| Revision as of 20:48, 13 April 2012 editPaul Siebert (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers26,740 edits →Martin Luther's influence← Previous edit | Revision as of 21:05, 13 April 2012 edit undoCollect (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers47,160 edits →Martin Luther's influence: last I checked, Pius XII was NOT a LutheranNext edit → | ||
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| :I agree that Luther influenced German anti-Semitism. I am not disputing that. I am saying that this article is skewed wrongly in implying that his anti-Semitism was the basis of Nazi anti-Semitism. I agree with Wallmann if he says that Luther is not directly relevant to anti-Semitism in the 18th and 19th centuries. Re Collect’s comment: I don’t doubt your first two statements as you suggest. They agree with what I was saying, that Nazi anti-Semitism is more a South German-Austrian phenomenon. The Lutheran anti-Semitic tradition of North Germany provided it with fertile ground. I feel no disagreement with your following statements, but don’t see why you think they countervene my statement. I quoted Luther to show his anti-Semitism was not ‘eliminationist’, as was later racial anti-Semitism. ] (]) 20:21, 13 April 2012 (UTC) | :I agree that Luther influenced German anti-Semitism. I am not disputing that. I am saying that this article is skewed wrongly in implying that his anti-Semitism was the basis of Nazi anti-Semitism. I agree with Wallmann if he says that Luther is not directly relevant to anti-Semitism in the 18th and 19th centuries. Re Collect’s comment: I don’t doubt your first two statements as you suggest. They agree with what I was saying, that Nazi anti-Semitism is more a South German-Austrian phenomenon. The Lutheran anti-Semitic tradition of North Germany provided it with fertile ground. I feel no disagreement with your following statements, but don’t see why you think they countervene my statement. I quoted Luther to show his anti-Semitism was not ‘eliminationist’, as was later racial anti-Semitism. ] (]) 20:21, 13 April 2012 (UTC) | ||
| ::The TFD's quote tells about "continuity" between between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented anti-Semitism. This is much softer statement than the thesis that Lutheran anti-Semitism was the ''basis'' of anti-Semitism. Therefore, I don't see any contradiction here. The only questionable thesis is the idea that, since Roman Catholicism was also anti-Semitic, we cannot draw connection between Luther and Nazism. I see no logic here.--] (]) 20:47, 13 April 2012 (UTC) | ::The TFD's quote tells about "continuity" between between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented anti-Semitism. This is much softer statement than the thesis that Lutheran anti-Semitism was the ''basis'' of anti-Semitism. Therefore, I don't see any contradiction here. The only questionable thesis is the idea that, since Roman Catholicism was also anti-Semitic, we cannot draw connection between Luther and Nazism. I see no logic here.--] (]) 20:47, 13 April 2012 (UTC) | ||
| ::::And I suppose you can tell me why Luther has such an influence on the '''Roman Catholic areas of Germany'''? In fact, where the Nazi base was? Cheers. ] (]) 21:05, 13 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
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Etymology
I'm not sure about the etymology. My understanding is they were originally called Nazi-Sozi, on the pattern of the Social Democrats who were called Sozi, and that Sozi was later dropped. The nickname "Nazi" from Ignatz might have influenced this, but the mere existence of the previously existing nickname for South German/bumpkins isn't sufficient evidence of a play on words.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. There needs to be a mention of the fact that the first two syllables of "Nationalsozialist" is pronounced in German like "Nazi." While the "Ignatz" thing might have had some influence, my understanding has always been that it's from the German pronunciation, particularly when one considers the fact that the "Nationalist" part was the primary defining characteristic of Nazism, in contrast to the "Sozis" and others. Bryonmorrigan (talk) 19:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sources widely claim that the term "Nazi" is related to the use of the "Sozi" short form for the German Social Democratic Party connotation rather than based on "Ignatz".--R-41 (talk) 19:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have always interpreted this as coming from "NAtionalsoZIalismus", but that's just based on my own personal impression as a native speaker of German, not on any explicit information I ever received anywhere. It's slightly weird, but the parallelism with the (apparently earlier) word "Sozi" makes it completely logical (via "National-Sozi"). The claim here that this new meaning took over an older word with negative connotations, though I have never heard of it before, seems absolutely plausible and is consistent with the derivation. Hans Adler 09:27, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sources widely claim that the term "Nazi" is related to the use of the "Sozi" short form for the German Social Democratic Party connotation rather than based on "Ignatz".--R-41 (talk) 19:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
It's perplexing to understand why the Hebraic origins of this term are not noted. The word: "Nazi" is clearly Hebraic in origin, and is said by some to translate as: "German", although I doubt this is entirely true. It is clearly related to the word: Ashkenazi, who were said to be "German Jews", thus the translation of Nazi, by some, to mean German. However, the Ashkenazi Jews were/are Europeon Jews of historically recent conversion, and are in no way ethnically related to the Jews of biblical antiquity.
The term in Hebrew is closely related to: "Nozeri", which was a derogatory term used in the Talmud and the Midrash to denote the early Christians. In this usage Nozeri was also directly related the term Nazarenes. Considering this, the term Nazi was probably a derogatory term created and used by the Jewish community to denote the German Gentiles in the same manner as was used to denote the early Christians. It is helpful to note in research of this term that in vintage translation the Z and the S were interchangable.(nosi, nasi) I believe the term shares a common usage with the term Goy,(Goyim in plural), which essentially means non-Jew. In this sense the inclusion of the root in the name Ashkenazi would make some sense in that these Europeon Jews are not to be considered natural Jews. However, I understand that this would be considered independant research and ineligible for inclusion in a Wiki article. With this said, however, I do believe that, at minimum, the Hebraic origins merit notation in the article. Manson 23:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manson48 (talk • contribs)
- Well, that's an interesting and inventive use of the word "clearly". ;-)
- Seriously though, if you have any respectable sources to back up that stuff feel free to suggest them. Just be aware that different words in different languages frequently share some of the same consonants without being connected so it will take rather more than somebody pointing out "But it has an N and a Z in it, it must be connected!" to persuade us that there is an Hebraic connection to the term at all. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct that this "would be considered independant (sic) research and ineligible for inclusion in a Wiki article". Your comments are therefore wasting other editors' time and are disruptive. TFD (talk)
Manson48 is clearly an anti-Semite—just look at the racist nonsense on his user page. He also repeats the racist lies that Ashkenazim are somehow not descended from Israelites. I strongly suspect he is a Nation of Islam adherent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloudariseasd (talk • contribs) 01:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
- Despite the claptrap above, there is no Hebrew etymological connection between "Nazi" and "Ashkenazi". In Hebrew, these words are not written in Roman characters, but in Hebrew, and are spelt and pronounced differently: נאצי with a Tsade is pronounced "Natsi", while אשקנזי with a Zayin is pronounced "Ashkenazi". The fact that both of these are commonly transcribed into English using the letter Z reflects a shortconming of English orthography, not the reality of Hebrew etymology. RolandR (talk) 00:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I have to agree with RolandR. Most of this material about the supposed etymology of the word Nazi, like "Ignatius" and a link with "Ashkenazi", is rank speculation and in my opinion completely inaccurate.
Like Hans Adler, I had the strange mental assumption that Nazi comes from NAtional-SoZIalismus. But the more I think about it, the more I agree with Jack Upland about Nazi-Sozi, with the Sozi being dropped in common usage because it's cumbersome. Nazi is a quick and dirty verbal abbreviation of the word "National," which in German is pronounced "Natsional," or "Nazional." The German written letter "z" is pronounced like the letters "ts" in English. In German, the written word National, when spoken, sounds exactly the same as "Nazional." (4 syllables: Na zi o nal) The German word Sozial sounds exactly like it is written, if you use the English "z" that is in the word Nazi (3 syllables: So zi al).
"Nazi" is a German verbal abbreviation for "National," and "Sozi" is an abbreviation for "Sozial," which means "Social." The National Socialists (the German National-Sozialismus is the English National Socialism) were "Nazis", and the Socialists were "Sozis." Just think "Commies" for Communists. Nowadays the "Sozis" are the members of the Social Democratic Party, the SDP. But back in the first part of the 20th Century, there were Socialists (Sozialisten or Sozis), Communists (Kommunisten), Marxists (Marxisten), National Socialists (National-Sozialisten or Nazis), and so on. They began as ideologies, then crystallized into political parties. In the 1970s, in post-war Germany, the big political parties consisted of the Free Democrats (FDP), the Christian Democrats (CDU), the Social Democrats (SDP), and so on. I even saw a demonstration of the Communist Party in downtown Frankfurt when I was a youngster, complete with riot police and water cannon, so they were still alive as late as the 1970s. The anarchists were around too, it was the era of the Baader-Meinhof gang, which were constantly in the news when I was growing up. Rolandrlj (talk) 20:21, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Both http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Nazi and even Wiktionary http://en.wiktionary.org/Nazi implore that it's an abbreviation of Nationalsozialist. Finbob83 (talk) 07:43, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Mark Forsyth does not seem to be a qualified degreed scholar or historian - just a guy with a hobby that runs a blog. Therefore, his book does not qualify as a Reliable Source, and the note citing The Telegraph from which the info comes from is not a valid reference. I'll wait 48 hours before changing it to hear arguments to the contrary, then use two scholarly works to identify the roots of the term "Nazi." HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:26, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
As someone with a life-long interest in this subject and an extensive knowledge of the serious relevant literature from decades of continuous formal and informal study, I am absolutely shocked by the nonsense appearing on the page and in this discussion regarding the etymology of the term 'Nazi'. To avoid Misplaced Pages becoming a laughing-stock, I would suggest that the paragraph dealing with this be immediately deleted. The native speakers who have suggested that it is no more than an abbreviation of NAtionalsoZIalist are of course correct, and there is no more to it than that. Kim Traynor 01:22, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- Close...but as I've noted previously, in German, the first 2 syllables of "Nationalsozialist" are pronounced as "Naht-Zee," just as the first two syllables of "Sozialist" are pronounced as "Soht-Zee." The idea that they are bringing the "Zee" from way down in the word "Sozialist" is peculiar and erroneous. These are really no different from how sometimes in the US, the major 2 parties are referred to as "Dems" and "Reps." But the other crazy theories are just that: Theories. (And OR) --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 12:18, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have not been following this page, but after reading the section in question, I agree it needed to be re-written due to very dubious claims. Nazi is an acronym, no more than that. Kierzek (talk) 12:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- The word "acronym" is incorrect, for if "Nazi" were such, it would need to be written as "NaZi," or "N.A.Z.I." if it were a true "acronym." Just say the word "Nationalsozialist" out loud in German. This really is an "Occam's Razor" issue. Why on Earth would someone create such a ponderous and absurd acronym, when "Naso" would be more applicable? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever that the "Zi" comes from the middle of the word "Sozialist." (And yes, I speak German fluently.) --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 13:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- Disagree. "acronym": a word formed from the initial letters or groups of letters of words in a set phrase or series of words; and it can be words such as radar and laser. But really there is no reason to beat this horse. Kierzek (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm surprised this isn't easily settled by an appeal to a reliable source. Oh, it is, I think: the Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache ("Etymological dictionary of the German language") (2002) supports the Ignatz story -- not as the source of the word, but as the reason it became popular for the followers of the movement. One should think that the standard reference work for the history of the German language would be definitive here. --jpgordon 15:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- And for the record, it doesn't explicitly state it, but it seems to also back up the German pronunciation thing I've posted about, which is explicitly given as the etymology on the Wiktionary page. The "Nati" in "Nationalsozialist" is pronounced like "Naht-Zee" in German. I think a lot of the NAtionalsoZIalist "theory" is intended to highlight the "sozialist" part of the word...to make a POV point. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 15:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- Jpgordon cannot be serious in suggesting that the followers of National Socialism wanted to style themselves as "backwoods Bavarian bumpkins". And as for the creation of the acronym from separate syllables, this has a long tradition in Germany, witness Stasi from STAatsSIcherheit in the GDR. Kim Traynor 01:24, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, you inadvertently gave another example. If you say the word "Staatssicherheit" out loud in German, you will notice that the first two syllables are "Staht-See." Click on the blue arrow here to hear it spoken by a native speaker: . Also, go here and scroll to the bottom to hear a native German speaker say "National." Just listen to the German. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 01:33, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- You're misreading me, Kim, but I guess I was ambiguous. "The reason it became popular for referring to followers of the movement" would have been more clear. I don't have the etymological dictionary at hand; otherwise I'd just quote it directly. --jpgordon 06:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- You know...I hadn't thought of it until just now, but maybe the "Ignatz" thing was a precursor to the "Teabagger" controversy that occurred a couple years ago in the USA, where members of the Tea Party called themselves that, or variations of it, even though it had a completely different slang connotation. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 12:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- Trust me to give Bryon an example that failed to persuade! (They didn't say Statsi, did they?) Can we try another? The Nationalpolitische Lehranstalt was abbreviated to Napola. Here you can see, especially from the final 'a', that such acronyms can be created quite randomly as long as the constituent letters are in the right sequence. Kim Traynor 13:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Kim for my and his reasons stated above. It also seems the discussion is heading into speculation at this point, Bryon. One thing is for sure the article needs ce and clean up work, outside of this issue herein. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- Trust me to give Bryon an example that failed to persuade! (They didn't say Statsi, did they?) Can we try another? The Nationalpolitische Lehranstalt was abbreviated to Napola. Here you can see, especially from the final 'a', that such acronyms can be created quite randomly as long as the constituent letters are in the right sequence. Kim Traynor 13:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- You know...I hadn't thought of it until just now, but maybe the "Ignatz" thing was a precursor to the "Teabagger" controversy that occurred a couple years ago in the USA, where members of the Tea Party called themselves that, or variations of it, even though it had a completely different slang connotation. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 12:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- You're misreading me, Kim, but I guess I was ambiguous. "The reason it became popular for referring to followers of the movement" would have been more clear. I don't have the etymological dictionary at hand; otherwise I'd just quote it directly. --jpgordon 06:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, you inadvertently gave another example. If you say the word "Staatssicherheit" out loud in German, you will notice that the first two syllables are "Staht-See." Click on the blue arrow here to hear it spoken by a native speaker: . Also, go here and scroll to the bottom to hear a native German speaker say "National." Just listen to the German. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 01:33, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- Jpgordon cannot be serious in suggesting that the followers of National Socialism wanted to style themselves as "backwoods Bavarian bumpkins". And as for the creation of the acronym from separate syllables, this has a long tradition in Germany, witness Stasi from STAatsSIcherheit in the GDR. Kim Traynor 01:24, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
- And for the record, it doesn't explicitly state it, but it seems to also back up the German pronunciation thing I've posted about, which is explicitly given as the etymology on the Wiktionary page. The "Nati" in "Nationalsozialist" is pronounced like "Naht-Zee" in German. I think a lot of the NAtionalsoZIalist "theory" is intended to highlight the "sozialist" part of the word...to make a POV point. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 15:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm surprised this isn't easily settled by an appeal to a reliable source. Oh, it is, I think: the Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache ("Etymological dictionary of the German language") (2002) supports the Ignatz story -- not as the source of the word, but as the reason it became popular for the followers of the movement. One should think that the standard reference work for the history of the German language would be definitive here. --jpgordon 15:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- Disagree. "acronym": a word formed from the initial letters or groups of letters of words in a set phrase or series of words; and it can be words such as radar and laser. But really there is no reason to beat this horse. Kierzek (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- The word "acronym" is incorrect, for if "Nazi" were such, it would need to be written as "NaZi," or "N.A.Z.I." if it were a true "acronym." Just say the word "Nationalsozialist" out loud in German. This really is an "Occam's Razor" issue. Why on Earth would someone create such a ponderous and absurd acronym, when "Naso" would be more applicable? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever that the "Zi" comes from the middle of the word "Sozialist." (And yes, I speak German fluently.) --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 13:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have not been following this page, but after reading the section in question, I agree it needed to be re-written due to very dubious claims. Nazi is an acronym, no more than that. Kierzek (talk) 12:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Disambiguation
Could someone please take a look at National Socialism (disambiguation) and National Socialist Movement for me? I made a couple of technical edits to bring them into conformance with WP:INTDABLINK ("creating links to disambiguation pages is erroneous. Links should instead point to a relevant article.) and MOS:DABRL ("A link to a non-existent article (a "red link") should only be included on a disambiguation page when an article (not just disambiguation pages) also includes that red link.") but I have very little knowledge about the actual subject, so could someone familiar with the topic please check to see that the links themselves are correct? Also, please check the recent history and confirm that the deletions by another editor were correct. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 18:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Just as a followup, an editor at Talk:National Socialism (disambiguation) has some questions about some of the links. I answered the portion of his questions that deal with how to apply Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, but I have no idea whether or not the content changes he is advocating are correct. If someone who actually understands the topic could pop over there and help him, I would appreciate it. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 02:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Why is the intro in past tense? Is it denying that there are Nazi movements today?
I don't understand the past tense in the intro. It was put there a while ago and it has remained. There are Nazi movements today that are just as committed to Adolf Hitler's agenda as the Nazis of the 1920s to 1940s. It seems to be denying that Nazi ideology does or can exist today.--R-41 (talk) 03:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Nazism refers to the historical movement that ended in 1945. Holdovers and people who want to return to it are called "neo-nazis". Most Nazis either left politics or moved to more mainstream parties. TFD (talk) 04:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
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Nazism's position on democracy as whole can be addressed at Talk:Fascism
There is a dispute as to whether fascism wholly rejected democracy or that it opposed conventional democracy - a majority rule representative democracy while claiming to support an authoritarian democracy. The discussion is at Talk:Fascism, it is already a bit heated, so be aware of what you are getting into.--R-41 (talk) 01:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Martin Luther's influence
I imagine someone coming to this page without any prior knowledge of the subject, and conclude that its information on Martin Luther is seriously misleading. Luther’s influence is greatly overstated. It almost seems as if the section Church and State has been written from a Catholic point of view (why does it suddenly jump from discussion of Nazi attitudes to religion to Bormann’s view of the role of priests in wartime Occupied Poland?). If one were to undertake a survey of the Nazi elite and, in particular, its concentration camp management, one would find that Bavarian and Austrian anti-Semites from the Catholic ‘Jewish deicide’ tradition, not the Lutheran, were heavily over-represented. Since Shirer’s ‘The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich’, there has always been a ‘Luther to Hitler’ school of history which has regarded the 16th-century Protestant reformer as a direct anti-Semitic precursor of the Nazi leader. Not without reason. It seems obvious that Luther’s anti-Semitic rant in his old age must have had some sort of a legacy, but I wouldn’t think it possible to measure its extent. Lucy Dawidowicz in her ‘The War Against The Jews’, thought that Luther had influenced modern anti-Semitism, and I wouldn’t argue with her statement that it is easy to draw a line between the two. However, intellectual history is by its nature highly conjectural and I would need to be convinced that Luther’s tirade against the Jews had been in some way institutionalised rather than just another example of the pan-European Christian rejection of Jewish integration down the centuries. Many commentators agree that Lutheranism may be responsible for an attitude of servility among German Protestants towards political authority in the past, but whether modern anti-Semitism can be directly attributed to religious (i.e. not racial) outpourings in the 16th century is less certain. Modern anti-Semitism, post-1789, had its roots in the 19th century as Jews became increasingly identified with capitalism (and later Socialism and Communism). Of course, that clearly built on the legacy of medieval anti-Semitism, but racial anti-Semitism was essentially a modern phenomenon created by new beliefs from the biological sciences. Nazis like Hitler and Streicher, and Lutherans like Sasse, revived Luther’s anti-Semitism in order to legitimate their own anti-Semitism historically by linking it to that of the past and resurrect or fortify the old prejudices. And in the period of the War of Liberation against Napoleon there was clearly a link between the notion of being a ‘German (Lutheran) Christian’ and not being a Jew, which implanted the widespread belief that Jews could not be part of German-Christian society. However, Professor MacCulloch’s idea that Luther’s call in the 16th century for the Jews to be driven out of their synagogues and banished was a blueprint for Kristallnacht strikes me as nothing short of ludicrous – as if historical circumstances four centuries apart have no weight. It is a churchman’s exaggerated view of the importance of intellectual history which I believe few serious historians would entertain. Not even Daniel Goldhagen went that far. Luther’s anti-Semitism was not ‘eliminationist’. Luther wrote, “What good can we do the Jews when we constrain them, malign them, and hate them as dogs? When we deny them work and force them to usury, how can that help? We should use towards the Jews not the pope’s but Christ’s law of love. If some are stiff-necked, what does that matter? We are not all good Christians.” The Church and State section of this article should be re-written by someone who is more competent in the subject. In the meantime, anyone wishing to explore the roots of modern anti-Semitism should consult Peter Pulzer’s ‘The Rise of Political Anti-Semitism in Germany and Austria’, London 1988. Kim Traynor (talk) 17:14, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- A footnote quotes an article by Johannes Wallmann in the Lutheran Quarterly (1987) saying, "The assertion that Luther's expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment have been of major and persistent influence in the centuries after the Reformation, and that there exists a continuity between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented anti-Semitism, is at present wide-spread in the literature; since the Second World War it has understandably become the prevailing opinion." Do you have any sources that question this statement about prevailing opinion? TFD (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- Problems: 1. The Roman Catholic Church pre-Luther was anti-Semitic, and 2. The base of the Nazi movement was in the Roman Catholic areas of Germany. Cites for both statements are available if you doubt them. Note also the ongoing concerns in the Jewish community about Pius XII and his apparent acceptance of anti-Semitism, John Cornwell, a historian of religious affairs, cites secret Vatican files, depositions and the pope's own files to support his conclusions in "Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII." is clear on this, and does not blame Luther for Pius XII's actions. Also A LONG HISTORY OF ANTI-SEMITISM, The Boston Globe (Boston, MA), July 4, 2005 contains: However, when Protestantism arose out of Catholicism; the one thing it did not reject from the parent religion was its anti-Semitism. Together, they tilled the soil for centuries in which the seeds of the Holocaust took root. It was no accident, nor an aberration of history, that the genocidal ideas and finally the actions of Hitler had so much cooperation throughout Europe. which is substantially contrary to the cite you use. Also consider New Testament's anti-Semitism not Holocaust trigger: Historians ponder Nazi genocide.(A), The Washington Times (Washington, DC), September 20, 1998 | Witham, Larry which has: Generations of negative Christian attitudes toward Jews set the stage, they said, but the Nazi program to eliminate Jews was "unpredictable" and driven by statism, eugenics, racism and rivalry with Jews in the German middle class. And further Martin Luther and German anti-Semitism: Graham Noble illustrates Luther's anti-Jewish views and distinguishes them from those of the Nazis. (The Unpredictable Past), History Review, March 1, 2002 | Noble, Graham contains: In early modern Europe, anti-Semitism was widespread. Jews were burned at the stake for a variety of imagined crimes, including the desecration of churches, infanticide and ritual castration. They were blamed for spreading plague and poisoning wells and were commonly reviled as lazy parasites. Frederick's policy in Saxony was part of a series of similar banishments, including Ferdinand's and Isabella's expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, which drove them further and further east in search of new homes. The intolerance of the medieval Christian Church had formed an unholy alliance with secular anti-Semites. Those who saw the Jews as heretics and Christ-killers found ready support amongst others who were suspicious of these curious, self-contained outsiders, whose speech and dress appeared so odd, and whose success in business was so enviable. All of which is somewhat in countervention to your assertion. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:34, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that Luther influenced German anti-Semitism. I am not disputing that. I am saying that this article is skewed wrongly in implying that his anti-Semitism was the basis of Nazi anti-Semitism. I agree with Wallmann if he says that Luther is not directly relevant to anti-Semitism in the 18th and 19th centuries. Re Collect’s comment: I don’t doubt your first two statements as you suggest. They agree with what I was saying, that Nazi anti-Semitism is more a South German-Austrian phenomenon. The Lutheran anti-Semitic tradition of North Germany provided it with fertile ground. I feel no disagreement with your following statements, but don’t see why you think they countervene my statement. I quoted Luther to show his anti-Semitism was not ‘eliminationist’, as was later racial anti-Semitism. Kim Traynor (talk) 20:21, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- The TFD's quote tells about "continuity" between between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented anti-Semitism. This is much softer statement than the thesis that Lutheran anti-Semitism was the basis of anti-Semitism. Therefore, I don't see any contradiction here. The only questionable thesis is the idea that, since Roman Catholicism was also anti-Semitic, we cannot draw connection between Luther and Nazism. I see no logic here.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:47, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- And I suppose you can tell me why Luther has such an influence on the Roman Catholic areas of Germany? In fact, where the Nazi base was? Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:05, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- The TFD's quote tells about "continuity" between between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented anti-Semitism. This is much softer statement than the thesis that Lutheran anti-Semitism was the basis of anti-Semitism. Therefore, I don't see any contradiction here. The only questionable thesis is the idea that, since Roman Catholicism was also anti-Semitic, we cannot draw connection between Luther and Nazism. I see no logic here.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:47, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
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