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Revision as of 01:37, 2 October 2009 editBaseball Bugs (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers126,954 edits →Non productive remarks at the Reference desk← Previous edit Revision as of 01:40, 2 October 2009 edit undoFranamax (talk | contribs)18,113 edits →Non productive remarks at the Reference desk: modifying, will explain shortlyNext edit →
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:: Not at all likely. I'm not sure who "LC" is, but BaseballBugs has a large number of edits dating back to mid 2007. A large portion of these edits are useful edits. ] (]) 01:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC) :: Not at all likely. I'm not sure who "LC" is, but BaseballBugs has a large number of edits dating back to mid 2007. A large portion of these edits are useful edits. ] (]) 01:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
:::I am no one's sock. Nor does "LC" ring a bell (except maybe a cowbell). That reminds of this one, supposedly a true story: Howard Cosell and Bob Uecker were broadcasting a ball game, and the the walking lexicon Cosell used the word "truculent" and then teased Uecker as to whether he knew what it meant. Uecker came right back with, "If you had a truck, and I borrowed it, that would be a truck-you-lent." →] <sup>'']''</sup> ] 01:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC) :::I am no one's sock. Nor does "LC" ring a bell (except maybe a cowbell). That reminds of this one, supposedly a true story: Howard Cosell and Bob Uecker were broadcasting a ball game, and the the walking lexicon Cosell used the word "truculent" and then teased Uecker as to whether he knew what it meant. Uecker came right back with, "If you had a truck, and I borrowed it, that would be a truck-you-lent." →] <sup>'']''</sup> ] 01:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
::LC is Lightcurrent and if they've progressed to that level, that would be an awesome achievement. Baseball Bugs is well-known across the wiki, or at least at ] where his contributions have sometimes been addressed in a similar vein as at this venue. :) I rather think he's done it all by himself. ] (]) 01:29, 2 October 2009 (UTC) ::LC is <redacted troll food> and if they've progressed to that level, that would be an awesome achievement. Baseball Bugs is well-known across the wiki, or at least at ] where his contributions have sometimes been addressed in a similar vein as at this venue. :) I rather think he's done it all by himself. ] (]) 01:29, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
:::I missed a space in the uname and the list is by no means comprehensive, but LC is . Not Bugs-y at all. ] (]) 01:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC) :::I missed a space in the uname and the list is by no means comprehensive, but LC is . Not Bugs-y at all. ] (]) 01:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
:::(ec){{Userlinks|Lightcurrent}} That one vaguely rings a bell, but I don't know from where. As my page says, or used to say (I haven't looked at it lately), I am "my own" sockpuppet, i.e. sometimes the evil side comes out, but always under this one name: →] <sup>'']''</sup> ] 01:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC) :::(ec)<redacted troll food, yeah, that one> That one vaguely rings a bell, but I don't know from where. As my page says, or used to say (I haven't looked at it lately), I am "my own" sockpuppet, i.e. sometimes the evil side comes out, but always under this one name: →] <sup>'']''</sup> ] 01:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:40, 2 October 2009

Shortcut

fixing the shortcut link

{{editprotected}} please delete the lines 3-4 of tis header: I have a neon lightbulb that spells my name , I want to hook it up, what do I need?


These lines create a shortcut link back to the page in question, which overlaps with the edit link if first-section edit links are enabled.

This request is paired with a request on Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk/header/leftside which adds a conventional shortcut box into the subtemplate. -Us_talk:Ludwigs2|Ludwigs2]] 05:16, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done. Let me know if anything needs changing. —  (MSGJ · talk) 13:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Header for the Computing Reference Desk

Can we tell posters to specify their operating system, computer make and model, and web browser in their posts? I just wasted 15 minutes giving advice to someone before I realized he was probably using Firefox (by his use of the word bookmarks instead of favorites). My advice was written for someone using Internet Explorer. This isn't the first time this has happened to me. We're not talking to these people in person. We wait hours for them to respond. We need to know all the details of their problem up front.--Best Dog Ever (talk) 05:48, 12 September 2012(UTC)

mobile accessibility

It was noted on RD:Talk that the refdesk header's floating elements had visual conflict with the iOS browser. Can this be addressed? SamuelRiv (talk) 22:01, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Removed text from top of Entertainment Desk

I removed this edit which had been made at the top of

Side by side search fields

This may be the wrong place to write this, but I am having difficulty tracing through all the RefDesk Header templates. Recently (noticed 2013-01-13) the header has changed to the RefDesk pages. The Search Misplaced Pages and Search archives fields in (say) RefDeskMaths are now side by side and often cause the page width to exceed 100% requiring sideways scrolling as well as vertical scrolling. Could someone put them one after the other vertically. -- SGBailey (talk) 22:11, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Add shortcuts to Reference desk Language

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I've add these shortcuts to Reference Desk Language and want it to show in the header:

--Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions) 13:04, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Unprotected. There were only a few transclusions of this template and all of the subtemplates, so I've reduced the protection to semi-protection on all of them. Best — Mr. Stradivarius 13:18, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

article gripes

Along with the "We will not answer" section, there ought to be a line like "This is not the place to suggest improvements to a Misplaced Pages article; each article has a discussion page for that purpose." —Tamfang (talk) 08:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


Removal of question "‎Ideas for what to get a good friend of mine for her birthday"

I hope this is works for justification. The poster is a currently active troll and doxxer on RationalWiki, particularly with the personal details of the person they named in this particular Reference Desk question, and had left several links to this page from a page on RationalWiki. Please let me know if this is not sufficient justification, or if an alternate route must be taken to keep this removed. Thanks. Noir LeSable (talk) 21:49, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Shoot, wrong talk page. Please disregard. Noir LeSable (talk) 21:55, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Edit request (minor); 01:38, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

First of all, pardon my ignorance if this is not the proper method for requesting the following:
The instruction section of this header states: We'll answer here within a few days -- This might give the wrong impression; it typically takes only a few minutes; an hour or two at the most. Therefore, my request is that this be modified (at the editor's discretion). --107.15.152.93 (talk) 01:38, 21 June 2016 (UTC) (modified:01:41, 21 June 2016 (UTC))

Layout problem

...related to vertical positioning of the "skip to bottom" item in the right column. See Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk#Protection-template spacing. DMacks (talk) 22:42, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Topics are not desks

The list below "Choose a topic:" is not a list of topics. The addition of "desk" to each topic should be removed. Additionally, the different sections of the Reference desk are not separate desks; they are different sections of one Reference desk. So unless there are serious objections, I'll proceed to replace "Computing desk" by "Computing", etcetera.  --Lambiam 07:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

"Choose" or "Select"?

I think "Select a topic:" is more appropriate terminology for the navigation column. "Choose" would be better for someone not having a concrete question but seeking a chat room to hang out in that suits their interests; here there is already an issue and the question is which section of the RD is appropriate.  --Lambiam 07:49, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Where are the recent archives???

I've just tried to look for questions archived from early November, and they are nowhere to be found -- the archives only run through October, and there are no recently archived questions here! So what happened, and where are they??? 2601:646:9882:46E0:C195:DC40:D019:40A6 (talk) 07:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean? Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Archives/Science/November 2023 exists, so do others. Which specific page are you having a problem with? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:38, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
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Is the reference desk now a joke site and a chatroom

(Not 'begging the question' but a complaint)

How about we change the intro to "Users leave questions on the reference desk and Misplaced Pages volunteers work to help you find the information you need ignore them and chat amongst themselves whislt making wisecracks"

The computing, maths, and science desk don't seem to suffer from this problem.83.100.250.79 (talk) 13:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

If the question has been dealt with or seriously attempted, there is no real problem with having a bit of fun surrounded by <small></small> tags. But some of those examples you listed (and I've noticed quite a few others) are worrisome and I think we should be taking our OPs and their queries seriously. We appear to have crossed a line somewhere if this kind of thing is considered acceptable. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 14:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I feel like I might be becoming a nuisance, always referring to older threads, but this thread has an earlier discussion on the topic. I agree with 83.100 that a wave of jokes has been flooding some of the desks recently, and I admit that I'm not a fan of reading joke answers before anyone even attempted to answer the question. Break's over, deskians, let's get back to work. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
While the Reference Desk can be an awesome resource, the "witty" side comments, in-jokes and other nonsense is getting too much, and this is not a new problem either. I've seen questioners getting really angry at this sort of thing in the past, only to be told that Misplaced Pages is a free resource run by volunteers as if that's some sort of excuse for people ignoring the purpose of the Reference Desk and engaging in their own banter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avrillyria (talk • contribs) 14:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Hear hear. And while we're at it, can we please make an effort to refer to sources (WP pages, or outside) in our answers. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Considering that our primary purpose is to provide references, I think that is a very good idea. Although it's a lot of fun to provide answers in general out of our own experience and expertise, we all need to work on citing sources. Nimur (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I totally agree!10draftsdeep (talk) 15:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
I consider links to previous discussions on a topic to be very helpful in resolving an issue. Thanks! --Sean 13:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree that we sometimes veer off-topic a little too quickly. To be fair, though, the Caesar tribune question was at least succinctly and swiftly answered before things went off-sides. It's easy to go overboard on this kind of stuff, especially in an environment like WP, where we strive to be neutral and to maintain the proper tone at all times while editing articles; all the more temptation to let loose a bit where the rules are more lenient. I'm not sure what can be done about this other than self-policing, maybe the occasional comment on a user talk page or something. Matt Deres (talk) 01:18, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
I concur that the signal-to-noise ratio has gotten worse, though I think some amount of side discussions relevant to the question are useful to the OP in seeing other facets of the issue. My comment here, for example, does not answer the question directly, and I had doubts about posting it, but I decided that it improves the overall response and I stand by it. Straight-up joke comments that do not contribute to the answer -- and I'm thinking of one RD regular in particular -- should be reined in. --Sean 13:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Whom? 90.208.66.97 (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it's best not to make this thread about one person. --Sean 15:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
We all know who. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:49, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't. That's why I asked. (I'm fine with Sean's response.) 90.208.66.97 (talk) 21:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Jiminy Cricket ? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I too have indulged in the occasional lame jest (all I'm capable of, I fear) at the ref desks; but even more often I've given the matter a second thought and restrained myself from posting a witticism that seemed apt and hilarious at the time—particularly when it would have been the first response to a question. I agree that we all need to be somewhat circumspect in giving free rein to our senses of humor in this forum, and that a little more professionalism and a little less waggery (as well as a little less blind speculation in place of sourced answers—something I've also caught myself in) would not be a bad idea. Deor (talk) 21:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

One thing that would help is if the questioner would come back and mark it "resolved" or even just say "thank you", and that would end it. Some do, but often they don't, and they leave themselves open to rambling by many editors, not just moi. When information is posted with no acknowledgment, as often happens, there's no way to know if that's truly what the questioner wanted to know, unless it's as obvious as the nose on your face, which it often is not. Baseball Bugs carrots 22:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Trouble is that many of our questioners don't know how to mark things as resolved, and in any case, we are a volunteer service function, so it's not really for us to expect such things. And in many cases, I've seen relevant information get added after the OP has given thanks (and sometimes I've seen them come back and thank again). So long as the answers are relevant to the OP question, it's hard to ever say that a thread is "resolved", unless it's an open-and-shut "read our article" answer (and the respondent has actually checked our article to be sure the answer is really there). And sometimes threads include an interesting fork too. Franamax (talk) 22:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
They don't have to literally use the "resolved" template, they could use normal editing to say "thank you", and then a regular visitor could post the "resolved" template, which does not preclude adding more info, but it suggests that the OP feels like he got the info he needed. Baseball Bugs carrots 22:42, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Sure, it's nice when they say thank you, but I still don't see the purpose of the "resolved" template. It's really a decision of the individual responder: do you thjink that the question has been adequately dealt with, or do you think you have something pertinent to add? If you think the OP has already been answered, then don't add anything (especially not just because you feel like you should comment on every thread). If you have something new to add, do it (but please people, actually read the previous responses so we don't end up with a series of identical answers). If you feel the need to add something witty, which will usually be a response to one of the regular's answers or comments, do it in small and double-indent to make it clear that it's not intended as a serious addition. In all these cases, individual restraint and self-editing is the key. We don't need formal structures if we all exercise our own inner voices telling us "time to shut up now". :) Franamax (talk) 22:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Obviously we can't control what the questioner does. Maybe the "resolved" template is overkill, although I've seen it used a few times. In any case, the questions get archived within a week or so, whether they get answered or not. I think the most recent use of "resolved" was when that one guy posted yet another quiz question and another user (not I) said DO NOT ANSWER in big bold letters and marked it "resolved" or "done" or something. I don't see a big problem with adding comments that restate previous comments, i.e. to reinforce those comments - or, of course, to contradict previous comments if necessary. Baseball Bugs carrots 23:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I can see the rationale for using a "resolved" template in the case you describe as a hint to others not to keep on answering. It's always amazing to see the first responder say "we don't do homework", then other earnest editors come along and do the homework anyway. But I think the better response when you definitely want the discussion to end is to use either a collapse box ({{hidden begin}}/{{hidden end}}) or to remove the question altogether, leaving an explanation with a pointer to the RefTalk discussion and a back-pointer on your RefTalk thread to your removal diff. This gets the point across a little more smoothly than banner headlines.
And I'm not talking so much about reinforcing previous comments, what I see all too often is clear evidence that the responder didn't even bother to read the previous activity in the thread, they read the original question and blindly clicked "edit" to get their own comment in. Like when the first answer points to a source, then the fith answer points to the exact same source as if it's a new contribution. I don't see how this is respectful of the OP's time reading the answer to their question, nor to the efforts of the previous respondents. A good example is when the first answer is "we don't do homework" and then someone else answers the question without outlining why they don't think it's a homework question. We all need to work together to ensure coherence in our responses. Of course though, if you have a contrary answer, post away. But as pointed out, we digress... Franamax (talk) 01:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Resolved and unresolved

Since the discussion is now veering off the "joke room" topic, let me subhead it.

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I haven't been entirely sure how to react when a question's considered resolved, sometimes with a sticker, and others (sometimes including the original enquirer) praise the answers, but upon second thoughts I think my own answer might have been significantly deficient or insufficiently responsive (e.g. a recent question on the Miscellaneous Ref. Desk about the reality if any behind the 1930's German "stab in the back" legend; not that my answer was wrong or irrelevant, and in fact it drew unsolicited third-party praise on my talk page, but it might have been rather incomplete and not directly responsive). Would an "Unresolved" template (distinct from the various "unresolved dispute" tags) be useful? —— Shakescene (talk) 23:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

An interesting idea - like the big question-mark template that's used in WP:ANI sometimes? Baseball Bugs carrots 23:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I recall having seen some big arguments at the WP:HELP desk about using templates at all, since they take up space both in wiki-text and page-load time, and there were questions about their overenthusiastic/premature use.
What I use at WP:VPT, when I'm sure that I've clearly resolved a question (i.e. when the OP says "thanks, I tried that and it works perfectly!") is my own short markup, stolen from the tomb of the unknown Wikipedian :) :
✓ Resolved. Editor wasn't using a computer to access Misplaced Pages. Franamax (talk) 01:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Shakescene, in your own example where you decided that your own answer was insufficient, I'd suggest prefacing your followup with:
✗ Wait, I wasn't clear enough before!
Here's what I should have said...
I still think that use of formal templates at the top of a thread can be problematic in several ways. But these are just thinking-thoughts, not proposed solutions. Franamax (talk) 01:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Not long ago, adding resolved tags came up on the Help Desk's talk page. While I felt that the person who brought it up was being purposely obtuse, I think that reading though the conversation there may be pertinent here. -- kainaw™ 01:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I think Fuhgettaboutit's comments of 01:25 16Apr09 are most apropos to the situation on our desks here. Plus they linked to the even earlier discussion I was thinking of, which is where I got the idea for my condensed markup which uses up hardly any bytes - so I see now that mine is actually original art. World, upon thee I bestow my inestimable gift! :) Franamax (talk) 01:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

"Seriously, this isn't a chat room" template

Per the discussion above, I have created Template:Refdeskchatty, which can be dropped on user talk pages as a gentle nudge towards reining in the recent chat room tendencies. I believe this template should be used sparingly, and only in the most egregious cases. --Sean 17:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Let the template bombing begin (just joking). Hopefully fear will prevent its ever needing to be used. Thanks.83.100.250.79 (talk) 22:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
I think the text in the template in reasonable, but I'm not generally in favour of templating stuff like this. In my experience, a personal message is less likely to be taken as an attack or to put the "target" in a defensive position. While I haven't gone through every single regular contributor, I'd be greatly surprised if there was a single one that didn't chat or joke at least once in a while. The problem really comes from the degree of chatting, not any individual instance (though joking about before the question has been answered at all would be close). What I'd like to avoid is A templating B the first time B cracks a joke that rubs A the wrong way, thus compelling B to template A (and possible C, D, and E, etc.) every time they provide a reply that isn't 100% germane to the question in their opinion. By keeping things personal and informal it's easier to everyone to remain positive - and nobody wants the black mark that a "naughty you" template gives. Just my $.02. Matt Deres (talk) 02:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree with this sentiment. I'd hate to see RD templates being used even once, warning/advice templates may seem benign, but IMO they're a pretty dismissive way of dealing with problems. We're all reasonable people here and to be successful on the RD's, you pretty much have to be able to express yourself well - so any notes about excessive or inappropriate kibitzing can just as easily be framed the same way.
I have kind of an impression of the editor identity Sean refers to above ("I'm thinking of one RD regular in particular" - "Whom?" - "I think it's best not to make this thread about one person" - does anyone else find that a bit ironic?) and I was thinking a day before this came up about dropping them a note. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have email enabled. We need to be very kind about this sort of discussion, unless it's clear trolling. I'm as guilty as anyone of dropping in <small> comments that seem funny to my own warped sense of the world. I'd always appreciate someone letting me know privately that they think I'm going too far, but I know that if I got a template on my talk page, I'd feel rather bruised. Polite notes is the way to go IMO. Franamax (talk) 04:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm as guilty at times as the next editor here , but I agree with the earlier point about the problem arising from the accumulation and extension of banter, rather than in any one individual aside or any one editor's behaviour. I don't like the idea of plastering the template on any individual's talk page, but a small, very mildly worded template for the Ref Desk thread itself might be helpful if posted at the point where the banter seems to be overtaking the original question (often, say after the second or third non-germane exchange). Not so much to criticise any one other editor's previous posts, but just to say it's time to stop or slow down the extraneous back-and-forth in favour of pondering (and hopefully actually answering) the original query. If worded generally enough, such a template could also be used to indicate that non-jocular discussions are moving off-track. e.g. a recent thread at the Language desk, when the inquirer asked if there was a word for the surrender of rights that accompanies military enlistment, which diverted into a polite but slightly-heated debate about whether military recruits surrender any more rights than new hires at a civilian job. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I think a separate but related problem is that OPs are not asked to try to stay involved in the ensuing responses to a question posed. Too many of these "questions" are little more than "stump the reference desk folks," or attempts to set off some sort of creative/intellectual response. I think that can get a little tiresome and tedious, although sometimes it is done well, and everybody is "refreshed" by it. I think that what I would like to say is that the use of the reference desk is a two-way street, involving responsibilities for civil discourse on both sides. I am probably not in favor of any "template" solutions but I will have to ask myself to find out. Bus stop (talk) 06:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
My initial thought on this is that no, we're a one way street. Part of sitting at a desk is that people come up and ask you stuff and at some point they go away. Sometimes they will do that in the middle of you answering the question, but that's just how life works. Sometimes they're just trying to piss you off. Doesn't matter, we choose to sit behind the desk, providing the service. Sometimes they actually say thanks. (And lots of people do say thanks here!) Basically, anyone who wants to try to provide answers here is first of all a servant. That's how I see it anyway, and I'm trying out a renewed emphasis on sourcing or w/linking my responses (but I know it won't last). Franamax (talk) 12:01, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
When I ask a question, I try to respond as little as possible. I'll answer clarifying questions, and I'll try and redirect if I think the answers are veering too far off course, but I try to stay out of it. I'm interested in what insight Ref Deskers have to offer, and my experience (here and elsewhere) is that when the OP keeps interjecting, the answers seem to trail off (unless the OP is being confrontational). That's really why I've never thanked the answerers* - if someone with a brilliant insight comes along at day seven, seeing a "Thanks!" may put them off responding because they think the question is over. The only safe time to add a thanks is after the question is archived ... but then no one sees it because the question is archived. (* So I'll do it here: "Thanks Ref Deskers! You've been a real help.") -- 128.104.112.179 (talk) 15:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Regarding your small text, my point was that while many of us might be thinking of one user in particular, there's no reason to think that it's the same user! As for templates vs. a hand-written response, my feeling is that because templates are less personal, dinging someone with one says "your post strays outside of community norms for this area of the site" rather than "I have enough of a personal problem with your post that I've taken the time to dig up links to these old discussions". I don't see much reason to debate it, though; just don't use it if you prefer a personal message. --Sean 14:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
And for this IE user, what you think is small text, however coded, is not small on my screen, but the same size as the rest of the text. Not everyone realizes you are doing anything except respond "factually" to the question, unless one looks at the edit page. // BL \\ (talk) 15:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm guessing that you have a relatively low-resolution monitor then. Unfortunately, there's no way to control how any particular browser chooses fonts and sizes when it renders HTML. (That's actually the point of HTML, it's context-independent and each end-point renders it however it thinks best.) The <small> notation is the best we can do, but that's why I try to double-indent my "joke" comments on the Desks themselves. Franamax (talk) 23:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Ouch! You've used a template to send a message to an experienced editor. Please review the essay Misplaced Pages:Don't template the regulars or maybe listen to a little advice. Doesn't this feel cold, impersonal, and canned? It's meant in good humour. Best wishes. ~~~~


I don't think WP:DTTR applies here. If an experienced user makes a silly mistake in article space and you respond by hitting them with {{Uw-test1}} (which, among other things, welcomes them) then they'd have reason to be offended. But if only 10% of a certain experienced refdesker's posts are actually helpful to the OP, then we can be reasonably sure that said desker isn't familiar with the "rules" and templating them is not so bad. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 16:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Planet colour guy

This sounds like the planet colour guy. If my answer isn't sufficient for him, I recommend deletion. --Tango (talk) 21:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Fixed the link for you. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Very well could be. I notice that he's asked Steve a question 'off desk' - that was one of PCG's hallmarks too, wasn't it? I seem to remember that Steve was getting quite irritated by it the last time it happened. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 21:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, he did the same with me - I got equally irritated. --Tango (talk) 21:32, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Then he's won. That's trolls' real aim - to piss people off. My advice: stay cool, and don't give in to the temptation to get irritated. Otherwise they win and we lose, yet we, and not they, have control over whether we allow this win-lose outcome to occur. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:05, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
This troll is heartbreaking. I think we can all agree that replacing the front page with "WILLY ON WHEEEEEEELS!!!!1!" is high comedy, but to troll a small handful of linguistics nerds with implausible unattested words is just pathetic. Get help, Planet Color Guy! --Sean 15:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand. Vimescarrot (talk) 19:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Think this is about person below - maybe they posted in the wrong section, or maybe they are the same, I don't know.?83.100.250.79 (talk) 23:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
No idea if this guy is a Willy-sock, but check out this page for some interesting reading regarding vandals and WP. Matt Deres (talk) 01:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I was just saying that at least Willy had ambition, which PCG seems to utterly lack. --Sean 04:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
What I meant was, I don't understand how this question is an issue. It's poorly phrased and not clear, but I don't understand how it's in any way problematic... Vimescarrot (talk) 14:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
It's not entirely clear to me, but I think people have been getting questions of a similar type where the user gets answers, but won't take them on board, and just re-asks the question in a different way later on.83.100.250.79 (talk) 15:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry to come into this a few days later: yes, the editor in question is PCG. For background, his account was indef blocked (across all Wikimedia projects, I believe) last year for a combination of community exhaustion for bad editing plus repeated personal threats to other users. Since his IP return, I've monitored his contribs, making sure he understands that 'pedia space is absolutely off-limits but allowing the RD as an outlet of sorts. However, I notice that there have been several comments of exasperation (as the one here) since -- is it time to enforce the block fully? I figure that, in light of the original block, I should have already made user talk off limits, and will do so the next time I notice him editing such. — Lomn 18:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Is this User:Freewayguy, by the way? That name comes to mind from your description of his history. Yes, I do remember interacting with him (if it's the same person) on this page before when he was trying to get himself unblocked. He's got some sort of mental health problem, IIRC. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 18:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, if memory serves that was one of his many aliases. --Tango (talk) 18:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's the account under which he was blocked. I'm not aware of other accounts, but he did switch signature styles several times a week. — Lomn 19:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
If it is the same guy - I'm not convinced that he's doing this in bad faith. I could imagine someone with some kind of obsessive/compulsive need to know everything possible - to understand every tiniest detail - within some narrowly focussed topic. Assuming good faith, therefore, I think it's important to be crystal clear with him that we aren't going to keep answering essentially the same question over and over again - and that when we're done answering, we're not going to entertain followup questions. But I don't think setting the admin's on him is justified unless/until we can prove that there is bad faith or explicit rule-breakage going on. This is a tricky one though - the guy can be annoying as all hell. SteveBaker (talk) 20:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I pretty much agree with that. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Is this a case where the "first responder" or "clued-in regular" could put a collapse box around the thread, with the title being "Answered, please do not respond further"? Plus notice here on the talk page. The nice thing about a collapse-box is that it takes things relatively off-line but doesn't erase them completely, and it avoids the awkwardness of "resolved" templates - where seemingly in this case the Q never actually gets resolved. Just a suggestion. Franamax (talk) 23:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
When I worked at a real life refdesk (in a bookstore), there was a guy who obviously had a piece missing who would come in at least once a week with an enormous and grubby printout of hundreds of books on cacti. These were not general-interest fare and there was basically no chance that we had a single one of them, which didn't dissuade him from asking about each one. You could tell who the new employees were because they didn't coincidentally have to take a bathroom break when "Cactus Guy" came through the door. --Sean 05:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Did you ever attempt to order the books for him? There was a guy a bit like that when I worked in Tandy's. Every single morning, he'd be out front from about 8am, waiting for the shop to open. Then he'd come in to buy a single AAA battery. He'd been doing it for years, apparently. I once made the mistake of asking him if he'd like me to order him a whole case of the things for him and he got really upset with me. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 01:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
In very VERY slight defense of this guy... I found his website once. He has a lot of pages that describe what it would be like to colonize other planets and goes into detail about what the temperature would be and what the place would look like (including colors). So, he isn't just being a complete ass. He is attempting to add information to his website. He simply doesn't "get it" when he gets an answer that he doesn't like. -- kainaw™ 16:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it's also the case that he'll re-ask some time later if he doesn't understand the answer given. He doesn't seem to like asking people to elaborate at the time, if you know what I mean. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 01:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Language desk questioner appears to be successful troll

see Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Language#Muimota Previous example Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2009_August_16#Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz and many other examples I cannot be bothered to find. The questioner had it made clear to them that we are not here to answer riddles previously.83.100.250.79 (talk) 21:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

e.g. , . Posts are from various IPs starting 88.77. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
There was another where they got asked to stop..
It's this that bemuses me - they already have two answers - one of which is nonsensical - why ask?83.100.250.79 (talk) 15:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
That's one of the IP's that keeps asking questions he already knows the answer to, just to pose a trivia quiz on a given ref desk. First time I saw one of those, about a-through-z, I thought it was a sincere question and tried to give a sincere answer. At some point it became obvious the IP was just jerking us around, and other users (not I) have threatened to have him range-blocked. Now that's taking things seriously. Baseball Bugs carrots 22:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
This guy is pretty puzzling. The questions he asks do seem generally like the kinds of things one would be asked in a linguistics class, but his examples are so bizarre that it makes me wonder. I do wish he'd explain himself... -Elmer Clark (talk) 22:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
If you follow the track of these kinds of questions he's been asking, it's perfectly clear that he already knows the answer and he's just playing games with those who initially thought his questions were sincere. Baseball Bugs carrots 22:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

User Baseball Bugs

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm archiving this. The subject editor has drawn their very own lineage underneath it. Time will tell if they are serious about responding to feedback or not. This thread represents a step in WP:DR, but it's not productive to continue at this time IMO. Franamax (talk) 01:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Acknowledge that it was that dastardly User:hydnjo drawing the moustache, not Bugs. :) Franamax (talk) 02:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I've already asked this editor twice to take the reference desk more seriously. This edit is the final straw for me. I've mentioned this on the editors talk page. To be honest this account is starting to look like it's main reason for existance is vandalism. That's my opinion.83.100.250.79 (talk) 13:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The editor won't listen to me, will someone else explain it to them please. 83.100.250.79 (talk) 13:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
To be bluntly honest, you are using an anon IP and you haphazardly deleted Toto Baggins' signature on his comment. So, asking me to take sides against someone who is using a user account, which allows me to see a history of edits attributed to the user, who has not decided to be sloppy with deleting other people's edits is a rather large request. This is not a case of anon IP bashing. It is a case of being able to view the history of edits between two users - one which has a clear history and the other does not. So, I'm left looking at the recent sloppy edits. -- kainaw™ 14:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Why don't you check my contributions? It's easy to to and yes it is an example of "anon IP bashing- what else is it?" I'm not aware I accidentally deleted any signature -where?83.100.250.79 (talk) 14:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
No I can't easily find these sloppy edits, (except where a page was blanked accidentally a few days ago) why not give the example, so I could fix it and apologise.83.100.250.79 (talk) 15:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I have been directly communicating to BaseballBugs on my talk page about this issue; moments after I started that discussion, the issue was reported to Administrator Noticeboard (I don't know who did that). I think we have made the point to Bugs. I hope he agrees that we can solve this issue without a block or any other administrator's intervention, but this really depends on how cooperative Baseball Bugs is willing to be. His contributions are sometimes helpful and are appreciated. However, he has continued to make disruptive joke commentary on the reference desk despite repeated discussions, messages, and eventually warnings. On my talk page, he brought up some valid concerns, but his repeated joke posts are breaking Misplaced Pages to make a point. I sincerely hope we can resolve this without needing a block. Edited from my earlier comment at the ANI Nimur (talk) 14:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

After being asked to stop, they do this. 83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I've asked them to discuss problems or issues on the talk page, and not to bring stuff up on the main reference desk pages.83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:28, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I count at least 5 behavioral complaints against the above IP address on his talk page. Assuming it's just one user and not a hundred, he needs to clean up his own act before attacking me. And he's also acting in a discriminatory/prejudicial way. The comment he cited above was in response to several off-topic comments by others. Yet I don't see him schlepping those guys here or to ANI. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I didn't report you to this page, I left a message on your talk page, and a message on the reference desk talk pages. What other editors do doesn't make what you do ok. Also if I get a complaint I try to improve. Why don't you do the same?
If I got those complaints and continued to do the same things and not try to improve I would have been banned a long time ago wouldn't I. So please stop suggesting that I should "clean up my act"83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Notice how the subject refuses to recognize the basic issue at hand. It is as if the defensive behavioral trait of blaming others for his actions is the default response. Is there a remedial action page that the user can be mentored at? Once denial is overcome, mentoring should be able to correct the undesirable editing traits. Perhaps a workshop could be setup that would reward correct behavior and lead the editor to be productive in the community. Erector Euphonious (talk) 16:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Hard telling whether you're talking about me or the IP, as your comments could apply to either one. P.S. What's your particular interest in the banned user Axmann8? Baseball Bugs carrots 16:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

What I do, everywhere, is raise question that I have not seen others raising. If you don't like the questions I raise, then ignore them. When someone raises a question on the help desk, it can lead to more questions, and more information. It can also lead to absurdity. Or a combination. Just try to do your best and I'll try to do my best. Ya dig? Baseball Bugs carrots 16:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Here, we again see a response to the inquiry, but denial seems to be firmly rooted. The change of topic and focus of blame on others seems to be firmly rooted if not an automatic response. Edit history seems to show this as a consistent response to any negative inquiries. Erector Euphonious (talk) 17:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The above user is an alleged newbie who seems to really know his way around, hence I have very little regard for his sincerity or his words. Even responding to him is a questionable practice on my part. Also note that while yelping about my alleged denials, he also avoids answering inquiries about himself. Baseball Bugs carrots 17:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Bugs, here is my suggestion. Stop any sarcastic remarks at the desk, I have not reviewed the edits listed here or at ANI, but I suggest you take another look at your editing style. Once you do so, there will be no issue, any further action by editors, IP socks, or not, will be in violation of our policies, and you can take action appropriately. Sephiroth storm (talk) 17:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Fine, I'll leave the sarcastic remarks to the other editors that the IP did not see fit to drag here. Baseball Bugs carrots 17:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I think the point Erector Euphonious is trying to make incidentally, does anyone imagine Attenborough's voice when reading the paragraphs in italics? is that you're attacking the individual instead of his argument. Which seems to be true. Vimescarrot (talk) 18:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Users who question the behavior of others, and then have their own behavior questioned in kind, often claim it's a "personal" attack. Baseball Bugs carrots 18:29, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Okay. So? Vimescarrot (talk) 18:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
So the guy just below (WTWAG) has the right sense of perspective. Baseball Bugs carrots 18:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Now we observe an uninvolved editor attempt to assist. Though the subject is approached in a completely non aggressive fashion, the instinctive denial response is immediate. Caution is the best approach in situations like this. It may just be that this behavior cannot be corrected through reason. Time should tell if reward and punishment are more effective in correcting the condition. Erector Euphonious (talk) 19:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Fer shur, and I want you to know that I do appreciate your attempt to assist. :) Baseball Bugs carrots 19:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Grow a sense of humor. Bugs is doing absolutely no harm. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I disagree. His constant unhelpful, sarcastic comments are detrimental to the Reference Desks, and are at times almost antagonistic to the point of trying to goad a reaction out of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avrillyria (talk • contribs) 22:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I've been a little concerned with this user's recent contributions as well. Humor on the Reference Desk is fine, but it should wait until the question has been answered - constantly responding to legitimate questions with (sometimes somewhat snarky) attempts at humor really hurts the Desk more than it helps. I was also very concerned by his apparently unilateral decision to remove this question, and his defense of his actions greatly increased my concerns rather than placating them. I see from your user contributions that you've been a (very) regular contributor to the Desks for many months, with quite a few helpful responses. It concerns me that you don't seem to have developed a very good sense of Desk etiquette in that time. I would suggest scaling things back and taking a more passive role for a little while, with an emphasis on getting a better feel for the general atmosphere here, while toning down on the jokes and leaving things like question removals to others. Again, it does seem like you're generally an asset to the Desks, but there are some things you need to address. -Elmer Clark (talk) 22:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Why the bloody L are you bringing that up here, when I already answered you on the other page? That question to me reads like he's hoping to find a certain type of victim to hate-crimes. You read it differently than I do. But that doesn't make you any better or smarter than I am. It's just how we see things. Baseball Bugs carrots 22:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Sure. Both interpretations are possible. In situations like that, the right response is to assume good faith and certainly is not to remove the question without discussion. And I was mentioning that mostly as an aside; I was mainly addressing the original subject of this posting, your many joke responses. -Elmer Clark (talk) 23:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Fine. I won't remove any other questions, no matter how offensive they seem. I'll leave that for you all, the experts in such things. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we should draw a line under this and close it for now. Bugs has had a few unfair shots taken at him but also some very good advice given. It's time now to see whether he takes the good advice on board. He's been pretty defensive, but it's hard to respond well when you feel that you're getting assaulted from all sides. Time will tell now. Bugs, FTR, you were indeeed the "certain editor" I was referring to above. There is a fine line between being mostly helpful and occasionally funny, and taking pleasure in seeing your own comments sitting on the thread while you congratulate yourself on your own brilliance. In my experience you're an intelligent editor and you will be able to take on board the valuable feedback you've gotten lately, and draw yourself back onto the right side of the line. Remember that if you have doubts about a thread, you can always come here for discussion on it. And please remember too that a bunch of us are touchy about responders treating our OP's badly, since it threatens our own ethos of why we participate here in the first place. And with that, can we all now give Bugs some space for a week or two? If he doesn't take the comments on board, we can always revisit this subject. Franamax (talk) 00:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

______________________________ line _______________________________ hydnjo (talk) 01:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

As you can see, we come from a long and distinguished line. Baseball Bugs carrots 01:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misplaced Pages Not Censored

I know that Misplaced Pages isn't censored. We basically all moderate it ourselves (those of us with common sense), but what about the stuff that we can't moderate, as in the internal workings of Misplaced Pages itself? I got this captcha the other day and I couldn't believe my eyes. Who writes these? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 16:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, but this doesn't seem to have anything to do with discussing the operation of the Reference Desks. --LarryMac | Talk 16:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I expect that is "heads" and "hits" combined at random. Larry is right, this has nothing to do with the ref desk, though. I suggest you file a bug on the saying the word "hits" (and "hit" if it is there) should be removed from the list of possible words (I think the captcha list is handled by the sysadmins, although I could be wrong). --Tango (talk) 16:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I knew this was the wrong place to bring it up, but of all the places I could think of, it was the 'most' appropriate out of them all. Couldn't think of anywhere else. And, of course I knew it wasn't deliberate and was a combination of two other (completely innocuous) words, but here an unfortunate combination was produced. I will do that, Tango, thanks. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 17:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
If you can't think of anywhere, then WP:VPM is a much better place than here. Algebraist 17:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Alternatively, the Misplaced Pages:Help desk is intended for people with questions about Misplaced Pages. --Tango (talk) 19:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
What happened to the 92-5=? type - were they too elitist?77.86.47.174 (talk) 00:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Too ineffective. Algebraist 02:22, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe anyone writes individual captcha's. They are generated by a pseudorandom generator in a program (that someone wrote). I think we must accept occasional "unfortunate" combinations as the price of the technology. Requiring both letters and numbers in captcha's will reduce such accidents, but not eliminate them. An example is PEN15 (which was once issued as a vehicle registration plate in the U.K.). Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I've seen this same discussion come up many times about this exact captcha. I don't know where to find exact links to the conversations, but it was decided that it was a combination of "heads" and "hits", and that there really isn't anything to do about it. It wasn't actually saying a "bad word", but you were looking for it. :) Some may not even notice. Besides, it's not viewed as an extremely offensive word, at least in the US. It's even allowed to be said on television. I wouldn't really worry about it. hmwith☮ 20:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Presumably there is a wordlist somewhere that these words come from. Just remove "hits" from the list and you are done. --Tango (talk) 23:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Computer Desk - Nonsense Removed

I just removed some content from the Computer desk. If there's any dispute about this, or if anyone thinks these might have been a legitimate question/response edit, please restore it. Nimur (talk) 17:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a legitimate (homework-based) question, but a useless response. I'll restore the question. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
That's one of the most bizzare responses I've ever read. Nil Einne (talk) 17:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Dysfunctional links in archived section headings

I have checked all the section headings in the language reference desk archives, and I have found dysfunctional links in section headings on the following month pages. When I visited the day pages, I examined the section headings and theorized reasons for the dysfunctional links, as specified in parentheses below. Where I have mentioned IPA symbols, foreign characters, and quotation marks, I consider them to be less likely problems than other features which I mentioned with them. I have not taken any liberty to correct any of these headings retroactively, but some editors might be in a position to do so. Especially, I suggest that someone examine this matter and either revise the software to prevent such problems, or mention in the welcome area all characters and wikicodes to be avoided in section headings. I have not checked the archived pages of other reference desks, but they possibly have similar problems.

(square brackets in another heading on the same day page not problematic)

This problem occurs also on the following page, unless I change the displayed part of the affected link.

-- Wavelength (talk) 00:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I am striking out from my message a portion which appears to be inaccurate. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I am revising my introduction for the sake of clarity. The underscore is to indicate inserted text and not to indicate emphasis.
-- Wavelength (talk) 15:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This will likely cause our archivemaster Steve Summit to have a brain explosion. Most of the problems appear to be caused by a mismatch between the way the parser handles "anchors" and scsbot's way of transcibing them. I've looked at a few cases and I can pick out two:
  • In the italics case, LangRef-01Sep-Q#4, hovering over Q4 gives the link , whereas the bot is transcribing ] as the link. The "'" (single-quote) character is disallowed in URL's and it looks as though the wiki parser just drops them in the heading-to-address translation.
  • And in the case of your own upage .../Answers (why so many J questions), the square braces (which are also disallowed in a URL) are being replaced with escape-sequences in the TOC of the archive page , whereas the bot transcript onto your own page keeps the brackets as square, which the parser then refuses to render as a valid link.
Hehe, does that make it any clearer lol? Certain characters are not allowed in web URL's and every piece of software handles them differently. I think Steve is AWOL right now, so the coder answer might be delayed. In the meantime, I'd suggest you just fix up the links or ignore the problem. People can still just call up the day-page for the archive. Whether or not the archive search function is being affected, I dunno. My hour is up on this one! :) Franamax (talk) 02:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Short answer: it's a known bug. —Steve Summit (talk) 21:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Maybe it would be acceptable (for now) to proactively (?) fix headings that won't archive right. This not being considered a violation of "don't edit others posts" since there's a good reason (call it formatting) to do it.83.100.251.196 (talk) 13:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, I really do need to fix the bug, but until then, I don't think it's worth worrying about, certainly not to the extent of running around editing people's subject lines, or trying to teach people how to avoid the troublesome forms. —Steve Summit (talk) 21:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I am such an idiot. Here I've been feeling guilty about not having fixed this bug for so long, when it turns out that for the most part I did fix it, back on March 2 of this year. (You'll notice that most of the examples User:Wavelength pointed out are earlier than that.)
There was at least one remaining bug which I'd never been aware of, involving "discussions having been moved to another desk". (Actually, the real problem was a section with no detectable date at all.) I think I've fixed that now, too.
If anyone notices any more such broken links going forward, feel free to let me know. (And if I seem dismissive, stating that it's a known bug which I haven't managed to fix, feel free to remind me that I have managed to fix the known bug, and that the one you're reporting must therefore be a new, different one. :-) ) —Steve Summit (talk) 00:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

When are so called helpers going to stop trolling people who ask questions

Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Language#Origin_of_phrase Hello , me again. Could there be some sort of agreement that treating the questioners like SHIT is not acceptable.87.102.94.154 (talk) 11:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Such agreement exists. We can't force everyone to adhere to it, though -- any sufficiently determined jerk will be able to offend someone. I hope you'll recognize the offending response as being distinctly outside the norm before railing against us in the future. — Lomn 13:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
How is answering in some kind of bizarre riddle format "treating questioners like shit"? It's only unhelpful. Vimescarrot (talk) 16:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree. It isn't trolling, it is just unhelpful. --Tango (talk) 16:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Reviewing this, yes, the first response had too many arcane clues - but with just a little more polishing it might have actually promoted what I think should be our primary aim - helping the questioner to develop their own research skills and discovery process. A little subtle wiki- and ext-linking would have made that answer quite helpful and maybe allowed the OP to find the answer themselves. Our better course is to try to educate the answerer on what the RD's are all about. Franamax (talk) 01:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Joke Room, revisited

Apparently the lengthy discussion above didn't mean a lot to some people: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#mole_removal --LarryMac | Talk 15:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

By my reading, the lengthy discussion above generally said "jokes before legitimate answers should be avoided". That's not the case with this example. — Lomn 15:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
But there doesn't have to be a joke (or thread of "jokes") every frakkin' time. The signal to noise ratio is incredibly low. --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Baseball Bugs gave a valid answer. Then Cuddly gave an equally valid answer, coupled with a small joke. Then it devolved into humour (I can't tell if Bugs' water method was realistic or not). I see no problem - OP got two satisfactory answers before the jokes started. Vimescarrot (talk) 16:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
The "get out of jail free" card for inappropriate jokes is to actually be funny, but a lot of the clowns here seem to just enjoy seeing their names in print and hit "Edit" before even thinking up their lame crack. --Sean 16:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
That is not a requirement that could ever be policed. What's funny to one person is lame to another; what's funny to me in my good mood today might whizz by me unnoticed, or even piss me off, tomorrow when I'm in a different state. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I didn't mean it as a policy, just that if even 10% of the jokes caused me to crack a smile, I'd be more forgiving of the rest. But they don't. People should try to keep their real-answer:joke ratio close to 20:1 so that they're only subjecting us to their best material. --Sean 20:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
How about no jokes at all? I don't come here to laugh. If I wanted to laugh I'd read a joke websites or watch a comedy. If I want factual information I look at Misplaced Pages.
Sure, but the people staffing this place are human, and a social community, so some joking is going to happen. It's just that lately the content:crap ratio has approached 1:2 or so, which is far too high IMHO. --Sean 20:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Also drawing your attention to "Misplaced Pages is not your web host, forum etc" Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a blog, webspace provider, social networking, or memorial site as well as other parts of that page - including "Misplaced Pages is not anarchy". etc.83.100.251.196 (talk) 21:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
No jokes should be a standard, not "some jokes are ok". (Yes, it's lonely out there - use email, the user talkpage, another site, or even this page - not the desks)83.100.251.196 (talk) 21:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I'll reiterate that IMO humorous comments are OK if they are very limited in quantity (Sean's 20:1 ratio), never reflect on the OP's person or motivation, and are preferably inserted with an initial double-indent and always with <small> tags so that readers have an indication that the comments are not part of the mainstream answer to the OP question. We're all human, and almost all RD'ers are pretty intelligent, so spotting and wishing to point out little quirks in previous answers is natural. It's part of the joy of participating here, there are often at least two different ways to look at any bit of text. As always, self-restraint is the key. Franamax (talk) 01:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I had been wondering about querying in "How did Eskimo or Inuit tribes defend themselves against polar bears before they had guns?" about surely it would be much more difficult after they got guns? Not that I've seen any evidence that they have. I see though from #User Baseball Bugs above that such a query might have been very much unappreciated :) Dmcq (talk) 10:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I liked the occasional funny post - but the level it's risen to recently is getting ridiculous. I have to call out User:Baseball Bugs as being the biggest culprit (and by far the least funny and most disruptive with 'nearly-believable' answers that are downright dangerous) - but others are making it worse. If we can't pull this back to normality voluntarily - we may have to reconsider our guidelines and simply rule humor out altogether. I wouldn't like to see that happen - but I'd rather we did that than allow the RefDesks to degenerate into junk. The 20:1 ratio is about right...but if we can't stay close to that, I'm happy with infinity:1. SteveBaker (talk) 18:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
(An alternative rule that we might consider would be that humor within a useful answer is cromulant - but posting purely for humor's sake is not. That would force off those few who reach first for a funny answer and only occasionally actually help the OP. I'm not sure I like to see this rule imposed either - but it's better than an outright ban if push comes to shove.) SteveBaker (talk) 18:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

SEE! I told you it wasnt just me. evryone likes a joke. Why not here? Its harmless

Who are you? Are you some kind of troll?
Everybody (or, just about everybody) likes a joke. But it's all too easy to overdo it, and we need to (collectively) be careful not to do that. —Steve Summit (talk) 02:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I look at it this way: Our goal is to get an answer for the OP. Having 90% of responses be jokes obviously hinders that, but so would a total ban on jokes as this would make the Ref Desk a dull place and fewer responders would read and respond to Q's. So, whatever balance results in the most answers is the best balance. StuRat (talk) 20:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Completely agree. See point 3 in this essay. —Steve Summit (talk) 18:31, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Agree, except I'd phrase it "whatever balance results in the most helpful answers." I like social gatherings where people have a sense of humor and wit. occasionally guests show up at these gatherings impersonating standup-comedians in search of an audience. This kind of frantic humor for humor's sake (or for the lulz) can be intimidating, even tyrannical, like being forced to work with a Harpo Marx impersonator (or David Brent). An overdose of standup comedy routines, puns, and slapstick can also turn away readers, querents, ad answerers. To suggest these people need to get a sense of humor (as someone did earlier) is odd and uses a very shallow definition of humor. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:49, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I was using the term "answer", as opposed to "response", to mean a response that answers the Q, and is thus useful. While people's senses of humor do vary, there are also some people who seem to lack a sense of humor entirely. My brother is one, he gets angry if you tell him a joke. StuRat (talk) 20:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
well, the announcement of a joke makes me feel apprehensive and uncomfortable, not angry, but yeah, that could be me.  :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 20:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Medical Advice Removal (Sept 17 2009)

Removed this question and replaced with our RD-MED template. Nimur (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it could get much more obvious than that. Well, there's the PMS eyeache thing I replied to rather than replacing, but it's close. :-). 23:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Good removal. Antenatal stuff is serious business - the only advice we should ever be giving in this situation is 'talk to a qualified medical professional'. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 23:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Taxa

User:Taxa is back, treating the Reference Desk as his soapbox and making a high number of extremely inappropriate posts. This is not unprecedented. Please do not encourage him by responding. Malcolm XIV (talk) 10:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I am interested in his opinion. You have inserted yourself where you are unwanted. I suggest you go away and take your vendettas along with you. Thanks for a whole lot of nothing.


Note, also, that the IP address 70.171.239.21 (who wrote the unsigned comment above) is very likely to be Taxa himself. His own IP address is in the range 71.1* and he has been caught in the past using a false signature to disguise this (ie normal text formatted to resemble a Wiki signature) . He has twice reverted my efforts to collapse his trolling thread on the Humanities desk about "Irish vs Germans in America"; I have no intention of breaking the three-revert rule to deal with him, so I'm taking it to Admin. Malcolm XIV (talk) 11:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I actually find this attempt to link me up with him, so you can attack this other said person, to be rather flattering. I wish I had an account, but alas, that seems to be too much trouble and not the same trouble you're getting at. I have talked with Baseball Bugs before, but not you or Taxa. I haven't even seen Taxa before today, but I've seen your name and thought you were some kind of fop or dandy. You're just a troll though.

ok I don't think IP address 70.171.239.21 is anything like User:TAXA , (unless there is a deliberate attempt to mislead by using different styles and apparent interest - which would be wrong under WP:AGF and I just wouldn't believe anyone would waste their time like that anyway..)
So lets forget about that link please.
And also try to avoid personal attacks as well as accusations of sockpuppetry and stop the mudslinging etc. (both of you)
however I agree that Taxa's posts are too soapboxy, (I've mentioned it already to them), wouldn't it be a better idea to talk to them, before going to the admin board...83.100.251.196 (talk) 11:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
The length of his sentences, the way he punctuates (note the overuse of commas), the fact that they're both trolling along similar lines and the fact that Taxa has done exactly this sort of thing before... All of these are sufficient for me. It's not a question of wasting HIS time in an elaborate deception, it's about wasting OUR time.
For this reason, I am not going to spend another second dealing with this blatant misuse of the Ref Desk. I'll leave it in others' hands.Malcolm XIV (talk) 11:47, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
The anon IP has been blocked.83.100.251.196 (talk) 13:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
As an aside it seems that many of these problematic questions come from posters who appear to be describing a purely local view, or a view of the world as they see it rather than being based in global reality. It might be helpful to consider trying to point out that the theories they have are not shared or confirmed by the majority of the population before calling troll.
Also consider that their experience of what the general population thinks or does might not match yours - eg they might live in a strict amish, or hassidic jewish community with little outside contact. (though I would hope they would be self aware of this)83.100.251.196 (talk) 13:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it would be better to do that, than jump and say 'meaningless post' which doesn't help them much. Also trying to extract an answerable question through requests for clarification may help a lot.
I accept though that that is not really part of what we have to do on the reference desk - but it's an option.83.100.251.196 (talk) 13:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

AGF no longer applies. Taxa is a sockpuppet of a well-known Ref Desk troll. Observe also the similarity between the responses given above by 70.171.239.21 and those given by User:Multimillionaire (another sockpuppet of the same user) when called out on his abuse of the Ref Desk. Malcolm XIV (talk) 13:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The edit I don't understand is the changing of signature. I tend to agree with the sentiments expressed at - ie that the condition here is youth, poorly worded questions, and 'out of the box thinking' rather than an attempt to annoy or troll. Right or wrong labelling Taxa as a sockpuppet seems unfair (speaking as someone who has been briefly blocked for a false accusation of sockpuppetry I tend towards caution in this area).
I would suggest either to leave the questions to others, or take a deep breath, and attempt to get closure on whatever question can be extracted from their posts. I really don't like it either when we have to teach rather than answer, and when any answerable question is obscured in a maze of personal experience, and blinkered through linear thought processes.
Beyond that I think asking for comment (and an explanation of the odd signature editing) from TAXA on this page would be a good idea.83.100.251.196 (talk) 14:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Also is it not possible for an admin to check if TAXA's IP resolves to the same as the anon IP? Which should settle things - I would agree that there are sufficient grounds for this to be acceptable.83.100.251.196 (talk) 14:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
That would require an SPI. Although asking an admin (or suggesting, as I did) to block all accounts on that IP address, could also tell us something. Baseball Bugs carrots 14:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
ok I don't know what a SPI is, I've asked TAXA to comment .83.100.251.196 (talk) 14:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Sockpuppet investigation (see WP:SPI). In cases where you're not sure of some procedure someone has mentioned, you can usually figure them out by typing wp: (followed by whatever the initialism was, no spaces) in the search box. Matt Deres (talk) 15:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I looked at SPI so was trying to figure out if it was one of these painful sounding proceedures: System Packet Interface, Security Parameter Index, Service Package Interpreter, Stateful Packet Inspection, Sensitive personal information... 83.100.251.196 (talk) 17:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Because the accusation lacks specificity as to what is allegedly being promoted or soapboxed there is no creditable accusation to which I might respond. There is not even enough specificity for me to suggest that you view The Future of Food to get the full story of which I may have only paraphrased. I am certainly not promoting anything except that perhaps you watch the documentary to get the full and more accurate story. In any case I only get a few days at a time to post questions to the reference desk so it may seem I have at times posted excess questions and engaged in dialog surrounding them because I must either make full use of the opportunity to post in the little time I have or not post at all. I do not maintain an alternate user account and as I recall the change to my signature was made at the request of several members who wanted to post on my user talk page but clicking on my user name took them to the definition of taxa instead. In absence of specificity I can say little more than this except that by my observation Malcum X seems to enjoy singling out persons whom he thinks he will be able to harrass. -- Taxa (talk) 18:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Please don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes. As these links show , you were altering your signature to make it plain text which did not link anywhere, in a botched attempt to cover up that you were also the known (and multiply banned) Ref Desk troll with an IP address in the range 71.100*. It did not link to the definition of taxa; it did not link anywhere. Please do not pretend that it did.
Furthermore, you were asked politely on a number of occasions to stop doing it and refused. Only when you were warned ("Multiple editors have asked you to change your signature because it is disruptive. Please do so. Nakon 17:15, 6 May 2008" ) did you stop doing it.
If you still feign to be unclear about the nature of the accusations, I will spell it out for you: your account is a sockpuppet of the banned user 71.100.164.179, also known as Multimillionaire, Barringa, Mimus polyglottos, Kadiddlehopper, Dichotomous, Julie Dancer, Adaptron, Ἀριστοτέλης, Leasing Agent and no doubt many others. Malcolm XIV (talk) 19:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I suggest you stop doing this, it's not WP:AGF without evidence, and looks like you are attempting to provoke the user. If you have a belief that this user is a sockpuppet you should take it to the WP:SPI as given above.
What you are currently doing is simply attacking another user.83.100.251.196 (talk) 19:32, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Did you look at the diffs I provided? This is evidence that Taxa has an IP address in the same region as all the sockpuppets listed above. He also shares the same MO. That is evidence. Malcolm XIV (talk) 19:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
That's 71.100.6.147 the blocked editor is 70.171.239.21 I'm not an expert on IP address but 70<>71 and I have had experience of different editors getting 83... IP's when I too get an 83... IP. So as far as I know that is not convincing evidence. I understand that there are similarities in style (both users post 'soapboxy' type questions) - that causes suspicion in my eyes, but not proof.
I've mentioned this on WP:ANI , so that hopefully an admin with suitable checkuser powers will be able to resolved this. I've also requested that someone else tell you to 'cool down' since I think your going over the top a bit, and I have to admit some sympathy with Taxa's statement that it's a bit like bullying. WP:AGF has not been overidden here.
83.100.251.196 (talk) 19:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
However, the IP address 71.100.164.179 (that of the blocked sockpuppeteer) is considerably closer to 71.100.6.147. I take objection to your suggestion that I am "bullying" or going "Over the top". I am merely providing the facts, and pointing out when User:Taxa fails to do so. Malcolm XIV (talk) 20:08, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry about that (I still have no idea if the closeness is significant) - I referred to your messages to User:Taxa - such as that on the ref desk - where you claimed that they were a sockpuppet. Seeing as no one is actually vandalising, or disrupting at the moment I would suggest waiting for someone else to take a look, as I have requested.83.100.251.196 (talk) 21:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) ok from that I can assume that the username issue was a technical problem (which you have now fixed), and that you are not using any sockpuppets. It's not clear what the significance of "schaum" is but I guess that is not relevent here.
However if your main aim in posting questions is to get people to read a book then that's not acceptable. I don't want to misinterpret your words, so I'll assume that your questions have purpose in themselves, beyond an attempt to get us to read the book you mention.
I would recommend though that you ask (or phrase questions) without the preconception of a single source to be responded to or read. Unless the book source is the primary topic in which case please make that clear in a question.
My main concern is that if you ask questions with the viewpoint of a single source in mind; either to be responded to, or proved or disproved then that is very close to soapboxing. Also remember that any promotion of a viewpoint is not allowed. I think it will be obvious to you that you are very close to the point where you actually are soapboxing, or promoting, or seeking an opinion.
Also please try to avoid the mudslinging, I don't like MalcolmXVI's blanket assertations that you are definately a sockpupper, as I think that is unfair without evidence. However it would be best to avoid returning any insults at this point, and hopefully we can all go back to normaility. Thank you.83.100.251.196 (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
FYI, "Schaum" is German for variations on foam, froth, etc. The closest cognate is "scum". Baseball Bugs carrots 19:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
User:froth ??? 83.100.251.196 (talk) 21:08, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Taxa has now been blocked indefinitely. Malcolm XIV (talk) 12:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Soapboxing

Given recent events, I think it would be a good idea to have a prescribed method to deal with soapbox type questions. I don't think deletion is a good idea (because it just stirs up the nest and causes them to swarm..) - I'm thinking of something like the box used for a closed discussion eg

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Soapboxy Question goes here...

please do not soapbox reason given etc
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I think it's important not to delete, and also to make it clear that the discussion is closed. But it needs some 'tagline' explaining why the discussion was closed, and why in a polite and concise way. Can anyone come up with a method, message, and proceedure that is workable.83.100.251.196 (talk) 13:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not keen on this idea. It explicitly violates WP:AGF and I see a problem about giving a reason why one has judged a post as being soapboxing. It is a judgement that the poster is unlikely to accept easily and the box could be misused because it looks like an administrative action. The price of keeping a low threshold for any user to post "any" question is that some unwelcome posts are unavoidable, but IMO that is an acceptable price. Think of it as an intellectual challenge to provide a sensible answer to a silly question. The value of the Ref. desks is discovering that there can be many good answers to a question. That value is diminished by introducing an unnecessary new way to shut down discussion. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Cuddlyable3's position. If soap-boxing is an issue, inform the responsible person on their talk-page; if it is a recurring problem, we can take more drastic measures. By its very nature, it's a spectrum, ranging from mild asides and one-off comments; to persistent and clear violations of our standards which interfere with the question. But, the grey-areas in the middle are debatable, and need to be handled on a case-by-case basis. This sort of template attempts to draw a thick black line around the issue, which I believe is counterproductive. Nimur (talk) 15:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the above as well. I think it's also worth adopting a policy of not worrying too much about it — nobody will die, and if things are getting wildly out of hand (e.g. nothing but paragraphs and paragraphs of vitriol), then there's really very little harm in just ignoring it. After a few days it'll get archived away like the rest, and I've seen far more love lost and tempers flared by trying to argue about whether something is a legitimate post than is often in the answers/questions themselves. The stakes are pretty low and we all know how to ignore topics. This applies, of course, to the gray area cases, not the blatant trolling. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 16:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Removed Request for Medical Advice

Removed request for medical advice. 23:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Seems like a good catch to me - no complaints here. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 23:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes but why remove? Wouldn't it be better to box off?83.100.251.196 (talk) 10:13, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
It shouldn't be answered and current answers don't need to be viewed. Why keep it? Vimescarrot (talk) 13:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
In my five or so years here, I have seen both deletions and attempts to "box off" requests for medical advice. The only way to keep it from being answered is to remove it. Once, I saw a user remove the notice that the question should not be answered so he could answer it and pretend he never saw a warning. It is more difficult to locate deleted questions, reinstate them, and then answer them. -- kainaw™ 15:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the text of the question should be removed. The only caveat is that we want the OP to see the medical disclaimer, so that they understand why their question was removed. That's why I usually leave at least the heading present (if the OP had a bookmark to the heading, for example, we don't want to break that). The degree of deletion depends on a variety of considerations, though. Nimur (talk) 15:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
this is why I disagree with leaving something on the page. Even though the question has been removed, two people have seen the removal as a driving reason to provide an answer. If the thing was just removed entirely, nobody would answer it. -- kainaw™ 22:35, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
We can't win. As you said, if we had simply deleted it, then two responders wouldn't have felt the need to reply. But, we would also have been censoring the question rather than redirecting it to a medical professional; I think that this is an example where the OP should have been encouraged to ask a doctor, because he/she is probably embarrassed to ask as it is. Censoring them will probably further that embarrassment and discourage them from actually asking a doctor; which we don't want to do. On the other hand, we should take a stricter stance to people who decide to ignore the medical-advice-removal and post answers anyway. Nimur (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with Nimur that the neatest way to handle these is to leave the heading intact, for the OP's benefit; and to replace the question with some kind of standard box or template or something that says "go see a professional", to either implicitly or explicitly discourage amateur doctors or lawyers from weighing in. The original question is in the history if someone is curious about it. Baseball Bugs carrots 01:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
It may be worthwhile to remind people at this point that we do have a standard process for removing medical advice requests; you can find it at Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice#Dealing with questions asking for medical advice. The process there evolved precisely because there's no other way to get helpful people to stop trying to answer a question — regardless of what harm their uninformed guesses might do. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

LEGO bricks

Where is the proper place to ask questions about LEGO bricks? --88.78.233.71 (talk) 15:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

If in doubt, place it on the Miscellaneous desk. It might be redirected to another desk (conceivably, Science, for example). Nimur (talk) 15:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah - the Misc desk is just the place...unless it's something about the science of Lego - or the linguistics of Lego or whatever. SteveBaker (talk) 23:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Too bad we don't have a desk for the religion of Lego. ;-) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 12:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Also, if you have medical or legal questions about Lego, you'd better consult a professional. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 12:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, so don't eat the bricks and ask us what to do. Googlemeister (talk) 16:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Removed medical advice

The thread Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Science#trauma is a clear request for medical advice. I didn't remove the thread entirely because Jayron has already offered an appropriate response: a referral to medical professionals.

I did remove this response, as it attempted to outline a specific course of therapy. If someone feels it necessary or appropriate to go whole-hog and remove the whole thread (per our standard protocol), go right ahead. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I did not make any medical recommendation, I merely mentioned that that was one course of treatment a THERAPIST may recommend, and provided the appropriate link. StuRat (talk) 19:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I concur with ToaT that "a therapist may recommend x" is outside the bounds of acceptable responses. A therapist may recommend a great many things; we should not step in for them with backhanded medical advice. — Lomn 20:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Just for background, Botswana (231,000 sq. mi./600,000 sq. km) is slightly smaller than Texas with about a tenth of the population (less than 2 million) for a density of about 8 people per square mile or 3 per square kilometre. Fifteen years ago, the country had 334 doctors and 3,329 nurses (plus 16 hospitals, 1 mental hospital, 200 clinics and 301 "health posts"), many of whom will be fully occupied dealing with AIDS. The original enquirer said that he's in a part of the country that has no counselling available, and the Google link only mentions (so far as I could see at first glance) psychologists in the capital, Gaborone, in the far south-east of the country. If the couple's in the opposite end of Botswana, that would be like referring someone in Amarillo or El Paso, Texas to psychologists in Houston. I don't think he should try desensitization therapy himself (who knows what could go wrong?), but we should probably refer him to whatever medical professionals may be nearby (or visiting one of the country's 700 stops for mobile health teams), plus reputable, professional psychological societies (and other sound authorities) on the web. Otherwise, he'll feel forced to go roaming the wide-open cyberspaces on his own, looking for whatever random help might pop up. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, by posting his question on our Ref Desk, he's already 'roaming the wide-open cyberspaces on his own, looking for whatever random help might pop up'. The notion that the Ref Desk on Misplaced Pages is inherently better or more reliable that some other random source on the web may represent a dangerous amount of hubris. By all means refer the guy to appropriate professional organizations – and remember, he's someplace that has internet access, so he's not totally destitute or disconnected from modern amenities – but we need to take care not to cross the line into giving our own advice. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm uneasy with trying to ban mentions of treatments. StuRat didn't attempt a diagnosis or offer medical advice. Compare with a questioner posting "I think I broke my leg and am wondering what to expect for treatment" and an answerer posting, "The doctor may set the bone." Tempshill (talk) 05:50, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm uneasy, too. Psychotherapy goes into far more detail of what a therapist might do in any given case than what StuRat said. Should we now delete that article because it's offering "medical advice"? -- JackofOz (talk) 11:11, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
No no no. The logic here does not hold - the two are not comparable. An article (for example, on heart disease) may include a description of treatment with aspirin and nitroglycerin. If, separately, someone on the RefDesk were to describe their problem and a respondent were to reply, "one course of treatment that a doctor would prescribe would be aspirin and nitroglycerin", the latter would be inappropriate but would not in any way impugn the former mention of these modalities in the heart disease article. It is the mention of diagnoses and/or treatments in reply to a specific situation that may represent medical advice, not the general discussion of them. --Scray (talk) 11:55, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure everyone here wishes we could help out this OP in some way but, in keeping with our usual response to medical questions, we shouldn't answer this. Notwithstanding the OP's lack of health-care options, "rules" are rules. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:10, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I think we should give as much advice as we can about the best way to find and consult professional help in this enquirer's particular situation. If he goes to (purely for example) the American Psychological Association's site, I doubt that it's going to tell non-practitioners how to initiate desensitisation treatment. If he's lucky enough to be near a registered nurse or the Botswanan equivalent of a physician's assistant or registered nurse-practitioner, of course we should urge that too (and probably first). But the answer that's on the page right now is close enough that I haven't yet felt moved to attempt a refinement. Actually, it's probably archived by now. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:19, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Nice argument from authority rather than logic. StuRat did not offer a medical diagnosis or give medical advice, so his response was fine and should not have been deleted. Tempshill (talk) 06:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
When something's been discussed ad nauseum, referring to established positions is appropriate. StuRat did discuss a "specific course of treatment" (his words, from his initial response above) in the context of what many here feel was clearly a request for medical advice. -- Scray (talk) 09:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

October 2006 Help Desk archives

I see that I have reached the end of the archives in the current format. I guess that means I go to the other archive for older questions.

But does what I've found mean there were fewer questions on the dates before October 21?Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:36, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I found my answer. It turns out those old archives stop at October 21, 2006. Weird how the new format is used for a handful of older questions.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Oops, wrong talk page. I went back and looked, and the link to here was in a description of what to do about bot problems.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Help!

Can someone take a look at this Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Science#Science_Lab_Cleaner - basically the person who is teaching your kids (not mine hopefully) doesn't even know how to wash a ....... beaker.

I'm thinking that the same reasons we don't give medical advice may apply here. In you hands please.83.100.251.196 (talk) 15:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I find this (and a few of the responses) to be overly pessimistic. The question isn't "how do I wash a beaker", it's "what are some good cleaning agents". No particular paranoia is required. — Lomn 19:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
ok I'm over it now.83.100.251.196 (talk) 20:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
It is a particularly good question. You can't use just any cleaner for science beakers. Many leave a residue on the beakers that could potentially react with the chemicals being used in lab experiments. If you get a degree, even a PhD, in some form of science, you may not necessarily ever pay attention to the type of cleaner being used in the lab. -- kainaw™ 14:33, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Spam?

it's not really a question is it.83.100.251.196 (talk) 18:26, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Since the URL doesn't make it obvious, Warning: that site is pornographic obscene Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
"youngthroats" isn't obvious porn? Vimescarrot (talk) 18:27, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
You never know. It could be about tonsilectomies. →Baseball Bugs carrots 19:26, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
In any case, it's just pornographic, not obscene. Obscenity is illegal, technically. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Depends on how you define "obscenity". Did you ever see any of Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy's concert films? →Baseball Bugs carrots 07:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I think you're confusing obscenity with profanity. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
So, apparently, were the cops who used to arrest guys like Lenny Bruce and George Carlin. So just what is "obscenity", then? →Baseball Bugs carrots 00:04, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
There's an article on it Obscenity, as an example of pornography that was sufficiently obscene to result in a prosecution see Max Hardcore.83.100.251.196 (talk) 12:52, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Deja vu spam at that. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Archive timing?

On perhaps half-a-dozen recent occasions, I've accessed a current reference desk question and contributed to one of the ongoing answers, and on exiting have found that the question is now archived. Are the archiving transfers manual - and if so, who decides when to do them and on what grounds - or are they automated - and if so, what are the timing criteria? 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The archiving is semiautomatic. There is a program that does all the work, but I invoke it manually, so that I can follow up on any anomalies that it might occasionally report. I generally kick it off between 0030 and 0100 UTC, or sometimes a few hours later, or sometimes not at all if I'm on vacation or otherwise nowhere near a network connection. —Steve Summit (talk) 17:02, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Steve; that explains it, as I'm a night owl and often work (OK, it's not "work", exactly) at this sort of time if not later. (It just happened again, prompting me to come and see if there had been a reply yet!) 87.81.230.195 (talk) 02:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
And thanks for handling the archiving administrivia for all of us. --Sean 19:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Swallowing chewing gum

This asks for advice about what to do after swallowing chewing gum. The old wives tale that it "sticks to your lungs" or does other untold damage seems to be at play here. I'd happily tell them that it's perfectly safe (I've been swallowing chewing gum all my life, and look at me .... well, maybe not) - but I fear it would be construed as "medical advice". -- JackofOz (talk) 21:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

As we're a reference desk, would it be safe to give this reference? Vimescarrot (talk) 13:05, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I think in the cases where it is really obviously just a fear of an urban myth, we can certainly point them in the direction of the copious references to it being an urban myth. It's totally irrational to do otherwise, or to refer him to a doctor or etc. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Snopes is well-known for investigating urban myths, and this one is covered: I would guess that a doctor would tell a patient the same thing, only at greater expense and with less detail. →Baseball Bugs carrots 15:30, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Doctors in the UK are free. Did Opie mention his country of origin? Vimescarrot (talk) 18:16, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
He's an IP address that geolocates to Serbia. It's good to know they allow chewing gum in Serbia. (Or maybe they don't - maybe that's why he swallowed it.) →Baseball Bugs carrots 18:40, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Either way, the time and stress is a legitimate "cost", no matter what health care system you are in. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I just think it would gum up your works.

I'm amazed - "What is this problem!!"

You guys confuse me. We discuss whether telling someone that swallowing gum is safe constitutes medical advice but when a person basically asks if they need therapy, we happily tell them that they're normal and not to worry about it. Dismas| 01:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Until Deborahjay came along, I don't think it occurred to anyone that this might be a problem warranting medical intervention. Vimescarrot (talk) 09:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Plus, re your confusion, it's always a lot easier to interpret physical problems as medical ones than psychological ones. Vimescarrot (talk) 09:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
WoW! free counselling! I'm gonna tell my friends. <end of sarcasm> I think this needs to be avoided in future. Not a good precedent.83.100.251.196 (talk) 12:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
People are pretty bad about this. The problem is the line between "oh, everyone feels that way" and "this is something that needs to be clinically treated" is not just blurry, but formally contested. Add to it the fact that everyone has their own home bromides about mild conditions, and it's really just a mess. That being said, I do feel for those people who point out that in their country, there isn't really an option for real therapy. But we shouldn't deal with this sort of thing on here. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Baseball bugs

Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Humanities#Why the U.S. didn't use the Atomic Bomb on Nazi Germany?

...Without the atomic bomb and just with the other conventional weaponry, wich could have been the outcome of the war in the pacific? MBelgrano (talk) 01:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
...
the reference desk is not for debates, to seek opinions, or for general discussions. Or a magical crystal ball.83.100.251.196 (talk) 01:29, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
He asked a question, and people are trying to answer it. Either offer a possible answer, or cease your nannyism and go somewhere else. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I just left a message after a follow up question seeking an opinion on a possible alternate history, and get this personal attack.

And the same user is still posting nonsense. 83.100.251.196 (talk) 16:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

It's generally not helpful to jump in and say "not for debates! not a soapbox!", especially when someone asks what is considered to be a genuine historical question (one which has been written on by real-deal historians at length). It's especially unhelpful if other people are actually giving fairly thought-out responses. I'm not sure if I'd call it "nannyism," but it is annoying. When gripped with the urge to tell people to stop talking about something because it involves "opinions", I suggest just moving along to another question. I do it all the time, nobody suffers, life goes on. (The Question about Science V Religion thread has spiraled out of control a long time ago, for example. But if we ignore it, it will, in fact, go away on its own!) --Mr.98 (talk) 16:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I disagree. We don't accept questions that ask for opinions or speculation. That's right up there at the top of every RefDesk page: "The reference desk does not answer requests for opinions or predictions about future events. Do not start a debate; please seek an internet forum instead.". Sometimes answers to acceptable questions that were requesting solid fact do require opinions in order to provide a fully fleshed-out answer where those solid facts do not exist - or are controversial. But hopefully sufficient fact gets into the answer in the end that the OP can go away satisfied. 83.100.251.196 was correct in telling our OP that this was not an acceptable question and Baseball Bugs should not have replied so offensively to the only correct response to that question. "Alternate history" questions are not things we can or should answer. SteveBaker (talk) 13:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
The exception being: "Has there been historical research on what would have happened if..." That is a blatant request for references. Unfortunately, it will certainly spark a debate. -- kainaw™ 13:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
83.100.251.196 - for the avoidance of doubt it would have been helpful if you had clearly shown that your post was specifically a response to MBelgrano, and not aimed at the original anon questioner, who had asked a legitimate historical question about US military and political thinking at the end of WWII. Gandalf61 (talk) 13:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
BB has reined himself in enormously since the conflagration above and has been making numerous valuable contributions. I think we should cut him some slack on occasional lapses. --Sean 14:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
It seems to be that being a just a little bit of a disruptor is akin to being just a little bit pregnant. --LarryMac | Talk 11:29, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

User:Megatrip

Had to restore a question 83.100.251.196 (talk) 23:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Non productive remarks at the Reference desk

I removed this remark as I felt it unproductive. I believe that this is not the correct page for this type of "answer". Please advise if I am out of place here. Erector Euphonious (talk) 11:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

And I put it back. It's deletion amounts to vandalism, or at least nannyism, or at least jumping to conclusions about someone's motives in asking a question - which is something you and that IP are constantly criticizing me for doing. So you need to follow your own advice. I am not a scientist. I asked what I thought was a fair question. You do not own the ref desk. Don't delete my entries again. →Baseball Bugs carrots 11:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I will let the community decide. FWIW, It is my opinion that this type of help is not what your fellow editors want at the reference desk. Please review the past discussions on this matter most recently here and here. Please stop. Erector Euphonious (talk) 11:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I think the post by Baseball Bugs was fine. Should maybe have started a new section as it a follow-up question rather than an answer, but apart from that easily fixed thing I see no problem. Gandalf61 (talk) 11:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
That's a good idea, and I will do that. EE, meanwhile, is the one who needs to stop. He was created a few weeks ago and immediately started hassling me. At that time he fell short of the threshold for indef block for harassment. But it's early yet. →Baseball Bugs carrots 11:37, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I, personally, am rather tired of this sad attempt to pick on Baseball Bugs every day. I think Baseball Bugs is an ass, but I don't wake up every day and try to find some way to pick on him. This is becoming a classic case of "you become that which you hate." The IP, which I figure is now Erector, is far more an ass that Baseball Bugs has ever been. Deleting another person's entry because you don't find it productive is far far far out of line. Nobody here is in charge of productivity of comments. -- kainaw™ 12:18, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
'The IP' - are you talking about me, and saying I'm running a sockpuppet? Because this is not true.83.100.251.196 (talk) 12:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
The above IP has been established for awhile and takes enough shots at me that I don't think he needs a sock, nor do I think he's EE. I'm pretty sure who EE is, but I will invoke WP:DENY and say nothing more than that. →Baseball Bugs carrots 13:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
All that said, it would be really great if BB could stop treating the RD as a forum, restrict him/herself to factual answers to questions, and generally stop playing the clown. I think we've all had enough of it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Questions lead to other questions, and many editors besides me expand the discussion beyond the original question. →Baseball Bugs carrots 12:32, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but if you add stuff unrelated to the question/answer (eg like at Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#Identifying_two_brothers) it annoys people.83.100.251.196 (talk) 12:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
No, it annoys you. Don't pretend to speak for anyone else. And read the article about the photographer. It's very interesting, as it vaguely speaks to your comment. He says that people react differently to photos depending on what they see in the photos. What I saw in the photos was a couple of obviously twin brothers with big ears and a look that suggested they weren't very happy at being photographed. Just because the specific facts of the question have been answered, need not be the end of the discussion, as it can broaden. I find your behavior annoying also. But that's my problem, just as your annoyance with me is your problem. →Baseball Bugs carrots 13:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
OK, then, it annoyed me too, and the two Richards from the looks of things. Here's the rub - you state "it need not be the end of the discussion" - but as many people have tried to point out, this is not a discussion forum. We had long, drawn-out, sometimes painful threads while drawing up the guidelines, but that fact never has changed. We have one mission - "Answer questions (preferably with references to reliable sources)." --LarryMac | Talk 13:19, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
And answers lead to other questions and other answers, which can give more information to the user than he asked for, and where's the harm in that? As you've seen, these questions sometimes lead others, including me, to ask followup or spinoff questions ourselves. The sub-heading was a good idea, that I'm now employing. And I took away the golfish comment. →Baseball Bugs carrots 13:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Often the questions are open-ended, and frankly they're often posted by drive-bys who never bother to come back and offer guidance or any indication that they've seen the responses. They also ask not-easily-answerable questions. A recent one was, "Is it cheating if I round my GPA from 2.96 up to 3?" Now, how can you answer a question like that with a factual answer? You could try to give opinions, which there was a lot of from various editors. Or you could send him to some article about morals and ethics, which would be the opinions of others. Or, by exploring and debating the question, you can arrive at a reasonable answer, after some days - which is call the company you're interviewing with and ask them about it. That process was a lot better than censoring the question up front. →Baseball Bugs carrots 12:43, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
This amounts to not liking someone's personality. I like Baseball Bugs personality. I don't like mean-spiritedness, which is another personality trait on display here. Bus stop (talk) 12:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Here's an example: "Looks like a goldfish with a really bad skin condition. Needs to go see a piscean dermatologist." from . If you could resist the temptation to make valueless crap jokes like this, it would be appreciated. I don't particularly want to spend the time trawling for all of your dumb comments, but you know and I know and lots of other people know that you are the major "joker" on the RD right now. And as I think I said, it really grates. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:04, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
It grates on a few individuals, and there are plenty of other jokesters on those pages. And FYI, that's in fact what that fish looked like to me. I could delete that if you think it does not add value. Tell ya what - if you've got a problem with a specific comment or question I raise, don't go running to Mommy here - go straight to my talk page. Anyone can post any reasonable comment or question on my talk page. I won't tell you to go away unless you severely cross the bounds of civility. →Baseball Bugs carrots 13:09, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
BB, to turn your condescending phrase around, I do not intend to be your mummy and wipe your nose each time it runs. This is an appropriate place to discuss behaviour on the RDs; and, indeed, I've held off for weeks whilst I've watched others criticise you. Please take heed of the message: you are notable for your no-added-value responses. You do, too, contribute value. If you could just get your urge to post slightly more under control, such that you only post when you do add value, we'd appreciate it. That is all. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
(ec) It's generally agreed that an occasional joke is not only ok, but also necessary to keep the ref desks from becoming a dry, sterile, stuffy, academic place. I'm as guilty as anyone of being a bit of a jokester, but I hope I've always kept them to a minimum. The problem comes when the same person frequently makes jokes; for them, jokes etc are almost the rule rather than the exception, rather than the other way around. They come across as attention-seeking trivialisers. That may not be their conscious intention, but that's how they appear. Those of us who hold the ref desks in great respect don't like it when someone appears to trivialise them, even if it's someone who also makes very worthwhile contributions when they're in non-joke mode. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:43, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
At last, a reasoned analysis, and I will work to do better. It occurs to me that with the photo of the two guys, the pedantic answer to the question, "Are they twins?" is "Yes, they are twins," and the flippant answer is, "Ya think?" The article that was eventually cited gives some actual insight. One of the more interesting points is that to some viewers it appears to be intended to counter the idea of white supremacy; but the photographer, as with most artists, doesn't like to comment on his own work, as it's up to the interpretation of the viewer. →Baseball Bugs carrots 14:00, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
The post in question is also a direct link to a YouTube copyvio. I could have sworn there was a rule against that. Certainly since the post was just a joke post anyway. APL (talk) 14:46, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
What leads us to believe that YouTube's displaying of the Warner Brothers' cartoon is a copyright violation? I'm just asking because I don't know. Bus stop (talk) 14:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Oh, because the video was uploaded by some random guy. Obviously recorded straight off the Cartoon Network. This is obviously not an official distribution method by Warner Brother's picture. And the clip is certainly recent enough to have copyright protection. APL (talk) 15:11, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
IT WAS NOT A JOKE POST and whether it's a copyright violation or not the question is still a fair question. I've been repeatedly lectured about not second-guessing the motives of drive-by questioners, so I except those lecturers to obey their own rules. →Baseball Bugs carrots 16:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) A fair percentage of questions posed at the reference desks are not, in my opinion, genuine, straightforward requests for help with problems of an intellectual nature that they can't solve themselves. I am referring to questions in which an agenda is in play which takes the form of "stump the reference desk people." It is OK. Humans will be human. But I think it is unrealistic to think that the reference desk responders are not also capable of intellectual jousting. As Baseball Bugs correctly points out, many posts do not involve further input from the question poser. In my opinion this is problematic, though occasionally acceptable. If we are ostensibly solving their problems then they should be trying to keep us on track. In many instances the thread of thought has little alternative than to wander off unguided, due to lack of further clarifying input from the original questioner. We are all volunteers here, participating because we enjoy doing so. When left to our own devices we participate in the way that our individual "inner editors" guide us to participate. Way-out-of-line behavior may need to be curbed. But I don't think there is anything of that sort seen in this tempest in a boat on the high seas. Bus stop (talk) 16:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Can I just add that it would be helpful if people in general could make an effort to include some kind of reference in their answers, rather than just popping up and making a comment or adding to a discussion. Links! That's what we need. Jokes are all very well, in their place, but putting in a link to a Misplaced Pages page or another website is very important, and it doesn't seem to happen as often as it should. Malcolm XIV (talk) 19:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
When someone asks for something that's more like an opinion, which is often the case, there may not be any links, or they might be hard to find. To what extent do we do the OP's work for him? Like one today that asked whether actresses in movies put their own earrings in or whether the makeup folks do that. Good luck finding a link for that. →Baseball Bugs carrots 20:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
(general comment, not aimed at Baseball Bugs): It didn't happen in that case, but often, respondents simply guess, and say they're guessing, or say they don't know the answer to the question. I have rarely seen any value in such posts. If you know from personal experience, you can share your knowledge. But if you don't know, and can't add any value, it's best to stay out of the discussion altogether. Nobody wants to know that you don't know; the ref desks are not places where ego trips are welcome or should be encouraged. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:11, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Heh, I'm guilty of that too... For me, when I say "I'm guessing" it means "I'm pretty damn sure but I have no absolute proof. Here's my line of reasoning." You make a good point though. In particular, just answering for the sake of posting something to any given thread is not a good idea. We have had some rather prolific participants here who try to answer every single question from a "first-principles" basis and end up not contributing much of value at all. Franamax (talk) 21:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
(after e/c) I know that I have many times added related questions to a thread that intrigues me. I'm as much an asker as an answerer here. I do try to indicate clearly when I'm hijacking a thread, so the subsectioning was a good solution. I see two problems here: one is that Bugs obviously has a rep working against him, so needs to be extra-careful for a while (and indeed has been lately); the other is that Bugs pretty much already knew all the answers, so rather than ask people to "comment on the physics", he should have outlined his state of knowledge and asked about what specific aspect of the physics troubled him. Bugs, when a desker removes something and immediately posts the concern here, it's not vandalism, it is a good-faith effort to maintain the decorum of the desks and resolve the problem here in the sausage factory. It all got resolved, so there's no need to take a hostile attitude (though I can understand why you do!).
Malcolm, yes I certainly agree that we should all be trying to add lynx to our replies, however some Q's are better answered with a qualitative response invoking a line of reasoning rather than a specific set of equations. In the case of the OP question, I do feel that a "lets think it through" approach is better than linking to a set of equations which the OP is already familiar with. They just needed some nudges as to how the chain of events would work. Franamax (talk) 21:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
(ec)Or this one, "Can't you move to a new home with a cat, or is it just a legend?" One could take hours trying to find something about that. Or one could weigh in with personal experience, as several have done, and which strikes me as the most obvious approach to a question of that type. →Baseball Bugs carrots 21:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
But this is a reference desk, not an opinions desk. There are plenty of other places on the internet where people can have cosy little discussions about things based on nothing more than personal experience. We are here to direct people to sources of information. If you think it would take too long to find a reference, maybe it would be better to steer clear of that particular question. Malcolm XIV (talk) 22:08, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Just to illustrate - it's not difficult to find reliable resources about moving house with a cat etc, obviously that wasn't quite the original question - but seeing as vets are giving advice on moving house with a cat without saying "it's impossible" - it doesn't take a genius to work out the answer. (One page notes that cats tend to go awol on the day of the move, so it's a good idea to 'bag your cat' beforehand..). Of course quite why they can't google it themselves is mystery.83.100.251.196 (talk) 22:23, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I think that - if a whole new question arises from someone elses question it's polite to start a totally new question, rather than subsectioning it, which I'll bet some people would find annoying....83.100.251.196 (talk) 22:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I could do that too. →Baseball Bugs carrots 23:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Could BB be a sock of LC? Seems to have similar truculence?--WhaleMeltdown (talk) 00:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Not at all likely. I'm not sure who "LC" is, but BaseballBugs has a large number of edits dating back to mid 2007. A large portion of these edits are useful edits. APL (talk) 01:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I am no one's sock. Nor does "LC" ring a bell (except maybe a cowbell). That reminds of this one, supposedly a true story: Howard Cosell and Bob Uecker were broadcasting a ball game, and the the walking lexicon Cosell used the word "truculent" and then teased Uecker as to whether he knew what it meant. Uecker came right back with, "If you had a truck, and I borrowed it, that would be a truck-you-lent." →Baseball Bugs carrots 01:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
LC is <redacted troll food> and if they've progressed to that level, that would be an awesome achievement. Baseball Bugs is well-known across the wiki, or at least at WP:ANI where his contributions have sometimes been addressed in a similar vein as at this venue. :) I rather think he's done it all by himself. Franamax (talk) 01:29, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I missed a space in the uname and the list is by no means comprehensive, but LC is an old friend of ours. Not Bugs-y at all. Franamax (talk) 01:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
(ec)<redacted troll food, yeah, that one> That one vaguely rings a bell, but I don't know from where. As my page says, or used to say (I haven't looked at it lately), I am "my own" sockpuppet, i.e. sometimes the evil side comes out, but always under this one name: →Baseball Bugs carrots 01:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
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