| Revision as of 14:35, 9 September 2009 editPigsonthewing (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, IP block exemptions, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors266,567 edits →Name: new section← Previous edit | Revision as of 15:07, 9 September 2009 edit undoEzhiki (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators165,314 edits →Name: rspNext edit → | ||
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| Yesterday, I moved this template to ''Infobox Russian settlement'' (and related pages likewise); that being both shorter and more memorable, given its similarity to ''Infobox settlement''. Today, has reverted me, with edit summaries including the pejorative "''Please do not make changes to things you do not understand.)''". Can anyone make a case that the original name is better, or shall we move it back? ] (User:Pigsonthewing); ]; ] 14:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC) | Yesterday, I moved this template to ''Infobox Russian settlement'' (and related pages likewise); that being both shorter and more memorable, given its similarity to ''Infobox settlement''. Today, has reverted me, with edit summaries including the pejorative "''Please do not make changes to things you do not understand.)''". Can anyone make a case that the original name is better, or shall we move it back? ] (User:Pigsonthewing); ]; ] 14:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
| :Hi, thanks for trying to make things better, but, unfortunately, you didn't. "Shorter" and "more memorable" is surely a laudable goal, but in this particular case "settlement" is the worst possible term one could choose. A "settlement" in Russia may be one of many different things—yes, it could means "inhabited locality", broadly construed (although that usage is not common as applied to larger cities and towns, in articles on which this infobox is primarily deployed), but it also means a certain type of a rural locality ("{{lang|ru|посёлок}}"), a certain type of an urban locality ("]"), and, confusingly, two types of ]s ("urban settlement" and "rural settlement"). Confused yet? And I am not even delving into the historical aspect of all this! "Inhabited locality", on the other hand, has none of those deficiencies and ambiguities; plus, this term is very close to the original Russian term ("{{lang|ru|населённый пункт}}"). | |||
| :Here's an example for you to ponder on. ] is a settlement (a settlement of rural type, if you use the full designation) in ]. That Bolshakovo is a "settlement" means that it is a rural locality, but it is not a village, it is not a '']'', it is not an ], and so on and so forth. A "settlement" is one of the many types of rural localities that exist in Russia; that's the primary meaning of the word (and unfortunately, there is no better synonym to replace it with to avoid ambiguity ''completely''). Together with urban localities, rural localities comprise the inhabited localities of Russia. | |||
| :For more background details on the terminology, please see ]. It's not the best written article, but it should give you a general idea of what is going on here. The gist is basically that we are trying to avoid using an ambiguous term overloaded with incompatible meanings (which apply to pretty much the same context!) by all means possible. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask me (here is fine). Cheers,—] • (]); 15:07, September 9, 2009 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 15:07, 9 September 2009
Forkit
Another fork of settlement, sigh. You can't include fact templates in an infobox template, unless you also arrange to pass a date. Rich Farmbrough, 02:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC).
- Really everything in the infobox should be from the article,and hence referenced there. Rich Farmbrough, 04:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC).
- The template is recent and is still being worked on. Passing the dates to the fact templates is one thing that is planned to be added (I apologize for the inconveniences of the interim period). If you want to help in that area, then by all means, do!
- As for the second part of your comment (that everything in the infobox should be from the article and referenced there), I would hardly be the one to disagree, but in reality folks just add those dumb infoboxes without ever bothering to work that same stuff into the text (let alone reference it properly). About 95% of the existing infoboxes are unreferenced, and hence should be marked as such.
- Fork-wise, {{Infobox settlement}} does not work well for Russia—it has too many confusing and easily misused parameters which are not really applicable, does not have a number of important parameters which are applicable, and does not allow to group the parameters that work logically. Trust me, if it were possible to adapt {{Infobox settlement}} to work for Russia properly, I wouldn't be wasting my time developing a Russia-specific template. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:32, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
- What makes you think that {{Infobox settlement}} cannot work for Russia properly? Have you raised your concerns on its talk page? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 01:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Name
Yesterday, I moved this template to Infobox Russian settlement (and related pages likewise); that being both shorter and more memorable, given its similarity to Infobox settlement. Today, has reverted me, with edit summaries including the pejorative "Please do not make changes to things you do not understand.)". Can anyone make a case that the original name is better, or shall we move it back? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for trying to make things better, but, unfortunately, you didn't. "Shorter" and "more memorable" is surely a laudable goal, but in this particular case "settlement" is the worst possible term one could choose. A "settlement" in Russia may be one of many different things—yes, it could means "inhabited locality", broadly construed (although that usage is not common as applied to larger cities and towns, in articles on which this infobox is primarily deployed), but it also means a certain type of a rural locality ("посёлок"), a certain type of an urban locality ("urban-type settlement"), and, confusingly, two types of municipal formations ("urban settlement" and "rural settlement"). Confused yet? And I am not even delving into the historical aspect of all this! "Inhabited locality", on the other hand, has none of those deficiencies and ambiguities; plus, this term is very close to the original Russian term ("населённый пункт").
- Here's an example for you to ponder on. Bolshakovo is a settlement (a settlement of rural type, if you use the full designation) in Kaliningrad Oblast. That Bolshakovo is a "settlement" means that it is a rural locality, but it is not a village, it is not a selo, it is not an aul, and so on and so forth. A "settlement" is one of the many types of rural localities that exist in Russia; that's the primary meaning of the word (and unfortunately, there is no better synonym to replace it with to avoid ambiguity completely). Together with urban localities, rural localities comprise the inhabited localities of Russia.
- For more background details on the terminology, please see types of inhabited localities in Russia. It's not the best written article, but it should give you a general idea of what is going on here. The gist is basically that we are trying to avoid using an ambiguous term overloaded with incompatible meanings (which apply to pretty much the same context!) by all means possible. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask me (here is fine). Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:07, September 9, 2009 (UTC)