Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:12, 19 June 2013

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy.

I will be taking a major wikibreak from July 1 to July 21. During that time I intend to essentially close this page, and I intend to avoid all Misplaced Pages work other than anything urgent or important that Arbcom members ask me to do.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:57, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

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Status of edit-conflict technology

As expected with edit-conflicts being considered a worldwide problem, I have found many groups who have tried various new algorithms to merge multiple revisions and auto-correct for edit-conflicts, as noted in article "Merge (revision control)" such as "weave merge". Plus, as could be expected with new technology, some algorithms are far beyond what is needed to simply append 2 replies at the same line number (and some complex merge algorithms are slow). Yet, the implications of the technology are exciting long-term; for example, it would be great if 5 editors changed a page, and the 3rd editor moved paragraph #7 to be paragraph #12, when meanwhile editor 5 changed old paragraph #7, and the merged updates were auto-moved to appear within #12. However, for now, the most-frustrating edit-conflicts are 2-reply conflicts (at the same line number) or simple changes to adjacent lines, which are much easier to merge. I have been looking at ways to merge most of Misplaced Pages's 2-reply conflicts, in reading a copy of the C-language source code for "diff3" (diff3.c at http://ftp.cc.uoc.gr/mirrors/OpenBSD/src/usr.bin/rcs/diff3.c). Originally, diff3 was designed to only merge the separate so-called "hunks" of text (separated by 1 or 2 unchanged lines), but it can already show 2 sets of lines in conflict at the same line number (called "overlaps"?), which is the first step to inserting both sets as 2 adjacent replies, in the merged revision. Although future pages could be encoded as complex document structures, with internal line id-codes, those structures are not needed for the 99.99% of edits which do not move paragraphs quickly. I think some simple changes to diff3.c could resolve 95% (or 98% perhaps?) of all recent edit-conflicts. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:24, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

• Tests confirm 1-line separation avoids edit-conflicts: Currently, the use of diff3, to merge multiple changes to the same page, is set to allow one-line separation between so-called "hunks" of changed lines, without causing "overlaps" with lines added above/below the separator line. I ran tests yesterday to confirm that even a blank line (extra newline separator), between two text lines allows them to both be changed by different editors at the same time. So, I have added the techniques of "text-separators" and "reply-separators" into essay "wp:Avoiding edit-conflicts" where using an HTML comment as separator ("<!--sentence below-->") will allow two sentences (or text lines) in the same paragraph to both be modified, during a flurry of busy editing, even though they can appear as modified within the same line of formatted text, once the intervening HTML comment is bypassed during a reformat. More later. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:44, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

• VisualEditor got edit-conflict on slightest change and lost all text: The wp:VisualEditor (as of 17 June 2013) cannot handle any interim edits to the same page. The slightest edit-conflict is completely fatal, losing all changes so the page source shows only one word: "undefined". I tried several times to see how the WYSIWYG VisualEditor would react to interim changes by another username, and the results were a total disaster, where the slightest changes triggered edit-conflict against the interim revision (but the wikitext editor did auto-correct and merge changes into the interim revision). Plus, when I clicked "manual fix for edit conflict" then the VisualEditor showed the text of the edited page as one word: "undefined" and I was not even able to copy/paste any of the attempted changes for saving elsewhere. I think users will not react well to an edit-screen which craters on the slightest change, and then pretends there is a "manual" method for the user to salvage the VisualEditor session, which instead presents the one word "undefined" as the entire result of their keystrokes. -Wikid77 12:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Might be more constructive to mention that at the Visual Editor feedback page, rather than here. DoctorKubla (talk) 14:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I think they already know about the major problems with wp:VE, such as fatal edit-conflicts for any prior change, but are hoping to release them within a few days on many thousands of new, unsuspecting users to see the impacts. I imagine the new users will react with horror, as typical, getting edit-conflict trying to update major popular articles and then some, who do not quit, will realize there are fewer conflicts when working on obscure pages which no one edits (or reads), so the major pages are left to rot and fester with numerous errors because collaboration to fix text is thwarted by edit-conflicts. I have discussed edit-conflicts with several developers, but they seem unconcerned about the impacts, even thinking that 2 people editing the same line might make the exact same rare addition and be thankful that it was rejected as an edit-conflict, lest someone be left to edit the page to remove the rare duplicated text, as better to have all adjacent edits be rejected than risk one in 10,000 might add the same text without being stopped as an edit-conflict. On the surface, it seems like people who rationalize the benefits of being lazy, such as, "What if we did that work today and lightning struck or there was a fire which ruined it 10 minutes afterward..." It is interesting to see why things do not get improved more quickly, but instead often take years to make progress. -Wikid77 22:25, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad's "special enforcement on biographies of living persons" action

Jimbo, as you probably already know, Newyorkbrad has imposed a topic ban on Russavia whereby he is "indefinitely topic-banned and prohibited from making any edit relating directly or indirectly to Jimmy Wales". Newyorkbrad has cited the "special enforcement on biographies of living persons" section of a 2008 ArbCom case which allows a wide range of administrative action in relation to enforcing WP:BLP. While I suspect that you and I are in complete agreement about Russavia's intentions here, I am concerned by Newyorkbrad's action for three reasons.

One, the "special enforcement" provision calls for "counselling" and "warning" users who violate WP:BLP. This does not appear to have been done. In fact, it looks like Newyorkbrad is imposing this sanction to prevent Russavia from doing something that he has not yet done (i.e., putting the much discussed image of you in a live article).

Two, I tried for months to have an editor topic banned from the biography of a person with whom they had an off-wiki dispute. Despite clear evidence of malice and the support of other editors, nothing was done until off-wiki actions lead to ArbCom banning that user entirely. I am aware of other, similar cases. If you were not the "living person" involved here, I very much doubt that this sanction would have been imposed. I am concerned that Newyorkbrad's action will simply reinforce the apparently accurate perception that the rules work one way for WP insiders and another way for biography subjects.

Third, this sanction is limited to the English-language WP. Russavia has stated that he intends to have the Pricasso article translated into other languages, just as he did with the Polandball article. I fully expect that if the images are deleted from Commons he will have them uploaded to each individual project. The sanction here does nothing to prevent that.

I believe that the correct way to deal with this situation is not the application of a local sanction, but the application of a project-wide ban under the WMF's "terms of use". Russavia appears to be violating one or more parts of Section 4 ("Refraining from Certain Activities"). I do not know how often the terms of use are actually used to ban users, but if Russavia is involved in hostile environment sexual harassment, as you claim, he should be removed from the project entirely, not topic banned from harassing you but otherwise allowed to continue his activities. I hope that the Qworty incident has at least taught us this much. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

the apparently accurate perception that the rules work one way for WP insiders and another way for biography subjects

It's not necessarily inappropriate for the rules to work differently. WP editors shouldn't be harassing anybody, but I don't see that it is wrong to take an approach which is specifically about harassment within the community (except that maybe BLP is not the correct policy area to enforce under). In this case, Russavia has allegedly targeted a WP editor (assuming it is true that this is what he has done). If he had asked for a painting of the Pope or Britney Spears, I think it is obvious that the issue would not be the same. Formerip (talk) 23:49, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Can you point to a diff where Russavia has said that he intends to translate the article into other languages? --Conti|✉ 23:50, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

here.76.126.142.59 (talk) 23:53, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! --Conti|✉ 23:54, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

"And he will soon have an article on enwp, once en:User:Russavia/Pricasso is unprotected after it was protected due to so-called BLP concerns. And I have arranged for it to be translated into multiple other languages too." Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:56, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

A promise which is, IMHO, deliberately destructive in intent and effect. Collect (talk) 00:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Isn't this essentially the same thing he did with that "Polandball" nonsense, spread it like a bad seed across multiple language wikis? This is quite a pattern this user is establishing. Tarc (talk) 00:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Honestly I am more concerned about this admission by Russavia "I would be embarrassed to go back to an artist who has donated their time and provided free content to this project and to ask them to donate yet more time and free content. And we as a project should be ashamed and embarrassed that this is even an issue. So count me out of that; I am not going to insult a notable artist by insisting that his art is not good enough for us. Russavia (talk) 09:53, 16 June 2013 (UTC) " . As Tarc mentioned above "That's important there; "I would be embarrassed to go back..." and "...ask them to donate yet more time and free content." I believe that is the admission we were looking for, regarding the origin of the picture in question." I agree with him.

Also see another interesting statement "i've written sexual harassment and equal opportunity policy professionally -- jimmy's claim of sexual harassment is libellous and without merit - he also needs to deal with those who HAVE trolled him, and stop playing the victim by lying about me" 76.126.142.59 (talk) 00:14, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It is a longstanding tradition to use Wiki-culture in depictions of novel concepts.   — C M B J   00:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Please note this Commons deletion discussion in which Russavia is being accused of harassing User:Starscream in a Polandball cartoon. I do not know if there is any merit to this accusation, but Newyorkbrad's sanction has no effect on Commons or on Russavia's actions towards that user here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Is there a WMF-level equivalent of WP:ANI? Cla68 (talk) 01:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It's right here. Count Iblis (talk) 12:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

• Policy - all Misplaced Pages policy - is utterly irrelevant here. If a BLP is about a Bad Person, like "Qworty", you take out his complete list of books and make the article mostly about him getting banned from Misplaced Pages to prove revenge editing is wrong. Then you use the new restrictions you made in response to him to punish an editor for getting an artist to submit free content. Now you want Russavia banned for getting other-language translations made, of an article that many of his detractors have even admitted is about a notable person who ought to be covered. Or for saying that he talked to an artist in order to get an OTRS ticket, which in the new Misplaced Pages is an admission of any conspiracy one cares to allege. Wnt (talk) 01:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Penis art is interesting and artists that do it are potentially notable. But even the likes of you can't be so shortsighted to miss the point that it is rather on the vulgar side, and that subjects of such paintings aren't always going to greet it warmly. It becomes more problematic when one commissions such an image for no other reason than to troll Jimbo. Tarc (talk) 02:34, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
• Polandball is used to denigrate and mock Polish people. Pricasso is used to denigrate and mock Jimbo. It is not surprising that such abuse occurs because the open nature of Misplaced Pages attracts exhibitionists and others with an agenda. Moreover, if the community fails to enforce not an exercise in free speech, we will be overrun with those using every opportunity to push their "right" to do whatever they damn well please because of their human rights. Russavia should find another free website from which to troll, and Wnt should find another free website to pursue their ideals of liberty. Johnuniq (talk) 06:26, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Russavia and Wnt are among our best contributors and ideological disagreements do not justify attacks on their worth.   — C M B J   09:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

If editors get a pass for reprehensible behavior simply because they have lots of good edits... well, that's a bit bothersome. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 12:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

So far as I know my only "reprehensible behavior" here has been to take the opposite position from you in this discussion. Wnt (talk) 16:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Then perhaps Russavia should drop his trolling/harassment campaign and return to being a productive contributor? Resolute 13:04, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Right, and it also helps if the other side learns to ignore these things a bit more. If one side is going to play the role of extremist Muslims and the other side is going to play the role of the people who want to make their point by burning Korans or by making Mohammed cartoons, then that's asking for problems. Count Iblis (talk) 13:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

"Vested editors" no longer get automatic free passes on the sole basis of their contributions. There are still some that can be the proverbial WP:DICK while they go about editing, but as long as they're largely in the right about whatever it is that they felt the need to be dickish about, that's the ticket. Ask ScienceApologist, Betacommand, and Rich Farmbrough how it goes when one doesn't meet all the criteria. Tarc (talk) 15:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

They found themselves fighting a consensus against their position and they refused to back down. In this case, the consensus isn't clear, and Russavia has backed down by removing Jimbo's painting from the article. Count Iblis (talk) 16:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Russavia did not remove the image from the article. In fact, Russavia edit warred to keep the image in the article, and has only been stopped by a full protection and subsequent topic ban. --Conti|✉ 16:15, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and that's why this is discussed. But the skirmish has ended, there is a cease fire. It's not that Russavia is continuing the war and we're asking ArbCom for military intervention to put a stop to it. Count Iblis (talk) 16:26, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Count Iblis, I am not suggesting that ArbCom do anything. On the contrary, I am suggesting that this is a matter best handled by the WMF and not by local admins. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

NewYorkBrad IMO did the right thing and if he didn't step up, who would've? I think it is always, in these cases, to err on the side of doing something instead of talking and talking. Havent we talked about Russavia enough? Just like everything around here, when we talk about something it seems the more we talk the less likely we are to do something.Camelbinky (talk) 20:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Russiavia may or may not ought to be admonished depending on his original intent, but that still does not justify attacks on his worthfulness, and I do not recall a time when Wnt was not within his right in a discussion yet his/her value was being attacked equally. I also cannot envision handling of Rich Farmbrough as being a model for comparison, as it still bothers me that I consciously turned a blind eye to his treatment in fear of retribution.   — C M B J   22:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

We could employ the principal of the wisdom of crowds to determin their worth. I'll start the ball rolling by saying that as far as I'm concerned both are priceless. Your turn. John lilburne (talk) 23:26, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Responding to the original post from Delicious Carbuncle ("DC"). My apologies for the delay in responding, but as noted on my talkpage, I was offline at a family event last night.

On my talkpage, Russavia has indicated that while he obviously disagrees with the restriction I imposed, he is not challenging it; he actually recommended that I not comment here. Therefore, I'm not going to get into a discussion of the basis for the specific restriction, nor of the reasons I believed Russavia had been sufficiently warned before I imposed it, but will focus on the broader issues.

I read DC's post as making two main points. The first is that the restriction I imposed could prove ineffectual and there should instead be a broader multi-project restriction. The second is that given that it was Jimmy Wales who was the target in this instance, I was misguided in imposing any restriction at all. I can understand both of these points. However, they are pretty much mutually exclusive.

In deciding to deal with this situation, I could only choose from the available options. I'm an administrator on the English Misplaced Pages. I have no role or participation (and am certainly not an administrator) on Commons or any other language project. Hence, my choices were to impose a restriction on English Misplaced Pages, or to do nothing at all. I did what I could, and recommended that the other projects consider doing the same.

DC opines that we would be better off dealing with certain types of issues on a basis applicable to all WMF sites, rather than on one project or project-by-project. To a certain extent I agree with him. However, the Wikimedia communities (on Meta, Commons, and elsewhere) have been very resistant to this type of approach. For example, global bans, even of users who are serially problematic across multiple projects, remain extremely controversial and have been implemented only rarely. And the Wikimedia Foundation Office has also been very reluctant to intervene except in genuinely extreme circumstances. (Incidentally, whether or not it would be desirable for the Office to become more pro-active in some areas, for some of the very reasons DC gives, addressing perceived on-wiki harassment of Jimbo Wales might not have been an ideal place to start.)

The other point DC raises is that by taking a BLP enforcement action relating to Jimbo, I added to the impression that "insiders" are more equal than others in being protected from BLP problems. I anticipated this criticism in the first paragraph of my post to Russavia, in which I pointed out that as a founder of Misplaced Pages, Jimmy Wales is not entitled to greater protection under the BLP policy—but he is not entitled to lesser protection, either. That remains my view.

Sometimes it is difficult to decide what is or is not a BLP violation, what is or is not an undue invasion of an individual's personal privacy, what constitutes a misuse of Misplaced Pages in order to harass someone. We have community processes intended to address such cases. In this instance, without reopening the dispute that Russavia is content to leave closed, I did not consider this a difficult case. I would like to think that I would have reacted as I did no matter what living person was being made the subject, especially over his express objection and after the intervention of at least one other administrator, of this particular form of depiction. The fact that Jimmy was involved helped publicize awareness of the issue, both on-wiki and on an external site, but did not change the fundamental nature of the problem or what should be done to solve it.

DC, I do not know which specific incident you are referring to that lingered far too long before being resolved (please feel free to refresh my memory, perhaps on my talkpage). However, you do not need to convince me that—despite years of effort and some significant improvements—we still need to do a better job in promptly redressing BLP violations, including not only false or defamatory content, but privacy-invading and harassing content. I have written and spoken about these issues extensively, on-wiki and off, for six and one-half years and I don't think there's any doubt as to my views on this subject. Jimmy Wales is far from the only person I have tried to safeguard from BLP violations, nor will he be the last, although neither I nor any other individual has the time or ability to solve all of these problems on his or her own.

I would be glad for this unfortunate incident, in which I took what I perceived as a proportionate and timely action to avoid inappropriate edits concerning a living person who happened to be Jimmy Wales, to serve as yet another reminder that we must act timely and decisively to protect any and every other living person who may become the subject of abusive treatment on this site. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say that, until Commons is totally restructured and its independency of administration is stripped away, there's nothing we can do to prevent such harassment which happened off-project. Commons can't be independent due to the simple fact that its content is affecting its sister projects directly. If decisiveness is what required to right the wrong, shut down Commons immediately until we have a better solution to share media across all sister projects with better regulation than Commons currently has. Ah yes, I have little faith in the deletion of the portrait and video, even though I've voiced for deletion in Commons already. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:46, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad, you say that "the Wikimedia communities (on Meta, Commons, and elsewhere) have been very resistant to this type of approach" (global bans). Leaving aside the fact that I am explicitly suggesting that this be handled by the WMF as a violation of the terms of use and not by the community, I have to suggest that the larger Community has not expressed any opinion, pro or con, about global bans. There was a discussion on Meta, but my recollection is that it had very few participants and most of those seemed to have been attracted there from Commons following the office action against Beta M. I note that accounts are regularly "locked" without any fuss or acrimony. I would prefer that this case involved neither Jimbo (since he is the consummate "insider") nor Russavia (since I have a history with him) but if an editor (any editor) has a legitimate claim that another editor (any editor) is harassing them, those claims should be taken seriously by the WMF and if there is merit to those claims, the harasser should be removed from all WMF projects. Topic bans or blocks on a single project are not sufficient to prevent other editors from being exposed to the same type of harassment. I do not know if this particular case rises to the level necessary for the WMF to act, but if Jimbo's claims are correct then anything other than removing Russavia entirely would seem to be negligent in protecting other users. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:56, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Let's be clear about this. Russavia allegedly helped persuade Pricasso to paint an image of Jimbo. Now suppose we knew for sure that he had commissioned or conspired to produce this artwork. Then his alleged TOS violation would have been committed entirely off-wiki. The logical consequence of this is that Misplaced Pages could begin preparing a list of thousands of people to globally-lock who have never even made a single edit on Misplaced Pages, on the basis that they have denigrated someone who has at some point in the past; our admins would be Arbiters To The World, defending Wikipedians over non-Wikipedians. Admittedly that is all logically inherent from the incorrect verdict on Michaeldsuarez (and I say this, as you recall, despite my belief that the person he was mocking was being badly wronged and had a right to a few modestly nasty comments about off-wiki persecutors without being declared "uncivil") The alternative option is that we recognize that the TOS about harassment is about on-wiki activities, not the whole wide world. If Russavia's actions were problematic, which I do not accept, then they at least would be solely the concern of the project on which they were made. Wnt (talk) 15:16, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

If Russavia commissioned that portrait and hung it in his home, that would be off-wiki. Jimbo would neither know nor care. Uploading the image and video to Commons and using those in an article here brought it on-wiki. I have no doubt that Russavia knew that this would be provocative. based on his pattern of behaviour, I have no doubt that Russavia will attempt to continue the provocation elsewhere now that he is blocked here. Pretending that actions made on Commons or other WMF projects have no bearing on issues here is an idea that should have been abandoned long ago. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:27, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

An open honest question to the Community-at-Large

It is a perennial topic, but this isn't about the topic, this is about getting more insight into why editors feel so vehemently about this issue in favor of the viewpoint of the topic that I don't understand. The topic is- mentioning people (BLP and dead) as Jews. Why do people seem to get so emotional and vehemently opposed to Jews being mentioned as Jews? Addendum to the question if someone wishes to address this second question or just the first or both- Why do some people get so mad when it comes to Jews self-identifying as an ethnic group and instead insist that Jews are only a religion? (As far as I know no one gets that upset about "ethnic Muslims" in places like Bosnia, though perhaps that argument on WP happens where I don't read). I hope the comments (and responses to those comments) stay positive and on-topic to that own editor's reasoning and doesn't get insulting about the topic or other editors or try to show why someone is "wrong". Just trying to understand why some people hate people being labeled as Jews, especially when it is Jews who tend to be the most supportive of labeling (which makes it unlikely all the labeling is about anti-semites wanting to "out" Jews, Sandy Koufax was quite open about being Jewish and not playing on the Sabbath, if alive today he'd probably insist on being labeled as a Jew on Misplaced Pages).Camelbinky (talk) 20:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

• I don't know if he'd insist on being labeled "Jewish", but I'm pretty sure he'd insist on being labeled "alive". --64.85.215.75 (talk) 17:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The policy is that self-identification is what counts. There are, indeed, people with Jewish ancestry who do not wish to be labeled as "Jewish" just as there are those who are of Muslim ancestry who do not wish to be labeled as Muslim. If a person does not wish an ethnic, religious, national, sexual or other label, then it is reasonable for Misplaced Pages to follow suit. This has absolutely zilch to do with anti-anthingism at all -- it is a reasonable stance for Misplaced Pages to take, and the Misplaced Pages community has taken that stance. Sandy Koufax is, indeed, noted as "Jewish" in his BLP. Collect (talk) 20:38, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It's funny you should bring this up, as I just did a quick review of active NHL hockey players, and found that someone went through and made a big point out of highlighting quite prominently any player who is Jewish. So I'd take the question and flip it - why do some feel so vehemently about the need to label everyone as Jewish? Particularly since we often don't care if a player is Christian or what their cultural ancestry is. So I would say your question is incorrectly framed, as it can apply to both sides. For myself, I don't much care (I didn't revert or remove any of those additions, except where it resulted in redundant statements), but I think Collect is right. If a person identifies as something, it can be mentioned. If they do not, then it should not. Fortunately in my case, the editor adequately utilized references. Resolute 20:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Camelbinky, I can only answer for myself, but I do not believe that religious belief is something that generally belongs in a biography. In some cases, a person's belief is part of the reason that they are well-known or plays an important role in their life, but generally it seems to be only a way to pigeonhole people. If someone is open about their religious belief (whatever it may be) and it is relevant to that person's notability, I have no problem if it is included in an article. It becomes an issue when editors insist on labeling someone when there is no clear statement from the subject themselves about their religious belief or if the subject's religious belief is not directly relevant to their notability. The fact that someone can be considered "a religious Jew" or "an ethnic Jew" just makes this problem worse since either can be used to label someone as "Jewish" without any regard to how the subject views themselves. The basic problem is not labeling people as Jewish, it is labelling people period. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree Resolute, the question should be open to both "sides" and encourage people on both viewpoints to put their personal beliefs here. Perhaps if we had an open airing of our feelings we could all stop talking past each other and actually understand and respect the other viewpoint instead of yelling and reinforcing our own deeply-held beliefs. And I agree with Delicious Carbuncle that labeling is the problem, but as I say in my next comment there are some who don't agree with you and me on Jews being ethnic and religious.Camelbinky (talk) 20:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

To Collect, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to ask. I understand the Misplaced Pages consensus, what I'm trying to understand is the psychology of editors, one of which I noticed at a talk page where someone ranted that Jews are only a religion and not a nationality, ethnic group, or part of a separate race (and I think the comment was several weeks old or could have been a year old, not sure) and it just struck me that the vitriol that was spilling on the page just was over the top and Im just hoping those that are against Jews as an ethnic grouping could explain their personal reasoning. Not trying to reverse Misplaced Pages consensus on any matter, just trying to understand the other side. And hopefully everyone on any "side" can explain themselves and help everyone be a bit more understanding.Camelbinky (talk) 20:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

See Who is a Jew?. This is an issue far larger than the Misplaced Pages, and as with most sensitive and thorny real-life issues, editors bring their outside beefs here to argue anew. Tarc (talk) 21:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's a quote from the reference #13 to Misplaced Pages article Charlie Chaplin: "Speculation about Chaplin's racial origin existed from the earliest days of his fame, and it was often reported that he was a Jew. Research has uncovered no evidence of this, however, and when a reporter asked in 1915 if it was true, Chaplin responded, "I have not that good fortune." The Nazi Party believed that he was Jewish, and banned The Gold Rush on this basis. Chaplin responded by playing a Jew in The Great Dictator and announced, "I did this film for the Jews of the world." He thereafter refused to deny claims that he was Jewish, saying, "Anyone who denies this aspect of himself plays into the hands of the anti-Semites". 76.126.142.59 (talk) 02:56, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a better conversation than most I've seen on Misplaced Pages about this issue. I am an editor who happens to be a convert to Judaism. But I am also an editor committed to the neutral point of view, and am opposed to vehemence about anything here, except adhering to our policies and guidelines, and our shared goal of building a 💕. I have only written three article related to Judaism, and don't concentrate on Jewish topics although they certainly interest me. My general feeling is that any biography of a person who openly identifies as a Jew, and whose notability is at least partially due to their involvement in Jewish religious or ethnic affairs, should include that information in the article. A good standard is whether a reliable source reports that the person openly identifies as Jewish, and whether that identification as a Jew is a factor in their notability. If so, mention it in the biography. Otherwise, leave it out.

The broader question of "Who is a Jew?" is multi-layered and very complex. Mentioned above is speculation about Chaplin. We hear similar speculation about the ancestry of Columbus, Lincoln, FDR and even Hitler himself. But when it comes to biographies of living people, we must be especially careful. Some Jews may not want their religion disclosed publicly. My mother-in-law and father-in-law were of this school. Though both born in the U.S., both had several cousins who perished in the Holocaust. They liked to remain silent in public, letting people assume that they were respectively Hungarian or Russian, but not Jews. Other people who may be the subjects of BLPs here may not care, and may even wish to be identified as Jews. But unless they are openly active in Jewish affairs, or have openly declared their Jewish identity as reported by reliable sources, that information does not belong in their biography.

This can be a dark discussion when we are documenting those who perished in the Holocaust, or especially their living descendants. But it is also a subject of some lightness and amusement and self-deprecation in the Jewish community. Jews are a very small but also very accomplished minority in Western society. They tend to be visible out of proportion to their numbers. This is the overt subtext of The Chanukah Song by Adam Sandler and also websites such as JeworNotJew.com. Some regional Jewish newspapers and magazines delight in running little gossip pieces pointing out that minor celebrity so-and-so is Jewish or half-Jewish, whatever that means. There are lot of Jews who take pleasure in pointing out that people like Scarlett Johansson are Jewish, despite being a blonde with a Scandinavian surname. They write books about all the Jewish baseball players, and all the Jewish rock and roll stars. And so on. Much of this is tongue in cheek, and much of it is somewhat understandable ethnic and religious pride. In the end, there is no need for vehemence or bitterness or confrontation., if we just stick to the principles I've described. Do high quality reliable sources report a Jewish self-identification by the biography subject? Does the person comment on or participate in Jewsih causes or activities? If so, mention it and reference it properly. If not, pass on mentioning it. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about your last criterion. Leo Kanner did not practice as a Jewish psychiatrist, and although his work was influenced by his heritage Saba was not a poet of Judaism, and neither to the best of my knowledge was notable for speaking out on Jewish issues. Nevertheless, our articles on both mention their Jewish heritage and developmental milieu. Rightly so, in my opinion, because their Jewish identities affected the course of their lives.

I recently changed "Leo Kanner was a Jewish-American" to "American", though, because it's one thing to discuss a person's religion or heritage in their article if it demonstrably influenced their life trajectory, but another thing to say So-and-so is a Jewish-/Catholic-/black-/white-/Hispanic- in the defining sentence. When we define them in the lead by their race/religion/culture, it really needs to be a significant element of their notability, in my opinion. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:12, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Answering the original post: it's not an "editors at Misplaced Pages" issue. It's an issue in the world at large and Misplaced Pages editor attitudes are just a manifestation of this. The fact is that in subtle ways labeling someone a Jew is different. Different than labeling someone Irish or Baptist or whatever. It just is. I don't know why, and I'm not sure if anyone could explain it easily. But that doesn't matter. It just is. "My new boss is Irish" is OK and is likely to elicit the response "Oh", while my "My new boss is Jewish" is, in some vague way and subtle way, slightly impolite and is likely to elicit the response "So?" or something. Perhaps you have felt this and puzzled over it yourself as you've gone through life, but if not, take my word for it.

It's no good pretending that this isn't true. There are various ways of addressing this, and completely ignoring it reasonable. Not completely ignoring it is also reasonable. Holding that it oughtn't be true is not helpful, though. We are part of the real world, here. Anyway, that is why this is a contentious question here. It likely will continue to be, and the "ignore it" and "don't ignore it" camps will continue to vie, perhaps as long as there is a Misplaced Pages. I don't know of any perfect solution and there probably isn't one. Herostratus (talk) 12:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

@Herostratus re "The fact is that in subtle ways labeling someone a Jew is different" - I call shenanigans on that sir! Shenanigans! The fact is, that virtually any racial/ethnic/religious/national identification can be be quite controversial in right circumstances. Trust me. I've had bitter arguments over virtually every identification there is. "Was dude X English, or was he Scottish?". "Was Jane Doe really a Catholic or was she an atheist?". "Can we call Johnny Q an African American b/c his mother's mother was black?". Each one of those questions can get really really bitter in exactly the same way that the "Jewish" identifier can be a source of debate.

@Everyone - The bottom line - ALL racial/ethnic/religious/national identifications as well as sexual orientation can be super controversial. WP does a really really bad job at laying down policy which clearly and concisely addresses the issue. We could solve this whole mess by writing a simple policy that reads - "When it comes to racial/ethnic/religious/national identifications and sexual orientation don't mention it unless 1) It's obvious and beyond dispute and not a subject of controversy/debate, 2) It's clearly relevant to a subject's notability, 3) It's something the subject clearly self-identified with."

And that's the bottom line...... NickCT (talk) 13:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Yup. Says it all really. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:55, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• NickCT: as a test case how would we handle Roy Cohn under that policy?
• Let's also flesh out this "simple policy" in practice: What is meant by "relevant to the subjects notability"? How is that determined, especially when it is "controversial"? Doesn't "controversial," often translate in practice to "notable"? Moreover, when we say someone is "American" or "French" how is that distinguishable? Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

To try to avoid this conversation spiralling out of control, I've responded to the comment above on Alan's talkpage. NickCT (talk) 14:59, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Don't know why you chose to respond there. What about my questions would spiral anything out-of-control? Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:12, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong. Thought they were good questions. But good questions for something like a policy page or village pump discussion. Possibly not Jimbo's talkpage. NickCT (talk) 18:32, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• Context is everything. I spend a huge part of my effort on early 20th Century American political and trade unionist biographies, heavy on various flavors of radicals. Ethnicity was a gargantuan part of that equation; the American Communist Parties, just for example, were something in the ballpark of 85% non-native speakers of English or first generation immigrants at the time of formation in 1919. It would be not only inadequate to write such a biography without noting ethnicity, it would border on the incompetent. There were more than a dozen different language groups, of which the Jewish (Yiddish language) was only one (and not the largest). On the other hand, going out of ones way to note that this or that contemporary political figure or entertainer or sports figure is of a particular ethnicity may or may not be appropriate on a case-by-case basis, in which self-identification or public activity is decisive. Rather than attempting to micro-manage content, it is best to simply be aware of the possible problem and to fix inappropriate "ethnicity-tagging" when one comes across it. Carrite (talk) 15:26, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Generally agree. My concern is that some of the above would seek to excise biographical content. Whose to say that Roy Cohn being born and raised in Jewish family has no effect on his life? But we need to still reflect what the sources say is noted about our subjects. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

There are also Atheist Jews, Catholic Jews, Protestant Jews, etc. etc. Count Iblis (talk) 16:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Iblis, however many do not. I hope we get some insight from those who believe there can not be Atheist Jews or Catholic Jews. And I agree with the editor who commented "how do we know someone is French, American, Chinese, in articles that start with "Sandy Koufax is an American baseball player"... well where is the source that says he is American? What about Michael J. Fox, William Shatner (a Jew), and Pamela Anderson. Shatner and Anderson are listed as Canadian actor/actress and Fox is noted as being Canadian American (he has dual citizenship); but so Pamela Anderson also has dual citizenship and that is not mentioned; and yet all three live in the US and are not exactly "Canadian actors" as in they are actors on Canadian TV/movies though they are Canadians who act. William Shatner is a poor example in that he maintains only Canadian citizenship to my understanding and only has residency here in the US (which you would think would be an inconvenience in some aspects). And then of course we all know the story of one very important man for whom just calling him an American gets lots people up at arms and therefore you could say it is controversial and by some people's definition above it should not be in his article, but really it would seem stupid to not say he is an American.Camelbinky (talk) 18:52, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Greg Kohs

Rich Farmbrough

Hi Jimbo, I tried to reach you previously about the issue but I guess I will start all over: I am a friend of Rich Farmbrough who is a great contributor on out site, but he was blocked for 1 year without a chance of being herd. What he did is a couple of useful contributions that the AC decided to be malicious, just because he did one mistake. Either way, why should I tell you the whole story if you can read it here. The conversation and uproar about his block continues to this day with ArbCom ignoring everything! Please read his talkpage for more info. Since you are a founder of this project I believe you have time and will to intervene. There was no message on user Sandstein's talkpage either.--Mishae (talk) 02:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Here is my link to the previous discussion to which you didn't show up!: diff

Jimbo has commented on other topics on this page before, after, and during your section above. That may be a bit of a hint that he really didn't take much interest in the subject? Tarc (talk) 19:37, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately I agree. I have been a vocal critic of the decision to ban him and I think the project loses every day he isn't allowed to edit. With that said and as I suggested before Jimbo really doesn't have the power to go against an Arbcom ruling. Even if he did he wouldn't. Kumioko (talk) 19:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe it was too long? However, I came to understanding that Jimbo just like everyone, thinks only about himself and money! I do appreciate that he founded such a great project, but his interest in videos over much more important thing such as this, clearly illustrates to me that he is either a child or a bit of a selfish type of founder. Maybe my negative review of him will get him on the edge?--Mishae (talk) 19:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Kumioko, in that case, why does Jimbo comments just like everyone else?--Mishae (talk) 19:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if you noticed but Jimbo's comments are usually ambiguous and generic and if they aren't they'll start with something like "if it were up to me" and end with something like "but its not really my decision". Kumioko (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

It sounds strange that a founder can't intervene. Like, he suppose to be in charge of the whole Misplaced Pages including ArbCom. Why he can't go against it. HE is a founder of this project, or did he denounce his title already?--Mishae (talk) 19:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

He's kinda like the Queen of England. Lots of status as a figurehead and founder...not much power. Kumioko (talk) 20:02, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Yea, you told me that numerous of times. I'm wondering, what will happen if that Queen of England will die?--Mishae (talk) 20:04, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

We'll probably start seeing the site generate revenue through advertisements or get sold to Google or something. Anyway, as I said before, I completely agree that banning Rich was an epically stupid decision but its not going to get revoked by Jimbo. The only exception would be, IMO, if Rich got hired on with WMF and he needed to have an account to edit in an official capacity but that's also doubtful. Kumioko (talk) 20:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe Jimbo will be nice guy and give him a job at the WMF... O' yea, I forgot he wont do it because he is a lousy cash cow! Nevermind.--Mishae (talk) 20:12, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Creeping credentialism

Can a WPdian's credentials serve as a RS? See here: Talk:Review journal.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 16:40, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

WMF activism re PRISM

According to https://meta.wikimedia.org/PRISM the WMF is going to insert itself into this controversy sometime after Friday (the 21st) unless it becomes clear before then that the community doesn't support such a move. What are your views on this?--Brian Dell (talk) 18:54, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I very strongly support it. I can't think of any real reason why anyone would oppose such a mild action. To join with other well-respected civil rights organizations in a simple demand for transparency from the government doesn't strike me as a stretch at all. If it were up to me, we'd do a lot more and be a lot more noisy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:46, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's protest against SOPA was widely supported because the proposed law was (rightly in my view) considered a threat to Misplaced Pages's own survival. What threat does PRISM pose to Misplaced Pages? (No opinion here, just genuinely curious about what the answer to that might be.) Prioryman (talk) 19:27, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I know of no reason for us to be so shortsighted as to only be in support of what is right if something wrong is a direct existential threat to the Wikimedia Foundation. We should be careful not to reach beyond things that have impact on our mission, but certainly this is one of them.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:46, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Well - I guess the obvious question would be that there are lots of things in the world that are wrong but not direct existential threats to the WMF. How does one choose which to protest? Prioryman (talk) 19:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC)