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Christian Wulff

There are a couple of discussions the talk page that some of you might be interested in. Kingjeff (talk) 02:06, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the discussions on the talk page is helping at all. Kingjeff (talk) 02:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

New portal - East Frisia

I have just added a new portal for East Frisia at this page. This joins other portals added since last October for:

• Harz Mountains.
• Lower Saxony
• Schleswig-Holstein
• Elbe-Weser Triangle
• Saxony-Anhalt
• Hamburg
• North Rhine-Westphalia

All these portals (and earlier ones e.g. Bavaria) could use a couple of editors each to keep them fresh. Please feel free to join in. --Bermicourt (talk) 15:00, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Siege of Godesberg FAC

Siege of Godesberg has been nominated for Featured Article and could use reviewers. auntieruth (talk) 17:43, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Ministerpräsident

Discussion

Since there are more than 2 options, does everyone agree with a Two-round system? Kingjeff (talk) 14:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Chl (talk) 15:14, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed Leicchaucer (talk) 16:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I've decided to take part in the vote after all, though once more I'd like to add that I could live with either term and don't regard any of them as wrong. Bibfile (talk) 15:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. A vote that can do good on WP should be one based on opposition to certain terms but on actual positive agreement to one. Str1977 07:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

We don't use voting at Misplaced Pages, we use discussion and consensus, see Misplaced Pages:Voting. Furthermore, the topic of your proposed vote is a different question than the question previously being discussed at the lenghty Christian Wulff talk page and elsewhere. I do not necessarily agree that we have to use the same title for other states just because we use a particular title in the case of Lower Saxony, I think we would always need to look at what reliable sources relating to a particular office say, in any case this issue needs more discussion, not a premature vote not supported by policy on voting, discussion and consensus. Also, you cannot expect people to have read the Christian Wulff talk page in order to take part in a vote. Josh Gorand (talk) 05:41, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Discussion was exhausted and I know at least 1 other editor is in agreement with me. What is the is the topic? Isn't this all about the most appropriate name for the Ministerpräsident? Simply put, I put down every suggestion that was mentioned. The whole reason why this is a discussion part right above the vote is to have a further discussion if any person feels they need further discussion. I don't expect people to read the Christian Wulff talk page. The reference to the Christian Wulff talk page is listed for 2 reasons. Firstly, it is there for any user who has been part of the discussion to go back and look at the discussions if they feel they need to. Secondly, any user who has not been part of the discussion can go see the discussion if they want to before they vote. Kingjeff (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

In the previous discussions, we only discussed Lower Saxony and looked at sources relating specifically to Lower Saxony. There may be historical reasons for Lower Saxony semi-officially using the term Prime Minister in English (it was part of the British occupation zone, and the British appointed the first heads of government in the area after the war). We haven't looked into sources relating to other states. Josh Gorand (talk) 08:37, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, hadn't thought to look there. Well, the Brits used the German Ministerpräsident (e.g. Ordinance No. 55 - Creation of the Land Niedersachsen, 1st November 1946). Meanwhile, the Americans used Minister-President (e.g. Bayerisches Gesetz- und Verordnungsblatt Nr. 1/1946, p.2). --Dodo19 (talk) 09:29, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

There is a shorter discussion at Talk:Prime Minister of Lower Saxony, relating to the title of the Lower Saxon heads of government. Two of the terms both have some merit, Prime Minister (being the common English term in official use in English by some German states) and Minister-President (being the literal translation, also in use in English by other German states, although not really an English term). Both should be included in relevant articles, like it was done here: Prime Minister of Lower Saxony. We have found ample evidence that the Germans use "Premier" as a less official short-hand term for "Prime Minister", and that the terms are frequently used interchangeably, I think we should primarily use the most formal term, while noting the use of short-hand terms in relevant articles. Josh Gorand (talk) 05:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Frequency Analysis

• The Brandenburg Minister-Präsident Matthias Platzeck is one of the longest-serving, and thus has a relatively long history of press coverage. Here is a google news frequency analysis of the titles English-language news publications have used to describe his position:
  • Minister-president: 44 English-language hits (the last 8 are Dutch)
  • Prime minister: 56 English-language hits
  • Governor: 92 English-language hits
  • Premier: 100+ English-language hits
• This is a "quick and dirty" analysis that includes occasional false matches, but from looking at it a small number of false matches occur in all four categories, and they don't seem to have a significant effect on the overall outcome. --JN466 23:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think the sources (here and elsewhere) have established quite clearly that "Minister-President" is the most uncommon term in English of all possible terms, and I would say even Premier is better than Minister-President, although it's less official-sounding (it needs to be taken into consideration that journalists frequently are less precise, so Governor shouldn't be an option at all because it's formally incorrect (and unlike all the other terms, never used formally, i.e. by government publications), and Premier is frequently used as a short-hand term for Prime Minister, sometimes interchangeably as we previously established, so it's use doesn't mean Prime Minister cannot be used in more formal (like encyclopedic) contexts). But as I said before, it's not sufficient to only mention one term and ignore all the others, given the situation (multiple terms used), so I'm not really sure what we are discussing at this point. I think all terms in use that have some merit (=Prime Minister, Premier and Minister-President, but not Governor) need to be mentioned appropriately. I still think we should look at sources relating to specific states when determining which title to use. Josh Gorand (talk) 11:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

A few points:

• I think we can agree that it is OK to mention other names or descriptions in the article on the office, though not necessarily in the biographical article on one person who happened to hold the office. It may be sufficient to link to the article describing the office.
• Since several German Länder have the same office, I think we really want to agree on a term for the equivalent office for all the Länder that use the term Ministerpräsident. Inconsistency would make it look as if the Länder used different titles. This should also be taken into account when looking at frequencies.
• When it comes down to the title, I think we should ignore journalistic references and focus on established English titles in reference works or academic works.
• President Obama might be referred to as "the President of the United States", "POTUS", "the American head of state", "the US head of government", "the commander in chief", or a number of other things. Which of these is used most often does not mean that term should be used as the article title. The same applies here. It has to be used as his normal title to count. I think "premier" may be one of the terms used to refer to the position without necessarily being used as the title for that office.
• This straw poll may help us to reach a decision, but we need to reach a consensus not just that the chosen English term is the one used most frequently, but also that it has become established in English. If Google counts are fairly low and frequencies do not differ greatly, that would suggest that no single term has become established. In that case the German term should be used.

--Boson (talk) 18:21, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with several of your points here, but not entirely with all of them. While English sources seem to use at least three different terms for this office, virtually none of them use a German language term, so this shouldn't be an option in an English language encyclopedia.

As far as "premier" is concerned, I agree that it's a fairly common term referring to the position (similar to "governor") in journalistic sources, but I'm inclined to think it's not (the translation of) the formal name of the office for a number of reasons, but rather a short-hand term.

Here are some results from Google Scholar. The main finding seems to be the fact that premier and governor are both significantly less used by academic sources, compared to journalistic sources. Both Prime Minister and Minister-President are widely used by academic sources:

• "Prime Minister of saxony": 77 results
• "Minister-President of saxony": 56 results
• "governor of Saxony": 21 results
• "Premier of Saxony": 13 results

• • "Prime Minister of Lower Saxony": 80 results
  • "Minister-President of Lower Saxony": 68 results
  • "Premier of Lower Saxony": 30 results
  • "governor of Lower Saxony": 8 results

• "Prime Minister of Bavaria": 177 results
• "Minister-President of Bavaria": 156 results
• "governor of Bavaria": 72 results
• "Premier of Bavaria": 43 results

• • "Minister-President of Baden-Württemberg": 23 results
  • "Prime Minister of Baden-Württemberg": 21 results
  • "Premier of Baden-Württemberg": 2 results
  • "governor of Baden-Württemberg": 1 result

• "Prime Minister of Brandenburg": 40 results
• "Minister-President of Brandenburg": 29 results
• "governor of Brandenburg": 14 results
• "Premier of Brandenburg": 10 results

• • "Minister-President of Hesse": 34 results
  • "Prime Minister of Hesse": 27 results
  • "governor of Hesse": 12 results
  • "Premier of Hesse": 11 results

• "Minister-President of North Rhine-Westphalia": 69 results
• "Prime Minister of North Rhine-Westphalia": 44 results
• "Premier of North Rhine-Westphalia": 14 results
• "governor of North Rhine-Westphalia": 9 results

• • "Minister-President of Rhineland-Palatinate": 34
  • "Prime Minister of Rhineland-Palatinate": 15
  • "Premier of Rhineland-Palatinate": 6
  • "governor of Rhineland-Palatinate": 3

• "Prime minister of Thuringia": 13
• "governor of Thuringia": 8
• "Minister-President of Thuringia": 5
• "Premier of Thuringia": 4

• • "Minister-President of Schleswig-Holstein": 32
  • "Prime Minister of Schleswig-Holstein": 29
  • "governor of Schleswig-Holstein": 14
  • "Premier of Schleswig-Holstein": 13

I think it's clear that Prime Minister is an established term, used by both academic and English language journalistic sources, as well as authoritive/government sources (as previously established).

Minister-President is also used by other authoritive/government sources (as previously established) and by academic sources, but less frequently by journalistic, English language sources, given the fact that it's not really an English term. Also, some of the academic authors using the term may be non-native speakers. I would like to stress once again that Prime Minister and German Ministerpräsident have exactly the same meaning, i.e. the one heading the government, the first of the ministers - Prime Minister just happens to be the common English term and Ministerpräsident happens to be the common German term, also used when referring to the PMs of foreign countries in German.

Premier and Governor are both frequently used by journalistic sources, but seldomly by academic sources, and seldomly/never by authoritive/government sources. Josh Gorand (talk) 05:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Usage by the German state governments

• Lower Saxony - the state government uses Prime Minister consistently in English (also note that the PM is a native English speaker)
• Bavaria - the state government uses Prime Minister in English - also note that native English speakers are responsible for the contents of their English language website
• Saxony - the state government uses Prime Minister in English  
• North Rhine-Westphalia - as we established, they use Prime Minister and Premier interchangeably
• Baden-Württemberg - the state government uses Minister President/Head of Government on their English language website, although the material on the state government only comprises a few paragraphs and does not indicate it was written by a native speaker
• Several states (like Hesse, Thuringia, Saarland...) don't seem to have English language websites. Josh Gorand (talk) 07:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that Hesse and Thuringia don't seem to have English language websites (which surprises me a little, especially in the case of Hesse), but for most other you'll find that they exist:

Saxony-Anhalt : Minister-President

Brandenburg : Minister-President

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern : Minister-President

Saarland : Prime Minister

Schleswig-Holstein: : Minister-President

I would also like to point out that being a native speaker does not automatically qualify you as a translator (as Josh Gorand seems to imply for David McAllister, who may or may not have been marginally involved in the translation of his government's website), and in any case, even a translator who is a native speaker would very likely consult their customer about their preference if they come across a term that can be translated several ways, such as 'Ministerpräsident'. So what we've got here is essentially a list of the preferred translations of the respective governments for their promotional and service websites. However, this could certainly give us another hint which term to use, but it's rather inconclusive, isn't it? Bibfile (talk) 08:32, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not entirely inconclusive. It demonstrates that two terms, Prime Minister and Minister-President, are widely used by the German state governments in English, while terms such as "Governor" and "Premier" are (almost) not used at all. I'm fully aware that the usage of the German states alone cannot determine English language usage, but it's, inter alia, a factor in the decision. The fact that Prime Minister is widely used by them, undermines the previous, unsourced claim that Prime Minister is somehow "incorrect" (I wouldn't say any of the terms are "incorrect", except for Governor, this is a matter is which term is the best translation for the common term for a head of government).

Looking again at the journalistic sources: They demonstrated that Prime Minister was one of the widely used terms, while Minister-President was the most uncommon of all four terms (Prime Minister, Premier, Governor, Minister-President).

This means that Prime Minister is one of the two terms widely used by German state governments in English, in addition to being probably the most common term in academic sources, and one of the widely used terms in English language journalistic usage.

The other term, Minister-President, is used by some German states (but note that the oldest states, like Saxony and Bavaria, all use Prime Minister). However, this fact alone doesn't make it an established English term, and we did establish that it was the most uncommon term in English language journalistic sources. The usage of the state governments carries significantly more weight if the usage is also supported by other sources in English.

In short, Prime Minister and Minister-President are both supported by government sources to the same degree, but Prime Minister is supported by significantly more English language third party sources. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

First round vote

Ministerpräsident/Ministerpräsidentin

Minister-President

1. Kingjeff (talk) 03:03, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
2. Dodo19 (talk) 05:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
3. Bermicourt (talk) 05:32, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
4. Jared Preston (talk) 07:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
5. Bibfile (talk) 15:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
6. auntieruth (talk) 22:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Prime Minister

1. Str1977 06:43, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
2. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:23, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
3. Out of respect for the choice at the individual articles, but Minister-President should be included once parenthetically in the text to give readers the link. -Rrius (talk) 22:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
4. CGN2010 (talk) 07:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC) (created the NRW list)

Premier

1. Leicchaucer (talk) 08:03, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
2. Judging from a short search on GNews, I think "premier" is used more often and as such we should use it as well (as the spirit of WP:COMMONNAME tells us to). Regards SoWhy 08:32, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
3. Chl (talk) 11:19, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Second round vote

Minister-President

1. Kingjeff (talk) 13:57, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
2. Jared Preston (talk) 14:04, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Prime Minister

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Six Families of Berlin

Hi. We need some German speakers to help us with this AfD. Thanks in advance. - Richard Cavell (talk) 13:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Oskar Kuhn

FYI, Oskar Kuhn has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.192.55 (talk) 07:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Necati Arabaci

FYI, Necati Arabaci has been nominated for deletion. I think a few German-speaking/reading editors might be able to help things out at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Necati Arabaci. Location (talk) 05:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

A Class Review of Organization of the Luftwaffe (1933–1945) now Open

Hi, This article predominantly focuses on the Organizational structure of Luftwaffe during WWII and not its history. An honest effort has been made to cover all aspects of the hierarchy including Ground elements part of Luftwaffe, such as Paratroops and Flak regiments. I will appreciate your feedback. Thanks for the time invested. '  Perseus 71  03:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

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