User talk:AnmaFinotera: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 17:52, 15 December 2009 view sourceOBrasilo (talk \| contribs)355 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit		Revision as of 18:59, 15 December 2009 view source AnmaFinotera (talk \| contribs)107,494 edits →Tokyo Mew Mew: tl;dr and pointless to continue - short answer is the article is fine as is and does not need the crud desiredNext edit →
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	From ]: "''If '''anyone''', including the article creator, removes a {{tl\|prod}} tag from an article, do not replace it, even if the tag was apparently removed in '''bad faith.'''''". Everyone has the right to remove a prod tag, even vandals and socks. So long as the removal is not vandalism in ''itself'', then the removal stands. Yes, the article is unlikely to survive an AfD, however, that's not for us to judge, if the prod is contested, then it must go to AfD. By the way, sorry I didn't notify you, my brain hasn't been operating particularly well today.<br>		From ]: "''If '''anyone''', including the article creator, removes a {{tl\|prod}} tag from an article, do not replace it, even if the tag was apparently removed in '''bad faith.'''''". Everyone has the right to remove a prod tag, even vandals and socks. So long as the removal is not vandalism in ''itself'', then the removal stands. Yes, the article is unlikely to survive an AfD, however, that's not for us to judge, if the prod is contested, then it must go to AfD. By the way, sorry I didn't notify you, my brain hasn't been operating particularly well today.<br>
	Kindest regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 16:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)		Kindest regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 16:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

	== Tokyo Mew Mew ==

	How would you feel, if you temporarily quit a WikiProject, only to return a few years later, only to see most of what you've written removed, with no explanation left behind it, anywhere? I think you'd be just as frustrated, as I am right.

	I'm sorry if I might have come across as trying to insult, and personally attack, but that wasn't my intention. I simply wanted, as one of the only members of the original team working on the Tokyo Mew Mew articles here on Misplaced Pages left, to know the reason for the removal of all the information pertaining to non-English dubs/translations of the series.

	I'm sorry if I sounded angry in my rant there, but you need to understand me. None of the old team had any problems with that information being listed in the article, but then came the new team, and decided that suddenly it was wrong to have it there, for some reason, reason not ever specified. Or at least missed by me. That angered me a bit, which I echoed in my rant there, which I realize was wrong, so sorry for that again. - ] (]) 19:56, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

	:Please remember, it isn't your article and your demands to know why it was changed, particularly phrased the way you did, came across as a claim of ownership (see ]). Misplaced Pages articles are generally not static, particularly start class articles (which this one was at the time you seemed to have left it). There is no "new team" and no one owns the article except the community as a whole (just like with all articles). The article was improved per Misplaced Pages guidelines and standards by various editors from the same Anime and manga Wikiproject that has worked on this and many other articles. Just because others didn't find problems with the article, doesn't mean they didn't exist, as not everyone can look at the article neutrally nor were actually evaluating it against what Misplaced Pages considers a good article. There are many articles that have inappropriate content and, honestly, fans of series tend to put a lot into an article that doesn't belong. You'll find that little remains of any of the TMM articles from 2007. The information on the foreign language dubs (and I'm presuming you mean the detailed stuff that was scattered in the the articles and not the infobox items?) was excessive and giving it undue weight by giving it too much attention, when they were basically minor adaptations of a secondary adaptation, was not in keeping with what such an article should have, so it was removed as part of its clean up. That they were released in other languages is mentioned, where verifiable by high quality sources, but that is all that is needed.
	:There is no need to explain every last edit on the talk page when its done, particularly a non-controversial one. That is why there is no talk page explanation. At the time, all active editors seemed to know and understand its removal without any question asked. You are the first to question in the last two years (which would seem to indicate that maybe others did realize it didn't belong but didn't want to deal with it at the time). If you check the talk page archives, you can see the the discussions regarding those edits that did need consensus. Myself and others have spent the last two years working on all of the TMM articles so that they conform to Misplaced Pages's guidelines and policies, including ], ], ], ], etc and that it complied with the ] (which has changed in the last two years. The main article is now a featured article. The lists are all featured lists. As a whole, it is a featured topic. As suhc, I hope you can see why your remarks were seen as an insult and a personal attack. -- ] (] '''·''' ]) 20:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Well, I'd suggest you to read on those dubs again, since the dubs that were mentioned are independent dubs, and not re-dubs of the 4Kids dub, as you seem to think. In fact, most of the dubs mentioned there preserved the anime virtually intact, as compared to the 4Kids dub, which overhauled it very much. In fact, most of these dubs have their own names for the characters, differing wildly from both the 4Kids ones, and the original ones, for example, Momomiya Ichigo is called Zoey Hanson in 4Kids, but Strawberry Momomiya in the Italian dub, Mint Aizawa is called I don't remember even what anymore, in 4Kids, but Mina Aizawa in the Italian dub, and Bo Ma in the Mandarin Chinese dub.
	::As for giving undue weight, even the English dubs are given undue weight by this logic, since the vast majority of the users of English Misplaced Pages aren't from the Anglosphere, so they don't even have access to the English dubs, so why should they care about them? Yet I don't mind the information about them be included since it's worth it. But I think non-English dubs, I mean, original dubs, not dubs based on the 4Kids one, should be mentioned, detailing the alterations. The dubs based on the 4Kids dub shouldn't be mentioned, obviously, since they can just be briefly mentioned under the 4Kids dub. The exception here would be the French dub, of which the first 26 episodes are a re-dub of the 4Kids dub, but the second 26 episodes are an original dub.
	::Also, if you look at articles of American, or English, series, like ], you'll find that they have related pages, where they list how certain lines, etc., were adapted internationally. Also, as per the Misplaced Pages guidelines, notability specifically in the Anglosphere isn't necessary (otherwise, articles, such as that of the Polish ] IM protocol and client, and that of the Polish anti-police ] slogan, would have been speedily deleted already), but only notability in the subject's own country is. So I don't really understand, why the Anime and Manga WikiProject insists on having non-English adaptations removed from the articles - after all, they aren't considered in-appropriate by Misplaced Pages guidelines.
	::Also, I'd like to pose a question - if a researcher, who doesn't speak a word of Italian, and Chinese, has to get information on those two dubs of a particular series, where are they supposed to search, if not on the English Misplaced Pages? You really think people can afford time and money to learn 5 languages to then go to 5 different Misplaced Pages's, just to get information on those specific language dubs? Yes, I do speak a lot of languages, but I still, for example, can't really read Hanzi, Hanja, or Kanji, that well, so if I need information on the Chinese dubs of Tokyo Mew Mew, right now, for example, I don't have any place to look at, since the English Misplaced Pages frowns upon it, and the Chinese Misplaced Pages is use-less to me, because of the afore-mentioned language barrier. So, where should I look for the information in this case? Should I really waste several years and several hundred Euro's on learning Mandarin Chinese, just so I can read how Kish was called in the Chinese dub? Please ponder on this question thoroughly, since it poses a question which is very important in Anime and Manga research. :) - ] (]) 15:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

	:::The English dubs are not given undue weight, they are mentioned in an appropriate fashion, while the great bulk of the articles are about the actual manga - which is the primary work. This is the English Misplaced Pages, and they have significant more coverage than any other dub. Non-English translations are mentioned, briefly, as is all that is warranted. "Alterations" and what not do not need mention. Please remember that this is an encyclopedia and not a fansite, and that is purely fancruft. If people want to know about non-English versions, I doubt they would come to Misplaced Pages except maybe to see if they were made (which is mentioned already). Beyond that, they will need to do their own research. By your own argument, you are showing that they are not notable and not worthy of inclusion if a research couldn't possibly find the information anywhere else. Misplaced Pages is also not for the publication of original research and unverified content. Other articles having bad content like you mentioned is not a valid excuse to mess up this one (and, FYI, ] does have significant coverage in English sources and there isn't anything more in ] about any foreign adaptations than there is in TMM's article). It is also the consensus of the Film and Television project that such content does not belong in media articles unless it can be shown that the translations are notable (which none of the others are). The question isn't important and doesn't need pondering as its rather silly. If you want to know what Kish was called in the Chinese dub, either yes learn Chinese, B learn how to use Google translate, or Google it and see if a fansite covered it because it will not be here. It does not have any importance to Anime/Manga research, as it is not the purpose of Misplaced Pages nor relevant to the topic as a whole. None of the English anime/manga research books cover it either. -- ] (] '''·''' ]) 17:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

	::::This is the Misplaced Pages in the English language, not the Misplaced Pages of the Anglosphere. It's organized by language, and not by countries, or spheres, so yes, the English (specifically, North American) dubs are given undue weight by using your logic, since those dubs are only notable in those specific countries, and not world-wide. However, again, as per the Misplaced Pages guidelines, only notability in the specific country is necessary for inclusion, so your logic is off-track here.<br />
	''Please remember that this is an encyclopedia and not a fansite, and that is purely fancruft.'' And how is information about the English dub not fancruft? From the point of view from people outside the Anglosphere (and most of the users here are outside the Anglosphere), it's fancruft. Also, it's POV, since the articles are taking Anglosphere-sided POV by giving so much weight on those dubs, since they're taking the POV, that they're more important, than the rest of the dubs.<br />
	And I invite you to look at pages, such as ], which have the same purpose, as the now-defunct Tokyo Mew Mew international adaptations page, had. Yet, no-one has any problems about those, I wonder why.<br />
	And again, let me stress the point, that the vast majority of the users of the English Misplaced Pages are from outside the Anglosphere, so most of them couldn't care less about the 4Kids dub. So mentioning that dub in details, but not the others, well, is Anglospjhere-sided POV, as I said above.<br />
	''If people want to know about non-English versions, I doubt they would come to Misplaced Pages except maybe to see if they were made (which is mentioned already). Beyond that, they will need to do their own research.'' This kind of logic might be true for the non-English versions of Misplaced Pages, since those languages aren't world-wide languages, so most of their users are native speakers, anyway. But English is a world-wide language, so most of the users here are outside the Anglosphere, so assuming that every visitor here will necessarily care about the English dubs, but couldn't care less about the non-English ones, is POV, and just a wrong assumption.<br />
	''If you want to know what Kish was called in the Chinese dub, either yes learn Chinese, B learn how to use Google translate, or Google it and see if a fansite covered it because it will not be here.'' And what if I want information on the Cantonese dub, instead? Google translator doesn't support Cantonese (yet), and neither does any other on-line translator, so my only option would be to waste hundreds of euro's on learning Cantonese just for a character's language. And well, if you're rich enough to afford such expenses, and have enough time as well, feel free to do so. But to force other people to, is just tasteless. And about fansites - I could write the information on fansites, yes, but you really think I'll get as many people visiting a crap fansite, as those visiting Misplaced Pages? And considering the fact, that most probably no-one will visit a fansite, do you really think it's worth making one? If you really think people enjoy making fansites which no-one visits, just to write on them a page with information, which could well be much better off on Misplaced Pages, just because Misplaced Pages said no, well, you're horribly wrong.<br />
	Last, but not least, I wouldn't be surprised if someone starts a new, better Misplaced Pages soon, one, which won't have the inappropriate policies this one has, and one, which will actually allow for all human knowledge to be stored for generations to come, rather, than just knowledge which is notable in the Anglosphere, and which is approved by major Anglosphere publications. - ] (]) 17:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

	== Where then? ==		== Where then? ==

Revision as of 18:59, 15 December 2009

User:Collectonian/talkheader

Texas Task Force 1 wikipedia page

I'm a bit new to wikipedia, so forgive me if I'm not up-to-date on commonly accepted protocols and procedures. I am the public information officer for Texas Task Force 1, specifically I am tasked with reviewing and updating information about the team. Currently I am working to update the content of the wikipedia page such as the deployments that we have done over the years to help the citizens of Texas and the nation. I make the updates and they are removed shortly afterwards. Do you have some connection to TEEX and to Texas Task Force 1?

Thanks, Brian David Smith Public Information Officer, brian.smith@teexmail.tamu.edu Briandavidsmith(talk) 22:18, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

As such, you should not be editing that article at all. Misplaced Pages is NOT here for you to promote the team. Misplaced Pages has very strict guidelines about editing your own articles. Your edits were reverted because they were not appropriate and they will continue to be so. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:41, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations

For this. Very impressive. :) @Kate (parlez) 02:37, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :) -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:38, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Differences in manga and anime, perhaps?

Seriously, and I'm being very serious here, maybe we have got our wires crossed. I've seen the Inuyasha anime but never read the manga. Have you read it? Does Kagome travel backwards and forwards in time in the manga as she does in the anime or was it an additional aspect of her life that the animators put in? I've known that to happen in other series or movies so did it happen here? "Editor clearly doesn't care about actually changing his behavior - just posting his opinions and fancruft": editor actually cares about facts and passing knowledge on to others.--Marktreut (talk) 13:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually she does travel much less in the manga than in the anime, and most of the scenes of her interacting with her classmates are not in it. This is one of many reasons they are not even listed in the list. They are so minor in the manga as to be forgettable. You must remember, the InuYasha anime in particular has a **itload of filler in it while the manga, though long, does generally keep the story moving. If you have not read the manga yourself, how can you claim you are passing on knowledge when its knowledge you yourself lack? Facts without verification are opinions, and your owns. Misplaced Pages is not here to pass on your personal knowledge, but verifiable information from reliable sources. That is the point you continue to miss. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:42, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

"how can you claim you are passing on knowledge when its knowledge you yourself lack": I'm passing on knowledge of the anime. If it is not that common an event in the manga then why don't you say so instead of just undoing my contributions? You could have corrected my statement with something like "In the anime, Kagome faces the additonal dilemma of balancing the search for the shards in the feudal era and pursuing her school studies in the present." That way we would both be right. Part of wikipedia is to build on the knowledge of others, not attack them for not knowing the full details. I once came across an article in which the most recent contributor had raised an important point but got some of the details wrong. I didn't just hit "undo", I actually went to the trouble of correcting these details and noting the sources. I didn't offend him by undoing his work, I simply corrected it. Why can't we do this here?--Marktreut (talk) 19:50, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Because it doesn't belong there. Period. The manga is the primary work. Minor irrelevant bits and still your worthless opinions do not belong on the article. The series NEVER states "she faces anything" you are presuming based on your view. When you stop adding your made up BS to articles, maybe they will be retained, but thus far all you do is add your personal analysis and view points which have no actual basis in reliable source nor the primary sources. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:01, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Given that it occurs in a number of episodes I would hardly describe it as "Minor irrelevant bits" and there are articles which raise the differences between how a cartoon or film version of a story differs from the canon.--Marktreut (talk) 21:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

A "number" is extremely euphamistic considering the number of episodes versus the length of the series. They are minor, irrelevant bits, minor enough that the characters themselves were removed by consensus. Raising MAJOR differences (which actual reliable sources, not just Marktreut's observations), is far different from raising minor ones that, in reality, have absolutely no bearing on the story at all. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:29, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

But such episodes do occur quite frequently, especially in the early part of the series. They illustrate Kagome's frustration at having to save the feudal era on the one hand and keeping up with her studies on the other. Shows a responsible attitude. Something really irrelevant would be pointing out the somewhat absurd fact she is always wearing that silly schoolgirl uniform, whereas some proper travelling clothes would be more to the point.--Marktreut (talk) 18:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Frequency is in the eye of the beholder and they are not that frequent. And no, they don't illustrate anything except apparently to you. They are filler and comedic relief at best. It doesn't show a responsible attitude that she occasionally goes back and attempts to pretend to keep up wiht her school work. More amazing than her traveling in the school uniform is how she managed to pass with so little school attendance despite the rigors of the Japanese education system. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 19:22, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Re: user:IceAge2:TheMeltdown

I'm not sure their redirects are valid deletes (you'll need to prove socking first, which is a tricky point for quick CSD). Why not just keeping them as redirects? They seem harmless (?) Materialscientist (talk) 22:20, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

He is a banned user. The socking is already proved by his own actions and by a quick look at the parent's sock (notice a trend? IceAge this, that, and the other). A check user is not needed, its very clear and obvious. He does this repeatedly. The redirects are not "harmless", they are edits by a banned editor and only one is a reasonably search term (the rest are disambigs). CSD and ban are clear, edits by blocked sockpuppets should be deleted. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 22:31, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not questioning socking. Please take your time and explain me what's so bad with those redirects? Materialscientist (talk) 22:35, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, he is a banned editor, period. The redirects are useless and not plausible typos. This seems like a clear issue of needing to block, delete, and move on. Why you are making this into a huge production, I do not understand, much less why you are giving him time to vandalize some more. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 22:43, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

You know, spending too long at AIV spoils our souls .. Smile :-) and calm down please. Rollbacking is just one click, a block can't really be "reverted" - that's why. Many hate WP for this. Materialscientist (talk) 22:47, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Its not like he is a new editor or misguided. He's been at this for months. I'm calm, just confused at the response. 23:09, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

No slight to you - you are boiling in this topic and see hints where I don't - its just too easy for an admin to make a mistake at AIV, and many do. I was going to delete those redirects, but its not that straightforward - they are not that implausible - when you type a string in search window you see the choices. Yes, maybe disambigs are better, but anyway, it takes some time to figure out deletion with those tags on those redirects. Merely setting up those disambigs is not vandalism. Cheers. Materialscientist (talk) 23:14, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

He is a vandal. Period. Doing some "okay" edits while also vandalizing does not make him less so. His other edits were vandalism, as usual. Evading blocks is vandalism. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:15, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

As you're making a strong statement (potential indef to a user), you'll have to prove it. I asked the user to talk first at their talkpage before any further edit. Materialscientist (talk) 23:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Its already proven, even if you haven't followed the trail. I'm sure he appreciates you AGFing, but in this case it is sorely misplaced. There i no question as to who he is. He is as easily identifiable as Bambifan101. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:53, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Also this user was redirecting the faux "Ice Age: Th4w" to Ice Age film series. There's no such thing as "Ice Age" Th4f", and until and if an Ice Age 4 is announced, then there should not be any kind of redirects, esp for fake titles/articles. Is there any chance that this user is Babifan? --Mike Allen 23:40, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

No, this one is a separate vandal. I usually call him the "fake sequel" vandal, because he does that a lot, mostly with anything with dinosaurs and B-movies (other favorite targets are the Carnosaur articles and the Maneater series articles). He's officially identified by the A name because the original believed parent was too old to confirm. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:53, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Collectonian. I know you get way more than your fair share of crazy vandals in the segment of articles you edit. For this particular vandal, can you please give me some more information about why you think this is him? I'm just not seeing it at a glance; perhaps a SPI would be a better avenue? Kuru 00:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

*sigh* This is really getting crazy. Scratte has been created multiple times by his socks, his edits to Ice Age "Th4f" are consistent with his multiple socks, the user name is dead on with all the rest, and his edits to Carnosaur to add a fake film sequel are consistent with his other sock edits as well. SPI has already been done before confirming the initial batch. New ones really are not needed. I realize he is not as infamous as deer-boy, but he is still very consistent. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:41, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Since this seems to be a contentious issue all of a sudden, I've filed a new SPI to confirm all the known socks, including this one, and maybe we can get a range block out of it. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:49, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

That's exactly what I was looking for. I had checked the deleted history of several of the articles created, but not all the way to the one at Scratte. That article being created twice before by the scokpuppeter, along your general observations, is certainly enough for me. Just as unsolicited advice, if you're wanting to use AIV to block socks you may want to include some direct information about why; other than just suspicions. Otherwise, SPI is your best bet to start with. Maybe a userpage with some history would help; certainly not necessary, but it would help admins unfamiliar with every fruitcake theme vandal out there. :) Kuru 01:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

With him, I usually just note he is another of the socks, with the original's username, which is usually enough. Was surprised at all the response for this one. :) Guess it was time for a fresh SPI...and at least reminded me that the first one needed moving to the right name. :-P -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:14, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I should have known a name like "IceAge2:TheMeltdown" that something was not right. The worst part is, that these vandals are probably adults. Just tragic, just simply tragic. :-S --Mike Allen 01:29, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Re: Serialization template

Seeing as how the thread kind of died, I don't see any more reason to respond there until I try to get the ball rolling, but I do not have experience making a template of this design, and am unsure I would be able to make a suitable one without help or without an example already laid out for me that I could copy. I was wondering if you could give me some advice on where to start, and I would also like your input on the template's design. I think going with what's at Shojo Beat would be okay for the first version, and then I can post another thread on WT:ANIME to get more people involved after that. About the design, would you think that adding in the kanji/romaji would be helpful (as is such at Weekly Shōnen Magazine), or should that normally be left out? Also, would the color-coding found at Shojo Beat still be viable, or would there be a better way of visually representing series that are still ongoing?--十八 01:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm...I suspect getting Dino involved to help with the templating code would be a good idea. He's really good with that stuff :) I think the kanji/romaji should be left to the main articles rather than including them in the lists for the magazine, as they are not necessary to understanding the topic and would just make the template more cluttered, though it could be an optional thing for Japanese only magazines. The SB format and coloring seemed to be okay for the FAC, so I'd say start there and then tweak as we look at other articles to be cleaned up? -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:35, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Benedictus books

For what it's worth, I've been through almost all of the articles about books by David Benedictus that you prodded, and I think most of the prods are good. If I found squat for coverage, I supported the prod. If I found one or two reviews, I left it alone. I only removed the prods for the ones where there were several reviews or other significant coverage. The big surprise was the antiques book, which I fully expected to find nothing on. The only one I'm still researching is his autobiography. --RL0919 (talk) 02:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

PRODs

From WP:PROD: "If anyone, including the article creator, removes a {{prod}} tag from an article, do not replace it, even if the tag was apparently removed in bad faith.". Everyone has the right to remove a prod tag, even vandals and socks. So long as the removal is not vandalism in itself, then the removal stands. Yes, the article is unlikely to survive an AfD, however, that's not for us to judge, if the prod is contested, then it must go to AfD. By the way, sorry I didn't notify you, my brain hasn't been operating particularly well today.
Kindest regards, Spitfire 16:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Where then?

Hi, I recently made a post on the policy page looking for an adviser for a site I'm working on. You took it down (no problem -- I understand why). Can you recommend a better place to ask the same question? Preceden (talk) 21:01, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure there really is a good place, as that isn't the point of Misplaced Pages. At best, maybe Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Computing. MediaWiki's site is the software site, which might be a better place. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:41, 14 December 2009 (UTC)