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:As for the diaspora, they are citizens of whichever country they live in. They contribute to the ethnic diversity of ''that'' country, not of India. By that standard, the demographics page of the ] should have pictures of Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians, and Americans ... Maltese, Falklanders, and Gibraltar-ians. ]] 05:27, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
:As for the diaspora, they are citizens of whichever country they live in. They contribute to the ethnic diversity of ''that'' country, not of India. By that standard, the demographics page of the ] should have pictures of Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians, and Americans ... Maltese, Falklanders, and Gibraltar-ians. ]] 05:27, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
:I think that if anyone thinks the photos posted for debate so far are not enough, they should find and post others--while at the same time trying to keep things relatively manageable and not overwhelming. Obviously, India is extremely diverse, ethnically, and it is clearly impossible to show decent quality photos of ''all'' Indians (unless perhaps Indian editors here go out and start taking good photos of people and uploading them to the Commons! hint hint). Also, while the differencies between Indian ethnicities may be obvious to Indians, for many in the rest of the world they are not. Myself as an example, being largely ignorant of this topic, I can see some obvious differencies in the various photos above in terms of skin color and dress, pretty much everyone looks like an "Indian" of one kind or another. Sure I can see differences between southern and northern Indians, and perhaps especially eastern Indians (if that is the right term for Assam and neighboring states), but still, to me they all look Indian. Even in America, which is nowhere near as diverse as India, people look and dress differently in many ways, but we are all Americans. Are Indians not all Indian? From some of the comments here, I get the sense that not all Indians consider other Indians truly Indian. ] (]) 09:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
:I think that if anyone thinks the photos posted for debate so far are not enough, they should find and post others--while at the same time trying to keep things relatively manageable and not overwhelming. Obviously, India is extremely diverse, ethnically, and it is clearly impossible to show decent quality photos of ''all'' Indians (unless perhaps Indian editors here go out and start taking good photos of people and uploading them to the Commons! hint hint). Also, while the differencies between Indian ethnicities may be obvious to Indians, for many in the rest of the world they are not. Myself as an example, being largely ignorant of this topic, I can see some obvious differencies in the various photos above in terms of skin color and dress, pretty much everyone looks like an "Indian" of one kind or another. Sure I can see differences between southern and northern Indians, and perhaps especially eastern Indians (if that is the right term for Assam and neighboring states), but still, to me they all look Indian. Even in America, which is nowhere near as diverse as India, people look and dress differently in many ways, but we are all Americans. Are Indians not all Indian? From some of the comments here, I get the sense that not all Indians consider other Indians truly Indian. ] (]) 09:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul, Saravask has made some excellent points about photographic quality above and I think we should, as simply as possible, decide on a reasonable set of images that are visually appealing and of good quality. Once we have these images in place, replacing images with others on a case by case basis will be a straightforward process. I think fowler has gone out of his way to choose appealing images and that we are at a good starting point. If we wait for more editors to add images, and if the set of images becomes too large, the process will get unnecessarily complicated and will bog down quickly. I'm sure that there are many better images out there (and know from experience that you have an excellent 'image' eye) but let's just move forward with what we have and deal with replacements once this process is completed. --] <small>(])</small> 10:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Q4: Why aren't there sections on science and technology, education, media, tourism etc?
A4: New sections require talk-page consensus. In archived discussions, it was decided to keep them out. Consider expanding their respective daughter articles, such as History of India, instead. See WP:WPC.
Q5: Why was my image or external link removed?
A5: To add or remove images and links, start a thread on this page first. See WP:FP?, WP:IMAGE, and WP:EL.
Q6: The map is wrong!
A6: The map shows the official (de jure) borders in undisputed territory and the de facto borders and all related claims where there's a dispute; it cannot exclusively present the official views of India, Pakistan, or China. See WP:NPOV.
Q7: India is a superpower!
A7: Consult the archives of this talk page for discussions of India's status as a superpower before adding any content that makes the suggestion. See WP:DUE.
Q8: Delhi is a state!
A8: To create an Indian state, the Parliament of India must pass a law to that effect—see Articles 2 through 4 of the Constitution of India, full text here. The Sixty-ninth Amendment, which was enacted in 1991, added Article 239AA to the constitution. It proclaimed the National Capital Territory of Delhi, gave it a legislative assembly, and accorded it special powers that most union territories lack. But Delhi was not made a state. Several crucial powers were retained by the central government, such as responsibility for law and order. Delhi also does not have a governor; instead, a lieutenant governor presides. Unlike Himachal Pradesh, which gained statehood in 1970, and Goa, which gained it in 1987, Delhi continues to be listed as a union territory by the First Schedule.
Q9: Add Hindi as the national language/hockey as the national sport!
A9: Hindi is the official language, not national language. There is no national language, but there are constitutionally recognized languages, commonly known as Schedule 8 languages. English also serves as a subsidiary official language until the universal use of Hindi is approved by the states and parliament.
Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar: India has announced that it has succeeded to produce the cheapest tablet PC in the world that students will buy at price of 35 dollars to expand digital acces to the internet in the Asian giant. The government says that the computer Aakash, which means the sky, at first be available in a pilot series of 100,000 pieces, so that in the coming months, this figure increased to millions. 78.2.115.53 (talk) 01:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Culture Image Rotation Removed With No Discussion?
Can someone please tell me where is the discussion and consensus that was held to eliminate the Culture Image Rotation?
The culture image rotation allowed for a variety of images from dance, art, cuisine, architecture, and society to be shown from North, South, West and Eastern India.
The images selected were agreed upon by more than 25 different users. How can someone just remove it with no discussion? Nikkul (talk) 03:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul -- you are not the final decision maker on images, please stop reverting to your preferred ones. Your behavior across multiple articles is very disruptive as you've been told by many many editors before. —SpacemanSpiff04:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I never said I was the final decision maker. Please show me where the discussion and consensus was to stop the Culture Image Rotation.Nikkul (talk) 06:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
There is no appetite, Nikkul, for your glossy, anonymous, vacuous, and airbrushed images on this page. The India article is not a tourist brochure. Fowler&fowler«Talk»06:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
But where is the discussion to remove the Culture Image Rotation? The culture image rotation was agreed upon by almost 25 users. Surely there must have been a discussion and consensus before such a dramatic change was made. Nikkul (talk) 19:49, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
A discussion about demographics images was already held and the consensus was to have a demographic map in the demographics section since it is impossible to show the faces of all types of Indians in one image. Nikkul (talk) 19:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
+1 to Fowler&Fowler's suggestion. We need a representative set of images. India is not uniformly picturesque as the article images seem to suggest. AshLin (talk) 06:56, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
There is no one image that shows the different types of people of India. There was a long discussion about this before and the consensus was that it's impossible to show India's different types of people in one image (North India, South India, West Indian, Eastern Indian, tribals, lower caste, upper caste, Hindu, Muslim, CHristian, Sikh, Jewish, rich, poor)... all these aspects of India can not be shown in one image. It's better to just have a map. Nikkul (talk) 02:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler's images
Here are some images of people that I found in the WikiCommons category "People from India." The captions were added quickly, whatever came to me. They are not meant to suggest final captions, pass or fail. Will add more images. These are not pictures of the "underbelly," just pictures of ordinary Indians matter-of-factly (even proudly) doing the things they do. The underbelly part is trickier, and I'm not sure I found anything in the Commons collection that would pass muster.
A. People from Uttarakhand
1.Garhwal, beautiful picture, showing children in woollen handmedowns with their grandmother. What pride and dignity.
2. A woman in Uttarakhand sharpening her harvesting sickles, holding the whetting metal between her toes, showing effortless skill, the vacuum flask, which might be the photographer's, a reminder of the timelessness of her technology.
3. A Yoga instructor in Rishikesh sitting on a bench with a bag of groceries. Love his hands.
4.Kumaon, a boatman on the Nainital Lake, with a superbly bronzed face, and faraway look.
B. People from Bihar
1. The stoicism of the afflicted in the Kosi flood of 2008.
2. A little wearily, a man watches the on-going construction of his house in Chandesh, Bihar.
3. Unselfconsciously showing what it takes to make the ubiquitous fuel of rural India.
4. How many hands does it take to pull off a man's first hair cut.
1. The mammals of New Digha, great and small, waiting for tea and snacks.
2. A day at the races.
3. The beachcombers of Udaipur Sea Beach, West Bengal
4. Ploughing on the other hand is work.
I'm tired now and have to stop. Sorry, many states have been left out. If you'd like to add pictures, please go to the WikiCommons "Category:People of India by state" and pick your state and pictures. Fowler&fowler«Talk»21:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
PS I've now gone through all the subfolders in WikiCommons collection "Category:People from India," although I didn't always look at the sub-sub-... folders. I've tried to keep in mind Saravask's detailed and excellent remarks and admonitions (thank you for them) and Pfly's superb comments. Here is a final four, Group I, from India:
This work contains material which may portray one or more identifiable persons alive or deceased recently. The use of images of living or recently deceased individuals is, in some jurisdictions, restricted by laws pertaining to personality rights, independent from their copyright status. Before using this content, please ensure that you have the right to use it under the laws which apply in the circumstances of your intended use. You are solely responsible for ensuring that you do not infringe someone else's personality rights. See our general disclaimer.
Taking a picture of a person in a public space: Does not require consent
Publishing pictures of a person in a public space: Does not require consent (with exceptions)
Commercial use of a published picture of a person in a public space: Requires consent (as per above)
In general you are free to take pictures for private use of other people in public areas under the Constitution of India (CoI) article 19, however publishing a photo in a manner that might be "embarrassing, mentally traumatic" or causing "a sense of insecurity about activities" is illegal under the CoI article 21. (See: "Protection of celebrity rights - The Problems and the Solutions" (PDF). Journal of Intellectual Property Rights. 11: 415–423. 2006-11. Retrieved 2011-09-01. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help))
Most of these pictures have been taken in public places. Please remember that I have not (with two exceptions, both public scenes) added my own pictures, but simply picked ones that are already in the WikiCommons collection. Interestingly, a recent Misplaced Pages Featured Picture of the DayFile:Kutia kondh woman 3.jpg, labeled F1 below, was indeed taken in a private setting, and even carries the "personality rights" template. If "personality rights" worries don't prevent such a picture from being seen by millions, they shouldn't prevent my chosen pictures from being added to the India page.
Finally, as someone who a few years ago was persistently promoting the image File:Indiadem.jpg on this page, you should know better than to profess concern about "privacy rights." This picture was not only not public, but, its WikiCommons and Flikr pages both came with this vignette: "The same lady as in the earlier post. I asked if she could lift her veil. She answered that her father-in-law forbade it. Her friends teased her calling her 'Aishwarya Rai' ;) and I joined in the fun too. She obliged and the smiles were all around." If you don't think she was embarrassed, let alone traumatized, why this belated worry about others that show unrepentant calm or glee on their faces and have no fathers-in-law in sight? Fowler&fowler«Talk»02:34, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul's remarks
These images do not show all aspects of India's demographics! There is no one image that can show all different type of people in India. That is exactly why it was decided by a LARGE number of people to just keep a map/infographic.Nikkul (talk) 01:50, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Here are the problems I have with these images:
None of these pictures show anything relating to India's economy ... women standing in line? man on a boat? woman staring at ground? married couple?
One image can not represent all Indians. ...North Indian, South Indian, Eastern Indian, West Indian, Hindu, Muslim, Upper Cast, Lower Caste, Tribals, ....how can you show all of these things in one image?
Bad Quality- The subjects seem like they are not ready for the picture...guy staring at the ground, girls looking away...I don't see how these are good quality pics
There is already an img in Economy section with man and 2 oxen...this shows the reality of India far better than these ridiculous images above
Looking at it some more, yea, the sky is not great. At first I thought it had a nice misty dawn thing going, but looking more closely I mainly see the JPG artifacts. Pfly (talk) 05:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
RegentsPark's comments and uploads
I uploaded a couple of school pictures from Orissa. Feel free to use them.
Added another one where the kids are not looking directly at the camera. Admittedly, I'm no photographer (and have some equally bad ones from village schools in Tanzania to prove it!) but I like the smiling one better. The kids were actually laughing at something the teacher said and the camera just happened to be in the front. Also, the school room shows its decrepit condition more in the new image. . --regentspark (comment) 19:13, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
From a purely photographic aesthetic point of view, I like F3 and H4 the best. ...though if the point is to show people, perhaps H4 is less than ideal, as you can't see the man's face. Pfly (talk) 03:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks everyone, especially Saravask, for your comments. The captions I wrote, in a hurry, in part to draw in the reader, may have actually been a distraction, for they were often inaccurate, but more importantly they didn't always highlight what was important in the image. But, anyway, what's done is done.
The images: All in all, I guess I'm more accepting of image quality inadequacies if the picture conveys something new or special. That, personally for me, was true for pretty much all the pictures I picked. (The issue of whether a picture has relevance for an article section is different of course, and, it's true, I didn't pay much attention to that, except at the very end.) Here are some examples of poor image, but great affect.
The Nainital boatman (A4). He might be blending in with his background or his jacket, but for me the picture is as much about his appearance. The three layers of clothing, the big wrist watch, the boots with nice tread, the folding umbrella. He is no cowering Nainital boatman of a generation ago, when people in the Kumaon were much poorer.
The Kosi flood (B1) too has obvious image issues (pretty bad really), but for me all that is outweighed by the stoic look on the faces, even on that of the children, in the face of the great anxiety they must have been experiencing.
The three lines in girls school (C1): Again, the sky is bleached, but for me the clincher was the three runner rugs (improvised?), that the girls are standing on barefooted. That Zen-like visual order in India was something new for me.
Man driving bullock cart (D4): True its over-cropped, (and I didn't mean "killer" in the sense of dangerous, only in the sense of "killer eyesight" or "killer recipe"), but what is visible of the bulls, the horns and heads, is superbly healthy and vital, a contrast to the tired, overworked animals you see on the Indian street.
And, so it goes ... I tend to agree with Saravask and Pfly that we should set the image quality bar high, but perhaps we can make some exceptions here and there if the image content is exceptional. Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment: I don't see how any of these images are encyclopedic? Misplaced Pages is not a tourist brochure. Misplaced Pages is not an art/photography exhibit. Images need to relate to the content they describe. None of these images relate to India's economy. Nikkul (talk) 01:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment from Qwyrxian
Fowler&Fowler asked me on my talk page to comment here. This is not an article I've edited before, but taking a fast-paced trip through the page to look at the images, I agree with the idea that it looks most lifeless. Currently in the article, only 5 of the articles contain people; 2 include them only as tiny barely discernible figures (the Parliament and cricket pictures), 2 of the others are politicians (Gandhi and the G8 shot), and only one is of a "normal" person (the farming picture). For a country with such diversity of people and life, it seems like more pictures of real Indians living their lives might be good. Obviously, the concern is where to put them, as the article already has quite a few pictures. Generally, I'm not a fan of galleries, but in some special cases I can live with them. I could handle a well-selected gallery (maybe 4-5 pictures--that is, one line only) at the bottom of the Demographics section. Of course, this won't represent everyone...but I don't think 100 pictures could come close to capturing a small part of Indian's socio-cultural diversity. Looking at Fowler's options so far, I like (and this is half esthetic and half the idea of trying to capture shots of people really "living"), I like A2, B3, C3, D3, E1, F4, G2, G3, H4, I2, and I5. One thing that should be done is to make sure that we don't select a full set of pictures that give the impression that India is entirely rural/farming; it would be good to add some more urban/"modern" pictures as well. I hope this helps. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:25, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment from Ravichandar84
Most of the photos, I observe, are of men and women busy in their day-to-day life activities. I feel that it would have been better if we had more pictures of people involved in traditional arts like a Keralite in a Kathakali performance, etc.
Response by Nikkul: I agree. These pics above don't show anything economic or demographic (women standing in line?, man staring at the ground?)...I do not like any of them. Nikkul (talk) 01:51, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Response from Fowler&fowler: Ravichander84, the way I see it, the Children from Bomdila image is too low-res. Saravask has asked us to pick images that are at least 1K x 1K pixels. The Sikh farmer image has high enough resolution, but it's sky is bleached out. So, it would make the cut either in image quality. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:36, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Redtigerxyz's query: Comments requested
Is the proposal to have a collage or changing random pictures or 1/2 permanent pictures? Depending upon the answer of this fundamental query, I reserve my comments. --Redtigerxyz18:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I don't know what precisely Saravask has in mind, but since we had rotating pictures earlier, its probably best to make your comments with that end in mind. If nothing else, it will help in making a short list. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk»21:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Oh no!: G4 - Reason: Non-Indians have a notion (or atleast had in past) that Indians use elephants for daily trnsportation. Like commuting from home to work-place. They leave their homes in Thane, feed their elephants with bananas & start on the ride to their office at CST. I think this image will just strengthen their doubt.
Ok ok types: Rest all.
Suggestions-
For repesenting people of India in one snap, one can try & catch hold of a pic showing kids in traditional dresses ready for some fancy competition. (Dont ask me how to get it. You people know more than me.)
A snapshot from old Mile Sur Mera Tumhara video could also show a lots of variety in costumes.
A pic representing technologically advanced Indian society should be added. Refrain adding a stallite launch. That doesnt represent general masses.
There's a good point about current images. I was looking at the map in Demographics and realised that the densely populated area I was staring at was Bangladesh, so perhaps that's not the best image for this page. There's little I can add to Saravask's immense breakdown, and I agree with his dislike of posed photos. A pose loses the story the photo may otherwise have had. The photos Saravask chose are all good, although I'm quite partial to A4, B3, and C4 despite their being on Saravask's naughty list (and despite C4 looking into camera, it looks caught in the moment rather than posed), which I feel are all very interesting shots in their own ways. A rotation in demographics could be a quite good idea. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:32, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Bill william compton's comments
Few images I'd like to see in Economy section are D4, F4, H4, I6, I8. D4, F4 and H4 are directly or indirectly related to agriculture—to depict that India is an 'agriculture major economy', and this sector is still experiencing stagnation with a low average annual growth.
Response to Bill william compton: The Apatani image was indeed a fixed (i.e. non-rotating) image on the India page for some two or three years. It was ultimately removed by an opposition led primarily by user:Nikkul who was dead set against it. The other images don't pass Saravask's image quality recommendations: they are not high-res enough. Also, I'm concerned that they are pictures of people dressed in "tribal" costumes for the benefit of tourists. It gives the wrong impression that people in the north east commonly wear these clothes. The last picture doesn't really show people, except in an unrecognizable conglomeration. It would be more appropriate for culture if it didn't have the image quality issues. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»18:22, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
AshLin's comments
Due to limited access/broken connectivity, I'll just say I agree that we need more people oriented images and not just shiny ad-like images. India is NOT shining everywhere. When I get my connectivity back, I would be able to participate more fully in specifics. AshLin (talk) 17:07, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Image Changes
Can we please discuss image changes before making them on the main page? I have noticed a lot of image edits without discussion from User:Saravask and others made without any sort of discussion whatsoever. I know we have all made our mistakes, but from now on can we please try to discuss image changes before making them on the main page? Nikkul (talk) 20:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Hmmm, Nikkul. I find that a couple of days ago, you had yourself changed an image of Kedar Range with one of generic Himalayas with an edit summary "added better pic showing actual mountains" which was reverted by Fowler&Fowler. FYI the image change was suggested by me in this thread to replace the very one you added once again. In this I see shades of WP:OWN since this image was uploaded by you from Flickr. The Kedar range is a better image of a mountain than India_north.jpg, aside from a more relevant context, so your caption is also misleading. Anyway, I assume you have learnt better. I support your reminder to discuss things before making changes to an FA, however well-intentioned. AshLin (talk) 06:53, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment: I reverted the image to the ORIGINAL one that was there before someone unilaterally changed it to the current image. Yes that image was brought to Misplaced Pages by me (like hundreds of others I have brought), but the reason I changed it was because I was reverting to the original image. The original image was discussed long time back and agreed upon by many editors. Someone changed that image to their own without discussing. That image is not photographed by me, and I don't care who brings it to Misplaced Pages. All I care about is that images that are added to this page look decent and are added with consensus. Nikkul (talk) 01:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
The current image was not unilaterally placed but after discussion and consensus. Kindly read the link I provided. The current image which replaced by your earlier choice has better encyclopaedic value and was after a consensus on this talk page. AshLin (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Can you please do one proposal at a time...what's the rush? doing demographics, economy, politics, etc at the same time just confuses everyone...why don't you wait on the demographics and govt proposals until after the economy propsal has been decided upon. Nikkul (talk) 01:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Proposal 1- shows part of bldg Proposal 2- shows majority of bldg
Proposal 1 shows only a section of the bldg, a majority of which is a blank wall. Why not show the whole building?. I have proposed a picture, Proposal 2, (where you can actually see the majority of the bldg) which I feel is much better. Please comment. P.S.- both pics were taken by the same photographer on the same day, so quality is the same. Nikkul (talk) 01:44, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
BSE image
The current image has too many distracting elements: trees, buildings. I like the old one or the one in BSE article which shows the building more, with much distractions.Redtigerxyz06:45, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't realize that the demographics map has been changed. I don't remember the old map very well, but it was clearly about population density, and had a scale bar (with units) etc that told you what a shade of color meant. The new map seems to be a railway connectivity map, which is a little confusing. But, mainly there is no color scale bar. We come away knowing that the Gangetic plain is more populated, but that is about all. If there were issues with the old map, I'm sure it could be improved. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Israel, S. (editor); Sinclair, T. (editor) (26 January 2001), Indian Wildlife, Insight Guides (2nd ed.), Geocenter International, ISBN978-9812345554{{citation}}: |first= has generic name (help)
Economy Image Change to Cow Milking- NO! This looks ridiculous! At least the paddy image shows shows agriculture.
Dabbawallah staring at the Ground- This also looks terrible. Dabbawallas contribute a tiny amt to the Indian economy- WP:Relevant
Children sitting on the ground- No. This is not encyclopedic
Taj Mahal image blocked by people- The original image is a FEATURED Image! It is MUCH better than your proposal.
Old Men playing Unknown Game- Cricket is the biggest craze in India. There is NO reason not to keep the current cricket image. Nikkul (talk) 05:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Although I had initially opposed the idea of rotation as suggested by Saravask 3 and 1/2 years ago, I am now more sympathetic to it. I feel that the economy section can have two rotating images in each location rather than just the one. However, I don't support having too many images in a rotation template: the reader doesn't see them often enough for visual impact.
As for the changes suggested by Saravask, (a) the Man and calf sharing milk is an good addition to the paddy fields with wind turbines image as representatives of the economy of rural India. Similarly, (b) the dabbawalla image is an excellent addition to a rotating template on the urban economy; the dabbawalla, after all, is an urban phenomenon. It should be complemented with an image of the modern Indian economy. While the Stock Exchange image is sort of half OK, I think a good image of something explicit in the software or industrial sector would be a better replacement for it in a second Economy rotation template. (c) I support the inclusion of the children eating kheer image in the demography section. While the image may not be geographically representative of the people of India (which image is?), it is representative of a major feature of India's demography: that a large proportion of its people are young, even youngsters, and, of those, a majority are poor, but now receiving an education (and free school lunches). (e) I support the replacement of the current image of the Taj Mahal for reasons I have given in the section below. (f) I also support the inclusion of the men playing parcheesi image along with the cricket image in a rotating template of two (again for reasons I have given in the section below). Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I've few concerns. Bombay Stock Exchange is like backbone of Indian economy, replacing it with dabbawala doesn't seem a wise decision. I don't understand how "Children eating kheer and puri" represents Indian demography; for this we can have a rotation template containing images like Sikh farmer, Kondh tribal woman, etc. I'm not against of Joueursindienspushkar but it wouldn't be appropriate in article as at present "Sport" section doesn't say anything about traditional Indian sports/games. — Bill william compton14:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Disruptive Image Changes-- Removing featured images without discussion or consensus.
Misplaced Pages policy states that major changes must be first discussed and agreed upon on the Talk page BEFORE they are implemented on the main page. User: Saravask has been adding images as he pleases without any discussion or consensus.
I left a message for him on User:Saravask Talk page asking him to stop unilateral edits, I also made a section here asking people to discuss image changes first. But he has continued to add images the way he feels.
HereHe changed a FEATURED Taj Mahal image to another one with NO DISCUSSION whatsoever!
Here He changed the Biodiversity Image Rotation (which had multiple pics that had been agreed upon by 20+ users) to just 2 images with no discussion.
Here he replaced an image in the Government section with an image of the interior of the parliament WITHOUT any discussion!
Here he changed an economy image also without any discussion.
Here he added an Environment image with no discussion or consensus.
Here he changed a Defense image with no discussion on talk.
Here he has added his own images of BSE without waiting for consensus on the Talk page.
These edits above are extremely disruptive. Misplaced Pages's policy is to discuss major changes before. User;Saravask has started an edit war by adding his images directly with no discussion. We need to stop such disruptive behavior. Whenever I have reverted these undiscussed edits, User:Fowler&fowler reverts them back. Nikkul (talk) 04:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I have been a regular visitor of the India page and the image changes were unwarranted. The image-war is a pointless waste of time. As per WP:Consensus changes should be made after reaching a consensus and not the other way 'round.
PS: The previous Taj Mahal image was awesome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.219.48.10 (talk • contribs) 08:30 17 October 2011
As someone who has edited this page for five years, this is how I see the images problem. A Featured Article (FA) is vetted by the Misplaced Pages community initially in its Featured Article Candidacy and then, if it aims for longevity, in Featured Article reviews. A featured article candidate, in turn, is judged by the WP:FA Criteria. Among these are 1(a) FA is well-written, 1(b) FA neglects no major facts or details, 1(c) claims in an FA are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources, 1(d) FA represents views fairly and without bias. The Featured Article Criteria, however, say precious little about the images accompanying the text; the third criterion merely says: 3. Media. It has images and other media where appropriate, with succinct captions, and acceptable copyright status. Over the years various people have tried to make Misplaced Pages-wide improvements to the image policy, but with little success so far here, i.e. in relation to images in Featured Articles.
Deciding which images are appropriate for this featured article is an issue that has dogged this article for all five years that I've worked on it. In the days when user:Nichalp watched over the article, he largely averted dealing with the issue by restricting images in a Featured Article to Featured Pictures; however, since Featured Pictures tend to be visually aesthetic, they often feature people or natural scenery or people in natural scenery. In other words, Nichalp's approach certainly addressed the image equivalent of criterion 1(a) above, but not of 1(b), 1(c), and 1(d). To address the issue of 1(b), Saravask, some 3 and 1/2 years ago, single-handedly both suggested the idea of rotation and himself designed (i.e. programmed) the rotation template. Once the rotation template was ready, a number of people submitted various candidates and decisions were made.
Problems 1(c) and 1(d), however, have remained. Pictures, by accompanying texts, make certain claims too. If nothing else, they purportedly support the claims in the text. While we can't exactly produce reliable sources (a la 1(c)) for an image, we can, as a community, do our best to make sure that the pictures are a generally accurate description of the scene they represent. Similarly, the images version of 1(d) would suggest that images be a fair description of reality they represent. A digitally altered (airbrushed) image is a violation of 1(c); a pure pristine unpeopled image of the Taj Mahal is a violation of 1(d), for, if you have lately been to the Taj Mahal, as I had the privilege of doing some time ago, you will realize that it is impossible to see it now without a vast throng of attendant people (to which you are yourself contributing of course).
I believe it is the issues in 1(c) and 1(d) that Saravask is trying to address in his latest effort on this page. The current cricket image File:IPL T20 Chennai vs Kolkata.JPG is a fine image, but it is hardly representative of "sport" as it is enjoyed the vast multitude of India's people; playing cricket in a village field or a city street, or watching cricket on television, might be more representative in that regard. The image of the men playing parcheesi, File:Joueursindienspushkar.jpg is meant to address the latter issue. It shouldn't, in my view, replace the cricket image, but rather be added to a cricket image in a rotating template.
We should certainly proceed by consensus, but be also aware that over the years, people have added digitally enhanced images of one view of India or images that highlight only the shining urban India. Those images will need to be balanced. That is what Saravask is aiming to do. He may have hurried things along a bit, but he has the best intentions and, behind him, a superb history of contributing to this page. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»13:13, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm personally uneasy when I see wholesale changes to a contentious article and suggest that going slow may not be a bad thing. Better to build consensus on the talk page because that will increase the staying power of the chosen images. --regentspark (comment) 14:23, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't go that far because Saravask is acting in good faith to improve the article and the images clearly need changing. But, in a contentious article, it is better to seek consensus before making changes. --regentspark (comment) 15:12, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul is over-exaggerating the case; it is not highly disruptive, he is not assuming good faith when he so proclaims. AGF the matter needs to be discussed here and Saravask asked to discuss each of his image changes including those recently made. Let us justify them by consensus or overturn his edits. AshLin (talk) 15:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul, I can't speak for others, but I am myself perfectly capable of reading your posts without the boldfacing. If you need to emphasize something, please consider italicizing it instead. I tend to get headaches with too much boldfacing and tend to avoid reading boldfaced content. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
That's funny because whenever I try to revert User:Saravasks's undiscussed changes, you revert them back with no explanation. Obviously, the boldfacing is necessary. Nikkul (talk) 03:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Images issue: let's slow down
I'm afraid that we're getting ahead of ourselves and we need to slow down. Let us consider one section at a time, and start with "Demographics." Let us go back to considering the images upstairs (as representatives of Demographics only) and hearing all opinions on them. Let us put off even suggestions of changes to the other sections until we've sorted out demography. I don't know if Saravask has actually changed any images yet, but if he has, I'd request him to change them back to the originals until we've sorted out the demography image(s). (This of course doesn't apply to the Himalayas image submitted by AshLin which already has consensus.) Fowler&fowler«Talk»
Makes sense to me. The many images posted above and lengthy threads has been too much for me to get through and offer help or ideas. If it was done in smaller bits I might be able to keep up. This page is by far the busiest I routinely watch. Average of about 20,000-30,000 views a day. Over 2,400 editors watching. Wow. Pfly (talk) 17:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm all for 'slow' (my spouse will say that the word defines me!). I think Saravask has brought some important points about photographic quality into the discussion and this is a good time to pick images. But it is probably better to do it in a manageable way, one section at a time. Fowler, do you want to take the lead in laying out the choices? Something along the lines of "current image" "alternative image(s)" for demographics would seem to the the way to go. --regentspark (comment) 17:45, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Is it possible to have a slide show (of the kind found in most newspaper web sites today) instead of a rotation? This would give a reader more control, and also immediate access to all images. I would much rather have a slide show in each section than a rotation template. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I did read the two threads. The first discussion seemed inconclusive. The other, 2009, discussion was about random images appearing on a Misplaced Pages page from a collection of College Alumni photos and there were concerns both about the instability of the page and the unworthiness of the exercise. Here, all the images are present on the page at all times; nothing changes from day to day. It is just a different version of "Gallery," which doesn't take as much room and allows the reader to view the images one by one in the same (one picture) image space. In the Einsteinian view of things, space has been converted into time. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Simplified Demographics Proposal
We currently don't have any pictures in demographics.
We need to decide two questions here.
1. Do we want one fixed image or a set of rotating images and, if the latter, how many?
2. Which images do we want?
Sorry, but we have renumber them (starting with K). I have also taken the liberty of including many Misplaced Pages Featured images, which I hadn't before. The candidates are:
K12. Sikh pilgrim after ritual bath at the Harmandir Sahib (Golden Temple) in Amritsar, India. (FP and Misplaced Pages picture of the year 2009.)
In light of remarks by Redtigerxyz and AshLin, I'm adding 24 more images here. Ever state and religion in India is now represented with the exception of Andaman Islanders and Indian Jews, both, sadly, dying communities. Here are the rest:
Wow! So hard to choose, these are all amazing pictures. My choices (in order): K12, K3, K5, K7, K8, K9, K10. For this section, I prefer the pictures that show a specific demographic/ethnic group rather than generic people. --regentspark (comment) 20:32, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Rotation, 8 7 (preferably with slide-show capability).
Random order but with improved captions (preferable with hyperlinks which lead onto interesting stuff). Too few images to choose eight images from. Will go alongwith community. AshLin (talk) 03:08, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I have no opinion about rotation vs fixed, and am about to go to bed, so will keep this simple for now. It occurs to me that images on Misplaced Pages are first seen as thumbnails and then, if one wants to see more, larger. With that in mind, as well as the idea that these pictures are supposed to show people, I like File:Young muslim woman in the Thar desert near Jaisalmer, India.jpg and File:Meghalaya Khasi Woman.jpg. Also I should say I am nearly totally ignorant of the various ethnicities of India. I am liking these pictures for their photography and showing of people, especially at thumbnail size, not for anything to do with India's ethnicities. Also, these comments are done quickly at with me tired and about to sleep. Perhaps tomorrow I will take a closer look. Pfly (talk) 09:08, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to jump in here directly but there are 4635 communities (castes) in India (258900 persons per community if you do an average) according to the Anthropological Survey of India. These are divided in to rural, urban, rich, poor, Hindu, Muslim, Christian and may look completely different in images due to different fashions and attires. For example, the Roman Catholic Brahmins look completely different from other Brahmins (say Chitpavan Brahmins) of the Konkan region and there is no uniformity even within the Konkani people of the same region. This is just a stretch of land that is 30 kilometers in width in the state of Maharashtra.
We need to determine what is due and what is not and then include images that win the weight race.
The proposal above is heavily biased against south Indians, not representing Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Kerala at all and gives undue weight to non-elite communities of north India.
In summary, no one picture nor a rotation of 100 images will ever be able to represent even 10% of the 4,635 communities in India. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:10, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Zuggernaut raises good points but these are not easily addressable in quick time frame. I suggest, we start of the rotation with images chosen above with consensus, and at the same time explore a list of attributes to be found in the many images to be displayed in the rotation. We may improve the rotation as he suggests by chnging images one by one later. AshLin (talk) 03:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
The selection currently proposed for demographics does lack pictures from the South, but the original selection upstairs did not: it had some dozen pictures. Those will now appear in image proposals for the Economy and Culture section. Overall, we will have reasonable geographical balance. Fowler&fowler«Talk»04:19, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Though Zuggernaut makes a good point, I think it better to select pictures that are visually appealing for this article than it is to focus on WP:DUE with a rough attempt to ensure geographic balance across the page. As Zuggernaut also points out, the page is never going to be able to achieve balance anyway, so characteristics like photographic quality, interestingness of the subject, and visual appeal should be the focus here. And, as the pictures themselves testify, India's diversity is easily represented. --regentspark (comment) 09:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Agree with RegentsPark, it's impossible to balance the article considering highly diverse demographics of India; so, I don't think we even need to try. Focus should be on to have a good collection of images, without exaggerating on any specific geography. — Bill william compton11:24, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Current selection is highly biased one: Too much representation of tribals, Arunchal, Rajasthan, MP. No Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka, Kerala, TN, Andhra, Kashmir, Sikkim, Bengal. No sign of Buddhism, Jainism. If a suitable set of neutral images is not found, it is best to retain the map and not add any images till there is a clear consensus to add images.--Redtigerxyz17:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Reply to Redtigerxyz: From the old selection above, I have included here only the pictures which satisfied two criteria: (a) people had already voted for them in the previous discussion, and (b) they were not fit for inclusion in other article sections such as Economy or Culture. In other words, they are mostly portraits. To these pictures I added Misplaced Pages Featured Pictures. It is true that the selection is geographically biased, but that is mainly because the Indian FPs are geographically biased. The lack of geographical coverage will be made up in the other sections by complementary biased selections, and together these will add up to a approximately unbiased whole. I believe this is a good place to start, otherwise there will never by any pictures anywhere on the India page, or for that matter anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Your argument applies as much to the Ajanta Image or the Gandhi-Nehru image in the History section as it does to the "demographic" images. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:34, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
To Redtigerxyz, AshLin and others who would like to have more choices: I went through some 10,000 image files on WikiCommons. With whatever I found there, in in some cases on Flikr, I've created a subpage, User:Fowler&fowler/Additional Images for India Demography, of my user page, which has 24 more images from all the remaining regions and religions of India. The only two left our are: the native Andaman Islanders and the Indian Jews, both, sadly, dying communities. Would you like me to add the images here? You'll certainly have more choices (a total of 36), but it will also be more work. Let me know. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»00:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Honestly, I am a bit uncomfortable that these images have been handpicked just by User:Fowler&fowler and we have only these options. I think it would be much better if we waited for one more week for more editors to add their proposals for demographics images before we voted.
Also, most of these images are of tribals and Eastern India, with no representation of Buddhists, Muslims, etc. Also, there are no pics from several large states like Gujrat, Maharashtra, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Andra Pradesh, J&K, Punjab etc. This is clearly WP:Undue. I feel it is best to wait and ask other users to also add their pics before voting. Does anyone else feel the same way? Nikkul (talk) 02:07, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Apparently, you didn't read my post above. I've now moved the remaining 24 images to the collection above, making it a reasonably unbiased collection of 36 images. Please view them. Fowler&fowler«Talk»03:25, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul, the best way to get over the discomfort is to find and suggest more images especially regarding those peoples, aspects you feel are left out. AshLin (talk) 04:05, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
MangoWong: Zuggernaut is not respecting the time order of the posts here, and thereby changing the meaning of the threads. He has done this before. He, moreover, has an interaction ban with me. I have been relaxed with him, but it doesn't mean there is endless rope. Fowler&fowler«Talk»04:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Instead of being relaxed on Zuggernaut, you have been taking undue advantage of Zuggernaut's interaction ban with you. And since Zuggernaut has an interaction ban with you, that is precisely the reason why Zuggernaut has to avoid giving the impression that Zuggernaut may be responding to you. That is probably the reason for Zuggernaut's post being out of time order. What's so hard to understand about that?MW04:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Zuggernaut made his post after I made mine. Moreover, he says, "The recently expanded gallery ..." Who is he responding to? I expanded the gallery, not Nikkul. So, why the pretence that he somehow was responding to Nikkul? Anyway here is his post. Fowler&fowler«Talk»05:05, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Zuggernaut was saying something to Nikkul. Now you have made it appear that Zuggernaut may have been saying something to you. I think there is something misleading to the present arrangement and the original arrangement was more representative of what was intended by ZMW05:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
The recently expanded gallery is an improvement and a step in the right direction. However, I am still with Redtigerxyz and Nikkul for some additional reasons listed below:
The urban population of India is close to 30% and all we see in the proposed image gallery is everything but that. We should include an image that represents the urban Indian.
Our focus should be on including images that do justice to the subject as well as to the quality of the picture (but this is a secondary criterion).
Selecting and captioning images on the basis of castes or tribes is not fair or even offensive.
There is a sizeable Indian diaspora outside of India so a image should be reserved for them
Lastly, I am fully with Redtigerxyz - if we cannot find images, leave the map there. We can separately setup an initiative and a team that works on getting the images we are looking for. We can ask volunteers who have worked considerably in the areas of images to work on this. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
A full 13 out of 36 images are of urban India. What is a street cobbler in Delhi if not urban? What are school girls in Calcutta if not urban? What is the woman in Mahabalipuram if not urban? Or schoolgirls in Mumbai, or street vendor in Hyderabad, ... Fowler&fowler«Talk»05:09, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
As for the diaspora, they are citizens of whichever country they live in. They contribute to the ethnic diversity of that country, not of India. By that standard, the demographics page of the United Kingdom should have pictures of Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians, and Americans ... Maltese, Falklanders, and Gibraltar-ians. Fowler&fowler«Talk»05:27, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
I think that if anyone thinks the photos posted for debate so far are not enough, they should find and post others--while at the same time trying to keep things relatively manageable and not overwhelming. Obviously, India is extremely diverse, ethnically, and it is clearly impossible to show decent quality photos of all Indians (unless perhaps Indian editors here go out and start taking good photos of people and uploading them to the Commons! hint hint). Also, while the differencies between Indian ethnicities may be obvious to Indians, for many in the rest of the world they are not. Myself as an example, being largely ignorant of this topic, I can see some obvious differencies in the various photos above in terms of skin color and dress, pretty much everyone looks like an "Indian" of one kind or another. Sure I can see differences between southern and northern Indians, and perhaps especially eastern Indians (if that is the right term for Assam and neighboring states), but still, to me they all look Indian. Even in America, which is nowhere near as diverse as India, people look and dress differently in many ways, but we are all Americans. Are Indians not all Indian? From some of the comments here, I get the sense that not all Indians consider other Indians truly Indian. Pfly (talk) 09:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul, Saravask has made some excellent points about photographic quality above and I think we should, as simply as possible, decide on a reasonable set of images that are visually appealing and of good quality. Once we have these images in place, replacing images with others on a case by case basis will be a straightforward process. I think fowler has gone out of his way to choose appealing images and that we are at a good starting point. If we wait for more editors to add images, and if the set of images becomes too large, the process will get unnecessarily complicated and will bog down quickly. I'm sure that there are many better images out there (and know from experience that you have an excellent 'image' eye) but let's just move forward with what we have and deal with replacements once this process is completed. --regentspark (comment) 10:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
view · edit Frequently asked questions
1. Garhwal, beautiful picture, showing children in woollen handmedowns with their grandmother. What pride and dignity.
2. A woman in Uttarakhand sharpening her harvesting sickles, holding the whetting metal between her toes, showing effortless skill, the vacuum flask, which might be the photographer's, a reminder of the timelessness of her technology.
3. A Yoga instructor in Rishikesh sitting on a bench with a bag of groceries. Love his hands.
4. Kumaon, a boatman on the Nainital Lake, with a superbly bronzed face, and faraway look.
1. The stoicism of the afflicted in the Kosi flood of 2008.
2. A little wearily, a man watches the on-going construction of his house in Chandesh, Bihar.
3. Unselfconsciously showing what it takes to make the ubiquitous fuel of rural India.
4. How many hands does it take to pull off a man's first hair cut.
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1. A school in Katni, MP.
2. A Bhil mother with child and uninhibited smile.
3. Dual career couples have been around for a long time. At least ever since pottery was invented.
4. Children in Chambal eating puri and kheer, and displaying poise unseen at the tables of the well-heeled.
1. When hair shines like silk, flowers are optional.
2. Tree climber with equipment.
3. A newly married couple.
4. Man driving bullocks, superb examples of the Zebu.
1. Block printer serenely creating symmetry, Halasur Village, Karnataka.
2. Riding their proud camels past anonymous shop window, Bangalore.
3. Traditional hard hat on traditional scaffolding, Bangalore.
4. Woman draped in silk sari with brocade work, Mysore city.
1. The tattoos, the jewellery, the unworked confidence. A Misplaced Pages Featured Picture.
2. Radiant school-children, every last one smiling.
3. Women waiting for something (what?) one chilly morning in Deogarh.
4. Women's work is never done: carrying hay (jute?) in Puri.
1. The SelaQui International School in Uttar Pradesh.
2. A shopkeeper in Lucknow models a sari for a customer.
3. Women riding a motorcycle through a village in Western UP as the winter evening fog rolls in.
4. Just another day in Agra.
1. The mammals of New Digha, great and small, waiting for tea and snacks.
2. A day at the races.
3. The beachcombers of Udaipur Sea Beach, West Bengal
4. Ploughing on the other hand is work.
1. Sharing in the maternal bounty, Rajasthan.
2. Parcheesi, the national game of India, being played at the crossroads, Pushkar, Rajasthan.
3. Fishmonger in Pondicherry, Tamil Nadu.
4. Female tourists from North-East India, in sarongs and shawls, at the Taj Mahal. One of my own pictures.
5. The dabbawala in Mumbai. Pondering the placement of the 1:25 PM delivery.
6. Granite sculptor in Goa.
7. Mir Alam Mandi, a vegetable market in Hyderabad. (Two blokes are posing, but the rest couldn't care less.)
8. Bananas for sale, Trivandrum, Kerala.
A Sikh farmer from the Punjab
1. Apatani tribal women (a featured picture and my favorite)
3. Dancers from Tutsa sub tribe of Tangsa of Changlang district
current
old
BSE article
K1. A boatman from Kumaon, Uttarakhand, on the Nainital Lake.
K2 A lady in Bundi, Rajasthan (WP:Featured Picture(FP))
K3. A sadhu in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. (FP)
K7. Women in a Gond adivasi village in Madhya Pradesh (FP).
K9. A young Bondo woman from Chattisgarh on her way to the weekly local market. (FP)
K10. A Nishi tribesman from Arunachal Pradesh wearing traditional headdress with hornbill beak. (FP)
K11. A young Muslim woman from the Thar desert, near Jaisalmer, Rajasthan. (FP)
K12. Sikh pilgrim after ritual bath at the Harmandir Sahib (Golden Temple) in Amritsar, India. (FP and Misplaced Pages picture of the year 2009.)
_in_Amritsar,_India.jpg)
K13. A Jain family praying at Shravanabelagola, Karnataka.
K14. A man in Old Cochin, Kochi, Kerala.
K15.. Two farm workers sorting egg plants in Sejwat village, Gujarat.
K16. School students in Science City Kolkata.
K17. A young woman in Mahabalipuram, Tamil Nadu.
K18. Girl students in Mumbai, Maharashtra.
K19. A man selling handicrafts in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh.
K20. A girl from Darp Village near Pelling, Sikkim.
K21. Buddhist monks at Hemis Gompa, Ladakh.
K22. Muslim girls in hijab in Kargil, Jammu and Kashmir
K25. Yimchunger Naga woman at the morung of Kutur village, Nagaland
K26. A Biate family of Mizoram in traditional dress.
K27. A coal miner from Bachra, Jharkhand
K28. A tea shop owner in Dharamsala, Himachal Pradesh.
K29. A girl playing a drum at the Gurgaon railway station, Haryana
K31. School children of Longa Koireng, Manipur.
K32. Children in Tripura prepare for a traditional dance.
K33. A Goan mother watching a soccer game at Agonda beach, Goa.
K34. An Indian Catholic girl's first communion.
K35. A Parsi gentleman in Calcutta, West Bengal.
K36. A street cobbler in Delhi.
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