Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:18, 27 April 2012

• WP:AN
• WP:ANB

• For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
• To request review of an administrator's action or other use of advanced permissions, use Misplaced Pages:Administrative action review
• If you are new, try the Teahouse instead.
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead, follow the instructions on Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight.
• For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent.
• Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here.
• Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• If you want to challenge the closure of a request for comment, use {{RfC closure review}}

When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough.

You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search)

Template:Active editnotice

This page has an administrative backlog that requires the attention of willing administrators. Please replace this notice with {{no admin backlog}} when the backlog is cleared.

You may want to increment {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 38 as Misplaced Pages:Closure requests/Archive 37 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.

Archives

Index no archives yet (create)

This page has archives. Sections older than 2 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 4 sections are present.

• WP:CR
• WP:RFCL
• WP:ANRFC

Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Misplaced Pages discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

Move on – do not wait for someone to state the obvious. In some cases, it is appropriate to close a discussion with a clear outcome early to save our time.

Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Old
• Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion
• Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Awaiting closure
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion#Old discussions
• Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion#Old business
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers/Log
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed article splits

Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 36 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 34 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

This could really use some attention—it's been over a month. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Beeblebrox. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  05:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 103 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 83 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

would like to see what close is. seems like it was option 1 in general, possibly 1/2 for IP area. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 73 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia#RFC: Should the article state that Indigenous Australians were victims of genocide?

(Initiated 72 days ago on 8 November 2024), RFC expired weeks ago. GoodDay (talk) 21:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 57 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion has slowed on the RFC. TarnishedPath 07:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Thomas Sewell (neo-Nazi)#RfC on the Inclusion of Guard Actions and Court Findings on Motivations

(Initiated 32 days ago on 17 December 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice and the last comment was a few days ago. Can we get an independent close please. TarnishedPath 22:50, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Done. Yes you can.—S Marshall T/C 10:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  @S Marshall Thank you. TarnishedPath 10:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Estado Novo (Portugal)#RFC Should the Estado Novo be considered fascist?

(Initiated 11 days ago on 8 January 2025) RfC opened last month, and was re-opened last week, but hasn't received further discussion. Outcome clear and unlikely to change if it were to run the full 30 days. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 00:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Does this need a close? Aaron Liu (talk) 02:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would have just closed it myself, but I don't exactly feel comfortable doing so since I've responded and have a bias about how it should close. Not opposed to just letting it expire, though. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 23:23, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it should just be left to expire. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Closing the discussion. The outcome is obvious and you can let it lie unclosed.—S Marshall T/C 00:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

 Not done for reasons given above. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  04:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading

Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 18#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 30 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Category:Misplaced Pages oversighters

(Initiated 30 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 31#Category:Disambig-Class Star Trek pages

(Initiated 18 days ago on 31 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Xplicit. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  16:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 1#Category:Category-Class 20th Century Studios pages of NA-importance

(Initiated 18 days ago on 1 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Xplicit. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  16:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Redundant WPANIMATION categories

(Initiated 12 days ago on 6 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 116 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 82 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 73 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 22 days ago on 27 December 2024) Proposed merge discussion originally opened on 30 May 2024, closed on 27 October 2024, and reopened on 27 December 2024 following the closure being overturned at AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Selected Ambient Works Volume II#Proposed merge of Stone in Focus into Selected Ambient Works Volume II

(Initiated 12 days ago on 6 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; proposal is blocking GA closure czar 11:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal to supersede consensus #50

(Initiated 8 days ago on 10 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; its degenerated into silly sniping and has clearly run its course. Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Loss of more and more and more established editors and administrators.

It has come to my attention that Misplaced Pages is slowly falling apart and will eventually crash. We are losing more established editors and admins faster than we can gain. I believe something needs to be done. User talk:Fastily has been driven from Misplaced Pages due its declining mentality. Any thoughts? Forgive me is I posted this on the wrong page.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 10:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Nuke it from orbit? We are all very replaceable, despite what we may think. New editors will happily take our places. They'll just have to start all over again from scratch, I suppose. Doc talk 10:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Fastily's departure was far more complex than that. Editors & admins come & go, it's how it's worked for the 6+ years I've been here. GiantSnowman 10:35, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Editors are not light bulbs. If the reward for years of volunteer service is to leave with your feelings hurt, that's poor return and may explain the "death spiral".--Wehwalt (talk) 10:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Exactly.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 10:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

It's been in a perpetual "death spiral" since day one. The sky is always falling. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to those who see it like that. What more can be done? Just give up? That's probably not the best way to solve a problem. Not everybody always gets what they want. A "kinder, gentler" Misplaced Pages? A gold watch for your service. Doc talk 10:49, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

See this graph of the number of active editors. Once some people started looking at the encyclopedia as something to skew toward their notion of the "ethical" (or the useful?) by taking out various stuff they don't like, its decay began. Look at Jimbo Wales' talk page for the past few weeks for how thoroughly and absolutely this decay will end. It is not merely that there won't be any editors - there won't be any content judged acceptable for them to edit, and no permission for them to do so (except via reviewer) even if they could. Wnt (talk) 14:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

As can been seen from my own talkpage, I'm feeling it myself. When even your "colleagues" can't read worth shit, take un-necessary potshots, lie, and refuse to live up to their word, how do we expect anyone else to? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:50, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an unnecessarily frustrating and nasty place. Top of that list is that the bad guys so often prevail at articles and battles, or just keep wandering and hurting people as long as they are clever toknow how to mis-use the system. It would take about 6 policy changes to 70% fix that. North8000 (talk) 10:52, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I find that Misplaced Pages seems a much nicer community if you simply take some of the most dramatic noticeboards off your watchlist. Try a month's holiday from ANI, AN, AN/C etc. and you will feel better for it. The fact that these notice boards have been plagued and polluted by an off-wiki coordinated travelling circus is a problem that we should take seriously, and look at how we can improve policies to ensure obvious external manipulation for soap-boxing and lobbying does not seriously corrupt our consensus process. --Fæ (talk) 11:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Excellent advice! Until your friend is on those boards. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I thought of several when I wrote this, one returned with an Easter egg tree, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You would give P.T. Barnum a run for his money when it comes to promotion. Congratulations. Doc talk 06:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Fæ, with all due respect, I think your statement here is actually an example of the very problem to which you are alluding. Critics of Misplaced Pages are not generally popular around here, but if there is a genuine problem with off-wiki sites that needs to be addressed, you should be starting an RFC/U or requesting that ArbCom start a case, instead of constantly making snippy remarks. If there is anything to your suggestion that "our consensus process" can be disrupted by a handful of editors who frequent off-site discussion boards where the discussions are publicly viewable, I wonder how that process is disrupted by those who hang out on the many un-logged IRC channels or who contact each other through email. It must be a very fragile process indeed. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:05, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think this is the right place to hold such a discussion. Some editors may feel this way, and general consensus may say it's not the best place to be, but for us to be replaced one day, we need to give off a good impression to the new wave of editors. We need to remember that this is a project that we should contribute to in our own spare time and we are supposed to enjoy it. If you don't enjoy being here, obviously something is wrong and you either need to take a break, or leave for good. (note: this is just my own opinion and I am not suggesting anybody should GTFO or anything. MrLittleIrish 11:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Well said. This thread is going nowhere and should be closed. Doc talk 11:20, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Yep - if there's a problem, just sweep it under the rug. Just remember, when the house falls down - that rug won't matter too much now will it? — Ched :  ?  11:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Responding to Mr little irish ....or fix the problems, which starts with discussions like this. North8000 (talk) 11:29, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think this is a great discussion to have and I recommend it should stay open for at least a couple of hours. I want to here what more the community has to say. I feel for Fastily. The point I opened this discussion is because of mainly civility issues editors are getting emotionally hurt and it would make perfect sense why they would no longer want to edit it. It's amazing to see how little things that could be easily fixed and it's blown way out of proportion here.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 11:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Responding to North8000. The problem is people (not naming a single editor, new or old) are contributing here like it's a job. This is supposed to be an enjoyment for ourselves and the general public looking for information. The project should not cause stress. Yes, we all disagree every now and again, but over time, the amount of petty arguments that have developed are beyond me. If you're not having fun, you're here for the wrong reasons. This is not a job. MrLittleIrish 11:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying that because it's not a job and editors are free to leave, that folks should not try to recognize and fix problems? That is contrary to how volunteer organizations and volunteer everythings succeed. And contrary to what got Misplaced Pages to where it is today

For those who feel that the people picture is irrelevant, look at the end result The end result is that 90% of articles are 90% in good shape, 10% of it (including near every article on a contentious topic) is an absolute uninformative mess, and that it has plateaued out regarding fixing those areas. You don't have to argue the straw man of whether or not the sky is falling to simply understand that it has some serious problems that require fixing. North8000 (talk) 11:42, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Going off of what you're saying, who would want to edit this place of they got harassed for every little thing they do? You notion the fact that we are all replaceable which sounds so horrifying wrong in so many ways. It would say to indicate no one cares about each in the first place and if person disappears from the project, another will replace them and all is good. This brings me to my second point is the editor that will replace this established editor will most of e time have zero experience. That statement you made would be grounds to push me from Misplaced Pages because you basically reinforced the fact that we don't care for each other or support each other.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 11:54, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break -losing editors

I agree, those are very handsome lampshades. What kind of leather did you say they were made of again?--Wehwalt (talk) 11:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I think I know what you're getting at, but have no idea why. Doc talk 11:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that the articles are not worth the human cost.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

That's what I thought. Not a good metaphor. There is no "human cost" on this project compared to what you're alluding to. Seriously. Doc talk 12:03, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

. And no, there is no organized campaign to murder. That don't make what goes on here trivial, or right.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:07, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x3Most of Misplaced Pages editors are human with about 45% of them vandals where about 50% turn to good faith editing. A portion of those editors work really hard and establishes good credit and becomes well known among the community. Here comes this asshole of a new editor finds a minor mistake this user made blows it up into a major issue when it really isn't and posts it on ANI and there goes this well established user's credit. What's more, this manipulative user manages to turn the ANI discussion in his favor and really discredits the established editor. Imagine how that editor feels right now.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 12:24, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

How do you determine these numbers? My impression is just the opposite: 10% are in good shape, 80% are two-line stubs (which is probably an exaggeration, but this is my imrpression anyway), and 10% are an absolute uninformative mess. Has any research been done.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking of built articles, I was sort of ignoring stubs, so, with that context on mine, we may both be right.North8000 (talk) 11:52, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

If this isn't the right place, what is the right place? I agree with Ched, sweeping it under the rug won't make it go away. --SPhilbrick(Talk) 11:49, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

FFS - I wasn't suggesting silencing anyone. Let's analyze all the shortcomings of the project in this thread. Doc talk 11:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x3All due respect Mr. Little irish, and indeed you do bring a very relevant topic to the table - but I offer you this. MANY people take this project VERY seriously. They have invested untold hours, days, weeks .. no YEARS into providing the very best they could. When a new users walks in, and can call someone with 5 or 10 years tenure onto the carpet to be chastised for either a mistake - or some misunderstanding - then yes, it's no longer fun. Since we are on an admin. board, and discussing this because of an admin. I'll offer this. Truly good admins. do not always consider this fun. Truely good admins. do not want to block. Truely good admins. take every step they can to protect the project first. Trulely good admins. actually care about the editors. EVEN the ones that find fault with at every chance they get. What is the result. Civility policy my blue butt. That is a tool that manipulative people play to goad honest hard working people into getting sanctions. Swap out the civility policy for one of honesty, integrity, and consistency ... and maybe we could turn this 500 mph train-wreck that's headed for a cliff around. Just IMHO. — Ched :  ?  11:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Right on, Ched. A VOA, that's one thing, but every other block (or even unblock--I had a big one not too long ago) is agonizing to some extent. At the time of my RfA some whippersnapper (actually the latest incarnation of a troll, I think) stirred up the shit pot, and got another hot-headed (more experienced) editor involved in a back and forth--and I was supposed to hypothetically decided in a test question on my RfA. I was unwilling to block though I did not approve of the disruptor's edits. So, I get two "opposes"--one from each one--and I guess I was lucky that it didn't spread more. But that's the kind of thing that easily happens: the pot gets stirred, and every jackass you ever offended gets in on it. There's two in this very thread who have gotten on my case and who no doubt will pounce next time I get dragged to the board, but I think I can take the project seriously enough to not take that so seriously, as contradictory as it may sound. Drmies (talk) 16:40, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This is an issue that needs to be talked about. I believe it's because or civility policies are under enforced and ridiculous ANI threads about such minuscule things that are blown way out of proportion. If you in disagreement don't see how that hurts an editor then I don't know what will. Sweeping it under the rug won't make it go away but tackling the problem will so, I propose we tackle this problem.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 12:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, for some people, their idea of fun includes: ganging up, rumours, attacks, vandalism, treating others like shit - and while they're likely to do that sometimes in real life, it's even easier in the online world as they never have to face up to it. When that concept of fun interferes with the neurotypical meaning of fun, there's problems (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

One important step in tackling a problem is a clear articulation of the problem. I'm reading some heartfelt concerns, but if an outsider asked me to summarize the problem, and cite examples, I wouldn't be able to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sphilbrick (talk • contribs) 12:11, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @cyber - But that's the thing Cyber. "Civility" is such a subjective thing. BY POLICY, editor A can say "I feel it was a mistake for you to waste your efforts on such an article which is clearly worthless. (acceptable under policy as writen) .. editor B responds: "Kiss my royal ass" BZZZZ ... wrong answer. And because people are demanding "civility" - a 25 year old admin. trying to do what he thinks is right ends up telling a 60 year old scholar to go sit in the naughty corner. Do you really think that's gonna work so well? — Ched :  ?  12:13, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

(Responding to the unsigned comment). Well, the problem is that the environment is too aggressive here, and contributors and especially admins wear out very quickly. In many cases, nobody replaces them, in other cases, the replacement is much less qualified than the outgoing manpower. This the editor retention problem which is being discussed for years.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:16, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)WP:CIVILITY is no doubt a dynamic concept and I'm sure that all of us in this discussion known the general picture of civility and most of the admins know when the line of civility is crossed.

I wouldn't focus just on civility. For me it is frustration realizing that it is impossible to fix the articles that most need fixing....contentious articles. And that the problem is easily 70% fixed by tweaking some policies, but that such is unlikely to ever be accomplished. North8000 (talk) 12:20, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Plus obvious uncivil behavior is easily reigned in. Once the nasty person has mastered wikilawyering, they become near-invincible and impossible to reign in. North8000 (talk) 12:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

It's not only about civility. Making the project welcoming to Randy in Boise makes it unattractive to lots of other people. Tom Harrison 12:34, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

(ec) What's obvious to you and I might not be obvious to others. See, it'd be so much simpler if we could block for simple douchebaggery - that would cover sketchy and deceptive editing as well as personal conduct. But with a decade of inertia, it's harder and harder to shift policies in ways that might be obviously beneficial (there's that word again). It's a huge project, there should be room for everyone who's willing to put in the work and the time into discussion - but it doesn't always work that way, and we need to fix that. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 12:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Also @Cyber - I think you make some very very good points here. And indeed civility is not the only issue. A thread like this begins and 30 people rush to say their piece because it's been on their mind for ages - but it all goes down so quick that few actually read the entire thing. And who said what first? Who is talking to who? There is often a rush to judgment that has to be revisited - and rehashed over and over again. There's quantity vs. quality. Privacy vs. transparentcy. Admins. bickering amongst themselves is also not a good thing. It doesn't provide a unified and consistant view - and that would confuse anyone. (but anything we say has to be in front of everyone - we have no private room to discuss things.) But perhaps it's the age of the project too. There are some editors here that have been here for years now. They know each other, and what to expect from each other. But each new person is an unknown. People get paranoid and wonder ... is that so-and-so with a new name? Small disagreements fester and become long term grudges until the pot boils over. People have come to know each other and broken off into their own little cabals. Some that struggle for some percieved power, when at the end of the day - it's one individual behind a keyboard. That can get lonely, and it's easy to think "I'm all by myself, how can I ever deal with them?" The closest thing we have to an "authority" is Arbcom. And yet they are just volunteers too. And who tells them when they are right and wrong? Yep, there's lots to work through if this project is going to survive, and I do hope it survives. — Ched :  ?  12:59, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• True. If I had to guess how much longer Misplaced Pages would survive, I'd give it 5-10 years. After that Misplaced Pages will be total chaos. I'm going to head over to village pump in hopes of fixing some of these issues.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 13:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• There's a difficulty in distinguishing between natural turnover and a death spiral. Misplaced Pages has been in decline for the past few years, the rate of new anything (articles, editors, admins, edits) have declined. The foundation is aware of this and is working to increase editor numbers through twee methods, be it wikilove or a friendly teahouse helpdesk. It's easy to see friends leave and draw the conclusion that the good editors are leaving, but in this very thread we have editors who've been here 6 years, and editors who've been here for just one. Editors who have tens of thousands of edits and others who have a few hundred. What am I saying? People come, people stay, people go. It's worth worrying about trends, but not individual cases. It is always sad when an editor leaves, especially when one who has put so much in, but if they push through the demoralised zone, they'll end up hating wikipedia, and that's not good. I know I'll leave one day, I'll probably do it quietly - there's only so much one person can do. Worm · (talk) 13:13, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

  If you have me in mind as an example of an editor who is around for a year, I changed the account last year, but was editing since early 2007.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:34, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

  I think my point still stands either way, indeed the original poster hasn't been here a year... Worm · (talk) 13:38, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• I would hate to see you go and hate it more if you didn't at least tell me. If you were to leave you would killing a big part of WP:ADOPT and Misplaced Pages.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 13:21, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Ha, that's very kind of you to say, but misses my point. I'd say no one here is essential, least of all me - but no fear, I'm not near burnout yet! Worm · (talk) 13:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• We all come and go that's true but, we go when an editor just as established replaces us. Now we go because we burn out too quickly and those that replace us, are not experienced enough yet. There is no editor experienced enough yet to replace you when you burn out.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 14:14, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Coming back, "full circle" to the subject that was being discussed. Is there any empirical evidence that the project is in decline? The loss of any one contributor can be seen as problematic but is it indicative of any overall trend? or simply reflective of the eventual cycle of burnout? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC).

You know, this sort of sky-is-falling comment happens all the time, almost always in response to a resignation manifesto from a friend or being on the receiving end of some rudeness. The editor then assumes that because one person leaves, that we have an overall problem. I wonder whether any of you would be interested in the actual facts, which are these:

As you can see, it's pretty much steady. Notice, please, that these are all the kind of "established editors" that the OP is concerned about: not people who made their fifth-ever or 100th-ever edit that month, but people who made five edits or 100 edits just during that month. Overall, I think there's still a minor downward trend, but it's minor: it goes up one or two percent this month, and maybe down one or two or three percent the next. (There is a non-trivial seasonal pattern as well.)

I admit that this is significantly fewer active editors than we had five years ago—back when vandalism had to be reverted by hand (anyone else remember those pre-Cluebot days?), back before Facebook provided an outlet for a certain class of users, back when Windows Vista was new, back when our American university students were still in middle school—but that was a long time ago. When you look at the recent past, our editor base has pretty much achieved an equilibrium. WhatamIdoing (talk) 13:49, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks WhatamIdoing, but I think (/hope!) you have your columns and row labels mixed up. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 13:52, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I really hope you've got that table the wrong way around ... --Dirk Beetstra 13:53, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I did; I've fixed it. (Let's not think about how many edit conflicts I've had today...) WhatamIdoing (talk) 13:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Note, that number is, within error margins, stable. Could you add the number of articles-to-maintain to those numbers? Total number of edits per minute? How many of these are article-edits? How many of the edits-per-minute pertain mainspace? --Dirk Beetstra 14:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know where to get all of those numbers, but a quick search suggests that (for those two months) we saw approximately a 10% increase in the total number of articles, a 10% decrease in the number of new articles created, and a 10% decrease in the number of edits made (to any page, including by bots and unregistered users). Someone else may be able to find the precise numbers that you'd like. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Anyways, that we are talking about negative spirals may be a better indication that people are not generally happy with Misplaced Pages than the real numbers are. --Dirk Beetstra 13:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The point what I am trying to make here is that experienced editors are retiring way before they plan to because of the problems we are facing here and the number may say one thing about our editors but it doesn't talk about their experience in my opinion.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 14:14, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

There's lots of charts here, which do show that the project has dropped in the past 4 years, even if there's not an overall decline. Active admins have declined, per the graph on the right, as has the rate of recruitment of new ones. Article growth has dropped, per the graph one the left. There's definitely a decline, and like I say, it's something that the foundation is looking at. I personally don't see it as a "death spiral" just yet, but it could get that way. Who knows? Worm · (talk) 13:59, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

My own view (for what it's worth) is that the reason we've seen a slow-down is not anything to do with any bad atmosphere or animosity among Misplaced Pages editors, but simply a transition from start-up to steady-state. The encyclopaedia will never be complete, but studies show Misplaced Pages is already far more comprehensive in its breadth and depth of content than any traditional encyclopaedia. Essentially we've taken all the easy pickings and it's now much harder to find reliable content on subject matter that the typical editor is interested in that hasn't already been added to the project. The subjects that are left tend to be those that require specific expertise or a good deal of research, which leads editors to a choice of (a) leaving or taking a break, (b) putting in quite a bit more effort, (c) heading to an article they perceive as somewhat biased and trying to neutralise it. Those that have chosen option (c) obviously get into conflicts as a result and unsurprisingly don't like the grief it creates, but that's an indication that the project is alive and well, far from dying a death. waggers (talk) 14:00, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Not true. From April 12 to April 16, I ran across the following notable topics which need articles just in the course of ordinary editing and Refdesk answering:

• Phytobenzoar
• Antinutritive
• Gastrectasia
• Ascorbic acid oxidase
• Bangladesh National Women Lawyers' Association
• Centre for Equality and Inclusion
• Brodatz Texture

The reason why we don't see the incompleteness is that some people make a point of taking out every redlink because they think it "looks bad" to admit we don't cover everything in the world. Wnt (talk) 14:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Three of the above had articles already; I added the redirects. Phytobezoar is partially covered in bezoar but I will write an article on it specifically. I have a free picture somewhere if I can find it -- Samir 06:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Gastrectasia as defined as distension of the stomach is best dealt with on Wiktionary as it is little more than a dicdef, but I've redirected to gastric antral vascular ectasia as an accepted alternative name for GAVE. -- Samir 07:12, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

D'oh! I should have spotted the bezoar misspelling and searched better for articles to redirect to. Still, we haven't run out of work to do. Thanks for doing some of it! Wnt (talk) 19:46, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The way that I would describe it, in terms of the end effect on the project, is that, due to solvable problems, the project has plateaued out at a level which at a much lower level than what it realistically attainable. North8000 (talk) 14:17, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

As with many of the others I also feel that Misplaced Pages is in rapid decline. Just in the last few months we have lost more than a dozen prolific editors and more leave every day. The bottom line is that Misplaced Pages is not a fun and friendly place to edit. There is too much drama, too many battles being fought over petty things, the horrors of the admin process are legendary, and the list goes on. Misplaced Pages was founded on some good principles but as time goes on those principles are being twisted and distorted. Non administrators are looked at as being non trustworthy, administrators act as though they are infallible. We pick and choose when to and not to enforce policy based on whether its our friend or not. Regardless of what the numbers show Misplaced Pages is in a downward spiral and its almost to the point were it won't be stoppable. We need to start working together and stop fighting, the teahouse is a joke, if you are a new user you don't even know its there. If we want to be serious about its use it should be linked from the left hand links or the main page. Same with the article creation process. Having them buried in the bowels of the pedia don't do us any good. 138.162.8.58 (talk) 14:26, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Users come and go - the wheels are still going round - its absolutely normal. - let the good , and the not so good, go in peace, and welcome the new. Youreallycan 16:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Is anybody willing (and having the stats) and add the numbers of GAs, FAs, and FLs in the left graph? This would actually show if we improve the quality of the articles (which is only counting). mabdul 16:24, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I hope this is just one of those glitchy patches. There are so many things which can add up to create problems, and there are so many different types of people in here, and so many ways of looking at things. BUT ... the biggest thing is that Wikipedians are, by and large, passionate people. We're intense. We're the kind of people who would probably rather stay in and edit than go out and party. And we lack cues, in print, that would help us resolve things face-to-face. (And some of us, like myself, are on the autism-spectrum and don't do so well picking up on real-life cues, and we tend to interpret things slightly differently from neurotypicals.) Almost everything that goes wrong in here seems to stem, in one way or another, from each side not really "seeing" what the "other side" is seeing. Simple misunderstandings and misconstructions; and they get blown up into mega-dramahz conflicts. I wish I had a magic wand! The thing which would make the biggest difference would be if we could internalize a kinder approach. Not "letter of the law civility", because some people have it down pat how to be bloody unkind and deliberately hurtful-with-malice-aforethought with never a naughty word. It has to be an internal paradigm shift, towards genuine kindness. Pesky (talk) 16:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

@Mabdul I wouldn't bother collecting stats on the numbers of FAs etc as an indicator of quality. A few years ago you could get an FA without using inline citation. The FA standard today is significantly different to the FA standard of our early years - plenty of our early FAs have been delisted despite being better now than when they went became FAs. Better indications of quality would include the average speed with which we revert vandalism and the number of typos on the pedia per thousand words. I think you'll find both are improving, it is definitely harder to find certain typos now than it once was. Our best indications of improving quality remain the serious studies into our quality relative to other information sources - such studies are usually quite encouraging. ϢereSpielChequers 19:43, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Two thing I see repeated above in essentially every post: There is a perceived (real or imaginary) editor retention problem, and there is a civility issue around the community at large. However, aside from the occasional editor who fades into the night like a spent star, writing a manifesto about their experiences (as Fastily has done, leading to this discussion), is there anything that correlates editor retention to civility? How many editors do we lose because their lives change, because they become tired of writing, or because they've added all they feel they can to their topics of interest? I'm certain we lose far more editors to life than to inside factors. Another thought is the effects the social networking revolution have had on our community, and this civility issue. As Misplaced Pages has grown, so has the internet as a communication medium. In the last few years, social networking has made chatting on the web the preference over instant messenging programs. Could this contribute to editors spending more time on drama/talk pages and less on actually writing articles? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 16:26, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

  The reasons why editors leave the project need to be investigated and I believe there were at least attempts (not mine) to do this, though I would not be able to point out to any conclusions right now. I am not sure incivility plays such a minor role. My personal experience was that I had to leave another WMF project for good because of incivility.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I think what the problem (if that is what it can be called) is not people quitting Misplaced Pages on a whim because of some witch-hunt as a few editors have classified it as. It is more a point of people lacking knowledge and understanding in how to edit properly, and/or learning from any erroneous edits that may occur. In all due respect, as someone who is non-admin, I find the admin team are here to help, assist, and provide advice on the editing protocols of Misplaced Pages as a whole. If users are unable to comprehend that advice in a constructive manner, then it is a fault of those people, not a fault of the admin team. At the end of the day, everyone is human, and prone to making mistakes. But if those people aren't being encouraged to learn from mistakes, and rectify them accordingly, then that too is the fault of the individuals, not the fault of the people willing to help. I've made mistakes on here in the past, and if it wasn't for advice from admin or other more knowledgeable users, then I'd probably be still making the same silly mistakes. Whenever I come across someone who has made a mistake, I encourage them to learn from them, by providing assistance, or pointing them into the right direction by means of procedural links or simplified knowledge based on my own learnings. Yes, people get blocked and whatnot, but those blocks are only issued because A) the user is crusading into a childish battle, rather than reading the advice being given; or B) they had listened to the advice, but decided to ignore it for whatever reasons. The world and its people within it are always evolving, as is Misplaced Pages and its editorial team. People come, people go; but if you wish to slow down the number of people going, and maintain the number of people staying, then perhaps encourage users to learn from mistakes, rather than shoot them down for making them. Wesley☀Mouse 16:38, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I know of about 15 editors who got chased away by nastiness, plus another ~5 who were about to leave who I sort of mentored to stay. All of these were newer editors, (some of them experts in their field) so it's not exactly applicable to this discussion. But I can tell you that while ALL 20 were due to nastiness, NONE were due to simple/blatant incivility. About 1/2 were primarily sincere efforts to correct wiki-errors that the newbie made, but sort of teaching them the wiki-system by beating them with a baseball bat. The other half were pissing wars where the experienced person knows how to safely conduct agression and pissing wars (and win) via wikilawyering. North8000 (talk) 17:02, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Waggers is right on, the decline of article edits are because Wiki is much more established than it was when I first entered the project in 2005. And with established editors leaving, they claimed all the time (including myself) that they are leaving because of drama or whatever the situation is and they almost always come back eventually, some within a day. Only a small handful of established editors has left the project because of "drama" and so on and that's sadly includes are several of our best article writers. A few others left the project because of harassment off-wiki which it is tragic. But at least 90% of established editors who stopped editing was because they got a job, relocated, got married, children, college and so forth and it was a gradual reduction until they lost interest. Secret 17:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Lots of editors "leave" for different Wikimedia projects as well, mostly alternative language versions of Misplaced Pages. At some point in the future, I'm betting that there will be some sort of merger of the different language Misplaced Pages's into a single project which will have improved multilingual tools available. What's being used on Meta, Commons, and MediaWiki now is a start, but I doubt that it'll scale well to Misplaced Pages's size. But the fact that something already exists just goes to show, that's the path Misplaced Pages is likely headed towards.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 17:26, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Once or twice a year a thread begins saying that editors are leaving Misplaced Pages in droves and a lot of data is presented. The problem with data is that nobody ever seems to know how to read it or understand context or the bigger picture, and it results in misguided breaching experiments like WP:NEWT. Established editors leave from time to time, some of it is legit in that they're bored or burned out or feel the project has changed too much. Others are just DIVAS who will be back in a few days when the requisite number of people have begged them on their talk page to reconsider. Lots of established editors get tired of their identity and all the drama, typecasting and stress an extended presence can bring, they "retire" and then a short time later create a new account as per WP:CLEANSTART. Worrying about whether Misplaced Pages will be here or not is pointless and out of our hands for the most part. Misplaced Pages is just a website, and many other websites have come and gone, some of them better than Misplaced Pages. That's life. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:27, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
• Our core of active editors has dipped but now seems to have stabilised. Editing levels per day are less than the peak, but maybe not when you factor in the number of vandalisms and vandalism reversions that are not needed because of the edit filters. Our number of active admins has fallen by more than a quarter from peak, but seems to have stabilised in the 730-750 region, however it has only done so because the existing admins are staying around so long. RFA's drought has continued to worsen the first quarter of 2012 saw 5 new admins, the worst result since 2002. So at some point we will have to reform or replace RFA. More importantly, the vast majority of new editors do not stay, with only a tiny proportion joining the active community. The problems we found in 2009 with WP:NEWT are still here, lots of newby biting, incorrect deletion tags and assuming of bad faith. I suspect the ratio of {{fact}} tagging to simply reverting unsourced edits has continued to drift towards a de-facto requirement that all additions be sourced. Part of this is almost certainly due to the disconnect between our written and unwritten rules. The fifth pillar warning "all of your contributions can and will be mercilessly edited" might almost be rephrased "your initial contributions will probably be reverted". Part is I suspect down to the drift from collaborative editing to template bombing, a drift that the new Article Feedback tool is likely to exacerbate. Perhaps the time has come to fork EN Misplaced Pages, in one fork implement WP:ACTRIAL, and also extend sticky prod to all unsourced articles. In the other replace the maintenance templates with hidden categories, and introduce a 24 hour period of grace for new articles when the only speedy tags that can be applied are the badfaith ones such G3, G11, G12 and G10. If the Foundation hosted both forks within the SUL it would be easy to migrate stuff between them. ϢereSpielChequers 00:09, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Seems pretty impractical, as the drift between the version would increase as time went on, and reintegrating them afterwards would be a total nightmare. Better to use another wiki - like Simple English - as a test bed and compare the changes within each wiki. or something. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:41, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• I find something that needs to be written about all the time both in old articles and new. So, I don't know why people leave but they should if they do not enjoy it. And thank you administrators for your time. I guess that does not get said enough. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Cyberpower, you've been an active editor for what, six or seven months? Let me point out something that's obvious to people with ten times your history on the English Misplaced Pages, before you get too worried about editors who "are retiring way before they plan to": there is a dramatic gap between highly experienced editors saying that they are leaving the English Misplaced Pages (a popular pastime) and these editors actually leaving the English Misplaced Pages. In fact, although I've seen a lot of resignation manifestos over the last few years, I can't think of a single one offhand that actually result in a zero-edit retirement rather than (at the very most) a wikibreak of a few months. Presumably there are some, particularly among editors whose return is likely to be met with a block, but most self-identified retirees don't even manage to go an entire week without editing. (I do know people who have left, but none that first posted a long message about why they were leaving.)

NB I say this purely as a general statement, not about any specific case. But if I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about this. In the meantime, go read meatball:GoodBye. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:35, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

With regards to RFA, I'll note that I've considered it and may not even be opposed to pursuing it, but I'm frankly not comfortable with the idea of self-nominating for a process that's sure to result in (unintentionally or otherwise) some confrontation with perhaps negligible gains both for myself and the project. Perhaps more importantly, I can't see how my participation in the project would significantly benefit from my having Admin Mojo, though if others have ideas I certainly wouldn't be opposed to hearing them...perhaps there may be uses for my approach to this project that I have not considered. Alternately, perhaps there could be (or is?) a listing of areas of Misplaced Pages where more administrative help is desired, so that individuals who might be willing to go through the RFA process could also have some idea of where help is needed?

In general though, I would ask...if the project continues to produce and maintain quality articles, then does the number of active editors or admins particularly matter? I'd rather see 500 active editors with 10 million quality articles, than 3 million active editors with 500 quality articles. My point is that there seems to be a theory that increasing the number of active editors/admins will increase the quality of the project overall; I'm not convinced that that's true, at least at this point in the project's development. Doniago (talk) 14:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a lot of responses have been to the effect of "the sky isn't falling, therefore there is no problem regarding losing editors". This is logically unsound, it is missing the whole middle ground which is: There IS a problem worth looking at and improving, and no the sky isn't falling. North8000 (talk) 14:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you North8000. I think there is a serious problem with editors leaving that needs to be addressed but it isn't quite yet at the point were Misplaced Pages is going to go under because of it. Wether that happens sooner or later is irrelevant, at some point, if we don't change some things, it will happen and simply turning our backs to it isn't going to help. Just look at the WikiProjects. There used to be a lot more active ones and now they are all dying off, that seems to me to be an indication of some problem. I also think that the numbers above are a bit misleading. They use editors with 5 edits but it doesn't say if those edits are vandalism, socks or valid edits. Why don't we look at the numbers of editors who made say 100 edits. This is low enough that it should have a significant number of users and high enough that it would wash out any vandals or socks most likely. It will also skip over the editors who only do a handful of edits and leave. It might also be interesting to see trends of edits in the different namespaces. Are they going up in nonarticle (Misplaced Pages, User, USer talk, Etc.) but down in articles space? Are they going up in talk spaces? Just showing the number of edits, IMO, does not give us an accurate picture of the problem. Kumioko (talk) 14:26, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, "losing editors" may be only one of many impacts from the causal issues, and only one of the many things that would get nicer if we fixed some of the causal issues. North8000 (talk) 20:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Why don't we look at the numbers of editors who made say 100 edits.

Kumioko, we did exactly that, as you'd know if you scrolled up to the table reporting editor activity. Between the end of 2010 and 2011, the number of editors making >100 edits per month went up (by 0.3%, a statistically insignificant amount) . WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:12, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

The project is constantly renewing itself, continously evolving. It won't last forever, but it's been around for 11 yrs & counting. Therefore, nothing to worry about. GoodDay (talk) 04:45, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Semi-arbitrary break 2 - Losing Editors

If all article editing ceased tonight, how long would you guys go on talking about it at the noticeboards? See, guys? We'll never die! Someguy1221 (talk) 06:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

For me, personally (but then that's just me!), whether or not the encyclopedia is sustainable with a massive drop in editors (if there were such a drop) isn't as important as the principle of having left n-amount of hurt and wounded people crawling off to lick their wounds. That's just inhumane, and I wish I could think of a better way to address it. When I was doing a lot of new page patrol I pretty-much-as-standard left an easily-pasted lump of hints and tips (with a good section on referencing, courtesy of Chzz) on the talk page of every newbie or nearly-newbie I encountered. Mind you, I was working at the "cold" end of the backlog (new pages that had survived 20 - 30 days, so no quick-zap vandalism). I'm wondering whether something kinda-automated, to do exactly the same thing, could be added to Twinkle's repertoire. Mine was more personal than any of the standard welcome templates, but applicable to pretty much every new editor.

I got a thankyou message on 17 April for the tips I left on a talk page last October; I've also had messages from other people who've seen them on someone else's talk page and found them useful. In fact, leaving those spiels of stuff on newbies' talk pages may be the single most valuable contribution I've made to the 'pedia! Is something like adding that stuff as a Twinkle option feasible? It would make it so easy for people to do; it takes a few seconds. And I think that actual words on the talk page are more likely to be read than clickable links. Pesky (talk) 06:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's suggesting (at least, I hope they're not) that it's acceptable to drive editors away through incivility or such, but I haven't seen anything conclusively demonstrating that any decrease in editors or adminship is due to preventable situations either. And if the departing admin/editor "gave as good as they got", I'm not sure it's legitimate to say that they're leaving due to something that could have been avoided. I don't imagine WP has much in the way of an exit interview process for departing editors. Doniago (talk) 19:08, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

@Pesky. Friendly used to be the tool for adding welcome messages, but it has now been folded into Twinkle - and yes Twinkle does have dropdown menus for welcomes to newbies. ϢereSpielChequers 19:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

(Comment without having read any of the above very closely) It's concerning that the number of active editors has been falling while, if I remember correctly, the number of readers has been increasing. To a large extent this reflects the fact that Misplaced Pages is now largely past its 'build' phase, and is regarded as being somehow part of the establishment and so is unavoidable - after all, the goal has been to develop a credible Encyclopedia. That said, there's still tons of scope to improve existing articles and develop new ones, and the - probably correct - perception that Misplaced Pages is now hard to get established in is a problem. Harassment of established editors (many of whom are admins) is also a problem, though I'm not convinced that it's getting worse. It's certianly not confined to Misplaced Pages: boorish behaviour is common on many websites. I'd like to see a drive to reduce the amount of 'red tape' in guidelines and policies and replace them with simpler statements of the expectations for editors. However, all editors can contribute to a nicer and more productive environment by remembering their manners and complementing good work (glib, but often forgotten - including by me). Nick-D (talk) 23:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

@NickD who said:"I'd like to see a drive to reduce the amount of 'red tape' in guidelines and policies and replace them with simpler statements of the expectations for editors." I couldnt agree more with you. Caden 00:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I actually plowed through this very long topic, and I thought I'd make it longer. I don't know where all the numbers come from and I find statistics misleading, so I have little confidence in them. The phrase "death spiral" automatically sets up red flags for me as melodrama. I think we should focus on the following things: (1) quality of editors and admins, not quantity; (2) quality of articles, not quantity; (3) more professionalism in our interaction. Personally, I've been tempted to leave Misplaced Pages at times because of the contentiousness, the lack of civility, and the obsession with trivia (was someone born on October 8 or October 9?) leading to interminable discussions, but I've found that the best method is to stop participating in the stressful discussion, whether it be on a noticeboard or about an article (someone else suggested a variation of this - Fae? - stop watching pages that upset you - I've done that, too). Another problem is we really don't do enough to support each other. Too much argument. We don't say enough that we agree with someone, we just comment when we disagree; we don't support others enough when they are unjustly attacked, we let it go, even if we think it's unjust. I have more to say, but in an effort to keep this of reasonable length, I'll stop.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:59, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree. However, when I started this post, I meant that we were losing more editors that produce quality content than we are gaining. If you need me notify me on my talk page. I'm going back to me wikibreak.—cyberpower _{Temporarily Online} 19:06, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not delicate, I don't mind getting bruised if there's good to be done. So/but for me the most stressful thing (and a very stressful thing) is realizing that many things are unfixable / hopeless because the policies are written such that they so easily and frequently mis-used contrary to their intended purpose. In short, because wiki-lawyering works and wins. And once a miscreant masters it, they can beat people up with immunity. North8000 (talk) 20:02, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Causes of editor loss

Strictly enforcing WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, and WP:EQ would go a long way in retaining editors. Who wants to volunteer for something when you are being treated poorly? 140.247.141.165 (talk) 22:38, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that overly strict enforcement would likely be used in editing disputes as a bludgeon against editors when the editor has expressed slightly intemperant comment out of frustration. Having to constantly take pains to express everything in the most civil of terms lest a minor breach of etiquette get you punished would drive away editors just as quickly or more so as the current civility issues do. Monty₈₄₅ 22:54, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with this; civility crusaders create the same toxic environment that serially abusive editors do. It goes both ways. On the one hand, having a lawless, caustic, Youtube-comments-section style free-for-all is sure to drive people away. But on the other hand, who wants to stick around when you have to sanitise your every word for fear of getting sanctioned for a slightly snippy phrasing? You can't "strictly enforce" a policy to be civil and unoffensive. That in and of itself creates hostility. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I think you've nailed it. Viriditas (talk) 04:10, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Agreed.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 05:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I tend to agree with the OP, to expand on it a bit, however, the issue is not the occasional impertenent comment, it is people who have established that they have no desire to treat any other editors with respect, and who act with a sense of entitlement to do so merely because they have a few featured articles under their belt. It's not individual, isolated acts of incivility that need to be stopped, we can let the occasional outburst slide with no great problem. It is people who have established that they have no intention of abiding by the basic rules of decency and civility, no matter what, that we need to eliminate, as they poison the editing environment. --Jayron32 23:06, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

You're living in some kind of a make-believe world. For instance, can you name even one editor who has "established that they have no desire to treat any other editors with respect"? Malleus Fatuorum 04:33, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, that may have been a bit of hyperbole. You are correct that no editor treats all people as such, but when conflicts arise, the difference is in how an editor treats others in the context of that conflict. Even in emotionally charged conflicts, all editors should be held to standards of decorum and civility, instead of personalizing and becoming insulting towards those with whom they have disagreements. We need to make clear that while a single isolated outburst of rudeness shouldn't be sanctioned, patterns of aggessive, incivil, or rude behavior should. When an editor frequently and over a period of time, shows that in multiple conflicts they often resort to insults, personal attacks, and other immature, incivil behavior, it needs to be dealt with, and dealt with harsher than it is now. That is, we shouldn't block an editor for the first time they call someone a rude name or tell someone to fuck off, but when such behavior becomes repeated and a regular manner in which an editor interacts with people they disagree with, again, when it becomes a pattern of behavior, then it needs to be stopped. We can forgive and forget over the individual outburst, but when it becomes a repeated occurance for an editor to treat those they disagree with aggressively or rudely, to the point of insult, it needs to be dealt with. --Jayron32 14:09, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

But once again it comes down to what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. There's lots of high fallutin' talk about administrators being held to higher standards than regular editors, but the truth is that they're not even held to the same standards. I could very easily name you several administrators who were they not administrators would have even longer block logs than they already have. I won't though, for to do so would undoubtedly be considered a "personal attack", but a look through my contributions may provide a few clues. Malleus Fatuorum 15:22, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

And as a supplementary question, do you think it's acceptable for any administrator to have multiple blocks for incivility? Malleus Fatuorum 15:24, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

That's an interesting question in and of itself, but I'm not sure that it's directly related to the subject that started this thread, which seems to me to be dealing with civility "enforcement" in general. On that topic, I think that the difference of opinion comes down to individual editor's priorities or focus. If the focus is on "policing" (as it usually seems to be on, for example, AN/I), then Jayron32's view that "all editors should be held to standards of decorum and civility" seems to dominate. If the focus is on content itself (as in a content dispute taking place on an article talk page or a User talk page), then Monty845's view that "overly strict enforcement editing disputes as a bludgeon against editors" seems to dominate. I think that where Malleus is coming to this discussion from is, essentially, having been caught between those two paradigms and trying to deal with it. The real problem here is that this push-pull goes on all the time, and it's something that many established editors are quite familiar with. I know that I've personally learned when to simply walk away for a content dispute, because as soon as any content dispute ends up on AN/I (or just about any other dispute resolution venue) then someone is getting smacked around and likely blocked. The content suffers, but I'd rather not get blocked or get someone else blocked because eventually the content will get corrected. Opinions on that vary though (Malleus, for example, obviously isn't one to back down... which I think is fine, it's just a different approach), and it would be nice to rectify things so we're not living with such different cultures here on Misplaced Pages.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 16:05, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Applying those policies to administrators and not just to regular editors would be a step in the right direction. Malleus Fatuorum 23:20, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

What about something like a Misplaced Pages-version of Robert's Rules of Order for all editors, specifically when it comes to debate and decorum? Viriditas (talk) 04:43, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

As long as the donations come in, the project will continue. GoodDay (talk) 04:50, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not meaning to open a Pandora's Box of comments here (though I can already imagine how that will happen), but maybe what's needed is a process similar to WP:AN3, where civility complaints can be filed through a formalized process where multiple instances of recent and ongoing incivility must be provided along with at least one notification to the editor of concerns regarding their tone? Just an idea, and FWIW I'd recommend that more than 3 specific instances be requied. Five strikes me as a reasonable number if they are recent and the editor was asked to desist. Doniago (talk) 14:20, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

The nastiest treatment is by people who know how to USE the Misplaced Pages system to beat up people. It's the nastiest because it can then be done with immunity. North8000 (talk) 14:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Want a solution? Here it is.

On this site, "experience" translates to experience with wikipedia procedures. That is the complete opposite of how things should be.

What to do?

Simple. Abolish all rules and start over from fresh. There can be a core team of admins left over, but they will be there to do the community's bidding ONLY and will be permitted to do nothing else - not even say anything, except to ask questions if they're unclear about what they're being asked to do. There can of course be admin bots with that too. And say good bye to the guidelines as well. And the essays. They'll all be archived of course, for historical interest and future inspiration. But that's it.

Then we build the wikipedia "system" up again.

Oh, and when we do this, we shouldn't be quiet about it. We should be loud. We should attract the best minds in the world to come and draft these rules, guidelines and so on. Richard Dawkins devising evoloutionary biology guidelines. Peter Singer animal welfare guidelines. Chomsky language. And some Wharton MBAs coming up with the new procedures. Give them a week or two to do it. Every means of communication possible - on wiki, IRC, email, SKYPE, phone, hell there'd probably even be TV time for something this big. This has to be a big discussion and I believe it could involve over a million people.

So yeah... this would be massive. My question is: does the community have the balls? Especially since, if you are currently a "prominent" community member, you ain't gonna be after this. Egg Centric 19:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

It's certainly an interesting proposal, but like you, I'm not sure if the community would be willing to take it on. After being here for about nine and a half months, I think a fresh start of some sort for Misplaced Pages would be a very good thing. I'm not certain about scrapping everything, but yes, a fresh start for the whole project would be very nice. As a side note, I'm not sure that that admins' noticeboard is the best place for a discussion like this; perhaps Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals) would be better? Chris the Paleontologist (talk • contribs) 19:58, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that didn't work out so well when they tried it on "Blood on the Scales". Your solution is tantamount to throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Not good. Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

You could use an even more thorough approach to the same goal: abolish the community when you start afresh. Ban all the existing editors at the same time that you abolish all the rules. Then just let in editors who you think are good. Change the domain name and servers too. In fact Misplaced Pages's content policies (specificially the CC licensing) is designed to allow exactly this, it's called a "fork", and multiple people have done it with varying degrees of success. Citizendium is probably the best known of them. It's better than Misplaced Pages in some ways and worse in others. Same for Wikinfo. Veropedia is of course dead. None of these really got all that much traction, but on the other hand, I half-remember hearing that a fork of the Spanish Misplaced Pages ended up supplanting the original one. Anyway, good luck with your fork; you might want to make another post once it's up and running. 67.117.130.107 (talk) 00:44, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Your memory is ok, but apparently ends in mid-2004. Enciclopedia Libre, a Spanish-Misplaced Pages fork, was indeed more popular. But that only lasted from February 2002 to ~March 2004. It's not quite dead yet, but it's not going anywhere either. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

"Just let in editors who you think are good" - who is this "you" deciding who is "good"? You've abolished all the rules, remember... JohnCD (talk) 19:03, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I prefer evolution to revolution. That isn't to say that revolutions aren't sometimes necessary, but when they are it is because some establishment has sat on all possibility of reform. We aren't in that position, consensus makes change much more difficult than majority voting would, but it is still possible and it does sometimes happen. ϢereSpielChequers 19:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

A backlog at RPP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello, any admins looking for something to do could help at the Requests for Page Protection. I would specifically note the BLP issues being inserted by IPs at Khurshid Ahmad (Professor of Computer Science) -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, But something definitely needs to be done at RPP. Dipankan 15:49, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Article rename against consensus by administrator

There was a proposal to rename The Troll Hunter article to Troll Hunter at Talk:Trollhunter#Requested_move_1. Evidence was provided for the rename, and evidence was provided against the rename, and the consensus at the article failed to determine that a move was justified.

However when the debate was closed the article was moved to Trollhunter (which was a rename that was not proposed and not discussed), and the closer failed to present empirical evidence that the new title is preferred under WP:COMMONAME. In fact, the basis of the argument was simply that the New York Times used the Trollhunter spelling, but there are plenty of other reliable sources that deviate from this i.e. the NYT doesn't trump all other reliable sources.

The closure and rename has been brought up at Wikipedia_talk:Requested_moves#Strange_move_closure.3F and continued at Wikipedia_talk:Requested_moves#Arbitrary_break.3F, on the basis that the consensus at the article correctly determined that the rename wasn't warranted under COMMONNAME. I would prefer some impartial input at that discussion, because it seems like an administrator has taken a unilateral action that a consensus failed to reach. It sets a dangerous precedent IMO because it implies that administrators can trump the consensus arrived at through discussion. Betty Logan (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Technically, admins can override consensus, if said consensus flies in the face of Misplaced Pages policy. I'd have to go through all the pages linked first before weighing in on if that is appropriate in this case, which might be a while. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:06, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I would appreciate that. If there was a policy breach in the discussion then that's fair enough. My point of contention is not so much the end result (I can live with it) but how the decision was made. If the guidelines weren't being interpreted correctly the discussion could have been given some guidance; if he felt the correct rename hadn't been proposed it could have been added to the discussion and analysed on its own merits. I appreciate that discussions can sometimes misinterpret guidelines and policy, but if that is the case then I see no reason why the discussion can't be extended to take account of a revised understanding. I'm not asking for a review of the outcome, it's process I would like to see reviewed, since I think consensus was marginalised to an extent. Betty Logan (talk) 19:24, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

frankly from a quick read thru the discussion I think the article should have been kept at the first contributors preference per wp:engvar. Nil Einne (talk) 18:17, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

• I've honestly never understood the "first contributors preference" thing... but that's a completely different subject. It's not directly relevant to this particular discussion, but I wanted to mention the new Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closure review proposal here, since it's being designed to handle exactly this sort of situation. Regards,
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 19:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Where do I go to complain about these new T&Cs

Basically there's one thing that worries me - the term "applicable law". What does that mean? Could my contributions be subject to the law of, god, I dunno, Belarus?

And the clause about threats is very dangerous. What is a threat? If I say I am going to report someone to ANI if they don't stop their behaviour, is that a threat? Actaully I can find lots of scary things here... I want my mummy... Egg Centric 19:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Might help if you told us what you were talking about. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

On the top of every page on wiki I see "Our updated Terms of Use will become effective on May 25, 2012. Find out more" - sadly that goes to the foundation wiki which ain't editable.

As a side point it appears the banner is suppressed if you have the gadget to supress the fundraising banner enabled. That's why many didn't know what you were refering to.--Cube lurker (talk) 19:29, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that would explain it. Pretty sorry oversight on their part, using the same flag as fundraising banners. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

meta:Talk:Terms of use would be a better forum to comment on the ToU. MBisanz 19:46, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Please could others as disgusted as me that there was essentially a secret consultation, look at meta:Talk:Terms_of_use#Re-open_this.21 and add your calls to mine for this to be re-opened. Of course, if no one else does then I suppose no one cares, which de facto vindicates those behind this. But I'm disgusted. Especially as there's a rule I would have liked added - it should have been common sense, but since I encountered a complete lack of it ont he wiki I refer to, they need to be kept in line. Egg Centric 20:59, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

That's a horrid overreaction. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:16, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

"Secret consultation"? Hundreds of users managed to discover that so-called "secret", probably because it was repeatedly announced in multiple different forums over a span of at least four months before the Board's vote. If you managed to miss every single one of these announcements (and there are more than the half-dozen I've linked here), then you really haven't been paying attention.

Your question about "applicable laws" has been answered several times, but since you apparently missed it and haven't figured out how to search the archives at Meta, let me give you the summary: Which laws apply depend on who you are and where you are. Those laws apply whether the WMF maintains strict silence about their existence or whether (as they elected to do) they kindly point out in the TOU that there are laws in the real world about what you do on the internet. If you are an American national, editing Misplaced Pages from an American location, then American laws apply to you. If you are a Belarusian national or you are editing from Belarus, then Belarus' laws apply to you—and this would be true even if the WMF didn't have a Terms of Use agreement in the first place. If you want to know exactly which laws apply to your particular situation, then you need to take your own money and hire your own legal counsel.

As for an effort to reverse the TOU adoption: These terms were adopted by a vote of the Board. Getting them changed will therefore require another vote of the Board. The next Board meeting is scheduled for about six weeks after the TOU are scheduled to go into effect. Your actual choices as a user in the short term are therefore either to like it or to lump it. Making noise or badgering the staff won't have any effect. The only effective course of action is to change a majority of votes on the Board (which, again, ain't going to happen, but if you want to try, that's what you need to be trying to do). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:40, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

It should have had a banner. The announcement about the outcome had a banner. That there was to be a discussion could have done as well. Anyway, that is a side issue. The voting thing is far more important (now that the legal thing has been explained to me) - you should not be blocked from doing things on meta that you would be allowed to do on en in furtherance of voting on en. Enshrining that in the rules would have been a great idea and maybe it can still be an addemendum Egg Centric 18:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Having looked at the actual terms, it seems clear to me they're referring to long-term harassment of a user. "Threat" would mean actual threats against a person, not "I'm reporting you to ANI." For "applicable law," I'd read that as "law where the servers are located." Potentially "laws where the editor is located." — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

An example of 'law where the editor is located' came up recently in respect of a criminal trial taking place in England. The English media are subject to a general restriction (sub judice) on reporting a trial, and also were subject to specific reporting restrictions on this trial. If an English based Misplaced Pages editor had managed to find out what went on at the closed hearing and reported it on Misplaced Pages he/she would have been in contempt of the English court, and potentially could have gone to jail. All the WMF effectively is saying is 'you are also subject to the law in the country you live in', which is rather of the blinding obvious. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:38, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it's just there to prevent an editor who gets in trouble with local laws from suing WMF because it encouraged him to ignore those local laws? Nyttend (talk) 13:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think it's there primarily as a courtesy, to remind users in difficult legal situations that just because the WMF is subject to California laws doesn't mean that they can't get in trouble with their local system if they write something that is legal in California but illegal in their location, not because of any liability the WMF could have. I believe that they honestly don't want their (e.g.,) Chinese users to get arrested, and breaking the illusion that local laws are irrelevant is one way to protect some naïve users. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I don't think protection against confused users is their primary concern. In fact this thread itself seems to illustrate the need for such a term. It does seem a lot of people mistakenly believe that either because it's a US site or because it's the Internet they're somehow not subject to local (and potentially other) laws on libel, copyright etc or that only the foundation as hosters have any risk. Clearly it's not in the foundations interest to have its contributors get in trouble because of such an unfortunate misconception even if there's no legal risk to the foundation. Nil Einne (talk) 17:28, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

94.3.137.170

• 94.3.137.170 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Can someone please turn off talk page access?--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:13, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Y Done Rjd0060 (talk) 01:31, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Potentialy disruptive edits

Heads up Jordanspeled (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is changing a lot of categories related to Jews. There is nothing inherently problematic about this, of course, but a new user appearing out of nowhere editing dozens of categories related to an ethno-religious minority is worrisome. I have not notified this user, as it's possible that I'm just being overly sensitive and this is a tempest in a teapot. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:22, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Well I notified them for you. If they are doing it in good faith, look at the complaints on their talk page, it is better to be informed that people are talking about you rather than behind your back. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 12:28, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I have blocked the user for 48 hours. Daniel Case (talk) 14:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Removing a bad source

Spiritus-Temporis is an unattributed mirror of Misplaced Pages articles.

Given that wikipedia mirrors are not reliable sources and not appropriate External Links all uses of Spiritus-Temporis should be removed. Is there an automated way of doing this to save individually going into over 200 articles? duffbeerforme (talk) 07:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

(for reference, all spiritus-temporis links) --Enric Naval (talk) 07:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Some of those links are on talk pages, and those could probably remain - our focus must be in the article space, and there are a lot of those as well. I see that this source has been discussed before, if the few talk pages I spot checked are an indication. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:18, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I really don't know how to get rid of them properly except by manually going through each page and chopping them. I've gotten rid of a few from mainspace so far, including about 20 today. Nyttend (talk) 13:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

May sanctions that are actively in effect be removed from a user talk page

You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:User pages#May sanctions that are actively in effect be removed from a user talk page. Particularly, may an editor remove active block notices and community sanctions from thier talk page? Monty₈₄₅ 17:31, 26 April 2012 (UTC)Template:Z48

Conveniently enough, we're doing a buy one get one free deal at WT:UP; there's another (unrelated) RfC directly below the one mentioned above. Feel free to visit both. ‑Scottywong| talk _ 21:59, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

WP:AFC/R#Redirect request: Father Knows Best???

I'm requesting a redirect for an episode of Perfect Strangers. The link is List of Perfect Strangers episodes#ep79. --George Ho (talk) 19:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Time to make WP:BRD policy?

If anyone's wondering where the thread went, it's at the Village Pump. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:02, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Orange Mike

New user Admarkroundsquare (talk · contribs) uploaded a new logo for Round Square and explained at the help desk that he works for the organisation and asked for help updating the article with new information and the new logo. So Orangemike (talk · contribs) blocked him without discussion and slapped an offensive template on his user page.

This seems inappropriate to me. Is this the way admins typically treat new users? Do you, as a group, approve of this kind of behaviour? I've notified Mike of this discussion. I haven't discussed it with him because he clearly thinks it's OK and I'm actually interested in what the admin community thinks. I'm not looking for any action, just opinions (unless there's a pattern of rudeness). --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This is certainly the appropriate venue for this kind of discussion, Anthony; I am not even remotely offended. My reasoning was that the username Admarkroundsquare was clearly for advertising and marketing of Round Square, and thus was inappropriate. I will readily acknowledge that I am not hospitable towards advertising and marketing in Misplaced Pages, but did not think my actions were out of line. That "offensive template" was designed by Misplaced Pages's user interaction gurus, not by me, and is the standard template for spamusernames. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The issue at hand is not really blocking the editor, but your attitude in dealing with these people. Which is problematic IMO. --Errant 12:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• People with undisclosed but obvious affiliations edit articles like this every day, I see it all the time. If he was less honest, he wouldn't have disclosed it like most. I always like it when editors disclose it honestly.--Milowent • 12:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Mike has a particular... view.. of editors associated with organisations or their own biographies - which is that they are bad people, here for a nefarious agenda and must be immediately blocked with prejudice or put in their place. Part of the problem is that block notice (not his fault) which doesn't help explain the issue at hand to what is probably a well meaning individual who doesn't know how things work. But then we also have this from earlier today - Misplaced Pages:BLP/N#Keith_Gary - in which he bites heavily at a new editor on the basis of reading "my Misplaced Pages page" as asserting some kind of ownership. I've recently noted Mike's work through a recent AN/I and I have quite a lot of concerns about how he deals with COI, BLP subjects etc. as well as possible issues with content he is adding in his own topic field. An RFC/U might be in order, although it would be nice to see his response to these concerns. -Errant 12:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

content he is adding in his own topic field???? --Orange Mike | Talk 12:44, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

We'll deal with that in a moment. But reviewing the block procedures; why did you use a "bad faith" template for an account that has tried (and failed) to update their logo, then asked for help on the helpdesk? Certainly the username was wrong, but why not use {{Uw-softerblock}} in the absence of any actual promotional editing? --Errant 12:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Ummm... "How do I delete a page from Misplaced Pages that was produced ages ago. I need to replace the whole page with up to date information and new logo." isn't promotional? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:52, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Misguided, sure. Aiming to be promotional. But assuming they can't have WP:NPOV explained to them is a succinct failure of assume good faith. --Errant 12:57, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• I think it would make more sense to wait until they had problematic edits. We're supposed to assume good faith, not shoot on sight. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:00, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's a username block, and the username does contain the name of the organization. The discussion of COI seems relatively neutral. I don't see this as horrible. Possibly a little more tact was in order, but that's arguable.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I will readily concede that I have low tolerance towards paid editors and the entire COI/PR/spindoctor industry (which seems to have us targeted for conquest or destruction, if we don't yield to their demands). On the flip side of WP:AGF, I will point out that it was at my instigation that we created the {{causeblock}} template, for the clueless well-intentioned advocate who creates an account in the name of their cause or not-for-profit organization, but is not spamming Misplaced Pages. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:32, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Seems to be a simple case of WP:ORGNAME. User had a clearly promotional username and was engaging in promotional activity. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

WP:ORGNAME says:

• Users who adopt such a username and engage in inappropriately promotional behaviors in articles about the company, group, or product, are usually blocked.
• Users who adopt such usernames, but who are not editing problematically in related articles, should not be blocked. Instead, they should be gently encouraged to change their username. (emphasis not mine)

This editor did not make any problematic edits. In fact, they don't have a single edit in article space. Also, how is a newbie supposed to know about WP:ORGNAME? I've been on Misplaced Pages for 2-3 years now, and I've never seen that policy before. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Uh, the guy made it clear that he was here to construct a page for his company. Again, Advertising and Marketing. WP:NOTAD. The fact that you are ignorant of the relevant policy is really quite meaningless. I have been around for around the same amount of time and have known about it for quite a while. Spend a couple months patrolling new pages and recent changes and you'll learn these ropes right quick. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:31, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I think your response here rather highlights the problem... A new user is always ignorant of policy; treating them as a criminal rather than trying to educate them is simply bad faith. So what if they are here to market their company/organisation - doesn't make them a bad person incapable of changing. I hope to god you don't patrol new pages with that sort of attitude. --Errant 15:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This particular block I find to be justifiably "preventative". As outlined before, policy is pretty clear on promotional behaviour and usernames. If the guy is such a "good person", then why don't you go and suggest that he change his username and mentor him on policy? If you're right, then he should warm right up to it. As for myself, I grew tired of NPP about a year ago, to an extent because of PR guys like this one. I'm not buying your line. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Furthermore, speculations on whether or not an editor is a "good person" or "bad person" are really quite irrelevant. Such wishy-washy subjective labels are not part of the workings of this site. I have never seen a block that says "You have been blocked indefinitely from editing Misplaced Pages because you are a bad, bad person." I am sure that many vandals, POV-pushers, and even banned users are great guys/gals in real life—they just cause issues for the functioning of the project. Character evaluations are utterly meaningless. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:08, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not understanding how {{softerblock}} is considered offensive – especially since it starts with "Welcome to Misplaced Pages", and kindly tells to "please take a moment to create a new account". --MuZemike 15:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Orange Mike originally placed {{Uw-spamublock}} on the user's talk page and it has since been replaced with {{softerblock}}, so it was the spamublock template that was referred to as offensive. -- Ed (Edgar181) 15:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, I see why: We usually do that to direct users who have already made edits to change their username so that they get to keep their contribs when switching to another username (normally via WP:CHU); {{softerblock}} is more intended when there are no contribs under the username (or they have all been deleted) and when it would be easier for that person to simply create another account on his/her own without our assistance, unlike the other username blocks. --MuZemike 16:15, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This is now a non-issue, as the original {{Uw-spamublock}} has been replaced with {{softerblock}}. There is no evidence that the user even saw the harder block template—it was up for less than 24 hours—so the slightly too-harsh response by Orangemike is old news. Orangemike should be forgiven this very minor blip which was only a matter of degree of response. I am 100% supportive of anyone who stands between PR agents and Misplaced Pages, to make it more difficult to turn the encyclopedia into a promotional tool. Binksternet (talk) 16:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• The block and the {{Uw-spamublock}} block notification template were appropriate. Advertising is not permitted on Misplaced Pages, and the username indicates that this was the account's purpose. I do not see the problem here.  Sandstein  17:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

  You might think that, but that's not what WP:ORGNAME says. If this is the new community concensus, then someone should make following changes:

• Users who adopt such usernames, but who are not editing problematically in related articles, should not be blocked. Instead, they should be gently encouraged to change their username. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• The block was itself valid. So what would've happened if the guy had a non-promotional username and posted "Hey, this company's logo changed, see the link here", would we have blocked him immediately with a bad faith template? That's where I have trouble with this one. I think we can block, advise them why (and a template does not work well for this) and still accept valid, correct information. Someone says that an article is out of date, getting blocked doesn't mean they're wrong. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 17:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
• I'm going to have to agree with Ultra on this one. I prefer the ErrantX approach much better. I'm not saying the block was wrong - but, if you're not "not hospitable" toward a particular group of new editors, then take a break from that area for a while. No need to wp:bite someone just because they don't know the rules. Personally I think admins. should strive to achieve higher standards than that. The guy/gal wants to update a logo, and we slap him with some "you're outta here" template? We can do better, and we should. — Ched :  ?  18:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
• Yes, clearly User:Orangemike has declared a strength of opinion in this area that makes his use of tools in the area totally inappropriate - if you can't stay unemotional in a sector then stop policing it - Here is the user Orangemike very recently immediately attacking a user after a very good faith request to contribute a picture after the user opened a good faith thread at the BLPN noticeboard - Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Keith_Gary - Youreallycan 18:36, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I object strongly to that categorization. The user talked about an article about himself as if it was his MySpace or Facebook page, in language that implied ownership of the article; I firmly stated that the article was just that: an article, not a "page". It is him, but is not his' and is not under his control. That is not an attack in any way. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:15, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
    • You can strongly object all you like. Anyone is able to look at that discussion - you started on an attack position not a welcome one - you assumed a lack of good faith - you attacked , you didn't show any good faith or welcome at all - not at all - users can read that discussion and see for themselves. -How can I add photos to my wikipedia page? - did you help them in their question ? - no you didn't, not in any way - Youreallycan 19:24, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
      • Mike; I think that is the crux of the problem. Because my reading of the comment was "the article about me". You assumed that meant he could control it, which is a lack of good faith - especially as a perfectly reasonable reading of the comment doesn't show that. When users ask for help you should give it to them nicely - not jump down their throats. You categorically & needlessly attacked him. --Errant 19:30, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Lord knows I've had plenty of disagreements with Youreallycan, but he's right in this case. Your response was not at all welcoming or friendly. You have no idea when they said "my article" if they meant "it's an article about me" or if it meant "it's an article I control". You assumed the latter, and not the former. It seems to me that newbie isn't going to be aware of WP:OWNERSHIP and probably doesn't realize that such language can be interpretted to mean ownership. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• The block itself was fine, if a bit too quick. Choosing to use {{softerblock}} would have been much better, but it's not required, It's a judgement call, and not everyone knows about it (or thinks about it, with the automated tools that many people use). I'd just like to point out that this is part of what is something of a campaign over Orange Mike himself (and Cla68, not coincidentally). Making decisions about other users through that prism, and with passions running high, isn't the best way to manage things. At the very least it opens people up, on both "sides" of the issue(s), to criticisms over their politics.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 19:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Whatever happened to assume good faith? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
    • What's to assume? I don't think that I'm assuming anything.
      — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 19:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

"Assume good faith" does not mean burying your head in the sand and pretending that nothing is going on. --MuZemike 19:28, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

And what exactly is going on? The only thing we know for sure is that they said that the logo in our article is out of date and the wanted to update it. I checked out their web site and it turns out Admarkroundsquare was correct. tThe logo in our article is out of date. Here's the new one. What's wrong with updating the logo to their current one? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

"How do I delete a page from Misplaced Pages that was produced ages ago. I need to replace the whole page with up to date information and new logo."--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

You say that as if it contradicts what I said. Let me clarify. The only thing we know for sure is that they said that the logo in our article is out of date and the wanted to update it. What other changes they had in mind, we don't know. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Yup; and I absolutely agree, Sarek, that they probably wanted to do exactly as you posit. But why does that mean they are not welcome? Do you disagree with any of our policies? I'm guessing there are some you think are wrong, or at least not perfect; but no one wants to block you for it! Because you have had the concept of community concept explained, and accepted it. But what you are advocating is not giving them the chance to have it explained... --Errant 19:47, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

What am I supposed to be "positing" here? I was quoting the editor verbatim. I'm not advocating anything, except not misrepresenting the information we have. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

heh. yes sorry a little sleepy here... consider my comment intended generically, then. --Errant 19:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Thought experiment

I was thinking about how to demonstrate the perspective that is eluding some of the commentators here - and perhaps this is it. Imagine that I flicked through your contributions. I expect that, and this applies to all of us here, I could find something that violates one of our policies in some way or other (ostensibly or otherwise). Is it to be assumed you, being regular editors, know policy and therefore are deliberately violating it? Should I block you and whack a template on your userpage? Or is it more likely that an explanation would be of effect? This is the core of the issue; as regulars Misplaced Pages is as natural to us as breathing. To a new user - yes, even one who wants to make their article say nice things - it is a black box. By assuming the worst of faith & dumping an aggressive template note on their page (which they probably don't even know exists, yet) we don't even make an attempt to educate them, we just decide they are unsalvageable. What's the response? They are upset, create a new account and try to "delete" the article. They contact OTRS. They decide Misplaced Pages is obnoxious and tell their friends. Seriously, the way we treat newbies is disgusting. I'm sorry to Mike that he has become the current focus, because he is far from the only guilty one, but he is a strong example of one of our most pressing problems. --Errant 19:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, so our Standard Operating Procedure should be then, if we find usernames that don't fall within our policy, should be to tell the user to change his/her username and/or establish an account, and if he/she doesn't, then ignore the problem? --MuZemike 19:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Uh, I'm not sure how I would be suggesting that... if we take this case I gave you an example (by doing it) of what we should be doing - which is politely blocking the username, explaining why and then trying to answer the question posed. Ignoring the problem is silly, as is stamping around all over the place. --Errant 19:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the next question should be: Is a block ever a polite action? Because from what I gather above, the answer seems to be "no". --MuZemike 19:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I invite those who complain so much about our treatment of newbies to pop over to UAA and see what's actually going on there. If you don't like the way things are being handled, do it yourself; guess what, after the thousandth SEO upstart tries to spam about his company, your patience will run thin. We have a username policy for a reason, and people who violate it should change their usernames. It's not unlike requiring someone to put on a shirt before they walk into an establishment with a "No shirt, no shoes, no service" sign. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:50, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

That's a bad analogy, because we don't have a sign of that sort. What we do have is a global invitation to edit... A lot of the UAA stuff is obvious, I agree, but many (such as this one) are not. It would certainly be worth having a discussion about improving the default templates to assume better faith, certainly. @MuZemike; of course a block is impolite, but often that is the only option. My argument is that it shouldn't be the first option if the situation doesn't seem utterly lost from the get go. --Errant 19:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Have no sign for that? Good — so make one. Should be easy. Oh, strike that. I just logged out, and looked at the "create an account"-page. There is a sign. Maybe make it bolder or colored. Or blinking. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:08, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

From the "create an account" page:

"Username policy prohibits usernames which are promotional, misleading, or offensive:

• promotional usernames:

• containing existing company, organization, group, or website names (including non-profit organizations)"

There is a clear warning. This isn't some obscure guideline, this is explained up front when a user creates an account. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk)

Might be nice if the process to change a username was made easier by programming. If this issue is one that some newbies feel bitten by, and administrators get tired of seeing, then a more 'self-serve' process, where admins can check a box or something might cause fewer problems for editors and admins also. -- Avanu (talk) 20:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

reality is that, as I suggested above, you could make the note blinking yellow with stars in 70pt, some people never follow it, either because they are dumb, illiterate, or just willfully ignoring it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

We can assume good faith, but I don't think we can assume people aren't stupid, illiterate, or ignorant. Some people have an amazing capacity to impress, not by their feats of strength, but by their ability to take something that seems foolproof and still find a way to mess it up. We do hope admins at least have one eye (figuratively), in order to lead the nation of the blind if needed. -- Avanu (talk) 20:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

It's super clear

What Errant and others are trying to tell the admins is that POLICY states you need to try to resolve a problem without resorting to the use of tools, leading by example, and behaving in a respectful, civil manner. Using language or taking actions that feel like an attack on someone who is most likely 100% ignorant of policy is not in line with policy itself. It would be like a police officer shooting a suspect and later saying "I could just tell he was going to shoot me", even if he was just standing there and the officer hadn't said one word, and the suspect didn't have a gun drawn. I'm puzzled why those of you who are administrators can't simply say "yes, that is what policy says, I will recommit to being civil, and lead other editors by example". Rather what I often see is a zillion excuses why it simply isn't done. Every one of us understands that reality won't allow a perfect world, but there's no reason for admins to avoid saying, "OK, I see your reasonable point, I'll do my best." We end up in this long nitpicky discussions because of that simple lack of humility and human-ness that would put the issue to rest instantly. -- Avanu (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

hm. So what you're saying is that only admins are supposed to read policy, and are then under the obligation to explain to everybody else individually what the policies are. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:14, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Not at all. Without question Admins should know policy. But so should editors. Take another pass at what I wrote above; you're very much missing the point. -- Avanu (talk) 20:24, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

My page

One of the things that makes Misplaced Pages seem unfriendly to outsiders is that the use of plain English ("my page" or "our article" being shorthand for "the article about me, or the company I represent") triggers an immediate assumption of bad faith: the article subject must be claiming WP:OWNERSHIP of said article. Well, they may be, but probably they're just trying to communicate in plain English because they didn't realize that the "Misplaced Pages way" of referring to an article requires you use a bit of convoluted speech. "The article about me" is OK, "my article" will get you into trouble. 28bytes (talk) 20:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Another way to put it is: profound lack of empathy -- inability to remember that everyone here once didn't know squat about Misplaced Pages and made equivalent "mistakes". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:50, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

94.3.137.170 again

• 94.3.137.170 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Can someone please revoke talk page access again?--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't object, but why not wait? Don't feed the trolls, and all that, you know?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 19:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Uh, I'd ignore for simply removing the block notice or unblock requests, but the NSFW images were over the top. In any case an admin removed access already, so everything's taken care of.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Block / unblock review: FleetCommand

Can I invite folk to review a block of User:FleetCommand and my unblock of it? A relevant exchange is on my talk page also. --RA (talk) 20:35, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you should have re-blocked him after unblocking - Is this discussion about his actions or yours? Ask yourself, your blocked for a week and you make an unblock request and an admin comes along and unblocks you , accepts your request and then the admin is questioned and so reblocks you and asks for discussion - thats just wrong, you assessed the situation and decided not to discuss with the blocking admin and unblocked the user with a reasoned comment - that is your position you need to defend. Not having well considered the unblock request and not having the depth of faith in your decision and then reblocking the user is your worst mistake. - Youreallycan 20:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I re-blocked FleetCommand because Toddst1 (the blocking admin) is insistent the block was merited and because I did not discuss it with Toddst1 before performing the unblock. I should have discussed it (as it was not an obvious error). As I did not, I am raising it here for discussion — and my unblock is obviously up for discussion too. I acknowledge that re-blocking FleetCommand is messy but it is better to get consensus rather than having two admins wrangle about it, in my opinion.

I suggest FleetCommand be unblocked. From what I see, the block is unmerited. I cannot see any justification for a 1 week block in this instance. The exchange in question cannot reasonably be called an edit war: it comprised three edits, between two editors, over the course of two days, which moved towards consensus, and ended in agreement.

There is an issue around civility (and battlefield behavior) in FleetCommands comments on User talk:62.254.139.60. In particularly, instantly accusing another editor of "edit warring" is a battle strategy. However, over-all, FleetCommand moved from disagreement to co-operation and so a block for incivility or battlefield-ism is not merited either, in my opinion.

Are others of a similar mind? Or should the block stand? --RA (talk) 21:11, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The issue is you now - your poor administrative actions have violated the blocked users chance of a decent unblock request. - I suggest you stand up for your unblock and then revert your revert and unblock him and block yourself for the week - take his block onboard. Youreallycan 21:15, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Administrative backlog