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Rjanag arbitration-related

Encouragement

Please persevere through all the drama surrounding The Shells article and Rjanag. I believe such drama drives many good editors away, and I don't want it to happen to you. You do good work and I appreciate it. - Draeco (talk) 00:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Ditto. Contains Mild Peril (talk) 13:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

		The Resilient Barnstar
		For your your valiant efforts to defend The Shells (folk band) article with your reasoned arguments and perseverance, and for taking conflicts in your stride and continuing undeterred with your good work as a Misplaced Pages editor. Illegitimi non carborundum. Contains Mild Peril (talk) 01:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:ANI--Rjanag; Rjanag Arbitration

With heavy heart, I have reported Rjanag at the ANI here based on what I believe was grossly uncivil behavior during the Shells affair. It is neither a personal attack against him nor a favor to you, but his behavior compelled me to act. As an involved party I think you should know. - Draeco (talk) 06:19, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for your note. My heart too has grown heavier the more the relationship between the nom and the closing admin reveals itself.

As you know, now that that ANI has closed, I've opened up this Rjanag arbitration. Quick question as to your comment there. You indicated that you don't recommend de-sysopping as he didn't abuse admin privileges. My reading of WP:ADMIN, as I quoted it there, was that de-sysopping is one possible appropriate treatment of an admin who displays consistently or egregiously poor judgment, or who seriously, or repeatedly, acts in a problematic manner or has lost the trust or confidence of the community, including repeated/consistent poor judgment, breach of basic policies (attacks, biting/civility, edit warring), "bad faith" adminship (gross breach of trust), and conduct elsewhere incompatible with adminship. Did I miss something (in which case I should amend my request), or do you read it differently? Or perhaps just have a more lenient approach than WP:ADMIN? Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:15, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Apologies

This may be too little too late, but I have left you a message with my apologies at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Statement by Rjanag. Thank you, rʨanaɢ /_contribs 18:13, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Full reply @ Rjanag Arbitration

• I'm saddened that you did not do so many weeks earlier. But only after being completely unrepentant through dozens of requests/incidents involving me and others, an AN/I, an arb request being filed, evidence pouring forth regarding your extraordinarily close relationship with the closing admin, and arb voters indicating that they do not agree with your pooh-poohing of the matter. And even yesterday you were saying you do not need to apologize. It certainly makes it look as though rather than being heartfelt, this has more to do with your desire to avoid the scrutiny of an arbitration.

Finally, on further inspection, your "apology" is barely an apology at all -- as you fail to admit and to apologize for your persistent incivility, untruthful statements, bullying, wikihounding, gaming the system, edit warring, and knowing COI. Further inspection also reveals that your behavior spreads over a number of matters, and impacts a number of editors. They deserve better. My full comments can be found at Rjanag Arbitration. --Epeefleche (talk) 07:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

A word in your ear

I participated in the first Shells AfD in question. AfD is a frequent stomping ground of mine, and I find it extremely common to see articles like The Shells to be put up for AfD, and just as common to see them deleted as a result of them not satisfying the basic notability and sourcing requirements of WP. Sometimes creators/editors who fail to accept that. There is occasionally dogged opposition to a deletion, which you demonstrated to see the article wasn't deleted, leading to bitter fights which may get personal. The Shells AfD was certainly one of those. I believe the tone set by Rjanag in the AfD was not appropriate, effectively winding up people who would have supported the deletion on the merits of the case alone that prevailed eventually. While I applaud you for your tenacious fight to keep the article, I believe that the lesson to be learned would be to strive for improved sourcing and better writing of an article to avoid the common pitfalls which lead to deletion. I have been upset when articles I have contributed significantly were put to AfD, because it's a natural tendency to want to look after one's baby. I know the above from Rjanag is not the unreserved apology you feel you deserve. But hard as it may be, I hope you will not take the deletion too personally. Perhaps one day, The Shells will be a notable band... I hope you will stay around for when that happens. Ohconfucius 04:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. We can have different views as to the AfD merits. We're not alone--just look at the votes at the two AfDs. That's fair. And needn't be uncivil. I've created nearly 200 articles in my years here, and made more than a few thousand edits, so I have a bit of a sense for notability.

I credit you, however, for agreeing with those of us who believe that the tone set by Rjanag in the AfDs was not appropriate. Not many have crossed the aisle, stood up, and made themselves heard on that point.

Also, his misconduct included misstatements. That does not lead IMHO to the best decision-making by those who are trying to make a decision based on facts, not misstatements.

Many editors noticed his misconduct. At least 20 discussed it with him in the past few months, with communications ranging from complaints to warnings to AN/Is. Those 20 editors from what I can tell are essentially unrelated--joined only by their common concern over his misconduct.

As to the "ownership" point, I don't get the sense that Draeco brought the Shells AN/I, or that the other editors spoke up about the conduct that led to the Shells and the other AN/Is, because of "ownership" issues. Quite the opposite. Rather, they think as I do that misconduct is bad, they care about this project, and they believe that misconduct of this sort adversely impacts the project.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:18, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

• I sympathise. With all your experience, he still managed to wind you up. In my previous dealings with him, he's been pretty no-nonsense, occasionally blunt; he's never been abusive, but one can sense what lurks below the surface. I don't know what's got into him. I'll make a mental note but I'd rather not have to spend time looking into it for now. Happy editing! Ohconfucius 02:51, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• It's not every day I see an admin write one editor: "You can go f_ck yourself" , use the same choice words to another editor, and also write "if you bring them to ANI … you will get bitch-slapped so fast it'll make your head spin … You f_cking moron”. --Epeefleche (talk) 03:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

No you don't. Whoever let the lord of the jungle out? ;-) Ohconfucius 18:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Aafia Siddiqui

Some terrific work there on Aafia Siddiqui Bachcell (talk) 19:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Great work on Aafia, It's more factual now!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.219.88.140 (talk) 19:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Cookie

Fiftytwo thirty has given you a cookie! Cookies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a cookie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy munching!
Spread the goodness of cookies by adding {{subst:Cookie}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message, or eat this cookie on the giver's talk page with {{subst:munch}}!

This cookie is for coming back so nicely to my somewhat harsh message. Thank you. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 00:36, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Eric Ely

Thank you for your Wikignome-like edits. What do you think, substantively? Bearian (talk) 21:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm puzzling over why the article is up for AfD, frankly. Does the nom dislike you? I'm just poking around the article for the moment and looking at the sources, and curious what others have to say.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:48, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

As you can tell from my comments at the AfD, I found Greg L’s analysis somewhat short of what I think you are entitled to when someone reviews your article at an AfD, and suggests deletion of your article.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

2010 Times Square car bomb attempt

You've been doing incredible work on this article and I wanted to make it clear how much I appreciate your work on it. You've been prolific in editing the article, and adding in relevant information, and while I've followed this story myself, in all of your edits I've not disagreed with you once (maybe I missed something... or maybe I thought the police commissioner should be facing the other direction....). Thank you, and please keep up the good work. I'll try to help as much as I can. Shadowjams (talk) 10:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar suggestions for Jimbo

I've never given out a barnstar. But I imagine Jimbo deserves one for this.

Can anyone suggest which template I might consider using? Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:34, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Lacrosse

Hi, I noticed your contributions and thought you might be interested in joining WikiProject Lacrosse. If you are interested in contributing more to Lacrosse related articles you may want to join WikiProject Lacrosse (signup here). --Yarnalgo _talk to me 17:46, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Threeafterthree; Block

Just indeffed Tom for disruptive editing per your report. Thanks, FASTILY 01:22, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks. One down; it's a start.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Got a moment?

Hi. I noticed that you just answered a concern for a user over on the wikiquette alert page. Could I impose on you to take a look at my entry and advise accordingly? Thanks. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 05:32, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

• Got your thoughtful response and I thought I should thank you here as well. I'll do what you suggest right away. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 05:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind comments!!!

-- φ OnePt618 φ has given you a pie! Pies promote the kind of hearty eating that puts a smile on your face and a sustaining meal in your stomach. Hopefully this pie has made your day better. Spread the goodness by giving someone else a pie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy eating! Spread the goodness of pie by adding {{subst:Wikipie}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Seriously, you made my day. Thanks and I hope we can cross paths on here again soon!-- φ OnePt618 φ 06:01, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

List of Jews in sports

Consider adding Sam Stoller to the list. He was an NCAA sprint champion and a remarkable man. Cbl62 (talk) 23:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Review request

It is a small world. Your DYK link for Cordoba House led me to the December, 2009, Times article--your source for the phrase, "its location was a selling point for the Muslims who bought the land." Although I don't recognize the building at all from the pictures, I shopped there when it was being operated by Sy Syms. I still have a couple of his coat hangers from that single trip in the early 1980s.

Curiously, Syms died last year, just about the time that Abdul Rauf was announcing his plans for Cordoba House--I don't think that was the cause.--Komowkwa (talk) 02:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on the school webcam lawsuit article

Thanks for your work on Blake J. Robbins v. Lower Merion School District‎. Blue Rasberry 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Byron Krieger; birthplace

I really do not understand why you keep putting his place of birth in the lifespan brackets. It does not belong there. Can you please explain your edits, because your edit summary is not sufficient. So what if he competed for the United States? The actual place of his birth (Detroit, Michigan) is not particularly notable - in fact, considering that he did compete for the US, that makes it not particularly notable. If he competed for another country, then maybe it would be worth mentioning, or if he was born somewhere else... but an American competitor being born in the United States is nothing notable. Canadian Paul 14:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I got your "will reply soon" email almost a month and a half ago... I think that's more than a reasonable amount of time to wait for a response... Canadian Paul 05:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Morgan Stanley Smith Barney

nice work Decora (talk) 17:54, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

If I can help...; sourcing

...with the sourcing of Targeted killing as per that conversation at WP:RS/N, let me know. Bigger digger (talk) 02:51, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

What a kind, generous, offer! Of course -- feel free (if you think it would be helpful). Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:27, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Didn't quite make it today, got a bit side tracked. But you really need to stop fanning the flames that PBS feeds on. There's no need to return repeatedly to the RFC, which will close in its own good time. The conversation at the reliable sources noticeboard could've been wrapped up quite quickly if you'd have said "ok, here are some page numbers". Or ignored it. You would have had to add the page numbers eventually (I figure if you didn't he would add dated fact tags and use that as justification to delete the info after a week), so why not just play his game? He's going to make you play it anyway so you should play in the easiest manner you can. The rules are skewed massively in your favour, and he must enjoy all the pointless forum shopping and pointless debating. Say your piece, do what's necessary, and let time take its course, as we all know there's no deadline! Sorry if this is a bit teaching you how to suck lemons, but I think for your own wiki-sanity it might need saying! And sorry not to reply to your email, but I don't have a suitably anonymous email address set up and don't think it necessary. Best, Bigger digger (talk) 02:45, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Off2Riorob

Hi -- I have noticed your comments about this editor in a few places, including Scottmac's talk page. You might have noticed mine as well: , on the Ed Miliband talk page, the Geim page, and here. RFC/U requires that two editors have raised concerns with the user directly, on his talk page. I have already done that (the first link above, which he simply deleted). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes -- As Scott had been intensely involved with both the AN and the Geim page, I thought it would be quite appropriate to afford him the ability to take appropriate admin action. Unless he was too involved already as an editor, as may be the case (though he seemed to be involved in pleading Off2's case (as an editor), which likely would have allowed him to take some action). Scott has not responded. At the very least, especially given Scott's silence, I thought I should give Off2 the opportunity to consider my concerns with his behavior (whether or not I pursue an RFC/U ... which, as it turns out, is something that Scott has mentioned as a possibility as well). So I've just left word for Off2 as well.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:15, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I have not taken any admin action as regards Rob. And I have not "pled his case" either. I archived a thread because I believed that the voluntary agreement covered the most pertinent points. Others were free to disagree with that, or indeed revert my closure. Closing or opening a thread is not an admin action, and if I'd been reverted I would not have closed it again - that would be for others to decide either way. As for Robb's actions, I've not examined them at all. However, it might be best to ask some neutral editor to do that. Generally raising behaviour questions once you are in a content dispute (and particularly one as vexed as categorising BLPs by identity) is more difficult. You will not be seen as objective. If you've concerns about my admin actions, feel free to raise them with me, at the moment I'm not sure I've taken any.--Scott Mac 15:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Scott Mac -- perhaps I misunderstand RFC/U, but I would have thought that the point is precisely to request comments from neutral observers. True, I would not be perceived as objective about O2RR at this juncture -- so the the point would be to request comment from others who would be perceived as objective. Is this not how it works? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. I was only suggesting that getting someone uninvolved to mediate might be useful.--Scott Mac 18:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Yemen-Chicago Plot

Thanks for your work on this article! It's developed a lot since I created it a couple of days ago. There's an extra layer of depth now that I wasn't able to provide with just the BBC articles I was using. – Novem Lingvae (talk) 06:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The article is looking great! I've nominated it to appear on WP:ITN. The discussion is at . – Novem Lingvae (talk) 22:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

ITN: 2010 cargo plane bomb plot

Yay!!! – Novem Lingvae (talk) 21:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah dude, I'm watching the page views too! Really I just started the article and you took over after the first day. Every time I refresh the page history there's like 20 new edits by you. Good job man! Talk about just diligently reading every newspaper as they put out an article on the issue and incorporating the new facts. I look forward to collaborating on IR articles in the future. :D – Novem Lingvae (talk) 06:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Geim article

Hi,

I posted a proposal for a cleaner version of the bio. I'm not sure if you check the talk page (plus it was moved up by a few anon. comments) so I though I'd notify you here. Basically, it compresses redundant info. and puts sources in refs. Like, instead of saying something like "The Forward and RussianInfoCentre and Physics World reported that..." it would say ""Several sources (link to footnotes) reported that..." That way it just seems a lot more professional, and the flow improves significantly.

Please check it out, and make any suggestions if you want. Regards, --Therexbanner (talk) 17:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

In concept, it is certainly fine. But it may be that some who are not as quick as you are may need additional assistance.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I've addressed it in the text, with your notion and those expressed on the tp by others as the guide. Different working, but same concept and I hope it addresses precisely the point you range.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Geim; Jewish

Why don't you gey over yourself and leave living subjects alone, three Christian Grandparents makes him a whole lot not jewish, all the world can see he is a single quarter jew, the size of which is a minor genetic issue. Also if you are unable to discuss like adult and insst on adding silly templates to my talkpage then stay off my talkpage. Off2riorob (talk) 14:36, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Your understanding of the matter seems, with all due respect, to be perhaps on par with your spelling in your above missive. In any event, please respect core wikipedia policies such as verifiability, consensus, and the Project's general distaste for disruptive editing. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:44, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

If you are going to cite verifiability, best to read the sources. The RIC did not say he was Jewish, but "born to a Jewish family". I've corrected the text to reflect the sources accurately.--Scott Mac 14:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

This brings to mind a conversation we once had regarding the possibility that you might be tag-teaming with an editor. I'm trying to recall his name. Also with regard to the propriety of you acting both as a sysop on an article and as an editor on the very same article, which raises perhaps questions under wp:admin.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:55, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

What the fuck? What is this? Are not we all supposed to working for neutral verifiable content accurate to the sources? I saw a dispute between the two of you, and rather than jump in with blocks and templates I thought the best way to settle was to examine the sources. What's your problem with that?--Scott Mac 14:59, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

On my talk page, I would appreciate it if you would make an effort to find some other language to express yourself. Children view this page at times. It's a robust language, and in it you may well find similarly satisfactory expressions that they would find perhaps slightly less offensive. As to the substance of what I am saying, I assume your understanding of my comment is such that I need not provide diffs, and discussions of Arb Committee applications of wp:admin, and reference prior AN closes, and the like. This isn't an AN/I or an arbitration -- we're simply seeking to communicate with each other. So I imagine further explication is not necessary here.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:47, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I changed the material to reflect the given sources more accurately. The previous version seriously misrepresented the sources. Would you rather I had left the inaccurate version?--Scott Mac 16:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Ignoring your rather energetic exaggeration, I'll limit myself to suggesting that the beginning of your answers lie in WP:ADMIN and the arb cases decided applying the relevant principle.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I've no idea what you are on about. If you think I've misread the sources let me know. Otherwise, I think I'll just let it go.--Scott Mac 18:18, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Plans; prior AN/I

Thanks for the heads up, I don't think they will succeed but it's good to know they're planning it. Did you let Jayjg know as well?Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 08:23, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• No -- only you. Jayjg and I have made complaints about each other at AN/I. To put it delicately, he is not really an editor I choose to converse with.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:27, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Ike Davis

I watch all the current Mets players and I must say that the Ike Davis article is the best of the lot, by far. Have you considered taking it perhaps to GA?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

A quick review of the article astonishes me. Well done! I'd be very surprised if it isn't accepted as a GA. I also suggest going for it. Jusdafax 10:06, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Why, thanks much. OK -- in the New Year I promise to give in to peer pressure and take it to GA. Happy holidays to all.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:07, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Done. Tx for spurring me on.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

575th Signal Company

If you would like a copy of this article put in your userspace so you can include details within 75th Infantry Division (United States) or anywhere else, please do say so, and I'll do it. Regards Buckshot06 (talk) 21:15, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind offer. Certainly -- that would be great. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:38, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Online Ambassadors

I saw the quality of your contributions at DYK and clicked on over to your user page and was pretty impressed. Would you be interested in helping with the WP:Online_Ambassadors program? It's really a great opportunity to help university students become Misplaced Pages contributers. I hope you apply to become an ambassador, Sadads (talk) 00:23, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

List of Iranians

Hi Epeefleche, thanks for watching this article! Cheers.Farhikht (talk) 12:57, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Maybe a candidate for your list?

Sandy Cohen (ice hockey)? Cheers.--Mbz1 (talk) 02:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the thought. Good hockey player, but not IMHO quite notable enough (compared to the others on the list) .... Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:57, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Moe Berg

Are you sure that Rockefeller recruited Berg for the OSS? None of the references you cited there say that. Our Moe Berg article says "To do his part for the war effort, Berg accepted a position with Nelson Rockefeller's Office of Inter-American Affairs on January 5, 1942." Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Yes -- I have spent the last half hour of my life trying to unwind the edit conflict caused by us both working to improve the article at the same time. So it is going in in pieces. What I have reflects a ref that supports that statement -- I'm not in the habit of making material up, for purposes of inputting it in wp, or acting on what my father told me he knew to be the case. When I work through the edit conflict, it should be clear in the article.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:46, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

List of African writers by country

Hello! I notice you've made a series of edits removing redlinks from this page. Do you mind if I revert your edits, temporarily leaving the unreferences redlinks you've removed, in order to work to provide references for those that I can? Many have entries in a single source, Killam & Rowe's Companion to African Literatures. Best, Dsp13 (talk) 02:42, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

If that's something that you can do right away, as I'm guessing it is if it largely comes from one source, just go for it. If it will take more than a day or two, I would suggest that you copy it to a user page or the talk page, and work on it at your leisure. The guideline is somewhat strict on this, but either way you should be able to address it without too much upset I would think. Best. --Epeefleche (talk) 03:00, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

ta. I'll userfy as you suggest - but if you could hold off doing more to that page for the moment for a couple of days, it'd be great.Dsp13 (talk) 10:53, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

No worries. Nice working with you. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah...

Sometimes it is hard to see the wood for the trees. Having now seen Fæ's perspective on that conversation... I can't do anything but see it in a new light. I think I do now see where you are coming from, while there was no intention to push anyone away I basically ended up going into a rant about WP:V :S And I finally see what you mean about removing others work; and while that specific example was unintentional (and probably a reasonable removal) I did just offhanded it as "not part of this discussion" :S Damn. I appreciate you getting me to finally consider this appropriately. (More delicately; I don't want this to come off as a way to appease you, reading Fæ's words has made it click and I will reflect on this.. "enthusiasm"). As I mentioned elsewhere in the RFA my other most active online forum is a community where we spar over ideas/thoughts/proposals and I suppose vestiges of that still exists, even if I miss them. Will work on this. --Errant 11:21, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

I appreciate your additions to Orio Palmer. Cullen328 (talk) 14:54, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Date styles

Heya Epeefleche,

I saw you modified some dates over on the List of home run records. I could care less, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing anything bad. I thought that styling a date as (example) 27 May was equally acceptable as styling it May 27. Have I been wrong in this assumption?

Hi. No worries. You might want to take a glance at the guideline entitled WP:STRONGNAT, which indicates in pertinent part: "Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation. For the US this is month before day". I would think that records in major league baseball have a strong tie to the US. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:54, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Poor form on my part not signing ... sorry about that. Thanks for the explanation ... I will watch that in the future.

Thanks for the kind words

There should be more editors with your kind of good nature. You help make WP a better place to volunteer. Happy editing! Chris the speller (talk) 20:59, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Fully agree from my part. Btw, I also like to do flèches but more often in foil than in epée ;). Best regards and thanks again for your comments. 95.23.42.162 (talk) 20:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Script tools

I use wikEd on the Firefox browser. Firefox underlines misspellings in red, and wikEd allows the use of JavaScript regular expression syntax to find and correct errors. I have some examples on my /regular subpage. I have many more regular expression scripts, in case you were looking for something special; just ask. Happy editing! Chris the speller (talk) 15:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

RFA/boing

right church, wrong pew - I love that; well said.

"Is this the right room for an argument?" hehe.

Gods, I really do hate RfA, sometimes. Always, actually. Chzz  ►  17:22, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing. Classic. All-too-familiar. Really ... classic.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:19, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Heh. There's also a quote from Dr. Strangelove, "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" — which I think should be the motto of AN. Gotta laugh about these things, otherwise we'd go completely insane.  Chzz  ►  16:13, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Here is an idea--an "AGFN". Modeled on the RSN. Editors there discuss whether another editor has -- by his/her statements/actions -- rebutted the presumption of AgF. Perhaps that would help lower the intensity of the "War Room" discussions. As those editors on the "I've been shown to be not deserving of the assumption" list would have a lesser voice.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:15, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Careful now; allegedly, 2000 years ago, a guy was nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change.  Chzz  ►  03:37, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Golden Globes article

• You're welcome. Few things piss me off worse than for me or someone else to do substantial work on an article, and then getting the reaction "Big deal, I still hate it". Mandsford 20:41, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Phishing Alert

Those who happen by this page may wish to be on the alert for efforts to hack into their private email accounts.

As happened to one wikipedia editor, as described in short here.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

For your heads up on phishing

Gimme danger has given you some kittens! Kittens promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Kittens must be fed three times a day and will be your faithful companions forever! Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else some kittens, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

Spread the goodness of kittens by adding {{subst:Kittens}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message.

Kittens think fish are delicious. Phish, not so much. Danger (talk) 01:40, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Sam Fuld

Since you seem to be active there, I thought I'd let you know I've started the review at Talk:Sam Fuld/GA1. Best, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:00, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, I thank you for your contribution to one of wikipedia's latest WP:GA's

This user helped promote Sam Fuld to good article status.

--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:34, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Fuld again

Wow, your talk page is almost as busy as mine! Anyway, I've passed Fuld. Nice work. :) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:50, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Here:

This user helped promote Sam Fuld to good article status.

FL?

I noticed your name and Sportswoman of the Year Award pop up on my watchlist. I think this could be an FL without a tremendous amount of work, though the scope needs to expand and include the 1980-1992 professional and amateur award winners. Interested in working together to get it there? Courcelles 10:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure thing! Sounds like a fine idea. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:21, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Great, I'll try to get the other tables in by the weekend. Courcelles 16:06, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Let me know if I owe you anything on this.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Copyright concerns – fair use rationale for images

Hi there. You recently uploaded a number of images with claims of fair use. In case you were not aware, a rationale of "for use in the infobox" is not sufficient. You must provide a detailed and valid reason for including the image in the article (the purpose) to explain why it meets our non-free content criteria policy. For the images you have uploaded I would say they are "the primary means of visual identification of the subject or topic". Please also see our non-free use rationale guideline for further guidance. Regards, _wjemather 10:20, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

In posting yet again on my talkpage, WJE has ignored my clear request that he not do so. A request that I have reiterated to him.

WJE was blocked just two months ago for disruption on my talk page, following his hounding me. WJE protested his block twice, his block was affirmed twice, and he then deleted all mention of his block from his talkpage.

The first affirming sysop said: "It's really not a good idea to fixate on another editor and get into a prolonged conflict with them, which you clearly have done." Yet now, two months later, here WJE is—doing it again. The fact that WJE fixated on my very few recent image-creation edits is a clear sign. The sysop appears to have been correct. I have asked that WJE stop.

The final affirming sysop said to WJE, as to WJE's disruption: "you do not convince me that you won't repeat it". That sysop appears to have been prescient, as well. I have again asked that WJE stop.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

As you have been told before, the raising of clear and obvious editing problems relating to policy is not hounding, and responding as you have with such accusations will not be tolerated. You would also do well not to quote people out of context and misrepresent what they have actually said.

Despite Greg reaffirming that you must provide proper rationale for these images and giving further guidance, and having had plenty of time, you have still not done so. In my view is is unwise for an editor with an open CCI case to demonstrate further total disregard for copyright issues. This is the final warning you will receive in this regard. Please do as requested and rectify this as soon as possible. _wjemather 08:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Greg also reaffirms that you, WJE, by coming here less than 24 hours later to badger him about how he hasn’t reacted quickly enough—at least to your satisfaction—after you pointed out the shortcomings of his work, is poor form. You’re acting like a 12-year-old. To use your imperious style: Final warning. Greg L (talk) 14:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• I note the highly personal tone in this section, but can we just discuss the fundamental issue(s). The lack of references to specific images makes it difficult to assess the situation, as each fair use claim is highly context-dependent. For example, far use is almost never acceptable when it comes to even low-res images of living people, but are almost universally accepted to illustrate books and albums. So, could we have some concrete examples, please? --Ohconfucius 02:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• Fair question.

First of all, the truly fundamental issue is being discussed at AN/I here. The issue being, given the history of hounding and warnings described there, and the most current events in the wake of the recent 2-day block of WJE for same, how we should address matters.

Second, as to the substantive "image rationale" question you pose, the simple answer is that WJE failed to supply any diffs. But I would guess he is referring to my add of an image and rationale for a book cover (no images of people) of a book on philanthropy. And my similar adds of 5 covers/logos of local US Jewish newspapers (again, no images of people; let me know if you need those diffs as well).

He attacked my "use in infobox" rationale for the images. However, that is the accepted rationale for many thousands of such images.

Furthermore, I added those images and rationales only after receiving precise, detailed advice from senior editor Beyond My Ken (who focuses on images), which I followed.

See BMK advice, and BMK's comments on the substance of WJE's assertions here ("technically correct, but in my opinion is being overly pedantic. ... As far as I am aware, most people understand that "for use in the infobox" means "to visually identify the subject of the article" or whatever wordage the editor used. Per WP:BURO I don't think it's absolutely necessary to change what you did (on my advice)").

Inasmuch as WJE has been requested to stop posting on my tp, and I would hope he will comply with my request at this point so as to not violate wp:harass, I imagine if he wishes to communicate with you on this issue he will do so on your tp or in some other manner.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• I would agree with the description 'pedantic'. He may have a point if there is no critical commentary on the cover itself within the article, but such use without commentary is largely ignored, or overlooked as being a mere technicality. Also, Mather doesn't seem to be previously interested in image use. Unusual enough to re-ignite suspected hounding as motivation, given history of bad blood between you two. --Ohconfucius 03:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Place of birth in lead

Epeefleche, wanted to get back to you on message about place of birth in the lead of articles. Most of the high-quality biography articles, ones rated Good Article or Featured class, seem to omit place of birth/death from the parenthetical opening to the lead. Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (biographies) appears to support that practice as well. I agree with the omission because it makes the leads cleaner looking. Place of birth/death can be listed in the infobox and should be integrated where appropriate into the body of the article or farther down in the lead if important enough. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:44, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Ntrepid

Hi Epeefleche, Just wondering – if you've any spare time – if you'd have a look at Ntrepid to see whether anything can be added etc. I'd like to take it to DYK but it's a bit on the short side; there's not much info on this shadowy organisation. Thanks, Ericoides (talk) 07:50, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

referencing redlinks in lists of people

Hi, I know you help clear out unreferenced redlinks in lists of people - I have a question about the guidelines there on which I'd be interested to hear your view. Dsp13 (talk) 21:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

List of table tennis players

Hello again Epeefleche,

so I agree with you that a wikipage or a reference should be present for each player in the list. For this reason I'm beginning to create missing wikipages. Therefor I gently ask you to not remove random players from the list since the list is curretly acting as my reference point. If you would like to helo you could create missing players wikipages.Cialo (talk) 14:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) - Hi, if articles of these people are going to be created later it should be easy to provide a single WP:RS that supports them being in the list. Other wise the redlinked names are worse than useless to the reader and encourage drive by additions of any name at all. Ivan Andreadis this for example (and others) sits there uncited and unexplained without any worth at all. Off2riorob (talk) 14:22, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

List of table tennis players

Thank you for your work with dab... I have created the table tennis players paged and linked ;) --Cialo (talk) 13:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Ike Davis

Just an FYI, posted a GA review. Staxringold _talk 22:38, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Wjemather

I have closed the thread and imposed an interaction ban on Wjemather. I doubt the advice is needed but: avoid interacting with him, even though the sanction is technically not two way. FWIW I feel there was no consensus to block him at this time, esp. as it is something of a "one-off" since the last block he had (and I am inclined to mark it down as a last chance). Hopefully by not interacting that simply solves the problem. Cheers. :) --Errant 00:04, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:00, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Nice choices

I appreciate your taking the time to select some images for List of sports-related people from Mississippi (diff). Given the number of available choices, I like the selections that you made. — CobraWiki 17:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Danny Valencia/GA1

Started the review! Staxringold _talk

RFC discussion of User:Philip Baird Shearer

A request for comments has been filed concerning the conduct of Philip Baird Shearer (talk · contribs). You are invited to comment on the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Philip Baird Shearer. -- Parrot of Doom 11:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Contredanse (band)

I have removed the prod tag you placed on Contredanse (band), as per policy an article that has been discussed at AfD (as this one was in 2007) is permanently ineligible for prod. Compliance with policy is the only reason I did this; please do not interpret this action as my endorsement for keeping the article. If you still wish to pursue deletion, feel free to open another AfD. —KuyaBriBri 18:09, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Good call. Completely agree. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:24, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

And ... it has now been deleted.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Polish music prods

Can you slow down with the prods of Polish musical groups and bands? Just looking quickly at the large number you recently prodded I can tell that you're tagging a lot of groups which are very clearly notable (anyone even vaguely familiar with Polish rock music would have heard of them - which is also evidence by the interiwiki links in some of them). But at the rate you're going it might be difficult to keep up with you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Not a problem. All of them in fact failed A7 in my view. They lacked indicia of notability, such as 2 notable musicians, or albums for notable labels, or appropriate awards, etc. For example, Exodus (Polish band), which you just prodded, saying that the notability was "already indicated in the article" -- I can't find such an indication that meets wp criteria for notability of bands (and the article is completely bereft of references). If they are notable per wp rules, I'm happy for them to remain of course. Perhaps you can find support that is not reflected in the current sourcing, which is reflected in the Polish media. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:52, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

For that one, I'da thought that "one of the leading progressive rock bands in Polish rock in late 70s and early 80s" would've been enough. I realize that a lot of these are stubs and unsourced and I wouldn't have a problem with this if it was spread out over time but I (or I expect, others) am not going to have enough time to fix them all at once. Btw, can you leave a note about which ones you prodded/tagged at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Poland? I know about a lot of those, but some, especially the more recent ones, I am not familiar with and there's probably folks there that can help. Thanks.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:00, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I didn't see anything that meets the guidelines. "A leading band" is not a criterion. And because we need a "credible" claim to notability, I think that when the only statement is "X band -- a leading band" -- and the like, without any support, and without even any indication of indicia used to to measure whether they are a "leading" band, that A7 is appropriate in any event. You can see what is PROD'd on my recent contributions list. I don't intend to prod any more this month, but may AfD some depending on how they look as PRODs are removed, so in that sense there is a bit of flux. And, of course, PRODs are removed, as well as tags, so the whole matter is in flux as a result of that. Feel free to look at what I have PROD'd, and leave the note you mention. It will be great if Polish-speakers can bring them up to non-PRODable status, to the extent that can be accomplished. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:05, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

The Shipwrecks and The Bash (band)

I've restored both of these articles per a request at WP:REFUND. However, I'm curious as to why you used a CSD rationale as your PROD reason. If you think these 2 articles should be speedy deleted then why not just use {{db-band}}? --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:05, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Ahah -- thanks for the pointer, Ron. I see -- I've been using the speedy rationale, but putting the articles through a non-speedy process.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Brunette Models|concern=A7

I don't agree that Brunette Models is proposed that this article has been deleted. This team is very significant in Poland. Is played in Europe, the U.S. and worldwide. It is one of the precursors of ambient-style music in Poland. Sorry, does the proposal to remove is because Brunette Models has a Jewish origin and he has problems with the organization of the Nazi Redwatch? Maybe the same person suggests the deletion of Misplaced Pages, and that other one portal?

• Brunette Models on REDWATCH website

Thanks and regards! Γραφή (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:58, 22 May 2011 (UTC).

No, I'm not seeking to delete the article because of an anti-Semitic leaning on my part, driving me to delete the article because the band has a Jewish origin. And no, I am not seeking to delete the article because of any personal bias on my part in favor of Nazi organizations.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Aerolit

As I see you ventured boldly into a whole hornet's nest of underdeveloped band artciles. After some thought I agree with your work: if someone cares about them, they must take care. Otherwise wikipedia may quickly turn into a source of misinformation, since it is often blindly copied in multitudes, especiallty for little known topics. Muslim lo Juheu (talk) 17:36, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, your take is correct. I'm a fan of bands, and fully supportive of us having good articles. And, as you can tell, my primary focus on wp is content creation. Having articles on bands that do not meet our standards waters down the helpfulness of the project, IMHO. But I would always prefer to have support for notability discovered, and an article kept. And this area is one that does appear to attract more non-notable articles than many other areas. Your note is especially appreciated, of course, as we have different views as to one particular band article. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:16, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Pancake images

You're welcome. And thanks for informing me of that; I wasn't aware that MoS had a guideline for that. What's ironic is that I myself don't generally care for sandwiching images like that, but in trying to make the images work in that article, I thought they ended up looking all right. Can you link me to the relevant MoS page? I'll look it over and remove some of the images if need be. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 23:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your discretion and even-handedness. I particularly appreciate the MoS link, largely because I have now discovered the Picture Tutorial, which shows me how to co-align images, which I've never gotten around to learning how to do. Thanks! Nightscream (talk) 23:40, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

incomplete AFD

• Chittay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

You left an incomplete AFD there. Just FYI, I found it when I was going through the weekly list. tedder (talk) 14:31, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Tx. I'm not sure what the SNAFU is. I'm leaving all through twinkle. Some seem to be incomplete I learn (when I bot completes them ... which seems to be what happens if they are left as-is). How do I check if any one I've twinkled is incomplete through some twinkle snafu, and if they are how do I perform the last step? Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, if Misplaced Pages is heavily loaded Twinkle will sometimes fail. A bot will complete step 3, but not step 2. (steps at WP:AFDHOWTO. To check for incomplete step 2, reload the article page and make sure the AFD discussion link isn't a redlink. To check for step 3, you can look for "what links here" on the AFD discussion. But again, step3 can be picked up by a bot, so I worry about it less. But step 2 involves your argument for deletion. Sometimes I'll copy the deletion rationale from the twinkle popup box- if it fails, I can try again and paste the rationale. tedder (talk) 16:03, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll check for redlinks as you suggest. In the meantime, I PRODed the article, which seemed to work, and perhaps is what I should have done in the first place. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

No worries. Most "step 2 incompletes" are an IP who doesn't leave rationale or something similar- when I saw it was a more productive editor than I am, I figured it was worth letting you know about it. tedder (talk) 16:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: H'Sao

Hello Epeefleche. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of H'Sao, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Probably sufficient info to avoid Speedy. maybe PROD or AfD would be a better choice. Thank you. Alexf 18:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

What "sufficient info" are you referring to? Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:00, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks

Just a simple thanks for your hard work! Regards, Tinton5 (talk) 19:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Féfé

Hi Epeefleche, I found some independent review material from the NRJ Music Awards that covers Féfé, and also added some information from it to the article, and have commented on the afD noting my changes. However, Féfé really seems to be tied strongly to the much more notable K'Naan. I'm a little new to the deletion process, so I wondered whether merging the information into the K'Naan article might make any sense, since there are indeed very few articles that cover Féfé exclusively. Let me know what you think. I Jethrobot (talk) 20:56, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

FYI

Just wanted you to know that I struck my delete vote at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Shaarei Tefillah based upon your improvements to the article. Good job. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:10, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations.

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		For your efforts on Aafia Siddiqui.

Well done on keeping your composure and fighting the good fight. Cheers- V7-sport (talk) 06:57, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Your contributed article, Earl Williams (basketbal coachl)

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

Hello, I notice that you recently created a new page, Earl Williams (basketbal coachl). First, thank you for your contribution; Misplaced Pages relies solely on the efforts of volunteers such as you. Unfortunately, the page you created covers a topic on which we already have a page - this was a tyop. Because of the duplication, your article has been tagged for speedy deletion. Please note that this is not a comment on you personally and we hope you will continue helping to improve Misplaced Pages. If the topic of the article you created is one that interests you, then perhaps you would like to help out at this was a tyop - you might like to discuss new information at the article's talk page.

If you think that the article you created should remain separate, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion ({{db-...}}) tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Additionally if you would like to have someone review articles you create before they go live so they are not nominated for deletion shortly after you post them, allow me to suggest the article creation process and using our search feature to find related information we already have in the encyclopedia. Try not to be discouraged. Misplaced Pages looks forward to your future contributions. Epeefleche (talk) 00:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Give me one good reason why I shouldn't block you per WP:DTTR :) --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:54, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

That is the funniest thing I have read on these pages in MONTHS! Thanks for giving me a good belly laugh! Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Sourcing for Dan Grunfeld and Franklin Lakes

I saw your addition of Dan Grunfeld as a notable to the article for Franklin Lakes, New Jersey. No source was included to support his residence there. I know that his father Ernie Grunfeld lived there during Dan's early childhood to teens, as is stated and sourced in Ernie's article, but I can't find any reliable and verifiable source to support that Dan lived there. The same issue applies to his inclusion on the New Jersey notables article. I have very strong reasons to believe he did live in Franklin Lakes, but without a source there's an issue. What source were you relying on? Alansohn (talk) 20:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I was working off of its entry in his wp article, but it is further supported by a NY Daily News article ( "The kitchen of the Grunfeld home in Franklin Lakes, N.J.... On one wall is a family picture, puzzle style, with five pieces. Four of the pieces are Ernie Grunfeld, his wife, Nancy, and their children, Rebecca and Danny.") and a Newsday article ("The Jersey Kid Danny Grunfeld of Franklin Lakes N.J. is only 8 yet he emerged as one of the leaders of the Wildcats Maybe it's genetic his father Ernie..."), and a Jewish Tribune article ("Dan Grunfeld ... was born in Livingston, NJ, before moving to nearby Franklin Lakes."). Perhaps you limited your search to "Dan", and missed the RSs mentioning "Danny" and "Daniel" (there are more under Daniel as well)?--Epeefleche (talk) 21:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I sometimes have to remind myself of alternate versions of names and how Google doesn't think of that for you. There was a source staring me in the face in the article about his father that says he lives in Franklin Lakes with his children, including Danny. I realized immediately that I had missed potential sources, but I had what I needed. Thanks again for the other sources. Alansohn (talk) 22:34, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Well done!

Just wanted to say well done for creating so many well-referenced articles on Israelis recently! I assume you are trying to complete the set of the 200 greatest Israelis? If you are planning on creating any more, it would be worth linking them to the corresponding article in the Hebrew Misplaced Pages, which may also be able to provide more information (for instance, I garnered Dan Shilon's birthdate and place of birth. Cheers, Number 57 15:44, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks. Yes -- I've been using the list as a starting point for some articles; exactly right. I'm not sure I know how to link them to the corresponding Hebrew articles -- feel free to let me know how, or do it yourself. I do sometimes look at other language articles for sourcing, but only use the underlying RSs for info, if I can read the language. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:35, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

All you have to do is find the article on the Hebrew Misplaced Pages and then use its title to link it from the English one (i.e. for Dan Shilon it was ]. If you don't have a Hebrew enabled keyboard, this should help! Cheers, Number 57 09:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

new articles - Israel project

Hi Epeefleche - since you've recently added a whole bunch of new articles, I've listed them here. It would be really great if you could list them yourself, though, since it takes a while for them to show up on the radar. --Sreifa (talk) 06:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Jack Mealey

Great work expanding the Jack Mealey page. Alex (talk) 02:15, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

FYI

Cheers for writing the article Hanna Zemer. Please try to use the template {{WikiProject Israel}} and not WP Israel (for compatibility reasons). —Ynhockey 09:53, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

List of Sardinians

could you stop to continue to cancel part of the article? "There must be an article on the subject, or a ref--or the entry is to be deleted" is it a rule of wikipedia? if it creates proplems to you, begin to write an article about the subjects! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.10.250.134 (talk) 17:49, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

• Yes -- it is a rule of wikipedia. See WP:LISTPEOPLE. We don't encourage people to add names to lists of people, where there is no wp article on the person, and no refs indicating that the person is notable.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

A neutral party would be invaluable

There is currently a dispute resolution open for a page I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to resolve, Heroes in Hell. The dispute page is located here and the relevant dialogue related to this dispute is on the talk page of the article. It would be helpful to get another opinion in here from someone uninvolved with the dispute. I must warn you though, you might want to get comfy before you start going through this material-- there's a lot to read. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 04:55, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Citation Strange Son

In the article Strange Son, the citation is the one that appears next. I'm not sure how it isn't clear that the citation with the sentence, "Nigel Cole (A Lot Like Love; Calendar Girls) has signed on to helm Strange Son for Revolution Studios, Variety has revealed." doesn't make it clear what is the correct citation for the sentence. Joe Chill (talk) 19:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

There are multiple citations that follow the sentence, so without cluing in the reader they don't know -- just from looking at the article, without clicking through -- which applies. In any event, IMHO it is better to add a fn to the sentence. It is your hook sentence. Also, the sentence can always be separated from the sentence that follows it, by a later editor. This ensures that you will not end up with your ref in a a succeeding para, where it would not be seen as applying. Also, btw, this is a US subject -- which is why I changed the date format from British to US. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:37, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

That's fine. I understand your reasoning. I had editors repeatedly tell me to cite sources that way (must be British). I also had editors repeatedly tell me that the plot didn't need to be cited because the book, film, or whatever is the citation (must be confused, I can't find anything that says that). Joe Chill (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

No worries. As to the first point, next time that happens you can direct the mis-informed editors to read WP:STRONGNAT. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

A brownie for you!

Thanks for your great work on Hebrew authors! Ijon (talk) 21:06, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Dates

Hi. Please don't make random formatting changes to the date articles as you have done here. The date articles conform to a template and the formatting shouldn't be changed without discussion to consensus at WT:DAYS. Thanks. – Mufka 23:26, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

The formatting change you point to has nothing in it that's specific to dates – it is a dash formatting change that has been widely used and accepted across the project for years. There is nothing inherent in date pages that I can imagine would require that they be treated differently than other Project pages in this respect.

(And I can't imagine why you called it a "random" change – it was nothing of the sort).

Following WP:YEARLINK on date pages. But now that we are on the subject, I notice we have an overlink problem on the date pages. They fail to follow the project guideline relating to overlinking of years, which is set forth at WP:YEARLINK – the pages generally link the first mention of each year. Our guideline states plainly:

Year articles (1795, 1955, 2007) should not be linked unless they contain information that is germane and topical to the subject matter—that is, the events in the year article should share an important connection other than merely that they occurred in the same year. For instance, Timeline of World War II (1942) may be linked to from another article about WWII, and so too may 1787 in science when writing about a particular development on the metric system in that year. However, the years of birth and death of architect Philip C. Johnson should not be linked, because little, if any, of the contents of 1906 and 2005 are germane to either Johnson or to architecture.

Can you please explain why raw years are linked on the date pages, in contravention of our overlink rules?

Others who care about such things watch this page I know – feel free to chime in.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:05, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll start with the formatting change. I understand that on its face this wouldn't seem like a formatting change but the date pages are kind of their own animal. The dashes are more heavily used in the date articles than anywhere else. Most users don't know the difference between – and – and usually would use - if given the choice. We had a mix of these before and changing to the common – solves the problem – passing editors don't have a problem copying the example set by all the other entries. It helps to keep the 366 date articles consistent. As far as linking years is concerned, the date pages are a bit out of the normal MOS in that regard as well. From the MOS: "not be linked unless they contain information that is germane and topical to the subject matter". In this case, the date articles are about dates and linking is appropriate. The WP:DAYS guideline does say that the year should only be linked once per section. And the only reason I called the change random was that you only did it to one out of 366 pages. -- Mufka 18:05, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Following Project dash guideline on date pages. I see no reason for not following the Project dash guideline in date pages. We have many pages that have heavy use of dashes, other than dates, across the project, including "People from" pages and the like. Furthermore, the few hundred date pages are a fraction of the pages that use dashes. For purposes of respecting wp guidelines, and for consistency, those pages should follow wp guidelines -- that's the purpose of guidelines. And as to your assertion that: "The dashes are more heavily used in the date articles than anywhere else", while as I point out above that assertion is of questionable accuracy, it is also of no moment even if true -- we follow guidelines on all applicable pages; we don't suspend the dash guideline on " more heavily used" pages, just because dashes are more heavily used -- any more than we would suspend any other format guideline on a page with heavy usage of the notation in question (whether it be a dash, quote, period, ref, etc.).

Following Project WP:YEARLINK guideline on date pages. Here again, there is no reason that I can see for the date pages to violate the clear wp guideline. Your assertion that "As far as linking years is concerned, the date pages are a bit out of the normal MOS in that regard as well" is not borne out by the MOS. There is language that is more specific,, that I had already quoted to you above, relating specifically to the linking of years. It makes clear that the linking at the date pages is not appropriate, and does not fall within what is "germane and topical to the subject matter". It says: "the years of birth and death of architect Philip C. Johnson should not be linked, because little, if any, of the contents of 1906 and 2005 are germane to either Johnson or to architecture. Yet this is precisely what you are doing on the date pages -- flouting the very precise language of the guideline.

As to your last point, there is nothing "random" in making a completely consistent, non-random change to every dash in an article, consistent with formatting across the Project for years. That is non-random. One doesn't have to change every date article to avoid the disparaging accusation of their changes being random. If I changed one of every three dashes within the article, that would be random, but wholly consistent changes across the article are obviously (I would have thought) non-random.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Remember that guidelines are just that. They are not laws and they need to be applied with an understanding of their principles and the reason why they are to be applied. In the case of the date articles, experience has shown that applying the suggestions in the guideline leads to inconsistency and a maintenance headache. Adhering to the guideline for the sake of doing so is not practical.

In articles about dates the date itself is relevant and so is a year. If nothing ever linked to a year article, they would all be orphans. They wouldn't even be walled gardens because they couldn't even link amongst themselves. Why would we have year articles if nothing ever linked to them? -- Mufka 20:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Remember that wp guidelines are there for an important purpose. Misplaced Pages guidelines are developed by the community to describe best practice. Here, the guideline speaks directly to the issue at hand. You haven't indicated any reason to flout the guideline other than IDON'TLIKEIT, and NOTLAW -- we don't build the project based on flouting consensus on that basis. There is no "understanding" of the principles that is lacking -- the example I have now quoted twice to you directly addressed the linking of years relative to a person's date of birth or death. And your "headache" article is no different that the "headache" suffered at other article -- this just sounds like a non-consensus approach being applied in a less-than-400-articles corner of a Project with millions of articles. I suggest that we bring the inlining of dates issue up at the guideline page that speaks directly to the issue, at the talkpage for WP:YEARLINK. I don't think you've addressed the conflict between the very clear terms of the guideline, and your "we follow our own rules" view. Would you like to kick off the discussion, or should I? In short, I think that the date pages should follow WP:YEARLINK, and don't think they do now.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

It's very clear to me why WP:YEARLINK shouldn't apply to the date articles. I'd be shocked if the authors of the guideline intended that no year should ever be linked. By your argument I can see no scenario in which a year would be linked. I don't know how to express more clearly that a date article is of the same subject matter as a year article. Philip Johnson is a biographical article; it is not about dates and there isn't a year article about him. The date articles are about dates and therefore linking dates within them is entirely appropriate. I've given my interpretation of the practice and haven't implied that it's that way because I like it but it seems entirely reasonable to me. I invite you to begin the discussion in the appropriate forum so that you will have the full advantage of forming your case against this practice. I will certainly enforce any consensus that is reached through the discussion. -- Mufka 21:35, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Ryan Lavarnway

On 4 September 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Ryan Lavarnway, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Yale University alumnus Ryan Lavarnway employs the "tools of ignorance" as a rookie for the Boston Red Sox? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Ryan Lavarnway.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 08:03, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding File:Yoni-candid.jpg

I have removed File:Yoni-candid.jpg which you added to 1973 Israeli raid on Lebanon with this edit, because it does not have a valid non-free media use rationale for the article. Please see Misplaced Pages:Non-free content for the applicable policy and Misplaced Pages:Non-free use rationale guideline if you want to address the issues. Thank you. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 13:08, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I see that there is already a FUR, the terms of which apply to the use. Would you like me to clarify that the FUR applies to the use in question? Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The file must have a separate rationale for each article where the file is used and each rationale must give the name of the respective article where the file is used (see WP:NFCC Policy 10c). WP:FURG shows how to write the rationale. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 08:52, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I will get around to giving it a look. That is helpful.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:20, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Danielle Frenkel

I believe archiving is a better solution, but it's your place... that's why I like to copy discussions to my TP... actually, the only info on the Heb page I found no verification is about her studies... it was probably written in some profile article in newspaper or magazine... just yesterday while waiting for a doctor appointment I read one of these in a women's magazine (that's the kind of stuff you usually find there)... if you don't mind, please check if my edits didn't make a mess of the refs...--Nitsansh (talk) 03:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Next time you want to do an article on a Israeli athlete (Jewish or not...), I'll be happy to help... there's lot of sources that were published in Hebrew only that you won't find unless you read the language...--Nitsansh (talk) 03:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

To each his own. I will check the article at some point. I don't know if you entered it, but one item missing when I last looked at it was her city of birth. Thanks. Good to know an editor with command of and access to Hebrew papers ... we just saw an article deleted in part, I believe, because of the lack of any such (willing) editors.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:02, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup of non-notable bio articles

Hi. Thanks for your note on my page. I admit that when I recommended the Michal Heiman article for deletion, it was my intention that it be deleted, not improved. The fact that someone came along and greatly improved the article was a happy accident. But I did not nominate it for deletion with that intention. In fact, I still think the subject is not notable enough to warrant inclusion, but now that the article is properly edited and sourced, it meets - minimally - the standard. I actually also disagree with the idea that it's up to the nominator to do the research to support notability - that should be up to the author. But I accept that this is a community standard and shall not raise a stink. I also still believe that the Reuben Jones article is not notable, either, but the military crowd seems to disagree and again, that is a battle that isn't worth fighting. Thanks for your tips and though I still feel my nominations were accurate, this is a community effort after all so I will not object. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Finsternis (talk • contribs) 04:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Understood. Thanks for your note. There is much on wp that many of us individual editors find incorrect, silly, or wrong-headed that is backed by consensus. Sometimes it is a consensus of very few editors. Take the wp rule as to quotes -- that tells us not to include the final punctuation mark within quotation marks, in circumstances where all reputable style guides would include it within quotation marks. Or ... I could go on. Much here is not intuitive, and does not follow common sense (e.g. ... "let's make sure that date of birth and place of birth appear in different sections, unlike all other encyclopedias"). Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:06, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Unreferenced Biographical Content

Hello. You recently gave me a warning for unreferenced content in the biography of a living person. I can certainly understand your likely thought process in doing so, but I feel inclined to defend my reputation. When I read the warning, I was particularly confused because I never remembered reading, or editing, the article in question: Ryan Braun. Upon inspection, it was labeled as an edit performed with Huggle; however, I have no memory of reverting the deletion of information regarding Braun's sexuality. More interestingly, the automatically created edit summary says that I reverted four consecutive edits in one click. This last bit of information shows that something strange was happening. I believe I figured out what.

After looking through the recent edits to that page, I noticed one which I have a memory of seeing and reverting on Huggle. I made the controversial revert while scrolling back a bit to older edits made a few minutes before. The aforementioned edit, it seems, was vandalism built on vandalism; when I saw it, I clicked "revert". However, in the three minutes that had elapsed since 24.36.38.61's edit at 1:39, other edits had been made, including good-faith ones. Huggle, thus, reverted all edits made at and after 1:39, while I did not know that such edits had been made. In the past, I had seen Huggle stopping me from accidently editing pages that had been already reverted between the time I was seeing them and the time they were loaded onto Huggle, so I assumed that this would always be the case. Apparently it wasn't.

I apologize for any misunderstanding, and hope that I have explained adequately how my controversial revert was, due to partially human and partially computer error, reverting the wrong things. Thank you for reading. Marechal Ney (talk) 03:15, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Ahah. Many thanks. Yes ... when I see an editor adding an unreferenced statement that a living person said they are gay, I tend to give a warning. But I totally understand your explanation, and am sorry that the computer snafu caused the misunderstanding. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:20, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Minor barnstar
	I award you this barnstar for having the utmost best contributions to Misplaced Pages. Will a little star do for all your huge contributions? Pinkstrawberry02™ 03:37, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Note to user getting this message: Please reply on Pinkstrawberry02's talk page. If for some reason you can't, please leave them a {{talkback}} and reply on your own user page. Thank you for your understanding!

Márton Vas

Hello!

Just wanted to say thanks for your kind words :) Actually, it was you who "forced" me to make the related article a bit better, as following you created the talk page it appeared in my watchlist and when checked the page I was so terrible upset to see in what condition the article is. (Duh, I hate to see one line stubs. Why did I not expand it earlier...)

On the other hand, as I saw, you edited a lot of Jewish related articles so I guess you have the knowledge and sources. Márton has a younger brother, János Vas, who has to be a Jew as well. Maybe is there a reference that supports it? It could be a good addition to the article. -- Thehoboclown (talk) 13:44, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

On Mike Morse (Baseball)

My reliable source on Mike Morse (Baseball) being engaged is I know the woman he is engaged to. It's not published in an article, but I do know for a fact that they are engaged. Please put that back up on Misplaced Pages.

Thank You — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.116.187.166 (talk) 00:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry. But that is not how wp works. You need a reliable source for such an entry. Personal knowledge does not suffice. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:50, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Angel Orensanz Center

On 25 October 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Angel Orensanz Center, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the Angel Orensanz Center is housed in a Gothic Revival synagogue building built in 1849? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Angel Orensanz Center.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 12:02, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

List of swimmers

I agree with deletion of swimmers with no articles or RS supporting them. I've expanded the intro to better specify inclusion criteria, and added a source for one of the redlinks.

Per WP:BURDEN we should do a cursory search on the web/news/books for RS before deleting the rest of the redlinks. Since WP:N doesn't apply to list contents, but WP:V does, how about using large athlete statistics websites as sufficient RS for inclusion or a news article? Stats sites have been used as RS in vast swaths of sports articles, so how about this one? Of course, wherever multiple RS are found, the athlete's article should just be stubbed and sourced. --Lexein (talk) 13:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Per wp:LISTPEOPLE, which is the most relevant guideline as it applies specifically to lists of this sort, the burden is on the person adding the name in the first place -- they should simply not add non-referenced redlinks ("A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met ... The person meets the Misplaced Pages notability requirement... If a person in a list does not have an article in Misplaced Pages about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to establish their membership in the list's group and to establish their notability.... The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources....." Note -- per the above, the people on such lists must in fact be notable -- we don't add names of swimmers, for example, who exist but who are non-notable.

Per WP:BURDEN, as well, the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds the material in the first place, and we may remove any such inappropriate unsupported material. This is especially true of BLPs. Lists of people are magnets for people adding red-linked names, lacking any sourcing whatsoever. There are thousands of such entries, though I've personally likely cleared out thousands. My problem is with the low-hanging fruit primarily -- those entries that lack any article as well as any RS refs ... I have no problem with using reliable sports stats sites, such as sports-reference. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:49, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if I was unclear. I'm well aware of the problem with additions of redlinks, such as at List of indie rock musicians. WP:BURDEN also asserts the good practice of trying to find RS before deleting an unsourced claim. I tend to apply this, because I'm big on preserving, but fine with deleting unsourceable material after checking. WP:LISTPEOPLE does indeed answer the general question, but at List of swimmers you'd keep low hanging fruit items which are delinked and possess an inline RS citation? I'm thinking mainly of Olympic and Nationals placers. --Lexein (talk) 09:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi. The way that I read it, wp:LISTPEOPLE is the more specific applicable guideline, and the one therefore in my mind to focus on most. It is pretty clear on this. BLP issues raise the bar even further -- and encourage on-sight deletions of unreferenced material. The talk page discussions at wp:LISTPEOPLE are even more draconian -- many editors read it to require deletion if there are not multiple refs per entry, saying one ref for a redlink is not sufficient. Further, some (minority) editors believe all entries should have refs, whether a bluelink entry or redlink. In any event, the general language that you point to in the more general guideline is of course a nice, good practice thing to do -- but that language is not as strong as the other language, which is more specific, and common sense makes it impractical for me to check all such entries on lists. There are tons of inappropriate bare redlinks -- a high percentage are not appropriate, and the entering editor can't go around foisting responsibility on good-faith editors who are cleaning up a list, by making them do research where the entering editor clearly violated the rules with the add in the first place. And little is lost -- we are speaking about bare entries here, completely content-less. If you wish to spend time researching all such entries, that is of course fine, but its not something that is an obligation under the guidelines for other editors to follow. If you think my view is not the common understanding, however, feel free to raise the issue at wp:LISTPEOPLE at the talk page, and just let me know and I will join the conversation. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:15, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. I certainly didn't intend to take up this much of your time. The LISTPEOPLE Talk archives are illuminating. I was not imposing any expectation on you about sourcing! So far, the redlinks at List of swimmers#Lithuania seem appropriate - they all seem to have records and strong placings, so I've unlinked and sourced several. (I prefer to use the word violation only when real harm is probable or real mal-intent is evident which could expose WP to legal liability). I see your point about foisting, and I resent it when it's clear that that's what's happening. And have no fear of me delving into a career as a redlink rehabber . --Lexein (talk) 15:32, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Rehabbers are always welcome!--Epeefleche (talk) 23:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Lon Myers

On 9 November 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Lon Myers, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that runner Lon Myers (pictured), who set 11 world records, won one race with only one shoe, and another while running sideways? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Lon Myers.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:02, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	I should have sent this earlier, although still trying to figure out these gadgets. Thank you very much for helping out on Jewish-related articles and saving several pages from being deleted. Excellent work and keep it up! Tinton5 (talk) 17:26, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Margie Goldstein-Engle

On 12 November 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Margie Goldstein-Engle, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Margie Goldstein-Engle (pictured), who as a child cleaned out horse stalls to pay for riding lessons, became a 10-time American Grandprix Association Rider of the Year? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Margie Goldstein-Engle.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 12:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Lilli Henoch

On 15 November 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Lilli Henoch, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Jewish athlete Lilli Henoch, winner of ten German track and field championships, was murdered with her mother by the Nazis during the Holocaust? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Lilli Henoch.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

AfD tag formatting

It appears that within the AfD template when placed in articles, there needs to be spaces between the vertical bars "|" where the page name is within the template. Otherwise, the link to the AfD is a red link. When the spaces are present, the link functions properly. Northamerica1000 23:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. Odd. I'm using Twinkle ... do you think it has a kink? Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Turns out it's a matter of purging the cache. When doing so, the red link becomes functional. Someone directed me to the information at WP:PURGE. Northamerica1000 00:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Copyright concerns

Hi Epeefleche,

Please if I can ask you for help regarding the issue of one particular edition, reflected on my talk-page. In my edition on the subject of J Street I was accused by user Malik Shabazz for Copyright violation As you are highly respected expert in this field I would like you to ask for your opinion regarding this issue. I am sure that my edition (which was removed by user Malik Shabazz do not constitute Copyright violation).

Here is my article that was written at http://en.wikipedia.org/J_Street#Funding and later removed by Malik

According to the The Washington Times, J street has been co-funded by directors of organizations such as the Arab American Institute and the National Iranian American Council. Also, J Street funds have been raised from a lawyer who represented the embassy of Saudi Arabia in Washington, and from Ray Close, a former foreign agent for Saudi Arabia, who was also a CIA station chief in Saudi Arabia, and have allegedly worked for the former head of Saudi intelligence service. The Washington Times reported that J Street had been paying Ben-Or Consulting, a company which is partially owned by Ben Ami, tens of thousands of dollars. This findings, presented by The Washington Times, are showing that Ben-Or Consulting , the Tel Aviv-based company partially owned by Ben-Ami, charged J Street at least 56,000 dollars in consultation fees, prompting charity experts to raise ethical issues regarding Ben Ami's conflict of interest and self- dealinghttp://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/dec/30/jewish-group-pays-pr-firm-co-owned-by-president/?page=1

Objections stated by Malik Shabazz are looking non sense for me, and are written on my talk-page- Please can you give me your opinion on this issue? --Tritomex (talk) 02:14, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Will take a look when I have a moment, though I don't have one right now. As to Malik Shabazz, I have generally found him to be an editor with whom one can have a thoughtful conversation, and would suggest that you pursue that tack for the moment. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Kurt Epstein

On 16 November 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Kurt Epstein, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Czechoslovakian Olympic water polo player Kurt Epstein survived two Nazi concentration camps? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Kurt Epstein.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Panyd 08:03, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Epeefleche. Thanks for the kind words. I did the date formatting based on him being born in Czech and representing them at the Olympics, but I have no issue with your rationale for the current format. Another really interesting article on an Olympic athlete! Lugnuts (talk) 18:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, some editors can get bogged down in trivial edit wars over formatting issues, etc. As long as the dates are correct that's the main thing! Good question about the Olympic athletes for 2012. I guess most of them would already be notable - IE they're already established in their sport and have now done enough for Olympic qualification, so there should be some sources to show general coverage. I aim to finish off the Olympic fencers from 1992 onwards, before picking another "minor" Olympic sport and working through the years on that. Lugnuts (talk) 20:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Tx. I, of course, applaud your focus on that "minor" sport. Nice work. --Epeefleche (talk) 20:18, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

No probs. WP:STRONGNAT might help with regards to the date formatting. I think I mentioned it before, but it's really interesting to read about former Olympic athletes, esp. those who fought and died during the wars. Still alot of work to do! Lugnuts (talk) 08:39, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

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your comment at AE

That whole sentence-in-each-article has to be revisited. It's the strangest thing I have ever come across Misplaced Pages. Templating dozens of articles with some new-fangled verbiage with RS's not on the direct subject? It violates all kinds of wiki-policies, let alone that no other encyclpedia has anything similar. Then editors are blocked if they don't follow the guideline? It's really wacko. Where is this discussion anyway? I found this discussion about proposal to add the word "settlement" into the first sentence of dozens of article and that failed as "no consensus." How and where did this happen? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it could my attention as well. And I had the same question as to where it "happened". I posed that query prominently in the AE discussion. And I agree -- it does seem to be at odds with our guidelines on synth. If it is an agreeable practice, and not a violation of synth, I do have a few thoughts (as also indicated) as to verbiage that we can agree on in a discussion, and then place in all articles that are related to -- but not mentioned in -- the source we use.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree with you.I think its obvious violation of WP:SYNTH.I think it should be revisited again.--Shrike (talk) 15:24, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy to be part of any discussion revisiting it. Any thoughts as to how best to initiate such a discussion? My thoughts are two-fold. One: It would be good to understand why such a result is not a violation of WP:SYNTH. Two: If it is not a violation, it would be interesting to apply the approach to a number of other areas.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Delila Hatuel

On 22 November 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Delila Hatuel, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Israeli Olympian Delila Hatuel trains both Jewish and Arab children in fencing? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Delila Hatuel.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Panyd 00:02, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

My 2¢ with Mkativerata

I thought I should let you know I have honest concerns about Mkativerata’s conduct and honestly and frankly expressed them on his talk page (∆ edit, here). Greg L (talk) 01:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

November 2011

Epeefleche (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I certainly didn't intend to disrupt the CCI, and don't intend to in the future.

Just the opposite. I had already firmly committed to assisting the CCI. And I've already started to help out at the CCI policy page.

I (mistakenly) honestly thought Mkat (M) was an involved editor in the I-P area. Because that is what his user page says. I also honestly was concerned that his blankings of bios of Olympic athletes were retribution, as I recalled reviewers leaving 1-line stubs instead. I now understand from M that he is not in fact an involved editor, and from Moon that blanking is the norm. I apologize to M for my mistakes, and hope he can understand how I made them honestly.

Further details, below.

1. Voluntary Clean-up. I acknowledged my mistakes. And I volunteered to help clean up my inadvertent copyvios, as I mentioned at ANI. In whatever way others considered most helpful. See my conversations with Elen, Moon, and M, in which the details of my assistance—including how I can delete violations I discover, flag checked text for the benefit of reviewers (without making any determinations myself), and timing—are discussed.

A significant number of commenting editors (Wizardman, Hut, etc) seem to have missed this completely. Their comments indicate they thought the opposite was the case.

BTW—I appreciate that M himself indicated that my more recent edits, over the past year, did not contain copyvios ("Fact: Everything I've seen Epeefleche create since the CCI started is copyvio-free."). I take my commitment here seriously, and I appreciate the gravity of copyright issues.

2. Support CCI. I'm fully supportive of the CCI moving forward. And have been fully supportive of all copyvios being deleted (if not fixed.) I've said this at ANI as well. The pace of remediation will accelerate with my assistance.

I'm also happy to volunteer to assist with an additional CCI, of Moon or Mkat's choosing, given the backlog they mention. I've devoted much of my time over the years to helping improve the Project in various areas, and I'm happy to do it here.

3. Voluntary CCI Policy Copyediting. As a first step in assisting pro-actively in CCI clean-up, I undertook to and already began to copy-edit our CCI policy. For clarity. To be transparent and collaborative, I also opened up discussion at our CCI policy talkpage, explaining my effort. Moon responded positively there.

4. CCI Article Edits. As to assertions of "CCI disruption"—my editing of CCI articles reflects that the opposite is the case. I've made only 3 article edits, ever, following deletions of text in CCI article clean-up efforts. Each edit was an effort to respond to M's concerns. My last edit did just that, it would appear. I never made any edits at all that interfered with CCI cleanup; just the opposite.

5. Mkat and I generally agree. Interestingly, M and I may well agree on 99% of his deletions. In all of the sentences he (and others) deleted at the CCI, to this point we've only disagreed with regard to 2 sentences. In each instance, I was able to address his concern.

6. Efforts at talkpage discussion. After revising the 2 sentences mentioned above, to allay M's concerns, I did seek (without success) to engage M in talkpage discussion. To better understand his reasoning. And better communicate my views. My effort was not intended to be disruptive; just the opposite.

Similarly, I (and other editors) asked M this week, re 2 articles that he had blanked, which sentences concerned him. I asked so I could address his concerns, if possible. I said that at the time. In the one article mentioned above in which we had worked together, he had done exactly that. I thought it a normal request. I didn't ask him about the deleted sentences at the TK article, because I knew which they were (and had not contested his deletion). I also inquired as to whether we have a review process if editors have different views (because we do have a review process for articles deleted at AFD, but I couldn't find one here.)

7. ANI. I opened the ANI because: a) M said a "close paraphrase" existed where I did not believe that was the case (I'm not alone in this view); b) he was not communicating with me at the talkpage; and c) I felt that in the absence of communication from him it would be helpful to have more eyes on our interactions. A number who spoke to these issues at ANI raised the same points. Notably, that was all I requested. I didn't ask for any sanctions, as a disruptive battleground editor might. I asked for only one thing—simply more eyes on future interactions.

8. "Involved Editor" discussion. My understanding that M was an involved editor in the ARBPIA area was based entirely on M's own statement, on his userpage. If what he meant in that self-identification is not what I naturally understood it to be—which seems to be what he has said most recently—then I withdraw my comment, and apologize for any confusion. I wasn't making a personal assessment. I simply accepted at face value his own statement. I stated this at the ANI. I had no way of knowing that M's self-identification as an editor involved in the I-P conflict didn't mean what it said on its face. But again—while some editors (Prioryman, etc.) think I made a personal assessment of M in this regard, or even expressed a view as to his leanings, I did nothing of the sort (it may be that I've been confused with others). Given my mistake here, I'll avoid any future criticisms of M, for any reason (including those relating to wp;admin).

9. No canvassing. There was clearly not any "canvassing". I left a neutral note. At the talkpages of 3 editors. Editors who had divergent views. And who were involved in the CCI discussion to which the ANI related, and which M had referred to.

10. Others. As to the editor M says was "attacked", by me saying that he was hounding me? That editor was indeed found to be hounding me. And was interaction banned. While the CCI is appropriate, the editor was indeed banned. As to Spl—I don't recall that as having being part of this CCI, though we did have a strong difference of view on a substantive copyright matter.

12. Retribution and article blanking—withdrawn. I had the honest impression—based on my prior CCI experience of articles being stubbed to one sentence—that M was acting in retribution. I now accept what Moon has helpfully explained. Based on that, my initial impression was mistaken.

13. Close Paraphrase. There seems to be a wide divide between M and Hobit/Geo/Jamieson (for example), as to what constitutes a "close paraphrase". That's the only substantive difference that M and I have had since the CCI was launched, as far as I can recall. I share the view expressed by Hobit, etc. Perhaps someone can suggest a way to determine which view is correct—perhaps even (recognizing that they are busy at the moment) seeking input from one of the foundation lawyers.

As I mentioned to M and Moon a couple of days ago, I have limited access to computers until a week from now, and cannot add diffs from this computer at the moment, so please understand if you only hear from me intermittently (that's also the reason for the delay in this response). Also, if you could copy/paste this into the ANI, that would be appreciated Epeefleche (talk) 03:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

As I now have access to a computer and the time, I've added the diffs/refs referenced immediately above, and will add those for the below posts as well. I also appreciate that the blocker wrote that "Any admin may unblock when they are satisfied that Epeefleche will no longer disrupt the CCI.".--Epeefleche (talk) 16:35, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Clearing the unblock requests, declining at this time but encourage user to continue discussion about possible agreement to unblock and resubmit when an accord has been reached. WGFinley (talk) 22:57, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

The common sense thing to do here (and while I do think there's a good number of copyvios that Eppefleche was - probably out of ignorance - responsible for, see Targeted killing, I also think the indef block was excessive and unjustified) is to unblock him but request that he first participate fully and in good faith in the clean up, before he resumes normal editing. So...

• Unblock him
• Restrict his edits/posts to those related to the CCI issues which were raised.
• Once the CCI is successfully concluded, Epeefleche can resume regular editing.

That way it's a win-win. The copyvios get cleaned up faster and Epee gets to go back to normal editing. While copyvio is a very serious concern, 1) it's actually a Misplaced Pages wide problem and who knows how many people do it, a random selection of articles suggests that it's pretty common - and this is because we NEVER educate editors as to how not to commit copyvios (hell, "NO COPYVIOs" isn't even one of the main pillars!), and 2) these seem to have been made in good faith. I think at some point Eppefleche got a little defensive and rather than helping to resolve his old mistakes made things worse by his comments and posts - but still, I don't see how keeping the indef block in place would benefit either him/her or the project. Volunteer Marek  04:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate the apology. But 6 and 7 miss the point why you were blocked: for incessant talk page and ANI badgering, questioning, pestering and text-walling. No-one can work sanely on your CCI responding to that kind of rubbish. And you need to accept that in light of your record you really don't have the right to a "different view" on copyright questions; you're going to have to accept the blanking, deletion and removal of your content pretty much without debate. That's the only way it will work. In light of the pretty much unanimous consensus in support of your block at ANI, I think you're going to have to recognise this. --Mkativerata (talk) 09:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Tripped over this while patrolling CAT:UNB; I am very concerned about the phrase "inadvertent copyvio". You can't copy something accidentally. You just can't. Copying someone elses work is always intentional, and if Epeefleche believes that his copying of the text written by other people was "inadvertent" I have little faith that he could stop himself from doing it again. --Jayron32 04:37, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

You say that you "…have little faith that he could stop himself from doing it again." Actually I have considerable "faith". If an error was made sticking too close to wording found in sources—that can be corrected. While I understand your point concerning the word "inadvertent" perhaps one should not dwell on one single word to the exclusion of an entire message. Bus stop (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The copyvio is inadvertent when an editor has paraphrased it slightly, believing that they have done enough to prevent it being a copyvio. Epeefleche has generally reworded his contributions the problem was that up until CCI they were still too close to the original text. The editors undertaking the CCI have said that his newer contributions (since the CCI started) do not seem to have this problem. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 06:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Fine, but you are not requesting an unblock. He is. I would like him to explain why copying someone elses words, and changing a few of them, is still very very bad, and how that is different from "doing it right". I would need to see Epeefleche, and not you, explain why his purposeful, deliberate copying of text, and changing a few words, was wrong, and what sort of editing would be right. --Jayron32 21:47, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Posting on behalf of Epeefleche, with permission; copied from his email to me.

@Close Para issue, etc.. Mkat( himself) wrote: "Fact: everything I've seen Epeefleche create since the CCI started is copyvio-free."

I've been asked to share my understanding as to what constitutes a "close paraphrase" (CP). A CP is a copyviolation. One must, as described below, limit similarity in creative linguistic characteristics and structure to the point that they are non-substantial.

US caselaw suggests that there is not a copyviolation unless the copying is "substantial" both in quantity and in quality. Courts consider additional factors that include: a) the size of the entire work vs the copied text, b) the level of creativity in the copied text, c) the uniqueness and intricacy of the copied text, and d) how "central" the copied text is.

When CP has been asserted, I've sought to address concerns via good faith remediation. As Unscintillating indicates, I did this in the Berman article. I've also tried to engage the asserter in discussion on the article talkpage, if remediation did not satisfy him. As is suggested by our rules on CP. See the Berman talkpage.

As Moon said, "Sometimes there are good faith disagreements as to what constitutes a close paraphrase. It happens". As Hobit, Jamieson, and Geo's extensive comments at ANI indicate, this was the case with Berman edit #3. They all thought that the text deleted in that edit was not a CP. Feist and its progeny are relevant US caselaw.

But the key take-away is that even in that instance, I sought to remediate and address any felt concerns.

In the future, where a CP violation would otherwise exist, I'll apply more often Mkat's suggestion that "in-text attribution is a way around the problem". Excision is another solution. Another remedy is the use in accordance with our non-free content policy of a short quotation. Use--if available--of public domain or compatibly licensed sources avoids the issue, as does permission of the copyright holder. It can also be helpful to use multiple refs.

To avoid causing confusion, I'm not responding to any of his words in this edit, but just sharing them. :) --Moonriddengirl 23:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche, it concerns me a bit that your response here addresses US law more than it seems to address Misplaced Pages's standards. I'm sure you know, given your length of time here, that Misplaced Pages's standards towards non-free content are deliberately more narrow than US copyright law. You may be able to get away with closely paraphrasing a paragraph out of a 500 page book in a Misplaced Pages article legally, as it would qualify as fair use, but it does not mesh with community standards. Per copyright policy: "Misplaced Pages articles may also include quotations, images, or other media under the U.S. Copyright law "fair use" doctrine in accordance with our guidelines for non-free content. In Misplaced Pages, such "fair use" material should be identified as from an external source by an appropriate method (on the image description page, or history page, as appropriate; quotations should be denoted with quotation marks or block quotation in accordance with Misplaced Pages's manual of style). This leads to possible restrictions on the use, outside of Misplaced Pages, of such "fair use" content retrieved from Misplaced Pages: this "fair use" content does not fall under the CC-BY-SA or GFDL license as such, but under the "fair use" (or similar/different) regulations in the country where the media are retrieved." We are not simply concerned with US law here, or with such factors as may influence leniency of our use as our non-commercial status. I would suggest that you stop thinking, if you are, of "copyright law" and more of "copyright policy." What is a "copyright violation" on Misplaced Pages - a violation of our copyright policies which require that information taken from non-free sources be presented in your own language and structure, unless you are utilizing brief and clearly marked quotations - would not necessarily be an infringement of copyright under US law. It might not rise to substantial similarity to copy three sentences from a book, for instance, but it is certainly a violation of our policy, unless the material is handled as described at WP:NFC. --Moonriddengirl 00:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

What concerns me isn't just the incorrectness of Epeefleche's view (as if the law, as opposed to academic dishonesty, was our only concern) but the fact that he/she continues to have the argument. It is continuing to have the argument that will continue to disrupt the CCI. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm also quite concerned with the legalistic, rather than the practical, comments by Epeefleche. The proper way to read sources, to use those sources to compose novel text which capture the idea of the source text while being the wholly original text of the wikipedia writer, and the proper sourcing thereof is how to do it right. I was looking for Epeefleche to explain how to read source texts, how to internalize and understand the ideas thereof, how to compose ones own writing based on those ideas, and to cite the source text. Instead I get a bunch of legalistic hoo-haa? I am not encouraged. No, I am not. --Jayron32 05:19, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Jayron32—have you posed any question(s) to Epeefleche? If not, then why are you saying, "I was looking for Epeefleche to explain…"? Why don't you pose a question to Epeefleche, and in that way move the process forward to unblocking someone (Epeefleche) who has been both a productive and a constructive editor? Much of what he has said in his request to be unblocked above is of a conciliatory nature:

"I certainly didn't intend to disrupt the CCI, and don't intend to in the future. "

"I apologize to M for my mistakes, and hope he can understand how I made them honestly."

"I take my commitment here seriously, and I appreciate the gravity of copyright issues."

"The pace of remediation will accelerate with my assistance."

"My effort was not intended to be disruptive; just the opposite."

"I now accept what Moon has helpfully explained; based on that, my initial impression was mistaken."

If you are going to focus single-mindedly on fault-finding you are going to find fault. I also think he should be able to explain the origin of certain misunderstandings that occurred between him and other editors. That could be of a partially exculpatory nature—those may be mitigating factors in what transpired. This is a social project—or at least that is in my understanding of it. If you wish to ask a question of Epeefleche—that might move the dialogue forward. Bus stop (talk) 16:22, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche, who should be back at a computer with web access soon, sends the following:

@Mkat--I wasn't trying to continue an argument. I apologize if it seemed that way. Jayron asked me to reflect my understanding as to WP policy on close paraphrases. I re-read our policy and copyright FAQ, and what they linked to, and tried to comply. I would certainly not have responded had I understood you would not want me to.

Unless you tell me otherwise, I will assume you don't want me to explain my understanding of WP policy further, other than to to assure you that I understand that WP policy requires that we present information taken from non-free sources in our own structure, presentation, and phrasing (unless it is a conforming quotation).

Passed along verbatim at his request. --Moonriddengirl 00:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Some thoughts on the issue and a proposal

The problem here has not been in your clean up work; the problem has been in your insinuative and aggressive stance towards Mkativerata and some of the others who have addressed copyright issues with you. I don't remember ever having any particular problems with you myself, but I've been shocked by the way you have pursued the recent work on your CCI and am actually impressed that Mkativerata is persisting in the face of it. I have seen CCI cleaners run off of CCIs before by aggressive CCI subjects; it's a major source of disruption in that thankless and understaffed field. You certainly would be welcome (by me, anyway) to rewrite problematic content from scratch. But you have to stay out of the way of people evaluating it and not follow along repeatedly asking "What's wrong with this article?" And you certainly can't personalize it in the way that you have. There are literally thousands of articles to be evaluated; nobody will ever be able to finish if you do that. And there is a growing body of evidence that there are problems in many articles.

CCI will undoubtedly cost some content that is not a copyright problem. That's unfortunate. One of the main purposes of CCI is to try to avoid this, by giving each article evaluation, but it is not completely avoidable since we cannot access all of your sources and we are not able to presume that any of the content you wrote in this period is free of problems. There will very likely be points in the CCI when somebody will blank an article you wrote because it looks like it might have been copied and the sources can't be checked. In the ordinary course of "copyright problem" board work, we don't delete content because it looks like it might have been copied. In a CCI, we sometimes must. CCI remains preferable to the alternative, which is the presumptive deletion of everything per Misplaced Pages:Copyright violations.

The most constructive way you can contribute is not to say "Prove this one is a problem" but to simply replace challenged text with new, rewritten from scratch. It may not be fun, especially if you think that the original text was fine, but it is the most expeditious way to get through the tedious work of evaluating each of these articles and replacing any confirmed or likely problems. Nobody wants to have to do this, but unfortunately your work in this period has required it. While it may not be a copyright standard you would adopt for Misplaced Pages, it is the one the community has embraced. Given your skills, I'm pretty sure you could be a force for good in this if you would just put your focus to the cleanup instead of challenging the need for it. :) Barring that, I think your only other option would be to just stay out of the way and do your work elsewhere.

To that end, I have a proposal. I'm not going to unblock you myself, but will reproduce this next paragraph at ANI for community input. It's possible that my proposal will be shot down. :)

I would support your unblock if you would pledge to stop slowing progress (1) by challenging (openly or by insinuation) the existence of the problem and/or (2) by casting aspersions on the competence or motivations of the people doing the work and would instead agree to focus (if you work on the CCI at all) on rewriting content from scratch. Alternatively, I would support your unblock if you were topic banned from the CCI - which would mean staying away from any article tagged as a problem until after it has been resolved and from the people who tag them in any venue. Because I'm never comfortable with silencing people, I would be okay in that case with your having one acceptable person to whom you can email, agreed upon by the community at ANI. This will avoid you becoming a target of an actual vendetta if somebody should choose to take advantage of your vulnerable position. Email to one neutral, designated person rather than on-Wiki communication would eliminate any unintended disruption, as public aspersions on a CCI volunteer in any venue may have a "chilling" effect especially if others are influenced by your accusations. If the person chosen for you to contact agrees there is an issue, he or she may raise it in an appropriate venue.

Apologies for the length. --Moonriddengirl 12:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche is not at his computer and is unable to post to Misplaced Pages but has emailed me the following, with permission to post it on Misplaced Pages:

As I indicated to you, Elen, and M in our discussion on your talkpage even before the block, I'm happy to assist in the CCI in whatever manner (if any) others see fit.

I agree to whichever of your suggestions is deemed preferable. And whichever it is--I agree, as before, that the copyvios should be deleted (if not fixed). I think that your safeguard makes sense as well, for the reasons you state.

I'm going to reproduce this at ANI as well so that others can see his input. --Moonriddengirl 20:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I think Moonriddengirl's proposal is sensible and realistic. Jclemens (talk) 20:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

• I too think Moonriddengirl's proposal is sensible and realistic. A key nugget of that wisdom is encompassed in these two sentences of hers: The most constructive way you can contribute is not to say "Prove this one is a problem" but to simply replace challenged text with new, rewritten from scratch. It may not be fun, especially if you think that the original text was fine, but it is the most expeditious way to get through the tedious work of evaluating each of these articles and replacing any confirmed or likely problems. So long as Epeefleche conducts himself in a manner where his actions are part of the solution rather than amounting to objections over how others go about fixing past copyvio problems, there will be less wikidrama and faster improvement to the project. Greg L (talk) 19:07, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

An observation and some unanswered questions

I think it Epeefleche is to be unblocked he should not go any where near the articles that are being clean up, (s)he has been given months and months to do that and has been found wanting. I also think that there should be a moratorium on this editor creating or recreating any articles until there is a consensus at ANI that (s)he can do so. I suggest this because there is no evidence that Epeefleche has had an epiphany but rather the (s)he is mouthing platitudes under the duress of a block.

Epeefleche I asked you talk:Targeted killing "As you wrote and then created the article at 00:21 on 30 September 2010, and as it was so quaintly described 'shepherded it' for all these months, don't you remember which parts if any you copied? If you do then why don't you start by listing those pieces you copied from other sources?" You did not reply. So what is the answer?

On ANI you wrote "We are talking about Mkat's deletions yesterday -- years (and 50-80,000 edits?) after I wasn't familiar with our copyvio rules." I asked "Is Epeefleche stating the when (s)he wrote the Targeted killing article on 30 September 2010 (s)he was not familiar with the 'copyright rules'?" and if not familiar when did you become familiar? Well what is the answer to those questions? This is particularly pertinent given the statement given Greg L on on 8 Jan 2011 on Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations/Epeefleche where he in-part explains away your actions, because he explained that you have expertise on American copyright law (something that you did not acknowledge or deny at that time). -- PBS (talk) 14:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Having looked into it more I assume that Greg L reached his conclusion from a statement you made on 24 December 2010 on the same page, or have you made similar claims about your expertise else where on Misplaced Pages? -- PBS (talk) 15:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I tend to agree with PBS. It was clear to me after I unblocked him from his last indefinite block that he had simply said those things that I wanted to hear, and never actually understood that he had been canvassing. I regretted undoing the block.—Kww(talk) 15:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Since I tend to edit on a wordprocesser from various "copied" sources, often jumping between several files, I can see how despite one's trying to change things to avoid copy right violations, one could "inadvertently" make one (especially the way Win7 messes up Wordperfect, but den't me started). However, I also know that Epeeflech has been a very tenditious editor with a strong POV so I can understand where User:PBS and User:Kww are coming from. CarolMooreDC 19:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Just for context here, the scenario you describe certainly can happen, but this is not always what we are seeing with Epeefleche. Since I can't reproduce the whole thing here per our policies, this was the first paragraph in the source used for the article Benny Bass (now rev deleted):

Regarding Benny Bass, Jack Dempsey was quoted as saying: "He is the greatest fighter of his weight and inches I have ever set my eyes upon." At a diminutive 5' 2", Benny possessed a bull neck and extraordinary musculature around his shoulders & biceps. He was a powerful force & rarely fought at over 130 pounds. Bass was one of the hardest punchers ever in the featherweight & jr. lightweight divisions. Contemporary Ring Magazine writer, Francis Albertani, described Benny as "A deadly puncher, cool as the proverbial pebble under fire & a masterful boxer."

This was the first paragraph Epeefleche placed in the article. For clarity, I'm bolding precise duplication.

Regarding Benny Bass, Jack Dempsey was quoted as saying: "He is the greatest fighter of his weight and inches I have ever set my eyes upon." At a diminutive 5' 2", Benny possessed a bull neck and extraordinary musculature around his shoulders & biceps. He was a powerful force & rarely fought at over 130 pounds. Bass was one of the hardest punchers ever in the featherweight and junior lightweight divisions. Contemporary Ring Magazine writer, Francis Albertani, described Benny as "A deadly puncher, cool as the proverbial pebble under fire and a masterful boxer."

The third to the last paragraph in the source says:

Benny was no dummy, however, and even though he lacked much formal scholastic training he had a sharp mind, as evinced by his fluency in five languages. Applying himself with the same resolve he had displayed in the ring, Benny passed a Civil Service exam and worked a desk job for the Philadelphia traffic courts for many years.

This the last paragraph Epeefleche placed in that section:

Benny was no dummy, however, and even though he lacked much formal scholastic training he had a sharp mind, as evinced by his fluency in five languages. Applying himself with the same resolve he had displayed in the ring, Benny passed a Civil Service exam and worked a desk job for the Philadelphia traffic courts for many years.

Some of the content between was original, I believe most of it was not. This remained in publication for years before it was detected, I'm afraid.

While this is among the more extreme set of examples, it is not alone. Epeefleche may have improved his practices in recent years (I'm told he has and don't doubt it), but his violations of copyright policy in articles like these are pretty blatant. --Moonriddengirl 12:01, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Moon. I've not contested that some of my earliest entries (which include the one you cite above, from over 4.5 years ago) were not appropriate. And I've agreed that any such copyvios should be deleted. I appreciate your comment as to not doubting that I have improved my practices in recent years.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Epeefleche. I know you haven't contested that. I don't mean to beat you up about it or imply any ongoing issues. I was just clarifying for CarolMoore. :) --Moonriddengirl 11:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm actually pretty concerned by Epeefleche's response, which continues on with a previous theme that the copyright problems are from years ago. While it's true that the copying and pasting was especially obvious and egregious in the early years of Epeefleche's career, the CCI opened about a year ago because of copyright and plagiarism concerns with recent edits, where the violations were slightly more subtle but clear nonetheless. For example, Epeefleche's edits to Targeted killing, made September 2010, have recently been deleted due to copyright concerns. But only 2 weeks ago, Epeefleche denied that there were any significant problems with copyright in that very article."I don't see the copyvio that is claimed as warranted deletion of this article". This is the crux of the matter. Does Epeefleche accept that there were significant problems of copyright and plagiarism up to December 2010 that need to be cleaned up? --Slp1 (talk) 13:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Slp1—I think Epeefleche merely defends the article (Targeted killing) against deletion in the link that you provide above. My personal opinion is that the copyright problems at Targeted killing are relatively minor. There are limited acceptable ways of communicating information and it is a matter of judgement how far a restatement of the material found at sources should differ while still maintaining the original thrust of that material. Epeefleche has clearly expressed a willingness to try to clear up any remaining copyright problems. Bus stop (talk) 15:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but "defending" the article is exactly the problem, as it indicates that Epeefleche has not accepted that there is an issue to fix. Why would it be a good idea for him to "clear up" copyright and plagiarism violations that he (and you apparently) do not appear to accept exist. Here is some of the text that Mkativerata removed from the Targeted killing edits from September 2010. I've bolded the text that comes directly from Haaretz:

The opinion, deciding a case brought by two human rights groups, the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel and the Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment, set forth what is allowed and what is prohibited, and the directives it gave assured future judicial oversight of all cases in which a targeted killing exceeds the limits of these rules. If it should turn out that a targeted killing was illegal, it might lead to a trial and the paying of compensation to the innocent civilians who were hurt by it. Under the ruling, those involved in causing terror are civilians who have lost the protection granted to civilians "for the period of time during which they take direct part in hostile acts." The question of whether they continue to constitute a threat must be scrutinized carefully before a targeted-killing order is issued. Such an order must not be issued as an act of revenge, punishment, or deterrence, but only in prevention. The information that a civilian became a participant in hostile acts must be sufficiently well-founded. The threat must be "strong and persuasive", and the person must be party to "ongoing action that does not limit itself to concrete sporadic or one-time action." Also, targeted killing must not be engaged in when an arrest may be made without real danger to the lives of soldiers; and targeted killing should be avoided if it will lead to disproportionate collateral harm to innocent civilians.

As you can see, Bus Stop, whole sentences have been copied verbatim. There is virtually no creativity and even the (acceptable) quotes are framed identically to the original source. It boggles my mind to think that you think that this is acceptable, "relatively minor" (as you put it), and that this is a situation where there was no other way to express the content. I really don't think you are doing yourself, or Epeefleche any favours here by arguing that this is a judgement call. Multiple administrators with expertise and experience in this area have determined that there is a problem.Slp1 (talk) 02:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Slp1—I actually didn't say that copyright problems do not exist. More importantly Epeefleche did not say that copyright problems do not exist. As I wrote above, Epeefleche defended the article against deletion.

You say "But only 2 weeks ago, Epeefleche denied that there were any significant problems with copyright in that very article."I don't see the copyvio that is claimed as warranted deletion of this article".

I don't think you are correct in your above interpretation of what Epeefleche has written. I don't read Epeefleche denying in the above quote that there are "any significant problems with copyright in that very article". He is merely arguing that copyright problems do not warrant the deletion of the "Targeted killing" article. Bus stop (talk) 03:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop, you need to stop this obfuscation. As I said, it doesn't do you (or Epeefleche) any favours, because despite what you and Epeefleche have claimed, the article Targeted killing and Epeefleche's edits did indeed warrant deletion. Or at least User:Moonriddengirl, who has lots of experience and expertise in this area, thought so.. Do you want to contest Moonriddengirl's actions? If so, let me know, and I will help you figure out where and how you can contest this. --Slp1 (talk) 03:27, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Slp1—please don't jump to conclusions and claim that I am obfuscating when I don't believe that I am. Bus stop (talk) 04:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop I wrote out a reply here but as it is longer than I expected this is deeply intended I am moving it down. But it will have the same time stamp as this edit -- PBS (talk) 08:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Looking at discussion above and the web pages, I see it was far more than inadvertent. I am sure people POV pushing to get as much anti-Muslim (or perhaps pro-states that are anti-Muslim) material into Misplaced Pages find it easier to cut and paste from the hundreds (or thousands) of anti-Muslim websites out there chock full of such articles. Targeted killing being one example; others probably just not discovered in various Israel-Palestine related article where I've run into Epeefleche before. Under WP:ARBPIA Epeefleche could be banned from editing in any articles regarding Israel-Palestine-Muslims-Jews if further evidence of his doing copyvio was found in any relevant articles. If he was banned, I'm sure he'd find it easier to control himself on sports articles. I hope that whoever is reviewing his case is considering this as an option. As an advocate I am interested in seeing advocates learn to be "Misplaced Pages first" editors who avoid even minor POV/WP:RS issues. And this goes way beyond that. CarolMooreDC 18:56, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

CarolMooreDC—I think you are unnecessarily politicizing this discussion. The relevant questions involve the willingness of the editor concerned to work with even those editors who may hold contrasting political points of view. I think he has stated that unquestioningly. He has stated not only apologies to those that have deemed his edits to be copyright violations but he has stated a commitment to refrain from a repeat of the same and to help with the clearing up of remaining copyright violations. Why is he being sidelined from participation in remediation that he has offered to provide at for instance the Targeted killing article? Bus stop (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an admin or participant in that page and can't answer that. I'm just making a general statement that copyvio could or seems to be be a way of POV pushing that I was not familiar with but will keep my eye on for in the future. (And in some articles that the two of us happened to have edited in the past.) CarolMooreDC 05:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop the problem is this Epeefleche wrote "I don't see the copyvio that is claimed as warranted deletion of this article" (and much else like that). If (s)he were not obfuscating, and publicly recognising that (s)he was still breaking copyright policy as late as September last year, (s)he would not have put the word "claimed" in there, because if one accepts the evidence then the sentence would read "I don't see the copyvio(s) as warranting deletion of this all of the article".

Even in his/her latest posting in this thread, while there is an acknowledgement of "some of my earliest entries ... ... were not appropriate", there is still equivocation (as it may be that some edits last month were still "not appropriate"). Epeefleche has yet to answer the simple questions:

1. When did you become familiar with the Misplaced Pages rules (or US law) on copyright violation?
2. When was the last time, that you contributed text to this project that broke Misplaced Pages copyright policy/(and US law)?

We know that as recently as 30 September 2010 (s)he when (s)he created the article targeted killing (s)he was was still breaking Misplaced Pages copyright policy in articles on this site, and before we can go forward, we need to know when it stopped. (S)he is not helping other editors or herself/himself by fudging an answer to these questions. If Epeefleche has had an epiphany, then (s)he should be willing to stop fudging and give clear precise answers. -- PBS (talk) 08:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

You don't think you are being a little too demanding? Must he answer those questions? Hasn't Epeeflech copiously expressed the willingness to move forward violation-free? Haven't his remarks all been conciliatory? Hasn't he offered to help with the remediation of any copyright violations which he has made? Were there no promises to clean up past copyright violations then I could understand your taking a different tack in the form of your questions posed. But given the already-provided assurances that past copyright violations will be cleared up, I think your questions seem out of place. I don't think we should be grilling someone with questions as those you pose above. Bus stop (talk) 11:24, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I’ve carefully reviewed this thread and ancillary issues pertaining to it. I have come to the following conclusions.

Epeefleche’s old copyviolations should be and are in fact being deleted. He apologized for his lapses. He reiterated that he does not intend to be disruptive. The community should give him the benefit of the doubt and Assume Good Faith. AGF is not merely an empty slogan and it should be applied here where the user has expressed genuine contrition for his actions.

Others on this thread have correctly pointed out that his recent text entries do not have those problems.

He has been blocked for over two weeks now and under the totality of circumstances an unblock now seems to be the appropriate way to conclude this matter. I am certain that the events that gave rise to this unfortunate affair will not be repeated.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:58, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Just one more observation. An editor's quality can be measured in part by peer recognition. Epeefleche has done some exceptional work on Misplaced Pages and the barnstars he's collected for various accomplishments from his fellow editors stand as testament to the quality of his contributions to Misplaced Pages. I think that should count for something and should act as a mitigating factor.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:59, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

@Bus stop. If I am being a little too demanding then from what Epeefleche has written about this issue, can you answer after what date did Epeefleche stop committing copyright violations?

only goes up until the time it was initially run (7/Jan/11). Can you tell from anything that Epeefleche has written on the talk pages, that there are no copyright violations in Epeefleche's contributions for the rest of this year? The thing is that most people will assume good faith and if (s)he says there are no copyright violations this year, then it will be accepted. But without such a statement how do we know there are not more of the same? After all, clear violations were present in material as late as 30 September 2010, so how do we know, without a statement from Epeefleche or a further systematic sweep, that text added this year is clean? -- PBS (talk) 08:41, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Sergy Rikhter

On 23 November 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Sergy Rikhter, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Israeli sport shooter Sergy Rikhter was denied a 2011 ISSF World Cup silver medal because he was late? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Sergy Rikhter.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Thanks from me and the wiki Victuallers (talk) 08:04, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

File:MargieGoldsteinEngle.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:MargieGoldsteinEngle.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. MGA73 (talk) 22:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Jowan Qupty

On 27 November 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Jowan Qupty, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Arab-Israeli Olympic hopeful Jowan Qupty and Jewish-Israeli Olympian Nimrod Shapira Bar-Or were high school roommates and best friends? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Orlady (talk) 06:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC) 10:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Nimrod Shapira Bar-Or

On 27 November 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Nimrod Shapira Bar-Or, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Arab-Israeli Olympic hopeful Jowan Qupty and Jewish-Israeli Olympian Nimrod Shapira Bar-Or were high school roommates and best friends? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Orlady (talk) 06:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC) 10:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)