Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:08, 5 January 2013

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Free Speech

There used to be a thing called Freedom of Speech on one's own talk pages, because how could one get away with saying "Happy Xmas", even though that had NOTHING to do with "building an Encyclopedia"? The (syn)tax inspectors have taken over the building, and they are not going to allow anyone to disagree with them. This place used to be about communication, but it's not anymore. It's about CONTROL. Sad, but true. Amen...--andreasegde (talk) 20:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Free speech has never existed on the talk page since that only applies to the government. Please see WP:SPEECH. That being said it may be better to know what the actual issue is because we have no way of knowing if you may have been treated properly or not.--64.229.167.20 (talk) 20:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear: "Free speech has never existed... that only applies to the government". I am shocked. I was making the point that editors used to be able to say anything on their own talk pages, but this freedom has now been cancelled, because one can only refer to subjects that are concerned with "building an Encyclopedia". Freedom of Speech has been cancelled. I would say, "Happy new Year", but that is not allowed.--andreasegde (talk) 21:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide a diff to show what you are talking about? GB fan 21:40, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Hmm? Why would saying, 'good day,' 'merry hello,' or 'happy Kwanzaa,' etc., to another editor automatically be seen as not building an encyclopedia? Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Without a diff to provide some context, this is just a pretty useless thread ... I'd love to be able to resolve the issue, if I knew what the heck the issue was. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

A's usertalk history doesn't help. I looked the first page it to see if someone had deleted a nice Christmas greeting... it's just him/her deleting block notifications, etc. PhnomPencil (✉) 21:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Seeing two Merry Christmas messages on this very page, I'm questioning the successes of our campaign to eradicate merriment. In all seriousness, editors are given considerable leeway to use their talk page to discuss things that are tangential to improving the encyclopedia, as long as most of their activity is related to building the encyclopedia and the content doesn't violate any important rules. Editors do also have considerable freedom to express unpopular views, as long as they are about editing Misplaced Pages and they do it the right way, avoiding things line personal attacks. There are very few ideas that get you sanctioned or blocked just for expressing them. Monty₈₄₅ 22:17, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I think we should indeed give editors the freedom over their user pages and not try to prohibit "blogs" or "canvassing" - otherwise groups like Wikipediocracy simply take over those roles, which are less accessible and not democratic and don't have to follow any rule at all we might want to retain. Allowing those functions would also tend to draw more people in because they would appreciate the resource, but in the process they would become familiar with the markup and might be recruited into article writing. Wnt (talk) 15:03, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

OP's comments are rather ambiguous, but they aren't complaining about anyone being blocked for posting a Christmas message, but rather using the idea of blocking one for such as "not building an encyclopedia" as an analogy, and given where this complaint seems to come from, a terrible one at that. This seems to stem from User:Penyulap's block. And while I don't know anything about that situation, the very nature of OP's generic ranting makes it hardly worth consideration. If there is a complaint to be made, just make it. Resolute 15:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I apologise for the misunderstanding, but I wasn't talking about posting a Xmas message, I was talking about if one is allowed to say (with no insults or aggressive behaviour), about something that one is accused of, something that one disagrees with, or just expressing one's own opinions about anything at all. If all we are allowed to talk about is "building an encyclopedia", then our conversation/communication would be severely limited. Where is the line, where is it drawn, and who defines it? Since 2006, I have been guilty of posting tons of comments on my own talk page that had absolutely nothing to do "building an encyclopedia" --andreasegde (talk) 22:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

You should learn some "mutual respect". In this case, everyone should respect the host of this "private" talk page. By that means Jimbo has the privilege to remove what he considers offensive and unwelcoming. Leaving a message in other user's talk page is also a privilege granted by the WMF, you are obligated to obey Misplaced Pages policies on user talk page, not the US laws. If this is a "public" area under the US law, you can do whatever you want without Jimbo's approval. So stating "conversation/communication would be severely limited" for managing one's own talk page is an insult to every Wikipedian who is given a private user talk page the minute they submit an edit to Misplaced Pages. Jimbo's position on those baseless yet cleverly spun reports (which in your view is just "expressing one's own opinion") is sufficiently to be removed from this talk page. You may discuss those topics elsewhere, but definitely not here, and there is no ground to call Jimbo a tyrant for limiting freedom of speech in his own talk page. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I beg your pardon? Calling "Jimbo a tyrant"? I most certainly never did. How dare you accuse me of that?--andreasegde (talk) 18:15, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• A couple comments. (1) Freedom of speech is a human right. It can not be arbitrarily erased at Misplaced Pages because somebody decided once upon a time to make WP:NOFREESPEECHHERE part of company policy. It can only be a human right that is violated. (2) It follows that people have a right to say whatever they want on their talk pages, so long as they are here to build an encyclopedia and not for ulterior or nefarious motives. Carrite (talk) 03:32, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Sure, you can say anything you want, using your own lungs and breath. But once you decide to use someone else's website to "say" (that would be, electronically publish) something, you have to follow their rules. Jclemens (talk) 04:22, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

"Someone else's website..." — Exactly, J. Clemens. The violators of free speech, being ArbCom or the Administrative caste, "claim" the website as "theirs" and restrict free speech rights of participants. It's a power play and it is a violation of fundamental rights of human expression. Misplaced Pages is ours not yours... The church is the sum of its members, not a super-select priesthood... Carrite (talk) 17:19, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• • Yup: wrong, for the simple reason that talk pages don't belong to the user: they are a facility provided to Misplaced Pages contributors for the purposes intended. There is no 'human rights' law that says that individuals have to be provided with free webspace, or with any other medium of communication. I have a 'right' (subject to the limitations of libel law etc) to write a book on The Role of Arthur Askey in the Apollo Moon Landings Project. I don't have the right to demand it be published. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:28, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
  • (1) This is clearly not the place to debate what is human rights. But my view is, a right without protection by the law is meaningless, powerless. You can't shout at another person on Mars to not kill you because you have the innate right to live and the offender will be punished legally. Human right is only violated when the written law says so. But you will never agree with me on this so no need to argue anymore. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 04:38, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Just reading through this thread I can see a good deal of freedom from the OP to NOT be concise or just plain clear. I wish I understood what this was about. Even reading through the Free speech thread on User:Penyulap's (the original comment is a copy paste from a Dec 26 post on that user's talpage) page I can't seem to figure it out. Certainly this isn't just a commentary on freedoms per policy or guidelines but seems to be some kind of community appeal against Penyulaps block. Almost looks like campaigning.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
      • We seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot here, Amadscientist, so to give some background this Ani thread from a few months back may be of assistance, as it resulted in a one year topic ban and subsequent one week block to the OP for a vio of the parallel interaction ban. There is also a heaping helping of the truly bizarre (in my view) writings of the gone and mostly unlamented Penyulap. As I see it the admittedly lengthy process, of which I was a part, illustrates an example of Misplaced Pages sanctions working well: the community, at long last, had had enough. Now the OP is reduced to cryptic complaints on Jimmy's page. Oy. Jusdafax 08:06, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
        • Sorry if we got off on the wrong footing. Yes, I am familiar with User:Penyulap's "truly bizarre writings" (a view I share as well). I just can't seem to fathom what this post is supposed to be, if not just way to force this back into the spotlight to make Penyulap feel like they are being "Represented". If the usual Misplaced Pages:Standard offer is not adequate, then I can't help but feel this is an exraordinary reason to object to a return by Penyulap in the future.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I am not surprised that an editor above (Jusdafax), has made another negative statement about myself. If he enjoys it so much, that's fine with me.--andreasegde (talk) 18:15, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

So then why comment on it in a passive-aggressive manner so as to increase the level of dramah? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 18:20, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

You'll have to explain "passive-aggressive" to me first.--andreasegde (talk) 18:32, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, let me put it this way: if it really didn't bother you, you would not have mentioned it, period. But you mentioned it, therefore it does bother you and you really do want him to stop ... (✉→BWilkins←✎) 18:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Let me put it this way; he will not stop, so what can I do about it? Nothing. I can only turn the situation into something positive, which is to accept that it makes him happy. When one reaches that conclusion, the situation is neutralised.--andreasegde (talk) 18:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm...I see nothing in Jusda's sole post here that in any way resembles a negative statement about you. Your original post is referred to as cryptic (which it is, and you still have failed to clarify), but there's nothing disparaging about you. Could you actually tell what this is really all about so that someone, somewhere can make a logical and well-researched response? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 18:50, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

OK. If one is only allowed to talk about "building and Encyclopedia" on one's own talk page, it would obviously limit conversation. As one editor said elsewhere, "A certain degree of collegiality and banter is tolerated", but my question is who tolerates it, and where is the line drawn? As the encyclopedia that says, "Anyone can edit", is it not confusing when the rules are so unclear, and open to personal interpretations by Admins? Clarity is paramount.--andreasegde (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

No ... jurisprudence and the will of the community typically slides into place. Misplaced Pages is not based on rules it's based on community-built conventions. One of the key pillars of Misplaced Pages is that there are no strict rules - one of the reasons that many discussions in AN or ANI relate to the "undoing" of someone else's actions that in many cases did meet the "rule". If you're just being hypothetical, you're really not succeeding. If you have a specific issue that someone should look at, you're failing at it too. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 20:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

"One of the key pillars of Misplaced Pages is that there are no strict rules"? Incredible. As for the rest of your comment, I can only surmise that you are trying to be difficult. I wish you the best.--andreasegde (talk) 05:26, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

We're all sometimes difficult in our own ways, but that doesn't mean we're trying to be. As for "incredible", See the fifth item at Misplaced Pages:Five pillars. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:30, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Andreasegde, I wish you'd tell us what the hell you are on about, or find something more useful to do. Of course there aren't 'strict rules' about what you can do on Misplaced Pages talk pages - Misplaced Pages isn't here to provide free web-page talk space, it is here to provide an online encyclopaedia, and we have better things to do with our time than lay down exact specifications for what is and isn't permitted under every possible circumstance. This is both unnecessary in principle and impossible in practice. If you find this concept difficult to grasp, find another website that has simpler rules: though most such websites tend to go by the rule "you can't post here"... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:40, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

'Nuff said.--andreasegde (talk) 06:18, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Sure.....when we point blank ask why you are posting this copy pasted comment from another editor's talk page, you ask about a non existing user talkpage policy about only discussing "building and Encyclopedia" and say "..confusing when the rules are so unclear". The guideline about only discussing improvements to the article is for the article talkpages only. We don't have hard, fast rules or instructions, we have guidelines and many times these can and will be ignored if it improves the encyclopaedia. I am just curious, if this was copypasted from a blocked user's talkpage , whose access to said talkpage has been revoked and returned mulitple times for so many different reasons....is this nothing but you campaigning on their behalf?--Amadscientist (talk) 06:43, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I was the author of all the posts.--andreasegde (talk) 14:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Let us be perfectly clear, there are many actions taken to restrict people's ability to edit which are based not on mature, thoughtful and humane consideration, but upon, possibly well meant, immature, rushed or hard hearted assumptions. These may often be summed up as "I don't like it" or even "I don't like you". Reasons are rarely given, when they are they usually miss the point. In the case cited (and I have seen maybe half a dozen similar cases) it took a very great deal of work merely to get talk page access restored.

I have been reluctant to criticize those involved, but it seems to me that the underlying problem is that many people, when they are in a position where they have routinely to issue blocks, forget that a block is, in fact, a big deal, especially when you are on the receiving end.

Rich Farmbrough, 19:07, 30 December 2012 (UTC).

There may or may not be a significant number of poor blocks, but I don't think the statement that "reasons are rarely given" for blocking or imposing restrictions is accurate. In some cases people may disagree with the reasons, and in a few cases there may even be an overwhelming consensus that a reason was rotten, but that's not the same as saying no reason was given. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:30, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Take for example two accounts blocked as sockpuppets of each other (we normally only block one) when they had been warned by an Admin and only made good faith edits afterwards (details here) - even now they have no notification on their talk page. But what I meant was that when challenged reasons are rarely forth-coming. Talk page sections are blanked, mantras are repeated. It seems to me that if we are to block people we should be able to fully defend that decision. And I think that is a broadly held view. Rich Farmbrough, 20:26, 31 December 2012 (UTC).

You can't "fully defend" anything when there's no hard and fast rule. Especially when someone is bound to reject the defense anyway. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:52, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Well that is the exact wording used for Checkuser. It seems to me that blocks should not be handed out lightly. And thought should be given to the difference between blocking a casual editor and someone who has a tight schedule of work that is going to be disrupted. Ideally of course, blocks would not be necessary. I would argue that we can very close to that ideal with established editors, without too much effort. Rich Farmbrough, 03:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC).

Going out on a limb here... Merry ChrisFSMas, happy Pastover, and have a good Ramendan. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

As much as I applaud your good wishes, the point is if it has anything to with "Building and Encyclopedia." If not, you are in the firing line.--andreasegde (talk) 20:39, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The admin problems

Hello Jimbo,

I am pretty sure you are aware of the gigantic snowball of fighting that has been going around our Misplaced Pages and Admin Noticeboards the whole day today. If you arent, a quick look at the Admin's noticeboards might help.

I would request you to comment here. IMO this looks like one of the plausible quick-solutions which can stop the avalanche. The downside - Its not as "optimal" or "fair" a solution as one would want it to be.

Please tell us what you think of it. We really need to stop this NOW.

Thanks and cheers, TheOriginalSoni (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Frankly, while a bit of a surprising dust-up, more of a tempest in a teapot. Jimbo has better things to do.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:14, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Community split

Boodlepounce suggests that when the community is split over how to handle this issue; the admin corps is divided; and the Arbitration Committee has failed to resolve the issue -- then a ruling from the God-King is needed. Boodlepounce invites Jimbo to decide between the principles: Does significant contribution to the encylopedia imply that an editor may be held to a lower level of civility than others; or is the civility policy to be applied equally irrespective of contribution history? It seems to Boodlepounce that a ruling in principle is required here. Boodlepounce (talk) 22:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

There is no such community split here - and imo no such thing as an "admin corps" - also Jimmy doesn't make god king rulings - happy new year - Youreallycan 03:45, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Boodlepounce, a mathematics focused user with 100 edit in the last year - who is that ? Youreallycan 03:49, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Your phrasing of the question belies your bias. An alternative phrasing would be: Should an editor's positive contributions to the encyclopedia be weighed against their act of incivility when considering a block, or should they be disregarded? Monty₈₄₅ 15:07, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

This all falls on Arbcom's lap, since they are the body designed to solve the problems the community can not. And as so often happens with Malleus, they chose to simply bury their heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away. The truth is, these problems will continue to exist as long as Malleus is an active exitor, simply because he is completely unable to change his own behaviour. A problem compounded and magnified by his enablers. Resolute 15:45, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Maybe. It seems there are a couple-few issues in play here:

1. The idea of vested editors in general, being treated differently regarding sanctions.
2. The idea of Malleus in particular, being treated differently regarding sanctions, due to the particular unique nature of his situation and case.
3. The future and fate of what I'll call Malleism, a (currently somewhat inchoate) ideology which may have a growing number of adherents. I can't exactly describe Malleism, but my feeling is its something along the lines of changing the Misplaced Pages to much more favor expert editors over the general run of humanity than is currently the case, with some particular points being the deprecating of WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, the existence of ArbCom, the nature and powers of the admin corps, and some other things. Sort of making the Misplaced Pages more like Citizendium, except valorizing experienced and talented editors rather than subject matter experts, if I understand aright.

Im not going to address #1 here, and as to #3, maybe the time has come for that, but that's a different conversation. As to #2, if that is the crux of the matter, then here is a proposed solution for the community to accept or reject as they wish. Herostratus (talk) 16:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has many expert editors who don't share these negative behavioural traits. Consequently, I find the premise of your third point to be a false dichotomy. Oh, and a pre-emptive and WP:POINTy MFD of your own essay will certainly help reduce the drama surrounding this editor. {rolleyes} Resolute 16:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of the number of edits they have or the speaking in the third person, I think Boodlepounce has it right the community is split. On one hand you have those folks whom Malleus interacts well with, who understand and accept his demeanor and antics and who think his contributions outweigh his tendency to drop the F bomb and verbally attack other editors he perceives as less worthy. On the other, you have some editors who know how he is and continue to provoke him, follow him around hounding him and just generally don't want to drop it. In both camps you have admins and experienced editors who should know better. I also agree that Arbcom failed to act. I also admit that I have in the past been at least moderately supportive of Malleus thinking that his contributions outweigh his demeanor. Much the same way some feel about me I suspect. But as I stated on his talk page, it really needs to stop. This is the sort of thing that drives away editors and gives us a bad reputation. Especially when it involves so many admins and experienced editors in the same day. This was quite frankly a disgraceful display of how the social interactions of Misplaced Pages have been eroded over time. I admit that I don't think Jimbo can or would intervene but it certainly warrants his attention I believe. Even if he chooses not to respond this is the sort of thing he should be aware of. Kumioko (talk) 16:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think an editor should be blocked or banned, unless they've comitted vandalism, engaged in mass edit-warring and/or used sock-puppetry. Having said that, the only way to insure the application of WP:CIVIL, is to make an Administrator's block unchallengable - i.e avoid wheelwarring. Thus the blocked editor would seek an unblock through the required request, which is the normal procedure. GoodDay (talk) 18:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that "Jimbo has better things to do". Jimbo was instrumental in the formation of the five pillars, and I think should at least be asked if they should go to four. Here they are:

• "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia." Content submitted that is not encyclopedic, even if it's really nice and really well-written, is rejected. Contributors who persist in submitting unencyclopedic content are similarly rejected via a block.
• "Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view." Again, advocacy pieces, even if they're really well done, are rejected. Similarly, POV pushers who will not stop are ultimately kicked off.
• "Misplaced Pages is free content that anyone can edit, use, modify, and distribute." Copyright violations are shot on sight, and those who persist in placing them are blocked.
• "Misplaced Pages does not have firm rules." That's the only one in question here. Should we make an exception under this pillar, to someone who deliberately takes a hacksaw to the final one? Malleus does, to be sure, create some damn fine articles.
• "Editors should interact with each other in a respectful and civil manner." I don't think anyone will argue that Malleus often falls short of this requirement, and even that's putting it charitably. If Malleus posted copyright violations, or hoax articles, or POV pushes, a tenth as often as often as (s)he posts attacks on other editors, Malleus would've been blocked indefinitely long ago, to little or no controversy. So do we IAR civility (with the attendant damage that will cause among other editors put off), or send Malleus off, given that it is clear Malleus either cannot or will not obey the civility pillar?

I actually think a comment from Jimbo would be welcome here, though it probably will not be forthcoming. Seraphimblade 18:49, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I would generally agree with that. Unfortunately it seems a lot of the Admins doing the blocking these days have a much lower requirement for blocking. I do also think that when a member of the community shows a repeated disrespect for their fellow editors some intervention of some kind may be needed. Kumioko (talk) 18:51, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know the editor or case, but a 1-week block for doesn't seem rightis a bit long, and an indefinite block for seems excessive. I have not changed my opinion that "good editing deserves consideration" in which a threshold around 1 per 1000 was proposed. Wnt (talk) 19:11, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

The first block is not for the edit but for the edit summary. Indefinite does not mean permanent or even necessarily long. Rich Farmbrough, 17:34, 1 January 2013 (UTC).

I stand corrected on the first. On the second, though, "indefinite" blocks become permanent too often; I don't see a reason not to set an upper limit if you're not trying to get rid of an editor entirely. Wnt (talk) 20:16, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

• @Claimed community split - Over 95 percent of all contributors to the project do not get involved and show no interest in these problems in any way and simply add and edit content in apparent attempts to improve it - Youreallycan 20:23, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Of course we can only count for positive or negative those who take and interest in and comment on the case. If that be 1%, 5% or 100%, the result shows a split. Kumioko (talk) 20:32, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes exactly - and this can in no way be described as a community split - the vast majority don't care at all about it and just want to add and edit article contest - the one percent vocal contributors are not and should not be here to control and disrupt it , but to aid and assist the other 99 percent to edit - - Youreallycan 20:39, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

• Monty sums up the issue pretty well above. I would note that in the real world, an employer will tolerate a great deal more from a star salesman than from the lowest performer. People tolerate a great deal of personal stupidity from Bill Clinton because they agreed with his policies and found his actual job performance to be very good. Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not. If you think of enwp is like a social network, then the contributions of someone like Malleus is no different than someone who edits as an IP a few times a week, so it isn't fair. If you think in terms of Misplaced Pages being a non-profit trying to build an encyclopedia and allowing each person the amount of rope they earn according to their deeds, then your answer may be different. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:52, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
• ArbCom (at least the 2012 edition) indicated that "the community" hasn't really addressed MFs behavior as indicated by Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Malleus Fatuorum being a redlink. If an editor thinks there's a long term pattern of editing that needs to be addressed, that's the way to go, not Rambo block & unblocks and AN & ANI postings which inevitably spiral out of control. Let's get off the merry go round, shall we? NE Ent 21:27, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
  • A good idea - we should have an RfC/U. My own feeling is that I'm not at all convinced that his good edits outweigh the civility problem. The issue to me is his effect on other editors - does he drive other editors away from Misplaced Pages? Does he make other editors unwilling to edit in certain areas? Are we sure there are no costs to Misplaced Pages, that the sum total of his good edits outweighs any negative impact his behavior has on the possible good editing of others? Dougweller (talk) 21:50, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
    • @User:Dougweller - Not a good idea at all - any RFC user about Malleus in a relation to civilly is an escalation in disruption - you will not get consensus for anything apart from this RFC user has raised conflict and disruption - I suggest you, and any other user for that matter, back off - be nice - attempt to get over any prior divisive issues and try to develop a more amicable environment here in 2013 - Youreallycan 21:59, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
    • The potential trouble with that, Doug, is that the issue is so very, incredibly heated that any RfC/U is almost certain to be derailed by those on one side going for the throats of those on the other (and vice versa). The community is basically incapable of handling the issue without becoming so bogged down in its own rage that all discussion ceases to be constructive. At which point the discussion dies, some people ragequit, and everything goes into hibernation...until the next time. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 22:15, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Perhaps this is exactly what needs to happen and, in fact, might just be where we are headed. No one wants to see a bareknuckle fight on Misplaced Pages with editors taking sides and fighting each other, but we cannot simply say "Forget it, its too messy". No, sometimes we need to forget what might happen and just allow "Whatever" to happen. We're just kicking the can down the road. I think an RFC/U is the right move. Of course...the reason an RFC/U never gets started is because there is no one really willing to do so. I have no reason to start one. Does anyone? If so...do it. It isn't that arbcom is saying no one should create one, they are simply pointing out that no one has.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:07, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
        • He currently isn't active. I recommend against it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:00, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
          • This is one of those rare moments when I disagree with you Dennis. He claims to be inactive and that may or may not be be true, but that makes no real difference. We both know that he announced retirement and remained active on a number of talkpages. I don't know if there was any content creation but there was enough discussion to be somewhat contentious or controversial. Admins blocking and unblocking each other over the single editor has some weight with what may or may not be sufficient reason to create the RFC/U. Frankly this is really just my opinion of the creation of the RFC, not of the editor. My last interaction with them was pleasant. I have no current gripes with them, just that they hold no special position within the community to be immune from blocking, sanction or a Request for Comment/User Conduct.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:02, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
            • The issue with an RFC is that it might very well just create more drama and reach no conclusion of any value. Rich Farmbrough, 03:44, 3 January 2013 (UTC).
              
              • There have been a few instances where an RFC/U was opened on an inactive user, and I think proposed sanctions will usually be suspended until the user has a chance to return. (In particular, that's what happened with a recent Arb request against an admin.) In any case, Malleus may very well be pursuing a clean start--which means the community might still benefit from his considerable editing skill. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:27, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I have to say that the most significant point out of this thread is one I have been mulling for some time, that YRC makes. The community, by and large, does not make decisions, express opinions, become split. It is only those of us that, through choice, force, duty or habit, frequent the dramah boards, the policy pages, RfCs and so forth that do this. It would be edifying, perhaps, if some of the !votes were compulsory, and more so if a "don't care get on with editing" option were supplied. Rich Farmbrough, 03:44, 3 January 2013 (UTC).

• And what is the Misplaced Pages community anyway? Misplaced Pages has thousands of users, but most of the time only a few screaming, anonymous trolls make decisions in the name of the community.71.202.120.247 (talk) 21:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
• There is really no such thing as "the community". There is a small subset of editors - probably only a couple of hundred at the most - who participate regularly in the noticeboards, policy pages, RFCs and so on. For the vast majority of editors, things like this Malleus silliness are just "sound and fury, signifying nothing". Personally I just ignore it and get on with writing articles. Prioryman (talk) 21:25, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

  I do not even believe there are a couple of hundred. Besides most of them are not editors, they are users. Editors add content to Misplaced Pages, and rarely participate in the discussions. Most users who regularly participate in the discussions do not add content to Misplaced Pages. 71.202.120.247 (talk) 21:38, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

In truth, if you are editing and not discussing you are breaching a core Misplaced Pages value. Saying that "editors" who add content rarely discuss is simply not accurate. It could be that you are simply talking about editors that work on obscure articles with little editing traffic. I love those articles. Nice and quite...until something hits the news or there is a general rise in interest due to film and television. Frankly there is little distinction as I don't believe there are Users" that add no content at all unless they are brand new and just observing to see how things are done. Not a bad idea actually.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that a lot of the drama would be cut if we limited certain actions to those who have put in a minimum of "sweat equity" or work into the content of the encyclopedia pages (and not the talk and other pages). We are already starting to go there with protected pages but I think we need to extend it. Most of the drama comes from a subset of users who spend almost all of their time here (if not all their time) in drama and conflict with other editors which makes a lot of work for admins. Lots of pages should have stronger protection than they do and only those editors who put in time on other, less controversial, topics should be allowed to edit. They would have much more to lose by causing problems than someone who created an account to POV push/edit war and what not. Id even go so far as to make editing requirements for certain other actions such as participating on RfDs and a lot of the other stuff as well as ditching IP editing for more than a few characters. The objection of course is that it ranks Wikipedians and violates "anyone can edit". However, if you think about it, not anyone can edit. Banned editors cant, people are not permitted to edit their own WP articles, company and PR guys are already heavily restricted under our rather draconian COI policy. IP's are not allowed to create articles. "Anyone can edit" should not have to mean any page at any time. WP is a HUGE undertaking and those who are really serious about contributing would not mind working on less controversial articles instead of the same small percentage. Its just a hoop to jump to allow trouble makers to weed themselves out and make banning after the fact less necessary.Thelmadatter (talk) 22:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

This idea is not without merit, and indeed, combining somethign like this with some of the suggestions at WP:WER has been on my mind. The trouble is that while it has a certain appeal, and might work in practice, it wouldn't work in theory. One example is Wikilings who think they have been treated unfairly go to AN/I - if things work as they should, they have the system, and the reasons for it explained gently and go away happy (other times they get boomeranged <sad face /> ). If they weren't allowed to AN/I it could create an underclass. (Or as some would put it, another underclass.) Rich Farmbrough, 03:58, 5 January 2013 (UTC).

Misplaced Pages in the news

The Daily Dot just published an article regarding one of our articles that was apparently a complete hoax and lasted for 5 1/2 years. I'm guessing that the damage from stuff like this is minimal because one likely wouldn't be searching for an event/person/etc that doesn't exist, but it makes you wonder how pervasive this very hard to identify brand of trolling is and what, if anything, we can do about it. Sædon 00:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm kinda disappointed. That article didn't even mention my favorite! The Michigan Canada Wars. Kumioko (talk) 00:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Well there's a small collection on my talk page, though mostly of hoax facts rather than whole articles. We do need a little humility over this type of thing, the fact that one cannot point to an error on Misplaced Pages, because the act of pointing makes it go away, does not mean that errors do not exist and persist for some time. There are some things we can do, but BEANZ applies. Rich Farmbrough, 21:05, 3 January 2013 (UTC).
    
    • This is actually not much of a surprise. Someone rightly pointed out last year that most of the low-hanging fruit on Misplaced Pages - the "easy" articles - has already been picked. What's left is increasingly specialised, which means that it's increasingly difficult to scrutinise because of the difficulty in finding sources and expertise. I would be very surprised if this was the only such hoax out there. It's quite likely that there are more waiting to be discovered. Prioryman (talk) 21:17, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Whoever pointed that out did so wrongly. The simple fact of the matter is that we have reams of "easy" articles left. Just look at the list in the box at User talk:Drmies#Thanks.... These are "easy" articles, inasmuch as not only do sources exist, but there are in several cases whole biographies of these people already accessible on the WWW. They were just created this week. Prior to that, we didn't even know that we lacked them. Discovering whole sets of articles that not only did we not have but we didn't even have listed on any of the lists of redlinks such as Skysmith's has become something of a pastime, and it happens regularly. I keep a list of some at User:Uncle G/Missing encyclopaedic articles. We didn't know that we didn't have Sagaan Ubgen, a major religious figure for quite a large portion of the world, until four months ago, and we only came across it by accident at User talk:Drmies/Archive 36#'sup.

        And then there are the articles that have sat as stubs or just drivel for years. North Asia (AfD discussion), an entire region of the planet, was a two-sentence stub for five years. Nun's Well, Cannock Wood was ghost-hunting drivel for six years. Diogenes and Alexander (AfD discussion), a subject that has two millennia of literature discussing it, took almost a decade for us to cover. Misplaced Pages:Concept limit is unmitigated claptrap of the first order. Don't for a second believe that the "easy" stuff, be that subjects that have in depth sources available on the WWW or subjects that are obviously major, is all gone.

        The hoaxes are not symptomatic of subjects being obscure. They are symptomatic of bad writing by bad writers going unnoticed for a long time. That's nothing to do with obscurity or difficult natures of the subjects. Indeed, due to the significant bias toward British topics in "Pommiepedia", it's hard to argue that Nun's Well, Cannock Wood is "obscure" to the editorship and "too difficult" for it. St Marys Church, Clophill isn't "obscure" and "too difficult" to the British editors, either. Yet the editorship at large only noticed that because the edit war among three single-purpose accounts over another lot of ghost-hunting drivel reached the administrator's noticeboard at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive777#St Marys Church, Clophill.

        Yes, William Henry Duignan is yet another article that we didn't even know that we didn't have. Black Kite is working on it at User:Black Kite/WHD.

        Uncle G (talk) 22:50, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

        • That's three different arguments, and I was making one of them to the Latter Day Saints on my doorstep last night - I think I converted them to Misplaced Pages, though one was from Belgium - and there are certainly many many topics that can be covered with a little research.

          It is true that one can no longer pick, say, a popular author, a common scientific concept, a major contemporary politician, a piece of mainstream classic literature to write a fresh article about.

          The question of identifying inaccuracies currently is not primarily linked to either of these, but more to the spectrum of readers of the articles involved. And certainly more obscure articles have less readers. Rich Farmbrough, 23:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC).
          

          • Rubbish. Sonnet 150, Sonnet 149, and Sonnet 148 are all still one-sentence stubs. Or are the works of Shakespeare somehow disqualified from being "mainstream classic literature"? Uncle G (talk) 00:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
            • Those three were not written by Shakespeare but by me, socking through a time machine. Rich Farmbrough, 01:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC).
              
• That's nothing, Gaius Flavius Antoninus was around for over 8 years! See Misplaced Pages:List of hoaxes on Misplaced Pages. In the case of Chen Fang, present for over 7 years, the author was a Harvard student attempting to expose the limitations of Misplaced Pages. There are many hoaxes on Misplaced Pages, both found and unfound, and we do our best to deal with them as we find them, but it is very difficult to combat a determined and smart hoax author, who is not above fabricating hard-to-access source materials. On the plus side, hoaxes generally do little harm, other than mislead people into thinking something exists when in fact it does not. The best way to fight hoaxes I think is just plain old fact-checking - experts read articles in their area and can smell when something is off. See for example this discussion about Bunaka, in which the claims of implausible water temperatures quickly drew suspicion from experts. Dcoetzee 00:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Some unwarranted accusations on Misplaced Pages ruin the reputation of a person

Jimbo,

• Here the blocking admin writes: "In addition, by browsing through the history I have just discovered that you have made those edits not just with your registered account but also with a number of IP addresses--that means that the edit-warring has been waged partly in a way that avoids scrutiny (contributions by 94.11.171.216 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 94.11.177.9 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and 77.100.46.44 (talk · contribs · WHOIS))."
• Here MailonLine writes: "And now the author has been accused of using pseudonyms to try to remove negative stories on his Misplaced Pages page."
• Jimbo there are plenty of evidences this user did try to remove negative stories from his Misplaced Pages page, but there are no evidences that are supporting the claim about using "pseudonymous to try to remove negative stories on his Misplaced Pages page", and "to avoid scrutiny". There are evidences that the user made a few edits without logging in, there are plenty of evidences the user could not get how Misplaced Pages works, but there are no solid evidences he tried to avoid scrutiny. Please see this edit, if which one of "pseudonymous" who allegedly was trying to avoid scrunity signs the post with his real name.
• Jimbo, could you please help this person?

Thanks.71.202.120.247 (talk) 20:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

From reading the apology in the Telegraph it looks like he pretty much ruined his own reputation. The Misplaced Pages article deals with the issue in a neutral manner with sources.--ukexpat (talk) 21:01, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a link to that Telegraph story? I'm reading the Mail Online story. If it contains inaccuracies about Mr. Ellory and Misplaced Pages that we could constructively help to correct, I would be happy to assist in doing so. That is, if the Mail accuses him of things that are false or that are not supported by the evidentiary log at Misplaced Pages, then it would be a kindness for us to point that out to them.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:22, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

@Ukexpat, I was talking about the blocking from Misplaced Pages not about the case with Amazon, or you believe that a person who ruined his reputation once has no right to be treated fairly? 71.202.120.247 (talk) 21:27, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Of course he has the right to be treated fairly, but I have no knowledge of the circumstances of the block so I cannot comment on that.--ukexpat (talk) 21:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Jim, this and this but I can't find the letter itself.--ukexpat (talk) 21:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Ukexpat, I am not even talking about the block now. I am only saying that there are no evidences he tried to hide his identity while editing Misplaced Pages.71.202.120.247 (talk) 21:34, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

If you have some way to reach him, you can recommend that he get in touch with me if he wants to talk about the circumstances of his block. I won't unblock him myself, obviously, but I'm happy to see if there is something useful and drama-reducing that I can do to allow everyone to move forward with dignity.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:32, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Like--Amadscientist (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

This was already discussed on Drmies page, now archived . It looks like a rather mundane block, done in September. He has never asked to be unblocked, and instead said he was going to "stay out of it". I added a note to his talk page with a link to emailing me and pointing to WP:GAB. Walking him through the reasons for the block and helping him understand shouldn't be that big of a deal. If you talk with him and want to point him to me for an unblock, if you like. This is no different than we do for other blocked editors that don't understand WP:BRD, and a typical editor retention function. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 07:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it was discussed on Drmies page. Drmies has never bothered to respond to me directly, but he did respond to other person's comment: " Don't know if I should be happy or not that those articles don't mention my name, but I guess it's for the better" like the most important thing was, if anonymous administrator Drmies was mentioned in the article. Besides according to you,Dennis Brown, Jimbo should not have taken a part in helping Richard O'Dwyer because this case was also discussed elsewhere.

Jimbo, I contacted the person yesterday. It was easy. He has a website with his contact information. Today I got the response. He writes that my email was the only light he saw in the last few days, and he accepted your offer with gratitude. He's traveling now, but he will contact you, when he's back home. Also, Jimbo, I believe that helping people who were treated unfairly on Misplaced Pages requires more personal courage than helping Richard O'Dwyer and a missing Kazakh journalist. 71.202.120.247 (talk) 16:30, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say Jimmy shouldn't do anything, I just pointed him to a discussion that had also taken place, which he probably missed. I haven't determined that he was treated fairly or unfairly. My offer was about moving forward, not judging the past. I would treat him the same as I treat every other editor, expecting him to follow policy and helping him understand community norms, offering some short term mentoring if needed. I work with these problems regularly, (thus the pointer to WP:WER above) so this isn't a "special offer" for just him; myself and others work frequently with blocked editors that need assistance in coming back. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:21, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Dennis, you write: "I haven't determined that he was treated fairly or unfairly." What prevented you from making the determination? There are many editors who are treated unfairly on Misplaced Pages, and sometimes nobody cares about fixing that unfairness. Would you like an example? Please see this block. The user did not vandalize the article. He made an encyclopedic edit that improved the article. This user has never vandalized any article at all, yet he was blocked as vandalism-only account, blocked by an abusive, protected admin, and nobody, nobody, Denis, has given a damn about the user who edited Misplaced Pages for 3 years, and as a reward got blocked as vandalism only account. This user has never bothered to write an unblock request, but how right it would have been, if somebody simply unblocked him back then. It is a splendid idea moving forward without judging the past, but remember "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it", so sometimes judging the past could result in preventing that past from repeating.71.202.120.247 (talk) 20:14, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Making such a determination is very time consuming, and not always productive. Pragmatically it makes more sense for most editors to attempt to move forward. It is certainly also the case that things go wrong on Wikipeida, at all levels of governance, but once again a certain amount of pragmatism is useful in trying to right these wrongs. I have notified Gwen Gale of this discussion. Rich Farmbrough, 04:58, 5 January 2013 (UTC).

John Stossel

Jimbo, I enjoyed seeing you on Stossel tonight. He said during the interview that his article had only one mistake. Did he tell you (off camera) what that one mistake is? --B (talk) 02:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

No, unfortunately because I joined by satellite, we had no real chance to chat before or after the piece.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Merchandise

Jimbo, FYI- you've been nominated by User:Anthonyhcole for some free merchandise over at Misplaced Pages:Merchandise giveaways. Thought I'd let you know. Go Phightins! 03:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure it's something you always wanted. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 03:55, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Defining a paper as a "taboid journalism" source

It used to be so easy to define what is and isn't a "Tabloid Journalism" source. Not so much any more. Due to the recent events that included our project (Misplaced Pages) in the news, about the article on the British publication "The Independent" in regards to the Leveson Inquiry and a hoax, I want the publication to be treated as fairly as possible. Yes...I discovered this after I had already removed use of the paper in a single BLP article that involved a dispute of the figure's date of birth, referring to it as a "tabloid jounalism" source. I took time to look at the article we have as well as research more about the paper. I conluded that it is a "Tabloid Journalism" source, but feel this requires further community input. For that reason I have started a thread on WP:RS/N here.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

By coincidence, I just quoted (or perhaps misquoted) you in that thread, Jimbo, on an occasion when you were questioning how reliable we should consider the Daily Mail (which I consider an interesting point of comparison to the Independent). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 07:40, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

A little context here - from Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Is the UK paper, "The Independent" a "tabloid journalism" source for BLP references? "This is in regards to the article Paloma Faith and the source used for dating the subject's date of birth, which appears to be in dispute". Frankly, I think that this is an appalling act of overkill over an issue of trivial significance. All newspapers make mistakes. That is no reason to rule them out as sources entirely. And policy states that we don't... AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:56, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I notice Amadscientist is making some rather strange claims about The Guardian being under 'community restrictions'. I'd like to see some evidence for that too... AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:02, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Andy is correct. That was a misunderstanding from another discussion on the Guardian Data blog. I dug it all back up to check. Thankfuly my mistake has little effect on the section that this was in regards to. The infomation was also found in another source that was already there. I will double check to be sure no content was lost that was sourced using it. I do know there was some content that was not sourced to either references that was removed. But thank you Andy. You were accurate and I was not. My apologies.--Amadscientist (talk) 11:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't consider The Independent to be a tabloid newspaper. All big name newspapers have printed mistakes before. Really the most egregious one would be the New York Times, but we still consider that to be reliable. It all depends on the specific article and what it's used for. I am hesitant to disqualify the use of any newspaper. Even the Daily Mail has useful articles. Silverseren 10:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

It's good to see that the Paloma Faith Problem has at last progressed beyond people waving uncertified purported copies of birth certificates around. But why The Independent comes into it as the primary bone of contention is puzzling. At Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive165#Paloma Faith I cited a source from the school that the subject attended, as well as a newspaper very local to the subject.

I'm not sure why Jimbo needs to be used for this, as clearly the subject has come up on the BLP Noticeboard. Perhaps people want Jimbo to use his celebrity contacts again and sidle up to Paloma Faith at some party to ask her: "Exactly how old are you?" It probably won't make the papers if you don't report the answer, Jimbo. ☺

"Sun Exclusive! Misplaced Pages Wales chats up Paloma Faith for Misplaced Pages 'People with Pseudonyms made me do it!' exclaims Encyclopaedia Entrepreneur. Independent slammed as "unreliable" by Wiki Workers. Guardian gagged. Only your Super Saucy Soaraway Sun left as reliable source by Wiki Officials slashing "tabloids". See pages 3,4,7,8,9,10,14,20. Amadscientist ATE MY HAMSTER!"

Uncle G (talk) 11:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I swear...I did not eat your hamster. But I digress. This really isn't meant for Jimbo himself to comment on. Not everything that comes here even deserves his particular attention, although I certainly would consider his opinion to be rather strong in this respect. No, this is a simple notification here because I know his talkpage stalkers are likely to weigh in and give good responses. This page is considered a sort of AN2.0. Hey....not all of us are in the UK to know the ins and outs of every publication there. That is why I am asking.--Amadscientist (talk) 11:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

And I have been mentioned in the press innaccurately from my Misplaced Pages edits, so I am keenly aware of the potential for ridiculous reporting. Trust me.--Amadscientist (talk) 11:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll first comment about The Independent, and then about the broader issue. The Independent is not normally regarded as a "tabloid" newspaper in the relevant sense. It's a smaller paper with an interesting history, founded by journalists, and more recently purchased by Alexander Lebedev and his son Evgeny. Not long after the purchase I met with Alexander and Evgeny (as well as editor Simon Kelner) and they talked about their plans for the paper and motives for buying it. (To sum up what they said but in my own words, they care deeply about journalism and democracy due in no small part to the difficult situation in Russia. I got the impression that they hoped to find a way to break even with the paper, but the goal of ownership was more about being good custodians of an independent source of journalism than about trying to make money.) Since then, Simon Kelner has departed as editor, and of course I have no way of knowing what their internal strategy is. I only report all this to say that we should be thoughtful about too quickly re-categorizing the paper as a tabloid, although if that is what it is, then of course we should respond accordingly.

The entire tradition of characterizing papers as "tabloid" or "non-tabloid" is fraught with peril, as others have noted. There are newspapers which have a strong and recent history of sensationalist headlines and lost libel suits which, through our own personal experience and experience as editors sifting through conflict sources we know are very sloppy with the facts. I would say that in a great many cases we should not use these as sources by default, with exceptions being made on a careful case-by-case basis.

Moving away from the UK context, I noted a headline on one of the US supermarket tabloids (Globe, I believe it was) last week declaring that "It's official!" that the Queen is abdicating and passing the crown directly to William, bypassing Charles. The story is so blatantly absurd (the Queen has no power to simply decree a change to the order of succession) that it is clear that they made it up out of thin air, or found some crackpot unnamed source and blindly wrote what they were told, or similar. I would say that if we have a single reference to this newspaper in all of Misplaced Pages, it should be subjected to extremely careful scrutiny. (Perhaps at some point they really did break a major news story in a truthful way?) But as a routine matter, it should be banned as a source completely. Most cases are not this clear, though.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for taking a minute to address this. You understood my concern was to treat the publication fairly and that I, myself, lacked the resources at hand to make the determination. There were some really good replies and I would also like to thank everyone else that commented...even Uncle G. I admit I don't always understand him, but the hamster thing made me laugh.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• On that subject, you should go and read Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#A little reading is also a dangerous thing., where it's OK that someone else read all of the same WWW rumours about a sex change operation (that only a few people know the truth about and they aren't saying) and canonized them in a book, even though it's patently not OK for us to read all of the same WWW rumours and canonize them. The book is "reliable", even when it outright tells us that its source was the same things that we looked at and picked through for years and didn't allow directly. This is actually more up your street than chatting up Paloma Faith for Amadscientist.

  In the meantime, here are the headlines again:

  "Register Exclusive! Bonkers Boffin wants to know age of Paloma Faith. Pokes Jimbo Wales into Popping the Question to Pop Princess. Yank thinks Brit journalists no good for the task. Slams Charlotte Philby as unreliable "tabloid" journalist . "Paloma and the Penetrators" erased from history by Wikifact cops as if they had never been. Guardian "has no fact checking or editorial oversight". Hey! Maddo! El Reg doesn't belong at the bottom of the budgie cage. Cite us!"

  Uncle G (talk) 13:37, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't think your characterization is at all accurate, Uncle G. What the Paloma Faith and Lynette Nusbacher cases have in common is sourcing that leaves little room for reasonable doubt as to what the facts of the matter are. At the end of the day, WP:RS is a means of ensuring accuracy, and once we know that the material is accurate it has done its job.

    There's also a separate issue, in both cases, about whether we should omit information from WP in order to prevent potential embarrassment to living people (PF's age and LN's sex at birth). Those are things that would need careful discussion before implementing, but editors favouring exclusion appear to have made a tactical decision that they are better off arguing sourcing, which is why things degenerate into surreal arguments about the Independent as a tabloid newspaper and Macmillan as a publisher of junk reference works.

    The nub of the thing is that concerns about content relating to living people should be dealt with by referring to W:BLP. WP:RS isn't for that. Formerip (talk) 14:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

    • It only "leaves little room for reasonable doubt" when one hasn't actually put any thought at all into the matter. What you are demonstrating over and over, FormerIP, is a lack of an ability to conceive the case that the "belief" of un-named sources, who weren't the person concerned or anyone else who knows, is a falsehood. The simple truth is that the facts are unknown. You are inventing knowledge with nothing to support it, and doing exactly what M. Nusbacher didn't want back in 2007: obsessing over publication of private medical information that you have no knowledge of and no source for, because the one thing that you do know is that the facts have not been made public by the only people who are privy to them.

      In stark contrast, with Paloma Faith we actually have people who have interviewed Paloma Faith, who has freely stated the existence of "Paloma and the Penetrators". It isn't a private medical matter. She has also given interviews to newspapers talking of her growing up in Hackney.

      That you cannot see the stark and large difference between the two scenarios — a private matter where we know that the facts have not been divulged to the public and a whole load of bad writers are reliability-laundering unfounded WWW gossip, rumour, and speculation by way of a book that clearly states that it is sourced to the WWW, versus a matter where we know that the subject has given interviews, freely spoken of her early years, and indeed has been reported upon by the very school that she attended — is not something to be proud of.

      M. Nusbacher, whose only public aspect is as an erstwhile history consultant on a television programme and as an occasional guest lecturer on the topic and who is otherwise not a public figure, is a lot more needful of Jimbo's aid than Paloma Faith. I hope that Jimbo forgoes chatting up Paloma Faith in favour of assisting M. Nusbacher.

      Uncle G (talk) 18:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

      • Everyone who has a biography on Misplaced Pages deserves fair treatment. I don't know much about either individual but we shouldn't say that one deserves more assistance than the other.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:09, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
        • Deserves: I have no comment upon. But needs: in this case, yes one definitely can and should say that one person's need is greater than another. Paloma Faith doesn't need Jimbo at all, because the situation with the sources has long since been in hand by the editorship at large, and the only problems are sifting through which sources are the superior information and which the echo chamber of errors when it comes to the birth year, and "Maddo" who expunged "Paloma and the Penetrators" from history.

          M. Nusbacher, on the other hand, is suffering from an invasion of privacy at the hands of Misplaced Pages volunteers who are laundering rumour into fact and using the "If it's written in a book, it must be true!" fallacy, even though they know that the people who wrote the book had no more way of knowing the facts that we do directly, because the facts are simply not publicly known.

          Uncle G (talk) 00:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Verifiability and sourcing

An interesting debate has come up at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Multiple_Civility_Issues_relating_to_RFC_on_Article_Talk_page-_Unsure_How_to_Approach about how verifiable something is if it is not sourced. An editor removed unsourced content from Synchronous motor on the basis that it was unsourced, but a bunch of editors with engineering backgrounds have restored it on the basis that it is easily "verifiable" despite not being sourced. I suspect what they really mean is that it is standard basic knowledge for engineers, but what you know to be correct from standard basic knowledge within your field is not necessarily what is easily verifiable right? Betty Logan (talk) 14:20, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• I haven't read the ANI thread in question, but based on your description here, this sounds like a tempest in a teapot. If the editors with engineering backgrounds consider this to be "standard basic knowledge", then at least one of them should have no trouble citing the fact to an engineering textbook or something similar. Add the source, and no problem. Resolute 14:23, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I wish they would! Betty Logan (talk) 14:55, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
    • An edit like this should not be made solely because sources are not cited. Unsourced material can and should be removed if it is challenged, but that challenge should involve some degree of genuine doubt as to its accuracy, rather than someone just deciding it would be better to clean up everything in an article that doesn't have an obvious citation. Now to be clear, the editor's impulse to get verifiability here is admirable, because it is easy to accept the truth of something like this without thinking it through carefully enough. But the right way to proceed is to try to look up sources for all the unsourced stuff, then quote on the talk page which parts you couldn't source and put a citation needed tag on each one, then delete them if nothing else happens after a bit. Wnt (talk) 15:36, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
      • I don't agree that material should be retained on the basis of being accurate, because the requirement is that it should be verifiable. Generally facts are more easily verifiable, but ultimately you don't demonstrate verifiability by demonstrating your knowledge, you demonstrate it by providing a source. To follow up on that edit specifically, the editor didn't just delete the content he moved it to the talk page, and after another a discussion with this editor I asked the Engineering Wikiproject if someone would be willing to track down some sources. I think those were reasonable steps, and I think a reasonable response would have been for one of the five engineers to point out a chapter in a textbook where this stuff can be found, rather than simply restoring it because they believe it to be accurate. Betty Logan (talk) 15:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
        • I don't agree that material should be retained on the basis of being accurate — Foolhardy is the person who comes to Jimbo's user talk page and tries to argue that accuracy isn't a goal, after ten years of his pointing out that it is. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 17:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
          • The goal of Misplaced Pages is the corroboration of information. It's an encylopedia not a tutorial. Betty Logan (talk) 18:09, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
            • Those two statements have no apparent relationship to anything that precedes them. Uncle G (talk) 23:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not suggesting material be retained because a majority of editors think it is accurate without checking - I do support the "verifiability, not truth" idea. But I don't think it should be taken out unless someone actually doubts that it is accurate, preferably after at least a pro forma search. In other words, we should not procedurally set up some bot that deletes every "citation needed" sentence in the encyclopedia. However, I do also agree that those restoring the material, given that it had been challenged, even if wrongly, should have made some effort to source it. It should be clear from this discussion that sourcing shouldn't be a burden that two "sides" try to shove off on one another, but a goal that either side should be eager to land first. Wnt (talk) 05:30, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Blanking without any attempt at WP:PRESERVE generally

This has become a personal bugbear of mine lately.. And sorry to hook onto your particular case here, Betty. WP:V states that "if ... you think the material is verifiable, it is better to try to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it." and WP:PRESERVE also states that one should look for a source first. While this case might be a bit more nuanced (and certainly experts saying that it's common knowledge then not citing is a bit strange), a lot of people going around doing "d uncited per tag" don't seem able to put the 3 seconds into googling for an actual source. Murdoch University, for example, recently lost a section on the university's main campus, despite a source for that information being the very first google result. Discussion on this point in the past seemed to indicate that WP:PRESERVE and the relevant section of WP:V can be viewed as completely optional and that it was, in fact, my responsibility to find a source on pages that have had such treatment. So I'm meant to wikistalk other editors to do the WP:PRESERVE work they were too lazy to do themselves? This does not advance the cause of the project. ˜danjel  16:23, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• I don't mind, it's turning into something of a philosophical debate of sorts on Misplaced Pages. It helps to inform the debate to see the other side of the coin. Betty Logan (talk) 16:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Ideally it should make very little difference - after the material is posted to the talk page and the issue is noted, people will go over it and decide what is verifiable and what isn't, and either cut or restore to the same version. The problem comes when no one looks at the talk page or thinks twice about the article. The number of "citation needed" tags that hang around for months, even years, reminds us of how often that can happen - and that is bad, but the alternative would be not to send the reader on to any of those other useful articles nor to give them search terms to follow up on. Misplaced Pages's strategy from the beginning has been to trust the editor, even though, yes, sometimes there is a humiliating hoax. Wnt (talk) 17:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
• I personally prefer adding CN tags. Silverseren 20:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
• The paramount thing is accuracy. Information should be verifiable and accurate. We're evolving from a 2003-style WP in which random passersby added tidbits that they believed to be true, which were "group-sourced" in or out based on consensus, to a more formal encyclopedia based on footnotes, footnotes, footnotes. This is all for the good. The fact that what we expect of users in 2013 is not the same level of footnoting that flew in 2005 or 2008 or whatever does not mean that there is a green light for the mass removal of everything not footnoted. Again, it's accuracy that matters. If it is wrong, blow it away. If it might be wrong, blow it away or flag it and take the matter to the talk page. If it is right, let it stand and flag it for sources if necessary. Carrite (talk) 22:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Should it be noted that, in the case above that started all this, the user in question who removed the material also went and added it to the talk page, so references could be researched for it. It's not like they just removed the information wholesale, they did the right thing and took it directly to the talk page to be worked on. I really like that method of doing things too. Silverseren 01:42, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• A removal of unsourced content is a challenge. So is tagging. Putting it back (or removing the tag) must be met with the burden of evidence....source it. While just being on Misplaced Pages without an inline citation is not against our policies or guidelines, verifiability is not an option. If it cannot be verified it goes. If it can be verified and is not "unquestionable' then the challenge should be met with sourcing even if it is not actually placed on the article itself. That is why we discuss these issues. It may not be as apparent to others that it is "unquestionable". If the consensus is that the information is easily verified and unquestionable, it need not always have an inline citation. Its a collaboration. Like Silver seren says....they were discussing the issue by placing the content on the talkpage for further investigation..--Amadscientist (talk) 05:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Caste yet again - time for WP:BLP policy to be clarified or amended?

Jimbo, I have started a new discussion of the interminable caste issue over at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Is labelling individuals by caste a violation of privacy, per WP:BLP, and if so should we make this explicit?, and I'd very much appreciate your input there. It seems to me that this issue goes to the very core of WP:BLP policy, and the duty that Misplaced Pages has to protect the privacy of individuals, as well as raising serious concerns over WP:NPOV, and over exactly what the purpose of Misplaced Pages is, and that it may be time to act incisively over an issue that had dragged on for far too long. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)