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Date

I would just like to hear some responses (preferably educated ones) about the actual date of the Babylonian captivity. To our knowledge, the Hebrews were exiled to Babylon in 586 BCE, however, that date does not match up with the "seventy years" they were to be held there. Many sources say that it actually occurred in 605 BCE. In addition, the liberation date 538 BCE doesn't make much sense either, because it doen't match up with either the 586 or the 605. Help a struggling Religious Studies Student! - The above was posted by 24.71.223.141 (talk) on 28 January 2005.

Reliable Bible chronology is based on certain pivotal dates.

A pivotal date is a calendar date in history that has a sound basis for acceptance and that corresponds to a specific event recorded in the Bible. It can then be used as the starting point from which a series of Bible events can be located on the calendar with certainty. Once this pivotal point is fixed, calculations forward or backward from this date are made from accurate records in the Bible itself, such as the stated life spans of people or the duration of the reigns of kings. Thus, starting from a pegged point, we can use the reliable internal chronology of the Bible itself in dating many Bible events. Pivotal Date for the Hebrew Scriptures. A prominent event recorded both in the Bible and in secular history is the overthrow of the city of Babylon by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. The Bible records this event at Daniel 5:30. Various historical sources (including Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, Ptolemy, and the Babylonian tablets) support 539 B.C.E. as the year for the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus. The Nabonidus Chronicle gives the month and day of the city’s fall (the year is missing). Secular chronologers have thus set the date for the fall of Babylon as October 11, 539 B.C.E., according to the Julian calendar, or October 5 by the Gregorian calendar.

Following the overthrow of Babylon, and during his first year as ruler of conquered Babylon, Cyrus issued his famous decree permitting the Jews to return to Jerusalem. In view of the Bible record, the decree was likely made late in 538 B.C.E. or toward the spring of 537 B.C.E. This would give ample opportunity for the Jews to resettle in their homeland and to come up to Jerusalem to restore the worship of Jehovah in “the seventh month,” Tishri, or about October 1, 537 B.C.E.—Ezra 1:1-4; 3:1-6. So based on this of 537 and know the scriptures to be true that the jew would be in captivity for "70 years"(even as aknowledeged by the prophet Daniel himself) would bring the date of Jerusalem's destruction to (537+70) 607 B.C.E. - The above was posted by 72.138.9.243 on 23 December 2005.

Thank you for copy/pasting the Jehovah's Witness revisionist "historical" calculations, in reality based on Charles T. Russel's pyramidology. Only JWs teach that Jerusalem was destroyed 607. There's no single piece of historical evidence to support that, au contraire, everything points to 586. Sure, that date is fundamental to the JW faith, so you might keep yourself telling that... Socramus (talk) 12:28, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ba/Babylcap.html 539 may be a pivotal date, but 607 clearly is not. Daniel himself apparently did not return to his homeland. Although a small remnant was returned to build the temple, the end of the complete exile may as well have ended officially with the restoration of the temple at 516 BC (corresponding with 586, which is a year secular historians are quite certain about).

- The above was posted by 69.252.131.55 on 1 January 2006.

Jeremiah 25:8-11 does not allow for the 70-year period to be anything other than the time from the desolation of Judah to the return of the exiles, because it says the 70 years would be years of "devastation of the land of Judah". That's how Daniel understood it at Daniel 9:2. And 2 Chronicles 36:20-23 says the land was desolate for 70 years to fulfill Jeremiah's prophecy "until the royalty of Persia began to reign" and then they started rebuilding the temple. So it could not have officially ended in 516 unless these accounts have somehow been corrupted. If the accounts are correct then there must be something wrong with Ptolemy's canon (see comment below). 81.102.157.19 (talk) 14:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The date of 586 B.C.E. was arrived at from the Canon of Ptolemy. Unfortunately there is not (yet) any other non-Biblical evidence to substantiate or contradict Ptolemy (which has been suspected to be unreliable). So basically, we don't know. 81.101.135.195 (talk) 09:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Ptolemy's cannon is far from the only source that verifies 586 BCE. It's also testified as the correct date the Nabonidus Chronicle, Harran, Hillah Stele, the excavation of Lachish, and synchronization of Egyptian chronology. Tens of thousands of detailed Economic-administrative, business and legal documents have been unearthed outlining daily, monthly and yearly occurrences during the reign of the Babylonian kings, all of which are 20 years out of sync when using 607 BC, but line up perfectly with 586 BC. The Dictionary of Biblical Archaeology, page 274 states "Archaeological evidence for the destruction of the kingdom in 586 B.C. comes from Jerusalem, Lachish, Tell Beit Mirsim, and other sites."

You’re seriously misinformed if you think 586 BC isn't supported by a plethora archaeological evidence. Actually 607 BC is a date without any archaeological evidence at all. In order to calculate that date you have to make unsupported assumptions about what Daniel "must" have meant and be willing contradict thousands of pieces of evidence. Remember there are many biblical and archeological scholars who also believe in the Biblical inerrancy, yet no scholar alive supports 607 BC. They don’t see a contradiction with Daniel's 70 years and 586 BC, so why do you? You asked for a reply from someone with education, here's an explanation of the 70 years from someone with a PhD: http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/captivity.html Jadon (talk) 16:59, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Style

This article is probably the least structured, least coherent page that I have ever read on Misplaced Pages.--PeadarMaguidhir 19:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

A lot of the references aren't actually references but editorial footnotes. As such there is really only one reference, which appears to be the King James version of the Bible. Hmoulding (talk) 03:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Historicity

I am a bit confused...is this article stating all this as fact, or is it mearly relaying STORIES told by religious texts??

I'm unfamiliar with said texts which is why i'm asking if this is fact or disputed???--Donnie from the mean streets of Boston, KY 20:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy says that Misplaced Pages never reports "facts". It only reports the opinions of sources considered reliable by different points of view. These sources sometimes disagree. Misplaced Pages routinely reports what religious texts say about religiously significant events. It also reports historians' and other views. It identifies which source says what. You can choose for yourself which view to believe. --Shirahadasha 20:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

So the title of the opening section should be changed to "Scriptural Account" then?Rykalski 15:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The opening section reports alternative historical takes on the matter as well as summarising the Bible texts, so I don't think "Scriptural account" is a fair heading. Maybe the paragraph should disentangle more clearly the material that is based on the Bible and that which is not, giving sources for the latter. Anyway, as it's not all scriptural, I've reverted the heading for now, but further discussion is welcome here. - Fayenatic london (talk) 15:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

'Historical Account' implies a belief in the actuality of these events which is non-npov. To report that these events are recorded in the holy texts of the Jews & Christians is not to demonstrate their historicity. All text contain statements which are of the text only and not of the wider world. Disentangling those textual statements from those statements about the wider world contained in a text is extremely difficult especially when the texts in question have so little context. The first section needs a new title. (hope I got the '~'s right this time).Rykalski 19:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I took 'Historical Account' to mean that it is based on the evidence of ancient documents and other historical evidence. Any such evidence (consider the writings of, say, Geoffrey of Monmouth) may need to be weighed. In this case, is there good reason for discarding the scriptural account? Like much of the Bible, it reflects badly on the writer's people and leaders, which would generally be a mark of reliability. Fayenatic london (talk) 21:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to take the view that an account that essentially summarizes the Bible should be called "Biblical account" or similar. There is no need for Misplaced Pages to vouch for or against, or for us to debate, the account's historicity. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It'd be nice all the same to consider actual historical evidence of the captivity. To the extent that it does have a historical basis, and that the historical basis diverges on significant points from the accounts in Jewish scripture, for this article to be considered complete it should cite the known or accepted historical facts and sources. Don't use Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view to excuse not being thorough. Hmoulding (talk) 03:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The article definitely gives undue weight to the torah (which isn't RS anyway) and ignores historical/archaeological research into the subject. 76.175.197.99 (talk) 07:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Number of captives

This page only seems to relate an account based on religious scriptures. For example "40,000 are said to have availed themselves of this opportunity". What is the evidence of this number being this high?

In Chaldaean history, to relocate that great a number of people would be unheard of. The usual practice was to bring the governing class to Babylon. In a city that maybe numbered 50,000, the idea that the aristocracy equalled 80% of hte population is a little ... daft?

There is evidence for continued settlement in jerusalem, it's not as though the city was depopulated and the only jewish people existed in babylon.

I can't get into specifics because I only remember bits and pieces from stydhing my degree in babylonian history, but surely a historian out there can add to this current article with some objective history, not just the accounts of the prophets. While those accounts are historically useful because they represent the words of contemporary people, they arne't neccessarily accurate. Indeed, the bible has more than a few inaccuracies :)

So please, someone who is a Syro/Palestinian archaeologist or Historian, add to this article to discuss the evidence for real numbers and facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.50.230.98 (talk • contribs) 16 March 2007.

Hi! Do you have a source for the viewpoint that the captivity involved the city of Jerusalem only and that there was no increase (due to children or converts) while in captivity? Best, --Shirahadasha 17:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

So, at its hight Babylon's population was say 200K, and of those, 40k were captive jews? Can you imagine 5% of a city being captives? Can you imagine 5% of a city's population leaving en mass? The whole things stinks of religous tradition, not history.

Also, the 1st sentence of the article "There were three occerences of these". Of what,exactly. The 1st paragraph needs work just to make it clear, was there 3 times jews were taken, but then released all at once? Needs to be spelled out, I think193.11.246.156 20:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Can you imagine 5% of a city being captives? Can you imagine 5% of a city's population leaving en mass? Easily. < basil fawlty > Have you heard of slavery, Manuel? It was very big here in America at one point. < / basil fawlty > But the article should probably include the view that Judaism or the Torah as we know it originated at this time (possibly with influence from Zoroastrianism, which we apparently think dates from the tenth or eleventh century before the start of the Gregorian calendar.) Dan (talk) 19:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is the place for that.69.254.76.77 (talk) 13:41, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

40K out of 200K is actually 20%. The whole yarn is patently ridiculous; nobody would give it a moment's credence were it not for the subsequent religious triumph of Judaism via Christianity and Islam. Best guess is the whole thing was made up out of whole cloth when the Persians imported a new priest class under Ezra to administrate the new temple state based in Jerusalem as a cult centre for the satrapy of Trans-Jordan (Eber Nari). Whoever the "returners" were, it's very unlikely they were the descendents of whoever had been deported half a century before, let alone that the religion they brought with them- monotheistic worship of the local god Yoohoo as a proxy for Ahuramazda- bore much relation to any previous worship in the area.82.71.30.178 (talk) 09:20, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow, this is the best sentence on Judaism on Misplaced Pages CUSH 13:22, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Archaeological evidence

What is the evidence? Shouldn't we have sources like this or the ones in it? ]http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/Articles/article_63.pdf] Dougweller (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely. The Bible is cited multiple times as a reliable historical source, and as any fule no, this simply is not the case. This page requires serious re-editing to be brought up to acceptable standards of citation. 93.97.193.226 (talk) 13:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Babylonian captivity of the Church

I'm tempted to add something about the expression Babylonian captivity of the Church, which was originally used to descriped the captivity of the Roman Catholic Church in the see of Avignon during the Western Schism. It was subsequently re-used by Martin Luther during the early days of the Protestant Reformation. ADM (talk) 06:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Intermarriage prohibition was to Canaanites under Mosaic Law

Mosaic Law doesn't prohibit intermarriage EXCEPT to Canaanites. Joseph (3 generations from Abraham) was married to an Egyptian woman, and in line with Deuteronomy 23, those children were accepted into the assembly. Jacob blessed those children and there never has been any exclusion of those ½ tribes.

Similarly, Boaz (10 generations from Abraham) married Ruth, a Moabitess. This is also in line with Dt 23.

Though they was a prohibition to the 10th generation, that period had passed, just as it had on Egyptians to the 3rd generation. Ezra and Nehemiah (who weren't sent by God== not prophets) not only misinterpreted the Law, they've passed that on to THEIR descendants.

The reference that intermarriage is prohibited by Mosaic Law should be stricken from the document, since it doesn't stand under examination. No938 (talk) 22:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

"Nothing was done at the time"?!

I don't understand this paragraph:

According to the book of Ezra-Nehemiah, the Persian Cyrus the Great ended the exile in 538 BC, the year in which he captured Babylon. For reasons not explained in the biblical history nothing was done at the time

"Nothing was done" - in what sense? AxelBoldt (talk) 17:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

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