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I approve of the title "Queen of Pop" to e included in the lead. Madonna's the very first singer to have received that title, was referred to that countless times and is the most successful female musician in history. Just like Michael Jackson, she was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. ] (]) 01:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I approve of the title "Queen of Pop" to e included in the lead. Madonna's the very first singer to have received that title, was referred to that countless times and is the most successful female musician in history. Just like Michael Jackson, she was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. ] (]) 01:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
== Madonna's latest boyfriend ==
In the March 2013 issue of W magazine, Madonna's current boyfriend, Brahim Zaibat, one of her backup dancers. One editor has already dismissed this when I tried to add it claiming that it's not an important information. I want to argue first of all, with the listing of professional accomplishments and marriages, the article is quite dull and it makes her seem like a singing dancing machine. Which she is to some extent, but could we please humanize her? Nothing about her love life has been in the press since the divorce from ]. I think this is an example of ] (whatever the code for that may be). 2) Madonna fans know that her personal life figures 50 percent into her music!! So listing awards and sales might be impressive, but aren't we also trying to address the people who are not Madonna fans? I mean, this profile might as well be of a sports star. --] (]) 21:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Revision as of 21:31, 3 April 2013
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: not moved: there is insufficient support for the move and reasoned opposition against it. DrKiernan (talk) 08:25, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
– I understand that this issue has been discussed multiple times in the past, but I still feel that this is a case of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The only article on the disambiguation that could compete with Madonna the singer for primary topic would be Mary, and even so the term "Madonna" is only used thirteen times in the article, not one of which is a notable term presented in the introduction. Of thw two, the singer is much more notable in this naming, and deserves the primary naming. This would require moving the disambiguation to Madonna (disambiguation) but I couldn't get the multimove template working. WikiRedactor (talk) 04:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose. There is about a three to one ratio of page views in favor of Madonna only looking at the first three pages on the dis page, but that really is not enough to change the status quo (I tend to favor at least 4:1, and preferably 5:1 over the next most viewed, though this is not listed as a criteria in the guidelines, which says more than all others, a criteria that has always been met). Never mind that Madonna has sold more records than any other (female) performer. Unfortunately there is something else that is very well known that Madonna was named after. Apteva (talk) 05:46, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Support. If you google Madonna -wikipedia, 29 of the top 30 results refer to the singer. The other one refers to Madonna University in Michigan. A topic is primary, "if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term," per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Kauffner (talk) 09:10, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose the status quo was just confirmed in a well-attended discussion at the art page - Zzyzx11 gives the link above. Nobody denies Mad gets far more hits, but that is actually not the only factor in considering "primary topic". The nominator and supporters should read the guidelines again. There is an element of forum-shopping here, as the first debate only closed 2 weeks ago. Johnbod (talk) 11:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose as before. Doesn't need yet another discussion. Just because Madonna fans think she's the primary topic and they and the media write a lot about her on the internet does not wipe out centuries of common primary usage as an artistic depiction of the Virgin Mary. And to stop the inevitable comments (as before) that this discussion is being hijacked by Christians, I'd just like to say that I'm not in the slightest bit religious. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Comment & Suggestion: I did, in fact, review the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guidelines, and saw the following: A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term. Misplaced Pages's traffic statistics says the art form had 11,035 view this month; the singer had 266,178 hits and is the 468th most visited article in February. So it certainly looks like the singer is the more popular and searched of the two. A topic is primary for a term, with respect to long-term significance, if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term. The height of Madonna's career was nearly 30 years ago, yet she still pulls through among the most viewed articles in the English Misplaced Pages. Yes, Madonna the painting has been around significantly longer, but its page doesn't even get a fraction of the views that Madge does. If the page is moved, what would be wrong with adding this at the top of the article: "This article is about the entertainer. For the pictorial or sculptured representations of Mary, Mother of Jesus, see Madonna (art). For other uses, see Madonna (disambiguation)." I would think this satisfies all, as it would direct those who perhaps think of the art as the primary topic to the article they are looking for. WikiRedactor (talk) 20:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
But you missed " In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage and one of primary long-term significance. In such a case, consensus determines which article, if either, is the primary topic." That is the case here. Yes, if it was moved, such a hatnote would of course be needed. But it won't be moved. Johnbod (talk) 21:35, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose.WP:PRIMARYTOPIC has a two-pronged test: usage and long-term significance. Where these criteria lead to significantly different conclusions (the entertainer wins on usage, but the appellation and art figure win on long-term significance), the best solution is usually not to have a primary topic. The status quo is the best option. Nothing significant ha changed since the last move proposal.--Trystan (talk) 23:55, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Not sure I follow. Disambiguating the incoming links remains a significant ongoing task, but one that is manageable so long as many people monitor it, and so long as no other article is moved where the DAB page is now. My position on this proposed move hasn't changed.--Trystan (talk) 05:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Not really. Have you no respect, whatever you might think, for two thousand years of belief and iconic tradition. But anyway, lets be honest, this is all just trolling anyway, it aint going to happen. Ceoil (talk) 04:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Strongly support. The article "Madonna (entertainer)" is the most watched (consulted) that others; Google results and this has several ramifications (Madonna book, album... ). Crearly is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and if it is not, we use common sense. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 11:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Comment: Ceoil, tell me how anything to do with this proposal is "disrespecting" religious beliefs; no one here is disrespecting anything on that level. Second, trying to help Misplaced Pages is not trolling; it's a proposal for a reason, people discuss their concerns in what is supposed to be a peaceful setting. WikiRedactor (talk) 14:33, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
WikiRedactor I accept that. I'm not at all religious myself, but I have to say I find this whole discussion as far beyond ridiculous. I just dont get where ye guys are coming from, but whatever, lets live and let live, others are commenting now so yes, lets not personalise. Ceoil (talk) 16:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Is the idea that making a DAB page primary respects religious belief? I find these pages to be largely useless myself. If the art form had a hat note on the singer's page, that would give it more prominence than it has now. Kauffner (talk) 18:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Support. Obviously primary topic based on page view counts. And this is why adding the "long-term significance" criteria to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is a problem - it allows both sides in RM discussions like this, and countless others, to both have sound arguments based in policy. The idea that both considerations need to be weighed is absurd. Each side can give whatever factor favors their personal preference more weight. Unless we consistently and solely go by the traditional highly likelyto be the topic being sought criterion, we're going to just constantly fill the RM backlog with discussions ultimately based on JDLI preferences. --B2C21:23, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Nevertheless it is in the policy, and has been for years, and despite the objections of some like yourself, the current proposal to remove it is clearly failing. So let's implement the policy we have. Johnbod (talk) 21:34, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Actually, all that was in there "for years" is an exception for recentism for WP:VITAL articles, which practically never applied, so was essentially irrelevant. Then, only in 2011, did the consideration for recentism get expanded to apply to any articles in terms of "long-term significance".
It's simply not possible to follow this "policy". It's like changing the law to say green means go and red means stop but only when you're hungry; green means stop and red means go when you're not hungry. Now, everybody, follow that rule! It's utter foolishness to even try to follow a rule like this. --B2C23:53, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose for all the reasons given above, which I will not reiterate. Ms. Ciccone has a surname, why not use it and avoid any confusion altogether? Mannanan51 (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2013 (UTC)Mannanan51
Support. Clearly wins by any definition of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Also, I don't think this is a case of recentism. Madonna has been around for a while and I'm certain she will remain the primary topic at least until everyone born in the 1980s is dead (and perhaps much longer than that). Kaldari (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose for all the reasons stated, and one more thought: How long is her staying power? The article title should not be just for the next 5 to 10 years but potentially indefinitely. At some point she will pass into retirement and mentions of the her will decline. Would we go back and change the article then? --Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 03:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree to oppose, but not for the last reason - yes, we would. At the moment we have this debate one a year anyway, sadly. Johnbod (talk) 11:00, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose We've got a centuries old icon versus a commercial artist parasitizing off that meme. I happen to love Madonna Ciccone, and she can stick with that name. μηδείς (talk) 02:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Firstly, the argument is not that Madonna should redirect to the Virgin Mary, but that the common usage is and always has been an artistic depiction of the Virgin Mary. Secondly, I would agree that "singer" is the better disambiguator, but that's immaterial to the subject under discussion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:02, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
What is Madonna's legal name?
The article implies that she legally shortened her name to just Madonna. However, I couldn't find a statement and source in the article that addresses that matter. The last discussion I read about this matter (before posting this) took place in 2011, and didn't provide any sources that confirmed a name change. The only (somewhat) reliable source I found regarding this was one of Madonna's interviews back in 1985, where she states her full name is Madonna Louisa Veronica Ciccone Penn. (http://mgross.com/writing/books/the-more-things-change/bonus-chapters/madonna-catholic-girl-material-girl-post-liberation-woman/) Granted it's outdated since she's been divorced for a while, but it's something to start with. Whether or not it is determined that her legal name is her birth name or simply Madonna, we need to add a reliable source for either one; I'm surprised we don't already have one. WikiRedactor (talk) 20:47, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Interesting the article says her birth name was "Madonna Louise Ciccone", when she herself says her legal name (in 1985) was "Madonna Louisa Veronica Ciccone Penn". — Statυs (talk, contribs) 20:57, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
A debate was started on February 13th, to discuss the use of the alias Queen of Pop in the artlicles introductions. Next day, I said that I was going to participate when I had time and if it was necessary that I will start a new debate. However, I never had the time to get involve and the discussion was solved the same day with all votes against the change. It is not the first time that this topic is discussed; however I believe that the arguments presented were inaccurate. Therefore, I will like to present new arguments.
Madonna is not the only artist that has been regarded as the Queen of Pop; several new and old artists have received the same title, but the references to support the use of those aliases in singers like Diana Ross are unfounded and inconsequential. In this specific example, the article states the Ross is the reigning queen of pop culture, which is like stating that Andy Warhol is the King of Pop (pop, translates to Pop art and Pop culture, not necessarily pop music) or Marisol Escobar. As well, in the Article Honorific nicknames in popular music, there is a reference that is used on three different artists which states that during the 1990s Mariah Carey, Celine Dion and Whitney Houston were regarded as the Queen of Pop, and the problem with this is that is stated as a question and not as a fact, also that we are no longer in that decade and the three are named as queens at the same time. Focusing on Celine Dion, there is a reference from a Canadian source stating OurQueen of Pop, which means that she is referred with that title in Canada and not necessarily around the world. These reference and information irregularities are evident on several other artists.
Since 1980 until now Madonna has been regarded as the Queen of Pop by several sources throughout the world, and this fact only applies to Madonna’s particular case which can be easily demonstrated with several sources. Some references (four decades: 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's)
SPMenem: la vida privada pag.302 (1999) from Editorial Planeta ..."Y Madonna era todo eso junto. ... Pero había otra cosa: la piel blanquísima de la reina del pop le traía a la memoria la vedette Thelma Stefani, con la que vivió un tormentoso romance a mediados de los ochenta. "
2000's
SP¿Qué es Estados Unidos? (2008) from Fondo de Cultura Económica ...."El rey y la reina del pop respectivamente. Madonna ha sido indudablemente la mujer más importante en la historia de la música popular y una gran empresaria de sí misma, marcando modas, rompiendo tabúes, provocando controversias"
All litter examples. This means that she has been named the Queen of Pop more than any other artist, even more than Houston with all the obituaries. Several music critics and journalists continue to regard Madonna as the “eternal” and “indisputable” Queen of Pop, and not only in English sources but in other languages as well like French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Catalan, etc. Are there references from different years and languages that support the alias of Queen of Pop in other artists? I don’t think so. Madonna is clearly regarded as the Queen of Pop worldwide, not only by the press but by sociologists, critics and other intellectuals, and especially by the IFPI and the Guinness World Records book.
In order to maintain neutrality (we introduce information with all its sides and shades and we don’t have to act as judges of the information) and to present trustworthy information I suggest:
Mantain all aliases in the introduction stated in a way to prevent biases, and keeping in consideration if these aliases apply to all the countries in the world or just the United States and the United Kingdom.
Keep all aliases in the infobox and the introduction
The only actual mention of her being the Queen of Pop in the article is "In 2011, Rolling Stone declared her as the all-time Queen of Pop and stated that'"Madonna is a musical icon without peer.'" I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of women have been cited as being the Queen of Pop, however, as Rolling Stone states, she is the "all-time", so yes, it should be included more in the article. To what extent, I don't know. I think it would be a good amount doing it as much as it is for Michael Jackson. — Statυs (talk, contribs) 21:44, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Okay, Status thank your for your comment. I clarify one thing: Rolling Stone is not the only means that it has named Madonna as the eternal or undisputed "Queen of Pop" are many and not only English-language media; To cite a few examples:
Comment: Personally, I don't have much interest with this topic anymore. But honestly, almost all English-language reputed media have written Madonna as the Queen of Pop. Yes, several female artists are labeled the same, but NONE of them are as extensive and enduring as Madonna (80s, 90s, 00s, 10s). Just type Google the media you want to find for the title by using this searching format, such as BBC like this >> "site:bbc.co.uk Madonna Queen of Pop" or CNN like this >> "site:cnn.com Madonna Queen of Pop" — Bluesatellite (talk) 01:41, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Why can't we just mention that she is the Queen of Pop per universal media coverage. Not a local artist you know, but its the universal press, academics, journalists calling her that. So illustrating it in the legacy and the header would do. —Indian:BIO · 12:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Comment: A good range of source material (some with dubious content, I'm not sure whether "pop queen" is honorific or colloquial in some) which I think probably would warrant a larger mention in legacy and in the last paragraph of the lead. I am strongly opposed to it being adopted as an alias of some sorts, I don't think that can be established by the source material in the same way as it has for Michael Jackson. —Jennie | ☎18:08, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Sorry Jennie--x I disagree with your point. What is MJ's deal here?. I mean, We must analyze each case, in this context (Queen of Pop) You can clearly see that Madonna has been aknowldegded as queen of pop globally in the opposite with other artists. There are also artists like Shakira, Thalía, Gloria Estefan who have been called "Queen of Latin Pop" but also "The Latin Madonna". Gloria Trevi or Yuri: "The Mexican Madonna". Rihanna or Beyoncé "The Black Madonna". Lady Gaga or Britney Spears: "The New Madonna" and more ("The Japanese Madonna", "Madonna of Asia"...). Sorry but no, your argument has no consistency. And yes, I agree with you about extending this on the Legacy section but It is our duty to appoint as such in the lead that Madonna is well recognized, because this is what an introduction is about, isn't it?. Chrishonduras (talk) 18:52, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
If you read my comment carefully, I say I agree with a mention in the lead, just not the term being adopted as an alias. The problem is that Michael Jackson was synonymous with the term (and there are sources that say this), but the same isn't said of Madonna. I agree she has received the title substantially (perhaps even the most), but to argue that it should be an alias (that is, it should be adopted as an "Other name" in the infobox or in the first sentence) is unfounded. —Jennie | ☎19:39, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Okay, no problem. I'm so sorry because I'm not a native English speaker (I didn't understand your message =). One thing, remember that many times Michael Jackson has been named "King of Pop" on par with Madonna as "Queen of Pop" (some books: , , , , , , ....). Beyond that, Michael Jackson was/is/still synonymous of "King of Pop", certainly, and about Madonna is clear that She is the most perpetual "Queen of Pop" (globally and all possible contexts; in fact, though not abundant as MJ, some media have said the nickname Queen of Pop is basically a synonym inshe). The MJ's lead say: "Often referred to as the 'King of Pop', or by his initials MJ"; with Madonna not is applicable, but mention may be made in different ways introducing. As you say Jennie: "last paragraph of the lead" or in this context: Madonna is known for continuously reinventing both her music and image, and for retaining a standard of autonomy within the recording industry. She attained immense popularity by pushing the boundaries of lyrical content in mainstream popular music and imagery in her music videos, which became a fixture on MTV. Critics have praised her diverse musical productions which have also been known to induce controversy.
Comment: While the term was used as a temporary nick name on other female singers, it definately became an alias to Madonna. --Watquaza (talk) 04:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Avoid These peacock terms are best avoided in Misplaced Pages. They are unencyclopedic and ill defined. I have just come from a similar RfC about whether London or NYC should be called the 'financial capital of the world'. There were plenty of sources supporting both cities but the consensus was not to say that about either city. Even deciding what such terms mean requires OR, which is not our job. Let us stick to reporting facts. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi all! Well I agree with that he put the alias in the article. I know that many artists have been named as "Queen of Pop", as indicated Chrishonduras, but we all know that Madonna is the only "Queen of Pop". They say newspapers, magazines, specialized in music critics, etc. Summing up, I support the inclusion in the lead. Greetings! --190.228.234.64 (talk) 00:28, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I approve of the title "Queen of Pop" to e included in the lead. Madonna's the very first singer to have received that title, was referred to that countless times and is the most successful female musician in history. Just like Michael Jackson, she was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Israell (talk) 01:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Madonna's latest boyfriend
In the March 2013 issue of W magazine, Giovanna Battaglia revealed Madonna's current boyfriend, Brahim Zaibat, one of her backup dancers. One editor has already dismissed this when I tried to add it claiming that it's not an important information. I want to argue first of all, with the listing of professional accomplishments and marriages, the article is quite dull and it makes her seem like a singing dancing machine. Which she is to some extent, but could we please humanize her? Nothing about her love life has been in the press since the divorce from Guy Richie. I think this is an example of ageism (whatever the code for that may be). 2) Madonna fans know that her personal life figures 50 percent into her music!! So listing awards and sales might be impressive, but aren't we also trying to address the people who are not Madonna fans? I mean, this profile might as well be of a sports star. --Aichik (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
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— Statυs (talk, contribs) 03:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)