Revision as of 17:19, 17 June 2013

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Use this page to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

• Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
• Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

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1. Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
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Amendment request: Doncram

Initiated by Nyttend (talk) at 00:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Case affected

Doncram arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Principle 5
2. Finding 1.1
3. Remedy 2.1

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Nyttend (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Carptrash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Doncram (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Dudemanfellabra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Carptrash (diff of notification of this thread on Username2's talk page)
• Doncram (diff of notification of this thread on Username3's talk page)
• Dudemanfellabra (diff of notification of this thread on Username4's talk page)

Information about amendment request

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram#General_editor_probation. Not requesting any changes to principle 5 or finding 1.1; they're simply the relevant ones, and I wasn't clear if I needed to mention them, since the preloaded template mentioned all three things.
• Requesting something along the lines of "Doncram is indefinitely banned from commenting on contributors"

Statement by Nyttend

Since the case was closed, we've had at least two AE requests (Archive132 and Archive135) related to Doncram's pattern of commenting on contributors, not on content; in both cases, AE admins decided that Doncram's actions hadn't risen to the level of "repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum". As a result, Doncram continues this pattern with edits such as this one: I think it is rotten that some editors feel that they can go around bashing me. Dudemanfellabra, obviously, was being rude, and it was reasonable for Carptrash to sense that, and to be offended. It is even more rude, in my opinion, for Dudemanfellabra to just clarify that he meant to bash me, instead. He meant to offend me, and to trumpet his disrespect to everyone else. Much of the case centered around Doncram's comments on contributors, not content, and if I understood rightly, remedy 2.1 was included to prohibit such actions. Is this what we permit people to say when they've been placed on a general civility probation? If the remedy were created with this kind of edits in mind, Arbcom needs to reword it in such a way that the AE admins will enforce Arbcom's intentions. If Arbcom were simply meaning to solve the general WP:NPA situation and didn't have this specifically in mind, they need to add this prohibition because their current remedies aren't working. Nyttend (talk) 00:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps my original statement wasn't clear — the only reason I mentioned Carptrash and Dudemanfellabra is that Doncram's mentioned both of them in the diff to which I linked, and they're the only ones (besides Doncram and me) to have participated in the thread in question. Nyttend (talk) 00:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Doncram

(Temporary reply: I will edit this to add some diffs) I myself wondered about opening a clarification question here, specifically about the tenor of remarks by editor Dudemanfellabra in several recent episodes, and about how I should respond. Nyttend links to my response to Dudemanfellabra in current discussion at wt:NRHP. Dudemanfellabra had said something negative directed at me but not completely clearly; another editor took offense; Dudemanfellabra explicitly clarified that he was targeting me; the other editor commented and I responded similarly that I have feelings too. I in fact do not like to be targeted and to be repeatedly bashed publicly.

As I then stated, I honestly don't know how to deal with an editor repeatedly bashing at me. I think it is wrong. I think we can in general have a guideline that editors should comment about edits and not editors, but what if one editor is following and repeatedly commenting in an antagonistic, personal way. I have been wondering if I should open a Request For Comment about Dudemanfellabra, about several recent comments.

I have chosen to respond in different ways: i simply deleted Dudemanfellabra's negative comments and all of the associated discussion section at my own Talk page in one recent case, where another editor was making complaint about good edits that I had made (e.g. this good edit) because I had not done something further on the associated Talk pages, and I was trying to respond positively enough, and Dudemanfellabra chimed in with a negative comment, and after one more comment by the other editor I deleted that all with mild "okay, chat over, thanks" edit summary.

In this post Dudemanfellabra calls my work "half-a**ed"; in the next edit I deleted that with edit summary "Delete swearing post, unwelcome". I am honestly offended at this tone and the words Dudemanfellabra is using.

Showing at wt:NRHP is another Dudemanfellabra comment calling my work out negatively, with 6 links to recent articles or drafts by me, with complaint about "just a lazy longquote from the nomination form as you're so inclined to do." I disagree completely about my work being "lazy" and I disagree completely about appropriate use of good quotes from NRHP nomination documents explaining why places are NRHP-listed. The discussion was not part of any policy or guideline discussion on quotes, it seems to me as just a side jab.

At wt:NRHP just now, in further discussion where Dudemanfellabra targets me, I thought I could not delete Dudemanfellabra's comment although I do feel it amounts to a personal attack--he even emphasizes that he is meaning to attack me personally--and I chose to respond as I did, by saying basically I did not like that. I think it is fair to observe that at least Dudemanfellabra seems to feel entitled to jab me at will, showing disrespect repeatedly. I request that Dudemanfellabra be advised to adhere to standards of civility, and to stop the repeated jabs.

The arbitration case may have not gone far enough to address a culture of negativity and repeated insulting that has grown over many years at WikiProject NRHP and in associated NRHP articles and personal Talk pages. It helped a lot that an interaction ban was put into place, eliminating one source of contention and negativity. The arbitration settlement is not a solution if other editors step up with contention and negativity, however. I rather think what's needed is for NRHP editors, at WikiProject NRHP, to speak up and say they don't want the negativity and the jabs. I was inviting that; what we have here is different, taking the "solution" process away from where it should be taken care of, IMHO. --doncram 00:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Kumioko

This submission is baseless and the comment that Doncram made, that Nyttend linked too, isn't even derogatory. I could list a dozen edits made by 3 editors alone that are far worse than that. He was simply responding too comments that were left by another editor and stated he had feelings too. I also want to add that the AE complaints that he is referring too were also thrown out for good reason. Editors shouldn't be expected to sit silently after repeated abuse. As I stated in a couple other places I think the Arbcom ban on him creating NRHP articles is a waste of Articles for Creations time. They created a special process just for Doncram because they recognize that its a waste of their time but they are forced into the situation by Arbcom. Kumioko (talk) 00:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Carptrash

I believe that I unknowingly wandered into a combat zone and took a shot that was aimed at someone else. There is obviously history at play here and I don't understand it well enough to offer anything useful. I was invited to comment, I have never been to one of these events before. Now I have and I won't use up more of your energy. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 14:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Orlady

As a party to the Arbcom case (but not to the talk-page discussion that precipitated this request), I agree with the request for amendment. In my view, Doncram's long-standing habit of commenting on the person rather than the subject matter -- and of interpreting comments on his content as personal attacks motivated by personal vendettas against him -- was one of the main issues underlying the Arbcom case. I thought that warnings -- rather than sanctions -- under the existing probation were appropriate in the two Arbitration Enforcement instances cited because I hoped that Doncram would heed the warnings. However, that's not working. I think this amendment is needed (1) in view of the recent evidence that he is reverting to the kind of behavior that got us to Arbcom in the first place and (2) because administrators at AE were reluctant to act because the Arbcom remedies did not explicitly refer to this kind of behavior as being subject to sanctions. --Orlady (talk) 17:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Dudemanfellabra

I don't really have anything to add either. I believe my evaluation of Doncram's contributions is accurate. Although his contribution history is a long one, anyone willing to take the time to look over everything will see a minimal improvement at best after the arbitration, as far as substantive contributions (i.e. article writing). No one is asking him to create only like featured articles or anything, but as has been said many times before, if he just put a little more time and effort into everything he does to make it more presentable and less quick-fix-y, the number of complaints/attacks about/on him would drop off drastically.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 17:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by {yet another user}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• The thing here is that Doncram could already be placed under the restriction you suggest under the terms of his existing probation if, at WP:AE, the evidence were there to justify or if an individual administrator felt strongly enough to do so. Am I misreading this or is it being suggested that the sanction be modified in order to encourage others to sanction them and/or make it easier for them to do so?  Roger Davies 05:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
• We need to hear from the administrators who declined to sanction Doncram after the Arbitration Enforcement (AE) requests in question. Nyttend, please notify the AE administrators of this amendment request, and then tell us when you have done so. We need to know why the administrators determined they should not sanction Doncram. AGK 13:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)