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Daniel Radcliffe

With regard to the inclusion of Daniel Radcliffe's photo here (which I support), I offer the following: the name of this article is British Jews, not British Judaism, and that the lede of the article explicitly notes that secular Jews are a growing part of the community. From my point of view, the point of those pictures is to show diverse examples of the subject, and in context, Radcliffe, who the sources indicate to be a non-believing child of a mixed marriage who nevertheless is "proud" to self-identify as a Jew, makes an excellent representative. --Arxiloxos (talk) 02:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have a detail that explains the Jewish status of the people in the infobox - as in , mother Jewish, father catholic, subject is atheist and that such is the scope of the definition British Jew at wikipedia. I am British and as I understand it, (not how a Jew understands it, or how the many different branches of Jewish groups understand it) A British Jew is an immigrant or convert or a child of immigrants of Jewish parentage. People of mixed heritage are just that and do not belong in the infobox of this article unless you explain why they are there in the lede. Is there a shortage of British people with two Jewish parents to add their picture to the infobox, you only need nine ? - Radcliffe is not a British Jew, in Britain he's a British person with a Jewish mother and an Irish father and nothing (including wikipedia) will change that reality. Off2riorob (talk) 02:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Despite your extremely distasteful insistence that Radcliffe is not a "full jew" and that we need a "better jew", Misplaced Pages actually goes by what reliable sources say, not the prejudices of editors. The fact that he says he's "very proud of being Jewish" is more than enough, and Misplaced Pages does need to "explain why" he's Jewish to anyone, no matter what their personal opinions are about who is or isn't as a Jew. Jayjg 03:45, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Off2riorob—I would think we would go by reliable sources. Do reliable sources say he's British? Do reliable sources say he's Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 03:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think I've seen any reliable sources described him as "half Jew", as Off2riorob has done. I didn't know people were still applying the Mischling Test. Jayjg 23:09, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I think his picture should be replace with that of Labour Leader Ed Milliband as the leader of the opposition is more important than an actor I made this change myself but it was reverted. Dont want to start an edit war so I want your opinions on whether Ed Milliband deserves to be on there and who he should replace. I would have replaced Amy Winehouse, she's a mere musician, but she died and now she's a martyr or something. Eopsid (talk) 21:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Miliband is reasonably well known in England, but he's never even been Prime Minister. On the other hand, Radcliffe is internationally famous, far more so than Miliband - I daresay he's better known even in England than Miliband. I have no objection to having both, but given that the montage already has a politician (one much more famous and accomplished than Miliband), Miliband shouldn't be substituted for Radcliffe. Jayjg 05:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Miliband

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Why was Ed Miliband removed from this article without any discussion? Viriditas (talk) 22:18, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

He was added without any discussion - Youreallycan 22:20, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Ed Miliband should have been removed from the photo-box. Sources:

1. ) "Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense."

2. ) "Their childhood was unusual, being the children of Belgian-born Marxist Ralph Miliband and his Polish Jewish wife Marion Kozak, which meant their home was dominated by political discussion."

3. ) "Ed Miliband’s Jewish intellectual heritage could not be more impeccable. His father, Ralph Miliband remains a colossus of the British left, who lies buried in Highgate cemetery within sight of Karl Marx himself. His mother Marion Kozak, is a feminist thinker and human rights activist of considerable renown. Both parents were Polish Jews who came to Britain as refugees from fascism."

4. ) "'My Jewish identity was such a substantial part of my upbringing that it informs what I am,' he said."

To say that Ed Miliband is not Jewish should also require sources. Bus stop (talk) 22:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Well then, it appears we have consensus. Viriditas (talk) 22:23, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

As there are good sources, there was no good reason to remove Milliband, certainly not without discussion. I think it's clear there's no problem with including him here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• I've got no dog in the fight, maybe the solution is to note in some way that Miliband comes from a multi-ethnic background. —Carrite 22:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't understand. Most of us come from multi-ethnic backgrounds. Viriditas (talk) 22:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Its not clear that he should be included. He acknowledges the heritage and its importance agreed. However underpinning this whole debate is the degree to which Jewishness is an ethnic or a religious identity for the purpose of making it a major feature of someones biography as opposed a a part of the history. That needs more discussion ----Snowded 22:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how that is under debate here at all. Clearly, Milliband's ethnic "identity' is Jewish, as stated by himself. His parents were Polish Jews and he's a British Jew. What exactly is there to discuss? Are there sources disputing Milliband's identity? If not, there's nothing to talk about. Viriditas (talk) 22:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• .... and is not a notable British Jew - brought up in a secular enviroment n- he is also a Marxist atheist and it seems undue to include him here in the infobox without any clarification of that - Youreallycan 22:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
  • A "Marxist atheist" is not an ethnicity. His parents were Polish Jews and he self-identifies as a British Jew, and he's notable. The absence of a religious belief is not a religious belief. If you don't have sources supporting your original research on this matter, then I'm afraid we can't use your contributions. Viriditas (talk) 22:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
• .... and is not a notable British Jew - brought up in a secular enviroment n- he is also a Marxist atheist and it seems undue to include him here in the infobox without any clarification of that - The living person is categorized with sensitivity as a British person of Jewish descent rather than a British Jew- Youreallycan 22:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)Youreallycan 22:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Most Jews are brought up in secular environments, so your statement is ridiculous. Look at the stats. Viriditas (talk) 23:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
    • WP:AGF please. We don;t say that someone is a Christian because they were brought up in a Christian background. Ok it may be different but it needs discussion and some evidence that Jewishness is somehow different from other religions/ethnicities. ----Snowded 23:06, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
      • Christianity is not an ethnicity, and there's nothing to discuss. Go read Jewish ethnic divisions. Ed Miliband is of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage. The largest members of the Jewish community are secular. Viriditas (talk) 23:14, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
• (ec)He acknowledges the heritage, that is not the same as self identification. He has to be notable as a British Jew to be included here, not notable + having a jewish heritage ----Snowded 22:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

YRC, there is no contradiction between being a British Jew and a Marxist atheist. I suggest being careful with any contrary assertion -- it will merely demonstrate (again) that you don't know what you're talking about. Snowded, he is notable as a British Jew for being the first Jewish leader of the Labour Party. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• and he self-identifies as a British Jew, no he doesn't - .... and is not a notable British Jew - brought up in a secular enviroment n- he is also a Marxist atheist and it seems undue to include him here in the infobox without any clarification of that - The living person is categorized with sensitivity as a British person of Jewish descent rather than a British Jew- Youreallycan 22:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)Youreallycan 22:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

First leader of the Labour Party from a Jewish background. Sorry its not the same thing. ----Snowded 22:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you see the post above, "obviously I'm Jewish"? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:50, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and I read the whole statement ----Snowded 22:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

If he's the first leader of the Labour Party from a Jewish background, then that makes him notable as a British Jew. Why is it not the same thing? I think your reading of the category is just wrong. Most Jews are secular, so according to you and Rob, most Jews can't be categorized. This is a good example of how Misplaced Pages editors get it wrong. Viriditas (talk) 23:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Please show me a source which shows that Jewishness is treated differently from being a Christian or a Muslim or whatever. Most people of a Christian background in the UK are now secular, so we don't list them as British Christians. You need to provide evidence not your opinion for your assertions. ----Snowded 23:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

See Jewish ethnic divisions and ethnoreligious groups. Are you not paying attention? Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thats fine, go add some dead or clear supportabl person - Youreallycan 23:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, we've already shown, with source evidence, that Ed Miliband is considered a British Jew. What sources can you offer otherwise? I really don't think original research from Snowded and Youreallycan is a "supportabl" source. Viriditas (talk) 23:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

You haven't show that, you have show that he identifies with the ethnic background, acknowledges its profound influence etc. etc. I don't anything in your links that establish that Jewishness should be treated any differently from any other ethnic or religious identity (and would strongly object to any such attempt). Now do you have a source which says it does? And in the meantime please deal with content issues rather than commenting on editors. ----Snowded 00:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Snowded—you say "We don;t say that someone is a Christian because they were brought up in a Christian background" and you say "Please show me a source which shows that Jewishness is treated differently from being a Christian or a Muslim or whatever." Reliable sources can be understood to be knowledgeable about these matters. Reliable sources can be understood to be aware of the differences between Judaism and Christianity. And reliable sources have a reputation for fact-checking. All sources that address the question at all provide affirmation that Ed Miliband is Jewish and no source has been presented suggesting that Ed Miliband might not be Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 00:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

You have reliable sources that he has a jewish heritage which he acknowledges, you can't derive from the sources quoted above that Jewishness should be treated differently from other religions and ethnicities. As to your statements about the nature of reliable sources, I am sorry you cannot make assumptions like that. Poor research, a source is a source, you can't derive additional meaning just 'cause it suits your position. ----Snowded 05:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Snowded—should reliable sources define Jews by a definition applicable to another identity? We assume that reliable sources have done their homework in this regard. It is axiomatic that each identity has its own definition. We assume that a multitude of sources have not overlooked some aspect of the definition of a Jew and we assume they are applying the criteria pertinent to Jews. All information at Misplaced Pages is filtered through reliable sources. Why aren't there any sources saying that perhaps Ed Miliband may not be Jewish? Don't any reliable news outlets or biographers want to get the scoop on that piece of information? If there were any reason to think that Ed Miliband were not Jewish would not some source have conveyed that piece of information by now? Yet neither you nor any other editor is showing us any source suggesting that the individual might not be Jewish. I suggest that we adhere to the findings of those reliable sources that are available to us. Bus stop (talk) 11:40, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

We should always adhere to WP:RSreliable sources, but you are failing to grasp the point. The sources you quote above establish clearly that he has a Jewish heritage, but also that be is not practicing. If you have a source that says that Jewishness is somehow different to being Christian then please show it. Your speculation about the background of the sources is original research or synthesis or both. We use sources for what they say, not for what editors think they might imply. I have provided links to the relevant policies to help you out here ----Snowded 13:27, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

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