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Japanese islands and hyphenation

Dear Experts, Japanophiles,

According to the following advice of one of our Administrators,

• The best place to discuss this is probably Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Japan, which is well-watched by Misplaced Pages's Japanophiles (including myself). How about starting a new thread there?

I would like to open a discussion on the hyphenation used in transcription of Japanese words. Currently, we have a bit of a mess resulting from the lack of clear rules in Misplaced Pages, and caused by the use of the wrong sources. Our problem began with the transcribed names of the Japanese islands: Inujima or Inu-shima and Inu Island in English. As you know hundreds of islands are transcribed properly (eg. Awaji Island) and in accordance with broadly accepted international standards WITH HYPHEN because -shima is treated in English as a NOUN-SUFFIX. Exactly as in the case of -san = mountain; -shi = city; -jinja = shrine; -kō = lake etc. However, some editors try to write these two words together, in the form of Inushima, Awajishima. I will be very grateful for your opinions, --Seibun (talk) 11:18, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

It all really depends on how the name is translated into English. WP:MOS-JA already says in the case of "-jinja", you should translate it as "Shrine". If that isn't clear, go with the way the locality names it (rather than some ancient dictionary or atlas) which in this case is "Inujima". I'm honestly not aware of any case where "-jima" or "-shima" is used other than the many cases I'm finding where you instigated a move.—Ryulong (琉竜) 13:33, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Additionally, you were told in July by Nihonjoe that the English Misplaced Pages's Japanese manual of style specifically suggests not to use hyphens in any translated names, so there's no reason you should be confused about this now other than it being your personal preference in the way romanization should be dealt with in an academic manner.—Ryulong (琉竜) 13:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't find the part in WP:MOS-JA that says we shouldn't use hyphens in translated names. Does anyone know which part (or parts) of the guideline mentions this? It would be a good idea for us all to get on the same page about what the guideline actually says before we start talking about changing it. (Also, for reference, I'm the administrator that Seibun is referring to at the start of this thread.) — Mr. Stradivarius 14:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe the entry

Suffixes such as "City", "Town", "Village", and "Island" are generally superfluous in English and should be avoided.

might be the one that covers things here. Also, in the case of "Inujima", there are clear uses by the current government that "Inujima" is the preferred form, which is covered by the "Determining common usage" section.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:10, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

The ALA-LC Romanization Tables: Japanese digs into the hyphen issue and gives numerous modified Hepburn guidelines/examples. The Library of Congress prefers no hyphen before a generic geographic feature (middle of p. 84). Prburley (talk) 19:22, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

My answer soon --Seibun (talk) 09:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

NPOV and duplicate article?

Can someone look over Kirishitan please. Seems to be duplicate and WP:FORK? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:15, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

The tags have been removed (fine), but no input on the subject. I still think this is OR/FORK from History of Roman Catholicism in Japan, there were no non-RC Japanese Christians at this period. Have listed on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Catholicism as well, though a bit unlikely anyone there who knows anything about Japan isn't on this project first. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Article assessment help

Does this WikiProject (or Misplaced Pages in general) have any community-based objective review system?

I have been working on translating the article waka (poetry) from the Japanese, but I have learned over the last few months that Japanese Wiki's standards are quite different from ours, and citations in the original are minimal-to-nonexistent. I can deal with that by just checking each statement against English sources (and I will, someday :P ). But as for other areas of improvement, I am looking for advice.

I noticed that if I have a problem with something in an article, or another editor's edits, it's very easy to get community input via RFC -- is there any corresponding request for articles that just need general improvement? I have seen other articles get nominated for GA and FA and get shot down almost immediately, but with pretty good advice as to how to improve them, but given that I know this is a waste of other editors' time it seems inappropriate...

elvenscout742 (talk) 06:57, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like you're looking for Misplaced Pages:Peer review. I hear that a lot of featured article writers take an article to GA, then use a peer review as a stepping stone to FA status. You can use peer review at any stage of development, though, as long as the article in question is relatively fleshed out. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

No don't send it for peer review until the obvious problems are all fixed, otherwise you will just annoy people. About half or more of the article sent to peer review only get a cursory glance. I sent Kaneto Shindo there but got nothing except an image request. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Infobox East Asian name

{{Infobox East Asian name}} has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.245.16 (talk) 04:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Discussion got moved to here: Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 December 10#Template:Infobox East Asian name. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:12, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

What is this organization "Myowa-kai"

I was exploring the feasibility of an article on Buddhism and violence when I read about this Japanese "pan-Buddhist organization known as the Myowa-kai" which in 1937 issued a statement in support of the Japanese war effort, which said "we ... now have no choice to to exercise the benevolent forcefulness of 'killing one in order that many may live.' " I tried to do a web search for this organization, but got very little information, except that apparently two Sōtō Zen leaders, Hayashiya Tomojirō and Shimakage Chikai, were associated with this statement. Maybe Myowa-kai is an obscure nickname or abbreviation for some well-known organization like Risshō Kōsei Kai (what Google threw out) or just a front organization for the government? Could somebody who knows the Japanese language or the history of the period clarify? Shrigley (talk) 23:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea, and this probably has nothing to do with it, but the far-right religious group "kenshoukai" (顕正会) was previously known as "myoushinkou" (妙信講). This started in the 1940s as a pro-war Buddhist group. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I found one reference to it. The (tiny) reference says that

"Yūjirō Hayashiya (林屋友次郎) Buddhist Views on War (『佛教の戦争観』) 1937 (Ｓ12年)
"The Shanghai Buddhist Daily Report (上海仏教日報) claims that the Japanese government is coopting Buddhism for their own practical benefit. In response, the "Light and Peace Society" (明和会, Myōwa-kai), a Buddhist partisan group cited the proverb "It is justifiable to kill one (harmful) person to save the lives of many" (一殺多生, Issatsu-Tashō or Issetsu-Tashō).(p.4)"
elvenscout742 (talk) 05:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

A search for "Myōwa-kai Sino-Japanese War" in Japanese brought up a good few results, which I am going to try sifting through in a bit. The first hit was which again (on p.23) makes a brief reference to the group, saying that "On 12 July, 1937, the extremist(?) religious group Myōwa-kai published a statement expressing their support for the Sino-Japanese War." The following sentence again mentions Mr. Hayashiya's book which was published the same year. I am sorry to not be of much use just now. I am curious though what your interest in the group is; Yujiro Hayashiya seems to be far more "notable", and his views on Buddhism and war are ... interesting, to say the least ... elvenscout742 (talk) 06:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Hilariously badly-written article History of sushi

The article History of sushi is so badly written that it is laugh-out-loud funny. Here is the lead:

Sushi is a Japanese dish considered a delicacy. It started out as a fast food in Japan because of its simplicity. A round sandwich of sorts, it is most often made with rice, sashimi, and circled with nori. The ingredients have caused controversy due to the fact that they are often raw.

It's almost a perfect parody of wikipedia inanities and ought to be preserved somehow. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:25, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

The lead was added in March 2011 (this edit) by an SPA that only edited this article. What's odd is that no one ever tried to change it. But since the article was subject to edit wars at that time (some editors were trying to argue that sushi is a Chinese invention), I would not be surprised that some odd changes were overlooked. Michitaro (talk) 04:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Assassination of Tomomitsu Taminato

This Second Sino-Japanese War related article needs attention from editors familiar with the topic: it needs to be revamped with reference to better and neutral sources. I have raised my concerns on the article talk page. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:25, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I have nominated the page for deletion because it seems to be covered only in Japanese far-right literature, and so reliable sources are unlikely to be found. The article itself can only ever serve as a propaganda piece. elvenscout742 (talk) 03:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Manual of style for Japan-related articles suggested alteration - lose the macrons on people's names

I'd like to suggest an alteration to the manual of style for Japan-related articles. My suggestion is that the manual of style be altered to say that the modern-day (post-Meiji) names of Japanese individuals should be written without macrons. I have NO IDEA where the idea of putting macrons on Japanese people's names has come from, but I am not aware of a single person who uses macrons on personal names in romanized form in Japan. I mean I do not think there is even a single human being who uses these things. It's not a debate or an issue so much as "Misplaced Pages versus everyone else". Can we please be a bit more realistic about the best way to write names, and lose the macrons, unless there is some evidence the person actually does use them? And if anyone here can find even one person who uses macrons, does anyone have a good recipe for cooking hats, because I'll be eating mine. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying that what you want is for peoples' names that have within them: 〜おう〜／〜ほう〜／〜ろう〜／〜のう〜／〜しょう〜／…, for 5 examples in hiragana (for eg. 啓次郎　将積), to be written in romanized characters as: ...ou.../...hou.../...rou.../...nou.../...shou.../ etc., instead of written as: ...ō.../...hō.../...rō.../...nō.../...shō.../ etc.? Are you saying from personal knowledge of Japanese people with their own names, or what?

Please contextualise your complaint(?) French, German, Chinese and many many more languages can't be written in romanized characters without various accents, umlaughts, macrons and many more. The keyboard is very easy to use for these, correctly operated. Of course all the millions of people using computer keyboards everyday in these many languages are typing these 'special' characters on the keyboards everyday, as the basic sounds of each of the languages. —— --macropneuma 06:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

No. Regarding modern-day people's names only, the macron on the name should be removed completely, not replaced with a "u". Thus Yasujirō Ozu -> Yasujiro Ozu, and so on, and certainly not Yasujirou, as a default way of naming people. Regarding your second paragraph, you are wrong. Japanese keyboards don't contain any facility to type macrons, and the pre-Unicode common forms of computer-encoding for Japanese don't contain macroned letters. JoshuSasori (talk) 07:02, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Japanese keyboards? Seems angry? ——--macropneuma 07:27, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

How are you writing macrons here? ——--macropneuma 07:58, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Beneath your edit window you should be able to select from a variety of symbols not normally available on keyboards (including characters with diacritics). Others, like me, are set up with a compose key that allows you to combine two characters into one, so I type <COMPOSE>, "-", "o", and it outputs "ō".

I can confirm what Joshu says—macrons are rarely used by the Japanese. They're pretty much limited to foreign textbooks of Japanese. Dropping any indication of vowel length is something I find hard to stomach, but you'll find few supporters (unfortunately) of the "ou" style of transliteration outside of Japan. CüRlyTüRkey_Contribs 08:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Either copy and paste or use the Misplaced Pages editing box thing labelled "Special characters". JoshuSasori (talk) 08:30, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

On the serious subject, it is a choice between ou and ō, because that destroys the language when the vowel length is obscured. Many Japanese friends have long vowel sounds in their names. These Japanese friends of mine write either with: macrons or ou style. Okay rarely, but not okay never. I already knew that rarity, of course. Who is silly enough to close off the options of anything just because it is rare rather than pop. On the other hand JoshuSasori has an point, exaggerated, about macron's wrong use in some titles here in WP. On the not serious subject of keyboards' writing of macrons, you're both doing the too hard way, which before i knew better i did too, and this seems the real frustration causing anger to show out: On Mac globally: Option-A then the vowel couldn't be easier, if you know how to operate your Mac computer and set it up, properly, for both Japanese language characters and for English (romanized characters) transliterations; that means finding an extended English keyboard setting, eg. US Extended. I suspect you're both on windows, so if i find the easier windows way, then i'll let you know together with a hat recipe. ——--macropneuma 08:49, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I'm on Linux. If the macron is the only diacritic you're going to use, then your solution is fine. If you're going to use other diacritics, though (like if you're going to type French as well), then having a compose key gives you more options. The only place I personally use macrons is when editing Misplaced Pages (in real life I either use actual Japanese, or the "ou" style), so having to type one more key on rare occasions isn't a problem for me. CüRlyTüRkey_Contribs 09:02, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed! to many more options using the compose key, you have. Ahaaa! on Linux! Indeed macrons are more for published written form (more formal and proper), like this WP encyclopaedia is supposed to be. However my Japanese friends write their transliterated names with macrons in handwriting, and some write ou, but it is in fact easier, quicker, handwriting to just make the stroke above than another letter u. ——--macropneuma 09:08, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) JoshuSasori (talk) 09:14, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Many Japanese friends have long vowel sounds in their names. These Japanese friends of mine write either with: macrons or ou style. - hmm. JoshuSasori (talk) 09:12, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Every Japanese I know either writes using the "ou" style or just plain "o" (barf). I honestly don't know a single one who uses a macron. This is within Japan. Abroad, it quite likely could be that they've gotten in the habit of using macrons for the benefit of foreigners who expect them. CüRlyTüRkey_Contribs 09:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

You're calling me a liar and writing direct hate speech at me now JoshuSasori. Don't be so silly. For one of several examples my friend writes: Keijirō (on his name card in front of me now). I already gave this as one kanji example, above. –And try walking in the shoes of the men who have the name 男坂さん (おさかさん, osaka san, Mr. Osaka), not, i suppose, the impossible: 大阪さん (おおさかさん, oosaka/ousaka/ōsaka san, Mr. Ōsaka) –i suppose impossible for a real name. Try walking in their shoes in business trips abroad and getting introduced all the time as Mr Osaka with the pronunciation of the city name, if pronounced correctly, as seems uncommon, by non–Japanese. ——--macropneuma 09:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Indeed! Cūrly Tūrkēy <smile> (simultaneously serious and a humouring). ——--macropneuma 09:37, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The better, compassionate, more factual and less conjectural, explanation, for the lack of 'em.

(Personal attack removed) JoshuSasori (talk) 10:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I am an opponent of use of macron for the name generally accepted in English. However I prefer the name JoshūSasori rather than JoshuSasori. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Trying to calm things down, let's try to clarify the issues. Basically, it is the conflict between being an accurate encyclopedia and honoring common usage. Both are part of the rules at Misplaced Pages and can conflict. I personally want to err on the side of the former, given that personal usage can often be based on ignorance or aberrant systems (so many people in Japan would render it Itoh, not Ito or Itō). Do we want an encyclopedia that honors every aberrant romanization if we find an example of it somewhere? I personally think that would be confusing and would make a manual of style meaningless. JoshuSasori's statement that Japanese rarely use macrons may be largely true for Japanese personal names, but not in the culture as a whole. Go to any train station and one can see place names written as a rule with macrons. Is JoshuSasori proposing not using macrons for personal names because it is common usage but using them for place names, where it is common usage? I just find the resulting confusion as undermining the consistency and quality of the encyclopedia. Let's just stick to romanization rules, with the occasional exception where the name is clearly well-known abroad without the macron. Michitaro (talk) 13:18, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there is a conflict between being an accurate encyclopedia and writing all personal names without macrons. I think that would be the most accurate way to write names. Is JoshuSasori proposing not using macrons for personal names because it is common usage but using them for place names, where it is common usage? I just find the resulting confusion as undermining the consistency and quality of the encyclopedia. - yes, I'm proposing not using a macron on people's names unless there is evidence for it, because it's very clearly a minority (Personal attack removed) who do this. As it is every article ends up with macrons by default, which then have to be removed when, inevitably, it is discovered that the person in question doesn't use them. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

While I am generally opposed to using macrons in English language contexts, I personally don't think there is actually any need to reword the guidelines for how we render Japanese names. The guidelines, currently set out at WP:JATITLE, do already suggest that the form commonly used by the person in question or widely used in published English texts should take priority, and the macronned form should really only be used as a last resort. And in answer to the often-raised argument that writing Japanese names without the correct diacritics constitutes dumbing-down, all articles on Japanese-related subjects should also have the "technically correct" Hepburn Romanized form in the "Nihongo" template in the introductory line, as seen in articles such as Junichiro Koizumi and Shintaro Ishihara, so it is always possible to determine the correct Romanized form as well as the more commonly used form. --DAJF (talk) 15:22, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

• The title is supposed to be the common name of the subject. The most common form of a name will rarely if ever have a macron in it. The marconned vowels are not even Latin-1 characters, so they were a hassle to put in back in the days before Unicode, i.e. only a few years ago. Kauffner (talk) 17:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

By the way (from above) for the record of my friend Keijirō's example i used above:

He uses the ...ō (macron) on the name card he gave me and i just checked in facebook, he uses ...ou. So Curly Turkey when you say "...it quite likely could be that they've gotten in the habit of using macrons for the benefit of foreigners who expect them." i'm with you on that as a likely explanation. Is it a martyr's crown of thorns hat? This section was always a non-starter IMHO so i sought to clarify for everyone... . Done! ——--macropneuma 02:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Why is this discussion taking place here instead of WT:MOS-JA? Anyway, it was decided that unless there is no known common form used by the subject of the article (that is how the subject or his/her representatives choose to parse the subject's name in roman letters), then we have to default to what shows up in reliable sources. If those don't exist, then we stick with the Hepburn romanization, including macrons. The easiest way to deal with this is to see if modern figures have a preferred way to write their names in English.—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:38, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

(ec) How can readers who don't understand ja know the difference between 大野 and 小野 without macron? See Ono. If editors think macrons are not needed on personal names, maybe we should adopt other romanization. Or should we just remove macrons from people's names? But that would create a difference between the family name 大野 and place names with 大野. Oda Mari (talk) 06:52, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

How can readers who don't understand ja know the difference between 大野 and 小野 without macron? - they can't. It gets worse: there are lots of examples of Japanese people with identical names even in kanji. Horror story: I used to know one man (a researcher in engineering) who shared an identical kanji name with two other people who did the same job, and he got mail addressed to him intended for them. He used to forward it to them but then worried that they would not forward mail for him back to him. So what? Misplaced Pages is not meant for solving every single problem of every person in the world. JoshuSasori (talk) 07:39, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Wait—you can't see a difference between two names that are spelt the same and two names that are spelt and pronounced differently?

What's the policy on names that are spelt in multiple ways? Check out Natsume Souseki. That's an awful lot of reliable sources backing up that spelling of the name, including a source that shows a minor planet 4039 Souseki was named after him with that spelling. I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts you'll never get his article renamed. CüRlyTüRkey_Contribs 08:19, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

A bit confusing, this is under what I said, but it's not responding to anything I've said, I don't think. These talk pages are not a great system for discussion, but maybe you could clarify who the above is written for. JoshuSasori (talk) 10:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The first paragraph was addressed to JoshuSasori, the second was just rambling. CüRlyTüRkey_Contribs 10:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The fact that there are so many aberrant romanizations out there, even for the same name, is one reason that I have not liked the policy about respecting common usage. In too many cases, it is just difficult to determine what is "common." So you count Google search results? Even if that doesn't include most paper sources? How do you know what the individual prefers, especially if they are dead or you can't contact them to confirm? Any self-respecting published encyclopedia just picks one romanization form and goes with it throughout the encyclopedia. If you make an exception, it should only be when there is overwhelming evidence. Michitaro (talk) 15:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

If they're dead then it's not up to us to figure out their personal preference. If they're alive, they're bound to have official websites. If they don't, then we have to stick with Misplaced Pages's internal policy. Them's the breaks.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Also regarding the 大野/小野 issue, that's why we use {{nihongo}} to show that the former is Ōno and the latter is Ono (also I don't think I've ever seen the former written as "Ono" as they usually prefer to go with "Ohno").—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:54, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

• A modified version of Template:Google RS (modified by adding reliable English-language sources about Japan) may be useful for researching usage. How about coming up with a list of reliable English-language sources about Japan, then a modified version of the template that includes these sources can be created. LittleBen (talk) 01:01, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

<outdent>How JoshuSasori thinks Japanese people spell their names is irrelevant. 99% of time Japanese people spell their names in kanji, hiragana or katakana. Of course we do not follow this convention on English Misplaced Pages. The MOS as it exists now is fine -- when a person prefers to spell their name without a macron, we spell it without a macron. Otherwise, we use the macron. elvenscout742 (talk) 03:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Tofu skin

Tofu skin is up for renaming. -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 00:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Nitta clan

There's a question re: the Nitta clan at WP Reference Desk: Humanities page. I tried working on the article but didn't get anywhere. Can someone untangle this Yoshishige/Yoritomo/Ishibashiyama question at the Reference desk page? Thanks! Prburley (talk) 17:55, 19 December 2012 (UTC)