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On 30 January 2010, it was proposed that this page be moved from Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions to Misplaced Pages:Article titles. The result of the discussion was moved.

Hillary Clinton or Hillary Rodham Clinton?

Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Requested move 6 (June 2013)

Closed. Apteva (talk) 02:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Clarify WP:POVTITLE?

In Talk:2013_Egyptian_coup_d'état#Requested_move and the continuing discussion down the page, there is disagreement as to whether WP:POVTITLE is applicable. A lot of reliable sources describe the events as a coup, but it's not a proper name like the Boston Massacre or the Corrupt Bargain, where the name is used even by those who say things like "the Corrupt Bargain was not a corrupt bargain". Should WP:POVTITLE be clarified, or supplemented with a link to an essay? --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 22:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think the policy should make clear that the question of whether a non-neutral term should be used in a titles hinges on the quality of the alternatives available. If a good alternative exists, the non-neutral term should be avoided. If not, it should not. In my opinion WP:POVTITLE really should be viewed as a on equal footing with the five naming criteria, having neither vetoing-power over the criteria, nor being a mere afterthought for special cases.TheFreeloader (talk) 01:32, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure we need to clarify the policy. At this point, it is too soon for this event to have a settled commonly used proper name. Anything we call it at this point will be a descriptive title (and descriptive titles must be neutral). So it simply comes down to a) forming a consensus as to whether the term "coup d'état" is neutral or not, and b) determining if what occurred in Egypt meets the definition of a coup d'état. Blueboar (talk) 02:15, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Back at the Egyptian coup talk page, the distinction between proper names and descriptions was almost completely ignored. The argument was basically 'it's a coup; sources call it a coup; POVTITLE licenses calling it what the sources call it even if it's POV; therefore end-of-discussion'. (Well actually, most of the commenters didn't get past the first clause.) I looked at POVTITLE, didn't immediately find language to quote at them, and went off to other pages about POV and disputes -- missing the obvious next section. Describing it as a coup is "common" in the sources. It's described that way in a majority of reliable sources. Then the section moves on to talk about redirects. If I make that mistake, others well may also.

I suggest that we modify the first sentence to say "proper name", thus: When the subject of an article is commonly referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language reliable sources, Misplaced Pages generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title (subject to the other naming criteria). . Thoughts on this possible change? --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 12:31, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You know, this is one reason why I dislike shortcuts... they encourage people to just read one sub-section and ignore the sub-sections around it. It is never a good idea to read just one part of a policy.

That said, I think it wasn't completely your fault here. You were misled because the POVTITLE tag was misplaced ... since a title can be either a name or a description, the short cut "POVTITLE" should have pointed you to the entire Neutrality in article titles section, and not just to the Non-neutral but common names sub-section (which has the shortcut "POVNAME"). I have fixed that by moving the tag. Do you think this simple shifting of the shortcut would have helped in your situation? Blueboar (talk) 14:17, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Good solution. I think that would have helped. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 19:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, we do need further clarification. Closure of the Egyptian coup RM was explicitly based on the premise that WP:POVTITLE was applicable, i.e. that "2013 Egyptian coup d'etat" is a name rather than a description. I can't see any basis for considering it a name, and no one in favor of "coup" seems to see any need to provide any such basis. We're at an impasse. I won't be around much for about a week starting tomorrow evening, but (unless I run into a shiny object) I'll do an essay on name vs description when I get back. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 14:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I propose that we clarify that we can use a term in a descriptive title if it is commonly used in reliable sources with the same connotation to refer to the topic. --B2C 19:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

It's already clear that we can use a POVNAME in related titles, as in "Political impact of the Boston Massacre". What may need clarification is why, and how that extends to descriptive terms in descriptive titles. My understanding is that Misplaced Pages should always take a neutral point of view, and the reason we can use a these names is that they do not express a point of view, not because they're common. It matters that they're "common", not in the sense that they're abundant, but in the sense that they're shared: they're used not only by people who agree with the POV the word would normally express, but also by people who don't. To call something a lower-case-m massacre is POV; to call something the Boston Massacre isn't -- precisely because the name "Boston Massacre" is part of the common language shared by people with different opinions on it. The criterion for deciding whether a term can be used is whether it makes something POV. Neither a title nor an article is allowed to be POV. But an article normally can give due weight to all notable points of view, and a title can't. So I propose we clarify that we can't use a term in a descriptive title just because it is frequently used in reliable sources with the same connotation to refer to the topic. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 15:27, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Do article titles that include proper names need to follow standard grammatical rules?

It is a standard grammatical rule that when including place names in prose, qualifiers are set off with commas. For example: "He took a trip to Springfield, Illinois, to see his mother." Should or should not this rule apply likewise to article titles, at least when the article titles are not proper names? Powers 19:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Um... a place name like Springfield, Illinois is a proper name... isn't it? Blueboar (talk) 19:47, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

No, Springfield is the proper name for the city; Illinois is the proper name for the state. Springfield, Illinois is not the name of the city; it is a reference to the city with additional geographical context.

As a test, ask random people either of the following two questions:

1. What city are we in?
2. What is the name of the city we are in?

I find I get significantly different answers to these two seemingly similar questions, especially in smaller towns and cities. In large well-known cities the two answers are typically the same (e.g., "San Francisco" and "San Francisco"). But in smaller cities the answers are different (e.g., "Paris, Texas" and "Paris"). Either way, the name of a U.S. city typically does not include the state it is in in most contexts. --B2C 19:58, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

No, the proper name for the city is City of Springfield. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

City of Springfield is the official name of that city's government. It is not the name, much less the proper name, of the city itself. --B2C 20:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

So you are saying that the official name is not a proper name? And yes, it is THE name. It may not be the common name but that is a different question. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:43, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

No. The official name of the city government is a proper name of the city government, but not a proper name of the city. The city (lower case) is not the government, and the government is not the city. However, we do use City (capitalized) to refer to the government of the city, and that's a proper name too. A proper name of the government, again. --B2C 20:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion of usage here. B2C appears to be using "the proper name" to mean "the correct name", whereas the original question was about "a proper name" in the grammatical sense (see Proper noun). "City of Springfield" is a proper name, as is "Springfield".

(Strictly a side issue, but the combination "Springfield, Illinois" is interesting. The comma suggests that it's a combination of two proper nouns. However, if you listen carefully to someone saying something like "No, not London, England, London, Ontario" the punctuation I've used is misleading: there's a pause/change of intonation between "London, England" and "London, Ontario" but not in either case between "London" and the next word. In practice, I think that combinations like "London England" are treated as something like a first name + a surname and hence as a proper name.) Peter coxhead (talk) 21:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

"B2C appears to be using "the proper name" to mean "the correct name"". To the contrary, I'm using "proper name" in the grammatical sense. However, I'm distinguishing the proper name (in the grammatical sense) of the city (e.g., Springfield) from the proper name (in the grammatical sense) of the government of the city (e.g., City of Springfield). --B2C 21:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I’m just confused on why this conversation is happening here rather than on a grammar or ESL forum. It’s certainly not relevant to the OP’s question. —Frungi (talk) 21:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I responded to Vegas' assertion that the proper name of the city is City of Springfield. It wasn't a grammar issue. It partially explains why we title our articles Los Angeles rather than City of Los Angeles (the latter would be appropriate for a separate article which is exclusively about the government of the city - but we merge that topic into the article about the city). --B2C 21:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me clarify the original question. When proper nouns occur within an article title, should it be punctuated as if it were in prose? For instance, an article about the Rochester, New York, metropolitan area: Rochester, New York metropolitan area vs Rochester, New York, metropolitan area (comma after “New York”). —Frungi (talk) 21:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

The answer is surely "Yes": the article title should be styled the same way as it would be in text. "Rochester, New York, metropolitan area" means "the metropolitan area of Rochester in New York". "Rochester, New York metropolitan area" means "Rochester in the metropolitan area of New York". Peter coxhead (talk) 21:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Unless more than one Rochester has a metropolitan area notable enough to have an article in WP, it's unnecessary disambiguation to include the state in the title; for best conformance with WP:CRITERIA in that case, the title should be Rochester metropolitan area.

If disambiguation is necessary, as is apparently the case here, I suggest parentheses: Rochester metropolitan area (New York) and Rochester metropolitan area (Minnesota). But I also think a strong argument could be made per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:TWODABS for no dab page, and to use Rochester metropolitan area for the one in New York, and Rochester metropolitan area (Minnesota). --B2C 21:36, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Just use the common natural form as Peter said: "Rochester, New York, metropolitan area", like in a sentence in a book. Dicklyon (talk) 22:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I like Rochester metropolitan area (New York)... or the more descriptive Greater Rochester (New York). Blueboar (talk) 23:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't know of any precedence or reason to use "common natural sentence form" in article titles. --B2C 00:04, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• The question is whether given that a state is appearing as the second word of the article title to specify which state the city is in there should be a comma after the state. This is a question that apparently arises a lot. See here. Whether a completely different style of title should be chosen, and whether or not we think it's necessary or helpful to include the state name in the first place, are questions about the "comma convention" at WP:USPLACE that we can address on that page, if we want. (Some of the participants in this discussion are noisily opposed to the USPLACE "comma convention" and are trying to make this discussion about that, which it isn't.) The answer to this first question has to be yes, there needs to be a comma. PowersT said it best himself here in a discussion about the Vidalia, Georgia, micropolitan area: "The state name is delimited by commas because it is an interruption to the regular flow of the phrase. Much like one would say "the British style of government" or "New York state of mind", we have a noun phrase ("micropolitan area") being modified by a location ("Vidalia") to form a descriptive phrase ("Vidalia micropolitan area"). It's an area named for or identified by the community "Vidalia". The state name, here, is used as it is in running prose: "The man said he was from the Tupelo, Mississippi, area." One would not say "... from the Tupelo, Mississippi area", because one is not talking of a "Mississippi area". Likewise, we are not speaking of a "Georgia micropolitan area"; we're talking of a micropolitan area named for "Vidalia, Georgia". Thus, the commas are necessary, just as they would be in running prose."

The Rochester example is bad because "new york metropolitan area" has two meanings. But if we change the example to "rochester minnesota metropolitan area," there should be a comma both before and after minnesota because we are saying "the metropolitan area of rochester, minnesota" not "the minnesota metropolitan area of rochester" (because the state is being used to disambiguate the city).AgnosticAphid talk 02:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

So how do we differentiate between the metro area of a city and a designated statistical collection area, that is named after a city in the area? Is the former Rochester, Minnesota, metropolitan area and the latter Rochester, Minnesota metropolitan area? Both can exist and the boundaries may not be the same. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The presence or absence of a comma goes nowhere near making such a distinction. But before we make any distinction between those two in article titles, I think we need to do so in our metropolitan area article; by my read of that, a metro area is a designated statistical collection area. —Frungi (talk) 06:35, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't quite understand the distinction Vegaswikian is trying to make. Can someone clarify? Powers 14:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure myself, but perhaps he is asking this: assume Rochester NY is actually some sort of small area or neighborhood in the New York (city) metropolitan area (what omitting the comma incorrectly suggests). How would we title its article? Presumably not "Rochester, NY metropolitan area"? AgnosticAphid talk 16:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Just for some background and clarification... Rochester, New York is city in western New York State. The title of our article on that city is in line with WP:USPLACE. But that article and title is not what is being asked about here. Rochester is also the anchor for a "Metropolitan Statistical Area" (MSA) designated by the US Census... this MSA includes the city itself, and several surrounding counties. If I understand the issue correctly, what is being asked about is the title our article on this particular MSA.

The answer will depend on several questions not yet asked. First... what is the official name of this MSA? Is this official name also the COMMONNAME, or not? If not, what is the COMMONNAME for the MSA? Second... if we use either the official name or the COMMONNAME, is there a need for disambiguation? Third... does WP:USPLACE apply to MSA articles? I am not sure that it does... An MSA is not really a place... its an artificial conglomeration of multiple places - joined together for the sake of statistical analysis. All of these questions will affect the title. Blueboar (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

These are all interesting questions that are not particularly relevant to the question initially asked. What would an article about the overall metropolitan area, not necessarily the official statistical area, be called? What about another article that is titled in a similar fashion, like maybe if there was an article about malls in the area that for some reason we decided to title "Rochester New York malls" (rather than the more typical "malls in rochester, new york" which avoids this issue)? "Rochester New York Rochester, New York metropolitan area is just an example about a particularly terrible consequence of what happens if we omit the second comma from such names. That's why I said above that "rochester minnesota metropolitan area" was a more prototypical example. AgnosticAphid talk 17:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

census.gov always styles it as "Rochester, NY Metropolitan Statistical Area", but not many other reliable sources follow them in that. We decided some time ago that these areas should be more about the metropolitan area (lowercase), as opposed to the formal census designations, which their old titles don't quite follow anyway. The Rochester one is yet to be fully fixed. Dicklyon (talk) 17:46, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Well... here is another preliminary question... does Rochester really have a "metropolitan area" (lower case)? I've been there... nice city, but it isn't all that that big. Blueboar (talk) 18:42, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Books suggest that it has. Not always the same counties as the MSA includes. Dicklyon (talk) 18:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I tried to fix the Rochester one, not realizing that there had been a recent losing RM there (opposed by the idiotic theory of Apteva—explained here—and the "proper name" theory, neither of which would have help up in wider discussion). So, there's a bunch of work to do. Dicklyon (talk) 19:18, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Some entries in Category:Neighborhoods in New York might be helpful.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet, it might be helpful to note WP:COMMA:

In geographical references that include multiple levels of subordinate divisions (e.g., city, state/province, country), a comma separates each element and follows the last element (except at the end of a sentence). Dates in month–day–year format also require a comma after the day and after the year (except at the end of a sentence). In both cases, the last element is treated as parenthetic.

Incorrect: On November 24, 1971 Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon and was destined for Seattle, Washington.

Correct:   On November 24, 1971, Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon, and was destined for Seattle, Washington.

—sroc 💬 02:16, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, I'd hoped we had a rule that codified that standard English practice. The problem is that I cannot seem to convince people that this rule applies equally to article titles. Powers 03:12, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I though it was pretty well agreed that article titles should be noun phrases (see WP:NOUN). How does the question of using non-grammatical constructs even come up? Dicklyon (talk) 04:54, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think it is more a question of whether to use a noun (a formal name), or a noun phrase (a description). The advice so far seems to favor using the latter... in which case, we have to ask which noun phrase do we want to use... one that requires lots of commas to work grammatically, or one that does not. I would opt for one that does not need lots of commas. Alternatively, we could use a title that is combination of both a name and a description... What about: "Rochester, New York (metropolitan area)"? Blueboar (talk) 17:18, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, is it really better to avoid using a comma by using two parentheses instead? The other problem with that name is that it suggests that the "metropolitan area" part of the name is an optional clarifying addition when I don't think anyone would refer to the metropolitan area as just "Rochester, New York." AgnosticAphid talk 18:33, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Why not Rochester (New York metropolitan area) and Rochester (Minnesota metropolitan area)? bd2412 T 21:20, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Those are lame. Why use an awkward and unusual parenthetical style when a natural noun phrase will do the job? Dicklyon (talk) 00:27, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Which natural noun phrase are you referring to? Blueboar (talk) 01:50, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Rochester, New York, metropolitan area. Like in books: , , , . – Dicklyon (talk) 03:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification... Here is my concern: the phrase "New York metropolitan area" is most commonly used to refer to New York City and its suburbs. Yes, I know that, grammatically, having a comma before and after "New York" makes an important difference, but that difference is subtle and not everyone will catch the subtlety... we want to avoid even potential confusion. That's why I think using parenthesis helps... Rochester, New York (metropolitan area) has no potential for confusion. Blueboar (talk) 03:59, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Using English punctuation for what is means is as clear as we can get, I think. Making up new constructs because some people may not see commas seems like an odd stretch. Dicklyon (talk) 04:04, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Rochester metropolitan area (New York); Rochester metropolitan area (Minnesota). This is consistent with parenthetical disambiguation across Misplaced Pages. —Frungi (talk) 07:04, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• The answer to the question is Yes; in this case at least, the article title should follow standard grammatical rules and insert the second comma: Rochester, New York, metropolitan area. The same change should be made for all other similarly named articles such as Portland, Maine metropolitan area --> Portland, Maine, metropolitan area. I used to think this didn't matter - in casual usage people often leave out the second comma even though it is grammatically required - but I changed my mind after a prolonged discussion with another user about Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area. That user took the absence of a comma literally, and insisted that the title refers to some (previously unknown) entity called the Ohio Metropolitan Area - and that the article so titled refers to the Columbus portion of the Ohio Metropolitan Area. This is so dead wrong - yet so logically defensible if you take the punctuation literally - that I feel we must follow the parenthetical-commas rule here. --MelanieN (talk) 23:20, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be a presumption that there is an agreed–upon standard that completely specifies the use of "city, state" in every possible construction of English. Yet in this discussion no one has provided such a standard. The original request to move cited the Connecticut community college website http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm, item 4 which gives two exceptions to the rule (i.e., where the extra comma should not be used), both involving constructions of the form modifier noun where modifier is of the form city, state. These exceptions are a closer fit to the article name Rochester, New York metropolitan area than the example given in MOS:COMMA. -- DanielPenfield (talk) 02:10, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Guides do vary, but there is mostly agreement on this. See , , , , , . Dicklyon (talk) 03:10, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

And yet all of those sources (save one) sidestep the most controversial applications of this "standard" grammatical rule:

• "city, state" as subject: Pocatello, Idaho, is one of the friendliest cities around. (Why am I pausing immediately after the subject of the sentence?)
• "city, state" as object: I enjoyed Tuscaloosa, Alabama, immensely. (Why am I pausing between the verb and adverb when I don't intend any emphasis?)
• "city, state" as modifier: Las Cruces, New Mexico, housing is in short supply. (This last case is dealt with explicitly only in which wants us to believe that the comma doesn't represent a pause. Also, how seriously should I consider something published by "Scarecrow Press"?) -- DanielPenfield (talk) 12:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

A comma does not represent a pause. It often coincides with one in spoken English, but that is not what the mark means. If you look up comma abuse or comma overuse, I believe you’ll find many sources that support this—inexperienced writers often erroneously insert a comma where they would pause when speaking aloud. —Frungi (talk) 19:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I’ll just point out that in both of those exceptions, the comma was replaced with a different punctuation mark. That is not the case for the titles in question. —Frungi (talk) 06:14, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

While I disagree with the characterization that a possessive apostrophe or a hyphen "replaces" a comma, I do admit that they chose ambiguous examples. I could just as easily attribute the comma-free construction to its form (viz., modifier noun) as I could to the existence of other punctuation that separates the placename-used-as-modifier from the rest of the sentence. Why can't anyone offer up more than one rulebook (published by the authoritative "Scarecrow Press") that explains that a comma should always follow the state even when that additional comma looks like an awkward pause, or, at a minimum shows the rule applied where it isn't obvious that it should be applied (see above)? -- DanielPenfield (talk) 12:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I think I did use the wrong word there. Rather, it seems to me that the apostrophe and the hyphen overrode the second comma. If you read about those exceptions, you’ll see that your ascribed reason is wrong. But regardless of the reason, the fact remains that both exceptions have a different punctuation mark where the comma would have been. —Frungi (talk) 19:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the exceptions DanielPenfield references refer specifically to "possessives" (which by definition use an apostrophe) and "compounds" (which by definition use a hyphen if not combined into a single word). Neither of those cases applies here. Powers 17:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

But again, we're getting sidetracked. I didn't mean to introduce the ambiguity of the New York phrase into the discussion. Portland, Maine would be just as fine an example. It seems obvious to me that it should be Portland, Maine, metropolitan area, and that the omission of the comma (in Apteva's case, with the explicit purpose of interpreting the title as "the Maine metropolitan area surrounding Portland") is both confusing and non-grammatical. Is this the general consensus here? Powers 17:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

With the notable exception of Apteva, yes, it seems so to me. —Frungi (talk) 18:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. While there are some guides that say that second comma is becoming optional, interpretations like Apteva's only serve to show why that's a bad idea when writing for a general audience who might get confused by the lack of helpful grammatical signal. Dicklyon (talk) 18:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. I would say there is consensus. New York is a special case, because of the potential for confusion between city and state (a confusion that might require making a "New York exception" to the consensus). Things are much easier with non-New York metro areas. OK, there are other potential titles we could use (Greater Portland, Maine... Metropolitan Area of Portland, Maine.... Portland, Maine (Metropolitan area) all come to mind) but I would agree that these other options are not as natural as Portland, Maine, metropolitan area. And assuming that we are going to use that natural title, I would agree that there is consensus that it should include the second comma. Blueboar (talk) 18:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

It seemed that we had pretty good agreement here about sensible comma usage; and someone even added a bit to the MOS, with only Apteva objecting, as far as I can see, to indicate that a comma used after a state as in the this discussion. Yet we still have RMs about this issue being confused by Apteva and his theory, but by another guy who thinks a "metropolitan area" is a proper name, and by a non-admin closer who can't see past the distractors. Am I missing something, or is this messed up? Dicklyon (talk) 21:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the broad question posed here of whether article titles should follow grammatical rules, my answer is generally yes, but it depends on the rule. I would say that not all the guidelines for sentences and prose are suitable to titles, and vice versa. Titles serve a different purpose than sentences in the body and have their own special considerations, which in part is why we have separate guidelines just for them.

For instance, in the case of the two-comma form under consideration (both here and in the current RfC on the subject), the feeling – shared both by those who do and do not favor it – seems to be that it produces a form that's "awkward" or "clunky"; that being the case, one has to weigh the benefit of applying a grammatical rule against the cost of altering stable article titles to make them awkward and clunky. Such decisions are probably best made through discussion. ╠╣uw  10:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

if there's a concern with the grammatically correct construction being awkward, surely we should recast the title in a different grammatically correct way rather than make up our own grammatically incorrect title. That just makes wikipedia look unprofessional. I can't envision a situation where the latter option would be preferable. We shouldn't retain incorrect titles just because moving lots of articles is a pain. AgnosticAphid talk 15:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The one-comma construction isn't our own "made up" form; as several RfC commentators have noted, it's a form used in a range of reliable sources. As for discussing ways to recast the title to avoid such constructions altogether, that's fine; however, unless it can be clearly demonstrated that there's actually a problem with the current very stable titles (beyond grammatical pedantry), even that may be unnecessary. ╠╣uw  23:02, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I believe that's a clear overstatement. The only "reliable source" I saw that omitted the comma (rather than suggesting recasting instead of using two commas – which clearly indicates a preference for two commas over one comma – or ambiguously saying that the single comma is increasingly accepted, without actually using it) was the US census bureau. I don't think that the census bureau necessarily made the grammatically incorrect choice on purpose. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I really don't think there's "a range of reliable sources" that use this grammatically incorrect construction. AgnosticAphid talk 23:55, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The census bureau usage is only with the two-letter postal abbreviations, not state names. A few guides (e.g. this one) have a special rule for that case, saying the comma is not needed (compared to with the state, where it is needed). So the census bureau usage is consistent with such guides, not an exception. In WP, since we don't use postal codes in titles (except in those titles that haven't been fixed to be consistent with guidelines yet), that case is not relevant. Look to the Bureau of Labor Statistics for how the census areas are applied; they use state names spelled out and the second comma. I think H is correct that the single comma is "a form used in a range of reliable sources", but so is the two commas, and I don't see how he thinks that determines why WP should deviate from its usual style of using grammatical best practice. Dicklyon (talk) 01:16, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

As a general comment... if conflict over the rules of Grammar are making it hard to reach a consensus over two potential titles... try thinking of alternative titles that don't involve the Grammar rule in question. A third option might gain consensus. Blueboar (talk) 01:30, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Order of countries in articles regarding their common border

I ended up on Norway–Sweden border and wondered if there actually is a guideline regarding how to name articles regarding border. In this case, should Norway be stated before Sweden? _→AzaToth 20:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

"Norway–Sweden border" is contained in Category:Borders, and "Norway–Sweden relations" is contained in Category:Bilateral relations. The same decision might be applied to both categories. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject International relations might already have a guideline on the matter, for one or both of those categories.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:57, 24 July 2013 (UTC) and 21:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd say default to alphabetical. Except on tuesdays. Then, reverse-alphabetical. Or, we could just go by preponderance of sources, but I assume that will depend on which sources you're asking (Norwegian sources will call it the Norway-Sweden boundary, while Swedish sources will call it the opposite...)--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, alphabetical seems to obtain, at least here: Category:Bilateral_relations_of_Georgia_(country) (the only one I looked at). --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Virginia AzaToth, there is a guideline—Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Order of names in title:

Where multiple geographic names occur in a title, the names should be placed in alphabetical order unless there is a clear reason for another order. Examples: France–United States relations, but Turks and Caicos Islands or Kura–Araxes culture (both established names).

—sroc 💬 23:51, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: new ONLYTOPIC concept/section

My attempt to clarify the definition of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to apply in the obvious/trivial case of a term with only one use on WP is not gaining WP:LOCALCONSENSUS support at WT:D, primarily because the concept is considered to be out of scope for disambiguation, which by definition deals with the context of terms having more than one use.

So what about adding a parallel definition to WP:AT called ONLYTOPIC defined as follows?

Only topic

If a topic is the only topic with an article on Misplaced Pages to which a given term refers, then that topic is the Only topic for that term.

Every term which has an Only topic should be the title of, or a redirect to, the article about that Only topic.

For example, New York City has many terms that redirect to it. The topic of that article is either the Only Topic or the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for each of those terms, including: New York, New York, City of New York, NYC, etc.

The value of having this is so that we can easily reference the concept in contexts such as, "if the topic is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC or WP:ONLYTOPIC for the term, then...".

Comments? Questions? Suggestions? --B2C 23:57, 25 July 2013 (UTC) Edited to fix errors based on assuming every redirect is an Only Topic --B2C 17:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• WP:CREEP. oknazevad (talk) 00:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

  WP:JUSTAPOLICY. TheFreeloader (talk) 00:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think this seems like a natural extention of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and I might even go so far as to say that any reasonable interpretation of that guideline would already include everything in this proposed policy. As such I don't see why this would be appropriate to introduce here. The proper place for this, if it is needed, would in my opinion be over at WP:D.TheFreeloader (talk) 00:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

  Actually, I agree. But like I said, I can't seem to develop WP:LOCALCONSENSUS there for that. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated. See Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation#What_is_the_primary_topic_for_.22Oprah_Winfrey.22.3F. Thanks! --B2C 03:47, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - completely pointless, and the example given " Thus, the Only topic for NYC is the topic of the article at New York City. " isn't even correct; see NYC (Taiwan) and NYC (disambiguation). In ictu oculi (talk) 05:00, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Good point, In ictu oculi. I've fixed it. It was silly of me to assume that New York city is the Only Topic for every redirect to New York City. For some, like for NYC, it is the primary topic.

    But New York City is either the Only Topic or the Primary Topic for every term that redirects to New York City. Wouldn't it be convenient (less cumbersome) to say that New York City is the Primary Topic for every term that redirects to New York City? But we can't say that unless we clearly define WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to apply when a topic is the Only Topic. --B2C 17:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• Since the discussion on this topic at WT:D appears to have ended, I’ll respond here: Your wording doesn’t quite make sense to me, but conceptually, I don’t see the necessity. Has it ever been controversial that the “only topic” of a phrase should be the primary topic? Do we have DAB pages with only one working link? —Frungi (talk) 05:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Frungi, yes it has been controversial. This was explained and specific examples were given in the opening post of the WT:D section. Please read it. Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation#What_is_the_primary_topic_for_.22Oprah_Winfrey.22.3F. Please continue the discussion about that there. It is not closed. --B2C 17:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Are you sure? The most recent post in that section appears to be from three days ago, and the following section on the same subject was closed by an admin. Incidentally, the summer camp joke in your last post in that section sums up my feelings on the necessity of this clarification. —Frungi (talk) 19:01, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:Creep. No apparent need for more rules, and this reads as legalese without substance. Serves to increase the jargon load of policy, making the project more difficult for the unencultured to join. If you can't explain something simply, it doesn't belong in policy. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:03, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. This looks like another attempt to algorithmatise the determination of article titles—which might be acceptable if the algorithms could (1) entrench real consensus, 2) be evidence-based, and (3) be sensitive to the myriad of relevant real-world variables. But they fail on all three criteria.

  Please note these foundational statements of policy, at WP:TITLE:

  "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject. There is often more than one appropriate title for an article. In that case, editors choose the best title by consensus based on the considerations that this page explains."

  In that last sentence: "editors choose" ... "based on the considerations that this page explains". But the "editors choose" principle appears to be subverted—here just as persistently as at WP:DAB. That is the home of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (PT), a hard form of which one editor now seeks to entrench as policy.

  A suggested addition to TITLE is: "If a topic is the only topic with an article on Misplaced Pages to which a given term refers, then that topic is the Only topic for that term. Every term which has an Only topic should be the title of, or a redirect to, the article about that Only topic."

  Nowhere else in TITLE is the so-called primary topic given such status. Here are TITLE's two treatments of primary topic:

1. "Most of these exceptions are described in specific Misplaced Pages guidelines, such as Primary topic, Geographic names, or Names of royals and nobles." (PT is not presented as something that "should" be followed; it remains external to policy, as a mere guideline—one that is nearly always misread and misapplied, I argue. But B2C's addition elevates a version of PT to a non-discretionary "should".)
2. "As a general rule, when a topic's preferred title can also refer to other topics covered in Misplaced Pages: / If the article is about the primary topic to which the ambiguous name refers, then that name can be its title without modification, provided it follows all other applicable policies. / If the topic is not primary, the ambiguous name cannot be used and so must be disambiguated. (This "Only topic" proposal overrides the tentativeness of "as a general rule"; and it converts "can be its title without modification" to "should be its title without modification". What, I ask, is wrong with rational, overt, consensual, and responsive to the real world—as opposed to surrendering to algorule?)

   Tony (talk) 13:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose As per Tony: undesirable attempt to bypass the need for editors to make consensus decisions. Also unnecessary instruction creep. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose – I totally trust B2C; I trust him to always be looking for ways to advance the agenda detailed on his user page, as he has been doing for over 7 years here. That's why I reverted when he tried to add this to a policy page. I trust him to argue in RMs that every tidbit he has managed to sneak into a policy page trumps every guideline and every other editor's opinion about any particular question on which reasonable people have different opinions. Stomping out the influence of editor opinions is not an agenda that I agree with. So no; this one small creepy step is a step in the wrong direction. Dicklyon (talk) 18:10, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose this is pure utter instruction creep, and should not be allowed per WP:BURO. -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 06:34, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose someone will use this to point to article "XYZ (abc)" being the ONLYTOPIC even though "XYZ" is a synonym for "MNOP". Or where "XYZ (def)" is the obvious primary topic, but is only covered as a section of "MNOP" but we have a minor topic "XYZ (abc)" which has an article, and usurp them. The NYC example just proves this, since someone would move "NYC (Taiwan)" atop "NYC" to be the only topic (were just Taiwan and New York City the two articles that existed) -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Interpretation of WP:COMMONNAME

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Recently I have noted that some editors evoke WP:COMMONNAME in move discussions to suggest that most common layman's usage (as determined through recognizability and usage in general public, ngram results, google hits, etc.) trumps the most common usage within the field of expertise that relates to the article topic (the sources that would be reliable for writing the article). This RfC asks you to provide your opinion and arguments about whether WP:COMMONNAME should be interpreted as an injunction to follow layman's usage if it conflicts with expert usage, and whether you think current policy should be clarified in this regard.

Survey:

1. Comment I think this interpretation of policy is incorrect and problematic because it leads to situations in which a title can be divorced from the usage in reliable sources (e.g. all the reliable sources use one title, non-reliable sources and/or general usage uses another - so we adopt the latter in spite of all the reliable sources using the former). I think that this interpretation conflicts with the passus in WP:COMMONNAME saying that "Though official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred." I take this to mean that common name tells us to judge which title is more common through using the sources that are reliable for writing about the topic, not that we must blindly follow layman's usage. Even so, because of its apparent liability to this misunderstanding, I think we should amend policy to say clearly that assessments of what is the COMMONNAME should be based on the reliable sources for the topic, not on general usage frequency in the wider public. I don't consider this a change to policy, but a clarification of the originally intended policy. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:41, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
2. Comment. I'm not sure a hard-and-fast rule here would be helpful or address any known problem. Sometimes we should eschew common usage which is inexact or too informal, even if it is the most common (e.g. "correction fluid" not "Tipex"). But neither is esoteric expertese desirable in titling (e.g. "orangutan" not "pongo"). Maybe the OP could provide examples of where they think problems can arise. Formerip (talk) 20:08, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It can arise for example in relation to names of historical persons or ethnic groups that were previously known by an incorrect, mangled or derogatory name but where historians or ethnologists have since adopted another convention - often the earlier name lives on in popular works and things named after the earlier name and will have higher frequencies of overall usage even when they no longer appear in recent literature about the subjects. I am of course coming from a specific discussion that I have in mind but I am not going to link to it because I want this to be a more general discussion of policy, not about that specific case.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Neither - WP:COMMONNAME is not about laymen vs specialists. When the policy uses the word "common" it is talking about frequency of usage, not the academic status of the person using it. COMMONNAME calls for an examination of all reliable sources (specialist and lay). We are looking to see the frequency of usage in reliable sources that discuss the topic, regardless of whether those sources are "lay" or "specialist". If it is clear that one term is used significantly more frequently than other terms, we use that term in our articles. We don't actually care whether that term comes from "laymen" or "specialists" (and it is important to note that sometimes the specialist term actually can be used more frequently... the prime example is in our flora articles... where layman's names for flowers is very localized, but the "scientific" name is universal).

Now, when usage is mixed, and a true COMMONNAME can not be determined, I would certainly give more weight to specialist's terms than to laymen's terms... and that weight might make a good tie breaker. But the point is that we don't give an automatic preference to either. Blueboar (talk) 20:55, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with your notion that WP:COMMONNAME is about frequency - it is about frequency within the domain of relevant knowledge and it weighs frequency against a number of other concerns (I also disagree with the idea of reliable lay sources - at least in my field there is no such thing). User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe newspapers, for example, would be reliable lay sources. It’s not uncommon for the reporter of a story to not be a highly educated expert on the subject of the story. —Frungi (talk) 01:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah, true for some topics news could be considered a reliable source. Not for history topics though.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Neither – while I agree that WP:COMMONNAME is widely abused and inappropriately "evoked", I don't think trying to make it more prescriptive will help. It is just one strategy in support of recognizability and naturalness. Sometimes a layman's term is more natural or recognizable than a specialist's term, but we deal with those in a variety of ways in different domains, sometimes leaning one way or the other. Dicklyon (talk) 21:17, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
• Neither – there is a need to clarify the way that WP:COMMONNAME should be used, but this isn't it. The subsection title is "Use commonly recognizable names". It expands on one of the five criteria, recognizability, to be balanced by editors in choosing an article title. The problem, as I see it, is that some editors interpret "COMMONNAME" as trumping the other four criteria, regardless of how they decide on what is "common". I agree with Dicklyon: trying to be more prescriptive isn't the answer. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Well... to quibble COMMONNAME isn't just a way to determine Recognizability... it helps to determine Naturalness as well (since the most Recognizable name is also likely to be considered the most natural). That's why it is such a good tool for determining the best article title, it hits what are usually considered the two most important of the five principles. Blueboar (talk) 23:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

"Usually considered" by whom? Not by me. The most important should be Precision. When editors choose common but ambiguous titles we end up with more and more article titles with parenthesised disambiguation, which helps no-one as far as I can see, and certainly doesn't lead to Naturalness. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:25, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Neither - COMMONNAME isnt a trump card, its to be weighed up against other options, and alot of other things come into play, such as: ambiguity, inaccuracy, non-neutrality, vulgarity or pedantry. This is exactly why we have numerous naming conventions for specific problem areas. I think we need to be much clearer about this aswell. -- Nbound (talk) 22:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Another quibble... both this policy and the NPOV policy actually implies that COMMONNAME does "trump" non-neutrality concerns. Blueboar (talk) 23:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

And if the common name is either incorrect or confusing - what then? Also NPOV doesnt imply any such thing, the common name isnt necessarily free from POV problems (it often is, which is why common name can help; but not always). -- Nbound (talk) 00:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

It is not clear to me if you think that articles such as the Boston Massacre and the Patriot (American Revolution) should be moved because they are not neutral? The English Civil War was clearly a civil war in the way few are, so should the American Civil War be renamed War Between the States in the interests of NPOV as that is more accurate and less biased name than Civil War.-- PBS (talk) 10:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Is there anyone actually calling either of those wars the things you said, probably not... if all sources are in agreeance to a name there, isnt any NPOV issue. if its a contentious issue, there may be a reason to choose a neutrally worded name. For example, some kind of issue between two religious groups, one side might refer to it by a negative name, one side might by a positive name, it may be best to choose a name from the middleground, as long as it is reasonably obviously referring to the thing in question. And as always, with any WP rule, use common sense! - furthermore there are other reasons (some listed above) why other names may be chosen over the "common name" -- Nbound (talk) 08:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I am a little surprised at the "neither" comments - given that I didn't phrase the question as either-or. I also didn't propose being prescriptive, merely clarifying the policy wording so that it becomes LESS prescriptive by clearly stating that COMMONNAME does not necessarily privilege overall frequency over frequency of use within the relevant domain of knowledge. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
• I believe that COMMONNAME is:
  • One tool among many, and not always the best tool.
  • Best interpreted in reference to the frequency in high-quality and English-language reliable sources, not all sources or all webpages.
  • Not an excuse to choose inaccurate, imprecise, or confusing titles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:24, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
• Neither it has to be the most common usage in reliable sources. This does not mean that the sources are restricted to specialist publications, only that the source be reliable. WP:JARGON clearly indicates we should not be restricted to just specialist publications (such as publications not in English, which is being used to move articles around, because it is the "original language" source). -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 04:58, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

That "it has to be" is the sort of problem I was referring to. Dicklyon (talk) 05:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. It all depends on the topic, how different usage is between specialized and non-specialized publications, precisely how specialized the publications are, etc. An article about some aspect of nuclear physics which is rarely covered in the popular media is quite different from an article about a well known historical event, for example. There is no substitute for editorial judgement; no "magic formula" which will avoid the need for discussion in problem cases. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:25, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:JARGON does not cover it as it is a MOS guideline and is neither part of the AT policy of its naming conventions (guidelines). It is covered in the AT policy by "Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject will recognize" (my emphasis). -- PBS (talk) 10:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

What does it mean to be familiar with? To me it means to have read reliable sources about the topic written by experts. Reading a book by an expert doesn't make you a specialist but it makes you familiar with specialist usage.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Theres going to be examples where lay people with an interest will not recognise article titles, purely because a topic has been drilled down far enough that no lay person could be expected to know about it. Another possibility is that a lay persons concept or idea of something could be at best ambiguous; or at worst completely incorrect. As has been said by many here, these policies, especially common name, arent catchall rules, they are tools. Apply common sense and weigh up article names using any and all criteria available; including, but not limited to common name. -- Nbound (talk) 21:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• This discussion has been cited here. The citation appears to represent contributors here User:WhatamIdoing User:Dicklyon 76.65.128.222 User:Maunus User:FormerIP User:Nbound User:Blueboar User:Frungi as supporting that the basic-ASCII html version of an East European name is the WP:COMMONNAME for that person. For all I know it's quite possible that some of the editors in the discussion here do believe that the basic-ASCII html version of an East European name is the WP:COMMONNAME for that person, however I see it nowhere in the discussion here, and we just added François Mitterrand (which is unicode, not basic-ASCII) to WP:COMMONNAME partly to prevent exactly this kind of misunderstanding. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

It is pretty amazing how far PBS can twist a conversation and mention it for what it's not! Dicklyon (talk) 05:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, our Mitterrand example intentionally says nothing about the ASCII vs Unicode issue... The example given is "François Mitterrand (not: François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand)"... it is an example of where a person's first and last names are commonly used, but the full name (with middle names included) is not. Blueboar (talk) 18:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Blueboar, no it doesn't, but as I said it was added partly to prevent exactly this kind of misunderstanding. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:41, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I remember the discussion... you may have had that intent in mind, but I am not sure the rest of us had the same intent. (I know I didn't). Blueboar (talk) 00:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it was clear you didn't. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, if the two people who were primarily involved in adding the Mitterand example were/are not in agreement as to its intent... is there any wonder that that others disagree as to its intent? Blueboar (talk) 14:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Keep the recommendation that it be based on usage by Reliable Sources (which can include popular sources such as newspapers). To base it on general lay usage (however measured - Google hits, ngrams, polls, etc.) rather than Reliable Sources would degrade the encyclopedia. You would wind up with articles titled "Princess Di" and "A-Rod". You might as well base the encyclopedia on a Family Feud model, where the winning answer was based on "Survey says...." even if it was factually incorrect. --MelanieN (talk) 17:17, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Parenthesis in title

Is there a rule that a parenthetical description can be used in titles only for the purpose of disambiguation? Cynwolfe (talk) 14:16, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no rule on this one way or the other ... But I have to ask... Can you give us an example of a situation where you might want to add such parenthetical description? I would think adding parentheticals would result in a title that was not really recognizable, natural, or concise. Surely there would be a better title option that did not include the parenthetical. Blueboar (talk) 14:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt response. Yes, there's a sticky little problem that's come up. I'm preparing a post about it at the relevant project, and when I do, I'll leave a link here. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The problem is outlined at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome#Naming gens articles. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I've seen song names with a parenthetical part. Can't think of one right now. Dicklyon (talk) 15:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction and It's Only Rock 'n Roll (But I Like It) are a couple of examples. Matt Deres (talk) 11:24, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Those aren't parenthetical descriptions though. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I believe parentheses should only appear in titles of articles about titled works, when those works include parentheses: "Sweet Dreams (Are Made of This)". If the topic doesn't include parentheses, Misplaced Pages titles should only include them for disambiguation (WP:PRECISION). If the title-without-the-parenthetical isn't good enough to be the article title, a better title-without-parenthetical should be identified. The naming conventions don't explicitly forbid it, but they are contra-indicated (implicitly opted against) by the recognizability, naturalness, precision, and conciseness guidelines. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

And how does this address the issues raised at the link above in naming gens articles? It might be better to post specifics there. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I give up, how? Since this is a response to your top-level question here, I didn't realize I was committing to a response there (there being linked in your third-level reply) in an area with which I am not familiar. But feel free to adapt specifics from that response to the other discussion. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Another use I've seen for parens is to give unique titles to various articles that would otherwise have the same title. For example, we have Past tense, which describes the grammatical term, a DA page Past tense (disambiguation), and linked from there, several articles describing different creative works that are all called "Past tense". Since titles of creative works are not subject to copyright, there is no reason that several different works can't have the same title. Jeh (talk) 21:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

We don't give articles unique titles to protect copyright. We give articles unique titles to enable them to exist at all in the wiki system. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I understand that. Indeed, "to protect copyright" would be a pointless goal, because titles of creative works are not subject to copyright in the first place! I was simply pointing out that that (no copyrights on titles) is what allows multiple creative works to have the same title. And thereby require some sort of unique-ifying annotation in the titles of WP articles about them. Jeh (talk) 22:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Erm… I believe the practice you describe, Jeh, is called “disambiguation”. “To give unique titles to various articles that would otherwise have the same title” is pretty much the definition. —Frungi (talk) 05:59, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I know that. I was just giving an example reason for the need. We are in what a friend of mine calls "violent agreement". :) Jeh (talk) 11:41, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh. I was confused because you said “another use” when Cynwolfe’s question asked about uses other than disambiguation. —Frungi (talk) 17:51, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

As I said at the related discussion at MOSDAB, unless they're part of the name of the work, parentheticals are only used to distinguish from other articles of the same title. They shouldn't be used if the base name is available, which appears to be the case here. This is the point of WP:PRECISION. As JHJ says, if the base name is not usable for some reason, then a better title without the artificial parenthetical construction should be used instead.--Cúchullain /c 13:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

So what would be a better way to title the articles in question? Again, the issues are outlined at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome#Naming gens articles, where for nearly a week I've been unable to attract suggestions. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

i wouldn't worry about it in cases where there arent other articles of the same title, and just make it clear in the article itself. however, If the titles really aren't clear enough from the base name I'd suggest something longer that doesn't use parentheticals, like Gens Alfrania. --Cúchullain /c 22:51, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Nguyễn or Nguyen?

Talk:Nguyễn#Requested_move --B2C 06:22, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Diacritics in Latin alphabet European names titles

I've noted over the last 2 years that the WP:LOCALCONSENSUS of the little group of editors (some of whom are not notably active article space contributors) at WT:AT is out of line with the consensus of the community on the subject of full spelling of Latin alphabet European names. The local group here includes at least 1 of the most dedicated anti-diacritic campaigners on en.wp and a couple of editors who sympathize with the position, while at the same time 100% of en.wp's straightforward case Latin alphabet European BLPs use full diacritic unicode titles (except for 1 WP:POINTY exception). The dislocate between guideline and reality is both evident, and potentially disruptive, since the guideline re. (i.e. against) use of full spelling of Latin alphabet European names here occasionally generates confusion outside WP:AT itself.

For this reason the guidance here is probably going to have to go to RfC at some point to attempt to bring what WP:AT says into line with reality and near universal article-contributor consensus in the project. One small improvement that can be made now however, would be to correctly link to WP:Reliable sources. The bluelink is currently pipelinked away from WP:Reliable sources to WP:Verifiability, which is a different issue. I propose to correct the pipelink to direct to the correct page. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:56, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with Unicode or fonts. Those are underware. It's about diacritics. Unicode also includes Cyrillic and Greek and CJK characters among others, but we try to limit ourselves to the Roman alphabet, because those are the characters that English readers have some familiarity with, and can cope with even if they don't know what the diacritics mean. I agree that we should usually use them, except when a name has become very commonly adopted into English without as an exonym. Not all cases will be easy to decide. Dicklyon (talk) 02:14, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dicklyon, evidently I was using "unicode" as shorthand, I have changed the above to read full spelling of Latin alphabet European names, since that is what is meant. Given that 100% of BLPs (minus 1) are full spelling of Latin alphabet European BLP names, do you believe that those circa 500,000 BLPs appear in high-MOS full diacritic unicode (glossy hardback academic books) more often than they appear in html sources like sports websites? In other words, are en.wp editors following the instruction to count the number of appearances in high-MOS sources vs. number of appearances in low-MOS sources? Take Lech Wałęsa, a typical example, does that title agree with the guideline here to count appearances in high-MOS (10) and low-MOS (12,400) sources? Is the guideline here out of line with article reality or not? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Diacritics does not mean non-English letters. Diacritic modified English letters are not the same thing as full spelling of Latin alphabet European names, since (1) the true Latin alphabet is smaller than the English alphabet by a few letters, (2) European Latin-derived alphabets contain several characters from non-Latin alphabets, or which do not exist in English alphabets at all. ETH, THORN and ESZETT come to mind as the most prominent examples of non-English letters that are not diacritic modified letters. They clearly are not mostly recognizable by most English language users from outside of Europe itself. The ESZETT looks like a B or Beta and clearly engenders confusion, and the lowercase ETH isn't what most people would think it is (a lower case "O" with an accent) so clearly engendering confusion. THORN looks like someone did a p/d/q incorrectly, which can't happen on a computer, so is uninterpretable. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi 76.65.128.222, yes, I think everyone knows this, I think everyone also knows that there are cases such as eszett which are not straightforward cases. What I said above is that "100% of en.wp's straightforward case Latin alphabet European BLPs use unicode titles." Is what I said correct or not? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of (re-)renaming this section to something that's hopefully unambiguous and precise. This isn't about the use of the full set of characters available under Unicode, or the use of any particular alphabet; this is about whether we can/should use diacritics in titles.

And while we're at it: IIO, if I'm not mistaken, 100% of Misplaced Pages's everything uses Unicode characters, because the site itself uses UTF-8. If you tried to use anything else, it would not display correctly. —Frungi (talk) 06:53, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello Frungi

You are correct in your question, I can confirm that 100% of wikipedia uses unicode characters, because the site itself uses UTF-8, however not all sports websites cited as sources make full use of the possibilities of unicode.

And, no it's not about we can/should use diacritics in titles, we already do - my question is does anyone object to correctly pipelinking WP:reliable sources? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

That correction seems entirely uncontroversial, but I don't see such a link in this policy. Are you sure you've got the right page? Or maybe I'm just missing it. —Frungi (talk) 07:12, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Frungi, yes, you are right, my mistake, on this page WP:UE "reliable sources" is not linked/pipelinked at all, it is 'dead' black text. I was confusing WP:UE with WP:EN, where it is so pipelinked, and based on your comment above I have made this edit there and noted on Talk there. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:21, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The linkage should be to WP:SOURCES that is the policy on reliable sources. It should not be linking to guidelines. This page used to point to WP:SOURCES I am not sure when that was changed but I propose that it is changed back. -- PBS (talk) 13:43, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The linkage was changed here at 16:00, 17 August 2010. -- PBS (talk) 14:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

With the telling editsummary "to avoid creative misinterpretations". Agathoclea (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Please expand on you cryptic remark. -- PBS (talk) 15:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Frungi, I made the edit there as per your "entirely controversial" comment and was reverted by PBS. As I said I believe there's a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS of a small group of editors at WP:UE and WP:EN/WP:DIACRITICS who are at odds with the project as a whole on this issue and that an RfC will probably be necessary to remove the disruption caused by having a guideline WP:POINTedly at odds with article title reality. But in the meantime, how many editors here in addition to PBS object to bluelink reliable sources actually linking to WP:Reliable sources both in WP:UE (here) and WP:EN (there)? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:44, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

As WP:SOURCES points to WP:RS "for further information," I would not object to the text "reliable sources" linking to either one. But I wonder why such a trivial matter as which project page is linked seems to be such a large focus of what seems like it should be a discussion about how articles should be titled. Shouldn't these be two separate discussions to avoid confusion and distraction? —Frungi (talk) 06:59, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Frungi, in an ideal world yes. However given the WP:LOCALCONSENSUS problem at this Talk page I think it's best to be upfront about a principal reason for wanting "reliable sources" bluelink to actually lead to WP:Reliable sources. But this should be a separate discussion and is. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:26, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Frungi, for a long time WP:V carried a statement that when WP:V and WP:RS appeared to contradict each other WP:V took precedence. This (AT) is a policy page: it is better that it links to WP:SOURCES as section in the policy WP:V, than to a guideline WP:RS so that there is no confusion over what reliable sources means. -- PBS (talk) 22:55, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Frungi, I won't waste too much time on this as this is just 2 pages (WP:UE and WP:EN) and two statements which are largely ignored by the editing community since they conflict with article title reality and the overwhelming community consensus. Pace PBS' comments there is now confusion about what reliable sources means, which is why WP:UE and WP:EN mention of "reliable sources" actually linking to WP:Reliable sources would be helpful. Allowing readers to click through from bluelink mention "reliable sources" to see what WP:Reliable sources actually says would confirm that article title reality is in line with WP:Reliable sources definition of WP:Reliable sources as WP:RS "sources reliable for the statement being made", and head off the disruptive interpretation that (e.g.) sources which do not carry French accents are reliable sources for the spelling of French names.

It's unfortunate that a number of editors at WP:UE and WP:EN should have taken up such an antagonistic position against article title reality, whether that is in denial of that reality, or in deliberately wording guidelines to conflict with that reality. But it seems no one is greatly concerned - article contributors ignore the guideline, and the writers of the guideline ignore article contributors. So the situation can be left. This may not be the only example of a MOS guideline which is wildly out of touch with article reality. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:15, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Repost from January

Mike Reid (American football) — should it have that name or a more specific name? I mean, he seems to be as known for his singing and songwriting, if not moreso. Should the article name give weight to both, or more to the singer-songwriter part?

I asked this question before, and someone suggested the talk page. However, the talk page hasn't been touched since 2008, so I'm asking here to get more traffic. Ten Pound Hammer • 19:25, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yoo hoo? Anyone here? Ten Pound Hammer • 09:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

In the Mike Reid dab, there are two other American football players, Michael Reid (linebacker) and Mike Reid (safety), though the latter is a red link. So Mike Reid (American football) doesn't fully disambiguate, unless he is the clear primary topic among football players. Defensive lineman is a common disambiguator, e.g., Mike Martin (defensive lineman). Though his 2× Pro Bowl selection may be sufficient to support him as PT in football. A quick glance at his bio shows that his football and music careers both were in their prime for about 3 – 5 years, so perhaps picking a primary career isn't that easy. But the article puts {{Infobox NFL player}} at the top rather than {{Infobox musical artist}}, implying that football was the primary career. I don't know if there is any precedent for double-career disambiguation, but I wouldn't object to Mike Reid (defensive lineman and musician). Perhaps he should have a customized infobox which combines the elements of {{Infobox NFL player}} and {{Infobox musical artist}}. You can draw more traffic to the talk page by starting a {{subst:Move}} discussion there. Just use a question mark for the proposed new title if you want the discussion to be more open-ended and want to use the discussion to decide which title is best. Lots of editors watch the discussions at WP:RM. – Wbm1058 (talk) 11:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:CT vs. Usage in Reliable Sources... who wins?

Talk:Journey_Through_the_Decade#Requested_move_04_August_2013

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