk page in the Huffman section. Supreme_Cmdr 13:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Stalking is a serious allegation and since Derek Smart/Supreme_cmdr has not submitted any conclusive proof of such a incident occuring this must be removed from the wikipedia, otherwise the wiki can be even sued.

Several Other errors which must be corrected... 1. "Bill Huffman is responsible for single handedly starting the Great Flame Wars of the early nineties" Bill Huffman was certainly a significant contributor to the wars, but it is a exaggeration to say that he started single handedly the flame wars. Derek Smarts contributions too helped to fuel the war, when he calls people "f@ck you" naturally it will cause a volatile situation. 2. Most of the statements in the huffman vs Smart section are not substantiated, like "smart supposedly had to move his house", the whole section should be rewritten or removed.

The current page is completely biased towards smart and does not have a neutral point of view so it should be reedited.

Was the request for protection based on a fib?

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_page_protection&diff=prev&oldid=66224209 Derek Smart (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)==== + Will someone please add full protection to the Derek Smart page please? For many months now it has been the target of edit waring and it doesn't seem to be getting any better; especially with the anons. The latest edit I did is the most current based on recent revisions by most of us editing that page. Supreme_Cmdr 20:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

While the latest edit is the "most current" by definition, it in no way represents any agreement or consensus and clearly adds a big chunk of unsupported and un-verified text.

It in no way reflects "recent revisions by most of us editing that page" and to claim so is dishonest.

Being protected in no way endorses the current version of the page, as noted in the protection notice. It simply prevents edit-warring. --Ideogram 16:34, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand that - but the request does demonstrate the a certain believe of a truth that does not agree with reality. It is difficult to reach a consensus when one of the participants believes that something they posts represents "most of us editing the page" when it obviously does not.

You may wish to appeal to a broader community for input by asking at the Village pump, posting a Wikiquette alert, or filing a Request for Comment. The only alternative to seeking consensus is to file a Request for Arbitration. The Arbitration Committee generally does not accept content disputes and even if they do the process will take months. --Ideogram 17:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we're all able to read the notice clearly posted on the front page; no, the lock is not an endorsement of the current version. The concern, however, is that the lock was immediately placed without, as far as I can tell, any oversight or even cursory examination of the page's history. I had never been under the impression that an unquestioned lock was that easy to obtain. Neither does it seem terribly fair to place an apparently indefinite lock on a page, reply to all concerns with "this is not an endorsement" and give no avenues to remove the lock other than "concensus" when only one editor even endorses the current version. I understand that a simple majority is not concensus, but neither is one vocal dissenter a lack of concensus.

This conflict has been occurring for months, the first mediation request led nowhere, a mediator left, I believe, one message and was never heard from again, and we have had great difficulty getting any other moderating input. The only timely response this page has received has been the exceptionally speedy lock.

Fox1 (talk) 23:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Organized discussion

Let's try to organize the discussion.

Please list below each problem with the current locked version. Once we have the list of problems we can discuss acceptable alternatives. If necessary we can have straw polls to assess which alternatives have the most support. --Ideogram 17:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the comments placed here as they were not productive. Please remember to be civil; comment on the content and not the contributor.

Now, let's try again. Please list specific content problems and suggestions for correcting them. Please sign your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your comment. You may also push the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --Ideogram 22:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, it would appear that giving my comments and concerns their own heading did not make them obvious enough.

Again, Here are my issues and suggestions.

Fox1 (talk) 23:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Supreme_Cmdr, please respond to the criticism Fox1 has written of your version. Fox1, it would help if you could propose a rewrite that addresses your concerns. --Ideogram 00:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been busy this past week traveling. I will go over Fox1's rewrite now and make suggestions. At least we've established two things: (1) USENET is not a reliable source and as such any/all Usenet postings should be removed (2) random websites e.g. the much contested Werewolves site where Huffman hosts his page, is not considered a reliable source. This is what sparked the original fracas to begin with. It took several admins to make this clear to Fox1 et al. Supreme_Cmdr 14:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

As has been repeatedly pointed out, an external link is not the same thing as a source. Many links that can not be used as sources are still acceptable for use as external links. In fact, the reason we have external links is to point readers at information that can't be on wikipedia itself for one reason or another. Ehheh 15:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't see what the point of the Werewolves link is. Can anyone explain to me why this external link should be included? --Ideogram 15:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

With regard to Smart not proving to the satisfaction of his critics regarding the genuineness of his Ph.d, there is no one source, USENET archives of Smart's postings show him to initially vigourously defend the genuineness of his Ph.d albeight inconsistently, he later admitted that it was from a degree mill, he still justified putting the letters Ph.D

220.247.250.178 01:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

This will be my last post to an anon. If you spend so much time typing up all this, you should be able to register like everyone else. Or are you afraid that with a registered a/c it would be that much easier to ban you?

Anyway, Smart has always defended his Ph.D. There is no proof that it does not exist. If anything, given his high profile nature and number of publishing deals, his previous work experience in the IT industry, it is not unlikely that he would have been outed by now if it was in fact invalid. Its not like his Ph.D, or lackof, is the industry's best kept secret. From my understanding of the Usenet rhetoric, he claims to have a Ph.D. A lot of people believe him. He confided in several people about it, including a Princeton professor (who is himself a public figure). There is a link about this somewhere in the Huffman section of this talk page. He says that he completed his degree via distance learning. Which in itself is not unheard of or farfetched. The only email which Huffman posted and claimed to have come from someone, was declared fake and doctored (as was Huffman's claim that Smart doctored a rascist email which he vigorously denies). That email showed Smart admitting that his degree was from an unaccredited institution. Huffman, despite several arguments to the contrary, immediately took upon himself to cite that since it was unaccredited, that it must be from a degree mill. He even took his fight to the alt.distance forums where he was promptly labeled a kook and sent packing. He then surfaced at another forum where online degrees were being discussed. He was warned by the moderators to not bring any of his Smart nonsense there. Those links were all posted on Usenet. When I find time, I will dig them up and link them to this posting.

So, thats how it all started. Even the email which Huffman claims to have received, didn't say anything about where the degree had come from. Huffman simply used the degree mill argument to further fuel his attack on Smart.

The bottom line is that back in the flamewar days, the detractors (of which I am almost 100% certain this anon person is one, due to his posts, insults etc) would latch onto anything to discredit and/or character assasinate him. The cited CGW article visited Smart and wrote that article based on the popularity of those flame wars. NOWHERE in that article did they - or any credible news source for that matter - claim that Smart did or did not have a valid Ph.D.

In fact, Huffman and co even went on to say that Smart may not possess any degree of any kind and did not finish high school. Those claims are not only dubious but given the nature of the man's work and his industry shenanigans any fool with half a brain will take one look and move on. That was the very nature of the flamewar. There was unfounded and unproveable accusations flying every which way and anything and everything was game. It was a mess. Smart, who never ran into a fight he didn't like back then, fully engaged. That only served to fan the flames. Once he resigned Usenet in 1999, the whole thing just died. Thats why they started following (stalking) him on forums where he had taken to posting. Once the flamewars erupted there, those following him were banned. Smart himself was banned from one such site (QT3) because he got into an argument with a moderator over the banning of another member. His banning had nothing to do with Huffman. Huffman was banned there for disrupting the site and provoking Smart, despite several warnings. This has happened on several forums.

Another example of Huffman's operation. On his Werewolves site, he even goes on to say that Smart suffers from NPD. Without access to Smart's medical records, isn't that libel? So, how can anyone even remotely take Huffman's site seriously or use it as a reliable source when in fact the majority of the entries are based on one detractor posting libelous material and material which may have been tampered with in order to portray the detractor's intent?

Supreme_Cmdr

I don't think debates over whether Smart has a PhD are necessary for this article. We really don't have any verifiable sources on this one way or another. Also I don't think it is productive to talk about Huffman. If all of Huffman's claims were made on USENET and his website we can't reference any of them. It is probably best to ignore everything said by Huffman unless someone can find a quote in a reliable source. --Ideogram 15:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly! This is what this debate has been about all these months. The revert war caused one ] user] to just leave in disgust. The detractors want it in because it suits their purpose. All it does is libel and character assassinate Smart. Nothing more. Nothing less. Also, most of the items were also determined to be fake, doctored or patently libelous (e.g. claims that he suffers from NPD). Supreme_Cmdr 17:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately USENET is not considered a reliable source by Misplaced Pages. --Ideogram 03:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If USENET is not considered a reliable source, then everything related to smarts flame wars should be removed as the references are not reliable. Taking this to a extreme one can argue that Smart was never involved in any flame war in the first place as anyone could have posted as Smart.

Going through the Linus Torvalds article on wikipedia one sees "Linus publicized his creation on the USENET newsgroup comp.os.minix.", so why is USENET considered a reliable source for Torvalds and not for Smart. Someone masquarading as Torvalds may have posted that original request for kernel help.

The point I am stressing is that under some circumstances, like Smart's flame war's USENET will have to be considered a reliable source, for example the above link showing Smart defending his allegations against his Ph.d should be considered genuine unless Smart himself claims otherwise, when the matter can be given due consideration. If USENET is not considered reliable, remove every link to the flame wars, huffman, etc. 220.247.250.178 04:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the difference between the two scenarios is that it would be against policy to simply take the information directly from USENET into the article, but if Random PC Magazine, a hypothetical valid secondary source, stated that Torvalds did such and such on USENET, we could then include it based on that source. This would be analgous to a situation where a statement made by a person could not be included based on the blog of someone in attendance, but could be included if the blog was quoted by CNN (with a comment saying "reported by CNN").

Honestly, though, my recent perusals through Misplaced Pages:Reliable Sources have left me less than impressed with the guidelines, and, frankly, I think a huge number of WP article would find themselves gutted if those rules were rigorously enforced.

Fox1 (talk) 06:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Consider this, we all know that the Flame Wars happened and that Smart was a major contributor. If we are not allowed to cite USENET reports then what are we supposed to source to backup those claims. Logic fails me as to how for wikipedia to accept something on the USENET, another person has to comment that. Say in Smarts case one magazine says that Smart never was involved in the flame wars and all the posts were by someone out to harm smarts reputation, then this will be gospel truth and entitled to be used in the wiki. USENET was a part of hacker culture and to call it unverifiable is not quite correct. Say someone as famous as George Bush posts regurlarly on USENET under his own name and title and no one questions his credentials then, what he said on the USENET should be taken as true. If USENET is a unverifiable source, then ALL the references to Huffman should be removed too, so this article is in need of a urgent re-edit.

My interpretation of the policy is that we can say "Derek Smart was involved in flame wars on USENET" but we can't actually refer to any posts from USENET to verify statements made in the article.

I believe that the quote the direct Derek Smart quote from Computer Gaming World "Sometimes when I get online, and it's quiet, and I see something that attracts my attention, I'll post just to piss these guys off. That's why I do it. Because I'm in a good mood that day, I go in there and I start trouble." is relevent to the flaming section. weighs in

My opinion is that we can use Computer Gaming World as a source. Now quit reverting the article. --Ideogram 18:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, please sign your posts with ~~~~. --Ideogram 08:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Supreme_cmdr alias Derek Smart makes the following allegation "Bill Huffman is responsible for single handedly starting the Great Flame Wars of the early nineties back in 1997", now we should be able to quote the USENET to substantiate that claim, or else it should be removed altogether. Derek Smart himself was such a prolific contributor that he too should take the credit/blame for the flame wars. 124.43.232.74 08:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Folks,

Firstly, I have unprotected the page as there seems to be a decent discussion going on. If you (defined as anyone who has edited the page this month) continue the sterile revert war, you will be blocked for disruption.

Secondly. We have a guideline called Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons which deals explicitly with a lot of the issues that have come up here. In particular, it is not acceptable to add defamatory or critical material without citing strong and reliable sources. Newsgroup postings, random websites, and the like are most assuredly not reliable. If you insert a critical comment, you are expected to put a nice big and exact reference with almost that exact wording right next to it.

Thank you. That right there solves the issue of the hotly contested Werewolves link. I have now removed it from the article. Supreme_Cmdr 14:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone went and put it back in. Since that person is anon, I can only guess that the person is using a dynamic IP faker. I have once again removed it. This is exactly how this page devolved. Now they're claiming some sort of imaginary consensus and ignoring the Wiki guidelines for reliable sources. Supreme_Cmdr 17:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If Supreme_cmdr is in fact Mr. Smart, then I recommend he reads WP:AUTO before proceeding with further edits. Stifle (talk) 10:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence that Supreme_cmdr is Derek Smart so I strongly recommend that no one make these allegations again. --Ideogram 11:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I have said several times that I am not Smart. I have contacted him several times about this page and for clarification about certain things and he has expressed that he wants nothing to do with it. The last email I sent him was for a link to the police reports on the LouisJM stalking incident. I have yet to hear from him. Supreme_Cmdr 14:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The werewolves site is not a random site, in fact a google search for derek smart returns 6,490,000 results with the werewolves site ranked the 3rd. So the werewolves site cannot be considered a random site, and should and can be used as reference so the link should be there. Obviously it is diffcult to prove that anyone is so and so, Ideogram can be even George Bush, but unless he says so we will never have proof. However consider the following facts which will lend credibility to the fact that supreme_cmdr is infact derek smart, 1. Supreme_cmdr is the alias that smart has used for a long time on the 3000ad forums. 2. THe only edits that Supreme_cmdr has done are with regard to Smarts bio and the universal combat games. 3. All his edits have been glorifying Smart, and removing all ngative views on Smart. He will us the wik guidlines tohis advantage only.

The fact that the Werewolves site shows up 3rd in a Google search doesn't make it a reliable source. Reliable sources are those with a reputation for fact-checking, like textbooks, peer-reviewed journals and major newspapers.

It is not productive to continue debating whether Supreme_Cmdr is Derek Smart. You are never going to prove it, and even if you could, so what? That wouldn't change the fact that USENET postings and most websites are not considered reliable sources by Misplaced Pages. This accusation and debate is a complete waste of time and if you insist on bringing it up again I will advise everyone to ignore you. --Ideogram 16:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Weasel Words

I removed the weasel words tag from the main page as the disputed section was moved to talk

Can someone explain why the Weasel Word tag is still on the main page?

Do not edit-war

I remind you that edit-warring will get you blocked and the page likely protected again. --Ideogram 17:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I urge you to please remove the Werewolves link and full protect this page until further notice. As you can see, the anons are at it again, making any/all discussions a waste of time.

Supreme_Cmdr 17:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not an admin, and whichever admin protects the page will not pass judgement by removing the link first. Both of you ought to stop reverting, it doesn't matter which version temporarily is visible. I presume both of you are aware of the Three-revert rule; that will at least slow you down. Reverting is a waste of time, when you realize that, we can continue the discussion.--Ideogram 18:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I remind you both that "The three-revert rule is not an entitlement"; if either of you makes three reverts tomorrow I can and will get you blocked for violating the rule. Now, who wants to discuss? --Ideogram 18:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Son of a b-... This page is doomed to revert-war, isn't it? Cmdr, the entire other issues section is out, and you're still going all 3RR over one external link and the weasel words tag? Are you completely incapable of letting anything go, even for a moment? You're also misrepresenting several things:

• Your statement that the link has been shown to be unreliable "by an admin" is a false appeal to authority. Read Misplaced Pages:Administrators, admins perform maintenance and other administrative tasks (hence why Stifle did not have any discretion over which version of the page to lock) and do not sit in judgement on content disputes. On content matters, they are no more authoritative that other (very experienced) editors.
• You can't request a lock every time you refuse to compromise, nor can locks be placed on any page indefinitely. There is also no provision to lock pages "until arbitration," the page is going to be open to editting most of the time, get used to it.
• I'm sure you have other interests besides BC3K and its sequels, why not go do some edits, however minor, to some other, non-controversial topics? You'd have much better luck getting things done on pages like this if you learn more about WP as a whole (ok, my own experience goes a ways to disprove this, but it still sounds like good advice).

As for the Anon(s), I realize you think we're on the same "side," but this really isn't helpful. It's time to have a real, substantive conversation about the contents of this page, and that's not going to happen if we're too busy with reeverts. That said, I am partial to the idea of leaving the link in while we talk, simply because Cmdr has failed to compromise on a single sentence thus far, and him getting absolutely everything he wants doesn't seem to be raising his level of discourse any.

Fox1 (talk) 19:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanyou for the suggestion. I stopped making any changes after Supreme_Cmdr's 4th revert today.

Why am I not surprised about these comments? This is your usual rhetoric. You did the same thing with BBlackmoor when he didn't agree with you, Hintori and others.

Fact is, that link started it all. It is now 100% decided that since it not sourced material, it cannot stand.

The "Other Issues" section you are now working on, I created in order to give a neutral opinion on the whole Bill Huffman/Werewolves page if we were to allow the link to remain. Until then, it was a one sided argument.

You have now removed it. There is no point in putting that section (regardless of how many edits you do btw) back in because the offending - and violating link - is now gone and according to an admin, should remain gone since it does not meet with the Wiki guidelines as a reliable source.

This is the argument BBlackmoor, myself and others have been having with you and yours for so many months. It had to take my having the page locked, requesting arbitration etc, to draw attention to the page and what you folks were doing to it. Now you're just upset because the Wiki rules have been thrust in your face and you have no recourse but to abide by them. Had you and your friends actually followed the rules, this would never have continued and gone this far. To the extent that in chasing you folks around, I got myself caught in 3RR when I wasn't paying attention.

Supreme_Cmdr 19:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

For the love of christ, what are you even talking about? What?! What did I "do to BBlackmoor?" He was a good editor and I had worked with him on other pages before, amiably, and had a decent working relationship. Are you even literate? I just posted four paragraphs with the sole purpose of giving you some (apparently much-needed) pointers on WP, and, despite the fact that nowhere in my comment did I attempt to argue with you about content, you're still going off on your paranoid screed without responding to a goddamned thing I actually said.

I have held out olive branch after olive branch, I have proposed compromises and tried to discuss things with you, and I get the same "I requested mediation, I reverted, I know WP policy better than anyone here, you killed BBlackmoor's dog, you're in an elaborate conspiracy with Bill Huffman, you're one of those detractors from USENET, blah blah blah." I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you're a bot, or if you just can't be bothered to read anything anyone else says.

And no, none of this happened because of you or your petty little lock, it happened because Stifle and Ideogram have been willing to come in here, talk about the article and reference policies that actually apply. That's the horrifyingly sad part of all this, you could have gotten what you wanted the whole time, but your complete inability to assume good faith, your refusal to respond calmly and civilly to anyone elses concerns and your insistence on taking every policy you could lay your hands on and twisting it to your obsessive purpose stalled your own efforts as much, if not more, than anyone else's.

So no, this is NOT what you've been saying for months, you've been dragging out libel, NOR, verifiabilty and every other policy under the sun, but you never found the right tool for the job and how you go about your edits here matters just as damned much as your intent. You're still a POV warrior, and the fact that you've managed to imagine me as your "sworn enemy" when I spent most of my time here, pre-Cmdr, removing exactly the sort of anti-Smart vandalism and material you claim to oppose says everything about what a combative, abrasive and counter-productive presence you have been. Oh, who am I kidding, you're not even going to read this far.

Fox1 (talk) 20:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Articles about living persons require a degree of sensitivity and must adhere strictly to Misplaced Pages's 
content policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal 
lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately 
from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly 
on the shoulders of the person making the claim.

• Biography articles of living people