Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:31, 27 January 2013

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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Misplaced Pages discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

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There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 36 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 34 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

This could really use some attention—it's been over a month. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Beeblebrox. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  05:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 103 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 83 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

would like to see what close is. seems like it was option 1 in general, possibly 1/2 for IP area. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 73 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia#RFC: Should the article state that Indigenous Australians were victims of genocide?

(Initiated 72 days ago on 8 November 2024), RFC expired weeks ago. GoodDay (talk) 21:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 57 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion has slowed on the RFC. TarnishedPath 07:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Thomas Sewell (neo-Nazi)#RfC on the Inclusion of Guard Actions and Court Findings on Motivations

(Initiated 33 days ago on 17 December 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice and the last comment was a few days ago. Can we get an independent close please. TarnishedPath 22:50, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Done. Yes you can.—S Marshall T/C 10:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  @S Marshall Thank you. TarnishedPath 10:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Estado Novo (Portugal)#RFC Should the Estado Novo be considered fascist?

(Initiated 11 days ago on 8 January 2025) RfC opened last month, and was re-opened last week, but hasn't received further discussion. Outcome clear and unlikely to change if it were to run the full 30 days. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 00:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Does this need a close? Aaron Liu (talk) 02:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would have just closed it myself, but I don't exactly feel comfortable doing so since I've responded and have a bias about how it should close. Not opposed to just letting it expire, though. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 23:23, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it should just be left to expire. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Closing the discussion. The outcome is obvious and you can let it lie unclosed.—S Marshall T/C 00:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

 Not done for reasons given above. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  04:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

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Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 18#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 30 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Category:Misplaced Pages oversighters

(Initiated 30 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 31#Category:Disambig-Class Star Trek pages

(Initiated 18 days ago on 31 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Xplicit. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  16:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 1#Category:Category-Class 20th Century Studios pages of NA-importance

(Initiated 18 days ago on 1 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Xplicit. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  16:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Redundant WPANIMATION categories

(Initiated 13 days ago on 6 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 116 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 82 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 73 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 22 days ago on 27 December 2024) Proposed merge discussion originally opened on 30 May 2024, closed on 27 October 2024, and reopened on 27 December 2024 following the closure being overturned at AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Selected Ambient Works Volume II#Proposed merge of Stone in Focus into Selected Ambient Works Volume II

(Initiated 13 days ago on 6 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; proposal is blocking GA closure czar 11:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal to supersede consensus #50

(Initiated 8 days ago on 10 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; its degenerated into silly sniping and has clearly run its course. Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Number of page watchers tool deprecated

Hi. It's now possible to view the number of page watchers via the "info" action. For example, at <https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Main_Page&action=info>, you can see that Main Page has over 76,500 page watchers. In the coming weeks, I'll be deprecating the watcher tool. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

The info page itself has a link to the old tool at the bottom, under "External Tools" -- I have no idea how that's edited. NE Ent 02:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Pageinfo-footer. 28bytes (talk) 20:36, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for updating that page. :-)

The link is also available from MediaWiki:Histlegend. I'm thinking that replacing (rather than removing) the link from there makes more sense, but I think I'd like to develop a better target for the link first. I guess there are two approaches to take: (1) replace the watcher link with a link to action=info; or (2) replace the watcher link with a link to action=info with an anchor to the number of watchers row, preferably highlighted (like we do with clicked references). Option 2 is my preference, but the underlying HTML currently has no support for this. The tool is only deprecated, not yet abandoned, though, so there's time to work all of this out. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I like (2), and I suppose this is better than nothing. (It's quite bizarre that the id for that sub-table begins with #, though. Is that typical?) AGK 22:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I can't code, so I can't solve problems, but I'm good at pointing out problems for others to worry about. Currently, if a non-admin clicks on your (MZMcBride) tool and there are less than 30 watchers, it comes back and explains "fewer than 30 watchers". If a non-admin clicks on the action=info page instead, for a page with less than 30 watchers, the page watchers line is just gone. So for non-admins looking at MediaWiki:Histlegend for a page with less than 30 watchers, clicking on "Number of watchers", for both options (1) and (2), are just going to confuse them. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I see three bugs here, but I probably won't have time to file them until later. I'll post here after I do. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:39, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Is it anticipated that a link to the "info" action will replace the link to your tool? Otherwise, it seems the only way to get to the info action page is to manually edit the url. ‑Scottywong| squeal _ 19:13, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

If you go to the History tab for a page, there's a "Page Information" link in the toolbox on the left. 28bytes (talk) 19:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

That link isn't just on the history tab. KTC (talk) 19:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Depends on the skin; in MonoBook that's the only place I see it. 28bytes (talk) 19:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

In both Monobook and Vector, the "Page information" link should be present in the "toolbox" section of the sidebar for any action (history, view, edit, etc.). If it's not, there's a bug.

AGK: bugzilla:42629 is the bug you're describing, pretty much. Floquenbeam: bugzilla:44252 and bugzilla:44253 are the bugs you want. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:17, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I've updated User:Jake Wartenberg/centijimbo to reflect the change; if I've made any mistakes, someone please correct me, though I've obviously tested it on my own userpage and found no issues. Incidentally, should we perhaps move it to templatespace? It's Misplaced Pages-related (if not particularly related to improving the encyclopedia), and has been edited mostly by users other than Jake (who appears to be only intermittently active). — PinkAmpers& 21:42, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Er, where is the "Info page" or "Info action?" I see no tab, page or button so labelled. Edison (talk) 03:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

There's a link to it from the history page. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 03:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

In addition, you can add ?action=info to the end of a URL and you'll get the info. Ryan Vesey 03:25, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe it's also linked to as "page information" in the toolbox on any page. — PinkAmpers& 08:49, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Translation into Russian

Every few days I see the edit filter catching translation of wikipedia page into Russian, eg Special:AbuseLog/8140504. Is this malicious or likely to be an accident - eg software that translates a browser page content, and then user hitting save? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:57, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

That's thoroughly weird. Why would the browser plugin translate some things but not others? But why would someone attempt to translate random words while leaving other random words untranslated? Even putting chunks through Google Translate takes a bunch of time, since there are so many untranslated words; what kind of vandal or other bad-faith editor would put this much effort into turning the page into macaroni? I can't imagine any logical explanation for it. Nyttend (talk) 21:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Update: I'm beginning to think that it's somehow automated, rather than being a misguided would-be translator. Look at what it did to the convert template: {{convert|5004|mm|in|1|abbr=on}} becomes {{convert|5004|мм|в|1|abbr=on}}. Wiktionary notes that в is sometimes a preposition with the meaning of "in" — humans would render this as "Дюйм" or keep it as "in", because no human would turn an abbreviation for "inches" into a preposition. Nyttend (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Google Chrome offers automatic translation of foreign-language pages, doesn't it? Couldn't this be a result of someone setting the browser to translate English pages to Russian and then trying to edit here? Jafeluv (talk) 18:16, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Here is another: Special:AbuseLog/8125404 a sencond level header translated, which I blocked as a spambot, but I now think this is inappropriate. And another Special:AbuseLog/8080180 just a third level header section being translated; Special:AbuseLog/8080167 another one. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:33, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

And this one didn't get blocked at all; how did it get through when the others didn't? Nyttend (talk) 14:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit filters are not guaranteed to run, perhaps due to too many resources being used. So it is not surprising that some are missed. Jafeluv could be on the right track. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:50, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

That edit was caught. The filter is warn only, though. And the foreign language filter wouldn't catch these because the edit delta was close to 0. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, well here is another caught one. Special:AbuseLog/8151197. So should we treat this as abuse? Or treat it as an accident? Or should we tighten the edit filter to catch this more? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Do we need a site notice regarding the main page update problem?

We're getting LOTS of repeat questions regarding the main page update problem which is being discussed at this thread, among other places. Every few hours or minutes or so, a new user, unaware of the problem, posts a thread somewhere asking what is going on. Maybe something to the affect of "Yes, we know that there's a problem and we're working on it" may head off some of the questions. Any thoughts or ideas? --Jayron32 15:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable -- do we know if it's affecting all the projects or just English Misplaced Pages? If it's all the projects maybe we should kick it to WMF. NE Ent 16:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Editnotice set. Take it down when needed or if you disagree with the idea of having it there. Nyttend (talk) 17:45, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Please close the comment in the editnotice! It screws up stuff! --Nouniquenames 17:48, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Noticed that myself and just done. Dpmuk (talk) 17:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Oops, sorry. It did that the first time, but I'd left out a fontsize option, so I thought that its omission was causing fits. Closed my browser immediately after setting it the second time, so I didn't notice that it was still a problem. Nyttend (talk) 17:50, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Well that was spectacular -- reformat every Misplaced Pages page for three minutes! Maybe test in sandbox first next time? NE Ent 17:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• I previewed and nothing appeared to be wrong. Apparently it only applies the coding to the rest of the page (or to other pages) when it actually exists. Nyttend (talk) 18:01, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Ah, don't worry about it - these thing happen. You just have to deal with about 25 IP accounts complaining that the service they don't pay anything for doesn't work ;-) Ritchie333 18:04, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Some things you gotta sandbox, not just preview. Like create in one sandbox and test substitute in another. That said, Ritchie's right, not the end of the world. And most or all of the 25 IPs won't know who to blame. NE Ent 18:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• It is just the main page, or multiple pages??? NE Ent 17:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• It appears to be several pages that are screwy, according to some comments I've been seeing. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 20:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Excessive relisting of nominations at AfD

HERE is our guideline with respect to relisting deletion debates at Articles for Deletion:

"...if at the end of the initial seven-day period, the discussion has only a few participants (including the nominator), and/or it seems to be lacking arguments based on policy, it may be appropriate for the closer to relist it, to solicit further discussion to determine consensus. A relisted discussion may be closed once consensus is determined without necessarily waiting a further seven days.

That said, relisting should not be a substitute for a "no consensus" closure. If the closer feels there has been substantive debate, disparate opinions supported by policy have been expressed, and consensus has not been achieved, a no-consensus close may be preferable.

Relisting debates repeatedly in the hope of getting sufficient participation is not recommended, and while having a deletion notice on a page is not harmful, its presence over several weeks can become disheartening for its editors. Therefore, in general, debates should not be relisted more than twice. Users relisting a debate for a third (or further) time, or relisting a debate with a substantial number of commenters, should write a short explanation (in addition to the "relist" template) on why they did not consider the debate sufficient.

Extensions at AfD used to be rarities. However, participation at AfD seems to be down while automated tools have made deletion nominations easier than ever and lately these same automated tools are seemingly used to make third and even fourth extensions of debates, ostensibly due to lack of participation. No rationales are provided for these third and fourth extensions, even though the guideline is quite explicit that they should be. Little is to be gained by singling out the administrators who are punching some sort of "EXTEND DEBATE" button or whatever the hell they are doing; a quick glance at any recent daily AfD debate page should be sufficient. I would merely like to note that this is a problem — it clogs up the works at AfD — and the problem is getting worse. It is time for administrators to start exerting a little authority on nominations surrounded by apathy — either No Consensus Keep them or No Consensus Delete them if nobody cares enough to comment one way or the other... Carrite (talk) 18:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• I have noticed this phenomenon as well. the last major discussion about this issue that I am aware of was Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion/Relisting straw poll, in late 20120 and the consensus arrived at there suggested that more than two relists are probably excessive in most cases although there is no hard limit. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• If I'm relisting a debate for more than a first time I'll make a note on the AfD saying why I'm doing it (i.e. BLP issues, something that's changed on the article). Otherwise, they should be closed. Black Kite (talk) 21:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Treat them similarly to uncontested PRODs. Reyk _YO! 21:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • That is effectively one option. Closing as no-consensus is the other (per WP:NOQUORUM). Admin's call. I think that's reasonable.Hobit (talk) 01:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Can a editor like me who is uninvolved close a long-running AFD as no consensus? This AFD has been going on two weeks....William 01:47, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• There's no such thing as a no-consensus delete, but if the only person who's cared to comment after ample opportunity is the nominator for deletion, then I'd say that's an ipso facto local consensus to delete (though of course that should be overridden if the closer judges the rationale insufficient or what-have-you -- successfully flying under the radar is no reason to carry out a bad deletion). —chaos5023 (talk) 21:55, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but my belief is that it is not written in stone that No Consensus closes are to default to Keep in every case. Many of these are more or less the same as uncontested PRODs, in my view, and "No Consensus" ending in deletion seems an appropriate result in some cases. Carrite (talk) 03:28, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Ah yes, this is right. Unscintillating has it in WP:NOQUORUM. No Consensus defaulting to Keep and "Soft Delete" are the options in this situation. Carrite (talk) 03:30, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• This is covered in WP:Deletion process in the sections WP:NOQUORUM and WP:RELIST.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Some examples from AFD patrol:
  • Luis Livingstone (AfD discussion) — discussion opened on 2012-12-19, relisted five times
  • Helen Flynn (AfD discussion) — discussion opened on 2012-12-20, relisted five times
  • Rico Beats (AfD discussion) — discussion opened on 2012-12-23, relisted four times
  • European Kindred (AfD discussion) — discussion opened on 2012-12-26, relisted four times
  • Sad Beautiful Tragic (AfD discussion) — discussion opened on 2012-12-28, relisted four times
• There are quite a few discussions at AFD that look like this:
  • Public Relations Student Society of America (AfD discussion) — discussion opened on 2013-01-03, relisted three times
• Here are some discussions that look (as one's eye travels down a per-diem page) like they have participants, but in fact have none other than the nominator:
  • Fast + Epp (AfD discussion)
  • Kyong Hae Kim (AfD discussion)
  • Hookson (AfD discussion)
  • SERP-Chem International Master Course (AfD discussion)
• Uncle G (talk) 13:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• I know I frequently relist in excess of the suggested limits. My reasoning is that someone has taken the time to find a problem with an article and, while I may not be knowledgeable enough to opine, I can see there are problems with discussion that are worth further review. Take Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Institute of Management of Sri Lanka for example. The only two people to comment are in favor of retention, but both of them seem to have a very poor understanding of sourcing. While it would be a candidate for a no consensus close, I have an unproven suspicion that further review by skilled editors would find the sourcing deficient. Leaving it for another relist seems like the best way to do that. MBisanz 17:33, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

This is of course part of a larger problem. After years of what I would call over-participation at AFD, the community seems to have swung in the opposite direction and AFDs with only one or two edits are now much more common than they used to be, or so it seems to me anyway. I think AFD got a bad rap because there were/possibly still are too many regulars with a WP:BATTLE approach to the process and that turns a lot of people off. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Images available as a set of tiles

Was poking around wars that are underrepresented at FP. I don't think this is quite there - it's not exactly a high-EV item, it's sabre-rattling propaganda with an unrealistic composition: http://dl.lib.brown.edu:8080/ImageServer/scrollnav.jsp?filename=1176346232375000.jp2 Still, propoganda has its place in historical documentation, and it's in use. However, when it was uploaded to Misplaced Pages it was cropped. Now, there's reasonable debates to have about including the information outside the main lithograph borders in specific Misplaced Pages uses. However, A. we should have the version with the title and such, which was definitely part of the artistic intent, and B. If the image is tilted, it should be rotated before cropping. If you look on the left of the version we have updated, you'll see a triangular wedge, showing it wasn't rotated to straight before cropping.

Anyway, the image that led me to the site probably isn't the most valuable on it. Something like http://dl.lib.brown.edu/repository2/repoman.php?verb=render&id=1302200074363500 or http://dl.lib.brown.edu/repository2/repoman.php?verb=render&id=1203005953500000 is probably far more valuable to us - but I get off topic.

To get to the point: For the common situation where the highest-resolution version of the image can only be downloaded as a set of tiles, what software, people, or alternate message board should I go to? Adam Cuerden 22:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Not even sure this is the question you're asking, but if you need an extremely high filesize file to be uploaded (past max upload limit), you can file a request in bugzilla for it to be done server side. Legoktm (talk) 22:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) commons:Help:Zoomable_images is a good place to start, although at a glance it doesn't look like any of the scripts will work with the brown.edu site unmodified. If that's actually the case and you don't feel like coding but are still determined to get an image, you can just get the tiles by hand one at a time and then use Photoshop/GIMP/Imagemagick to stitch them together. VernoWhitney (talk) 22:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

At full zoom, there are literally thousands of images to stitch together, which is effectively impossible to do by hand. Adam Cuerden 22:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I know ImageMagick handles hundreds of files just fine, so it should be able to do thousands as well, and setting up a script to just download them all as a batch shouldn't be too hard. Was that first file for the 18th Royal Irish the one you were really interested in for right now? VernoWhitney (talk) 22:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Range block needed

We've got an IP editor in the 65.88.88.xxx range that is only editing to use the article talk pages as a forum. So far the posted from 65.88.88.253, 65.88.88.203, and 65.88.88.41 (that I'm aware of).

Is it possible for someone with an understang of how to range blocking to apply few day to week long one to the range?

Thank,

- J Greb (talk) 00:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Blocking 65.88.88.0/23 might be best, but let me check for collateral damage first. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 00:06, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

An anon-only block on that range should be okay. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 00:09, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

OK... th down side is, though I've got the mop, I haven't done a range block. Just drop 65.88.88.0/23 into the regular block page? - J Greb (talk) 01:15, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes. There's some more info at mw:Help:Range blocks. Legoktm (talk) 01:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• As long as we're talking range blocks here, User:Mbz1 mis doing some very obvious IP socking at User talk:Drmies. One IP has been blocked but they have posted from two or three others. Despite the obviousness I suspect the community would find me "involved" due to past conflicts with this user and the admin who blocked the one IP does not appear to be on-wiki at the moment. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The history of the talk page shows no two recent IPs that can be put into any rangeblock; it's too wide.--Jasper Deng (talk) 20:29, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh well. I guess doing a little whack-a-mole with the individual IPs probably won't discourage them either, nothing does. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:35, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Suggest a code of conduct: If you favor article deletion, try to avoid changing the article, particularly removing large sections of it

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have seen someone put a label on an article to delete it. They then removed over 2kb of text. This message is NOT to complain about a specific article but is to alert others to try to avoid conflicts of interests.

This is a clear conflict of interest. I can see why some people may want an article deleted. If so, they can start the process. However, they should not start removing text from an article. To really be clear of a conflict of interest, they should actually stop writing anything in that article, though a good faith and genuine attempt to improve it would probably be ok.

In real life, that might be like petitioning the city to condemn a house and get it torn down. In the mean time, they are allowed to spray graffiti on it or bring in a bulldozer and tear down the garage.

People should write here to show their support that those who favor an article be deleted should generally refrain from writing in that article, at least temporarily. SupportMelissaKetunuti (talk) 01:09, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Articles are not ever deleted because of the text they do or don't contain (excepting things like widespread copyright violations and the like). There is no "conflict of interest" to deleting an article after text is removed because the absence of that text does not make the article more likely to be kept following an AFD discussion, nor does its presence make it more likely to be retained. The main reason for deletion is the suitability of the topic itself as the basis of an article, and that is quite independent of the amount or quality of the article text. --Jayron32 01:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

An article can be deleted because it is poorly written. Or it can be an important article but the text that shows its importance is removed. By ruining an article, the chance of deletion increase. Why not just maintain the highest ethics by not removing stuff if you propose that the article be deleted? Jayron, you are encouraging potentially questionable behavior. I am for acting ethically. SupportMelissaKetunuti (talk) 01:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Because none of what you said is true, SMK. No article is ever deleted because it is poorly written, unless it is so poorly written as to be incomprehensible. And an article's importance can be stated just as well in the deletion discussion as on the article itself. Furthermore, as you have found, an article's history is preserved regardless, and everyone who participates in a deletion discussion can see it if they choose. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

If references are deleted, for example, then it can be buried in the history and never found except by a detective with hours of spare time.

Sample

Look at this article with stuff removed. It looks questionable whether the article should exist. If you look at the unedited article, it's clear that it should exist....

Geoffrey Till, FKC (born in London, England, on 14 January 1945) is a British naval historian.

The son of Arthur Till, a Royal Air Force officer, and Violet Till, Geoffrey Till studied at King's College London, where he received his B.A. in 1966. Then, he went on to complete his MA in 1968 and PhD in 1976 at the Department of War Studies, King's College London.

On a NATO Defence Fellowship, he was a visiting scholar at the United States Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, California.

POSSIBLE REACTION: So what, delete this Geoffrey Till guy.

Return to discussion

I am frankly shocked that people are rushing to the defense of conflicts of interest. It would be ok if someone wrote "that's not too common". However, there is overwhelming support of those who want deletion and, in the meantime, delete parts of the article. If you are for deletion, you should either temporarily stay away for the duration of the debate or only make uncontroversial and clear improvements. SupportMelissaKetunuti (talk) 01:35, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethically, if an editor encounters an article that they think does not belong on Misplaced Pages and has issues, they should propose it for deletion and edit the article. Leaving garbage in an article probably hurts its chances at AFD more than helps as people read it. Removing undue weight, unsourced allegations, poor sourcing - all of that should be done regardless of one's view about an article. That is how to act ethically. Telling someone to ignore a problem is simply unethical. Ravensfire (talk) 01:32, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

That's the first logical response so far! Then those that favor deletion AND remove stuff should do so very carefully to avoid a conflict of interest. Those that favor retention will clearly try to improve the article. Those that favor deletion should be extremely careful not to make it look like they are destroying the article. If others agree with the last two sentences, we are on the same page! SupportMelissaKetunuti (talk) 01:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

There no inherent conflict of interest. The only interest here is the creation of an encyclopedia. That's it. Trying to assign motives to people like you are doing is counter to Misplaced Pages's goals and pillars. You need to STOP doing that. You aren't happy that an article you created is being proposed for deletion - you aren't the first one. A far better use of your time would be to read up how you can show the subject is notable and work to improve the article through good sources and improve the writing in the article. But trying to blame people for doing what they think is correct (and that nobody else has seen a problem with) is going to lead you down a dark path. Ravensfire (talk) 01:43, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

You are wrong. You accuse of me creating an article. I have done nothing like that.

Besides, Ravensfire, you are also wrong when you write... Trying to assign motives to people like you are doing is counter to Misplaced Pages's goals and pillars. You need to STOP doing that.....(THEN YOU DO JUST AS YOU ACCUSE, 'TRYING TO ASSIGN MOTIVES TO PEOPLE')......But trying to blame people for doing what they think is correct SupportMelissaKetunuti (talk) 01:46, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

You think what you're doing is correct. They think what they're doing is correct. Tough. See dispute resolution for how these things are handled on Misplaced Pages. We certainly don't handle them by banning people from making edits based on their opinion of a subject's notability. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:38, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• The removal of reams of unsourced personal opinion was, as you put it, an "uncontroversial and clear improvement". Your user name suggests that you are editing with the agenda of advocating for Melissa Ketunuti, which the content of your edits confirms. That's totally not what Misplaced Pages is about. Reyk _YO! 01:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• I think SMK is referring to the article Murder of Dr. Melissa Ketunuti and the edits made by WilliamJE. All I can say is go talk with the other editor first if you disagree with an edit. If you still disagree, bring it to the Dispute resolution noticeboard. As for the deletion attempt, you can simply remove the proposed deletion tag if you don't agree with it. I could nominate it for AfD if you would prefer to continue this debate in a more appropriate environment. Funny 03:34, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• There are two kinds of changes: those meant in good faith to improve the article, and those meant to strip it of meaningful content. I've done many deletions of promotional or copyvio material from articles at AfD to make them more acceptable. Sometimes the amount that needs to be removed is most or even almost all of the article. On the other hand, sometimes people have removed essentially everything, usually with the excuse that the references for it aren't adequate, and sometimes even proposed it for speedy as no content or context. So,Often indeed much of the content of an article is material which cannot be documented or where the documentation is totally unacceptable, but if removing them would leave the material without substance worth saving, the AfD should be the place to say so. If anyone can think of a simple wording to distinguish the possible cases and where to put it, that might be helpful.

But it isn't wise to try to change policy to accommodate disputes over a single article or to deal with a one-time special case. If something in particular needs doing that isn't covered by the rules, or someone is being disruptive in a way we have not yet specified, that's why we have IAR. DGG ( talk ) 05:44, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• In this case, the removal of this was absolutely correct anyway, the article itself isn't the place for claims about its own notability, nor for documentating an imaginary Misplaced Pages "incident". Black Kite (talk) 23:29, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of material can make an article more likely to be kept

In some cases, a very, very bad article, with a lot of fringe or unreliable content, can switch from Delete to keep after enough of the bad material is deleted, letting the small amount of good material be seen and evaluated. Adam Cuerden 06:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Witness Neuroepistemology (AfD discussion), for example. Uncle G (talk) 12:01, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the prod. It should go to AfD, where it will be deleted. The IP is probably a sock geolocating to Rio. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 14:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Editors that are swayed by the remove of content as to keep an article at AFD over a delete need to be reminded that AFD is not for cleanup; an article in bad shape but otherwise meeting inclusion requirements shouldn't be deleted just because its in bad shape. --MASEM (t) 15:12, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

The article was AFD by me and not because the story needed cleanup. I've worked on badly written articles, especially those of notorious sockpuppeteer Ryan kirkpatrick, before he was banned. I do however avoid cleanup work on articles I either plan to AFD or think will be deleted eventually simply because I don't feel like wasting my time. Any articles I AFD are for notability, not memorial, etc not because they are sloppy.

Also I feel a need to comment on the removal of the PROD. On his talk page, Nathan Johnson wrote- "The PROD was contested by a new user. I simply removed the tag for xem." Nathan has to be referring to SMK. SMK was told not once but twice about removal of PRODs. While SMK is a new user, he has been savvy enough to find this board, read up on what SPA means, and more. He had opportunity to remove the prod but chose not to. Nathan overstepped by taking down the PROD....William 15:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion is for uncontroversial deletions that don't meet the speedy deletion criteria. This does not meet the speedy deletion criteria. This is not an uncontroversial deletion. Therefore, use articles for deletion. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 16:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

That wasn't the rationale you wrote on your talk page- "The PROD was contested by a new user. I simply removed the tag for xem."...William 17:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

•  Administrator note At a glance I don't see that anyone else has mentioned this, so just for processes sake: This is not the place to make policy proposals and the chance of an actual policy change coming from a discussion on this noticeboard is basically zero. If you want to make a real policy proposal that has at least a chance of being implemented use WP:RFC or WP:VPP, and list the discussion at WP:CENT. This is a matter for the broader community, not just admins and those that watch this page. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Need closers for WT:Requests_for_adminship/2013 RfC/1

The first round closes around midnight EST on Tuesday. I'd prefer just a little discussion of how the closers want to approach this before the actual deadline, since a theme here is that the standard RfC format hasn't worked for this problem, and I (and the voters) will be looking for your ideas. I was hoping for 3 closers. - Dank (push to talk) 17:44, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I saw this comment as I was about to post a reminder message to WP:BN. I take it no one's offering?—cyberpower _Online 18:38, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Continuing topic ban violations by Apteva

As documented here since Jan. 10, Apteva continues to violate the topic-ban that the community overwhelmingly supported, which said (see ):

Apteva's persistent pushing of the theory that en dashes are never appropriate in proper names, such as the names of wars, comets, bridges, and airports, and his pushing of the theory that the MOS does not apply to article titles, has been disruptive. Based on the consensus reaction of the community, Apteva must refrain from any further advocating of these positions, or any position against en dashes or against the MOS being applicable to article titles, and must not make any page moves or RMs based on such theories. Violation of this topic ban will be grounds for an immediate block and/or a request for arbitration.

Unfortunately, the closer's statement of the ban to Apteva left him too much room to test the boundaries, by omitting mention of the part that I bolded above; he wrote:

Based upon both the below discussion and the linked RfC/U, it is clear that Apteva has exhausted the patience of the community in this area. On these grounds, the following is enacted: Apteva is topic banned indefinitely from modifying or discussing the use of dashes, hyphens, or similar types of punctuation, broadly construed, including but not limited to at the manual of style and any requested move discussion.

On Jan. 10, the closer User:Seraphimblade clarified:

For my own thoughts here, I would say that this edit is clearly related to Apteva's activity in the area of dashes/hyphens, and that this is both a violation of the ban and that no extension of the ban is necessary for it to be covered as such. I would see this as a clear attempt at gaming the ban by not technically mentioning the previous dispute subject.

Apteva's latest violation of the community-imposed topic ban is yet one more attempt to modify a policy page to not say that the MOS is applicable to TITLE styling: this diff – not just by advocating his approach, which would be banned behavior, but actually modifying the policy page! (I reverted)

This time, an enforcement block is unquestionably needed. Dicklyon (talk) 18:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

This is simply an editor who loves to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a wp:POINT being disappointed that I was not blocked. The discussion on my behavior wasted countless hours and occupied 134 pages of text (about half a million bytes). Apteva (talk) 18:44, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you escaped a block (and "merely" received a topic ban) should hardly be read as condoning your behaviour. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:58, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, this looks rather to be an editor who likes to WP:GAME the project by testing out the exact limits of their community-imposed topic ban, whether out of spite or just for the hell of it. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I certainly did learn from the experience, and have no intention of gaming or testing. I am here solely to improve wikipedia and no other purpose. Apteva (talk) 19:23, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Continuing to toe the line this way, after coming so excruciatingly close to a block last time around, is a remarkably foolish thing to do. Enough of this at ANI, I think a block is needed. Basalisk ⁄_berate 19:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Gotta love it how people quote topics that sound applicable but are not. "Gaming the system means deliberately using Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines in bad faith to thwart the aims of Misplaced Pages." My edit was solely to improve the link and make it more useful. Apteva (talk) 19:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• What exactly is the allegation here? I'm not seeing anything particularly controversial about the edit which was allegedly the cause of this thread... Carrite (talk) 19:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The offending edit removed the see-also link "* Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (article titles) – for guidance on styling of titles", replacing it with just a generic link "* Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style", which was a step in pushing his disruptive agenda to say that the MOS does not apply to TITLE styling (see the bold in the resolution that the community overwhelming supported, above). He has been at this for many months, wasting megabytes of disruptive discussion at many venues, but refuses to ackowledge that consensus is against him. Dicklyon (talk) 20:17, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• (ec) This is part of the continued WP:IDHT problems discussed at the RfC/U and the topic ban. Although with this edit Apteva did not explicitly mention dashes and hyphens, it's part of the same dispute, from what I can see (and similar to what prompted Seraphimblade's clarification quoted above). The final clarification/warning from Seraphimblade has apparently not had much of an impact, so unfortunately we are left with blocking as the next measure. As they have not previously blocked for violating the topic ban, I would suggest a 24-hour block. Paul Erik 19:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'll reiterate that I think this behavior is clearly part of the problem that led to the topic ban, as "Does MOS apply to titles?" was a common topic of contention during it, and Apteva's involvement with that question was overwhelmingly as relates to dashes. I don't have any particular opinion as to what the answer to that question should be, but it was an area Apteva was involved in as regards dashes and hyphens. I'm not impressed with the behavior here, and would not object to rewording the sanction if we need to do that, but the idea was to stay away from that area, not try to nitpick at technicalities. Seraphimblade 21:31, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Request for review

Hi all, earlier today Media-hound- thethird (talk · contribs) was reported on ANI for misusing his talk page while blocked; to make a long story short, I ended up indeffing him without talk page access. I extended the block to indefinite because the user was displaying a massive battleground mentality which, in my opinion, is better handled through an indefinite block than a time-limited one; I also revoked this editor's ability to edit his talk page, because he was clearly abusing it. As such, I believe that both the indefinite part of the block and the no-talk-page one are necessary, because each one addresses part of the disruption caused by him. The combination, however, may appear draconian, as another administrator has pointed out on my talk page. So, here I am, asking for a review of my actions. Salvio 21:29, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

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