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User:Neutralhomer/TopMenu User talk:Neutralhomer/TalkHeader

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User talk:Chaswmsday#Stop Striking

Re:98.204.145.138

Seeing that the vandalism was centralized on the one article, I protected that. If there's only one article that's being affected, it's better to protect the one article, because a range block could have collateral damage (prevent others from legitimately editing). In any case, there will now not be a bunch of IP ranges vandalizing that article for a bit. Best, Spencer 04:20, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:RANGE gives a little more info about range-blocking. (It says what I was trying to say above a little more clearly). Spencer 04:23, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The user had previously edited under the IP 98.204.146.142 and on the sign-in account Zimmermanh1997. You can tell from the edits that they are the same person. The two IPs trace back to the same ISP and the same location via InfoSniper.net (one of our GeoLocation links). My fear is the user will pop up on a different IP and move onto another article. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:46, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Range blocks are really a last resort, and especially if its only 2 IPs (not lots more, as in other cases), I'd say protect the page now and wait and see if that's sufficient. It probably will be, but if you notice a rampage from all around the range on a large number of articles, report it to AIV. Spencer 20:35, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

File:WICL-FM 2012.png

In response to your request on my talk page, I deleted the file history, and tried to restore just the latest version. I had never done this before with an image file, and naively assumed it worked the same way as with a page, but it didn't. The result is that I have restored only the image description page, not the image itself. As an admin, I can look at the deleted image, but I can see no way of restoring it for the public to see. Sorry about this cockup. Perhaps the easiest thing is for you to just upload it again. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:28, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

No worries, it happens. :) It's an easy reupload, but thanks taking out the file history. I will reupload the file posthaste. Take Care...Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:31, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I had reuploaded it when you deleted it to make way for the upload. :) LOL! Oh well, no worries, that's what happens at 4 in the morning. :D - Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:36, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

(Total egg-on face) I promise I won't touch it again. Honest. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Hey, no worries! :) I am getting a good chuckle out of it myself. :) Just reuploaded it, so all is right with the world. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Since you don't want a template

I have reported your reversions to WP:AN3. Note that undo-button reversions are different from attempts to reach out to other editors by making bridging edits. 12.153.112.21 (talk) 22:36, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Connection?

I saw some odd stuff on my watchlist: and

Are these guys somehow connected? Am I missing something?

Thanks, --A. B. 03:44, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I think there is a good chance they are. I would ask a checkuser to be sure. Coming from you, an admin, would carry more weight. I have an active list of Checkusers here for easy searching (to see if they are online). - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the eyes, both. I am not connected with IAmCoolForever2023, as you can see by my edit history before my interest in this article overlapped with IAmCoolForever2023. That user's unsophisticated move has been properly reverted, and I have not yet reviewed the user's edits to the U-verse guide in detail but mine have always been sourced and these are not. I am not sure that checkuser works well for IPs and would reveal nothing new about my doppelganger, but I certainly invite review. 12.153.112.21 (talk) 14:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Userfication of channel lists

Hi. I saw that you userfied several channel list articles. Please see WP:Userfication#Cut and paste userfication and WP:Copying within Misplaced Pages#Userfication. I can help provide the missing attribution if you need assistance. Flatscan (talk) 04:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I forgot that the bulk of the lists is factual, non-creative information (WP:Copying within Misplaced Pages#Where attribution is not needed). I'm going to wait a few days for the dispute to cool down. Flatscan (talk) 04:32, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

The one, User:Neutralhomer/List of AT&T U-verse Channels‎, was from a page that was deleted earlier today per AfD. The rest are probably going to go up for AfD after that page's deletion. If you can help with the missing attribution on the others, that would be great, I just did a copy/paste instead of a standard move since they are still active pages. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually the page was not deleted, it was moved to User:IP 12.153.112.21/List of AT&T U-verse channels by User:The Bushranger per your request to move it to user space. It was then moved to User:List of AT&T U-verse channels by User:IAmCoolForever2023. Now it was requested that it be speedy deleted by you. I suggest you take back your speedy deletion request and move it to your user space so there is attribution. Powergate92Talk 06:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I decided to remove the speedy deletion tag from User:List of AT&T U-verse channels as your "copy/paste" of that same article in your user space does not attribute and therefore may violate the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License. So it would be better to moved that version of the article to your user space in replacement of the one that's already there instead of deleting it, as that version has the revision history and therefore attributes. Powergate92Talk 08:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Based on the logic of the channel-list deleters, your copypaste of U-verse is ripe for WP:MFD, and I would agree, because the history of the original article should be preserved. As I've hinted, I would have no problem with you moving User:IP 12.153.112.21/List of AT&T U-verse channels to User:Neutralhomer/List of AT&T U-verse channels, as this makes no difference as to our content dispute. (Note your current copypaste is a different page with "Channels" not "channels"; you can request housekeeping deletion of that.) However, we do need to discuss that dispute eventually on grounds other than vandalism, as consensus appears to turn against you on the vandalism charge. Thank you. 12.153.112.21 (talk) 14:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

@Powergate: I asked for it to be moved to my userspace, not his. BIG difference. It was already approved by two admins, so I don't need your permission.

@12.153.112.21: You are nothing but a common vandal, so you can remove yourself from my talk page. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 00:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Being "approved by two admins" doesn't mean anything when it violates CC-BY-SA 3.0 License therefore making it a copyright violation. As well it violates WP:Copyrights#Re-use of text. Powergate92Talk 02:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

One, what? The page wasn't under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License to begin with. Two, admins override you. You can remove yourself from my talk page as well. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Everything on Misplaced Pages is released under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License. See the bottom of the page where it says "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details." Also see Misplaced Pages's copyright policy. Powergate92Talk 04:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Plans

Re the potential MfD, can you provide a description of what your plan is to overhaul the content and organization and sourcing of the article and whatever else you have in mind so that it would not be the same article that failed NOT:DIR and was deleted? -- The Red Pen of Doom 04:39, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I have been thinking about that. As a member of WikiProject Radio Stations, we sometimes have to remove schedules (per WP:NOT#DIR) off radio station pages (an example of this would be WUSN#Airstaff) and put them in writing (ie: John Doe is heard mornings, Jane Doe takes Middays, etc.). So, that is my idea for the pages, I am just not sure exactly how to do it. I haven't had the chance to look at the pages this evening. Was hanging out with my Mom looking through an old box of photos, so that took up some time and on-wiki time has been spent discussing things here on talk. I haven't even gotten the chance to look at my watchlist yet. Let me take a look and I will try and give you a better idea of what my plans are. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:02, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

This is an idea off the top of my head. Take the channels, divided into categories for easy reading (ie: entertainment, sports, movies, etc.) and have a 3 or 4 column list of what networks AT&T U-verse or DirecTV carry. There wouldn't be full detail and the information could be easily sourced via numerous websites. This could then be intergrated into the main article, in a section titled "Programming" or something similar. Let me see what I can put together on the fly in my sandbox. Give me about 20 minutes. It won't be perfect, but it will give you an idea. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

You should post that at the MfD TheRedPenOfDoom is talking about: WP:Miscellany for deletion/User:IP 12.153.112.21/List of AT&T U-verse channels. Powergate92Talk 05:22, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict): This would be my idea. Of course, there would be more information and of course sources, but you get the general idea. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:24, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

@Powergate: I thought I said to remove yourself from my talk page. I could be wrong, it has been known to happen. You aren't helping things and I would rather discuss this with admins and other editors who don't have a interest in seeing these pages go. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:24, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

And I did remove your talk page from my watchlist, but I had to come back to see if you replied to my above comment. Also I never said that I want the these pages to go. I've actually been watching the discussion at WP:Articles for deletion/List of AT&T U-verse channels since User:Masem brought it up at WT:WikiProject Television a week ago, but didn't comment or vote as there was nothing to be said. In fact I actually looked into the rules of Wikisource and Wikibooks to see if it could be moved to either of those. However it seems Wikisource does not allow list and Wikibooks is only for textbooks. Powergate92Talk 05:58, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

By the way, if you read Misplaced Pages's copyright policy that I linked above you'll see that all you to do for attribution is add a hyperlink or URL to the page your "copy/paste" was from (can't do that one since the page was deleted), add a hyperlink or URL for to an alternative (User:The "good guy"/List of AT&T U-verse channels, actually I think you could just link to revision history of that page), or just "a list of all authors." It's not that hard to do. Powergate92Talk 06:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I would be fine if there could be a reestablishing of the List of AT&T U-verse channels page for the sole reason of moving it to my userspace (per permission). The others (FiOS, DirecTV, etc.) are in response to the annoucement that those pages could be deleted per the U-verse AfD. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:59, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

that page was restored and moved to User:The_"good_guy"/List_of_AT&T_U-verse_channels and is under MfD at User:IP 12.153.112.21/List of AT&T U-verse channels - a whole lot of poorly executed name moves etc. -- The Red Pen of Doom 14:07, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Once you convert it to prose, its not really a List of X stations, what do you propose to call it? Stations carried by X? -- The Red Pen of Doom 13:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I was going to put it in the main article, but it doesn't look like that will happen. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:09, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Thread on WP:AN about your actions

Hi. I notice that this thread has turned into a discussion of your actions. I realise that you have already responded to the thread, but thought that you might be unaware of this change in direction and so I wanted to give you an opportunity to defend yourself. Cheers, Bovlb (talk) 23:54, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Indefinite block for severe off-wiki harassment

I have blocked your account indefinitely for severe off-wiki harassment. You called the employer of an IP user to report them. Such actions are very heavily frowned upon, and are not appropriate at all in the circumstances. Considering that you are an experienced editor, and that you have had blocks for harassment before (though not recently), you should have been well aware of what is and what isn't acceptable here, and this went far beyond a borderline case.

Indefinite is not meant to be infinite here, just as long as needed to convince me or any other uninvolved admin that you are aware of what is and isn't acceptable here, and that repeat offenses are unlikely. Fram (talk) 11:48, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Neutralhomer (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Look, I know I went too far. To put it bluntly, I fucked up. I could give you an excuse, but it wouldn't matter. I did screw up. Was my intention to get him fired? Never! In this economy, I would have felt like crap if he had. My intention, when calling his place of employment, was to get his boss to maybe suspend his internet privileges. Since he is clearly editing while on company time. This, obviously, didn't happen (I don't think they were really concerned anyway), so I call it a "no harm, no foul". But I did screw up. I am aware I went too far. Will I repeat this behavior? Not likely, as I am removing myself from any and all television station and network articles, including WP:TVS (the Television Station WikiProject). I am going to focus my attention on other areas of media (radio, newspapers, etc.), articles that are very uncontroversial. I also plan on focusing my attention in some Virginia history articles and towns/cities in Virginia. Unless the anon user comes into those areas (which I doubt highly), I don't foresee any future interaction with the anon.
Again, I am sorry for my behavior. I went too far and I know I went too far. Even after I made the call I thought "you probably crossed a line with this one". But I will take measures, if unblocked, to insure our paths will not cross (also, I am tired of the stress of dealing with television station and network pages). If you or another admin choose not to unblock me, it's been a good run. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 12:09, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Decline reason:

You have stated that it is "not likely" to happen again - not good enough, I'm afraid. We need assurances you will never repeat this behaviour. Until we get that, you should remain blocked indefinitely. GiantSnowman 13:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Generally speaking I think it is permissible to contact the Internet Service Provider of a repeat vandal or serious problem user. That contact however, needs to be done carefully, diligently, calmly, and in as much as we can see into the human heart, without malice. Neutralhomer was the wrong person, doing the wrong thing, at the wrong time, the wrong way. We are not in the revenge business. The issue is not a particular user v. user interaction, but an editor's flawed sense of judgement. This kind of behavior is a breach of trust. And restoring trust doesn't only require contrition, but time and a growth in judgement. At this time, I oppose an unblock.--Tznkai (talk) 12:13, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Question before considering unblock request - I need clarification first on your comment above that "My intention...was to get his boss to maybe suspend his internet privileges" - yet on the AN thread you made plenty of comments about him losing his job, including the (awful) comment of "if he is still employed, then it didn't have the desired effect". Which was it? GiantSnowman 12:14, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

@Tznkai: You know what, you're right. I wasn't the right person to do that, I should have asked an admin to do so. But, I wasn't looking for revenge. I was looking for the vandalism to stop. I didn't want the person fired, just his internet access suspended. After issuing AIV report after AIV report, asking two admins for help (they told the user to stop editing and establish consensus) and trying (and failing miserably) at talking with the user, I thought I had no other choice. But you are right, it was the wrong choice. Like I said above...I fucked up.

@Snowman: I was meaning if he was still employed (meaning still able to access the internet from that IP) it didn't have the intended effect. As I said above, I was not looking to get the user fired, just his internet access suspended. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 12:19, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

But losing internet privileges, and losing your job, are not the same. GiantSnowman 12:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

@Snowman: Very correct, I was trying to get his internet access revoked, not his employment revoked. It's no harm, no foul (well, for him anyway) because the person I spoke to obviously didn't take it seriously. I didn't want him fired (and he wasn't), just the vandalism to stop. I believe I even said "I think you should take his internet access away, so he can get back to work". I am not a revenge sort of person, just wanted the problem (ie: the vandalism) to go away. Folks shouldn't be editing Misplaced Pages from work anyway. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 12:33, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Note to the admin/s considering unblock: I had to intervene recently with the oversight tool, following onwiki posting of IP sleuthing by this user. See (). I don't think that my gentle warning had the desired effect at all. --Dweller (talk) 12:34, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Ok, and I respect you and Fram, but I'm inclined to unblock. His response seems to show that he understands that what he did is unacceptable, and I'm certainly not of the opinion that he'll do it again if we unblock. And it's easy enough to block him again if needed. Dougweller (talk) 12:37, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
    • I don't think that an unblock would be justified - furthermore, I've just posted a proposal for community ban to AN. One mistake may be forgivable, but it isn't Neutralhomer's first offence. Max Semenik (talk) 13:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Dweller, you shouldn't be oversighting information obtained via WHOIS or geolocate for an IP. It's public information and the template is on the bottom of every IP page. Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:38, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
    • @Doug: I know I will have plenty of admin eyeballs watching me. It won't happen again. As I have said, if unblocked, steps will be taken by myself to assure that.
    • @Dweller: I do agree with Elen, if we are not allow to post on-wiki where an IP is registered or what town/city, then why do we have two GeoLocation links at the bottom of each and every IP user talk page? I have seen the names and locations of IP users posted on high viewership boards like AN, ANI and others. Why was I oversighted, when others are not? Why have the links if we aren't allow to post the findings? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 12:42, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I believe my use of the tool was entirely justified under point 1 of the policy, to oversight the words "I backtracked your edits to , which is based in ". The OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument is nonsense. I have to treat each notification of a potential privacy breach on its own merits. --Dweller (talk) 12:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Having seen the actual oversighted edit, I agree with Dweller. It contained more material than an RIRs/Geo lookup would provide. Whether this info was true or just came out of NH's assumptions, it was still a clear attempt at outing. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:18, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I do as well. Drmies (talk) 17:18, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Hang on a minute - Neutralhomer contacted someone's employer to pressurise them to try to win a content dispute, and he hasn't actually stated that he won't do the same sort of thing again, only that it is 'not likely'. An unblock is clearly not on the cards under such circumstances, surely? AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:08, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

@Andy: No, I didn't call them to "win" anything, only to stop vandalism. Also, I say "not likely", it's a force of habit. What I mean by "not likely" is "it won't happen again". - Neutralhomer • Talk • 13:15, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Neutralhomer (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

As I just said above (why don't people give me time to respond?) I say "not likely", it is a force of habit. I talk in kind of a "clinical" way after years of being treated by doctors. As I said above, "not likely" is the exact same as "it won't happen again". - Neutralhomer • Talk • 13:18, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Sorry, that's not good enough. Given your long history of blocks for incivility and other problematic behavior, your prior promises to change which have resulted in no changes, and the absolutely beyond-the-pale abhorrant nature of the harassment involved in this most recent block, I would not be comfortable letting you participate in Misplaced Pages any further. Harrassing people whom you disagree with by calling their employers is simply too much. Write WP:BASC if you like, but you're not going to be unblocked by me today. Jayron32 13:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

• Note - I am not going to deal with any further unblock requests. But a note to any admin who does - NH's block log is certainly something. GiantSnowman 13:21, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I notice that there's been a call at AN for a community ban. I think any further admin action here should wait for the resolution of discussion there. --Dweller (talk) 13:24, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Neutralhomer (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Since I am not being given the chance to respond before you all pass judgement, let me say this on my third and final unblock request.
I said above I won't speak, interact or call the user's place of employment again. You all don't believe me. Semantics cause you to think "not likely" means I will call them again, even though I said I won't. Now there is a call for a community ban, I can't defend myself. My record is not a pretty one, but prior to this block, I was a year and a half without a block and the one in 2011 was done by an involved admin (I will let you all debate that). I kept my nose clean, did what I was told, jumped through the hoops, was trusted with access after access, I screw up, admit I screwed up, say it won't happen again, and everyone comes out the pitchforks and torches to run me out of town.
So, let me put it straight out here for you all: I screwed up, I will not call the user's place of employment again, I will not interact with the user. If you all still don't trust me, if you still don't believe me, if you would rather look at the bad rather than the multitude of good, then so be it. Ban me from Misplaced Pages. But if you all think that the good should overrule the bad, that a royal fuck up is embarrassment enough, that losing the trust of my fellow editors is bad enough, that a public flogging is bad enough, then unblock me, let me do what I said (take TV station and network pages off my watchlist) and try to win your trust back. Because I can't give you anymore than that. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 13:37, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Decline reason:

I'm declining this request, with no prejudice, purely because I think the timing is inadvisable and emotions are still running high and that a few days away from the dispute would help us look at the whole thing in a calmer manner. There's no "3 strikes" rule regarding unblock requests, and even if there were, this decline should not count as one strike. I'm declining it because I think it is currently in your best interest for me to do so, and it would improve your unblock chances to let the storm pass - there will be calmer weather next week. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Would someone do me a favour and post a link to the thread at AN? I can't find it. Peridon (talk) 13:37, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Bottom of this section. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 13:39, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I can rarely find things I'm looking for there. Peridon (talk) 16:02, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Neutralhomer, I would venture to say that one of the things making people uncomfortable about your unblock requests is that so far, you've focused on "Ok, I agree, I won't call this guy's job again." In a situation like this where your overall judgment is being called into question, people are going to be looking for something more like, "Ok, I agree. I will never again contact any user's place of employment off-wiki or do any other "sleuthing" like this." Just telling us you won't call this guy's boss again doesn't go far enough; it might help if you can express the degree to which you're sure anything like this won't happen again. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:13, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, I figured that was a given. If I have caught hell for calling one user's place of employment, I am pretty sure I would for anyone and I am VERY certain that if I did it again (for any user), it would be an instant indef-block. I was focusing on this user, because that is the user we are talking about. Yes, I am not going to contact any user's place of employment. If I thought it was stupid after I did it, I don't think I will do it again. But it is pretty moot at this point as the Community Ban discussion is underway and it isn't likely I am coming out of this one. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:16, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I gotta say I concur with this block. Just because someone uses company time to use wikipedia is really none of your business. Perhaps they don't mind. Perhaps he's allowed/encouraged to do so. A simple "I understand and I won't do actions like this ever again." would go a long way toward mending relations with WP. Buffs (talk) 14:20, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

You aren't the first and won't be the last. I was trying to stop vandalism. The company obviously didn't mind, I would like to think they didn't encourage it. I do understand and I have said it will never happen again, but the ban discussion rolls on and people still don't believe me. It's done, it's over with, I'm gone. That's all there is to it. I've accepted what's going to happen...if it hasn't already, haven't looked. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:23, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Final Edit

Apparently my words are falling on deaf ears or people are seeing what they want to see, whatever. I screwed up and I was punished. There is a 99.9% chance I will be the subject of a community ban probably within the next two hours. To be honest, I deserve it. It's done, it's over with, I'm gone and there isn't anything, apparently, I can say or do to make you all change your minds.

So, let me take this time to say "Goodbye" and "I'm Sorry".

A GA/FA/TFA article, a Class A article and a couple DYKs, along with being trusted with numerous tools, couldn't make people look away from that block log. That was and still is all people see. Whatever they give me, it's just.

But I let you all down. I failed you all in more ways than one. Trust me when I say, I do feel bad about what has happened, what I have done. I let you down when you trusted me with so much. I screwed up and I can't fix this. As of today, my "career" at Misplaced Pages ends at 6 years, 1 month and 18 days (according to the userbox on my userpage). It's too short, filled with too many screw ups, too much drama and not enough good.

I am sorry for failing you, for letting you down, for losing your trust, for causing problems, for making Misplaced Pages a worse place than when I came. But most of all, I am sorry for losing your friendship. I'm just sorry.

This will probably be the last time we will speak, so let me end this by wishing you well in whatever you do from this point on. I wish you the best in health, business, family, and life in general. Take care of yourself. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:35, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

One last thing: To answer User:Niteshift36's question on the Community Ban thread, I believe that when people go to work, they are there to do a job, whatever that maybe. I believe that, unless you are on break, you should be doing that job and not surfing the web and getting paid for it. To me, that feels wrong. It feels like someone who is stealing from the company they work for. Stealing by doing nothing and taking home a paycheck (ie: money) for not doing what they are employed to do. I believe that during break and after the employee leaves the parking lot, whatever they do in their free time is their business. But, on the job site, at their desk, or wherever their job is, they should be doing that job and not playing around on Misplaced Pages, tweeting friends, checking their Facebook page or doing whatever else online. We are at jobs to work, not play. People who want to play, should stay home. That's just my opinion and as my father says: opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. Gotta love my Dad. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:44, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• As I said in my post, I respect you and your opinion. Yes, we all have different opinions and we can disagree civilly, uncivilly or whatever. However, as I said, that is between that editor and their employer. The employer determines what is or is not acceptable time use or internet use policy. Your totally subjective and uninformed opinion should not be a factor. Were this person harrassing you personally via his company internet access, I'd support you 110%. But just because you think he is goofing off or what have you, well, that is impossible for me to support. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:23, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't over-react, there is a lot of discussion still to be had, but so far there does not appear to be any consensus for a community ban. GiantSnowman 15:03, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• No Homer, this isn't about opinions or assholes. These comments, while I understand you have the need to vent, won't salvage the matter. What is needed is an unequivocal "I screwed up"--the arguments about avoiding vandalism or the greater economic good simply don't apply and they weaken your case. Leave that be. You'll find that other editors besides me are breaking lances for you at AN; I don't want to see you get banned and apparently I'm not the only one. Don't keep the kettle boiling with more commentary: this is a time to reflect and respond sparingly, and to consider what kinds of things have gotten you in trouble. Getting too worked up and personally involved with editorial matters is possibly one of them: if problems come up, let admins (try to) deal with them. If they can't or won't, it's something you can't fix either unless by breaking some rules. Getting too excited over IPs (I think I know what gets your goat--the perceived anonymity of it all) is of no use either, and checking deeply into the histories of editors and IPs is likely to get you into trouble. The problems you find may well be legitimate, but unless you give up the idea that it is your personal responsibility to solve them you'll keep running into trouble since not all problems can be solved. Ah well. I hope this takes a turn for the better. Take it easy, close this browser window, and go for a walk for a day or two. The weather is gorgeous. Drmies (talk) 15:04, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Actually Drmies, what is needed is a "I will never, ever do anything like this ever again, ever" - which we haven't had yet. GiantSnowman 15:08, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• I think both need to happen, and I think there needs to be some time delay. I don't think saying it today works. Neutralhomer should come back in a week with an unblock request and make that clear. In addition, he needs to make it clear that regardless of his opinions on people editing from work, it is none of his business. Ryan Vesey 15:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
• Snowman, I think he knows that. I don't want to be encyclopedic here. But, and this is a philosophical note, one can do no more than promise such a thing; I do get a feeling that the modifiers Homer has used in his comments are prompted by the reality that sometimes we don't have everything under control, and that not stating absolute certainty that it won't happen again (which is an impossibility) is bothering other editors, including you I reckon. I can't fault him for not making the statement you say he should make, though I also understand the desire to hear him make that statement. Drmies (talk) 15:14, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Still reading; but great advice from Drmies and others, just above. You need to make a simple, clear, statement, here; “Sorry, never again.” Then we can move forward. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 15:23, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

And drop the vandalism shtick. You know perfectly well that if this was outright vandalism it would have been quite easy to get the IP blocked without resorting to calling his place of employment. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:58, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

What Beeble said--I guess he's more clear than I was. Drmies (talk) 04:27, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Community ban looks unlikely

Don't give up, you aren't going to be banned. Just say what Giant Snowman wants you to say (yes, you may think that's what you meant, but it will show your good will). Dougweller (talk) 15:16, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Exactly - some of your wording so far has not filled me with confidence to be honest. If you state clearly what you mean, then there can be no complaints. GiantSnowman 15:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Be patient; he may have been up all night, is certainly stressed. Drama and its subject are often out of sync, with the “fresh” participants at an advantage. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 15:35, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Nobody is rushing him. If anything, I'd personally prefer he took a few days to clear his head. GiantSnowman 15:39, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Dr Boing's prescription: Switch off your computer, go and have a nice long weekend away from Misplaced Pages, and come back a bit more relaxed next week. A number of less emotional !votes have now been cast, and I'd say a community ban is looking unlikely at this stage. They way to an unblock is still open, even if it might require a little time away in order to satisfy community consensus, but I don't think your 6 years, 1 month and 18 days is the totality of your contributions just yet. (And however badly you fucked up this time, you have not lost my respect for all the good work you have done here). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:03, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
• The whole situation is rather unfortunate. I have faith that calmer voices will prevail at WP:AN, but that doesn't change the fact that Homer must reflect on this and figure out what he needs to ensure it won't happen again. I'm hoping he can take a couple of days off, reflect a bit on the entire situation, and figure out how to insure that his emotions do not override his common sense like this ever again. If he can articulate this, I would be happy to welcome him back. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:05, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Sorry, rode up to the doctor's office with my Dad (he was just picking up some meds, no worries), so I was away. I did look in at the WP:AN thread and while I am very surprised people have !voted "oppose" and it does make me feel good, I honestly don't see me getting unblocked. I thought I said what everyone wanted me to say (things I do honestly mean when I say them), I thought I gave a path forward for myself, but I guess I didn't say enough. My block log shows (as does my sanction page) that I have said "I won't do this again" only to do it again. I'll be honest, I suck at social situations, always have (chalk that up to my Aspergers) and Misplaced Pages is no different. Even though it is online, it is still a social situation. I fall back into the same bad habits that I always have. I cause the same problems I always have (this one is different and really really bad). It is best for me, for the project, for the community, that I walk away. Cause after a little over 6 years, if I can't get my act together, I don't trust myself to do it. I don't want to open the project up to any offline problems if I screw up again, which my history, block log and sanctions page show, I will. I no longer trust myself to edit Misplaced Pages. I thank everyone for their support, but it's best for the community and the project if I step aside and I am. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 17:05, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

  Best to shut up in the heat of the moment. Just take a few days per Boing's and others' advice. The AN discussion was dying fast last I looked. We pick this up next week. where you make a clear statement and unblock request, and do *not* pile-on too-much-information. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 17:42, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Put a notice above your screen saying "Brain in gear before fingers or mouth!" or "Will this still seem a good idea tomorrow?". Then take Dr Boing's advice. Peridon (talk) 17:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
• Alright, the ban is in the can. You've gotten a ton of good advice here on how to request an unblock (give it some time) and on how to handle things in the future. What you could consider is getting a mentor; Wehwalt has indicated he might not be unwilling. I've proposed, in my usual vague manner, some editing restrictions to consider--I think particularly that 1RR, limiting yourself to one revert and no more in what for you are contentious areas, would be a good idea. I'm not just thinking that this is a way for other editors to police you, so to speak, but especially as a way for you to police yourself, if you want to come back here, and if you think this might be helpful you can make that explicit in your unblock request. Well, Homer, if I see you back again, don't make yourself scarce; drop me a line if I can help. If I don't, all the best to you: it's been a pleasure having been your mortal enemy for a while and a much greater pleasure having had you as a collaborator. All the best to you and to your dad, and happy trails, here or elsewhere. Drmies (talk) 04:35, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Let's Try Again

Neutralhomer (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

After clearing my head, letting things cool down and taking a couple days away from Misplaced Pages, I would like to try again.
Yes, I am sorry for calling the anon's place of employment. No, I was not trying to get him fired. Yes, I would have felt like crap if he did actually get fired. No, I will never call any user's (anon or sign in) place of employment ever under any circumstances. I will also go so far as to say I will never call any school (attached to a school IP, in cases of vandalism or otherwise) under any circumstances. Yes, I will steer clear of the anon (and his named account) and all pages the anon (and his named account) edits, even if they cross paths with me. Yes, I will agree to mentorship...if anyone is willing to take me.
Again, I am sorry for what I have caused, for what I have done, for losing folks trust, and I do feel bad and would like to make things right. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:56, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Accept reason:

Unblocked. See below. Homer will refrain from reverting and will stay away from what are widely seen as difficult areas for him (see discussion below). I will do my best to help him out and to mediate in disputes; I have no doubt at this time that Homer will play according to the rules. Drmies (talk) 03:26, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• I've pinged Fram, the blocking admin. While not strictly required, I think it is good to have him in the loop. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:43, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that 3 days is a long enough time, but the offer to edit under an mentor interests me. If someone willing was found, I would be inclined to support, with the understanding that neutralhomer will not only be expected not to revert to the behaviors that brought this block on, but in fact was to become a better editor than that. Crossing the line suggests you need to return to a place safely on the other side, after all.--Tznkai (talk) 01:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I am trying to do everything in my power (and with the help of others) to return to that place of safety on the other side. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:54, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• I support unblock. The behaviour that led to the block was an aberration, driven by frustration rather than malice, and Neutralhomer is clearly a dedicated Wikipedian who genuinely wants to help improve the project. Mentorship would be good, but I don't think it should be a condition of unblock -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:36, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• I have preemptively removed all TV station and TV network templates and pages, noticeboards and other related pages from my watchlist as they were a source of stress and problems now and prior. I have kept radio station pages on my watchlist as those have not been a source of stress and problems now or prior. I have also preemptively removed the anon's talk page and all related pages from my watchlist as well. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:12, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the note, Dennis Brown. I am not opposed to an unblock now, but would personally also prefer to have someone as a mentor for him first (while at the same time not being prepared to be that mentor myself; yes, that's kind of contradictory and not really helpful, but I don't think I'ld be a good mentor). If more people feel that an unblock without a mentor first is acceptable, then fine by me, but as it stands I'm not going to unblock yet. Fram (talk) 06:56, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• It is 3:33am here in Virginia and I am still fighting this stomach bug, so I am going to crash back out. I will respond to any posts as soon as I wake up. Take Care...Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:33, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
• Unfortunately, I missed this whole debacle, and haven't had a chance to catch up with it yet, but I do believe Homer genuinely accepts his mistake and regrets it, which a lot more than you can say of many indef blocked users. I'd support with or without a mentor, and would seriously consider mentoring, were I not in the middle of a period of inactivity. I already have half a dozen people I'm neglecting, I shouldn't take on more. Worm(talk) 07:36, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• When asked by Tokugawa Ieyasu about a retainer who had failed to submit certain taxes, the master swordsman Yagyu Munenori replied: "For a first offence, always forgive. For a second offence, forgive again, bearing in mind that even a penitent man may make mistakes. Only on the third offence should action be taken." Neutralhomer has been forgiven for his first, second, third and many more offences over the last four or five years. Each time, he has calmly apologised, demonstrated contrition, agreed to unblock conditions, and sworn to amend his behaviour; he has then been unblocked. (, ,, to show just a few instances)

I realise that I'm going against developing consensus here (not to mention the opinion of a couple of the project's most respected editors), but for what it's worth I still oppose an unblock. I've got nothing against Neutralhomer personally (I don't believe we've ever interacted before), but when an editor who has demonstrably repeated disruptive and harrassing behaviour after promising they would stop makes the same promise again, I see no reason to believe them. I don't doubt for a moment that NH is genuinely sincere in his unblock request, nor that he intends any further disruption or harrassment - but I also believe the same is true of his previous unblock requests, and we can all see what resulted. That's my personal take on the matter; I leave it to the rest of the admin corps to take it or leave it as they see fit. Yunshui 雲‍水 07:46, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• To be clear, I also support the unblock based on the idea of his getting a mentor, as well as the right of the blocking admin to have a reasonable time to respond, as this is an unusual circumstance in all ways. Since blocks are preventative (or should be), we can't arbitrarily say how many days it takes in this situation. We can either believe and trust Homer, or don't, and the arguments should center around that. It would be preferable if he had a mentor before the unblock, I would note, so we don't have to keep following up. I'm truly overbooked with mentorees and other duties or I would myself, as I think Homer is worth spending the time for. Perhaps Yunshui, being rightfully skeptical, could consider volunteering himself. Most of us admin have a few we mentor, not sure how many he has under his wings. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:07, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
• Homer, I'm going to unblock you. There's a condition, of course--someone will be your mentor. Until we find someone, it'll be me. Mind you, I probably suck at it, but hey, I'm all you got right now. What we'll do in the meantime is you check in with me anytime you feel a twitch in that finger or whatever other body part signals that you're about to make a call influenced by emotion.

  For the while, don't make any reverts, any reverts at all, not even BLP vandalism. If you run into something egregious in a BLP, post it at BLPN and Collect, who's always on call, will look at it. (You're welcome, Collect.) If it's bad vandalism, a 4chan attack or something like that, drop a note on ANI; for all other matters AIV will suffice. And you can always try me, of course--there's a bunch of good people watching my talk page and by now they're probably bored with looking at Dennis's poorly drawn penis. I've just pulled rollback from your account, just to stay on the safe side. Can you live with that? I'll keep an eye on this on and off tonight; I'm on kid duty also. If anyone objects strenuously, well, we'll hear about that as well. Drmies (talk) 00:12, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

  • Sorry for the delay, still not feeling well, so I had another nap. Post-flu shot reaction and a stomach bug, oh how fun. Anywho, since TWINKLE has caused problems in the past and in this instance (as Floquenbeam pointed out below), go ahead and ditch that as well. I can always do talk back notices and barnstars manually. :) Having to do vandalism warnings manually will make it less likely (MUCH less) to bother messing with them. I will admit that when you remove something that makes something easy for me, I am much less likely to do it. I'm a lazy kind of person. TWINKLE makes it easier to issue warnings (of course) and without that, I just won't bother, making it much more likely I will either ignore the problem (whatever it is) or go to an admin and not try to take the problem into my own hands (thus potentially causing a bigger problem like this time around). I am trying to eliminate all potential areas where I can get myself in trouble. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:33, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
• I'll need to hear an OK from the blocking admin as well. Fram's been here longer than most of us put together. I'll drop them a line. Drmies (talk) 00:15, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Fram commented above.--Tznkai (talk) 00:55, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Just a question on AIV, how would he be going there with requests for vandalism to be reverted? There's no system available for that. Ryan Vesey 00:58, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Just chipping in my two cents: The unblock request looks ok except for "No, I was not trying to get him fired." I call bullshit on that. However I wouldn't want to get hung up on that one point when it is clear that Homer knows what he did, for whatever reason he did it, was in serious breach of WP norms of behavior. Only he knows if he really has been away long enough to really get a fresh perspective on this incident, but the knowledge that one is being watched closely can sometimes be helpful in encouraging restraint and common sense. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:26, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
  • It is quite true when you have a couple dozen eyeballs on you, you will be restrained in your actions, which is why I agreed to the mentor in the first place. It is also why I voluntarily gave up TWINKLE above. I am actively trying to show people that I am worth taking a chance on, even after that major screw-up. As for the reason, I know some will always believe I did what I did for other reasons, those folks and I will have to agree to disagree, I guess. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:41, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Drmies is probably a sucky mentor (no I'm not volunteering), but probably a really good advice giver. So FWIW I support an eventual unblock, although for reasons I'm not sure I can specifically justify, my gut tells me further reflection and a wait is in order. I'll try to limit my kibbutizing (I know how annoying it can be for a mentor to get such "help" from others), but did want to say one thing: I've had run-ins with NH in the past, mostly when I decline some of his reports to AIV. It has always struck me that a very large part of the problem is NH's unconscious belief that "vandalism" is defined as "anything NH disagrees with". If you focus on that, I think you'll make progress. NH has, in the past, been good at recognizing his limitations when they're pointed out, but I have a feeling that he's never really internalized this one. So I have some small amount of trepidation when you (Drmies) recommend he go to AIV. I mean, I guess that makes sense, as long as he thinks very clearly "is this actually vandalism?" before the report. OK, sorry to complicate, good luck and I'll go away now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:37, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
  • This whole thing became complicated when I made that phone call to that anon's employer. You can't make it anymore complicated than that, so no worries. I have never been good at recognizing my limitations during the fact. I have always been a "mouth before brain" person. Chalk that up to the Aspergers, just being stubborn and bone-headed or whatever you want to call it. Normally, whether on-wiki or off, when I go "mouth before brain", I immediately insert foot into mouth. Offline, I have people who help me not do that and I am getting better at it. But online, I don't have that person to stop me from doing stupid crap, to allow me to bounce things off of, for me to ask "is this a really bad idea?". To me, it might seem like a great idea, while everyone else is thinking "what are you nuts?", but that's the way I am programmed. Yes, I am blaming my Aspergers in this case. But I am trying to make things better, I am trying to have that person to try me "what are you nuts?", to be there to bounce ideas off of when I am having problems with an editor, for help when I am being stubborn and bone-headed. I need that or I will fall back into old habits like I do offline. I had hoped I could keep my act together online, but obviously I keep inserting foot in mouth. Apparently I don't know my limitations until after the fact, I need to show me my limitations during the fact. I am trying. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:12, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I have to admit that I have some reluctance to unblock this editor. As Neutralhomer , and previously as Orangemonster2k1 (and as an assortment of socks created to evade blocks and continue to harass other editors) he has managed to earn multiple blocks every year since 2007: 6 times in 2007, 4 times in 2008 (not counting many block extensions or blocks of socks), 4 times in 2009, twice more in each of 2010 and 2011. Bluntly, it's not that hard to avoid being blocked when editing Misplaced Pages; when it happens year after year, there's something seriously wrong.

While the edit warring and personal attacks are problematic, I am most troubled by the recurring pattern of harassment of other Misplaced Pages editors. Blocks explicitly for harassment or wikistalking have been relatively infrequent (at least, looking at the block logs—there may be incidents that didn't draw blocks), but making a deliberate effort to drive off another editors from the project is among the more serious forms of misconduct we deal with. Not only has Neutralhomer ceased this sort of behavior, but he has escalated it. Instead of harassing and stalking other editors on-wiki – which is bad enough – he has moved up to telephoning another editor's employer as part of an attempt to 'win' a content dispute.

If unblocked now, I have no doubt that he will swear up and down that he will be good, and will resist the urge to let editing disputes escalate into harassment, and so on, and so forth. And I strongly suspect that he will be able to edit for a year or so more without more than his usual short blocks for garden-variety edit warring and minor incivility. Sometime down the road, though, another editor will rub him the wrong way, and he'll be right back to stalking. It's happened repeatedly; it's right there in the block logs. We know now that he's willing to track down someone in real-life, and is willing to vindictively and recklessly endanger someone's employment over a petty content dispute.

Neutralhomer has demonstrated that once he becomes emotionally involved in an issue, he has serious problems with disengaging appropriately. However valuable his content contributions may be, I cannot in good conscience accept that they counterbalance the likelihood that he will continue to stalk and harass other editors in the future. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:59, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

The block on May 22, 2011 was considered a bad block by an involved admin. I would like to think I haven't had a block that I deserved since April 22, 2010 (prior to this one), but I know that others will see it differently. Can't change the way people think.

As for my block log, yes, I have one. Yes, I did edit from another account. I have never tried to hide that. I abandoned that account to start anew after problems with an editor (ie: User:Calton). Ten, I really wish folks would read what I have previously said. I was not trying to "win" anything, I was trying to stop vandalism. I was trying to get an editor to listen to what two admins had told him to do and he had ignored. I attempted to use all boards available to me (AIV, ANI, admin talk pages) and came up empty each and every time. Yes, it was a very bad choice, but it was the only one I felt I had left. Is that an excuse? Yes, and a bad one (like the phone call), but it's the only one I have.

I am willing to give up the tools I was trusted with to show people I am worth taking a chance on. I know that won't win everyone's trust back (if ever), but I am trying. I am quite aware that I have had more than enough (in some people's opinions) second chances. But I like to believe that a person who is trying to make things right (as I am) and who has been publicly tarred and feathered, and rightly so, (as I have) for an admittedly very stupid screw-up and who has lost the trust of many of his on-wiki friends (as I have), I think that person has been punished enough. But that's what I like to think. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:01, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I can't help but note that you're...charitably reinterpreting...your history a bit. The Neutralhomer account made its first edit in early May 2007. You received your first block under this new name four months later, in September 2007—for gross personal attacks on Calton. While under another block for personal attacks on a different editor, you used a sockpuppet account (User:Flatsky) to harass Calton again in February 2008. That's nine months into your putative attempt to "start anew".

Step forward a couple of years. You got yourself into a few scrapes, before eventually establishing an ongoing hostile relationship with Delicious Carbuncle. That produced a 3RR block for you in September 2009, and you managed to keep up hostilities until you were indefinitely blocked in January 2010, for explicitly declaring an intent to hound DC: "I will be involved in every conversation you start".

Move up another couple of years. The frequency with which you have been blocked has dropped off, but you've recently moved into a whole new realm of hounding. I speak without hyperbole when I say that what you did was more serious than anything that came before it, and among the most serious violations of another editor's privacy I have ever seen. That you could even think that what you did was a suitable course of action, even if only in the heat of the moment, suggests to me that your impulse control and judgement have gotten weaker and not better over the years.

I don't know what you're going to do to another editor in 2014 when you're due for another big fight (as opposed to the little ones you usually engage in). I don't know how I'm going to explain to non-Wikipedians that our administrators thought it was a good idea to unblock someone who is willing to track down real-life contact information in order to harass them and threaten their employment. Even as a one-off 'mistake', I don't know if you would deserve an unblocking; in the context of all your behavior, Misplaced Pages can frankly do without you.

I don't doubt your sincerity; I am sure that you believe everything you're telling us, and all the promises that you're making, right now. But history seems to suggest that you will stray. What would have happened this week – to you, and to Misplaced Pages – if you had accidentally stalked a teenage girl?

Since the unblock below was announced while I was writing this, I will note, for the record, that I fully expect the unblock to be a terrible mistake, and I hope that when Neutralhomer is finally banned it won't be because of something that gets the project coverage on the evening news. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:04, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Pre-grave dancing isn't much better than grave dancing. If, for whatever reason, Neutralhomer gets into trouble again, then he will be blocked again, and if by some awful imperfection of life, he is not, Misplaced Pages will endure.--Tznkai (talk) 04:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict): @Ten: I find it a little disconcerting that you expect I am going to be reblocked, eventually banned, and may end up on the 6 O'Clock News. I know I will just have to work extra hard to regain your trust and prove you wrong. I was trying to be, as you called it, charitable, with my history...but only because I like to feel the past is in the past and we shouldn't live in it. My psychologist told me that. Yes, I have screwed up in the past. Yes, I do have a history of falling back into old habits. Yes, I have a history of putting my foot directly in my mouth. But I am trying to find ways (like a mentor) to keep that from happening. So, maybe instead of kinda rooting for me to fail, we can work together and you could be a secondary mentor to prevent things from getting anywhere near a "6 O'Clock News" level? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:21, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

@Tznkai: Thanks. I would like to get out of the hole I have dug for myself before someone shovels dirt on top of me. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:21, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• (I see that while I have been preparing a response, Drmies has gone ahead with the unblock.)

There is a pattern above of multiple unblock requests tinkering with getting the wording right.  There are other Wikis besides Misplaced Pages.  Even if we don't force Neutralhomer to permanently leave Misplaced Pages, an unblock for an abuse this severe IMO should not be discussed before four months to a year have passed.  Time is needed for behavior change, time is needed for Neutralhomer to establish habits that don't include Misplaced Pages, and time is needed for the community to heal.  Unscintillating (talk) 05:17, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Unblock

• OK, let's not get hung up on technicalities like reporting vandalism to AIV; you all know what I mean. Try typing something diplomatic and delicate (and correct) when your three-year old has discovered how much noise she can make with your PA system.

  Homer, it seems clear that many editors have a problem with "vandalism". I personally haven't declined any of your ANI reports, though I think I've turned down an RFPP or two, maybe. Anyway, that's obviously an area you need to stay away from for the while. I would suggest that article creation and expansion is risk-free. (God, I hate sounding like some kind of doctor--wait, I am a doctor!) You have a lot of fences to mend, and there's already enough vandal-fighters in the joint. Creators and writers, they're a rarer breed. Let me know if you see trouble or run into it, preferably before. With thanks to the others who have weighed in, especially those who disagree: we hope to prove you wrong. You also, drop me a line if there's something I need to know, on-wiki or via email. Drmies (talk) 03:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• One more thing. Various suggestions for restrictions have circulated, here and at AN. I am not ready, at this very moment, to lay down very specific rules. I'm not that good a wikilawyer, and I think that too-specific rules give a false idea of exactitude. It seems to me that certain kinds of problematic editing, including edit-warring and incorrect charges of vandalism, will easily enough lead to another block. Moreover, it seems obvious to me that any future block will become a matter of discussion at AN or ANI; at some point the community will render their opinion. I will do what I can to help out here, but (excuse me if this sounds redundant) any admin should do what they think is right; no one needs my permission for any action as a result of troubling edits or behavior. And if editors here feel that a list of restrictions should be in place, I have no problem entertaining propositions. We are all at the mercy of the community here, and I don't want to dictate what is right here. I will form my own judgment and act on it, keeping in mind that we are not here (at least not officially) for any other goal than to improve the project. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 03:36, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Thank you. I have went ahead and removed TWINKLE from my preferences and my Vector page. That should prevent any and all vandalism warnings. Beyond that, it will probably be a couple days before I make any edits. I will definitely take you up on that offer to article creation. Been putting off a couple articles for awhile. Outside that, I do understand on the restrictions that might come about. Just gimme a heads-up if you will. Again, thank you. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:38, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Neutralhomer, I'm glad to see you back able to edit with us again. If you ever need to bounce an idea off of somebody and Drmies isn't available, you can throw something on my userpage as well. Ryan Vesey 03:38, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks Ryan. Good luck with your flu, Homer. Drmies (talk) 03:50, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Thanks Ryan, much appreciated and I will keep that in mind. :) I am hoping the flu goes away soon, which is why I am putting editing off for a couple days so I am at my best and not in a cloudy medication-induced, flu-fighting fog. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:24, 10 October 2012 (UTC)