| Revision as of 03:57, 22 September 2012 editIn ictu oculi (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers180,560 edits →Requested move← Previous edit | Revision as of 07:33, 22 September 2012 edit undoKauffner (talk | contribs)32,539 edits →Survey: WP:RETAIN?Next edit → | ||
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| ] → {{no redirect|Bắc Kạn}} – The diacritics in this article has been moved 5 times without discussion the most recent move being the removal of the diacritics (from ] to Bac Kan) today. ] employs the diacritics, as do articles that employ the diactics for disambiguation ( see: ], ], ]). There is also no shortage of usage amongst english sources. The title with diacritics does appear to have about 20% more sources but in either case this move should have come to ]. Good case of ].--] (]) 15:47, 21 September 2012 (UTC) | ] → {{no redirect|Bắc Kạn}} – The diacritics in this article has been moved 5 times without discussion the most recent move being the removal of the diacritics (from ] to Bac Kan) today. ] employs the diacritics, as do articles that employ the diactics for disambiguation ( see: ], ], ]). There is also no shortage of usage amongst english sources. The title with diacritics does appear to have about 20% more sources but in either case this move should have come to ]. Good case of ].--] (]) 15:47, 21 September 2012 (UTC) | ||
| ===Survey=== | |||
| * '''Support''' - and grateful to Labattblueboy for this move proposal. The use of local Latin script (actually Portuguese based, but published in Rome in 1651) is consistent with (i) en.wp treatment of all other Latin-alphabet languages, Turkish, Maltese, Irish, Serbian. (ii) the only RMs there have been on VN geo names ] 2010, 2011, 2012. (iii) August RfC with 23 vs 16 for Vietnamese spelling. | * '''Support''' - and grateful to Labattblueboy for this move proposal. The use of local Latin script (actually Portuguese based, but published in Rome in 1651) is consistent with (i) en.wp treatment of all other Latin-alphabet languages, Turkish, Maltese, Irish, Serbian. (ii) the only RMs there have been on VN geo names ] 2010, 2011, 2012. (iii) August RfC with 23 vs 16 for Vietnamese spelling. | ||
| :There's another more basic reason as well, which won't be apparent to non-Vietnamese reading Users, but is particularly important here. It's the reason the Jesuit missionaries applied accents and tones to the old Chinese script in the first place. A British version "Bac Kan" could mean various things, but with the Portuguese-influenced accents: | :There's another more basic reason as well, which won't be apparent to non-Vietnamese reading Users, but is particularly important here. It's the reason the Jesuit missionaries applied accents and tones to the old Chinese script in the first place. A British version "Bac Kan" could mean various things, but with the Portuguese-influenced accents: | ||
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| :The markings in the alphabet created by the Jesuit missionaries - and later enforced/encouraged by the French don't just tell the reader how to pronounce the names, they also disambiguate between different meanings: The place name ], Northern Water-margins, isn't just a random set of letters it tells the reader something about the history/geography of the place. Of course few Vietnamese today can read or write the Sino "北" and "薄" which lie behind Bắc and Bạc, but everyone still knows that Bắc means "North" and Bạc means "Silver" ...but what does "Bac" mean? | :The markings in the alphabet created by the Jesuit missionaries - and later enforced/encouraged by the French don't just tell the reader how to pronounce the names, they also disambiguate between different meanings: The place name ], Northern Water-margins, isn't just a random set of letters it tells the reader something about the history/geography of the place. Of course few Vietnamese today can read or write the Sino "北" and "薄" which lie behind Bắc and Bạc, but everyone still knows that Bắc means "North" and Bạc means "Silver" ...but what does "Bac" mean? | ||
| :] (]) 01:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC) | :] (]) 01:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC) | ||
| ::"Silver distant"? Is this a joke? ''Bạc'' is {{linktext|薄}}. It has nothing to do with silver. It's probably just a way to write a sound phonetically using Chinese characters. ] (]) 06:30, 22 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. None of the methods of selecting a title recommended in ] would lead you to select one with Vietnamese diacritics in it. | |||
| **'''Method 1''': Consult other encyclopedias: '''', '''' and '''' do not use Vietnamese diacritics. '''' gives "Bac Kan." | |||
| **'''Method 2''': Consult GBooks: Out deghosted hits for ''"Bac Kan" -llc'', I found only two English-language books that give this name with diacritics: '''' and ''''. ''Moving Mountains'' does not otherwise use diacritics, so this example appears to be an editing oversight. | |||
| **'''Method 3''': Consult standard histories: Karnow's '''' (1997), Corfield's '''' (2008), Taylor's '''' (1991), and Woods' '''' (2002) do not use diacritics — or mention Bac Kan. The name is given without diacritics in Brocheux's '''' and in '''' (1998). | |||
| **'''Method 4''': Consult major news sources: The news media follows AP style and thus rarely uses diacritics, let alone Vietnamese diacritics. See , (Australia), , or . | |||
| :It's not a criteria in the guideline, but I also suggest consulting the Vietnam-based English-language media. It's their country and all, so perhaps they know how to spell this name. Here's a roundup: '''', '''', '''', '''', , , and . If you look at the VGP site, you can see that they used diacritics at one time, but no longer do so. Some may ask, "What's the harm in putting the marks in anyway?" The title is supposed to tell the reader the name of the subject as it commonly appears in English. To put in marks that are not found in the sources is to misinform. The marks will still be given in the article regardless of what the title is. ] (]) 06:30, 22 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *] has to with British vs American spelling. I don't the relevance. In the past year, this article has been at ] and at ], but not at the proposed form. ] (]) 07:33, 22 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 07:33, 22 September 2012
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The page should be Bắc Kạn, not Bac Kan. --Ionius Mundus 15:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Requested move
 | The request to rename this article to Bắc Kạn has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag. |
Bac Kan → Bắc Kạn – The diacritics in this article has been moved 5 times without discussion the most recent move being the removal of the diacritics (from Bắc Kạn city to Bac Kan) today. Bắc Kạn Province employs the diacritics, as do articles that employ the diactics for disambiguation ( see: Sông Cầu, Bắc Kạn, Cẩm Giàng, Bắc Kạn, Chợ Mới, Bắc Kạn). There is also no shortage of usage amongst english sources. The title with diacritics does appear to have about 20% more sources but in either case this move should have come to WP:RM. Good case of WP:RETAIN.--Labattblueboy (talk) 15:47, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Survey
- Support - and grateful to Labattblueboy for this move proposal. The use of local Latin script (actually Portuguese based, but published in Rome in 1651) is consistent with (i) en.wp treatment of all other Latin-alphabet languages, Turkish, Maltese, Irish, Serbian. (ii) the only RMs there have been on VN geo names Talk:Cà Mau 2010, 2011, 2012. (iii) August RfC with 23 vs 16 for Vietnamese spelling.
- There's another more basic reason as well, which won't be apparent to non-Vietnamese reading Users, but is particularly important here. It's the reason the Jesuit missionaries applied accents and tones to the old Chinese script in the first place. A British version "Bac Kan" could mean various things, but with the Portuguese-influenced accents:
- Bắc Kạn "Back" means Northern Water-margins wikt:北wikt:𣴓
- Bạc Liêu "Baak" means Silver Distant wikt:薄wikt:遼
- The markings in the alphabet created by the Jesuit missionaries - and later enforced/encouraged by the French don't just tell the reader how to pronounce the names, they also disambiguate between different meanings: The place name Bắc Kạn, Northern Water-margins, isn't just a random set of letters it tells the reader something about the history/geography of the place. Of course few Vietnamese today can read or write the Sino "北" and "薄" which lie behind Bắc and Bạc, but everyone still knows that Bắc means "North" and Bạc means "Silver" ...but what does "Bac" mean?
- In ictu oculi (talk) 01:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- "Silver distant"? Is this a joke? Bạc is 薄. It has nothing to do with silver. It's probably just a way to write a sound phonetically using Chinese characters. Kauffner (talk) 06:30, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. None of the methods of selecting a title recommended in PLACE would lead you to select one with Vietnamese diacritics in it.
- Method 1: Consult other encyclopedias: Britannica, Columbia and Encarta do not use Vietnamese diacritics. The CIA World Factbook, Book 2010 gives "Bac Kan."
- Method 2: Consult GBooks: Out 32 deghosted hits for "Bac Kan" -llc, I found only two English-language books that give this name with diacritics: Moving Mountains and Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang. Moving Mountains does not otherwise use diacritics, so this example appears to be an editing oversight.
- Method 3: Consult standard histories: Karnow's Vietnam: A history (1997), Corfield's The History of Vietnam (2008), Taylor's The Birth of Vietnam (1991), and Woods' Vietnam: An Illustrated History (2002) do not use diacritics — or mention Bac Kan. The name is given without diacritics in Brocheux's Ho Chi Minh: A Biography and in The French Indochina War 1946-1954 (1998).
- Method 4: Consult major news sources: The news media follows AP style and thus rarely uses diacritics, let alone Vietnamese diacritics. See Reuters, ABC (Australia), BBC, or RFI.
- It's not a criteria in the guideline, but I also suggest consulting the Vietnam-based English-language media. It's their country and all, so perhaps they know how to spell this name. Here's a roundup: VOV Online, Saigon Times, Tuoi Tre, Thanh Nien, VietnamNet, VGP News, and VietnamPlus. If you look at the VGP site, you can see that they used diacritics at one time, but no longer do so. Some may ask, "What's the harm in putting the marks in anyway?" The title is supposed to tell the reader the name of the subject as it commonly appears in English. To put in marks that are not found in the sources is to misinform. The marks will still be given in the article regardless of what the title is. Kauffner (talk) 06:30, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- WP:RETAIN has to with British vs American spelling. I don't the relevance. In the past year, this article has been at Bac Kan and at Bắc Kạn city, but not at the proposed form. Kauffner (talk) 07:33, 22 September 2012 (UTC)