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	Elvis Presley is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 8, 2012.
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POP ICON

Elvis Presley is also a pop icon as described in this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Pop_icon

The information should be added in the second sentence:

"A cultural icon" - "A cultural icon and pop icon" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernio48 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, it is 'opinion' not 'information'. Secondly, and more importantly, if someone is a 'cultural icon' (which seems a reasonable enough opinion to hold about Elvis) because of his music, the description of him as a 'pop icon' is redundant - or possibly wrong, given that his iconic status goes beyond just 'pop'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:11, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Sources

Boing! said Zebedee reverted me saying that my sources "do not speak of other 14 year old girls". I disagree because of the following two sources:

• Priscilla caught Elvis’s very grownup eye when she was just fourteen, only a year or two older than the boys that Michael Jackson was accused of sexually molesting., Scientific American
• "Jackie Rowland, 14... 14 was his magical age...Frances Forbes...when I was 14, he noticed me.. Gloria Mowel and Heidi Heissen, both also at that 'magical' age" Daily Mail

On my talk page, BsZ said Daily Mail is generally not a reliable source but Daily Mail has not been blacklisted, plus is used repeatedly accross wikipedia, so that statement is disputable. Pass a Method talk 18:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest that you raise the matter at WP:RS/N. I certainly see little merit in using the Daily Mail as a source for anything controversial. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Wholesale reverts are quite frustrating because you dont know whether the editor disagrees with part of the edit or the entire edit. Pass a Method talk 18:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I disagreed with a large amount of it, much of which was blatantly poorly sourced WP:SYNTH - if you don't want to be reverted, the onus is on you to not do that. I'll address your recent addition in some detail tomorrow, after I've had some sleep -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

By the way i found more sources for 14 year old girls;

• four 14 year olds Pass a Method talk 23:19, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how we can take a book that makes assertions about what Elvis said to himself when he was alone ('"I ain't out of the army a week and they wanna put me right back in" sighed Presley') too seriously as a reliable source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:07, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Except we have to find legitimate reasons to consider it unreliable, not our opinions on how it's written. It's published by the Greenwood Publishing Group, so no issues there. It states it is a biography, so however much that stands for, there's that.

Actually, nevermind, while the Elvis Information Network isn't a reliable source themselves, they make a convincing case for the unreliability of the biography. Silverseren 01:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Elvis and fourteen year olds

This is news to me. Was Elvis known for his relationship with 14 year olds? Have any of Elvis' biographers mentioned this? This seems like a rather controversial point. We certainly should not rush to including it in the article. This section is intended to open a "slow" discussion on the point. Our task is to demonstrate that this issue has solid secondary sources. If it doesn't, then we need to find them before including such info in the article. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 19:59, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

It does not appear to have been well documented. All of the information i'm finding says that because Elvis' manager made sure to keep everything covered up, it never turned into a controversy (which would be why there's little info on it). Silverseren 21:31, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes - the source for this seems to be Kathleen Tracy's Elvis biography, which seems anything but a credible source - furthermore, as was pointed out at WP:BLP/N, this may involve living individuals, so we'd have to be careful what detail we include, even if we can find better sources. I'd suggest that if Tracy's book and other sensationalist sources are all we have to back this up, it is best not included. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Kathleen Tracy is a popular biographer, accomplished and noted for focusing on entertainment subjects. She is a journalist and a writer, not a scholar, but she is not unreliable as a source. Underscoring Tracy's interpretation is Alanna Nash's version of Elvis, taken from several of her books. Nash rehashes some of the Byron Raphael stuff that they published in Playboy in 2005. This story has Elvis into heavy petting with young virgins (pages 182 and 231 of Baby, Let's Play House) and hanging around 14-year-old girls in swimsuits around the pool and playing in their pajamas at night. Girls such as Gloria Mowel, Frances Forbes and Heidi Heissen (page 209 of Baby, Let's Play House, also "The King's Troubling Obsession" by David Leafe in the Daily Mail.) Forbes said 13 was insufficient "...but when I was fourteen he noticed me. Fourteen was a magical age with Elvis." (The preceding quote appears in four books including Rose Clayton's Elvis Up Close: In the Words of Those Who Knew Him Best and The Elvis Encyclopedia.) And of course there's Priscilla Ann Beaulieu who Elvis met when she was 14. Albert Goldman wrote of the pajama parties in his 1981 book, Elvis. Goldman wrote, "Elvis had a great gift for disarming parents and persuading them that though their fourteen-year-old daughters spent a lot of time in his bedroom, nothing improper was going on." There's an article in September 1990 Penthouse called "Elvis's Secret Sex Films" in which one of Elvis's inner circle—distant cousin Earl Greenwood—wrote about the home movies Elvis made of his parties with young girls; five nights of films including orgies with fourteen-year-olds. Greenwood said these films were seized by Colonel Tom Parker and used to blackmail Elvis into giving Parker a huge percentage. Greenwood said the same in his 1990 book The boy who would be king, written with Kathleen Tracy. Tracy refers to this movie-making incident on page 107 of Elvis Presley: a biography. Columnist Liz Smith wrote about it in August 1990: "Poor Elvis Presley". Smith says of Greenwood's theory, "it makes some sense."

Greenwood's material about Elvis has been quoted by other biographers such as Rose Clayton, by the Gregorys in their When Elvis Died, and also by Tony Gentry in Elvis Presley (1994, Chelsea House).

This material is out in the public domain and ought to be addressed. I don't think it should be avoided. Binksternet (talk) 04:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Dear Binksternet, There have been more books written on Elvis Presley than any other entertainer,and for that reason you have to take extreme care on who you choose as a reliable source and sadly there's not that many. Mentioning Earl Greenwood as being a reliable source on Elvis Presley,is like saying Ian Halperin is a reliable source for Michael Jackson. To me these two authors are best describled as unscrupulous individuals with a vivid imagination. Please do yourself a favour and get yourself a copy of "Revelations Of The Memphis Mafia" by Alanna Nash,read it and then you will understand the topics you have brought forward in its proper contents,okay!--Jaye9 (talk) 11:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree that Misplaced Pages's guideline about reliable sources must flex in the face of many books written about Elvis. I am not trying to say that Greenwood is right, I am simply saying that he has been published, and commented upon, and that his version is part of the public dialog about Elvis. Binksternet (talk) 16:32, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Then find other sources that support this 'public dialog' in a meaningful way. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Liz Smith... Binksternet (talk) 19:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Columnist Liz Smith? Wrote as you pointed out,about Greenwood' theory about Parker had seized these supposed films and used them to Blackmail Elvis into giving Parker a huge percentage and Smith goes on to say "It makes some sense". Well that's the first time I've heard that one and she lost me right there. It reminds me of these conspiracy theorist and these wild things they come up with and they have nothing to back it up with. When you speak of Elvis and fourteen year old girls,it was pretty prevelant in certain parts of the South in those days. It has been said many times that Presley was drawn to 14,15 & 16 year old girls during the early days of his career. As these girls were virgins and made good potential wifes. Someone he could mould into the ideal women. Unlike the girls he met on the road. Quite simply he would not have married them. And it has also been said,during this period he proposed to quite a few of these young girls. I might add,back in 1948,Country singer Loretta Lyn married "Doo" Lyn in Kentucky three months shy of her 13th birthday and yes it was legal. What I am trying to explain is whether we agree with this pratice or not,it is not for us to judge,but more to understand that this is what people did in these parts of the south. It is there culture and Elvis was a part of that culture.--Jaye9 (talk) 04:32, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. In Georgia for instance, the age of consent wasn't raised from 14 to 16 until 1995: Age_of_consent_reform#Georgia.2C_USA. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:42, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

There can be no doubt that Elvis's relationships with girls were kind of infantile. This comes as no surprize. Peter Guralnick writes, "Elvis grew up a loved and precious child. He was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." Throughout her life, "the son would call her by pet names, they would communicate by baby talk." Gilbert B. Rodman calls Elvis "the dutiful mama's boy" and mentions, with reference to Guralnick, "the humble modesty of a Dixie-bred mama's boy: In many ways I am sure that the picture is accurate, and it undoubtedly conforms to the image that Elvis Presley had of himself."

Furthermore, Guralnick describes Elvis as a very shy person, as a "kid who had spent scarcely a night away from home in his nineteen years" and who was teased by his fellow classmates: "My older brother went to school with him," recalled singer Barbara Pittman, "and he and some of the other boys used to hide behind buildings and throw things at him - rotten fruit and stuff - because he was different, because he was quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." These early experiences had a deep influence on his clumsy advances to girls. According to Guralnick, he loved playing with the girls and teasing them, but "it didn't go too far. ... In between shows at the auditorium he would peek out from behind the curtain, then, when he spotted someone that he liked, swagger over to the concession stand, place his arm over her shoulder, and drape his other arm around someone else, acting almost like he was drunk, even though everyone knew he didn't drink." It is no wonder then that Elvis's early girlfriends June Juanico and Judy Spreckels say they had no sexual relationships with Presley.

Concerning the adult singer, Guralnick writes that when Elvis "got bored he just had to tell the guys to hunt up some girls in the lobby of the hotel. He would have them brought up to the suite, offered one observer, "and Elvis would go in the other room, he'd go in the bedroom or somewhere, and then when they came back with the girls, the girls would sit there for maybe ten or fifteen minutes, and finally one of the cousins would go in the bedroom and come out himself and another ten minutes would go by - and then in would come Elvis. And there would be like a silence, and then the cousins would say, 'Oh, Mary Jane, this is Elvis,' and the girls would be totally gone." For the most experienced girls it wasn't like with other Hollywood stars or even with other more sophisticated boys they knew. They offered to do things for him, but he wasn't really interested. What he liked to do was to lie in bed and watch television and eat and talk all night—the companionship seemed as important for him as the sex—and then in the early-morning hours they would make love . "He had an innocence at that time", said one of them. "I'm sure it didn't last. But what he really wanted was to have a relationship, to have company."

In their Playboy article, "In Bed with Elvis" (November 2005), Byron Raphael and Alanna Nash have stated that "the so-called dangerous rock-and-roll idol was anything but a despotic ruler in the bedroom ... He was far more interested in heavy petting and panting and groaning" and "he would never put himself inside one of these girls ... within minutes he’d be asleep." According to Goldman, the reason for "never normal sexual relations with these girls" was that "Elvis was a voyeur. What he sought as his erotic goal was a group of girls who would agree to strip down to their panties and wrestle with each other..."

According to Alan Fortas, who knew the singer well, "Elvis needed someone to baby more than he needed a sex partner. He craved the attention of someone who adored him without the threat of sexual pressure, much as a mother would." Furthermore, "Elvis befriended some of the young girls who used to cluster adoringly in his driveway, or outside the fence ... Some of the girls were as young as fourteen. Fortas said they were frequent houseguests who attended his concerts as part of 'Elvis's personal traveling show.' Out in the backyard, they romped with Elvis in the Doughboy pool and challenged him to watermelon-seed spitting contests. They also slipped into his bedroom ... for rambunctious pillow fights. Sometimes they would all sit cross-legged with him on the bed, flipping through his fan magazines or admiring his stuffed-animal collection. Often they would all lie down together and cuddle. But what went on was horseplay, not foreplay."

More importantly, Elvis indeed had relationships with very young women. Priscilla was only 14 years old when the singer began dating her. He was 24, and at that time, he even had a younger girl living in his house, says Elvis’s first guitarist and manager, Scotty Moore. Therefore, authors such as Goldman have gone so far as to call Presley a "pedophile". According to this author, "Elvis plays the strutting, overbearing macho in public, but in private he loves nothing better than to roughhouse with teenage girls with whom he exchanges beauty secrets. His basic erotic image is a crotch covered with white panties and showing a bit of pubic hair -- an image no different essentially from male to female." Alanna Nash also confirms that the singer had a predilection for young adolescent girls. Her book, 'Baby, Let's Play House': Elvis Presley and the Women Who Loved Him (2010), reveals a need in Presley to play Pygmalion and father to very young girls, whom he delighted in making over. A late-blooming "Mama's boy," she argues, young Elvis was a flop with girls and super-religious. Because of a fear of sexually transmitted diseases he wouldn't actually go "inside" women, never undressed, and was more into watching elaborate tableaux, often involving feet.

"What Elvis projected through his epoch-making act," Goldman adds, "was not just the enormous sexual excitement of puberty but its androgynous quality. Much of Elvis' power over young girls came not just from the act that he embodied their erotic fantasies but that he likewise projected frankly feminine traits with which they could identify. ... When you dig down to the sexual roots of an Elvis Presley, you sense a profound sexual ambivalence." Onefortyone (talk) 20:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Onefortyone, where do you find all this disgusting trash? Elvis is dead, so it's proper now to leave this kind of scurrilous rubbish in the dumpster where it belongs. It's just not right to keep going on and on about pubic hair and lace panties. The article just starts sliding downhill once it starts moving in your direction. Give it a rest. Santamoly (talk) 11:25, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe we should mention it in the article, one way or another, because it is talked about in his biographies. Either it can be a subtle mention in the lede, or it can be something similar to this edit, which was reverted by an editor who wants more discussion + a more reliable source. Pass a Method talk 11:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don't know where you were raised up, but where I live we don't speak ill of the dead. We all wipe our arses, but we can stop talking about it once we're dead. The stuff you dredge up is totally disgusting and doesn't belong anywhere but in the National Enquirer. The article is bad enough without adding in your creepy obsessions. Santamoly (talk) 17:36, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

You'd be surprised to learn that Misplaced Pages has more respect for the living than the dead. There's no special rules for a biography of a dead person but the living get WP:BLP protection. We at Misplaced Pages are more concerned with reliable sources, verifiability, and proper weight than with respect for the dead. Binksternet (talk) 05:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

My question is: Do these so-called "biographies" have sources listed in them? If not, I don't think they should be considered reliable. And even if they do, that doesn't mean that it's true, and it doesn't mean that this type of salacious material should be included in a Wiki article. --Musdan77 (talk) 19:48, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear... In the blue corner we have user Onefortyone who reappears after a well-earned rest after seeing an opportunity to push his well-worn agenda regarding Presley's sex life. I wonder if he'll resurrect previous claims that Presley was gay, had sex with his Mom and had oral sex with some dude in the 1950s. And in the red corner we have user Santamoly who thinks the current article is already unacceptably seedy, even though it contains little of such tosh and even though it's a Featured Article. Go figure. Past experience suggests neither will make meaningful contributions here, but may well drive everyone else nuts. I hope they prove me wrong. Rikstar 22:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

←First, Happy birthday, Elvis (yesterday). Whether these stories are true or not, I think everyone—particularly those who have bad thoughts about Elvis—should read this article, especially the next to last paragraph, which quotes him. Thank you. --Musdan77 (talk) 03:51, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Propose

I propose adding this sentence. Do you support or oppose? Pass a Method talk 15:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support I think it is a moderate compromise to the above dispute Pass a Method talk 15:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• Absolutely not As was already explained to Silver Seren in edit summary, one sentence in a newspaper article on Michael Jackson is not the high-quality sourcing this FA requires. Furthermore, not all "disputes" requires "compromise"; some "disputes" amount to little more than hot air and the best thing to do is allow them to slowly dissipate. DocKino (talk) 16:42, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Here are some additional sources: in her book, The Colonel: The Extraordinary Story of Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis Presley (2003), Alanna Nash cites Memphis Mafia member Lamar Fike who remembers that Priscilla showed up at the house that first night wearing a blue-and-white sailor suit and white socks. "I said, 'God Almighty, Elvis, she's cute as she can be, but she's fourteen years old. We'll end up in prison for life.' I watched that from the very beginning with abject fear." Nash adds "that a chaperoned Priscilla would live on nearby Hermitage Road with Vernon and his new wife, Dee. That arrangement lasted only a matter of weeks, Priscilla slipping back and forth between the houses. With Grandma Minnie Mae Presley serving as lenient watchdog, the teenager soon took up residence at Graceland... During Presley's army years, Parker had steadfastly refused to allow Elvis's most serious girlfriend, Anita Wood, to travel to Germany to see him. ("We had to keep everything so quiet ... the Colonel said it would hurt his career.") But though the Colonel took an unusual liking to Priscilla, he was furious at such a Lolita-like setup. Elvis was now twenty-eight years old, with twelve years' difference in their ages. Not so long before, in a redneck hormone storm, the piano-pounding Jerry Lee Lewis had ruined his career by marrying his underage cousin. This situation wasn't nearly as dangerous, but if discovered, it would still be a scandal, and Presley's movie contracts had morals clauses in them - a fact, along with paternity suits, that was never far from Parker's mind." (p.205-206)

According to Albert Goldman, "Elvis never had normal sexual relations with these girls. The reason? Elvis was a voyeur. What he sought as his erotic goal was a group of girls who would agree to strip down to their panties and wrestle with each other while Elvis stared out his eyes with a rocklike hard-on pressing up against his underwear. He accounted for this obsession by recalling an incident from his childhood: a moment when he had seen two little girls tumbling together on the ground with their dresses rising to show their crotches. In fact, with the fine-focus characteristic of his kind, what Elvis described as his ultimate fulfillment was not the sight of the girls or even the crotch but the vision of black pubic hairs protruding around the edges of white panties. Out of all the sexual excitements in the world, this one teasing image represented the ultimate in arousal to Elvis." (Goldman, Elvis, p.338)

Interestingly, there are also several photos showing Elvis’s predilection for very young girls, for example

• 14-year-old Dixie Locke. See .
• 15-year-old Siegried Schutz. See

These girls were much younger than 18 when Elvis dated them. This certainly supports Goldman’s opinion that the girls Elvis liked were "as young as possible, certainly no older than eighteen" – or you might say: much younger than eighteen, or fourteen such as Priscilla, or even younger than fourteen as the girl Scotty Moore mentioned in his book. Onefortyone (talk) 00:42, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

What 'you might say' is of no consequence, and given the WP:BLP considerations (these women may well be still alive), none of this speculation is relevant - and may itself be a violation of WP:BLP, which applies to talk pages too. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:12, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support I'm the one that added that sentence in the first place. I feel that it is not a controversial sentence to include and all the sources I found stated that the manager did this cover-up. If readers want to take away some sort of implication out of that, that's up to them, but we should at least state this age cover-up fact in half a sentence. It's not like it's much of the article at all. Silverseren 01:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

"All the sources I found..." Could you please identify some of these other sources (including page numbers, please)--as long as they are of higher quality than a single sentence in an article on Michael Jackson? The problem here is not the proposed sentence, which strikes me as worthwhile; the question is if it is supported by high-quality sources, as this Featured Article requires. DocKino (talk) 02:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree, would be useful. Yes, "popular" bios are RS, in practice that barely gets you in the door. I'm going to take a scholarly bio over Kitty Kelley every time, and if the salacious information entering the public domain postdates the bio, why, show me something that applies rigor that supports it. Or leave it out.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It would probably be better to say that Parker discouraged the relationship, with various reasons being given across sources, such as here and here. And I see above that Baby, Let's Play House is discussed, but no one seems to give any real reasons why it shouldn't be used, especially if it has actual interviews with the women in question. Silverseren 02:30, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Any credibility you had, you're losing fast. The first cite you offer, How Stuff Works (???), does not have a single word that could be interpreted as supporting the claim that Parker discouraged the relationship. The second cite, an unsigned item on the Yahoo Movies website (this is what you consider a high-quality source?), says only that Parker advised Presley generally "to avoid any long-term relationships". Those leave us very, very far from supporting the inclusion of your proposed sentence. As for Nash's book, exactly what passage are you citing in defense of your proposed inclusion? DocKino (talk) 02:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The How Stuff Works articles states that "Elvis went along with the Colonel's belief that an all-consuming relationship would hurt his image and be bad for his career." In that, Parker discouraged a direct relationship with her because it would make Elvis be "taken". As for the book, I haven't read it, but according to this review of it, it likely has information regarding this subject, specifically interviews that could be helpful. Silverseren 03:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

You're seriously citing How Stuff Works for this? "The material that appears on the Discovery Sites is for informational and entertainment purposes only. Despite our efforts to provide useful and accurate information, errors may appear from time to time. Before you act on information you've found on the Discovery Sites, you should confirm any facts that are important to your decision. Discovery and its information providers make no warranty as to the reliability, accuracy, timeliness, usefulness or completeness of the information on the Discovery Sites". AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:33, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The author of that How Stuff Works article, Susan Doll, is a PhD-holding "Chicago-based film and pop culture historian. Over the past twenty years she has written numerous books, including the acclaimed recent titles Florida on Film (2007) and Elvis for Dummies (2009). She also teaches film studies at the college level, works as a writer/researcher for Facets Multimedia and writes a weekly film blog at the Turner Classic Movies website." I think she is knowledgeable about Elvis. Silverseren 04:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

"Elvis for Dummies"! I'm not sure of the appropriate response here. Whatever - this discussion seems to have moved from allegations of under-age sex (in places where it may not actually have been under-age by the laws of the time) to vague assertions about Elvis being advised to keep his relationships out of the limelight to boost his career. We seem to have no reliable source for the former, and the latter is firmly into 'So what?' territory. Nothing to see here, move along... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Clearly there are a number of editors that disagree with you, myself included. The issue with Parker should be noted in a single line and the rest of the accusations in regards to Priscilla should be investigated with looking for more sources. At the very least, it should be noted in the article that, while perhaps (or even likely) untrue, a number of biographies of Elvis and other news stories have accused him of inappropriate conduct with underage girls. Silverseren 05:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, stop. You have failed dismally to establish the supposed "issue with Parker". The "issue" changes with every submission here, and you have yet to find one single high-quality source that firmly supports this "issue"...whichever version of the "issue" you're pushing this hour. As for "inappropriate conduct with underage girls", please cite your high-quality source for that: book and page. DocKino (talk) 05:54, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I think Binksternet already covered a number of books and their pages right here. Silverseren 06:27, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Did you read what I have written above, DocKino and AndyTheGrump? In her book, The Colonel: The Extraordinary Story of Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis Presley (2003), Elvis biographer Alanna Nash cites Memphis Mafia member Lamar Fike concerning Priscilla: "I said, 'God Almighty, Elvis, she's cute as she can be, but she's fourteen years old. We'll end up in prison for life.' I watched that from the very beginning with abject fear." Nash adds that, "though the Colonel took an unusual liking to Priscilla, he was furious at such a Lolita-like setup. Elvis was now twenty-eight years old, with twelve years' difference in their ages. Not so long before, in a redneck hormone storm, the piano-pounding Jerry Lee Lewis had ruined his career by marrying his underage cousin. This situation wasn't nearly as dangerous, but if discovered, it would still be a scandal, and Presley's movie contracts had morals clauses in them - a fact, along with paternity suits, that was never far from Parker's mind." (p.205-206) These quotes from a reliable source certainly support Silverseren's view. Onefortyone (talk) 21:23, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Ha! Which of Silver seren's views?

Because nothing you've just quoted in any way supports the claim that "Colonel Tom Parker made sure that Priscilla's age did not get out to the media during that time period."

And nothing you've just quoted in any way supports the claim that Presley committed ""inappropriate conduct with underage girls."

What we are left with is the stunning revelation that some of Presley's friends and associates thought it unwise that he pursue a romantic interest in a 14-year-old. Wow. The fact is, we already mention Priscilla's age at the time they met--that is entirely sufficient in the context of this encyclopedia article. But we s-o-o-o look forward to your book... DocKino (talk) 05:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Dockino, people are going to take your posts less seriously if you keep dsimissing reliable sources as unreliable, and dismissing notable topics as not notable. Pass a Method talk 17:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow, thank you so much for this heartfelt advice. Now, it's time for you to learn how to read...

I have not dismissed any reliable source as unreliable. If you bother to read the thread above, you will realize that you simply made that up. The closest I have come--and it's not very close--is to state that one sentence in a newspaper article on Michael Jackson is not the high-quality sourcing we need to support a significant claim about Presley and Parker. This position has been strengthened by the fact that in all of the many following comments and references to higher-quality sources, no one has turned up any evidence that Parker "made sure that Priscilla's age did not get out to the media during that time period" (as your proposal would have it).

I have not dismissed any notable topic as not notable. Again, if you would only bother to read, you would see that you fabricated that assertion as well. If high-quality sources supported the claim that Parker managed to suppress publication of Priscilla's age, that would be notable--but, to date, no one has found any such support for the claim. If high-quality sources supported the claim that Presley committed inappropriate conduct with underage girls, that would be notable--but, to date, no one has found any such support for the claim. DocKino (talk) 21:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Some further sources:

• "Under the guise of complying with Mr. Beaulieu's conditions, Elvis tightened a protective net around Priscilla that effectively made her a prisoner. ... The only one not thrilled with Priscilla was Parker. While it might be less difficult to pass her off as a friend of the family here for a visit, convincing the country that Elvis was a platonic host of a live-in 15-year-old girl would be almost impossible. The only saving grace was the number of people who lived at Graceland and the fact that Elvis kept her under close wraps and didn't flaunt her in public. While she adjusted to her new home, Priscilla seemed content to spend time at Graceland, but as she acclimated to her surroundings, the natural restlessness of a teenager surfaced. Elvis sternly cautioned her against going out alone at any time, citing his concern for her safety." See Kathleen Tracy, Elvis Presley: A Biography (2006), p.116.
• " The lack of a press profile for Priscilla is a testament to the Colonel's talent for controlling the information about Elvis that was released to the media. Elvis had met Priscilla while he was in the army, and then she moved to Memphis to finish high school during the early 1960s, when she was barely 16 years old and Elvis was in his mid-20s. Though the plan had been for her to live with Elvis's father and stepmother, the truth was that she lived at Graceland in Memphis, where she attended a private high school. If the press had uncovered this information, the scandal would have destroyed the mainstream image that the Colonel, Wallis, and Elvis had so carefully constructed. " See Susan Doll, PhD, Elvis for Dummies (2009), Chapter 7.
• "Finally Parker had an idea; it wasn't great, but the Colonel was getting desperate. Perhaps Elvis should get married. This idea came indirectly from Frank Sinatra, who in July 1966 had married Mia Farrow. It was a small, informal ceremony, arranged at short notice and held at the home of Jack Entratter, owner of the Sands Hotel in Las Vegas. There were few guests, just some friends and no family. It's unclear what Parker thought marriage would achieve for Elvis as far as his career was concerned. Maybe he thought he could float a newer, even more mature Elvis, or maybe he simply thought that marriage would somehow stabilize and make him more malleable. For five years Elvis had been living in a bizarre relationship with Priscilla Beaulieu that, according to Priscilla's account in her book, Elvis and Me, consisted of pills, Polaroids, and playacting but no fully consummated sex. Priscilla's role as live-in Lolita was certainly not publicized, and it's likely that had the fact about her living under Elvis's roof been made widely known, it would have been the scandal of the decade... " See Dirk Vellenga and Mick Farren, Elvis and the Colonel (1989), p.166.

All reliable sources prove you wrong, DocKino. Onefortyone (talk) 13:54, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Prove me wrong about what, exactly? DocKino (talk) 01:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Your denial of the fact that Parker made sure that the information that Elvis lived with a fifteen-year-old girl at Graceland did not get out to the media. Onefortyone (talk) 01:51, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

You don't even know the simple facts of the case. And you are lying about me. Why are you so evil? Your behavior is so very sad and wrong. Please apologize. You are harmful to Misplaced Pages and to those of us trying to help it. You make us cry. Very bad. Very sad. DocKino (talk) 10:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I would say you make me and some other Wikipedians involved in this sad discussion cry, DocKino. You said above: " If high-quality sources supported the claim that Parker managed to suppress publication of Priscilla's age, that would be notable--but, to date, no one has found any such support for the claim." All sources cited have proved you wrong about this detail, as these sources indeed support the claim that Parker managed to suppress publication of Priscilla's role as live-in Lolita at Graceland. This is no wonder, as this information would have caused a scandal. Onefortyone (talk) 13:48, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Priscilla moved to Graceland in March 1963. She was not "barely 16" as one of your sources claim, she was a few months away from being 18. From May 1963 till her marriage in 1967 she was old enough to do as she pleased and live with whom and where she liked. What exactly did Parker have to hide? An 18 year old adult living with a slightly older man? That's hardly news, even back then, especially in the world of showbiz. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 14:19, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

According to my sources, Priscilla secretly lived at Graceland from December 1960:

• Jon Pareles, The Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock 'n' Roll (1983), p.439:

"On Christmas 1960, Priscilla Beaulieu, the teenaged daughter of an Army officer whom Presley had met in Germany, visited Graceland."

• Kathleen Tracy, Elvis Presley: A Biography (2006), p.115-116:

"During the weeks of Priscilla's holiday visit, life at Graceland took a turn for the normal. Elvis lavished time and attention on Priscilla ... He even found it in his heart to be more polite and less vicious toward Dee. ... Priscilla endured the scrutiny of everyone with admirable grace. ... She had the innocent and idealistic outlook of a well-cared-for teenager. ... She was one of the few things Vernon and Elvis saw eye to eye on. Vernon made a constant fuss over Priscilla - ...- and between the two of them, her head was spinning. For her part, Priscilla seemed just as delighted to be back in America as she was to be at Graceland with Elvis. ... the house radiated a life that had been missing for years. ... As the end of Priscilla's holiday vacation neared, the thought of her leaving drove Elvis to despair. The solution was simple – she simply had to stay. She could go to school in Memphis and live at Graceland full time. Vernon was in full support. After weeks of peaceful cohabitation, Vernon was apprehensive of the mood Elvis would revert to if Priscilla left. Like everyone else, he believed Priscilla's mere presence would solve everything and make Graceland a home, happily ever after. With Vernon on the upstairs extension, Elvis talked to Joe Beaulieu for close to an hour, while Priscilla sat listening quietly but anxiously. ... After a sometimes-impassioned conversation, it had been miraculously arranged. Priscilla would move to Graceland as a guest of Vernon and Dee's, who would take personal responsibility for chaperoning her. ... Elvis enrolled Priscilla in an all-girls school, Immaculate Conception, wanting her well educated and sheltered from the attention of teenage boys. Under the guise of complying with Mr. Beaulieu's conditions, Elvis tightened a protective net around Priscilla that effectively made her a prisoner. ... The only one not thrilled with Priscilla was Parker. While it might be less difficult to pass her off as a friend of the family here for a visit, convincing the country that Elvis was a platonic host of a live-in 15-year-old girl would be almost impossible. The only saving grace was the number of people who lived at Graceland and the fact that Elvis kept her under close wraps and didn't flaunt her in public. While she adjusted to her new home, Priscilla seemed content to spend time at Graceland, but as she acclimated to her surroundings, the natural restlessness of a teenager surfaced. Elvis sternly cautioned her against going out alone at any time, citing his concern for her safety."

• Larry Geller and Joel Spector, If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story (1989), p.58:

"Probably the most scandalous rumor circulating then was that Elvis kept a young girl back at Graceland. ... As Vernon and Elvis promised Mr. and Mrs. Beaulieu, she did complete her schooling and, as far as the public knew, lived with Vernon, Dee and Dee's three little boys, Rick, David and Billy Stanley..."

• Alanna Nash, The Colonel: The Extraordinary Story of Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis Presley (2003), p.206:

"The immediate promise was that a chaperoned Priscilla would live on nearby Hermitage Road with Vernon and his new wife, Dee. That arrangement lasted only a matter of weeks, Priscilla slipping back and forth between the houses."

There can be no doubt that Parker had to hide that Elvis lived with a fifteen-year-old girl at Graceland, ElvisFan1981. Onefortyone (talk) 14:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Once again, 141, you are cherry picking what you want to see and for others to see. Your own sources even use the words that are the most important in the argument against you. Between March 1960 and March 1963, Priscilla VISITED Elvis twice - 2 weeks in the summer of 1962, and over Christmas 1962. After Elvis left Germany in 1960, they kept in touch via phone, but they did not see each other again until the Summer of 1962, so your source claiming she spent Christmas 1960 at Graceland is very clearly wrong. Not very reliable, after all. Of course, some books get it 90% right and 10% wrong, that's why it's important to know the facts yourself and cross reference before relying 100% on one source. You apparently don't know how to do that properly and instantly rush to any source that backs up your current theories. Even when Priscilla did move to Graceland in March 1963, she did spend several weeks living with Vernon and his wife Dee in their home, so she didn't instantly move into Graceland. So, to summarize....

• Between March 1960 and March 1963, Elvis and Priscilla spent approximately 3 or 4 weeks together. She DID NOT live there, she DID NOT spend Christmas 1960 there. She did not see Elvis again until Summer 1962. Your sources are wrong.
• When she did eventually move back to America, she was only 2 months shy of her 18th birthday. She was neither "barely 16" or 15, as a couple of your previous sources have claimed.
• She spent several weeks living with Vernon Presley and his wife Dee BEFORE moving into Graceland. At this moment I don't know of exact dates, but perhaps it was until May 24, her 18th birthday? (It was only 2 months away)
• Between May 1963 and May 1967 (her wedding) she lived at Graceland as an adult, not an underage child. She did age, as we all do, and did not remain a 14 year old girl for the rest of her life. Therefore, what exactly did Parker have to hide from the press?

I'm also fairly certain that I recall an interview with a showbiz reporter at the time who said that the whole media knew of Priscilla living at Graceland, but as she was old enough to do so and there was no scandal to report, they didn't bother to report it. The press knew and the fans knew. It wasn't important. You need to remember, 141, that Priscilla grew up. She wasn't 14 when she lived with Elvis, and she hasn't been for a long time. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 15:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

The sources I have cited say otherwise. It could well be that Parker officially told the press that Priscilla was only a special guest at Graceland, and many fans may believe these claims today, but she was actually living there from December 1960. That's why so many sources are talking about Priscilla's role as live-in Lolita. Therefore, Misplaced Pages should cite what these sources say. Onefortyone (talk) 15:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

The sources you have cited are wrong, regardless of how much you want to believe them, 141. I have a book that claims there's a man living in the moon, but I don't think it would pass as a reliable source on the article about the moon. "It could well be..." is not good enough for Misplaced Pages. Come on 141, by now you should know that. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 15:34, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I support ElvisFan's very strong and detailed analysis. And for all of his tireless efforts, 141 has still not been able to find a single high-quality source that supports the claim in question that "Colonel Tom Parker made sure that Priscilla's age did not get out to the media during that time period." DocKino (talk) 21:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support adding the sentence, cited to one or two of the most reliable sources shown here. Binksternet (talk) 14:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

• Well, not quite. The proposed sentence is this: "Colonel Tom Parker made sure that Priscilla's age did not get out to the media during that time period." We now have some good sourcing that Elvis and Priscilla's mutual romantic interest did not become public for some time, but no firm attribution of that to Parker. I believe we can support an addition here, but rephrased and working off the existing sentence. Something like this: "They would eventually marry after a seven-and-a-half-year courtship, which did not become public knowledge for some time." That's what we can support based on high-quality sources at this point--and we should be able to improve on it. The vagueness of "for some time" is unsatisfactory. Let's keep hitting the books and see if we can determine exactly when their romance became public. DocKino (talk) 01:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Why not just write what the reliable sources say:

• If the press had uncovered Priscilla's role as "live-in Lolita" at Graceland, the scandal would have destroyed the singer's mainstream image that the Colonel, Wallis, and Elvis himself had constructed. See Dirk Vellenga and Mick Farren, Elvis and the Colonel (1989), p.166. Susan Doll, PhD, Elvis for Dummies (2009), Chapter 7.

This is a clear statement. Onefortyone (talk) 01:51, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

No. That is very obviously not a clear statement at all. You sound very much like a troll. In the past, experienced editors have identified you as a troll. Based on your behavior here, you seem like a troll. Are you a troll? DocKino (talk) 10:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

If other Wikipedians cite reliable sources that prove you wrong, you are accusing them of being a troll. Very interesting behavior, DocKino, and certainly not in line with Misplaced Pages policies. Onefortyone (talk) 14:25, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

"Them"? No, 141. There's no "them." You are the only participant in this discussion who has been identified by multiple experienced editors as a troll. DocKino (talk) 21:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Elvis on Beale Street

Hey, yeah, it's just like old times here, only with some new names. Meanwhile, I'd like to suggest that BB King's Elvis on Beale Street be moved. "Clearly, it was Dewey who introduced Presley to Beale Street's juke joints and night spots, and he did so only after making hi instantly famous on Jluy 10, 1954... Dewey and Elvis: the life and times of a rock 'n' roll deejay. By Louis Cantor page 148. currently available (along with evidence to support this) through Google Books.) Oh, and Bill Haley was doing rockabilly in 1951, (Listen to Rocket 88 for example. three years before Elvis was one of the "originators". Steve Pastor (talk) 23:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC) Yeah Steve,this sort of information you've put forward,I myself find so very interesting,rather than all that other irrelevant dribble. I also read someone that they say that the song "Rocket 88" by Jackie Brenston and the piano playing was Ike Turner,back in the 40's was considered by many to be the first R&B song.--Jaye9 (talk) 00:33, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The rockabilly thing jumped out at me too when I read the article - the claim that he was one of the originators is somewhat poorly sourced. "Popularizes" - of course! "Originators" - somewhat dubious.VolunteerMarek 22:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

"Somewhat poorly sourced"? Are you serious? It's sourced to Paul Friedlander's Rock and Roll: A Social History, one of the more highly regarded reference works in the field, published by the well-respected Westview Press. Just to check myself, I grabbed my old copy of the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll off the shelf and looked up "rockabilly". Here's how the entry begins: "Rockabilly was Elvis Presley's music, the hybrid of blues and country that become rock & roll." In Rock Music Styles: A History (from McGraw-Hill, again a very well respected publishing house), Katherine Charlton flatly describes Presley as "rockabilly's originator." You may "feel" that he's not one of the originators of the genre, but high-quality sources belie that. DocKino (talk) 23:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

By March 1954 Bill Haley and Saddlemen/ Comets had 14 releases that Terry Gordon of the Rockin’ Country Style web site rate as “pertinent” in a discussion of what is most commonly known as “Rockabilly”. Note that Sun hadn't recorded anything that would be released by Elvis. The problem is that many if not most authors either don't know about, or chose to ignore everything that came before Elvis. It would be more correct to state that "to the public at large", or "on the national stage", Elvis was appeaered to be an originator of the style. Steve Pastor (talk) 02:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

(1) While Gordon's efforts are impressive, in the end you're citing what a personal website calls "pertinent" to a discussion of rockabilly. That's rather meager countersourcing.

(2) We do not claim that Presley invented rockabilly. We identify him as "one of originators." That modest claim is very well founded in high-quality sources. DocKino (talk) 05:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

"But would you agree with me that rock 'n' roll started with Sam Phillips' Sun label? He was recording-" "No, not really, no," Gene interrupted. "Can't say that Sorry. I know Sam real well and Sam picked up on something that was already happening." Gene Vincent being interviewed in "Race with the Devil" pgae 219. Steve Pastor (talk)

I agree with what I believe is your general philosophical point, which is that it's hard to identify anyone person or event as the "origin" of any musical genre. But again, we don't claim that Presley invented rockabilly and/or rock 'n' roll. We describe him as an originator. That's a different, much more modest, and very well support description. Right? DocKino (talk) 01:49, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I only mentioned this in passing, but when another editor picked up on it, I decided to begin sharing what I've learned over the past year or two (or three?), since I decided my time on this article was no longer justified and decided to pursue other interests that turned out to lead back here. Anyhow, it's my opinion that a more nuanced statement would better represent the facts, rather than simply going with what most authors have written. If no other editors agree, and I have completed the presentation of those facts, or it turns out that no one is interested, I will rest my case.

Vincent goes on to say, "But a lot of people were doing it before that, especially Carl Perkins." Steve Pastor (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Although we did not agree in certain points in the past, Steve, in this case I would like to support your view. Colin Escott and Martin Hawkins write:

• "It is now established that rock music did not originate with the Beatles or even with Elvis Presley a decade earlier and much rock literature has rightly emphasized the importance of the many forms of ethnic music that preceded the rock revolution. 'Rockabilly' was there at the beginning. It was basically hyperactive country music which borrowed in mood and emphasis from commercial rhythm and blues. Rockabilly has become identified with Sun Records..."

and therefore Escott and Hawkins's book "uses a study of Sun — its distinctive sound, its artists, and its market — as a starting point for a wider study of rockabilly music." See Colin Escott and Martin Hawkins, Sun Records: The Brief History of the Legendary Recording Label (1980), p.i. The authors add on p.64:

• "What made rockabilly fascinating was its compulsive rhythm with the accent on the second and fourth beats, usually achieved without the use of a heavy drummer. Other instruments used in the early days were the fiddle and, later, the saxophone when artists had designs on a hit record."

Did Elvis's band members use fiddles? Earlier rockabilly artists obviously did. This means that Elvis was not the originator of rockabilly. Here is another source that discusses the "Rockabilly ideal", i.e. "rebellion against societal controls, excess, hedonism, and a sense of a community among outsiders":

• "These points indicate that Rockabilly was not an isolated phenomenon; its salient features relate it to other musical and cultural movements taking place all over the United States in the 1940's and 1950s. Most of the studies of Rockabilly have emphasized its regional origins. This specific musical fusion of black rhythm and blues and white country music and gospel took place in and around Memphis, Tennessee in 1954; it spread throughout the mid-South region (Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Texas) between 1954 and 1956; and finally became a national and international form of popular music from 1956 to 1958, when it was absorbed by a developing mainstream rock 'n' roll. Early Rockabilly was characterized by a set instrumentation of acoustic rhythm guitar, electric lead guitar, and stand-up string bass, with drums and piano sometimes added later; the use of echo on lead vocal; and heavy rhythms with accents on the second and fourth beats (...). Colin Escott and Martin Hawkins call Rockabilly a "basically hyperactive country music which borrowed in mood and emphasis from commercial rhythm and blues" (...). The musical influences on Rockabilly were only partially regional, and even the immediate regional precursors of Rockabilly — hillbilly boogie, honky-tonk, western swing, and bluegrass — had already been affected by national popular musical forms such as jazz, blues, vaudeville, and rhythm and blues."

See The Southern Quarterly, vol. 22, 1983, p.79. Calling Elvis one of the originators of rockabilly (as in the Misplaced Pages article) seems wrong to me, in view of the sources cited above. Other musicians were the originators. Onefortyone (talk) 23:34, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Great. Now in addition to one strong source that identifies Presley as "rockabilly's originator" and a second that calls rockabilly "essentially an Elvis Presley construction", we now have confirmation from a third that says of rockabilly, "This specific musical fusion of black rhythm and blues and white country music and gospel took place in and around Memphis, Tennessee in 1954"--exactly where and when Presley's career began. Just as the "rockabilly" entry in the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll puts it: "Rockabilly was Elvis Presley's music." The matter is settled: the historical consensus is very, very clear--Presley was one of rockabilly's originators. Let's move on. DocKino (talk) 23:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, DocKino, it is a historical fact that the origin of Rockabilly was only partially regional, as the same source later emphasizes (contrary to the studies of Rockabilly that have made the claim of its regional origins), and that Elvis was not its originator. Rockabilly was already there before Elvis appeared on the scene. He only made Rockabilly very popular, that's true. Onefortyone (talk) 23:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, exactly! We don't say that rockabilly had an originator. And, of course, the influences on it were by no means merely regional. But all the sources agree that it arose in and around Memphis in 1954, and that Presley was one of the originators. We nailed this one! DocKino (talk) 00:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

You are wrong as Rockabilly was already there shortly before Elvis appeared on the scene. According to Escott and Hawkins's book, Sun Records — its distinctive sound, its artists, and its market — was a big starting point for rockabilly, and Sun started operations on March 27, 1952. Onefortyone (talk) 00:15, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

What?! You've lost the thread, my friend. Sun Records didn't invent rockabilly by opening its doors. You must have been joking there, right? So: We have one high-quality source that flatly describes Presley as "rockabilly's originator". We have a second high-quality source that calls rockabilly "essentially an Elvis Presley construction". Where's the high-quality source that claims "rockabilly was already there shortly before Elvis appeared on the scene"? I haven't found that source. Steve Pastor hasn't found that source. And you most certainly haven't. So...we're done here. DocKino (talk) 00:19, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I have already cited my sources above. Onefortyone (talk) 00:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we've all cited many sources. And no high-quality source asserts that rockabilly was a fully formed genre before Elvis started his professional career. Thanks for all your hard work. DocKino (talk) 00:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is a reliable source explicitly stating that Elvis was not the originator of Rockabilly. It cites Carl Perkins who

• has been called one of the originators of rockabilly. But Carl steadfastly refuses to take primary credit for this accomplishment. " Phillips, Elvis, and I didn't create rockabilly; it was just the white man's response to the black man's spiritualness. It was born in the South. People working those cotton fields as I did as a youngster would hear black people singing . . . There's a lot of cats that was doin' our things, and maybe better, that were never heard of — they're the ones that created rockabilly, the ones who never even got on record. We're just the lucky ones."

See Wayne Jancik, The Billboard Book of One-Hit Wonders (1998), p.16. This means that neither Elvis nor Perkins were the originators of Rockabilly. Onefortyone (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 January 2012

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This article lists "Hartbreak Hotel" as Elvis first single recorded in 1956. I believe that his first single was recorded in 1954 and was "Thats All Right" on A side and "Blue Moon of Kentucky" on the B side

70.24.5.7 (talk) 16:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

First RCA single. That's All Right was produced by Sun Records. Regards.♫GoP♫_{TN 02:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC)}

Correction

To Whom It May Concern,

There is a correction to Elvis Presley's article page: Early Years > Childhood in Tupelo > Paragraph 2 > Line 5: "...was found guilty of altering a CHECK..." should be CHEQUE. I have not made a correction before. I hope this is how it is done. Thank you.

Sindy 41.55.153.224 (talk) 19:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

No. The article is written in American English. The spelling of "check" is correct. DocKino (talk) 19:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

'from'

To try to nip a rather silly edit war in the bud, I've asked for outside help:

Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Language#Are_You_Grammatically_Correct_Tonight.3F

AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

May I suggest that interested editors simply...purchase...a...decent...dictionary. Merriam-Webster's tells us "graduate" may be used transitively or intransitively. American Heritage tells us "graduate" may be used transitively or intransitively.

I have now been accused multiple times on my Talk page of a grave breach of Misplaced Pages etiquette because I dared to identify this edit, with its edit summary "'graduate' isn't transitive" as "Ridiculous." Well, I do believe it's ridiculous for an inexperienced editor--or any editor--to edit a Featured Article while erroneously tossing around fancy words like "transitive"--a failure of English comprehension that could be entirely avoided by the simple...gesture...of...referring...to...a...decent...dictionary. DocKino (talk) 06:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

The problem with this is that the USA appears to be the only English-speaking country where anybody currently considers it correct to use the verb "graduate" transitively with the person or persons graduating as its subject and the institution from which they're graduating as its direct object. That use is not recorded at all in the current version of the Oxford English Dictionary, which the English regard as the supreme lexicographical authority on the language they speak. Nor is it recorded in my third (1997) edition of the Macquarie Dictionary of Australian English. I haven't bothered to go to a library to try and check the fifth edition, but as far as I can tell, the usage in question is still sufficiently different from normal here that I think any well-educated Australian would instantly recognise it as an Americanism.

The lesson from all this is that before shooting one's mouth off about whether someone else's ideas of correct Grammar or word usage is wrong—or "ridiculous"—one would do well to consider the possibility that he or she may be a native of a different country from one's own, with different ideas about the grammatical propriety or impropriety of any particular expression. To some extent this would apply also to Windofkeltia's original edit, although his edit summary could in no way be reasonably described as "shooting his mouth off".

David Wilson (talk · cont) 10:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

PS: I should perhaps add that I was not here advocating the adoption of Windofkeltia's change. Since the altered text is apparently good US English, and the change has been objected to on those grounds, it shouldn't be changed unless a discussion on this talk page can reach a consensus to change it. A case for the change can be made on the grounds that it's grammatically correct in all dialects of English, including US English, whereas the current version is considered incorrect in most (if not all) dialects of English except US English. Nevertheless, it's still up to those who want to make the change to convince a consensus of editors that the change is desirable. Personally, I don't think it's worth the bother.

David Wilson (talk · cont) 13:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

"The problem"? There's really no problem at all, so long as editors recognize that this is an article on an American topic, written in good American English. When I edit articles on, say, British topics written in British English, you can be damn sure I refer to a British dictionary and/or stylebook, as relevant, before daring to make any grammatical "corrections." Windofkeltia's "different ideas" about grammatical propriety were completely misapplied here--that is the entirety of the "problem." But thanks for taking your turn at shooting your mouth off about the third edition of the Macquarie Dictionary. Most edifying. DocKino (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

• I've temporarily protected the page due to edit warring over this. Work it out on the talk page. Dreadstar ☥ 22:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

By the time he graduated high school in..... doesn't trip-up my English and seems fine. Mlpearc (powwow) 23:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

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