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User talk:Paul Siebert/OldArchive/2010/June

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Welcome!

Hello, Paul Siebert, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! Arnoutf (talk) 20:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

communicat

Thanks your thoughtful and helpful comments at WW2 discussion. I'll soon respond there. Regards. Communicat (talk) 18:23, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe we might have met personally in London, in the distant past -- Think Kings Cross / student essays / things people do for money -- about 20 years ago. If I'm not mistaken your Phd thesis had something to do with comparing WW1 with WW2, the former as a labour-intensive war, the latter as capital intensive. If you're not the same Paul Phd, my apologies. Regards. Communicat (talk) 13:30, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, not. I am not a professional historian and my PhD had nothing to do with history. Let me also point out that, in my opinion, the style you conduct your discussion on the WWII talk page in not satisfactory: in actuality people are much more friendly than you think. Try to focus on providing more concrete arguments and more sources, and avoid general comments on the article as whole (which in general is in a good shape) and on concrete editors. Otherwise, your activity will have the effect opposite to what you want to achieve. BTW, I myself is not fully satisfied with this article, but I believe its improvement can be done gradually and in much peaceful manner.
Cheers,
--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunatly, Paul Siebert, you have difficulties to define , what is a curriculum is ] and thinks that it should be written by students.In what field you earned his PhD.If I may ask?Celasson (talk) 13:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism

That is the first warning to stop vandalize the article GULAG.Celasson (talk) 13:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Stanisław_Bułak-Bałachowicz

Hi Paul, I don't have much of a dog in this fight but this edit (in particular the "notorious bands in the service of the Polish army") is quite POV and inflammatory. Another concern is that it conflates two distinct issues: 1) A "notable victory". The part which says Perhaps the most notable victory of the Bułak-Bałachowicz's group took place on September 26, when its forces once again broke through enemy lines and captured Pinsk. The city was the most important rail road junction in the area and was planned as the last stand of the Bolshevik forces still fighting to the west of that city. After it was lost, the Red Army central front collapsed and the withdrawal turned into a panic retreat. This text is obviously about the importance of the military operation concerned and it describes a tactical/military victory. The part which you added; committed a series of Jewish pogroms (sic). There were hundreds of victims of rape and murder in Pinsk and in the vicinity. is about what happened afterwards (like I said, I don't have much of a dog in this fight). At the very least, both things should be described - the military importance of the capture of Pinsk by BB and then what happened afterwards. Regardless, wording such as "notorious bands in the service of the Polish army" needs to be obviously avoided. This edit is also very uncharacteristic of you, if I may say so.radek (talk) 02:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

This wording was taken from the cited source, I just slightly softened it. Since nothing is said in the article about anti-Semite atrocities of Bułak-Bałachowicz, I think this wording should stay. In addition, the source tells that Bułak-Bałachowicz's "bands" just entered a city after withdrawal of the the Soviet troops, so the role of Bułak-Bałachowicz in Pinsk capture is controversial. In any event, the role of Bułak-Bałachowicz in pogroms should be described in more details.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, ok. Two separate issues. One is how the military operation should be described. And the wording that was there which you removed addressed that. So even, if the text added is legit, that is not a reason to remove the text that was there before. If you want to discuss the "controversial" participation of BB in the capture of Pinsk then the text should be about the controversial capture of Pinsk by BB. There's no reason to remove the text that was there before.

The second, separate, issue is the participation of BB's troops in any kind of pogroms that took place. I agree that if there are sources for this then they should be included. But this is a separate aspect from the military importance of the capture of Pinsk which you removed. I'll look at the sources later.radek (talk) 03:04, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

BTW, there is already an article on the Pinsk massacre - so just linking to it, while discussing the military operations, would probably be sufficient.radek (talk) 03:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The reason for removal of the text was that it, as well as most of the article is unsourced. I replaced a piece of unsourced text with the text taken from a reliable source that states that:

"The cruel excesses committed on Jews by the notorious bands of General Bulak-Balachowicz in the service of the Polish army, which entered Pinsk in October 1920 after the evacuation of the Soviet troops, constitute another chapter of the martyrdom of the sorely tried Jewish community. There were hundreds of victims of rape and murder in Pinsk and in the vicinity."

Regarding sources in general, the situation is as follows: there is almost no English sources about Stanisław_Bułak-Bałachowicz. In this situation, the article should rely on other sources. What sources they could be? In my opinion, Jewish, Polish, Russian and Belorussian sources should be represented equally, because the Bułak-Bałachowicz's activity affected the representatives of all these nations. Obviously, the description of such a controversial figure would depend on the source's language. Thus, Jewish source describes him as a bandit and criminal, Russian sources tell about him as about filcher, bandit and advenchurer, contemporary Polish and Belorussian as about a talented commander or a national hero, accordingly. The article in its present form is a nationalist Polish-Belorussian views. That should be fixed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:21, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Re Pinsk massacre, the source tells about it separately. The extended quote is below:

"Then came the horrible day of April 5th 1919, when 35 Jews who had gathered in the Beth Am at a meeting on relief activities were dragged out by Polish soldiers, put against the cloister wall and mercilessly executed. The cruel excesses committed on Jews by the notorious bands of General Bulak-Balachowicz in the service of the Polish army, which entered Pinsk in October 1920 after the evacuation of the Soviet troops, constitute another chapter of the martyrdom of the sorely tried Jewish community. There were hundreds of victims of rape and murder in Pinsk and in the vicinity."

In other words, according to the source, the atrocity of Bulak-Balachowicz's "bands", which were just "in the service of the Polish army" was a separate event that took place after the Pinsk massacre proper(which, according to the source, was committed by regular Polish Army).. In addition, the word "notorious" means that Bulak-Balachowicz's troops were known to commit such pogroms systematically.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:29, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Ok, I'm probably not being clear. Your edit replaced text which was already in the article with new text. This means that there's two issues here. First, whether or not the text that was already there in the first place deserved to be removed. Second, whether or not the text you replaced it with is NPOV. It's sort of like two-reverts-in-one. My sense is that the answers are no, and no. But let's leave the second issue - of the text you inserted - out of it for a second. The first issue - that the capture of Pinsk was a notable military phenomenon in the war under discussion - is important in and of itself and therefore should remain in the article. Hence I am going to put it back in, though keeping the text you added (for now). The second issue - the pogrom that might have happened and how to describe it - we can deal with afterwards. Do you agree with this?radek (talk) 04:09, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that it seems that there is no agreement between sources about the role of Bułak-Bałachowicz in capture of Pinsk. At least one source states that his troops just entered the city after evacuation of Soviet troops. How do you propose to resolve this issue?--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

August 2010

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Gulag. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. If the edit warring continues, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. VQuakr (talk) 03:52, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

WQA Alert

Hello, Paul Siebert. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Doc9871 (talk) 12:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

You might be interested

Mass suicide in Demmin-a very strange article. Perhaps you know some sources about this story which could make the article more neutral.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The article cites the Goeschel's book, although only the number of victims has been taken from here. I found the article written by the same author (Suicide at the End of the Third Reich Author(s): Christian GoeschelSource: Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 41, No. 1 (Jan., 2006), pp. 153-173) where he analysed the causes of mass suicides in Germany and explains them mostly not in connection with the Red Army's atrocities.

"It is perhaps this wave of suicides, a highly individual phenomenon that sheds light on wider trends and mentalities, which illustrates very clearly the violent breakdown of German society in 1945 that included the collapse of moral, psychological and religious norms and values.00 For the mass of Germans, life had been restructured to promote an eventually suicidal war campaign, and when this failed, the prohibition on suicide was lifted, and killing oneself became culturally and socially acceptable in a culture of suicide in defeat.1'0 The lack of hope in the future was felt by the German people in general, and found expression in the common fears and common language they used to describe them. With each suicide having a profound impact on friends, families and relatives, they all had to come to terms with their losses on a very personal and emotional level. Since the suicide epidemic mainly occurred in East Germany, it is reasonable to speculate that the emotional and psychological burden on those in the East was much greater and drastic than on those in West Germany."

In connection to that, I believe the stress which has been made on the atrocities committed by Soviet military (with has been made using standard cliches) seems to be redundant.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

There is another aspect to this; the number of women committing suicide is often used as proof of "Mass rape of German women by Soviet Red Army" and of the barbarity of the rapists. The truth seems to be that suicidality was part of the Nazi psyche, like Hitler they just could not stand defeat. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

This does not contradict to what I read. However, none of the sources I read draw this conclusion.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

This might be a useful source.

• Christian Goeschel (2009). Suicide in Nazi Germany. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0199532567.

You do not seem to have email enabled. Can you email me. I am drafting something and would need help with sources. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. – In fact Molobo has started an article at Mass suicides in 1945 Nazi Germany. He seems to have the book, as he is using it as his primary source. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

P.P.P. – I thought the photo on the book cover was staged, but in fact it is authentic, see here File:Leipzigsuicide.jpg. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:54, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

The book seems to be an extended version of the article I quoted on the top of the section.

I disabled my email after notorious EEML case to eliminate any possibility to communuicate with me off-Wiki. I personally see no problem with off-Wiki communication between good faith users (and also I saw no problem with off-Wiki communication between EEML members per se, provided that they use it for creation of good context, not for falcification of the consensus procedure). However, taking into account the recent development of the EEML issue, and, whereas I don't see why good faith editors cannot contact openly, I prefer to avoid any e-mail contacts (and do not recommend you to do that). If you experience problems with sources, please, let me know. I have an access to some databases and I believe I will be able to provide you with needed refs and quotes (if they exist; otherwise, I'll let you know that such sources do not exist, or represent minority views, so they should be treated with cautions).
Sincerely, --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected

The Request for mediation concerning World War II (overview article), to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. An explanation of why it has not been possible to allow this dispute to proceed to mediation is provided at the mediation request page (which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time). Queries on the rejection of this dispute can be directed to the Committee chairperson or e-mailed to the mediation mailing list.

For the Mediation Committee, AGK 20:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
(This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management.)

Sorry WW2

Sorry if there was any edit conflict...did not realizes you were editing the page at the same time... All good ..Moxy (talk) 04:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

:-)
--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

This might be of interest to you

As of January 31, 1951, the amnesty legislation had benefited 792,176 people. They included people with six-month sentences, but also about 35,000 people with sentences of up to one year who were released on parole. Frei specifies that these figures include a bit more than 3,000 functionaries of the SA, the SS, and the Nazi Party who participated in dragging victims to jails and camps; 20,000 other Nazi perpetrators sentenced for "deeds against life" (presumably murder); 30,000 sentenced for causing bodily injury, and about 5,200 charged with "crimes and misdemeanors in office

Btw-the Denazification article on Wiki needs serious rewrite to be more informative and neutral.Right now it is very apologetic, with claims inserted like "witch hunt" regarding denazification.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I found some sources on that account, and I will try to do something in close future.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Great. I have some sources of my own regarding acceptence of Nazis in West Germany and protection of war criminals, so I can certainly contribute to this article and cooperate with you on expanding it.Have a good day.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

"Might well qualify as" vs. "may constitute"

The Spanish cruiser Vizcaya might well have qualified as the most powerful war ship on the Atlantic, if only her armor had not been breached by the main guns of U.S. battleships Texas, Iowa, Oregon, and Indiana and the armored cruiser USS Brooklyn.

More at Talk:Mass killings under Communist regimes#According to professor Michael Ellman.... -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)'

Agreed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I read trough the original source you provided and immediately realized that I had seen this wreck of a straw man argument before on Misplaced Pages (see right). Anyway, here is a barnstar for you. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. – I do not think tendentious editing is the right expression – that is what the article is full of. I think this is a more willful misrepresentation of sources. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		For your resilience in verifying sources. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you

I knew there were previous discussions, but I had no idea where to even start to look. Great job finding them so quickly! Jmlk17 17:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

-) --Paul Siebert (talk) 18:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Battle of Borodino

Hey Paul I've concluded my research do you mind popping over and reading what I've found? Chandler's book was written in 1966 and his line seems to be in line with the historiography of the Soviet period at that time. We need to discuss it a bit.Tirronan (talk) 12:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the work you have done is generally good, although some issues still remain. Firstly, the lede still reflects only the Riehn's position. I also see some inconsistency in the infobox: if the battle was French victory, how can it be a French strategic loss? IMO, if the sources don't tell otherwise, the outcome should be "tactical victory" and "strategically indecisive" (neither French nor Russian strategic situation changed appreciably as a result of the battle). --Paul Siebert (talk) 02:46, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Soviet flag on the Reichstag roof Khaldei.jpg

Thank you for uploading File:Soviet flag on the Reichstag roof Khaldei.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Misplaced Pages takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. J Milburn (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Resolved.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:14, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The Article

I'm going to add a section based on what I read in German 1945. I'll publish it on the talk page first so changes can be made.

Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Good.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:54, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Battle of Berlin

Did you intend to change the section heading here? VernoWhitney (talk) 15:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

No. Have no idea how did it happen.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Battle of Berlin photo issue

Paul, I don't know if we will prevail as to the "photo issue". Irregardless of the outcome, we should write a stub or article as to the "raising the flag over the Reichstag photo" such has been done with that other iconic photo from WWII (by other editors) of US Marines in the PTO, Raising the flag on Iwo Jima. We could then put the photo you have obtained up and link it to the "Battle of Berlin" article. What do you think? Kierzek (talk) 23:59, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Here is an alternative (File:SovieticsAtBrandenburg.jpg), but I really do not understand, how this could be {{PD-self}}! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:06, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

It is hardly {{PD-self}}. If I am not wrong, last time when I looked at this photo, it was not PD-self. More importantly, we need the Reichstag and nothing else: the taking of the Reichstag was the political goal #1 since 1943; it effectively marked the end of the WWII in Europe, and that fact is important enough to warrant inclusion of the photography of this event into the WWII related articles.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:13, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

WWII Talk

When I made that edit I was restoring the Talk page to Nick-D's version. I was acting under the impression that Communicat had refactored Nick-D's comments. Apologies for the misunderstanding. Edward321 (talk) 00:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Now I see what you are talking about. I accidentally removed this. Apologies, I clearly screwed up there. Edward321 (talk) 00:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Glad to hear it was done by accident.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Battle of Berlin, etc

Please, just drop it. You're really starting to wear me down, which would hardly constitute a reasonable conclusion. We don't need these masses of debate- please, you know more about this topic than me, you'd easily be able to resolve this issue in minutes if you wanted to. Why do we have to go through all this? Are you enjoying it? I'm certainly not... J Milburn (talk) 00:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Don't be egocentric. For me, it is also not a light chat. I am also somewhat tied. However, we need to end this dispute with some general agreement, because I have a feeling that in future we may encounter each other on WP pages again and again, and similar dispute will be resumed. I propose to take a break for few days to allow passions to settle down. During this period I promise not to undertake any actions regarding this image, and expect you to do the same. I have to think not only about new arguments for the future dispute, but also about possible solutions, which would take into account some of your concerns. Agreed?--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:22, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

PS. The words "you'd easily be able to resolve this issue in minutes if you wanted to" are a hidden accusation in bad faith. Although such words have no effect on me, I advise you to moderate your tone in future discussions which involve other editors: you lose your patience too frequently(I mean, too frequently for an experienced editor and administrator). Try to be more friendly, peoples in actuality are better than you think. :-) --Paul Siebert (talk) 14:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

There was no egocentricism, and there's no assumption of bad faith here. I just don't know why we need to go on and on and on and on. We should all be doing our best to minimise non-free content- we should never ask the question "Am I allowed to use this here?" we should always be asking the question "can I get away without using this here?" J Milburn (talk) 14:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, we two belong to two different camps, and, accordingly, we see the purposes of Misplaced Pages differently. You goal is to make Misplaced Pages as free as possible, although you don't mind it to be a good encyclopaedia, whereas place these two tasks in a reverse order. Your position has nothing in common with a desire to protect Misplaced Pages from possible lawsuits: for instance, you opposed to inclusion of the Rosental's photo into the Iwo Jima article despite the fact that AP explicitly granted a right to use this photo for WP purposes, so the usage of this photo will not result in any lawsuits against Misplaced Pages. I have to say I understand your position, moreover, in this particular case I share it: the Battle of Iwo Jima article has a lot of good free photos which cover all important aspects of the battle (including the free photo of the flag on Suribachi). Moreover, we have a US postal stamp there, which is in actuality a precise and detailed reproduction of the Rosental's photo (which makes, in my opinion, the former to be a derivative work of the latter, however, I don't care). In other words, in this situation we probably have a good opportunity to create the article which is totally free from any non-free media (although, in my opinion, the last word belongs to those users who work on this article and are more familiar with the subject). Note, I agree with you in this particular case not because you are formally right, but because I feel that the absence of the Rosental's photo is really not detrimental for the article, and the article's ability to achieve its educational and encyclopaedic purposes is not affected (or just negligibly affected) by the removal of this photo.

In other words, I think that the main problem with your vision of the issue is your belief that formal application of the policy without going into details of every particular article gives you a correct and indisputable answer about the fate of one or another non-free image. This position is deeply flawed in my opinion, firstly, because WP policy was not conceived as a collection of formal rules, and, secondly, because formal application of policy rules is harmful for Misplaced Pages.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:23, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Wow. Well, you've misjudged my position, my intentions and the nature of the NFCC in one fell swoop, there. If our positions are really as incompatible as you make out, just give up now, stop wasting my time... Frankly, I'm not interested in dealing with editors who suggest that I "don't mind to be a good encyclopaedia". J Milburn (talk) 15:53, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Don't take offence. In actuality, I just tried to explain you how your position looks like: your behaviour on the BoB talk page creates an impression that the quality of this WP article is not your primary concern. It is very good if I was wrong. Again, I propose you to think about my words and ask yourself: if several editors who worked on WWII related articles for a very long time strongly oppose to removal of this particular photo (note, I never opposed to removal of any other non-free photo so persistently and stubbornly, you may check my history if you have any doubts), then, probably, there is some serious reason behind that, which you overlooked?--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I can understand that the photo is important- I see several articles in which the photo/variants of the photo are used absolutely legitimately. The thing is that it can't simply come down to "those users who work on this article and are more familiar with the subject" to make judgements on issues like this- for a start, their involvement with the article automatically means that they look at the issue in a different way. It's comparable to how we ask outside editors to copyedit. Equally, the editors of the article may not fully understand/care about the particular policy issues. For instance, at a recent FAC, an editor thought it was "a shame" that a copyright violation would end up deleted, and continually asked reviewers to ignore the images, and focus on the prose, when the images were (at that time) the real problem. Equally (and I speak with first-hand experience here) people can often be a little more willing to include things like non-free content, trivial information, plot information and so on in their own articles, while they would support the removal (or even actively remove) comparable material in other places. J Milburn (talk) 16:14, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Regarding your "...people can often be a little more willing to include things..." As I already said, I never opposed to justified attempts to delete non-free images from the articles I work on, and you had an opportunity to see that I am always ready to find a free replacement for non-free images (even when such replacement is not fully adequate). For instance, I noticed that something is wrong with one of the original images the EF collage is made from. I am going to fix it in close future (in connection to that, please, do me a favour, don't remove this collage from the EF infobox: I remember about this problem and I'll replace it with something else soon.) Consequently, this your argument does not work here, moreover, that adds additional points to my position: since my attitude towards non-free media is reasonable in general, the fact that I oppose to the removal of this particular image means that there is something here that you overlooked.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:30, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely, it does, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying- people can generally be more inclined to include NFC in their own articles, while still fully respecting the NFCC elsewhere. Originally (if you'll excuse the very trivial subject matter...) I used an image that was completely unwarranted in Connie Talbot, while spending a lot of time cleaning up other non-free content. It's harder to look with objective eyes at articles on which you have worked- that's why processes like GAC/FAC exist. It would be a little silly if we just left that to "those users who work on this article and are more familiar with the subject". J Milburn (talk) 16:38, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

No, I didn't misunderstood, just didn't make myself clear enough. Of course, you are right, an opinion of non-involved person is sometimes very important and helpful, however it does not mean his word has always to be the last one. In most cases it has to: as a rule, when someone replaces non-free images with free alternatives (even of poorer quality) or even removes these images, neither I nor other editors take any steps to revert that. I am watchlisting most Eastern Europe related history articles and I see that many images, which appeared to be non-free, are gradually disappearing form there. I do not oppose to this process, and I see that other editors also take no steps to prevent that. However, that does not mean that we all accept the idea that the last word always belongs to non-involved editors whose decision is based mostly on the (formally understood) NFCC rules. And this particular case is a rare exception.

I cannot say this image is non-replaceable. I know several alternatives, however, all of them are not free. That is a major problem of the EF related article: the photos are scarce, and even those few photos which are available are non-free per new Russian legislation. I know Russian WP even send a request to adjust Russian copyright law to make usage of this images possible in Misplaced Pages, however, I doubt something will be done in reasonable future.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:11, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Re:Two questions.

In answer to the first- if they're on Commons as CC from the German archive, they're fine for our purposes. I have no opinion on the wider issue, I can't say it's anything I really know about. In answer to the second- yes, but, that's not necessarily the same thing as "public domain". J Milburn (talk) 18:24, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Something interesting

This caught my eye. The claim in the hook seems pretty stunning. Maybe you will find it interesting too. In case you have expertise about the subject, I'm wondering what your opinion about the claim is? Offliner (talk) 22:02, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Here is a review of the source used. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 07:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The fact that some plans existed to bomb Baku is well known. However, the way the article is written is hardly correct. The information is presented in such a way that a reader gets an impression that only German actions against the USSR and France prevented the bombing. However, in actuality even after Sept 1 1939 Britain still hoped that the USSR would eventually become the British ally, so the British policy towards the USSR was "frigid, but non-provocative" (I can provide sources if necessary). The attack of Baku would contradict to British grand strategy, so this attack was considered as possible, but unlikely step.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:55, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

No doubt there would have been voices who hoped that the USSR would eventually become an ally of the British, which you can no doubt find sources for. There were also those who advocated making peace with Nazi Germany too, remember the Munich Agreement? The fall of France was a game changer, it is Osborn's conclusion that this effectively stopped the operation. Recall that the British attacked the French fleet in Operation Catapult as a result, so it really isn't inconceivable that Britain was seriously going to attack the Soviet Union in 1940. Osborn documents that this operation had gone beyond the planning stage; serious preparation was being undertaken: airfields being built, bombs stockpiled, aircraft transferred and recon flights undertaken. Osborn also mentions Churchill's long standing anti-Bolshevism, his strong advocacy of foreign intervention in the Russian Civil War, etc, as a factor affecting his thinking too. --Martin (talk) 20:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

GULAG

Thank you for the professional and balanced discussion about GULAG statisticts! I had a similar discussion regarding the Russian Misplaced Pages article on stalinist repressions (it is a pity that such an comprehensive if unfinished article (ru:Сталинские репрессии) with numbers of victims per categories and different sources is missing in the English wiki).

I would just write what I wrote in the Russian Misplaced Pages discussions about the number of victims - in an English-language album about the Holocaust it is written that the arguments about the corect number of victims actual dininish the value of EACH perished life. If you say that Solzhenitsin's or Conquest's estimates are exagerrated and the official archive figures should be trusted it does not mean that you try to acquit Stalin. Olegwiki (talk) 14:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree that the discussion of the number of victims should be more detailed in English Misplaced Pages. I believe the Russian article will be helpful for that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:26, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

World War II article

Hi Paul, Would you be able to provide a citation to support the material you reverted back to here? Thanks, Nick-D (talk) 08:41, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

The sources are:

1. Земское В.Н. К вопросу о репатриации советских граждан. 1944-1951 годы // История СССР. 1990. № 4 (Zemskov V.N. On repatriation of Soviet citizens. Istoriya SSSR., 1990, No.4. This is the article from the late Soviet/Russian scientific journal. The figures I refer to have been taken from this and other articles of this scholar. Unfortunately, this concrete article is in Russian, so it would be senseless to provide a quote here. However, Zemskov's data are being widely used by Western colleagues, e.g.
2. Edwin Bacon. Glasnost' and the Gulag: New Information on Soviet Forced Labour around World War II. Source: Soviet Studies, Vol. 44, No. 6 (1992), pp. 1069-1086.
3. Michael Ellman. Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments. Source: Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 54, No. 7 (Nov., 2002), pp. 1151-1172.

Although these authors do not reproduce the figures on ex-POWs, they confirm existence of special filtration camps, which were different from GULAG camps, they confirm that many of the filtration camps' inmates were sent home (although they add a reservation that those who died in these camps were also considered to be sent home: "The postwar filtration statistics, which purport to show that as of 1 March 1946, out of the 4.2 million people checked, 58% had been sent home, include those who died in the filtration camps among those 'sent home'." Ellmann, op. cit.). In addition, these, as well as other authors, including even late Conquest, widely use other Zemskov's figures, and do not question reliability of the data obtained by Zemskov. See, e.g., the Edwin Bacon's conclusion about the documents used by Zemskov:

"The arguments in favour of the archive revelations' worth are strong. The possibility of their being a recent fabrication is virtually inconceivable, as several scholars have worked from them, and in any case the atmosphere of glasnost' prevailing in the last years of the Soviet Union militates against a convincing motive for such subterfuge. Therefore, genuine secret state documents of the era are being dealt with. It may be supposed that the authorities wished to have the correct facts available to them, and hence sought to ensure that the reported figures were reliable and comprehensive. Many of the data, notably with regard to the labour settlers, sub-divide the numbers involved in terms of gender, age, nationality, offence of which they were convicted and geographical location. The various types of forced labour and definitions of categories also serve to increase knowledge in a previously sketchy area." (op. cit.)

I think what should be said in the article is that "Soviet ex-POWs and repatriated civilians were treated with great suspect as potential Nazi collaborators, and that some of them were sent to GULAG upon check by NKVD." --Paul Siebert (talk) 16:29, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Paul. A rate of 42% of 4.2 million people being sent to prison camps seems higher than the wording "some of them" implies though. It might be best to quote this statistic in the text. Nick-D (talk) 23:00, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

You misunderstood the quote. Neither Zemskov nor Ellman implied that all the repatriants were send either home or to GULAG. The actual state of things was much more complex. In actuality, a full statistics is as follows:

You can see how deceptive statistics can be: although only 58% of the repatriants were released (and some of them in actuality died by that moment), only 6.5% were to NKVD as spetskontingent (the latter not necessarily meant they were sent to GULAG: sometimes, very frequently, that meant just 6-year exile to remote parts of the USSR.). The discrepancy between the number of sent home and the number of spetskontingent is quite simple: the heavily devastated country simply could not afford a luxury to allow these people just to go home and recover. Many ex-POWs and young civilian were conscripted to serve in the Red Army, others worked in labour battalions to rebuilt the infrastructure destroyed during the war. The labour battalions were closer to military service rather than to GULAG, and, accordingly, these battalions were run by the Ministry (Narkomat) of Defence. Of course, according to contemporary moral norms such a treatment of the peoples who survived in German captivity was inhuman, however, it is necessary to take into account that other Soviet people suffered in about the same extent during the war, therefore, our contemporary criteria of humanism are simply inapplicable to those time situation.

In addition, you have to agree that 226,127 real or alleged Nazi-collaborators out of more than 30 million of serving in the Red Army during a four years period is a quite realistic figure.

The number of those who died in filtration camps (i.e. of those who was released but didn't arrive home) was 32,381. --Paul Siebert (talk) 03:51, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for that Paul; I agree with your wording in light of those statistics. It might be best to copy and paste this discussion to Talk:World War II so there's a rationale for the change. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 07:14, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Done.--Paul Siebert (talk) 11:33, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Paul Nick-D (talk) 22:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

See

Here mark nutley (talk) 18:10, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

There is another way

Could you verify the source here on Trotsky stating statements about Lenin's famous quote? Is it a valid RS for the following stament anyway?

It is said that when he heard of the execution Lenin calmly replied, "There is another way," never becoming involved in a plot to kill the Tsar or other high officials. Leon Trotsky, though, states it is highly unlikely that Lenin made the statement, knowing that Lenin was a supporter of terrorism until the early 1890s,

(Igny (talk) 23:23, 9 October 2010 (UTC))

MKUCR POV tag

Paul, I belatedly responded to more than one of your posts about the POV template. TFD suggested that the way I did it might be easily overlooked, so here is the diff. (I have noticed your response to one part of my responses, but just in case you didn't see the others...) Thanks. AmateurEditor (talk) 23:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for informing. Please, read my last post there . Although it is not a direct responce to your post, it probably may help to come to some consensus.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:55, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Re. removing Justus Maximus's posting

To quote from WP:RPA "Removal of text

There is no official policy regarding when or whether most personal attacks should be removed, although it has been a topic of substantial debate. Removing unquestionable personal attacks from your own user talk page is rarely a matter of concern. On other talk pages, especially where such text is directed against you, removal should typically be limited to clear-cut cases where it is obvious the text is a true personal attack."

I'd say being described as an apologist for terrorism is a personal attack. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

It is not a personal attack. It is a legal threat. However, since your removal does not work (the text is being restored again), it would be better not to join a talk page edit war.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:44, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be right. Per WP:LEGAL, "Misplaced Pages's policy on defamation is to immediately delete libelous material when it has been identified. If you believe that you are the subject of a libelous statement on Misplaced Pages, please contact the information team at info-enwikimedia.org." However, again, since the editor persistently re-inserts this materials it would probably be better to leave the text as it is.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:07, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll keep out of this until it is resolved, unless JM repeats the specific remark, or something similar. I'm in no mood to engage in calm debate, but I'll reserve my right to remove any more such personal attacks on me. It would probably be better for non-involved parties to try to sort this mess out. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:15, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:19, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Your post to ANI re Justus Maximus

Please note that I have moved your post to a previous section discussing the same editor, per my action here. I have kept the header used by you as a sub-heading in the existing discussion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:00, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

The bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima is not comparable to the Holocaust, though civilians died in both events, one was genocide and the other a military operation against military and naval targets. It was not an action that targeted civilians and therefore the opening section should not state that it was. Whether minor or not that is a matter of opinion but the fact that American air forces targeted military bases is not. Please do not revert my edit. --$1LENCE D00600D (talk) 04:13, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Since the Holocaust goes first, your edit understates intentionality of the Holocaust, and, therefore, is unacceptable. Try to propose another solution.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Couldn't help noticing this above. US Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS) noted that both cities, Nagasaki in particular, were civilian centres and not noteworthy military targets. Communicat (talk) 13:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Justus Maximus at ANI

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Mathsci (talk) 15:34, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

AFTERMATH main article

Hi Paul, I've started reworking the main Aftermath article (with predictable disruptions by edward321). How 'bout getting involved in improvement of same? Regards. Communicat (talk) 13:34, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

My Response

Paul Siebert, please see my response to your post on Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. As already stated, all you need to do is retract and apologize for your false statements, and I will retract any of my own statements should it be established beyond reasonable doubt that they can be construed as "offensive" in the context. Regards, Justus Maximus (talk) 13:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Nomination of Soviet occupations for deletion

A discussion has begun about whether the article Soviet occupations, which you created or to which you contributed, should be deleted. While contributions are welcome, an article may be deleted if it is inconsistent with Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines for inclusion, explained in the deletion policy.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Soviet occupations (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and you are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

You may edit the article during the discussion, including to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

P.S. – I went through the edit history, and it seems that all other editors involved in the article are banned. topic banned or have left Misplaced Pages, so I am only informing you. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The differences that we have.

I would like you to know that I am half Russian. I was never told about the genocide by anyone in my family until I wanted to know about it; I could have easily started toward denial of it, especially considering the guilt it has caused. My people raped my boyfriend's grandmother in a concentration camp, and I have to deal with that. Yet I don't deny it. Why are you so focused on minimizing what happened?

No hostility,

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 04:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I am not focused on minimising that, just on finding truth. When I looked through the sources, the only source that provided more or less precise numbers was the Johr's book about Berlin. This procedure is reproduced in details on the talk page. Although this procedure is very unreliable, it is the only numerical data available for me. All other sources just repeat this estimate, as well as the Johr's extrapolation to whole Germany, and I doubt we have to reproduce all subsequent exaggerations, which are based on hearsay or even on virtually nothing.

Frankly speaking, the story of rapes per se is a genocide denial. These mass rapes cannot be compared with mass murders of peoples in Eastern Europe committed by the Germans. Even if we exclude the Holocaust, the number of people who were executed, bombed, starved to death etc, far exceeded the number of raped German woman. Yes, these woman were raped, and that was bad. However, taking these events out of their historical context means presenting the Germans as victims, not perpetrators, which means denial of genocide.

We don't have to forget neither rapes, nor their historical context (what the sources do in actuality). Therefore, by writing what it wrote I just restored balance.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure, no hostility. You just should read more.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Holodomor

With its present title the Holodomor article can never be much more than a politicized POV-fork of the Soviet famine of 1932–1933. I think it should instead concentrate on something different: the "Holodomor industry" itself. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)