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• EdwardsBot (talk) 11:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Andreasegde

Hi Gwen, there is a dispute on The Beatles that has recently taken a nasty turn for the worse. I’m involved, as is Andreasedge (who has now been banned) and also GabeMc along with a cast of thousands. Perhaps you would take a look at administrator Coren 's page to begin with, as your opinion is needed. Thank you.--Patthedog (talk) 15:05, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree: one editor's quest to change the capital 'T' in "The Beatles" to lower case at all cost has created a firestorm of disruption and ill-will that desperately needs to be addressed. I have copied some of the examples I posted at User talk:Coren; there are plenty more if you care to do some digging:

GabeMc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Adding me to "the list" - "Mafia-esque"? What do we mean here?

• Starting a thread on Jimbo's talk page to report an admin for a 3RR that didn't go his way and then continuing to bring questionable difs to the discussion after several editors had sussed him out and told him to stop. (I agree, BTW, that the comment 'grow the fuck up' was out of line, but not the sentiment behind it).

• Any one who disagrees with Gabe is "disrupting" something , is "harassing" him or is "childish": here, and here - please read my post that he felt was "harassment".

• He has attempted to influence the mediation that he started (notice the title of the thread).

• Encouraged one of his cronies to file an SPI against me, since, as you'll see from the discussion, I favour the capital 'T', and after all, I got "caught" socking before (which I have never acknowledged). This way he could silence both myself and the IP, since we have both objected to GabeMc's behaviour.

I also wish to hell someone would reopen this SPI so that we could all know for sure who the sock is not.

Radiopathy •talk• 18:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Hey Rp. I've only taken a half hour or so to look at this, but here goes:

First, please be aware that I have a deep and lengthy background writing (never mind reading) both UK and US English and moreover, blush when I think about how much I've read on the Beatles through the years, which I didn't mean to do :) I must say, even with all the flawed and way overdone sources (I'd say some of the "musicology" I've read about their songs is so over the top), it can be a fun topic, that half-century-old tale of four highly talented, very appealing young blokes from Liverpool who way lucked out by getting along together and believing in what they were doing long enough to meet such a string of helpful, talented folks at fitting times to become one of the greatest "pop-culture" flukes of the twentieth century. I recall, some years back, strolling down a cobblestone street in a small French town and seeing this brightly lit shop window which bore a heaping stack of their 1 boxed set, shaking my head in amazement, doing quick sums and thinking something like, "Ok, this has been going on for how long? Like, forty years now?" Wonderful songs, great recordings and all but, I mean, I'm a bit startled by how some folks (more wontedly men, it seems to me) still get so stirred up by them.

Second, I've long had an overwhelming conflict of interest, let's call it, having to do with any musical topic. I should also say that since my late teens at least, I've found that many secondary sources about music tend to carry meaningful flaws, as do so many sources on politics and political histories. This doesn't mean I couldn't edit in that topic area in an NPoV, rule abiding way, only that doing so could sometimes be such a drag and time sink for me that, since my very first days of editing en.WP (so long ago and far away) until now, I've tended to shy away from any topic having to do with music or music history.

Third, like any ubber-high traffic area here, Beatles is a black hole of woe, beware to any volunteer editor who dares wade into the pull of its time-warping back-and-forth: WP:Consensus will often be flawed but it's the only way to get by. If one can't put up with that, I say, don't bother wasting your time and do something else.

Fourth, I think the answer is easy and straightforward: Capitalize the the in the Beatles only at the beginning of a sentence or in a title. My outlook on this is very strong, as near to unswayable as can be about this kind of thing. It's not happenstance that en.WP's MoS agrees with me, as do most sources (flawed as some may be) and the RfC seems headed that way, too.

Hence, speaking only for myself, I'm highly wary of taking an admin action in this topic area, other than perhaps a look at something way straightforward, like vandalism, "bright-line" 3rr and so on.

That said, here's my humble two pence: I'm not aware of any editing sanctions in the Beatles topic area, so the topic ban of User:Andreasegde seems have been done in good faith, but mostly through WP:IAR. I think Andreasedge should, in a level-headed way, unabashedly appeal the ban and say they'll let consensus have sway before going on any more syntax-fixing sprees. Please understand, I would quite agree with such a spree if consensus backs it up. Likewise, I think you two should back off, too. Aside from my thinking that you guys are more or less wholly mistaken as to use of the only definite article in English, it seems to me there's too much WP:Battle going on, which is not only boring, but an utter waste of time which only drives away other volunteer editors. I hope this helps somehow. Meanwhile, welcome to the open editing of high traffic topic areas on en.WP. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I really do appreciate your lengthy, well thought-out comments. I have already agreed to not change any 'T's during the mediation process.

My concern is User:GabeMc and some of the tactics he has used over the past several weeks, some of which are in the links in my post above. The amount of admin invovlment (an interaction ban between Gabe and andreasegde) and the amount of disruption are quite lopsided at this time. The constant filing of AN/Is, the sniping back and forth, the contradictory "straw polls" and the meddling with the mediation process itself are a real, serious problem. I understand your position that this is a content dispute, but what about WP:CANVASS, WP:NPA, WP:OWN and WP:AFG, just to name a few? I don't understand how any one could look at Gabe's contribs and not see that he has gone well beyond a simple content dispute, even where The Beatles are concerned. Radiopathy •talk• 23:36, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I understand, meanwhile, I don't feel ok about doing anything that might be taken as an admin action or warning in topic areas dealing with music. Other than dealing with straightforward stuff like 3rr and vandalism, I recuse at least for now. Moreover, my editorial (not admin) outlook on this kerfluffle is that anyone who wants to capitalize the definite article within a sentence written in English, outside of quotation marks followed by , is wholly mistaken. Please don't do that (speaking as an editor) and please (now speaking as an admin to anyone reading this), don't edit war. I'm willing to block over 3rr. Gwen Gale (talk) 02:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)