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Revision as of 02:57, 9 October 2009

GA Review

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I'll be reviewing this article shortly. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   I've done a decent copyedit for dropped articles and verb tenses, but it wouldn't be hurt by a further copyedit or three if the plans are for it to go to FAC. I've noted below a few spots where it is unclear and needs some clarification

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   A few spots need citations

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Specific concerns

• Overall - I'm noticing a huge number of articles (a, an, the) being dropped. I've fixed the ones in "Background" but you should be aware this is a problem with your prose. Leaving them out makes the prose choppy. Also a number of verb tenses were in present tense, when it is much more normal to use past tense in historical writing in English. Again, I've fixed when I could, but just be aware.
• Lead -
  • Doesn't necessarily have to be done, but a bit more information in the lead might not be bad. The lead feels a bit skimpy to me. Perhaps a sentence on the fact that the war itself sprang out of the undefined borders?
• Background -
  • ".... signed in July 1920 between Lithuania and the Soviet Russia..." was it the USSR yet? the "the" before Soviet is awkward, but I'm not sure it's correct to remove it, perhaps a reword to leave off the Soviet or to put in USSR (or whatever the name was at that point..)
• Pressure -
  • "The Lithuanian government accepted the resolution. Sapieha replied that Poland could honor the Lithuanian neutrality or the demarcation line as Lithuania was actively collaborating with the Soviets. The Poles reserved the right of full freedom of action." I'm confused by these sentences, especially the second one. I can't figure out what it's trying to say that the poles could have done and why.
• Negotiations -
  • "The Polish leader, Józef Piłsudski, feared that the Entente..." what's the Entente? It's not been discussed previously, and it's not linked, so it's a complete unknown to the reader.
  • Need a cite for "The Lithuanians hoped to avoid new Polish attacks and, with help of the League, to settle the disputes."
• Provisions -
  • Okay, I'm confused here. It says "...it was to have taken effect..." which implies the agreement never went into effect. If it did take effect, it should say "...it took effect on..."
• Aftermath -
  • "Even in the 21st century, the Suwałki Region remains home to the Lithuanian minority in Poland." is it the ONLY home of lituanians in Poland or is it one of several spots of lithuanians? If the latter, it should read "Even in the 21st century, the Suwałki Region remains home to a Lithuanian minority." or "Even in the 21st century, the Suwałki Region remains home to one of the concentrations of Lithuanians in Poland." or something similar. the current wording implies that it is the only spot of lithuanians in poland. Should have a citation also.
  • Same deal with "In the 21st century, the Vilnius Region is the home to the Polish minority in Lithuania."
  • The last three sentences of the second paragraph of Aftermath need a citation (the "puppet republic" is an opinion on the status of the mutineer's republic and should be attributed to someone.
• Evaluations -
  • "These differences of opinion continue to modern historiography." is uncited and definitely needs some sort of elaboration. Is it split on Lithuanian/Polish lines?

I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:44, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello Ealdgyth. I'd like to second the request for more time. You can see that the LT editors have not been very active for whatever reasons. Clearly you would be completely justified in saying that as long as they remain inactive this article could be considered stable and uncontested.

As you can imagine, this topic is difficult, it's the capital of a country. I don't see it as completely neutral. One point at issue has been how to present the historic interpretations of the treaty. As currently written it looks as tho the did-this-treaty-include-Vilnius issue is unsettled and that historians still ponder both sides of the question. My research on the other hand indicates that only P. Lossowski argues for the Polish side. At some point there were a lot of other historians' takes ref'd in this article. A partial list:

The question of whether the treaty was meant to include Vilnius is not split between PL-LT lines; it's split, by my research, between LT-Encyclopedia Britannica-multiple other historians and Polish lines. My question to you is - how would you weight the conglomeration of EB's "The League of Nations arranged a partial armistice (Oct. 7, 1920) that put Vilnius under Lithuanian control and called for negotiations to settle all the border disputes." and those of all the others I've found against Lossowki's? No, EB doesn't directly say "most historians see it this way" - you'd think tho that it's implicit. I brought this point up during the course of a discussion in August at the OR noticeboard , August 2009, but not surprisingly no further involvement here. It would maybe be ugly to include the umpteen book cites on the treaty-left-Vilnius-to LT side - I feel tho that Piotrus has had enough time to gather other international historians' opinions supporting Lossowski's. Novickas (talk) 22:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. State briefly (without reams of footnotes, etc) what the problem is, etc. If the article is bound up in the whole EE mailing list problem, I'll be bringing in help to sort the whole thing out. But I'm not sure what exactly is being disputed here. My understanding, from the article, was that whether or not the agreement included Vilnius was not really up for debate, but that the exact significance of the agreement in history WAS up for debate. Correct me if I'm wrong? Ealdgyth - Talk 22:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Ugh... The only reference that actually compares historiography is focussed on whether it was an "international treaty" or just "military agreement of limited scope". The debate about Vilnius is more Misplaced Pages made up than anything else. Explicitly the ageement said absolutely nothing about Vilnius (that's what Lossowski stresses). Implicitly it was left where it was -- in Lithuanian hands (that's what Encyclopedia Britannica & all other references below say). Rather simple. Renata (talk) 22:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

That's a good summary, so if you want to boldly put that in the article... No, my objection isn't related to the mailing list issue. We've been discussing/editing this article for a long time. The body of the article is in good shape, just that the lead and summation/historiography could IMO use some more discussion. The GA review is time-sensitive, so if I'm not here later, never mind. Novickas (talk) 00:08, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that some scholars who apparently didn't bother to read the treaty (or don't pay attention to details of wording) and who try to summarize the treaty on 1-2 sentences (thus likely didn't research the matter of little importance to them, and copy the error from one another) often tend to write that the treaty left Vilnius in Lithuania (which is incorrect, because as Renata pointed out, the treaty didn't address that issue - it's like saying that the treaty left New York with the United States...). Some editors however try to argue that if enough scholars make an error the error is the truth and should be presented as such in the article :( The issue is somewhat compounded by the fact that the only detailed study of the treaty cited (book chapter by Łossowski) is in Polish (and English literature on the subject consists of the mentioned 1-2 sentence summaries). So we have the treaty text (linked but obviously ORish) and a detailed study in Polish versus a series of erroneous summary descriptions in English. Bottom line is that the treaty was about Suwałki Region, not Vilnius Region. It said nothing about Vilnius, and speculations about implicitility are not encyclopedic (to say the least). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:49, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Folks, the edit warring on the lead information is not helping with the GAN status here. If the issue doesn't resolve itself soon, I'm going to have to conclude the article isn't stable and fail it. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Reference section

1. Rawi Abdelal (2001). National Purpose in the World Economy: Post-Soviet States in Comparative Perspective. Cornell University Press. At the same time, Poland acceded to Lithuanian authority over Vilnius in the 1920 Suwalki Agreement.
2. Glanville Price (1998). Encyclopedia of the Languages of Europe. Blackwell Publishing. In 1920, Poland annexed a third of Lithuania's territory (including the capital, Vilnius) in breach of the Treaty of Suvalkai of 7 October 1920, and it was only in 1939 that Lithuania regained Vilnius and about a quarter of the territory occupied by Poland.
3. David James Smith (2002). The Baltic States. Routledge. Fighting continued until the agreement at Suwalki between Lithuania and Poland on 7 October, 1920, which drew a line of demarcation which was incomplete but indicated that the Vilnius area would be part of Lithuania {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthor= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
4. Xenia Joukoff Eudin (1957). Soviet Russia and the West, 1920-1927. Stanford University. The League effected an armistice, signed at Suwalki, October 7, 1920, by the terms of which the city was to remain under Lithuanian jurisdiction. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
5. Alfonsas Eidintas (1999). Lithuania in European Politics. Macmillan. The Lithuanians and the Poles signed an agreement at Suwalki on October 7. Both sides were to cease hostilities and to peacefully settle all disputes. The demarcation line was extended only in the southern part of the front, to Bastunai. Vilnius was thus left on the Lithuanian side, but its security was not guaranteed. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
6. Hirsz Abramowicz (1999). Profiles of a Lost World: Memoirs of East European Jewish Life Before World War II. Wayne State University Press. Before long there was a change of authority: Polish legionnaires under the command of General Lucian Zeligowski 'did not agree' with the peace treaty signed with Lithuania in Suwalki, which ceded Vilna to Lithuania. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
7. Michael Brecher (1997). A Study of Crisis. University of Michigan Press. Mediation by the League Council led to an agreement on the 20th providing for a cease-fire and Lithuania's neutrality in the Polish-Russian War; Vilna remained part of Lithuania. The (abortive) Treaty of Suwalki, incorporating these terms, was signed on 7 October. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
8. Raymond Leslie Buell (2007). Poland - Key to Europe. Alfred Knopf, republished by Read Books. Clashes subsequently took place with Polish troops, leading to the armistice at Suwalki in October 1920 and the drawing of the famous Curzon Line under League mediation, which allotted Vilna to Lithuania.
9. George Slocombe (1970). Mirror to Geneva. Ayer Publishing. Zeligowski seized the city in October, 1920, in flagrant violation not only of the Treaty of Suwalki signed by Poland and Lithuania two days earlier, but also of the covenant of the newly created League of Nations.