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Esc2003

פארוק

Talknic

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Talknic

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Activism1234 20:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Talknic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions (I think, not sure... An admin recommended simply extending talknic's topic ban to Israeli-Arab articles and articles on the future of a Palestinian state or articles which state the views of any political leader who refers to Israel as the "Zionist regime." I don't mind that.)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 18 July This is the diff showing that Talknic was indef blocked from I-P articles, broadly construed, in July 2012. Also note he was previously indef blocked from I-P articles in 2011 as well.
2. 13 August Here Talknic was blocked for 72 hours for violating his topic ban, by making this edit.
3. 23 August He was warned by an administrator for violating his topic ban again by editing his namespace in an edit that violated the topic ban.
4. 27 August Again warned explicitly against violating the topic ban by editing his namespace in an edit that violated the topic ban.
5. 8 September - makes a disruptive edit to the article (and the talk page) of which he was blocked for 72 hours for editing. Although here it's an edit where he inserts a POV template (w/o exactly explaining why...), rather than make an edit about a UNSC resolution directly tied to I-P, the article itself as a whole is about Ahmadinejad's views on Israel, and his comments, which stem as a direct result of I-P, and should thus fall under broadly construed. Two different administrators have agreed that Talknic has been pushing the limits of his topic ban and testing the edges here, while there are millions of other unrelated articles Talknic could edit (but doesn't), and one of them suggested I should go to AE, so here I am.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

All is noted above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Admin Malik made a very good point. I don't have any preferences over indefinite ban or broadened topic ban, but I would like to point out that talknic's claims of consistently only maintaining NPOV seem superficial, when one takes a quick look at his YouTube page of his, devoted entirely to I-P and blatant POV against Israel (which is fine for YouTube, but not for Misplaced Pages), as well as his website. His Misplaced Pages account just looks to me like an extension of his online activities devoted solely to I-P. So honestly, I don't see a broadened topic ban being any different than an indefinite ban, and Malik is completely right when he/she says that talknic isn't interested in contributing to other areas of Misplaced Pages. --Activism1234 00:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)”

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Talknic

Statement by Talknic

I hope admins will at least give me time to prepare a reply and then take the time to read my comments on the matter, before reaching a decision. Shan't be long. Thx ... talknic (talk) 01:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Addressing the complaints
1) Part a. 18 July This is the diff showing that Talknic was indef blocked from I-P articles, broadly construed, in July 2012.

The TBan was not specifically across "all NameSpaces" and only dealt with the I/P issue. The Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel article is not under the same ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES as the I/P Issue. I sought clarification here & here

1) Part b. Also note he was previously indef blocked from I-P articles in 2011 as well.

False accusation. It was a six month TBan not an "indef block" and was specifically across "all NameSpaces".

Likewise I was pursuing the same, continued, purposeful breach of NPOV, which did not go away in my absence.

In both instances, the blocking administrators did not take into consideration the actions of the complainant in maintaining breaches of WP:NPOV for 16 months.

Oddly, the blocking administrator and complainant considered my dogged pursuit of an obvious and long standing breach of WP:NPOV to be tendentious. However, it is surely an inherent responsibility of all editors to address such breaches of policy, no matter how long they stand. It remains an inherent responsibility even after a TBan has expired.

Tendentious: is a continued and deliberate contravention of WP:NPOV perpetrated by the complainant over 16 months and his coercion of others to breach WP:NPOV policy, by consensus and other means, across all the following discussions - - - - - - - .

Instead they based their TBan decisions on prior determinations which had nothing to do with the new complaints resulting in those two TBans.

2) 13 August Here Talknic was blocked for 72 hours for violating his topic ban, by making this edit.

Quite so, just and accepted. I've not since mentioned the I/P issue

3) 23 August He was warned by an administrator for violating his topic ban again by editing his namespace in an edit that violated the topic ban.

The TBan was not explicitly to "all NameSpaces". I sought clarification of this issue from The Blade of Northern Lights . As it stands, it is now self imposed . I have not mentioned the I/P issue since.

4) 27 August Again warned explicitly against violating the topic ban by editing his namespace in an edit that violated the topic ban.

As before the TBan was not explicitly across "all NameSpaces".

5) Part a. 8 September - makes a disruptive edit to the article

False accusation. There is an obvious breach of WP:NPOV on the article. There are no Israeli statements against Iran or Ahmadinejad. Despite this obvious breach and it having been appropriately taken to the Talk page (before inserting the POV template), User:Activism1234 has removed the template

5) Part b. (and the talk page) of which he was blocked for 72 hours for editing. Although here it's an edit where he inserts a POV template (w/o exactly explaining why...), rather than make an edit about a UNSC resolution directly tied to I-P, the article itself as a whole is about Ahmadinejad's views on Israel, and his comments, which stem as a direct result of I-P, and should thus fall under broadly construed.

A) I made no edits in the 72 hour period.

B) ..he inserts a POV template Of course there's a breach of WP:NPOV

C) (w/o exactly explaining why...) Another false accusation. I took it to the Talk page 02:51, 9 September 2012 before the template was added 02:52, 9 September 2012

D) Opening line of the Lede -- "Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel refers to the relations between Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the State of Israel..." This could include non I/P issues where there have been contentious speeches and statements by Israeli representatives. Iran's Nuclear industry, Human rights, elections, Iran's Jewish population etc etc, none of which are I/P issues.

E) The Blade of the Northern Lights "I have to agree with Talknic here; Mahmoud Ahmadinejad isn't inherently about I/P (although certain parts of the article are, that wasn't what Talknic was editing), so I'm really not seeing it" 16:38, 9 September 2012

5) Part c. Two different administrators have agreed that Talknic has been pushing the limits of his topic ban and testing the edges here, while there are millions of other unrelated articles Talknic could edit (but doesn't)

Pushing the limits and testing the edges is how policy is refined

Further comments on the complaint
This complaint was lodged @ 20:32, 9 September 2012
Activism refines his sanctions request @01:52, 10 September 2012‎ after a bizarre request by EdJohnson @ 22:23, 9 September 2012 ... talknic (talk) 09:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Replies to Caili
It has already been determined by The Blade of the Northern Lights that the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel article is not inherently related to the I/P issue "I have to agree with Talknic here; Mahmoud Ahmadinejad isn't inherently about I/P (although certain parts of the article are, that wasn't what Talknic was editing), so I'm really not seeing it" 16:38, 9 September 2012
"The battle ground mentality demonstrated here on this board only agrevates the issue" A) Blatant breaches of WP:NPOV are battle ground mentality. Whereas drawing attention to breaches of WP:NPOV or any other breach of policy is an inherent responsibility for all editors. B) My comment to EdJohnson contains nothing even close to battleground mentality. Given the circumstances, his request is quite bizarre ... talknic (talk) 11:00, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Replies to Heimstern Läufer

I have already sought guidance and was eventually informed "I have to agree with Talknic here; Mahmoud Ahmadinejad isn't inherently about I/P (although certain parts of the article are, that wasn't what Talknic was editing), so I'm really not seeing it" 16:38, 9 September 2012

Opening line of the Lede -- "Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel refers to the relations between Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the State of Israel..." This could include non I/P issues where there have been contentious speeches and statements by Israeli representatives. Iran's Nuclear industry, Human rights, elections, Iran's Jewish population etc etc, none of which are I/P issues. "relations between Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the State of Israel", go two ways. The issue I raised in the article is the blatant breach of NPOV! ... talknic (talk) 15:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

"and since the POV tag was attached to the entire article. "

The "relations" throughout the entire article go only one way! "relations" go both ways. There are no Israeli statements towards Ahmadinejad/Iran in respect to elections, nukes, human rights, offers of earthquake relief, other allegations/accusations etc, not related to the I/P issue ... talknic (talk) 18:53, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

"we're OK to go ahead with blocking now"

Why on earth is there a place here for me to make a statement on the AE request? It seems no one ever reads the evidence I've given? ... talknic (talk) 01:59, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Reply EdJohnston

Broadening the ban, after the fact, after the ARBPIA tag was posted, while admitting the admin imposing the TBan didn't see it as a violation? What on earth for? Some minor 'testing the edges'? The article is completely biased. "relations between Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the State of Israel", go two ways. The "relations in the article are only going one way!]] There have been contentious speeches and statements made by Israeli representatives on Iran's Nuclear industry, Human rights, Elections, Iran's Jewish population etc etc, none of which are I/P issues.

I should get banned for pointing out a glaring, bias laden, one sided, blatant breach of NPOV? (Oddly enough the same as all the past discussions - - - - - - - . Sixteen months of No More Mr Nice Guy "tendentiously" maintaining a breach of NPOV, coercing other editors to breach policy by consensus, having to eventually admit a breach of NPOV existed, suddenly collaborating with Nishidani and based on much the same arguments I'd presented, made the edit himself, almost precisely as I had originally suggested. The issue was completely resolved to everyone's satisfaction at 20:35, 9 July 2012, vindicating my determination pursue the issue, even on return from being banned. A full six days later No More Mr Nice Guy then had the audacity to launch an AE request 20:35, 9 July 2012, accusing me of being "tendentious")

Answer me this if you will please: As long as there is a breach of NPOV, is it not an inherent responsibility for editors to deal with it, no matter how long it takes or over how many discussions? I should have faith in such a system that previously, after 16 months of trying to have a breach of NPOV addressed and; on eventually being vindicated by No More Mr Nice Guy's admission of a breach of NPOV, which he maintained and coerced other editors into consensus to maintain, I am again banned? Now here having a previous ban extended retroactively, for a non-violation and 'testing the edges', after pointing out a gross violation of NPOV over almost an entire article? ...talknic (talk) 20:00, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Ed "What he has done at the Ahmadinejad and Israel article is add a POV tag."

The POV tag was explained on the talk page, then added to the article because article is in breach of NPOV. It is an inherent responsibility for editors to deal with NPOV issues. The "relations" throughout the entire article go only one way! "relations" go both ways. There are no Israeli statements towards Ahmadinejad/Iran on elections, nukes, human rights, offers of earthquake relief, other allegations/accusations etc, not related to the I/P issue ... talknic (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Ed "There does not seem to be any proposal for content work in this case" ... "His activity at Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel is likely to cause turmoil but no actual improvement of the article"

A) I deliberately took the matter to Talk in order to collaborate, so as to address the breach of NPOV. Then added the POV tag. Is that not a recommended method for addressing issues and developing content? Instead we are almost immediately here! Opportunity to suggest, discuss, collaborate, NIL!

B) Addressing the blatant, over all POV issue in the article, would not be an improvement?

C) Articles where there has been improvement through my involvement. & & ( via ////////) & & . The prolonged laborious nature of the discussions being generated by those who REFUSED to collaborate on any material they didn't like, despite their every criteria being met and the continuous moving goal posts. In each case edits were made almost as I first suggested. In each case "turmoil" was generated by attempting to prevent "actual improvement of the article" ... talknic (talk) 21:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Replies T. Canens
As you agree with EdJohnston, and as you have also been involved in previous bans, please read the above reply to EdJohnston. Thx ... talknic (talk) 20:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Replies to Shrike
"I have marked article in question with ARBPIA tag as it clearly belongs to the I/P conflict."

I sought guidance and eventually informed "I have to agree with Talknic here; Mahmoud Ahmadinejad isn't inherently about I/P (although certain parts of the article are, that wasn't what Talknic was editing), so I'm really not seeing it" 16:38, 9 September 2012

Furthermore, a belatedly added ARBPIA tag, after the fact, has no bearing on this particular AE request.

We've already seen one instance of an administrator attempting to have the current TBan modified, 22:23, 9 September 2012 after the fact! and;

The complainant belatedly nominating the sanctions they'd like 01:52, 10 September 2012 After the fact!

"I think to stop Talcnic wikilawyering the ban should be from all Middle eastern topics and Jewish topics broadly construed"
I'm sure you'd be delighted. However there are guidelines administrators are bound to follow, complex as that might be ... talknic (talk) 15:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Replies to Malik Shabazz"
"Why is everybody pussyfooting around the real issue? talknic seems to have no interest in contributing to the project except with respect to the Israel-Palestine conflict."

A) The Blade of the Northern Lights "I have to agree with Talknic here; Mahmoud Ahmadinejad isn't inherently about I/P (although certain parts of the article are, that wasn't what Talknic was editing), so I'm really not seeing it" 16:38, 9 September 2012 B) Is it obligatory that one edits other areas on Misplaced Pages when one's time is limited and one would like to weed out dis-information and un-helpful POV on a matter of importance to ones Jewish fellows in Israel and Israel's neighbours? Peace will not come about as long as people are mis-informed and subjected to completely biased articles such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel.

"Why block her/him for one or two weeks; we all know we'll have to take action again in a month."

Because another breach of NPOV needs maintaining? ... talknic (talk) 03:04, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Replies to Activism
".. I would like to point out that talknic's claims of consistently only maintaining NPOV seem superficial"

I have given documented evidence of it here numerous times and in previous banning statements. None of which appears to have been read very thoroughly

"when one takes a quick look at his YouTube page of his, devoted entirely to I-P and blatant POV against Israel (which is fine for YouTube, but not for Misplaced Pages), as well as his website."

A)Irrelevant to my actions on Misplaced Pages and; B) Far from being blatant POV against Israel, it is in fact entirely FOR Israel, as an Independent State, living in peace with it's neighbours by upholding the International Laws, UN Charter and conventions it has ratified, as required by the UN and as a UN member state. Satire aimed at Israel's leaders who DO NOT live up to the UN obligations in no way represents an Anti-Israel POV.

"His Misplaced Pages account just looks to me like an extension of his online activities devoted solely to I-P."

Israel, being my Homeland State and; having a burning desire to see it and my fellow Israeli Jews living in peace is naturally at the top of my list of online activities. Peace will not come about as long as people are mis-informed or presented with biased POV articles

As you have already seen fit to reference my blog "All I ask, as do the numerous UNSC resolutions against Israel, is that it abide by the Laws and uphold it’s VOLUNTARY obligations to the UN, which in no way threaten Israel or diminish it’s right to protect itself in accordance with the UN Charter, the Laws of War or the Geneva Conventions"

".. talknic isn't interested in contributing to other areas of Misplaced Pages"

It is not in itself a bannable offense or obligation. It is however an inherent obligation to address inaccurate information and blatant breaches of NPOV for as long as they stand. If they're still there after a topic ban (for attempting to address them) has expired, there is still an obligation on ALL editors working in the subject to address them again and again and again until they are resolved! ... talknic (talk) 03:04, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Replies to The Blade of the Northern Lights
We were in fact making headway until Activism launched this AE request. We had already agreeing that the article in question was not entirely an I/P issue. I had already agreed to self ban from mentioning the I/P issue and from that moment did not. I don't envy your position BTW, at least you took the time to read my arguments and admit to there being gray areas and a less than explicit TBan. I just wish someone, anyone, would seriously look at the POV issue saturating the article ... talknic (talk) 03:25, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Talknic

Comment by Shike- I have marked article in question with ARBPIA tag as it clearly belongs to the I/P conflict. I think to stop Talcnic wikilawyering the ban should be from all Middle eastern topics and Jewish topics broadly construed .That will save the trouble for everyone.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 13:10, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Malik Shabazz — Why is everybody pussyfooting around the real issue? talknic seems to have no interest in contributing to the project except with respect to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Why block her/him for one or two weeks; we all know we'll have to take action again in a month. I recommend an indefinite block. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 18:17, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

When I first heard the complaint that Talknic was violating his ban, I didn't want to take action myself because Blade seemed to be giving him some latitude. However the repeated appearances of Talknic's name in connection with articles which are not well chosen for a person working under such a ban indicate to me that admins should take reasonable steps. My proposal is: "Talknic may not edit any article which mentions the Arab-Israeli conflict or the future of the state of Palestine, or states the views of any political leader who refers to Israel as a Zionist regime." The point of this is to broaden the scope of the ban to include the entire common-sense definition of the Arab-Israeli conflict. If Talknic seemed to be using common sense, this fine-tuning of the ban would not be necessary.

We also have been known to adjust the scope of bans if it seems that someone wants to do actual content work. There does not seem to be any proposal for content work in this case. What he has done at the Ahmadinejad and Israel article is add a POV tag. His activity at Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel is likely to cause turmoil but no actual improvement of the article. EdJohnston (talk) 16:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Talknic

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Under the terms of WP:ARBPIA the discretionary sanctions apply to all articles related to the arab-Israeli conflict. Not only are Talkinc's edits to the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel article in violation of this, but so to is his reply to Edjohnston here. The battle ground mentality demonstrated here on this board only agrevates the issue. Recommend block for 1-2 weeks--Cailil 10:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• There appears to be some dispute about whether this edit falls under the ban, as Iran is not an Arab country. I would submit that the edit does fall under it, as the article is clearly relevant to the Israel-Palestine dispute (the article speaks of how Ahmadinejad's opposition to Israel relates to the Palestinian people etc.) On those grounds, I see a violation and agree with Cailil's suggestion of a block. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 13:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Another issue being raised is that the article in question is not exclusively about I/P issues; that seems quite beside the point, what with the "broadly construed" and since the POV tag was attached to the entire article. I agree with KC that it would be good to hear from The Blade before closing, though I don't think I agree with TC entirely, and think it would be appropriate to close with a sanction if a consensus of admins deems this a violation. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 16:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
    • After The Blade's comments, it seems there's agreement that this was a violation, so I don't think the ban needs to be tweaked; I think it already covers what's necessary. I would also suggest that we're OK to go ahead with blocking now. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 00:50, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
• If it were up to me, I'd say that this is a violation as well, but when the admin imposing the ban didn't see it as a violation, I do not think it is appropriate for us to overrule him. On the other hand, we should consider broadening the ban, as EdJohnston suggested on Blade's talk page. T. Canens (talk) 15:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • You are really not doing yourself any favors here, talknic. Given Blade's view below, my first preference is an indef block per Malik above. Second preference is a two week block per Cailil. T. Canens (talk) 03:16, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
• I find I disagree with TBotNL; we generally interpret "broadly construed" broadly indeed, as the term indicates. I'd like to hear from him before we close this one. KillerChihuahua 15:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

  In retrospect, I think I'm the one who misread things here; looking over it again, it looks a lot more obvious than I initially thought. Since I think I've botched this one enough for now, I'll hold fire and let other admins figure out what to do. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)