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"Consensus is a partnership between interested parties working positively for a common goal." -- Jimmy Wales

Consensus determinations

I have boldly removed the sentence from the "Determining consensus" section which heretofore read:

If the editors involved in a discussion are not able to agree on where the consensus lies, the determination is made by any uninvolved editor in good standing.

Having recently dealt with it at this discussion at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, I had reason to consider its implications and effects. I believe it to be deficient, if not pernicious, in two primary ways:

1. In an atmosphere where the community has never been willing to allow binding content arbitration or other binding content decisions, this provision does so in this instance. Not only does it do so, it allows it by a single, albeit uninvolved, user's decision with no opportunity for wider community evaluation or input. For example, though users are allowed to evaluate consensus for the purpose of closing Articles for deletion nominations, it is only after the solicitation of wide community input through listing them at AfD and even then the closing user's decision is subject to review through Deletion review. Here there's none of that: a single user with no neutrality or experience qualifications can make a determination which, by all appearances, is binding on all parties and which is not subject to any kind of review by the community, making it also vulnerable to canvassing and gaming the system. While such deficiencies can, of course, be corrected, it will be at the price of erecting an entirely new set of procedures and, likely, venues, which brings me to my next point.

2. How was consensus determined before this provision was added to this policy? (History: The deleted provision was discussed here, added here, and modified here to remove the suggestion that an admin ought to ordinarily make consensus determinations.) The discussion at the time this language was added implied that there was no determination or that determination was circular, requiring in effect a consensus about consensus. That discussion failed to recognize that in fact the absence of any procedure to determine consensus enforces the very notion of consensus: the existence or absence of consensus is something that should be so obvious that anyone editing against consensus is so clearly engaged in disruptive or tendentious editing that they will almost certainly be sanctioned if they persist in it. If there is any substantial doubt that sanctions would result, then consensus does not exist. To say it differently, we do not need a process to make consensus determinations because we already have one: ANI.

Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) | DR goes to Wikimania! 20:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, our process for determining consensus is at WP:CLOSE, not ANI. ANI is only about incidents that require admin support, which does not include all forms of consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:59, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Making more of a philosophical than practical distinction: Since WP:CLOSE is not a policy or guideline, it is not binding on anyone and the closer's decisions should not be, at the end of the day, any more than merely one more opinion in the consensus melange. To the extent that it has any additional weight, it should only be because it is made by a neutral party. (Just as the opinions rendered in dispute resolution also have persuasive but non-authoritative weight for that reason.) A decision at ANI (or similar forum) on whether or not a user who persists in editing against an apparent consensus is engaged in disruptive editing and is subject to sanction, is where, ultimately, the consensus determination will be finally made (or at least as finally as anything ever gets around here). Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) | DR goes to Wikimania! 21:32, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The dramaboards are among the worst places in the project to attempt to find "consensus". Nikkimaria (talk) 22:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I find I agree with every word here from TransporterMan. “If the editors involved in a discussion are not able to agree on where the consensus lies, the determination is made by any uninvolved editor in good standing” is not how we work. This sentence describes a loosely empowered “drive-by random dictator”. It is a method that has merits, the closed thing described in mainspace seems to be Random ballot. While it serves very well as a tiebreaker, it is a dangerous method. In this situation, it invites sockpuppets, meatpuppets and team taggers. It excuses the drive-by random dictator from having to defend his position, or demonstrate awareness in depth of the issues, because his action is authorised by a line in policy. It could encourage a culture of drive-by, superficial, arbitrary content-decision enforcement.

Neither WP:ANI nor WP:CLOSE involve determinations of consensus. WP:ANI deals with specific, behind-mainspace issues, usually involving specific editors. WP:ANI does not directly intervene in questions of content. WP:CLOSE does describe judging consensus, but this is only in the easy special cases where it means declaring and articulating an already demonstrated consensus. Beyond that, we have “rough consensus”, which is a different thing. Although WP:Rough consensus is appropriately linked from here, WP:Rough consensus is not a special case of WP:Consensus. WP:Rough consensus is about, universally I believe, closing a discussion that needs to be closed with a binary decision. Examples include deletion discussions, rename discussions, block/unblock discussions, privilege assignment discussions (RfA, RfB, RBA). As WP:Consensus is policy with direct application to content, more care should be taken to not generalise non-content decision making into content decision making.

Instead, the determination of where consensus lies can only be made with time, retrospectively. If the past decision works, and is unchallenged or not successfully challeneged, or if everyone continues to support the past decision, then the past decision represents consensus. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:46, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, do say. Sortition (found right at the bottom of random ballot) is an even more interesting proposition, philosophically, given a suitable context, rarely occurs. For instance, every seven years, let the May Queen or Best actor reign as absolute King, for say six months only, something like that. Then back to boring old 50-50 split elections. And so on NewbyG ( talk) 23:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Coming in late here, sorry. I was the one who brought this specific case to DRN (where I hoped that a clerk would determine consensus, but never mind). This was a situation in which there seemed to be no policy arguments, or indeed guideline, but was a subjective argument about whether an article should be in a specific category, in this case a category that prevented an article from being in a WMF pilot. The editor who originally placed the tag reverted anyone who removed it and it was my opinion that they were in a minority of one and that a number of editors disagreed. Transporterman, follwing the bit in the guideline he's now removed, maintained that the guideline required someone uninvolved to somehow appear and make a decision. Frankly, this seems pretty ridiculous. We need a way to stop one person from preventing action on an article when there are no policy or clear guideline provisions being breached. Dougweller (talk) 10:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

However, the weight of sheer numbers does not outweigh the strength of arguments (per WP:NOTAVOTE). After all, that's just asking for things like canvassing. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:43, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

The text appears to offer little guidance when there is no concensus

When there is no consensus the text:

In discussions of textual additions or editorial alterations, a lack of consensus commonly results in no change being made to the article at this time. However, for contentious matter related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of contentious matter.

Offers little guidance as it only states what is commonly done. To decide whether to remove the additions after a non-consensus determination itself requires consensus. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Is this one of those situations where there is debate (ie no consensus) as to whether a consensus exists? Blueboar (talk) 16:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Not quite, I'm thinking of the situation where text is removed following some concerns. If there is no consensus, let's say for arguments sake as determined by an admin close, then should the text be re-inserted or should it stay out? To do one or the other appears to need consensus or firm policy to say what should be done. There appears to be only general guidelines for this situation for what is done most often. Perhaps the language used should be toughened to say that in in all normal situations x should be done. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I support, first choice, leaving the provision as it is now, i.e. without "commonly" in the first sentence and with no second sentence, but if there is a strong feeling that something about BLP is needed, how about, second choice, "In discussions of textual additions or editorial alterations a lack of consensus results in no change being made to the article, except in the case of contentious matter related to living people in which case ] may apply." That way we don't have to get into the issue about unsourced being one case (in which consensus is irrelevant) and no consensus for sourced being another. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) | DR goes to Wikimania! 19:09, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we can make firm rules on this. A lot depends on the specific situation, and the specific question that is being asked when attempting to determine consensus... was the question focused more on removal, or focused more on inclusion? (ie were editors asked if there was a "consensus to remove", or were they instead asked if there was a "consensus to include". It's subtle, but these are not quite the same question. How you ask a question often influences the answers you get... and thus the action you should take based on those answers.) Another factor is whether the challenged material has been in the article for a long time, or was just recently added. Blueboar (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but in which case is the lack of consensus a reason to make a change? I think those cases are the exceptions, not the rule. --Ring Cinema (talk) 00:41, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It's more complicated than that. Even deciding which version is "the change" and which version is "no change" can be impossible. I think we can state, as a general observation of fact, that (in the easy cases) no consensus means no change for most types of article content, and no inclusion for BLP-regulated article content. But that's about it: a general description of the facts, and an acknowledgement that it's not always done this way. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

To continue from my last comment (and perhaps answer Ring's question)... my take is that if the material has been in the article for a long time, then "a no-consensus" determination should essentially be read as a "no-consensus to remove", and we should default to the long standing version - with the material. However, if the material has just recently been added, then a "no-consensus" should be read as being a "no-consensus to add". Again, we should default to the long standing version - in this case the version without the material. In other words, for a non-BLP a "no-consensus" over whether to keep/remove material defaults to the older version (which may or may not include the material). The exception to this is a BLP, where we take a more cautious stance... if there is no-consensus as to whether material is appropriate or not... take it out. Blueboar (talk) 22:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Assuming, of course, that there is any such "long-standing version", which there might not be, and that said "long-standing version" isn't impossibly flawed, e.g., a copyvio.

Ring, the simplest case for "the lack of consensus is a reason to make a change" is possible spam: all disputed external links get removed unless and until there is a positive consensus to include them. So in the case of a true no-consensus discussion about an external link, we always make a change by removing the disputed link. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The default

• The default in "no consensus" is the path of least prohibitions; after all, we are free to edit (subject to ArbCom rulings and Office Actions, we set our own rules - including WP:IAR). So it should be made clear that lack of consensus means that: for admin actions, the community in not deciding to approve it, decides as a community to take it back from the admin and undo what he/she has done (block, delete, lock, whatever) - so that freedom of action is enhanced. In deletions, we default to keep - because that too enhances freedom of the community. In rules, absent consensus to retain the rule, it goes - because that too enhances freedom of the community. We don't give precedent or who gets there first any real weight when a question of whether there is consensus to retain it is made. The only real exception seems to be English variety usage (where first variety seems to be default absent a strong reason to favor another variety, which no doubt garnered consensus to forestall endless edit wars that add nothing to the encyclopedia). I see little support for keeping any rule absent a current consensus to keep it; hence, rules and policies don't need consensus to be changed: they need to show current consensus to maintain their current form and where consensus is not shown, the rule is relaxed or removed to the extent that there is no consensus to maintain it. The wording should reflect that. Something like "Rules of prohibition (including deletion, blocking, and locking) must be established by consensus; they are only effective so long as there is current consensus to maintain them as written or employed. To the extent that there is a lack of consensus to maintain the rule or maintain the rule in certain situations, the rule to that extent is not valid and the prohibition should be removed (or the certain situation documented as an exception to the rule) to prevent the enforcement of a rule lacking consensus." Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:20, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

In the spirit of the above post, and that we document in Misplaced Pages policies what best practice can be discerned at present : that is policy pages reflect the best consensus we can discern and the page does not determine policy, until it is followed, it is a guide.

Ah, no change to the current words there then, and my second preference to the above preliminary draft. We do not appear to have a formed consensus here at the moment for instance on this ticklish matter, perhaps further discussion will unearth a pearl. NewbyG ( talk) 19:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you assume that consensus will always favor freedom for others, Carlossuarez. That is probably not going to stand up to scrutiny unless consensus is identified with unanimity. Many prohibitions preserve freedom and other positive values. Some rules guarantee freedom. Some freedoms are rightly circumscribed in the service of our mission or norms. So, I wouldn't necessarily accept that any proscription requires continuous consensus. An established rule should be preserved until there is a consensus to remove it. --Ring Cinema (talk) 20:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Which prohibitions, absent consensus, guarantee freedom here? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Carlos, I'm not sure whether you are proposing a change here or are asserting that this is the way that it is already done. The idea that "In rules, absent consensus to retain the rule, it goes" would seem to fly in the face of the longstanding statement at Misplaced Pages:Consensus#Level_of_consensus that, "Misplaced Pages has a higher standard of participation and consensus for changes to policies and guidelines than to other types of articles. This is because they reflect established consensus, and their stability and consistency are important to the community." The position you've quoted means that anyone can challenge any policy or guideline and if no consensus forms to keep it, then it goes, notwithstanding issues of whether the challenge was merely overlooked or that people thought it too silly or too unlikely to be supported to comment on it, among other reasons that consensus to retain it might not come together. To allow that is contrary to the notion that stability and consistency are important. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) | DR goes to Wikimania! 22:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Carlos' bold-faced text above strikes me as a statement of how he wishes it worked, not a statement of the way that it is already done. It isn't done this way: the English Misplaced Pages does not favor freedom for volunteers. It favors the status quo. Removing an existing prohibition requires every bit as much consensus as establishing a new one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

For Policy and guideline changes... there are really three outcomes in any discussion over change: 1) Solid consensus supporting a proposed change, 2) Solid consensus opposed to a proposed change, and 3) "No consensus". My take is that a "No consensus" means that the long standing version no longer enjoys a solid consensus. It should be seen as an indication that a change is needed... but not the specific change that was proposed. So policy editors must continue to work towards a version that does gain a positive consensus. The "long standing" version is "default" retained pending the emergence of a new version with a clear consensus (but the long standing version should also be tagged with "under discussion", so editors arriving at the page know that concerns exist and are being discussed.)

That said... all this implies that an actual discussion took place. One person disagreeing with a policy or guideline is not enough to say there is "no consensus". Blueboar (talk) 23:35, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It's interesting to note that many policies and guidelines originated and were adopted without any consensus - and moreover, nearly all of them have not had each and every provision discussed and consensus secured. Requiring a new and different consensus to overturn a prior one is WP:BUREAUCRACY and would purely be a demonstration that policies and guidelines are to be retained solely because they once had consensus. We don't do that generally at WP. For example: A consensus forms to delete an article at WP:AFD. It reappears, in exact form, is nominated for deletion and this time no consensus is reached. Guess what - we don't revert to the prior consensus (deletion); we keep the article! Another example, if an article was once considered a featured article, but upon discussion the current version cannot achieve a consensus that the article remains FA - it loses its FA status, rather than relying upon prior consensus to retain it. Why do we do this? I submit, this is because, without consensus any rule we impose upon ourselves loses its validity. Our guidelines are not a law book that accumulates useless rules that have no pertinence or applicability.

The reason why consensus cannot be achieved may be because none of the choices the community considered at the time was strong enough - and as Blueboar says, something may need changing, but not necessarily to what was on offer at the moment. A cautionary note should be placed in the policy or guideline to reflect that community's lack of consensus on what to do and alert those so inclined from relying on the policy or guideline to restrict other editors' freedom/block them/or delete things based upon it - until such time as consensus emerges on what to change it to. And I wholeheartedly agree with Blueboar that consensus is not imposed by one nor precluded by non unanimous support. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

What you are describing, Carlos, is the simple fact that consensus can change. This fact means that something could well have enjoyed a strong community consensus at one point in the past... and yet may no longer enjoy a strong consensus today. Blueboar (talk) 01:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

That consensus is not unanimity has been stated in the first paragraph for a long time. I think we are all aware of that from reading the policy page. I don't exactly agree that this project has elements that lack consensus. I am pretty sure that is false. Neither do I agree that policies and guidelines are retained solely because they once had consensus; to the contrary, that is exactly what the policies reflect: the products of past consensus. Virtually every page on Misplaced Pages enjoys either a consensus or isn't edited. (FA status is not lost because of lack of consensus; rather "Featured articles can only be demoted through a consensus derived through discussion at the Featured article review page." (See here.) So a new consensus changes the status.) For good reasons, changes to Misplaced Pages pages require consensus of the editors. Any time there is not a consensus, there is always the possibility of forming a consensus later. --Ring Cinema (talk) 02:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Policies and guidelines were originated

many policies and guidelines originated and were adopted without any consensus

This is false. If there was no consensus to adopt these pages, then the pages would not have remained tagged as policies and guidelines. What you probably mean is something like "many policies and guidelines originated and were adopted without any long discussions on their talk pages, in which dozens of editors !voted on specific questions like 'Shall we tag this page as a policy?', so that there would be written documentation of the community's views (at that time) available to editors in the future."

You don't need written documentation of the existence of a consensus to have an actual consensus. If you do something sensible, and (nearly) everyone agrees with you (as proven by the fact that they saw what you did and never objected or reverted it), then there is actually a valid consensus for your actions. It's the community's agreement, not the discussion, that makes the consensus exist.

Let me give you a concrete and currently contentious example: Last year, someone tried to claim that there had never been consensus to include the phrase "verifiability, not truth" at WP:V, because he couldn't find written proof of a discussion about it in WT:V's archives before the phrase was added. There certainly was a consensus to include that phrase: it was added and remained there for years, on a page currently watched by more than 1,400 editors. Merely existing in such circumstances is proof that there was a valid consensus for that particular phrase (back then: the consensus may well have changed since then). Discussion is not necessary for consensus; agreement is. If you've got agreement, no matter how that agreement is expressed (including silently), then you have consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:20, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

You don't always need written documentation of consensus - but long standing material that has been out there in a certain way does not necessarily mean that consensus ever gelled in that direction. No doubt the various pages at issue in the Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Abortion_article_titles are watched by lots of wikipedians but alas, no one would be having a RFC requested by ARBCOM if there were consensus on the naming of those articles. I also dispute that a page currently watched by 1,400 editors has any real bearing on whether there was consensus back then when it wasn't watched by 1,400 editors. In any event, the issue is what to do when there is no consensus "now" - regardless of whether there had been in the past - and the trend at WP is to remove impediments that no longer enjoy consensus. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:30, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I simply do not agree that the trend at WP is to remove impediments that no longer enjoy consensus. It would be just as true to say that the trend is to remove freedoms that no longer enjoy consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:04, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, both cases can certainly be asserted and argued. NewbyG ( talk) 22:27, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not seeing that; give some examples where freedoms are curtailed even when there is no consensus to curtail them (absent as I have said ARBCOM & Office Actions, which are not community self-regulation). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:31, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

How could there be such examples when decisions of all kinds are made by consensus? Similarly, removing prohibitions requires consensus, not simply the absence of a consensus to retain them (whatever that might mean in practice, which practice itself would be problematic to define). --Ring Cinema (talk) 00:55, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The community sets its own rules. The rules remain solely while the community has consensus to retain them; not until there is a consensus to remove them. This is clear by all manners in which we do things here. No prohibition without consensus is valid. Freedoms need no consensus; it's the encyclopedia that anyone can edit; we don't need consensus to permit someone to edit. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:02, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Everything needs consensus. To give an example of a freedom being removed for lack of consensus, editors once had the freedom not to source BLPs. We no longer do—because there was no longer a consensus that this freedom is desirable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:50, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

All changes are made by consensus, including changes to rules and policies instituted by consensus. There's not a special category of "freedom" that operates differently or requires some kind of perpetual consensus to maintain. --Ring Cinema (talk) 05:07, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

We are talking about two different things here... 1) determining whether proposed language has gained consensus, and thus should be added, or 2) determining whether preexisting language has lost consensus, and thus should be removed. Carlos seems to be talking about the latter. Blueboar (talk) 18:28, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, which is what the guidance we need to document in "no consensus" situations, which is what this whole chat is about. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:49, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
  • The only confusion may be that case 2 is not a situation where any action is in order. First a proposal would have to be made to remove the passages and then the usual consensus policy operates. If there's not a consensus to remove, no change and the passages remain; if the proposal has a consensus, then it's removed. That is not the situation described by Carlossuarez, who seems to posit a category of "freedom" that is subject to a different form. Not only is there not such an exception, I have no idea how that category would be defined if we wanted to make it policy. --Ring Cinema (talk) 05:07, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

• Actually, that's bureaucracy not WP. Nothing is written in stone until something of a sand blast of consensus rewrites it. Rather it is written and remains so only so long as consensus remains to keep it. There is no status quo which needs to change to change the wording of policies. Let's say we have a policy that says "Never use the word 'ain't". Let's even say a consensus adopted it. Let's say that an editor or editors claims that the policy no longer has consensus and wants to use 'ain't'. The policy is discussed to see if there is consensus: if there is NO CONSENSUS; the prohibitive policy is removed - those who want to "change it" needn't muster a consensus to change it, but merely show that the policy no longer enjoys consensus support. Consensus can change also means that consensus may dissolve. Only a bureaucracy enshrines and perpetuates rules solely because they currently exist and WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:40, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Sure, but the converse is also true: Let's say we have a policy that says "You have the freedom to use the word 'ain't" whenever you want". Let's even say a consensus adopted it. Let's say that an editor or editors claims that the policy no longer has consensus and wants to remove ain't from all articles. The policy is discussed to see if there is consensus: if there is NO CONSENSUS, then the freedom-loving policy is removed.

It's exactly the same standard for both "freedoms" and "prohibitions". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:02, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Not so. All is permitted save that which isn't. A positive statement that you have freedom to do X that loses its consensus IS NOT a decision that the freedom is gone; because freedom is the default. After all, I see no consensus that User:WhatamIdoing may edit? Can I now block you since there is no consensus - hardly. LOL. Rules that constrain us are of our own creation, and end absent consensus to continue them; those which free us are no more than restating the obvious, which remains until we decide to constrain ourselves by consensus - whether still written or not. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:25, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you're mistaken. If 'ain't' is forbidden by consensus, permitting 'ain't' only happens by a new consensus. Prohibitions and freedoms (whatever that means, and I'm sure you couldn't explain the distinction) are treated the same. Changes from the status quo require consensus. --Ring Cinema (talk) 20:49, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's right, because ain't or ain't ain't is a fairly trivial change, but it doesn't appear to be what user:Carlossuarez46 is getting at. Where we do strike a bit of trouble though is the situation described here, where an issue is discussed, a decision made, and then sometime later, a week, a month, a day, a certain number of editors begin to come to the conclusion that the decision may no longer enjoy consensus, and the issue must be discussed again. I will suggest that how often we can take the time to discuss again, and how many editors it takes to show that discussion is necessary, is not related to whether the decision signifies a "freedom"or a "prohibition", but rather the important factor to calculate is how difficult will it be if we have to change the decision? If it is easy to change tack, then we can debate often (if we want to); however, if the decision will be very difficult to reverse, then we have a "status quo" that has a lot going for it. NewbyG ( talk) 22:04, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

With respect, you are not defending Carlossuarez's position or making the same point. Sure, there may be cases where editors reconsider things. I've been in that situation and realized that I had to find like-minded editors and form a new consensus. That is not the same as saying, Hey, the consensus from February doesn't exist any more because here we are in March and we have an issue of freedom and therefore what we agreed to no longer applies. It doesn't work that way. That's just an editor whose word isn't good. And, of course, there is no special category of freedom that is an exception to some of the policies of consensus. --Ring Cinema (talk) 03:10, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I thought Newbyguesses' "yes" meant that he agreed with you (Ring).

Carlos's assertion that "freedom is the default" is simply wrong. I doubt that any amount of talk here (or anywhere else, for that matter) will convince him that his view is not correct, though, so perhaps we should just stop talking about it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 11:43, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I have been involved in editing policy pages for a long time now, and have discovered that consensus on policy does indeed change over time... a policy statement that used to have consensus might not have consensus anymore. However, such shifts in consensus happen slowly, and there is often a certain amount of time during which the community will be fairly evenly split as to its opinion on the policy statement in question. It is during this period that very heated debates take place, with both sides claiming that their view of the issue reflects consensus, and the other side's view does not reflect consensus. In fact, neither view reflects consensus, because at this point there simply IS no consensus. However, it is important to remember that "No consensus" does not mean the same thing as "Consensus against".

The problem is that consensus is a sliding scale... not a clear cut "yes/no" duality. At one end of that scale is a zone marked "''Consensus for X". At the other end is a zone marked "Consensus against X"... but there is a large grey zone between the two.... a zone marked "NO consensus about X". It is when a policy statement is in that middle zone that the contention arises. Blueboar (talk) 22:33, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorting the See Also section

1. The see also section contains quite a lot; Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot should be linked somewhere, then removed from see also. Any other editors care to discuss whether some items need sorting? NewbyG ( talk) 22:44, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

No, on second thought the list appears about right, with fourteen items and also three articles linked there. NewbyG ( talk) 18:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

1. -
2. The change to 2 February 2012 is a tribute to the good faith efforts of many editors, and a vindication of the method of consensus NewbyG ( talk) 19:15, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

See also

Information pages and Misplaced Pages essays concerning consensus:

• Misplaced Pages:Binding content discussions
• Misplaced Pages:Closing discussions
• Misplaced Pages:Compromise
• Misplaced Pages:Consensus doesn't have to change
• Misplaced Pages:Don't revert due to "no consensus"
• Misplaced Pages:How to contribute to Misplaced Pages guidance
• Misplaced Pages:False consensus
• Misplaced Pages:IPs are human too
• Misplaced Pages:Method for consensus building
• Misplaced Pages:No consensus
• Misplaced Pages:Rough consensus
• Misplaced Pages:Silence and consensus; cf. Misplaced Pages:Silence means nothing
• Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot
• Misplaced Pages:What is consensus?

Articles concerning consensus

• Consensus decision-making
• False consensus effect
• Truth by consensus

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Chaning the default action for "no consensus" blocks

The current wording here is "When actions by administrators are contested and the discussion results in no consensus either for the action or for reverting the action, the action is normally reverted." A proposal at Misplaced Pages talk:Blocking policy#Relisting seeks to change that (again). ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:22, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

New guideline proposal

Misplaced Pages:Avoiding talk-page disruption proposes a new guideline related to this one. Its adoption is presently under discussion using an RfC located here. Please comment. Brews ohare (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Invitation to comment

Matters related to this article are discussed in the essay WP:Avoiding talk-page disruption and an RfC has been posted requesting comments here. Please provide your advice. Brews ohare (talk) 16:11, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

A request for assistance with a consensus matter

I come here with a request:

Within a content dispute at Template:Music of Canada is nested another dispute over:

1) Whether or not the content currently in question ever had consensus to be there prior to the commencement of the present dispute.

The content was first added in June 2010. Approximately six months later (December 2010), it was challenged by being deleted, a move that was itself almost immediately countered, both by revert and at the talk page, by five editors (including myself), and had no supporters other than the editor who made the deletion. That editor backed off until making the same deletion again in July 2011 (which was again immediately reverted) and it stayed thusly until the same challenging editor made the same deletion in February 2012, sparking the current ongoing dispute.

Did the reverts and disputation of the deletion in December 2010 establish a consensus for inclusion of the material? And does the fact the material existed in the template for 19 months (except for the two aforementioned, quickly reverted deletions) give the material additional consensus through silence?

2) If, prior to the most recent challenge and resulting dispute, the material had consensus for inclusion, is it the status quo and should it stay in the template until a new consensus is established and that consensus is to delete it?

If some with experience with the rules surrounding consensus could provide answers to the above questions, it would help to significantly lessen the complexity of the overall content dispute at Template talk:Music of Canada. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:55, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Please don't fall for the false dilemma presented above. You have more choices than two and there is more evidence to explore than is presented above.

Six months, in terms of the template was two edits later, with the next edit nearly four months later. That removal was part of a clean-up of the template by a long-time editor of that article. M then restored it immediately as he is on Misplaced Pages promoting Monarchist and British POV onto Canadian articles on a daily basis. It was removed two hours after being restored. At this point it's the start of a content dispute and edit war with a third long-time editor referencing bold and revert. No discussion ensued but the editor who removed the entry returned and started another edit war over the item. Please view the background.

I contend at this point that an irregular contributor took issue with the addition immediately and was pushed out by regular editors. I became involved in February of this year when a third edit war ensued and the two editors were found in collusion on the editor's talk page over the subject.

For the record, I too am Canadian and am pro-monarchy, but am not a monarchist.

In short, MIESIANIACAL is claiming that silence is consensus, and the silence was created by two editors who appear to collude on the matter, or at least work together in some sort of cabal. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:24, 11 April 2012 (UTC)