Talk:Coat of arms of the Holy See: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 05:20, 3 August 2012 editBellae artes (talk \| contribs)151 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit		Revision as of 11:13, 3 August 2012 edit undoEsoglou (talk \| contribs)31,527 edits →Requested undo of move: new sectionNext edit →
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	:I just reverted it to the red shield version, since it's the official blazon according to . ] 07:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)		:I just reverted it to the red shield version, since it's the official blazon according to . ] 07:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

			== Requested undo of move ==

			{{Requested move/dated\|Coat of arms of Vatican City}}

			] → {{no redirect\|1=Coat of arms of Vatican City}} – The illustrated coat of arms has been officially declared to be the coat-of-arms (in Italian, ''stemma'') of Vatican City State. Sources deny that it is the Holy See's coat-of-arms.

			What was presented as grounds for moving this article from "Coat of arms of the State of Vatican City" to "Coat of arms of the Holy See" was the ''heading'' "Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City" in an English-language that does ''not'' state that the two are identical. which is presumably the original, speaks of the "coat of arms" (''stemma'') of Vatican City, but with regard to the Holy See speaks instead of its ''emblema'' (emblem). Both the English translation and the original Italian give two distinct illustrations, of which it can be reasonably presumed that the first concerns the Holy See and the second the Vatican City State. The first is displayed merely as an emblem, not on a shield as a coat of arms. While the Fundamental Law of Vatican City State of 2001 (which on this point repeated that of 1929) is a reliable source of the highest order for the statement that the coat of arms illustrated on that site and described in this Misplaced Pages article is the official coat of arms ''of the state'', the source adduced gives no valid grounds for claiming that this coat of arms is also that of the Holy See - even less that Misplaced Pages should present it as ''principally'' the coat of arms of the Holy See.

			Another explicitly distinguishes between the two: "L’emblema della Santa Sede Apostolica e quello dello Stato della città del Vaticano non coincidono, essendo il primo il simbolo dell’ufficio del Romano Pontefice, capo della Chiesa Cattolica Romana, mentre il secondo è il simbolo proprio dell’entità politica e amministrativa. Anche se gli elementi caratteristici di entrambi sono le chiavi e la tiara papale (l’emblema della Santa Sede però non è inserito in uno scudo)." In English, "The emblem of the Holy Apostolic See and that of the Vatican City State are not identical, since the former is the symbol of the office of the Bishop of Rome, Head of the Roman Catholic Church, while the latter is the symbol proper to the political and administrative entity. Although the elements that characterize both are the keys and the papal tiara (the emblem of the Holy See is, however, not placed within a shield)."

			Another is more concise: "Hat der Heilige (Apostolische) Stuhl ein Wappen? Nein, aber ein Emblem" (Has the Holy (Apostolic) See a coat of arms? No, but it has an emblem). And it gives as source for its statement the German version of the very source that the mover of the Misplaced Pages article gave as grounds for making the move! It also criticizes as "heraldisch falsch" (heraldically wrong) the use of the emblem of the Holy See (without shield) on the button of the uniform of the Vatican City gendarmes: "Hier müsste das Staatswappen stehen" (Here there should be the coat of arms of the state).

			That the coat of arms illustrated is that of Vatican City is clear. That it is the coat of arms of the Holy See as claimed in the renamed article is, to say the least, disputed. The move was wrong. ] (]) 11:12, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 11:13, 3 August 2012

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Coat of arms pic in article has changed. Is it correct? Name suggests it's a vatican coa rather than the arms of the holy see. --OscarTheCat 07:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted it to the red shield version, since it's the official blazon according to here. Pmadrid 07:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested undo of move

It has been proposed in this section that Coat of arms of the Holy See be renamed and moved to Coat of arms of Vatican City.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Coat of arms of the Holy See → Coat of arms of Vatican City – The illustrated coat of arms has been officially declared to be the coat-of-arms (in Italian, stemma) of Vatican City State. Sources deny that it is the Holy See's coat-of-arms.

What was presented as grounds for moving this article from "Coat of arms of the State of Vatican City" to "Coat of arms of the Holy See" was the heading "Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City" in an English-language news service that does not state that the two are identical. The Italian text of the same news service, which is presumably the original, speaks of the "coat of arms" (stemma) of Vatican City, but with regard to the Holy See speaks instead of its emblema (emblem). Both the English translation and the original Italian give two distinct illustrations, of which it can be reasonably presumed that the first concerns the Holy See and the second the Vatican City State. The first is displayed merely as an emblem, not on a shield as a coat of arms. While the Fundamental Law of Vatican City State of 2001 (which on this point repeated that of 1929) is a reliable source of the highest order for the statement that the coat of arms illustrated on that site and described in this Misplaced Pages article is the official coat of arms of the state, the source adduced gives no valid grounds for claiming that this coat of arms is also that of the Holy See - even less that Misplaced Pages should present it as principally the coat of arms of the Holy See.

Another website explicitly distinguishes between the two: "L’emblema della Santa Sede Apostolica e quello dello Stato della città del Vaticano non coincidono, essendo il primo il simbolo dell’ufficio del Romano Pontefice, capo della Chiesa Cattolica Romana, mentre il secondo è il simbolo proprio dell’entità politica e amministrativa. Anche se gli elementi caratteristici di entrambi sono le chiavi e la tiara papale (l’emblema della Santa Sede però non è inserito in uno scudo)." In English, "The emblem of the Holy Apostolic See and that of the Vatican City State are not identical, since the former is the symbol of the office of the Bishop of Rome, Head of the Roman Catholic Church, while the latter is the symbol proper to the political and administrative entity. Although the elements that characterize both are the keys and the papal tiara (the emblem of the Holy See is, however, not placed within a shield)."

Another study is more concise: "Hat der Heilige (Apostolische) Stuhl ein Wappen? Nein, aber ein Emblem" (Has the Holy (Apostolic) See a coat of arms? No, but it has an emblem). And it gives as source for its statement the German version of the very source that the mover of the Misplaced Pages article gave as grounds for making the move! It also criticizes as "heraldisch falsch" (heraldically wrong) the use of the emblem of the Holy See (without shield) on the button of the uniform of the Vatican City gendarmes: "Hier müsste das Staatswappen stehen" (Here there should be the coat of arms of the state).

That the coat of arms illustrated is that of Vatican City is clear. That it is the coat of arms of the Holy See as claimed in the renamed article is, to say the least, disputed. The move was wrong. Esoglou (talk) 11:12, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

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