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Daniel Radcliffe

With regard to the inclusion of Daniel Radcliffe's photo here (which I support), I offer the following: the name of this article is British Jews, not British Judaism, and that the lede of the article explicitly notes that secular Jews are a growing part of the community. From my point of view, the point of those pictures is to show diverse examples of the subject, and in context, Radcliffe, who the sources indicate to be a non-believing child of a mixed marriage who nevertheless is "proud" to self-identify as a Jew, makes an excellent representative. --Arxiloxos (talk) 02:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have a detail that explains the Jewish status of the people in the infobox - as in , mother Jewish, father catholic, subject is atheist and that such is the scope of the definition British Jew at wikipedia. I am British and as I understand it, (not how a Jew understands it, or how the many different branches of Jewish groups understand it) A British Jew is an immigrant or convert or a child of immigrants of Jewish parentage. People of mixed heritage are just that and do not belong in the infobox of this article unless you explain why they are there in the lede. Is there a shortage of British people with two Jewish parents to add their picture to the infobox, you only need nine ? - Radcliffe is not a British Jew, in Britain he's a British person with a Jewish mother and an Irish father and nothing (including wikipedia) will change that reality. Off2riorob (talk) 02:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Despite your extremely distasteful insistence that Radcliffe is not a "full jew" and that we need a "better jew", Misplaced Pages actually goes by what reliable sources say, not the prejudices of editors. The fact that he says he's "very proud of being Jewish" is more than enough, and Misplaced Pages does need to "explain why" he's Jewish to anyone, no matter what their personal opinions are about who is or isn't as a Jew. Jayjg 03:45, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Off2riorob—I would think we would go by reliable sources. Do reliable sources say he's British? Do reliable sources say he's Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 03:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think I've seen any reliable sources described him as "half Jew", as Off2riorob has done. I didn't know people were still applying the Mischling Test. Jayjg 23:09, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I think his picture should be replace with that of Labour Leader Ed Milliband as the leader of the opposition is more important than an actor I made this change myself but it was reverted. Dont want to start an edit war so I want your opinions on whether Ed Milliband deserves to be on there and who he should replace. I would have replaced Amy Winehouse, she's a mere musician, but she died and now she's a martyr or something. Eopsid (talk) 21:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Miliband is reasonably well known in England, but he's never even been Prime Minister. On the other hand, Radcliffe is internationally famous, far more so than Miliband - I daresay he's better known even in England than Miliband. I have no objection to having both, but given that the montage already has a politician (one much more famous and accomplished than Miliband), Miliband shouldn't be substituted for Radcliffe. Jayjg 05:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Miliband

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Why was Ed Miliband removed from this article without any discussion? Viriditas (talk) 22:18, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

He was added without any discussion - Youreallycan 22:20, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Ed Miliband should have been removed from the photo-box. Sources:

1. ) "Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense."

2. ) "Their childhood was unusual, being the children of Belgian-born Marxist Ralph Miliband and his Polish Jewish wife Marion Kozak, which meant their home was dominated by political discussion."

3. ) "Ed Miliband’s Jewish intellectual heritage could not be more impeccable. His father, Ralph Miliband remains a colossus of the British left, who lies buried in Highgate cemetery within sight of Karl Marx himself. His mother Marion Kozak, is a feminist thinker and human rights activist of considerable renown. Both parents were Polish Jews who came to Britain as refugees from fascism."

4. ) "'My Jewish identity was such a substantial part of my upbringing that it informs what I am,' he said."

To say that Ed Miliband is not Jewish should also require sources. Bus stop (talk) 22:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Well then, it appears we have consensus. Viriditas (talk) 22:23, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

As there are good sources, there was no good reason to remove Milliband, certainly not without discussion. I think it's clear there's no problem with including him here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• I've got no dog in the fight, maybe the solution is to note in some way that Miliband comes from a multi-ethnic background. —Carrite 22:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't understand. Most of us come from multi-ethnic backgrounds. Viriditas (talk) 22:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Its not clear that he should be included. He acknowledges the heritage and its importance agreed. However underpinning this whole debate is the degree to which Jewishness is an ethnic or a religious identity for the purpose of making it a major feature of someones biography as opposed a a part of the history. That needs more discussion ----Snowded 22:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how that is under debate here at all. Clearly, Milliband's ethnic "identity' is Jewish, as stated by himself. His parents were Polish Jews and he's a British Jew. What exactly is there to discuss? Are there sources disputing Milliband's identity? If not, there's nothing to talk about. Viriditas (talk) 22:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• .... and is not a notable British Jew - brought up in a secular enviroment n- he is also a Marxist atheist and it seems undue to include him here in the infobox without any clarification of that - Youreallycan 22:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
  • A "Marxist atheist" is not an ethnicity. His parents were Polish Jews and he self-identifies as a British Jew, and he's notable. The absence of a religious belief is not a religious belief. If you don't have sources supporting your original research on this matter, then I'm afraid we can't use your contributions. Viriditas (talk) 22:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
• .... and is not a notable British Jew - brought up in a secular enviroment n- he is also a Marxist atheist and it seems undue to include him here in the infobox without any clarification of that - The living person is categorized with sensitivity as a British person of Jewish descent rather than a British Jew- Youreallycan 22:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)Youreallycan 22:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Most Jews are brought up in secular environments, so your statement is ridiculous. Look at the stats. Viriditas (talk) 23:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
    • WP:AGF please. We don;t say that someone is a Christian because they were brought up in a Christian background. Ok it may be different but it needs discussion and some evidence that Jewishness is somehow different from other religions/ethnicities. ----Snowded 23:06, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
      • Christianity is not an ethnicity, and there's nothing to discuss. Go read Jewish ethnic divisions. Ed Miliband is of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage. The largest members of the Jewish community are secular. Viriditas (talk) 23:14, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
• (ec)He acknowledges the heritage, that is not the same as self identification. He has to be notable as a British Jew to be included here, not notable + having a jewish heritage ----Snowded 22:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

YRC, there is no contradiction between being a British Jew and a Marxist atheist. I suggest being careful with any contrary assertion -- it will merely demonstrate (again) that you don't know what you're talking about. Snowded, he is notable as a British Jew for being the first Jewish leader of the Labour Party. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• and he self-identifies as a British Jew, no he doesn't - .... and is not a notable British Jew - brought up in a secular enviroment n- he is also a Marxist atheist and it seems undue to include him here in the infobox without any clarification of that - The living person is categorized with sensitivity as a British person of Jewish descent rather than a British Jew- Youreallycan 22:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)Youreallycan 22:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

First leader of the Labour Party from a Jewish background. Sorry its not the same thing. ----Snowded 22:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you see the post above, "obviously I'm Jewish"? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:50, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and I read the whole statement ----Snowded 22:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

If he's the first leader of the Labour Party from a Jewish background, then that makes him notable as a British Jew. Why is it not the same thing? I think your reading of the category is just wrong. Most Jews are secular, so according to you and Rob, most Jews can't be categorized. This is a good example of how Misplaced Pages editors get it wrong. Viriditas (talk) 23:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Please show me a source which shows that Jewishness is treated differently from being a Christian or a Muslim or whatever. Most people of a Christian background in the UK are now secular, so we don't list them as British Christians. You need to provide evidence not your opinion for your assertions. ----Snowded 23:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

See Jewish ethnic divisions and ethnoreligious groups. Are you not paying attention? Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thats fine, go add some dead or clear supportabl person - Youreallycan 23:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, we've already shown, with source evidence, that Ed Miliband is considered a British Jew. What sources can you offer otherwise? I really don't think original research from Snowded and Youreallycan is a "supportabl" source. Viriditas (talk) 23:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

You haven't show that, you have show that he identifies with the ethnic background, acknowledges its profound influence etc. etc. I don't anything in your links that establish that Jewishness should be treated any differently from any other ethnic or religious identity (and would strongly object to any such attempt). Now do you have a source which says it does? And in the meantime please deal with content issues rather than commenting on editors. ----Snowded 00:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Snowded—you say "We don;t say that someone is a Christian because they were brought up in a Christian background" and you say "Please show me a source which shows that Jewishness is treated differently from being a Christian or a Muslim or whatever." Reliable sources can be understood to be knowledgeable about these matters. Reliable sources can be understood to be aware of the differences between Judaism and Christianity. And reliable sources have a reputation for fact-checking. All sources that address the question at all provide affirmation that Ed Miliband is Jewish and no source has been presented suggesting that Ed Miliband might not be Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 00:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

You have reliable sources that he has a jewish heritage which he acknowledges, you can't derive from the sources quoted above that Jewishness should be treated differently from other religions and ethnicities. As to your statements about the nature of reliable sources, I am sorry you cannot make assumptions like that. Poor research, a source is a source, you can't derive additional meaning just 'cause it suits your position. ----Snowded 05:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Snowded—should reliable sources define Jews by a definition applicable to another identity? We assume that reliable sources have done their homework in this regard. It is axiomatic that each identity has its own definition. We assume that a multitude of sources have not overlooked some aspect of the definition of a Jew and we assume they are applying the criteria pertinent to Jews. All information at Misplaced Pages is filtered through reliable sources. Why aren't there any sources saying that perhaps Ed Miliband may not be Jewish? Don't any reliable news outlets or biographers want to get the scoop on that piece of information? If there were any reason to think that Ed Miliband were not Jewish would not some source have conveyed that piece of information by now? Yet neither you nor any other editor is showing us any source suggesting that the individual might not be Jewish. I suggest that we adhere to the findings of those reliable sources that are available to us. Bus stop (talk) 11:40, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

We should always adhere to reliable sources, but you are failing to grasp the point. The sources you quote above establish clearly that he has a Jewish heritage, but also that he is not practicing. If you have a source that says that Jewishness is somehow different to being Christian then please show it. Your speculation about the background of the sources is original research or synthesis or both. We use sources for what they say, not for what editors think they might imply. I have provided links to the relevant policies to help you out here ----Snowded 13:27, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking at this discussion I have sympathy for both views. It's certain that he says he's Jewish, but not a practicing one, Just as I am Christian but a non practicing one. I would say that the title does not give the full story here and that if i wondered who out there where Jewish but non practicing ones I would probably like to have a seperate article on that. If the seperate article where to be written that might be solve the problem. I would leave him out of this article until such a time someone deems it a good idea to have a seperate article and include him there. Clay More47 (talk) 15:14, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Snowded—you say "If you have a source that says that Jewishness is somehow different to being Christian then please show it." We don't have to show that. We don't have to show that Judaism is different from Christianity because it is axiomatic that they are different. They are not the same identity. They are different identities. No two identities are alike. In some instances one can find correspondences between two different identities—an aspect of one identity may correlate with an aspect of another identity. But even then there are aspects of one identity that do not correspond to aspects of another identity. Christianity and Judaism are two different identities, despite any similarities that one may be able to point to. We do not have to sort through comparisons between various identities. Reliable sources do that for us. If a source is considered "reliable" its qualifications generally include knowledgeability and fact-checking. Consider this source: "Ed Miliband has described the importance of his Jewishness to his own identity, saying it is 'intertwined' with his Britishness." The preceding sentence makes a reference to Ed Miliband's "Jewishness". Is that because he is not Jewish? Or another source: "Ed Miliband could become the United Kingdom's second Jewish Prime Minister, following in the footsteps of Disraeli, the Victorian statesman who led the country from 1874 to 1880." How could Ed Miliband "become the United Kingdom's second Jewish Prime Minister" if he is not Jewish? Yes, you can argue that Ed Miliband is not Jewish—but the primary means that would be accomplished, in my opinion, would be by bringing sources. The absence of sources weakens your argument. Also, to move this discussion forward, I think you should respond to the sources presented. The two above sources would seem to me to accomplish the purpose of establishing that Ed Miliband is Jewish. Is there some reason that you would feel that my above two sources fail to accomplish that? Bus stop (talk) 15:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Last I heard Christianity and Judaism were both religions. Your sources clearly provide his origins, and clearly state he is not practicing. End of argument unless you prove that Judaism as an ethnicity overrides nationality in a way that Christianity or Islam doesn't. There are some bad historical precedents for that position mind you. Now you might want to argue that in the US media (your Huffington Post stuff) Jewish origins is enough to use the label "Jewish" but I think we need something more serious to rely on that. ----Snowded 20:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Snowded—you express concern that The Huffington Post is an American news website. But British sources are also available confirming that Ed Miliband is Jewish. Sources need not be British but all British sources concur with all American sources on this point. You have yet to bring any source of any nationality suggesting that Ed Miliband might not be Jewish. This is a photo-box for the article "British Jews". It seems to me Ed Miliband would be one of the top choices for such a photo-box. He is Jewish according to all sources and he holds a high position in British government according to all sources.

You say "Last I heard Christianity and Judaism were both religions." That is the last I heard also and that is presumably something that reliable sources are aware of. Reliable sources are saying that Ed Miliband is Jewish and they presumably are aware that Christianity and Judaism are religions. Below are four more sources supporting that Ed Miliband is Jewish:

"If Ed Miliband, leader of Britain's Labor Party, emerges victorious from the country's next general election, he will become the first Jewish Prime Minister to inhabit Number 10 Downing Street since Benjamin Disraeli renovated the innards of that venerable residence in 1877."

"Ed Miliband has become the first Jewish leader of the Labour party."

"Is it increased tolerance or mere indifference that allowed Labour to elect a Jewish atheist as its new leader without any outcry?"

"Labour's first Jewish leader has paid tribute to his religion by smashing a glass at his wedding." Bus stop (talk) 00:32, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many more ways there are to explain this to you. He is of Jewish background, he is not a practicing Jew. This is an article on British Jews.

We might well include some variants of those statements in commentary on his user page,. Oh and I am not challenging huffing post as a reliable source. Please try and think about what tho sources say in the context of this article.----Snowded 08:43, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Snowded, you needn't try to explain it further, because your explanation is flawed. One need not be a "practicing Jew" to be a Jew. Your apparent belief to the contrary shows the limits of your knowledge on this matter. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:18, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

and the great Nonoskedasticity speaks and all other mortals are flawed, sorry I hadn't realised ----Snowded 22:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I think we are all in agreement that Ed Miliband is a British Jew, considers himself a British Jew, and is described as a British Jew by reliable sources. With that said, there doesn't appear to be anything left to discus and the photo should be added back without delay. To repeat, there is no good evidence to the contrary other than IDONTLIKEIT and that isn't a valid argument for removal. Original research and commentary by Youreallycan and Snowded is interesting and appreciated, but cannot be used to argue against inclusion. As far as I can tell, we have consensus to include the image, consensus supported by good sources and arguments based on evidence. Viriditas (talk) 01:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

You don've have consensus for change, opinion is roughly even on both sides. The statements you make above about original research etc. are your opinion. You are not responding to arguments, just restating your view which I for one thing is a misinterpretation. ----Snowded 10:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Based on the editors and arguments on this page, I see a clear consensus for restoring the image, an image that was removed for no reason. What reason do you offer for removing it? The sources call the subject a British Jew, the subject self-identifies as a British Jew, and according to who is a Jew?, the subject is classified as a Jew. What else is there to discuss? Do you have sources contradicting the sources offered? No? Then this discussion is over and the image will be restored. Viriditas (talk) 13:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The subject does not self identify as a British Jew at all - he recognizes his Jewish heritage only - Youreallycan 13:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

He self-identifies and recognizes his heritage, and there is no difference at all. Please keep your original research to yourself. IDONTLIKEIT isn't a valid reason to remove the image. Based on the sources and the classification in use at who is a Jew?, and the established consensus on the talk page the image gets added. Viriditas (talk) 13:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Summary

So let me be clear on this:

• He acknowledges his Jewish Heritage but specifically states he are not practicing
• We would not list someone as a prominent British Christian if they said they were an atheist
• No one has established that Jewishness is different from Christianity or other religions, so that needs to be proved by reliable third party sources, not just the causal use of the word in some newspapers.
• Even if some choose to use the label, this article is about prominent British Jews so the burden of proof for inclusion is higher and (again) he is not practicing

So can we less of the judgemental statements and accusations and a little more engagement with the arguments please. ----Snowded 11:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you know anything about Judaism? Have you studied about it, perhaps? I find your third point troubling (and the phrase "causal use of the word" incomprehensible). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Snowded—you say "We would not list someone as a prominent British Christian if they said they were an atheist". Jews should be defined according to the definition applicable to Jews; Christians should be defined according to the definition applicable to Christians. But I don't think we need to engage in a quagmire of discussion over this when we are talking about sourced information. I think we can presume that sources are aware of these two important religions. By the way, you are asserting that he is "not practicing". If this is so would not sources be aware of this? Bus stop (talk) 12:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I've asked the pair of you several times to find a reference to support your assertion that the definition applicable to Jewishness is in some way different (and I find your assertion worrying by the way). If it is so self evident it should be difficult for you find an academic source which states it. However even if you establish that, then you need find some reason to argue that someone who has specifically said he is not a practicing Jew and is at least the second generation of his family to be an atheist, belongs in an article on British Jews. This is not an article on people in Britain of Jewish origin. ----Snowded 13:55, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

It's explained in detail at who is a Jew?. Being a 1) secular 2) Marxist 2) atheist does not change his status as a British Jew in any way, and the subject still self-identifies as a British Jew. It is original research on your part and on the part of Youreallycan to repeatedly claim that Jewish people cannot be 1) secular 2) Marxist and 3) atheist. You don't have a single source nor any justification for removing the image. Viriditas (talk) 13:59, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment I have marked the edit request as answered. There is no need for it any more, as the page protection has expired. Best — Mr. Stradivarius 07:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Consensus issue

Three editors against two is not a consensus, the fact that you think you are right does not give you any special authority to override others. If you don't like this then raise an RfC or similar. There are alternatives to edit warring, please use them ----Snowded 13:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with how many editors but how many arguments, of which you have zero. Original research combined with IDONTLIKEIT does not an argument make. Claiming that a Jewish person cannot be a "Marxist atheist brought up in a secular family" is simply not supported, nor do you have a single source supporting that claim in regards to the subject. Consensus is based on arguments which are in turn based on sources. You have none of those. Viriditas (talk) 14:03, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

not - no consensus - and i dont like it - that it is clearly still disputed and about a living WP:BLP Marxist atheist brought up in a secular family being tagged and promoted as a notable British Jew when we do not catagorise him as one on his wiki biography - is the argument - Youreallycan 14:03, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Except, you haven't disputed a single thing. Disputing something means providing evidence, sources, arguments—all of which you lack. There's consensus for inclusion because there isn't a single valid argument for exclusion. Being a secular, Marxist atheist does not exclude you from being Jewish. Is this making sense yet? Obviously, you haven't read Jewish atheism. Perhaps you should? The reason we don't categorize the subject in his biography is solely because you removed the category. It's your little POV pushing campaign you're waging under the false rationale of "BLP". Viriditas (talk) 14:12, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

How much experience do you have of Misplaced Pages? Telling other experienced editors that they have no evidence etc. etc. is just your argument, its not truth just because you say it. I interpret the evidence presented differently from you. Sorry about that, but it happens. I've asked you for some evidence to support your claim about the nature of Jewishness. It should be easy for you if it is as self-evident as you think. ----Snowded 14:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

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