Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:17, 31 December 2014

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Girls' Generation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 6 months

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Girls' Generation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 6 months

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Girls' Generation. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Girls' Generation at the Reference desk.

	Girls' Generation was a Music good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result May 26, 2012 Good article nominee Not listed

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Musicians This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Eurovision Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Eurovision, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Eurovision-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EurovisionWikipedia:WikiProject EurovisionTemplate:WikiProject EurovisionEurovision Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Korea High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Korea, a collaborative effort to build and improve articles related to Korea. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how use this banner, please refer to the documentation.KoreaWikipedia:WikiProject KoreaTemplate:WikiProject KoreaKorea-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Korean popular culture working group. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Pop music Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pop music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to pop music on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Pop musicWikipedia:WikiProject Pop musicTemplate:WikiProject Pop musicPop music Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Reorganisation of History section

The history section of the page really needs a revamp. Not only is it excessively long and unnecessarily detailed, but many of the references are dead links or generally poor references. The section should be brief but concise and mainly talking about the group as a whole; individual activities can go on the member's page. Obviously, the first part would be to start off with the pre-debut section. That section is fairly well done already but some of the info can be moved into a background section and references should be updated and/or replaced. Some help would be appreciated as well. :) Flarepik (talk) 12:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I removed some of the info that are not necessary but still.. the history section is still long. Still need some help to shorten the setion.--kathrinamaeb (talk) 16:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Some simple contributions would be to post 'good' references regarding their pre-debut or debut. No blogs or self research - just hit up the MOS if anyone's confused about reference choices. Just submit the link or reference with a brief description of what it is about. Flarepik (talk) 10:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

File:LG 시네마 3D TV 새 모델 ‘소녀시대’ 영입.jpg to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:LG 시네마 3D TV 새 모델 ‘소녀시대’ 영입.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on May 23, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-05-23. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:48, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Also known as in individual member articles

I didn't want to start this discussion on the talk page for every individual member so I'll throw it on here. I was looking at the infoboxes for each member and noticed the "also known as" is full of nicknames, none of which are official or acknowledged by SME or anyone other than fans. While some are acceptable (for example Soonkyu for Sunny) others are filled with fan nicknames. Seohyun's is especially bad with nicknames like Maknae, Goddess, & Princess. That's fine if you feel like calling her that but I doubt it needs to be mentioned on an encyclopedic article. I suggest we either remove the AKA section or severely trim it down. DragonFury (talk) 12:53, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree! --Christian140 (talk) 13:05, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 October 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Girls' Generation in January 2012. From left to right: Taeyeon, Hyoyeon, Seohyun, Sooyoung, Tiffany, Sunny and Yuri

Fansites

Please don't add links to fansites such as soshified.com or wonderfulgeneration.net. Thanks. Raykyogrou0 (Talk) 16:16, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Roles

I'm interested in the roles that the girls play in the group. I know that they have titles and in other kpop group pages they have titles for the members but I don't know them so I can't add them. Would this be a good addition? And if so can someone add it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.109.233 (talk) 03:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Let me explain this in simple words. I can put any role that comes to my mind. I can call them rappers, dancers, sub-vocalists etc. You can too. Another editor may not agree with you or me and they may add roles of their own choice. I hope you can see that this is not a good idea. How can this problem be fixed so that everyone can agree on a reliable set of roles? The answer is simple. we need reliable sources like newspapers and magazines who have published these roles. Your word or mine is simply not enough. So the question is: Do you know of any reliable magazines or newspapers which have published their roles? Δρ.Κ.  04:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

What "roles" are you talking about? Like one of them is the "leader" of the group or something? Raykyogrou0 (Talk) 08:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

"Roles" is another name for "positions". Δρ.Κ.  08:44, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

'anneyeonghaseyo

' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.1.15.222 (talk) 11:44, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Jessica has allegedly been dismissed from the group.

She posted an update to her Weibo account saying "I was excited about our upcoming fan events only to shockingly be informed by my company and 8 others that as of today, I'm no longer a member. I'm devastated - my priority and love is to serve as a member of GG, but for no justifiable reason, I am being forced out". She also later posted that she was deeply saddened that she had been hurt by "those she trusted". There are debates that it's a hacker, but Korean media is reporting that the reason is that she was neglecting SNSD in favour of her company "Blanc" and wanting to get married to Tyler Kwon.

http://blog.koreaboo.com/post/98777747568/breaking-dispatch-reveals-insight-into-why-girls http://www.reddit.com/r/kpop/comments/2htp47/snsds_jessica_on_her_weibo_i_was_excited_about/?sort=new http://www.allkpop.com/article/2014/09/exclusive-statement-from-sm-entertainment-regarding-girls-generations-jessicas-leaving-the-group http://www.allkpop.com/article/2014/09/jessicas-absence-at-the-airport-weibo-update-lack-of-response-from-sm-leave-fans-worrying-stock-prices-drop http://www.allkpop.com/article/2014/09/jessica-dropped-from-girls-generation https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Byv1I-aCcAEyF7B.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.16.255.231 (talk) 03:12, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's already confirmed, and the page has been edited to reflect this.ចេក ម៉ានុត (talk) 07:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

It's confirmed on blogs, therefore that is not enough to make any changes. Do not change the members list or add any silly former sections until there are official words by SM in the form of a website change or press conference. The issue is still ongoing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SinaH (talk • contribs) 01:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

This is the official statement from SM Entertainment http://m.smtown.com/Board/Details/6885506 and this is the direct translation from eNewsWorld http://mwave.interest.me/enewsworld/en/article/77155/sm-makes-official-statement-on-jessica . Based on these two articles, it seems like this portion of the statement confirms that Jessica is really a former member.

이에 당사는 8인 체제의 소녀시대 활동을 당초보다 앞당기는 것으로. 결정할 수 밖에 없었으며, 그 발표 시점 등을 논의하는 과정에서, 제시카 본인의 시각으로 금일 새벽에 글이 게재되었습니다. 향후 당사는 8인 체제의 소녀시대 및 제시카의 개인 활동에 대한. 변함없는 지원과 매니지먼트를 해 나갈 예정입니다.

Or its English translation here

"With this, the company decided it had to promote SNSD with eight members sooner than expected, and while it was discussing when to announce the news, Jessica posted her own perspective in the early morning." SM Entertainment wrote last, "From this point onward, the company will unchangingly support and manange SNSD with eight members as well as Jessica′s personal activities."--TerryAlex (talk) 03:19, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

It is pretty straight forward, albeit heartbreaking, according to these statements: Jessica IS a former member now. Though, she is still an SM Artist operating under the agency until further notice and might even have a solo debut like Taemin. So we will not be putting her in the former list section of SM Entertainment at least. But as far as Girls' Generation is concerned, it cannot be helped. FudgeFury 07:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Member section

Moscow Connection Why is this needed?--TerryAlex (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• Because all articles about musical groups are supposed to have a Members section. By the way, there is even a special template, specially for K-pop groups: Template:K-pop group members table. --Moscow Connection (talk) 18:29, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Moscow Connection, if you look the recent discussion on my talk page (as well as the talk page of A Pink), you will see the rationale for removing the table. It was not my idea to remove it. Drmies has been removing the tables, and it doesn't make sense for some groups to have it and some not. TerryAlex, dates aren't supposed to go in the infobox so that won't work as an alternative. --Random86 (talk) 21:13, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Random86, alright, if dates aren't supposed to go inside the infobox, that's fine. It has been indicated within the article anyways.--TerryAlex (talk) 21:17, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Could you just give me the direct links? (Or even better, diffs.) I don't want to search for discussions in random places.
It does make sense for some groups to still have the Members section cause all articles about musical groups have the right to have it. If some are removed for whatever reasons, there are still thousands. In fact some groups even have separate articles for this:
List of AC/DC band members (there are tables and everything)
And even Pink Floyd live backing musicians.
So anyway, if it is okay for AC/DC, it's okay for Girl's Generation. If you really don't want it to be removed, don't remove them.
And I don't get it. If you someone doesn't agree with what has been done to other article, why do the same to Girl's Generation? Why not to Crayon Pop, you seem to like Crayon Pop a lot and you didn't remove the table from their article. . :-) --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:59, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Moscow Connection, Here are some diffs for A Pink: 1, 2, 3, 4. Discussions on my talk page are User talk:Random86#List of members (first three posts only) and User talk:Random86#Hangul names. Here's the short version: Drmies thinks "four different spellings" (birth and stage names, in Hangul and romanization) is too much, and he thinks birth dates are irrelevant and unreliably sourced because you can't trust the entertainment companies (the source of this information). A quote from my talk page: "There isn't a single place on Misplaced Pages where such lists have anything but name and instrument. At best you find a range of dates for when they were in a band. You never find birthdates". As I mentioned above, he has been removing the member tables with this rationale. To make the K-pop pages consistent, I started removing more of them. I was also thinking it might provoke more discussion, which it has, so thank you. Now, I personally don't have a problem with the member table, especially when the members don't have their own articles. But, I'm not familiar with how this kind of section is done on other parts of Misplaced Pages. Drmies provided examples, and it does look like birth dates are not usually included. So, you are probably going to have to talk to Drmies. --Random86 (talk) 22:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• Moscow, you know I don't put any stock in the "all K-pop articles have it". It means nothing--well, it means that things have gotten seriously out of hand. That there is a special template doesn't mean that it's OK--it just means that, well, things have gotten seriously out of hand. The other day someone was offended by my use of the word "template porn", but that's what this is: gratuitous fabrication and insertion of templates.

  "All K-pop articles have it"--if it were up to the fans (you know who they are) these lists would have official and favorite colors zodiac signs and blood types; you know I'm not inventing that, I've seen it. Now, that some bands have separate articles for band members, yeah, sure, but let's not pretend that Girls' Generation or JJ Whatever are "like" AC/DC or Black Sabbath or so. For those bands, (most) individual band members are clearly notable, and in many cases the various changes in personnel have a legitimate encyclopedic relevance. Do not compare apples with pears; just look at the references, and apply some common sense. "if it is okay for AC/DC, it's okay for Girl's Generation"--in principle, maybe, but practically speaking it's pure nonsense since the sourcing is simply not there for your girls. (And I still haven't heard an argument for why all these spellings and all these variants and these unreliably sourced dates of birth are somehow relevant or necessary.) Drmies (talk) 23:01, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies: All these spellings — definitely don't matter that much. Cause the Korean ones are repeated two times and the table looks rather awful. But something like:

• Jessica (제시카, Jung Soo-yeon), b. April 18, 1989 (age 25) — left in 2014

would look okay and be almost as informative. (Less detailed than the current table, but it will suffice cause someone who wants to know the Korean name will have some basic understanding of the Korean writing system already.)
But I must say that the line-up of this particular group is very simple, and that something simple like this would probably not work for some groups. I can try to come up with a neater table formatting. I wanted to do something like this for you can guess which other group with 100 members or so... Like, the "roster" can be made to look like this: . (You can laugh and I won't mind if in this particular article you replace the table with a list like I've suggested above, but for some groups something like this will probably be neccessary.) What if I try? (Not now, in a week or so.)
By the way,
The sourcing is simply not there for your girls — for this particular group it's certainly there. I can find third-party sources for their birthdays easily if you want. And the argument (I haven't read other discussions, but Random86 says you said something like this) that you can't trust their agencies is not really a good argument in my opinion. Cause many people have changed their birth years and you can't trust any agencies, not just the Korean ones. E.g. you can't trust the birth date of any Hollywood star from the 1930s, and they have birthdays in their articles. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:59, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

For those members that don't have a separate article, sure. But for those that do have their own, the information can be obtained there. If someone looks at the infobox for this page (along with History:2014), they know that Jessica is already a past member. Anything regarding her name, etc. are mentioned on her own article.--TerryAlex (talk) 00:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

An infobox is only intended to summarize what the article says elsewhere. And I've already said that all articles about bands have a members section. If you want to remove the sections completely, you should go to the Music project and file a formal petition there.
As for the birthdays, we should not ask our readers to click 18 times going back and forth and probably scrolling, too, to find out everyone's birthday. Why would you do this to people? Waste anyone's time? I personally rarely look at member's articles, I want all information in one place. (By the way, in the case of K-pop groups, their birthdays are usually listed everywhere, they are a part of the group's image. It's not like a heavy metal band when no one cares.) (And by the way, I've looked at some articles and there are no Korean spellings. I can only guess someone have removed them as unnecessary.)
And basically, the list of members is the most important information in the whole article, it's probably the only part 90 percent people read. We have enough space on Misplaced Pages for everything. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:48, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

No, you need to ask yourself why a birthdate is necessary; I still haven't heard an answer to that. "The reader wants to know" isn't really the only parameter here, you know. (If a reader wants to know a birthdate, why don't they just go to the company page?) Yes, I am well aware that it's part of the K-pop thing, but what you are saying is we should follow the marketing strategies of the entertainment companies that make these groups.

And you're proposing three names in two different spelling systems--again, why? Why would we need to know a stage name and a real name for someone who is in a band (i.e., not a solo artist) and is not notable in her own right? That's why I keep saying, "pick one". Now, everything is better than those awful tables, for sure, so this would be progress, but still.

And yes, I am sticking to my guns on the sourcing thing: we have a policy, and it's found at WP:BLP. It applies here. A Hollywood star from the 1930s, you can bet that someone has looked into it, and has written it up in a book or a reliable publication. In this area, we are dependent completely on the production companies, and that's just not a good thing. If we can't trust Allkpop and those kinds of sites, then we certainly shouldn't automatically trust the owners of these groups, their contracts, their social lives and their bodies ("We Got Married"), their sexualities, and their public image. Why would you trust them? Don't you know that youth is a very marketable commodity? Drmies (talk) 01:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• Former good article nominees
• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• C-Class biography articles
• C-Class biography (musicians) articles
• Mid-importance biography (musicians) articles
• Musicians work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• C-Class Eurovision articles
• Mid-importance Eurovision articles
• All WikiProject Eurovision pages
• C-Class Korea-related articles
• High-importance Korea-related articles
• WikiProject Korea popular culture working group
• WikiProject Korea articles
• C-Class Pop music articles
• Mid-importance Pop music articles
• Pop music articles