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The section at issue is Types of entities, the most relevant paragraph is:

A city, country, people or person by contrast, is a self-identifying entity: it has a preferred name for itself. The city formerly called Danzig now calls itself Gdańsk; the man formerly known as Cassius Clay now calls himself Muhammad Ali. These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names.

There is a question of what people's positions are, and some misrepresentation of positions. The following should help us resolve some of these issues. Please place your name below, or use the {{user}} tag and a diff to include someone else. Do not add discussion. If you would like to add a new position, ask below first.

Straw poll

Do not add discussion, it will be moved or deleted.

The section is poorly written

1. pseudo-philosophical and verbose    M   23:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
2. These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity is a genuine, if clumsily phrased, philosophical statement; but not consensus. Many of us are Nominalists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:30, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
3. I Agree with the content of the section, but it really needs to be re-written. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 04:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
4. Yes; too much dubious philosophical theorizing; little useful guidance (and the guidance that is given is wrong).--Kotniski (talk) 07:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The section is not poorly written

1. I see no major problems. It seems quite clear to me. Xandar 00:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
2. I agree with Xandar. NancyHeise 01:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
3. Also agree. The section has proved useful, and is clear as currently written. --anietor (talk) 17:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
4. I agree that this has been a useful section and I prefer that it remain as it has been.--EastmeetsWest (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
5. Agree with the statement. --Rider 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Preferred (self-identifying) names do not overrule the most common name

1.    M   23:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
2. Kotniski (talk · contribs)
3. Nor does the section, as written, actually say that they do; it says they should be considered. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:30, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
4. The name most common in reliable sources should be used, except when someone has legally changed their name, so long as that's been published in an RS too. But for groups, we should use the most common name; otherwise we'd be forced, in effect, to view them the way they view themselves, which is POV. SlimVirgin 05:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
5. I agree with SV, but would also add that national varieties of English and WP:NC#Use English words may also need to be considered. As Misplaced Pages is reactive and not proactive if a boxer called "Cassius Clay" today decided to call himself "Muhammad Ali" it would not be up to Misplaced Pages to alter the name its article from "Cassius Clay" to "Muhammad Ali" until the majority of reliable sources started to do so. --PBS (talk) 00:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
6. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source and needs to follow the usage commonly followed by the reliable sources on a subject. It should not be in the business of trying to determine the "true" name, which incidentally is not clear-cut in several instances (if it were a clear-cut issue, the common name would match the self-identification and there would be no dilemma to start with). Abecedare (talk) 20:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Preferred names overrule the most common name

1. When common name conflicts with the preferred name of a living, self-identifying entity the common name should redirect or disambiguate to the self-preferred name. This is one of the many exceptions to to Misplaced Pages's naming conventions and common name principle. Does not apply to inanimate objects or defunct organizations/persons. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 04:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC) Addendum: this self-preferred name would have to be confirmed by reliable sources, both primary and independent. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 06:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
2. If there's going to be a controversy over whether non-living/extant self-identifiers are covered or not, I'd prefer that to be dealt with separately. On the main issue I believe the long-standing guidance is quite correct and has actually been the continuing practice in Misplaced Pages articles such as the examples I gave above - and many others. The paragraph explains the rationale and reason why self-identifying names should normally be given preference. It is because identifying an entity by a name that entity does not prefer such as calling Inuits by the name Eskimo, even if the latter is the most common name in English, can be seen as insulting, contentious, and an attack on that entity's most basic asset - its identity. Xandar 14:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
3. The way this is written is not truly reflective of my opinion, but it leans more in this direction than the other. I think that under most circumstances, we should use self-identified names. The exception would be in the case that the self-identified name is substantially less common than another, not only in everyday speech, but in scholarly sources as well. In cases where both a self-identifying name and another name are commonly used, even if one has a slight edge in usage, I think we should always default to the self-identified name. Why? In close cases, it's typically hard to tell which name is really the most common (remember, Google searches are unreliable, and even browsing scholarly works is rarely exhaustive, and is subject to the pitfalls of the human bias that even the best scholars are subject to). By contrast, self-identifying names are objective from our perspective (not that the name itself is objective, but that our reporting of it is), and are a good way to resolve difficult calls. (This is essentially why I continue to support returning the article about Thailand's western neighbour to Myanmar. Sources in English use both Burma and Myanmar, but only one is self-identifying.) Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:24, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
4. Why would we not respect the actions of the entity? I see no need to ever perpetuate ignorance. --Rider 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Entities which are not living/extant have self-identifying names.

1. If not, we will have to change this anyway when Muhammad Ali dies, in the foreseeable future. Will we move his article? Is Woodrow Wilson a self-identifying name (he was christened Thomas Woodrow)? Marilyn Monroe? Abraham Lincoln? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
2. We know the self-identification of self-identifying entities today, because we find it written in sources, we also have sources today showing the self-identification of self-identifying entities from the past, so self-identifying entities (both present and those from the past) self-identify through sources. (So, the names of self-identifying entities from the past should also be considered.) Cody7777777 (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
3. Obviously they do; the question is whether those names should be given weight. Probably the answer is the same as for extant entities: to the extent that those names bear on common usage. (Current self-names probably affect common usage more, so if we stick with the common-name principle, then current ones will also have more of a bearing on the names we choose.)--Kotniski (talk) 07:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
4. All entities have a name the preferred to be called and in the vast majority of time, almosts always, it is the common name. --Rider 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Self-identifying names are very often, but not always, those in common usage.

1. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
2. Xandar 00:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
3. Cody7777777 (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
4. Right, and this discussion is focused on those times at which they are not.    M   00:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
5. This is a clearly true statement. --EastmeetsWest (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
6. Agree. --Rider 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Of the above, the following participants have been noted as being canvassed. It is up to reviewers of this poll to decide what, if any, impact this has had on the poll.

1. Anietor (talk · contribs · count) twice canvassed by Xandar. Catholic Church is third most frequently edited article.
2. NancyHeise (talk · contribs · count) Canvassed by Xandar; 64% of all article space edits are on Catholic Church
3. EastmeetsWest (talk · contribs · count) Twice canvassed by Xandar; Catholic Church is first (a tie) among the articles edited by this user.
4. Storm Rider (talk · contribs · count) ; Catholic Church is among the ten most frequently edited talk pages.
5. Heimstern (talk · contribs · count)

More rubbish. The people who put up this poll, the proponents of radical change, didn't bother to inform most of the people who expressed a view in the recent conversations. That is very bad practice. Informing such uninformed people, on both sides of the argument, is not "canvassing", but correcting a grave error. Xandar 01:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Yet more discussion

Unfortunately, this is a misstatement of fact as far as my editing is concerned. I am Storm Rider; the Catholic Church is not among my top ten edited articles. The factual statement is that among TALK pages, Catholic Church is 7th most edited article. Of additional interest might also be: that I have been an editor since October of 2004; I have in excess of 16,800 edits; I have never been blocked; my top ten edited articles are Joseph Smith, Jr., The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Book of Mormon, Mormonism, Christianity, Mormonism and Christianity, Mormon, Criticism of the Latter Day movement, Jesus, and West Ridge Academy. I have linked my edit counter page above should anyone have a big interest in me as it is evident that PM obviously seems intrigued, but incapable of stating facts. Strange that it was even brought up here on this page. It is as if she is so insecure about her position that she attempts to sway other editors by attempting to paint individual editors with lies. This is highly inappropriate activity. --Rider 00:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

By this rather loose definition of canvassing PM would also belong on this list as well as he was invited by . Also Catholic Church would be a logical place for editors to come from as most involved in the year-long dispute are quite familiar with this guideline. I discredit this as an attempt by M and PM to silence opposition and as a diversion from the topic to another attack on Xandar. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The difference being that Knepferle asked one editor, and - more importantly - phrased his request neutrally; I was free to come here and tell him that the errors were his - as I have in other cases. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, SR and Kraftlos. The great irony is that the editors now engaging in slander in this subsection are the same editors that created this subsection and asked that it be limited to poll comments, with no discussion. Now that they see they don't have the support they want, they find it necessary to essentially attack those that disagree with them by implying their opinions shouldn't be weighted equally because they may or may not have been contacted by someone they think was canvassing. It's really ridiculous, and demonstrates a level of desperation. They may try and couch it with language so they can say "We didn't say there was anything wrong...we're just pointing someone out and asking people to draw their own conclusions." As you point out, SR, their silly comments aren't even accurate, and are nothing but sad attempts to save their drive to make radical changes. I could just as easily have started another list of certain editors that seem to have started this drive after loosing an argument on another page... lose an argument to consensus based on WP policy, so let's change the policy. I didn't stoop that low. This silly scarlet letter list should be deleted. --anietor (talk) 01:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is blaming you for having an opinion. The problem is, some people with a very particular type of opinion were invited to this discussion. We want to maintain an even distribution of interested people - if 90% of WiP opposes, the random arrival of editors should present similar results. However, if a bunch of people are explicitly invited, this makes the tally not really representative of the real WiP consensus. Unless you all want to suggest that Xandar's canvasing of all editors taking his side of the dispute (and none taking the opposing side) is somehow proper, we should probably stop this discussion before it grows beyond the 1000 words already here. Thanks.    M   01:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to remind you that this a preliminary straw poll so we can generate a proper proposal for RfC. This isn't a vote. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

We don't have votes. If this were all a discussion, and Xandar canvassed, we'd have the same problem.    M   02:09, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I didn't suggest that there are ever votes on wikipedia. I was just reminding you that numbers really aren't at issue here, its the strength of the argument. And also that there will be no legitmate change to the guideline without an RfC. I don't understand why we need to continue pointing fingers. Stay on topic. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 02:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

More discussion

• It is not appropriate to label users, who have posted on this and similar issues, as "canvassed" users. To begin with, M is the editor that put the "Do not add discussion" comment above, and it's ironic that he would insert material that he purports to want to keep out... comments that go beyond the straw poll. IF someone is canvassing, then address the person doing the canvassing. You don't blame people that GET a crank call, you blame the person making it. Stop trying to put a scarlet letter on editors that you happen to disagree with. That's ridiculous. There's a difference between friendly notices and WP:canvassing. And even if it is canvassing, there's an appropriate way to deal with it. This isn't it. --anietor (talk) 19:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a strict definition of what 'canvassed' means. You, too, have been canvassed. If you would like to show that they were involved in this (not merely related) discussion, you can remove the tag. Canvassing is disruptive, and if participants in a straw poll have been canvassed this needs to be noted to prevent votestacking. Note, please, that I did not add the notices myself (I think you've applied both autosignings incorrectly), but that I agree with them entirely. The notices are not discussion, there is nothing dispute-related to discuss. They are information, and directly relevant to the poll. The notices are not 'friendly' - those notified do not work on policy, but they do work on a very specific alleged application of this guideline - the Catholic Church article.    M   20:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

• I actually agree that this area should be clear of clutter. If you want to delete my above comment, AND the silly canvassing tags, go ahead. But if the tags stay, my comment addresses them and should remain here. --anietor (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I'll see what our policies say about where such tags should be, give me a moment.    M   20:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you aware of this section ever having been "used" for anything? Do you in fact know anything about it except what was written in the canvassing message on your talk page?--Kotniski (talk) 12:09, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, if the names of self-identifying entities from the present are considered, then so should the names of self-identifying entities from the past be considered (at least, if their self-identifying name is still part of common usage) since the fact that they are not in the present, does not mean they can't be considered self-identifying entities, we still have documents today which show their self-identification. Cody7777777 (talk) 10:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Certainly; to do otherwise is presentism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree completely that this is presentism. Misplaced Pages has always treated living persons differently than dead people. This policy compliments WP:BLP --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I quite agree with a lot of that, but can't share your conclusion about Burma: surely Burma is very substantially more common than Myanmar, far more likely to be recognized by our readers (remember them?), and thus easily the right name for the article. Same with China.--Kotniski (talk) 10:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Myanmar may be a regional thing, Kotniski. I hear Brits all the time talking about how Burma is so much more common than Myanmar, but in the US, that's not the case (I've pretty much never seen a news report or geographical organization use any name but Myanmar in many years). Heimstern Läufer (talk) 13:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I doubt that, and American is my native language. Official statements use Myanmar, for various reasons - and news reports quote them; but that is the only context in which Myanmar is at all prevalent. I suppose reporters in Rangoon, needing to defend themselves from their sources, form another pool of usage; but that doesn't happen that often. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Never once seen a news report in the US use the name Burma, but either way, we're on a tangent now. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:24, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

See this report from yesterday's Washington Post; but I agree this is tangential. Your position appears to be that self-identification should have some weight in deciding among common names; I have no objection to saying so, but suspect there is a wide disagreement on how much weight. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:29, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

• • Does anyone other than Xandar support that position? I haven't seen anybody do so. Let's find out. (And one other position, which I hope we can agree on; I will offer the logical alternatives) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Since there are only about four of us here, and this has been up only a few hours, it is a mite too early to 6tart saying only one person supports any position. Xandar 00:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Disingenuous. This conversation has been going on for days, and Xandar claimed that Charles Edward Stuart wasn't "REAL" long ago. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
        • FYI, there are several of us that support the position that Xandar is supporting. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
          • Yes, I agree with Xandar's position as well as the multitude of editors who agreed to this policy in the first place that is now being reconsidered by a few people whose only purpose here is to revert a mediated result regarding the name of one article. NancyHeise 01:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

            Canvassed by Xandar; an impressive 64% of article space edits are on Catholic Church

It really is breathtaking that someone who is involved in that Catholic Church discussion (click on her contributions) is accusing others (who have no interest in it) of being motivated by a desire to influence that discussion.--Kotniski (talk) 09:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Is she referring to Catholic church? Like I said, changing this policy would have no bearing on the CC article because CC is both the common name and the self-identifying names. But we have several potentially heated debates that could arise in other articles where the article is not titled at the common name that we can avoid if we leave the policy as it is. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 09:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this should have no bearing on the CC article (though it's weird that one side of the debate consists almost exclusively of people with an interest in that article), and I also agree that we should leave the policy as it is - the policy being written at WP:NC and making no reference to self-identifying names. That being the case, we should alter the wording of this page (which was a backwater before this debate broke out) in a way that is consistent with that policy.--Kotniski (talk) 09:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

A little disingenious, Kotniski, since at least three people on your side of this debate have strong interests in the "Catholic Church" argument. It is also disingenious to say that making the reversal you want, would not change policy. This naming convention is an integral part of the naming policy, and deferred to by the main policy page and even the NPOV policy page. The "contradiction" appears to be in the mind of some of those who want to reverse this policy. In fact similar principles to this page are also expressed elsewhere. Xandar 11:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

It's disingenUous; but more to the point, it's referred to (in passing), not deferred to. Neither policy gives this backwater of a page any precedence.--Kotniski (talk) 12:23, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Please stop correcting people, this is a talk page not an article. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 05:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

You miss the point; referred vs. deferred is an issue of substance; he's claiming they defer, whereas examination will show that they merely refer.--Kotniski (talk) 07:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Both WP:NPOV and WP:Naming conventions, direct readers here to determine how to resolve problems developed under those policies. Kotniski seems to think than when the editors of those central pages did that, they didn't bother to read the very stable content of this guideline, including the long section on self-identifying names. The fact that this naming convention's guidance is so directed to, of itself disproves the allegation that this convention somehow contradicts those policies. The whole argument for sudden radical change to this convention is based on nonsense. Xandar 20:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The self-identifying names of entities which are not living or extant should normally be given far less priority over common names.

• I think this is quite obvious. You cannot self-identify if you don't exist. Only living/extant entities normally need protection under the policy from having a name that they find incorrect or offensive being used to identify them. This is how the policy has worked in practice. In most cases long use of a self-identifying name makes it a common name, so PManderson's Muhammad Ali problem is unlikely to arise, and the other names raised by him above have become common names by usage. Instances like Byzantine Empire show that self-identifying names are not always used of historic entities, so this option ensures that the policy continues to coincide with the reality of WP practice. I add "normally" to the proposition since there are cases where close family might be effected by elements of the policy. Xandar 00:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

• In that case it wouldnt revert because Muhammad Ali was the name he used when he became famous, he had some notoriety before, but Cassius Clay is much less common. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

  "some notoriety before"!, The man had won both an Olympic gold and the world heavy weight title as CC, he was very famous as CC before he changed his name to MA. However be that as it may, I think you have you have totally misunderstood what I wrote -- I was taking a hypothetical position about what would happen today if a boxer called "Cassius Clay" changed his name ... . But see my previous comment at the bottom of the page for more on this. --PBS (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

  Alright, if you say so. This might not be a good example though, because MA is more common now than CC. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 09:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Self-identifying names are always those in common usage.

Self-identifying names are not very often those in common usage.

When common name conflicts with the preferred name of a living, self-identifying entity the common name should redirect or disambiguate to the self-preferred name.

• To do otherwise would conflict with current Misplaced Pages naming conventions, and with good Misplaced Pages practice in articles where the common name like, for example Canadian Indians, or Untouchables is considered inaccurate or offensive by the entity concerned. Xandar 00:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

When common name conflicts with the preferred name of a living, self-identifying entity the common name should be the name of the article.

• The opposing statement above adopts the Sympathetic Point of View, which is contrary to WP policy. Those who believe in the Sympathetic Point of View should edit Wikinfo, which was set up for those editors who prefer it. It is unsupported by the present text of this guideline - or any other. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Long-held consensus cannot be used as an excuse against a change that follows Misplaced Pages's policies.

• This is a quote; it paraphrases policy and is expressly endorsed by as many Wikipedians as have taken part here. Let's see if anyone objects. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

  Where did you get this quote? This makes sense within articles. There usually isn't a good reason to ignore policy, even if the editors there want to. However I think you are meaning the conflict between guidelines and policy. Again I would agree. I think this guideline, as it is written, is in line with the relevant policies WP:NPOV and WP:NCON. There isn't a conflict. I also happen to think that this long-held consensus, codified into this guideline, if changed, would reopen a good number of unnecessary naming debates. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 05:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

  A unanimous finding of Arbcom, on the Macedonia case, which links to the policy it paraphrases. It was applied to at least one proposed guideline. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

How is there no conflict? This guideline says we should prefer one point of view (that of the group that believe they hae the right to use a name) over another. NPOV says we don't take any point of view. Even if you think there is no underlying conflict, the wording obviously needs to be improved to make it clear what our position is. Same with this page v. WP:NC - this page is being interpreted as meaning that we prefer self-identifying names over common names, while NC states the common name principle without mentioning self-identifying names. That there is a conflict (or at least, clear potential for contradictory interpretation) is surely obvious to everyone - hence this debate - what we need to settle is how to resolve it - what actually is WP's position on these matters. There's no point saying that this page takes precedence over the others because the others happen to contain links to this page; that's just dishonest.--Kotniski (talk) 07:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

There is no conflict in the same way that there is no conflict with any of the other exceptions to "Use the most common name" that litter the main policy and elsewhere. Exceptions DOES NOT EQUAL "conflict." Both WP:NPOV and WP:Naming conventions, direct readers here to determine how to resolve problems developed under those policies. Does Kotniski really think than when the editors of those pages did that, they didn't bother to read the very stable content of this guideline, including the long section on self-identifying names? The whole idea that they "conflict" is a nonsense, and dishonest at that. Large numbers of articles exist, which show that self-identifying names are used in preference to "Common names" across Misplaced Pages. This guidance exists to codify the very real situations where self-identifying names take precedence. You own your name, it identifies you. You have a right to change it. That, as this guidance says, is not POV. What is POV is allowing third parties to give an entity a name it finds offensive or inaccurate or both. Kotniski's proposal IS actually POV. Xandar 20:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

That just doesn't make sense. Consider: A belives that A should be called "X", B believes that A should be called "Y". Two points of view. So we report both of them if significant, but don't automatically adopt either of them. What we do to be as neutral as we can is use the name that English commonly uses (which in the vast majority of cases is "X" anyway), because that's (in principle) an objective fact.--Kotniski (talk) 11:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The point is that you can report both views, but you can only use ONE for the article title. Therefore, we need a clean method of choosing which one to use. We choose A believes A should be called X, because A has ownership of his own identity, B does not. The name B chooses for A may be offensive to A, and giving B control over A's identity is a step that can only be seen as heavily POV. It is a fact that A calls himself X. It is an opinion of B that A should be known as Y. Using the majority English name is not necessarily neutral since Anglophones may themselves be the ones imposing the "offensive" name - say, "Aborigine", or "American Indian", or "Untouchable." It may also be inaccurate, as in "British Navy" for "Royal Navy", or based on a disliked anglicisation of a local name, as in Calcutta for "Kolkata". Or based on a historic preference for one side in an ethnic dispute, like "Bressanone" for "Brixen". Using the self-identifying name, objectively determined, solves these problems. Xandar 01:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

"A has ownership of his own identity" is the sort of (meaningless?) philosophical abstraction which we need to avoid here. Encyclopedias deal in hard facts. All your claims apply equally in reverse: the name A chooses for A may be offensive to B. It is a fact that B calls A "Y"; it is an opinion of A that A should be known as "X". The self-identifying name may not be so easy to determine objectively; and it may be ambiguous or otherwise confusing to English readers. There are many factors to be taken into account. (And do people really say British Navy these days?)--Kotniski (talk) 09:49, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Brixen

A few facts may be helpful; I learnt them at Brixen, so I presume they are still there. Brixen and Bressanone are both self-identifying names, one in German and one in Italian; both are native tongues of a significant proportion of the inhabitants of the city; both names have been official since 1946. We chose to name the article Brixen because it is the more common in English; that the city has also a German majority is pleasant and a minor advantage. The argument of self-identification works both ways; the argument that we must use Bressanone for a city in Italy was made persistently, until the evidence of usage was compiled. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:35, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. The naming of the South Tyrol/Alto Adige articles is decided (with one close exception) on the majority language recorded in the 2001 census for each municipality. Most English-language sources do not do this, but generally prefer the Italian name on the grounds that this is part of Italy. So, in addition, the town presented in most English language sources as Vipiteno has its article here under Sterzing, its principal self-identifying name. Xandar 20:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Dicussion

Which section is poorly written? SlimVirgin 00:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The whole paragraph is less than ideal (for instance, there should be a comma after person, and the first sentence repeats itself), but the sentence These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity manages to be vague, irrelevant (to the topic at hand) and controversial, all at the same time. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:37, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

You are assuming that this section does not intend to mean that preferred names take precedence over common name. I think in current practice and as currently worded the entire section does say this. What I would suggest instead of taking part of the section and disputing it, would be to perhaps re-write the section to reflect your common-name position OR we can simply go with a question like "Should the title of an article regarding a self-identifying entity reflect the common name or their preferred name?". We're really talking about two different approaches to avoid taking on a particular POV, it's not a clear-cut case of a simple contradiction or error. These are two different and valid approaches that need to be discussed in a more philosophical and practical sense. So~as a start I would suggest looking at the sentences that these examples support rather than the examples themselves. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what the intention was; that's one of the signs of bad writing. I observe that it does not say that self-identifying names are to be used, but that their importance is to be considered. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• Btw, it's not my common-name position; it's policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

That's somewhat better. I think everyone agrees that some re-writing needs to be done, but there's the underlying issue of how to handle self-identifying entities that needs to be resolved before someone considers re-writing. I have to agree with Xandar's point about RfC, that it really needs to be a draft proposal of explicit changes that will be made to the article. I think a well-worded question might also be acceptable though, one RfC too gauge opinion about the guideline, then another if changes need to be made. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 04:37, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I very strongly disagree; the purpose, probably only valid purpose, of an RfC, is to help draft such changes, by seeing what, if anything, the wide pool attracted by an RfC agrees on. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:05, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you've misunderstood what I said. I think we're saying the same thing. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 09:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Although, I am not really insisting for changes, I agree that those policies guidelines may need some revision. If changes are done, I think we should emphasize somehow the following part of WP:NPOV "encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality.", so in my opinion, when choosing an article name in a naming conflict (especially when dealing with controversial names), I believe we should usually try to choose the one which is the most neutral and less controversial/disputed/offensive name, which is also in common usage and is also part of self-identifying usage (at least, if there are less controversial alternative self-identifying names), not necessarily the most preferred self-identifying name or the most common name. So, if an organization has more self-identifying names, and the most preferred self-identifying name is controversial, I think it is clear enough that the less controversial/disputed self-identifying name should be chosen. We should avoid choosing a controversial name (without any disambiguation) which is claimed by multiple organizations (or which has some other important meanings) only for one organization (that would be subjective criteria). In my opinion, a controversial self-identifying or common name could also be made into a more neutral article title by adding a disambiguation with a description in parentheses to it. If there is no naming conflict, in my opinion, the most common unambiguous name should usually be chosen. Cody7777777 (talk) 10:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Cody's proposal would completely reverse current guidance, and be unworkable in my opinion. Changing names because of third parties claiming to be offended by them would reverse the Republic of Macedonia solution, for example and mean that anyone could claim to take offence at a chosen name like Muhammed Ali and insist that another name of their choice be used by Misplaced Pages instead! Cody's proposals would also disrupt the Primary Topic guideline which gives the name of a place like London England, which is the primary meaning for most people, (although there are other Londons), the clear simple name, without going through disambiguating terms. Cody appears to be starting from the solution he wants to his particular bee-in-the-bonnet naming dispute and designing a policy to give him what he wants on that issue - which is not a good way to work IMO. Xandar 14:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the name of the city London is a controversial topic. (Regarding the Republic of Macedonia it should also be noted that there still aren't any other self-identifying entities, as far as as I know, calling themselves as the Republic of Macedonia, and they also refer to themselves simply as Macedonia which is a disambiguation page.) Cody7777777 (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

We should not adopt names because they are inoffensive; agreed. This undermines the self-pitying arguments for self-identifying names.

The reasoning for the Republic of Macedonia can be found at WP:MOSMAC2. It involves none of the considerations Cody mentions; in fact, consensus dismissed the usage of international organizations, except as a fact about those organizations.

It doesn't involve the self-identification of the Republic either; we use Republic of Macedonia on the grounds (discussed as a question of fact) that

the common name is Macedonia,

this is ambiguous

there is no primary usage; the Republic is probably the most common referent, but not to the degree which WP:PRIMARYUSAGE requires.

We use London for the city in England, not the one in Ontario, because of common usage; see WP:NCGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not true. Self-identification of the name Republic of Macedonia is mentioned in MOSMAC2 itself, and the justification and rationale for the adopted proposal at specifically states: "Where disambiguation is practically needed (to be determined by common sense on a case-by-case basis), "Republic of..." is the simplest disambiguating qualifier that is easily understood, clearly establishes the referent (only independent countries are typically referred to as "Republic of..."), and is compatible with both sets of criteria in WP:NCON: common English use, and preference for self-identifying names." Self-identifying names policy was therefore an essential part of this solution, contrary to the claims of those who want that policy reversed now.

Self-identifying names policy is germane to the titles of a considerable number of articles on Misplaced Pages, for one example Indian Dalits over the Common name Untouchables. The policy has also worked very well in ending disputes. So far no good reason has been given for reversing this policy other than the desire of certain persons to shift the goalposts in certain specific naming disputes - a very poor reason for altering successful policy. In fact not one single occasion where the existing policy has caused a problem has been brought forward, despite repeated requests. Xandar 00:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the name Dalit is also not a controversial topic. (I assume it doesn't also have other important meanings.) And as far as I see, the name Untouchables clearly has more subjective POV and negative connotations than Dalits. (And Untouchables is actually a disambiguation page, showing the other meanings of the term.) Cody7777777 (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar is disingenuous, again. That a name is a self-identifying name is a minor good, and one often obtained from following usage. But the decision itself WP:MOSMAC2#Other articles: Republic of Macedonia is to be used where the formal name of other countries is used and where it is needed for disambiguation but not where Macedonia is unambiguous. It does not appeal to self-identification, even if one author did. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

More than one author used self-identifying names as a principle, and reference to it appears on MOSMAC2. this pretence that the principle doesn't exist is wearing very thin. Xandar 01:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

And how does that apply to the Dalit people? This is a name virtually unknown in the USA, but the title is Dalit? Disingenuous is not answering questions properly posed and then acting as if you are right and the other party is wrong. --Rider 01:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

It may be better known in Indian English, although I would expect Harijan to be more common, even there - and the article suggests it is; alternatively, it may be better known in anthropology. If neither is true, we should not be using it; we are not here to mystify our readership. This is WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS; if some people have violated neutrality, that is no reason for guidance to violate it wholesale. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

To me the simple correction would be to use Dalit, as it is currently being done. The error is when one types Untouchables it is not linked to Dalit, but a disambiguation page that still does not easily lead the reader to the topic of she seeks. This is unfortunately a poor example in that it is not currently in an excellent state. However, when the links are done, not only would a reader find their topic, but more importantly (s)he would learn that the proper name for untouchables is the Dalit people.

You bring up another point, which English should we use as the basis of making decisions? Is it the Queen's English, American English, Indian English, etc. In this example of Dalit, US readers are almost entirely at a loss, but this loss is quickly corrected IF we use the name of choice. Using the name of choice of a given group is just so logical, respectful, and proper to me that I fail to grasp the motivation for changing this long-standing policy. Have I missed examples where we really should ignore the name of choice for a group? Usually names of choice quicly become the common name and mulitple names are/can be discussed in the respective article.

BTW, can someone with the expertise, correct the link so that Untouchables links to Dalit? It would make that article easier to find. --Rider 09:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

We have a (exceptionally widely cited) guideline on that: if we can find an international form, well and good; if not, we should use Indian English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:04, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

That is a logical fallacy to your position. The common term for the world is Untouchables. I don't think I will explain it to you, but just note it. --Rider 15:33, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

StormRider is correct. The excuse for wanting to remove the naming convention in this guideline is that it allegedly conflicts with the Use Common Names policy. (Even though no one has yet produced a single incident where this has caused a real problem). However ENGVAR "conflicts" in exactly the same manner with "Use common names". So logically, since the supposed "conflict" is the excuse here, ENGVAR should be removed too, along with all other exceptions to "Use Common names" no matter how useful. The simple fact is that "Use Common Names" has plenty of exceptions, documented in the various naming conventions, of which this is one. PMANderson comes up with lots of reasons for exceptions to his iron rule when it suits him, which fatally weakens his argument. (As an aside, ENGVAR primarily refers to grammatical usage rather than naming.) Xandar 01:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

ENGAVAR is not part of the Naming Conventions Policy, but WP:NC#National varieties of English is part of policy. It does not conflict with common name unless one is going to reject the usage of more than one form of English in this encyclopaedia. It just means that we have articles named Tram and Gasoline, and sometimes names like Fixed-wing aircraft, but also Cricket and Football. Common name still works but for subjects with strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation, it is the common name used in reliable sources of that nation. --PBS (talk) 21:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I moved some of the discussion down. The above is meant for us to 'endorse' key positions. Some of the added points are not positions, but rather arguments for the positions, which may themselves be supported or not - but let's avoid mixing these and making it difficult to answer the question "just who exactly supports this?" Please feel free to redact or comment out a position if you want to expand on it a bit, but avoid arguing up there.    M   21:55, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Please don't remove positions because nobody has signed on to them after a couple of hours. One reason to post positions is to give people some time to sign on; if there is silence after a few days, they can be struck - but finding what nobody will support is one of the most useful aspects of this exercise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

To expand a little on my comment above: As Misplaced Pages is reactive and not proactive if a boxer called "Cassius Clay" today decided to call himself "Muhammad Ali" it would not be up to Misplaced Pages to alter the name its article from "Cassius Clay" to "Muhammad Ali" until the majority of reliable sources started to do so. However I can see an argument for stating that in such cases, that "modern reliable sources" should be given more weighting than "old reliable sources". Supposing we were writing an article in 2000 on Prince (musician) as reliable sources tended not to use but used "Artist formerly known as Prince" that is probably the name we would have used for an article. The question is when he changed his name back to Prince in 2001 how soon should Wikipeia have followed the trend in reliable sources to go back to the name Prince? Giving weighting to recently published articles, might be seen as desirable. --PBS (talk) 00:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I think some of the editors commenting here need to be much clearer on their use of policy and guideline, (see WP:Policies and guidelines for the difference between the two). This is a guideline and not a policy and as such its wording should not contradict policy. --PBS (talk) 00:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The Cassius Clay example is one reason why the guidance (not "policy" if people want to nitpick) on self-identifying names is needed. I can imagine that if that happened now and his article on Misplaced Pages read Cassius Clay, when he had made it known that this name was now extremely offensive to him, that he would be doing some pretty heavy edit-warring - if not something more strenuous. PBS tries to wriggle out of this conundrum by proposing using "modern reliable sources" (undefined). But what are these? - and how many of these printed newspapers, journals, yearbooks, encyclopedias etc. would have to change their view, and over what time period, before Misplaced Pages could escape from the yoke of "Common name" which PBS and others would saddle us with - and reflect reality? PBS and PMAnderson also do not respond to the Untouchables/Dalits example - one of many, that would mean Misplaced Pages would have a policy of willfully insulting and denigrating tens of millions of people? Xandar 01:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

What would be most likely to happen if a boxer took an Islamic name is what did happen with Muhammad Ali. It would take a while to be adopted, but it would then be English usage - and intelligible to our readers, and we would use it as such. Where we have not adopted such names (as with Prince (musician)), there's usually a good reason why English has not - that his sigil is not memorable to the majority of English-speakers, not pronounceable by anybody, and is unlikely to render correctly on most computers. If we used it, except as an illustration, it would render as a little square box. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:31, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

@PBS Please don't nitpick. I highly doubt anyone is confused as to the distinction between the two. It should only be an issue of one is trying to play a guideline over a policy, not just when someone slips up and uses the wrong word. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 09:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

It should only be an issue of one is trying to play a guideline over a policy Quite right; and Xandar has been consistently attempting to play this paragraph (in his -er- doubtful reading) over WP:NPOV, on the grounds that WP:NAME mentions it. But as long as the rest of us are clear that this is - at best - a guideline, we can continue. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:48, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I was actually very clear in stating that this section is not being played against a policy because it isn't in conflict with the NPOV or NAME. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib)

<-- Back to my comment on modern sources. I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. This is not an unusual position to take, when reliable sources start to use a new name we very much take that into account when deciding which is the correct name to use -- if not we would still be using Peking and not Beijing. I have not tried to define what is meant by modern (reliable) sources because it depends on the entity under discussion. For example if it is a renaming of a genus, then clearly it is over a period in which the usage in the scientific literature changes, but if it is the name of a pop band it would be the usage in the music and popular press. Usually the latter would usually change more quickly than the former. Wording that indicated that the name in reliable sources can change, would help to meet the requirements of cases like "Prince", and "Muhammad Ali". Misplaced Pages does not have a policy of deliberately insulting anyone, we have a policy of "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." We follow the lead of reliable sources, and this guideline must comply with the policy (or it will be ignored). By integrating a suggestion that where the name has changed, the uses in modern reliable sources -- for example "the usage in reliable sources after the announcement of a change of name by a self-identifying entity", would perhaps be a way forward, as it would in my opinion be compatible with the naming convention policy. --PBS (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

By integrating a suggestion that where the name has changed, the uses in modern reliable sources -- for example "the usage in reliable sources after the announcement of a change of name by a self-identifying entity", would perhaps be a way forward. Yes it would; this is a part of our commitment to current usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:29, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

PBS. What you are attempting to do is to remove a simple, effective, and elegant way of dealing with certain problems and disputes, and then trying to add in new and far more complicated ways to solve the problems that removal would produce. This is not an improvement of the guidance. And the "recent name-change" scenario is just one of many such problems. Instead of simply saying "Use the self-identifying name of the entity", we would have to A) pre-define groups of entities that would be subject to a different rule of determining the Common Name. B) For those entities, define a range of "recent reliable sources", which would be checked in the months/years following an announced change of name, newspapers, magazines, yearbooks, (which ones?/how many?/limited to certain countries?/at what point do we poll?) C) Devise a methodology for polling these sources. Even then, there would still be a time-lag of six months to two years before most name-changes aqcuired a majority in recent sources. With some, such as Canton or Calcutta, much longer periods would elapse. The proposed process is just so much worse than what you are saying we should remove, and it still doesn't solve the problems raised by pages like British Navy, Dalits, Canadian Indians, Romany etc. etc. Xandar 01:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The wording of this guideline must be compatible with policy. Usually we use the common name as found in reliable English language sources for the name of our articles, but names do change and it is necessary to alter the name to most easily recognized name, and to do that we put more weight on the name in currently published encyclopaedias rather than ones no longer being published no matter how august the original encyclopaedia was. I am not sure what your objection is as it is usually quite easy to assess if a new name is in common use. The complications you are raising are the same ones as we always face when there is more than one name used in reliable sources, I am merely suggesting a simple rule that we use all the time. As it happens one of the examples you give above Romany was moved from Roma people to Romani people (instead of Romany people) using exactly this consideration, see Talk:Romani people/Archive 8.

user:Xandar, As to your argument about how long and what is the cut off, I would suggest that as a simple rule of thumb if there is not a clear majority in the recent reliable sources then we sticks with the older name until such time as there is a clear majority for a change of name, the more frequently an entity is mentioned in reliable sources, the sooner the change of name of a Misplaced Pages article can be changed.

Also user:Xandar, I am confused as to why you think that Misplaced Pages should not be guided by what the majority of reliable sources use. Surly we are only talking about using the self-identifying name of the entity if it is not clear what the name is in the majority of reliable English language sources, in which case some weighting can be given to the name used by the self-identifying entity. --PBS (talk) 20:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The wording of this guideline is compatible with policy. The editors who wrote the policy explicitly linked to this guideline to explain how that policy should be put into practice. The idea that they didn't read this naming convention before they did so is an astonishing one!

The trouble with your ideas, PBS, is that they introduce a timewarp between an entity announcing its new name and a majority of certain printed sources recognising and acknowledging that. There is no purpose to this. It is more complicated and far less reactive. One of the benefits of Misplaced Pages being that it is up to the moment.

The problem that the makers of this convention saw with relying solely on "the common name in reliable sources" as I see it, are the cases where this majority of sources "chooses" a name that the entity finds wrong, misleading or offensive. Canadian Indians for example. Most sources will continue to call the North American native populations "Indians" simply because it is such common usage - even though the name has nothing to do with the people themselves, who call thmselves Native Americans or the First Nations. Misplaced Pages however, because of redirects, can and should use the names these groups self-identify by. Coptic Church is an example from another sphere. It is used in many sources, and probably will continue to be. However it is not the name that the church, and its members, use. It is not just "the Church of some odd people called Copts", but an ancient Orthodox Patriarchate. Xandar 02:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

You give a lot of credit for perfect and sound writing to the original writers. They aren't really perfect, so a lack of clarity is unsurprising. It seems pretty clear, though, that the guideline is meant to resolve conflicts that can't be resolved using the common names principle. As for your points, I don't quite follow. Should we apply the policy you propose to all articles, and refer to janitors as custodial engineers? (Or pick some other example of political correctness.) You do understand that this applies to more than just the Catholic Church article, don't you?    M   03:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Please stop bringing up Catholic Church, everbody understands the scope of this policy. That's why we're having this discussion. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 03:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

What's the problem with bringing it up? A huge proportion of the editors opposing are involved in that article. Given that I just asked if this was really understood, after providing some reasons for my having doubts, your response seems out of place.    M   03:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

You guys keep saying stuff like "Editor A's last contributions were at Catholic church, isn't that funny that we have so many editors from Catholic church here". Don't presume motivations for other people, you don't really know what people's motivations are. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Especially when a majority of those, pushing so hard for these changes with M have either entered into the dispute on Catholic Church naming or expressed a strong view here or elsewhere on that dispute. Xandar 13:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

<--"The wording of this guideline is compatible with policy." Well not necessarily, it is not uncommon for people to add things to guidelines which are not compatible with the policy. Such differences may not become apparent until the parties to an article naming dispute highlights the difference between the policy and guideline. Also we did not add "reliable sources" to the policy until last year, which meant that many guidelines had work-arounds in them, because the common name is not necessarily the name used in reliable sources (eg Bloody Mary) and just using the most common name as found in all sources frequently differed from the name in reliable soruces. The addition of "Misplaced Pages determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." (Use the most easily recognized name) has made a lot of the wording in many of the naming conventions guidelines redundant. -- PBS (talk) 14:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

That is just an opinion. There is no evidence that using "Reliable sources" solves the problem of names being thrown up that conflict with an entity's self-identification. We've already discussed the delay with name-changes because reliable sources take time to catch up. And there are areas where "reliable sources" simply do not solve the problem. Untouchables, American Indians, Australian Aborigines, British Navy, Calcutta - are all cases in point. The naming principles of self-identification have been used in Misplaced Pages to solve the Gdansk -Danzig disputes, and to provide a basis for the naming of articles about towns in disputed areas of Europe such as South Tyrol-ALto Adige, where relying on "Reliable sources" would leave us in a mess. The self-identification rule is a useful tool. Xandar 01:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

A few questions, which I hope will receive some terse (short, re-checked, not long) responses. To be neutral, we rely on descriptiveness and choose the most common name. So,

1. Do we use reliable sources, or popular usage? Some have implied that we should favor academic usage - I'm unsure about this. While we need reliable sources on how common naming is, there seems no reason to prefer commonality in academia over commonality overall.
2. Do we use the common name used, or the name something commonly 'should' be called? For example, while most people may use the word Gypsy, presumably most actually think that Romani people should be used instead. This is harder to judge, though.

Thoughts? Positions?    M   21:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I favor reliable sources for all things. Popular usage is impossible to verify without using them.

The argument between use of the common name versus the desired name is well demonstrated in these types of examples such as Gypsy or Romani. For me, there is no question that the title of the article is Romani and when people type in Gypsy that are automatically linked to the Romani page. This is where Misplaced Pages aids the ignorant and provides an occasion to learn proper names. --Rider 23:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

We don't prescribe "proper" names, so as to enlighten the ignorant. If I'm reading you right, your position is against one of our oldest and most uncontested content policies - our articles are descriptive, not prescriptive. What I'm wondering is if our titles should reflect what others, especially reliable others, prescribe.    M   01:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I also favor reliable sources per WP:V. I don't think either position would involve throwing out the use of reliable sources or even independent sources. It has also be demonstrated that in MOST cases the common name and the self-selected name are one in the same. However in the case of the conflicts between self-identifying terms and common name, we really need a rule to decide tough cases. That rule for the last couple years has been to choose the self-selecting name, and I'm still not aware of any cases that this has been a problem. If you apply the rule consistently its not taking sides as it would apply to all groups. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

That rule for the last couple years has been to choose the self-selecting name Examples, please, aside from the recent and still controversial move; I have seen no moves though WP:RM which fulfill both conditions: that an article was moved to the self-identifying name, against usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Lots of example have already been given, I'm not a regular at RM so I really don't know what they do there. I guess they entirely ignore this guideline? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

No, they use the rest of it, and ignore this paragraph. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

What I'm wondering, with the first point, is suppose we get two perfectly reliable sources. One says "90% of people use the word Gypsies to refer to the Romani people", and the other says "90% of reputable sources use the term 'Romani people'". Which one do we choose?    M   01:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

This guideline gives a number of tools to determine which is more common. This is also why it is much preferable to simply call the group by what they call themselves. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Format

Would you please stop using "*" when entering your edits. Just use the same ":" that every other editor uses to designate the succeeding edit. This discussion page is a mess and I haven't a clue why this novel approach is being used by editors that have been around for so long. I tried to do some formating earlier, but I feel like I am stepping on toes by manipulating your edits. Would one of you that have been active please try to format the sections so that everyone else can easily read what is going on?--Rider 06:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

• If you will stop attempting to create a private bubble of reality for your favorite articles to swim in, you need not be concerned with the tastes in formating of the rest of us.
• The use of asterisks makes clear when one is making several points in response to a single post, as now; it's quite common among editors who actually converse with a large proportion of Misplaced Pages, and formatting is not difficult; if the post you're replying to uses **:*:, add a : or * on to the right end (**:*:: or **:*:*), and it will work fine.
• The uncivil effort to dictate the format of discussion appears to be more common among isolated editors; it is most undesirable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Septic, that is almost funny, but fails miserably. The standard, you know, how every other editor formats on Misplaced Pages, as in policy for formating discussion is to simply use a ":". The asterisk is used in articles to denote points of interest. When used on a discussion page it results in a feeble attempt to aggrandize your position (that is the funny part). It was a request for uniformity in editing, nothing more.

You have an odd definition of uncivil. It appears that it comes up when you are caught doing something you know you shouldn't being doing and then throw a petty tantrum that any other editor has the temerity to point it out. Our small children act that way, but quickly grew up; I can only hope for the same in your rather pitiful condition. Here's to hope. --Rider 15:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

• The standard, how every other editor formats on Misplaced Pages, as in policy for formating discussion is to simply use a ":". I see; Storm Rider is either unaware that other editors do things differently - or feels free to invent facts. If SR had even read through this talk page, this edit, not far from the top, would have refuted this nonsense; so would many other talk pages. If I do not respond to SR's points in future, this is why. Nor am I inclined to do favors for those who are opposed to fundamental policy, and seek a private bubble in which each institution can bask in its own sacred point of view. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Septentrionalis, you'll notice that I'm for the same position as you, but even I find your edits disruptive. Adding arguments and discussion to the above, and then restoring them, seriously screws up anyone's ability to make out the positions. You've added 5 or so personal ones. Please, just stick to conventions to make things easier. I'll be simply deleting any discussion, or positions not backed by 2 or more people, in the above section. Don't exploit attempts to bring order by pushing your own position.    M   23:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

M, thank you. I felt I was simply making a request that would aid all editors in following the discussion and the result is accusations and stupidity. Why is this so hard? --Rider 15:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

It's difficult because it's frustrating when the opposition acts with serious bias and in very bad faith. For the record, my position is that Xandar's actions here are greatly more disruptive - in reverting all work done to reach a compromise when things stopped going his way, in clear violations of our WP:CANVAS policy through campaigning and votestacking, and through hostile and personal forms of argument.    M   19:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

M, I have had interaction with Xander for some time; at times we conflict, but most times we do not. It is best said that we respect each other's opinion. It is subjective to say one is better than the other. I would fall on the other side in that I see the other editor being more of a hindrance to compromise than Xander. There is no need for such pettiness. Honestly, I don't have the time for this type of quibbling. If there is a disagreement, provide a clear proposal. It is clear that this language has directed editors for some time. It is not productive to propose to just eliminate it. Seeing that this is obvious, what is the next best thing?

I am not a Catholic and never have been. It is very disturbing to the timing of this conflict given what is happening on the Catholic Church article. I don't believe in coincidences of this type. Frankly, it reeks of political chicanery. If you can't achieve your objective by using the rules, change the rules. I reject the effort in its entirety. --Rider 19:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

M. You have tried to misrepresent my position on the Consensus policy talk page, and now you are doing it here. I think it is YOUR sudden unexplained change of position on the issue of self-identifying names, and your blatant misrepresentations of what has happened here that is very suspicious and reeks of very bad faith. I and others were trying to work out a consensus here on your and the proposers original declared aim of trimming and shortening the guidance while leaving its principles unchanged. I thought we were achieving progress through give and take. However mid-way through this process some editors decided to alter the naming convention unilaterally and radically in such a manner as to totally reverse the policy, leaving misleading edit summaries. At the same time they moved the discussion from this page to the Misplaced Pages:Naming Conventions talk page without informing me or the other editors opposed to their changes. This is not only forum shopping, but dishonest forum shopping, by taking only supporters of their changes to the new forum. At the same time PMAnderson and others took the half-developed compromise version and started criticising it in favour of their entirely reversed version. This extreme bad faith is why the long-standing full consensus version of the guidance had to be restored, and why I informed people of the new venue and what had happened. PMA also insisted on edit-warring to place his non-consensus version of the guidance on the page, until the page was locked to prevent that. Throughout this, M, you have said nothing to prevent or condemn any of these improper actions - and you have associated yourself with them by that and by arguing against the position you took when negotiating the compromise. As StormRider says, all this is very suspicious, since no good reason has yet been produced for the sudden fanatical desire to reverse this long-standing and successful naming convention. Xandar 20:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with your ideas that you are acting in good faith, and that others are to blame, especially given your noted COI, your obscene canvassing efforts, and how you're typing up pages (that frankly, I can't be bothered to read) in response to just about everything. It's clear that you're concerned that you'll no longer be able to use this incorrect wording to sway opinion at Catholic Church naming debates. I don't care, there are several thousand or million articles directly affected by your change, and I see this is more important. You need to take a break from this.    M   20:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree entirely with Xandar's summary of events. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Then you admit misunderstanding our conduct policies, quoted below; and come very close to declaring yourself no longer an independent voice in this discussion. Please reconsider. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

By someone who has displayed as total disregard for convention, policy, and civility that statement should stick in your throat before speaking, thinking, or writing. Out of good sense and objective evaluation I am forced to agree with Xander and Kraftlos. Septic, you are anything but neutral and an you greatly hinder any form of compromise or finding a solution. So far all we have is you harping on and doing anything but offer or assist in providing an answer. --Rider 02:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Compromise?

• Most of this page is harmless; much of it useful. This obscure paragraph came to public attention when Xandar started quoting it, for results its mere text will not bear. (And WP:NAME links to all the naming convention pages; this doesn't make any of them more than a guideline.)
• Appeal to a Project or a related Wikispace talk page is not canvassing; in fact, WP:Canvass approves of it: An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion might place such neutrally-worded notices on the talk pages of a WikiProject, the Village pump, or perhaps some other talk pages directly related to the topic under discussion, while still only, or in lieu of, posting a limited number of friendly notices to individual editors.
• However, there seems hope in the mention of uncompleted compromise. There was one here; if Xandar will indicate what he is talking about, perhaps we can combine the two. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really sure that's a compromise. But it would be really nice if we could go back to discussion the guideline without going into personal attacks. You might have been right a while back in considering mediation, though it would help if people would stay on topic. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The compromise position I was talking about was the period when M and others were only saying they wanted to shorten and clarify the Naming Convention, not reverse its meaning. The latter stage of that negotiation is reflected at this point - where a considerable shortening and tightening was being tried out, just before the attempt to completely reverse the guidance took place. Xandar 12:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The trouble with that version is that, although its clarity is much improved, it actually did alter the meaning of the guidance quite dramatically, stating "Where any persons or groups (organizations, cities, political parties, fringe movements) have chosen to refer to themselves by a certain name, the titles of the articles that cover them should use that name, even if they do not have a right to use that name. Which is what some think the long-established version of the guidance is supposed to say, even though it doesn't.--Kotniski (talk) 13:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

It is fairly clear that that was not the consensus interpretation of the present vague language when it was written. ChrisO seems to have come up with this paragraph, on his own, in a single redraft of the page; and it was never discussed. But the oldest entries in the archive all speak of common name, sometimes "common name in context," as decisive. Indeed, this post declares that we must abide by common usage to the extent of not using the adjective Macedonian for the Republic of Macedonia; we can only use it for the inhabitants of ancient Macedon - except in a handful of limited cases where that would make no sense, like Macedonian dinar (Macedon did not coin dinars). Yet the author acknowledges that the "so-called RoM" does call itself Macedonia - as indeed it still does.

This archived section confirms the obvious: Maputo/Cabinda is talking about the Macedonian naming dispute. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO was indeed the major contributor to the guideline, having altered the oprevious stub with material that he had developed and placed on the talk page. That 2005 version contained basically the same self-identified-entity convention as today. The other editors at the time seemed to have no problem with this, and the convention appears successful in resolving conflicts. Maputo/Cabinda is certainly compared with Macedonia/Greece, how far that gets us is unclear. Xandar 00:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

• No doubt other editors ignored it; the only substance is that self-identifying names should be considered, backed up with vacuous hand-waving.
• Since the Macedonia/Greece question has now been resolved, elsewhere and otherwise, the Cabinda parable is now at best redundant. If Schmucky ever gets around to explaining what general advice he sees in it, we can put that in instead; but a dark glass in which each can see what he likes is not good guidance. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

A parable can help in many situations. Xandar 01:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Our guidelines should not require faith to interpret. Nor, as far as I know, is ChrisO an agent of Revelation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Canvassing

Checking Xandar's contribs, I see that he has notified at least 11 editors of the poll, using language like "Those wishing to radically change the WP:Naming conflicts guidance" . All of the editors that I've checked are either involved with the Catholic Church or various religion pages, or have expressed some level of agreement above with Xandar's position. Most have been canvassed on not one, but two occasions. I'm aware that some of those canvassed don't agree that this was the case. It should be noted that at this time all of those voting with Xandar on the two issues have been canvassed. This sort of blatant votestacking is a blockable offence, and obviously an attempt to sway the direction of this poll. Further, Xandar has been warned on this same issue just 6 days ago. Is it reasonable to bring this to ANI, and request that Xandar be blocked to prevent further disruptions of this sort?    M   02:05, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

M is clearly so worried about the fact that he is losing the argument with regard to his and his friends plan to radically alter this guideline by stealth, that he is now sinking to personal slurs, abuse and outright lies.

1 I have indeed informed some other editors with a legitimate interest, including past editors of this article, of developments in the discussion that has been going on here, and I have been informed of other developments myself. That has been absolutely justified under the need to involve concerned and interested parties in the discussions, (originally involving only two people), and particularly to respond to the blatant, improper and underhand edit-warring and WP:FORUMSHOPPING of many of the proponents of this radical reversal of policy.

2 TWICE, the discussion on this proposal has been moved without any notice being given to the participants on this side of this discussion, in an underhand and improper attempt to gain a false consensus without those people present. The first time - when the discussion was moved to the Naming Conventions page, with a misleading account of the issues ,I was fortunately informed by someone who chanced to see it. The second time, when debate was moved back here, again without notification to our side, I informed interested parties. That was perfectly proper.

3 The most recent notices I posted were when this poll for RfC was begun by M and his allies, and ONCE AGAIN it was entered into without any notification to previous participants in this debate. I posted notes on the talk pages of all of those participants who had not been contacted by the organisers of this poll, whatever their views.

4. Additionally it is quite proper to ask interested parties to come and comment, especially if only one or two people are proposing sweeping changes of widespread importance that can affect many interested wikiprojects. This is stated in WP:Consensus. People have been invited into this dispute on the other side too, such as PMAnderson by Knepferle. M himself, after alleging that he was only interested in shortening the guidance while maintaining its meaning, has now revealed that his true purpose was reversing the policy entirely. However instead of debating the points at issue, (he calls that sort of discussion too lengthy to bother reading), he has preferred to descend to underhand tactics, insults and slurs.

5. The disruptiveness, including changing the guidance radically without discussion or consensus, edit-warring, which led to the page being locked, forum-shopping, concealing the change of forum and intemperate abusive posting, has come from M and his allies in this dispute, not those who want to see this long-standing and useful guidance preserved. If anyone needs taking to ANI it is M and some of his allies. I notice that two of the most fervent advocates of reversing the meaning of this guideline received topic bans from Arbcom in June this year for unacceptable behaviour in disputes like this. Xandar 03:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit-warring is always something someone else does (I've lost count of the number of times I've seen X accuse Y of edit-warring when the only person warring against Y was X). Anyway, since there's an optimistically-titled thread "Compromise?" above, can I suggest we leave off the personal bickering at this point (maybe even archive all of this unproductive junk) and focus our minds back on the issues?--Kotniski (talk) 13:42, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Thoughts about this guideline

After being away from this page for most of the day, I was re-reading some of the past conversations, and the previous incarnations of existing policy; I'm starting to feel that we've perhaps given too much weight to the importance of this guideline. Although I really hate the way this conversation has unfolded, I'm starting to think that, at least in the history of this guideline; its only intent was to guide people to the common name. However in practice it seems that a lot of articles that are named by their official names with the common name as a redirect. So here are some thoughts regarding this ambiguity between common name and this section.

Intent of this guideline

All naming convention really says is to go here for "rationale and specifics" regarding controversial names, it doesn't elevate it to a policy level, but merely clarifies what was stated in WP:NAME. The policy itself states that: "The purpose of an article's title is to enable that article to be found by interested readers, and nothing more. In particular, the current title of a page does not imply either a preference for that name, or that any alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles. Generally, an article's title should not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles."

WP:NPOV states: "If a genuine naming controversy exists, and is relevant to the subject matter of the article, the controversy should be covered in the article text and substantiated with reliable sources. Otherwise, alternative article names should not be used as means of settling POV disputes among Misplaced Pages contributors. . . . Where proper nouns such as names are concerned, disputes may arise over whether a particular name should be used. Misplaced Pages takes a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach in such cases, by using the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources; the most common name used in English-language publications is generally used; see also WP:Naming conventions (common names)."

I'd like to go back to the 2005 principles I brought up a few weeks ago; The three key principles are:

• The most common use of a name takes precedence;
• If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;
• If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

For these reasons I think that the policy really was intended to determine the most common name, and to default to the self-identifying names only if the common name is equally or less common than what they call themselves (I think this was mainly in the case of translated names).

Quite reasonable. Can we put these in, and drop the "key to identity" business silently? I'd be content with that. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Exceptions

However, a lot of our discussion has centered around exceptions to the common name principle. And I would like to note this (I'm sure everyone's read this, but bear with me). Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names) states:

Also, some terms are in common usage but are regarded as offensive (Mormon Church, for example). In those cases use widely known alternatives (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). When in doubt, check a mainstream reference work. A term can only be considered offensive if a verifiable, authoritative source can be quoted as citing it as such.

This does not mean that we should avoid using widely known pseudonyms like Mark Twain, Marilyn Monroe, Billy the Kid, or widely known common names of animals and other things. But it does mean that we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading or commonly regarded as offensive to one or more groups of people.

I think its important that we keep in mind that this may re-open naming disputes on other articles, however we shouldn't let the potential consequences stop us from getting this right.

We can reasonably summarize this here, although the case in which a name which is widely regarded as offensive is most common in reliable secondary sources (which is our present test) will be quite rare. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Exactly so, but there may need to be a qualification on modern reliable sources (and possibly national varieties of English), because I am sure we can all think of examples where older sources use names which today would be considered widely either offensive or archaic. --PBS (talk) 11:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Moving forward

In conclusion see the wisdom of using the self-identifying names to avoid conflict, but I think the guidance needs to be modified to that this doesn't become a POV battle between editors, but that if the most common name is deemed offensive by reliable sources, editors should look for the next most common alternative. I think the biggest problem with the text right now is that it doesn't explicitly describe what the article title should be, it just explains that some entities change their names and that those names should be in consideration. I think the wording of this section needs to be stronger and it needs to incorporate both common name AND what to do in exceptional cases.

So moving forward, let's keep in mind that the goal of the title is to make sure articles are easily recognized by readers. POV really shouldn't be an issue in titling a name. Also please note that WP:POLICY says that "Bold editors of policy and guideline pages are strongly encouraged to follow WP:1RR or WP:0RR standards." It's not productive to continue to place a specific version of the guideline on the page until this discussion has completed. Now that page protection has expired, let's avoid another edit war and hold off on any major edits to the guideline.

I suggest a draft re-write of this section followed by an RfC. No accusations or personal attacks, stay calm, remain civil. We're all here to benefit Misplaced Pages, let's do our best and work together. Opposing views should be welcomed as it will make sure we are considering all angles of this issue. Thank you for bearing with my long-winded speech, and I hope it has been at least somewhat helpful. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 12:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, that seems to put things in perspective. I think, though, that if we're going to move to an RfC, we shouldn't be looking at this one guideline in isolation (for a start, not many people from the wider community are going to be that interested in it). I'd be for trying to rewrite all the general naming policy/advice that we have into a fairly concise and meaningful set of principles that the community can accept, and that will genuinely be helpful to new editors (I had a go at doing something like this in my sandbox recently, if anyone wants to take a look)--Kotniski (talk) 13:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC).

Self-identifying names often provoke conflict. For example, Myanmar: Is SLORC a self? does it represent the Burmese people? (For that matter, is there a Burmese people? Does it include the Shan? or is it only some of those under the Burmese military government?) Such internal political questions arise any time we consider self-identfication, although they are sometimes easier to answer. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

States

Misplaced Pages does not mediate problems, we simply report what reliable sources state. Whether the SPDC represent the people of Myanmar is irrelevant. It is their government today. Using the self-identifying name does not support either side of a conflict, but reports the facts of today. Always focus on facts. State the name of the government, how it came to be, the efforts to remain viable, the ongoing conflicts in governing, and world perception. --Rider 15:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

This post expresses a point of view; it asserts that the actions of SPDC constitute an act of self-identification. That's not a fact; that's a whole series of debatable claims, which the Burmese exiles and the world community are presently debating. (Calling the SPDC itself the SPDC is less problematic - and it is also usage.) It should not be written into articles; still less should it be written into guidelines. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

You miss entirely the meaning of neutrality. Misplaced Pages does not care about right and wrong. We take no position, but the SPDC has been in control of Myanmar since September 18, 1988. That is a fact. It is also a fact that their control has been contested. There is nothing else to say (yes, we expand upon those points, but those are the facts). What you are trying to do is determine right from wrong and that is nor within our purview. The current government is the SPDC. There is no argument there is only explanation that their rule is contested. This is rocket science, it is not difficult, but it requires a strict neutrality, which may be something beyond the ability of some editors. Those editors should get a private blog where they can take an emotional and even a moral position; however, that is not the place of Misplaced Pages. --Rider 16:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Please stop ascribing to me views I do not hold.

Nobody said "Myanmar is undesirable because it is espoused by tyrants"; Myanmar is undesirable because it is contested, and (therefore) using it endorses one side in that contest. When - and if - it becomes common usage, that will mean that using it is no longer an endorsement, to any appreciable degree; and in any case our overriding responsibility of communicating with anglophones will settle the matter. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

It is possible that there may be situations, and Burma may be one, where there is no term that is not POV; in this case, we must do as best we can. But it is precisely in those situations that self-identification brings in political questions. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not ascribing a position to you, but if the shoe fits, please wear it proudly or forfeit the weakness of your position. Again, Misplaced Pages takes a position of strict neutrality. It is beyond stupid to question who has been in control of countries for decades. All Misplaced Pages must do is report the facts. It is not taking sides to every report facts. Within every article the contentions, disputes, etc. can be covered, but to do anything but state facts is outside of what Misplaced Pages does and where our policies guide editors. --Rider 19:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Objective use of self-identifying terminology would work well here. The only question to be answered being, does the country really self-identify as X? Xandar 19:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I think Myanmar is a tricky case, I don't think we have any sources which state that one name is particularly offensive. I might be mistaken but I also think that Burma is also prevalent in English. It looks like there's been quite a lengthy discussion on this (see Talk:Burma) --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 19:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Burma is a good example, and the current name was decided on a whole range of issues, but self-identification (by the government of the state) was rejected as a valid argument for the usage of the name in English language publications. Another example which is more interesting is Côte d'Ivoire or Ivory Coast, it was decided that although the Government of the Côte d'Ivoire had requested that usage, that in itself was not justification to use that name (although a minority of people justified the use of Côte d'Ivoire because the State wanted everyone to use it), but because it is now commonly used in modern reliable sources, we should go with that name. Likewise the rapid adoption of "Democratic Republic of the Congo" by reliable sources made that one easy to decide.--PBS (talk) 21:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

• See also East Timor. Timor Leste is the State's preference in all languages, including English; but we do not use it, because English sources had not adopted it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

The case of Burma is an odd-one-out since it appears that Myanmar is also the most common name currently used in English by the objective tests. The keeping of it at Burma seems to be more the result of politics than anything else. Côte d'Ivoire and Kolkatta issues are clear ones of self-identifying names being used where the mass of reliable sources in English has been debatable at the very least. Most newsmedia at the time of the vote used Ivory Coast. And as I have already posted Brixen is used of Bressanone and Guangzhou is used of Canton in spite of English usage to the contrary. and the same is true of Ho Chi Minh City over Saigon, the latter being the much commoner name in English. Xandar 00:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

You can not show what "Most newsmedia at the time of the vote used Ivory Coast" use. Kolkatta is not a good example because of national varieties of English. There has not been a requested move for Saigon only one if Ho Chi Minh City should or should not use modified letters. Also have you read WP:BEAN? --PBS (talk) 11:31, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

And as I have already posted Brixen is used of Bressanone in spite of English usage to the contrary. This was a falsehood when posted; it is now a lie: I was one of those who examined the sources when the issue of how to name the South Tyrol came up. Brixen is one of the few cases well enough known to have a statistically significant representation in English reliable secondary sources, and Brixen is more common; that's why it is where it is.

I would prefer Canton, myself, but I think, like Leghorn, this is my own archaism, against present usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:21, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

"National varieties of English refers to spelling and grammatical usage, not to the naming of entities. And if it did, it would just be another form of the principle of self-identification. As far as Brixen is concerned - a google test in English, removing Misplaced Pages and the Austrian town of Brixen-in-Thale from the results, shows 204,000 hits for bressanone and 170,000 for Brixen. So don't be in such ahurry to breach WP:CIVIL. As far as Canton is concerned, this remains present usage in English "Canton, China gets 6,510,000 English page hits on google. Guangzhou, China, gets 3,320,000 hits. Guangzhou is used on WP as self-identifying usage. Xandar 20:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what is meant by "National variety of English", we are talking about English used in a locale by a native English speaking community/nation, not the English used by nations who's major/official language is something else. The local national spelling of a name is the naming of an entity. Usually general English usage is not different to country specific usage, but sometimes it is, and when it is we choose the local common name. This is part of the consensus that we do not favour American spelling and usage over smaller English speaking nations. --PBS (talk) 12:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Important issues

First of all Misplaced Pages:Naming Conventions is not so absolute as some would make it. The main sections on Common Names are (empasis mine):

Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

and

Convention: Except where other accepted Misplaced Pages naming conventions give a different indication, title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article

On naming disputes, the policy page and the relevant section of WP:NPOV direct the editor to the guidance in this Naming Convention. That does not speak to me of absolute subsidiarity to "Use Common Name". As I, and many other WIkipedia Editors would read this, we generally use the most common name in reliable sources unless there is a Naming Dispute. Then we come here and use the tools on this page to cut through the conflict and determine the most appropriate name. One of those important tools being the use of Self-identifying names.

So. In actual practice Naming Disputes on Misplaced Pages seem often to have been settled using the principles set out here. Both the naming disputes at Republic of Macedonia, (where FYROM is not used) and at Gdansk have used the principles of self-identification to cut through highly-charged political rows concerning who has the right to use the name. In articles covering disputed regions such as Belgium and North Italy, using the self-identifying name of the municipality has become common practice for the title of the relevant articles - even where it may conflict with common name in English. Articles about groups which consider their common name inaccurate or offensive, and entities that have recently changed their names, are all cases where Misplaced Pages practice has successfully followed the self-identification principles set out in this guideline. Self-identification is a very useful tool for dealing with naming issues, and I do not want to see it swept away on a wave of doctrinaire "top-down" policy making. The comment that perhaps some re-opening of naming conflicts across Misplaced Pages is a good price to pay for such a change is not one that I see as being correct. I have yet to see a single example of where this Naming Convention has caused a major problem. So while better harmonization of naming policies is fine, it must not be done in a way that creates more conflict by sacrificing the important principle of self-identifying entities. Xandar 19:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

• WP:NAME treats all the other naming conventions as subsidiary. It mentions all or almost all of them; this does not make them policy; it's a policy and they're guidelines.
• As I, and many other WIkipedia Editors would read this, we generally use the most common name in reliable sources unless there is a Naming Dispute. This is a novel claim; that exception was written for the naming conventions, like WP:NCNT, which deal with names in specific fields of inquiry. Where has anybody, except the few he has canvassed, ever made such a claim?
• Both the naming disputes at Republic of Macedonia, (where FYROM is not used) and at Gdansk have used the principles of self-identification to cut through highly-charged political rows concerning who has the right to use the name. In articles covering disputed regions such as Belgium and North Italy, using the self-identifying name of the municipality has become common practice for the title of the relevant articles - even where it may conflict with common name in English This statement is false, about all four disputes; I was involved in settling three of them.

For example, the South Tyrol communities self-identify by both or all three names; they have also done so officially since 1946. Our guideline on the matter says: Therefore articles about locations in the province of Bolzano-Bozen are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority, except where the widely used English name is adequately substantiated and is different from that of the majority language group. This is phrased backwards, but the meaning is clear, and has recently been supported in a discussion of one of them: Whenever English usage is clear, we follow it; otherwise we use that one of the self-identifications held by a majority. We do this in the reasonable expectation that if we knew all, the name used by 80% of the population would prove to be the common English name.

This is not strictly speaking self-identification; but if self-identification has any place in our naming conventions, it is this sort of supplemental role. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:27, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

• Self-identification is a very useful tool for dealing with naming issues This has been claimed before; where has it ever been successfully used? Note that for this guideline to be used successfully, there must actually have been a discussion, this guideline have been appealled to, and the discussion settled by it (not by an appeal to usage). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Subjective POV

Xandar has added;

In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" as an objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves does not conflict with the neutral point of view policy. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV. In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe

This is worse than the original nonsense. It is a fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans; it is a fact that the Maputans object, and also a fact that the Maputans do not call them Cabindans; indeed, they prevent anyone else from doing so, as much as they can.

But it is not the case that one fact is based in a subjective POV and the other facts are not; both are equally based in subjectivity. One subjectivity is more common at (what are we to call Athens and Skopje?) Maputo City; the other at High Cabindia; both are subjective. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I added nothing. I restored a ssentence Kontiski removed. See below. Xandar 22:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Danzig

Ton quote this guideline:

The Polish city of Gdańsk was called Danzig for many years. The name "Danzig" is not the definitive term today, but it is correctly used in historical contexts (e.g. when it was part of Germany or a Free City).

A true statement, and almost accurate about our guidance (we use Gdańsk before 1308).

But hardly compatible with self-identification, especially one limited to the living; and many of the minority of extreme Polish nationalists who opposed any use of Danzig appealled to self-identification to get their way - fortunately they were outvoted. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

No edit-warring please.

Konitski made some minor changes to the guidance. I left most of them since they were largely drafting sentences, but restored an important sentence on not acknowledging third party objections, that he removed from the Maputa-Cabinda example.

PMAnderson then posted that I had added that sentence. (untrue). He also removed the section entirely. That is certainly not agreed, since removal of the section is a substantive change to the guidance. So I have restored it. Please do not edit war on this. If there really is community consensus to radically change the guideline, it will be gained through normal discussion and consultation. The guidance has stood since 2005. It is important and there is no valid urgency to alter it. So lets go through proper process. Xandar 22:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is. It asserts as it stands that the opinion of local governments is objective. As such, it is an open violation of NPOV; no process of consensus whatever can choose to set aside core policy. I believe ChrisO has learned better; but anyone who now sponsors this atrocity should be banned. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

What part of The principles upon which these policies are based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus is difficult to understand? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article where the Maputan-Cabindan controversy is relevant, then the use of the term should be explained and clarified, with both sides' cases being summarised.

This is not so objectionable as the last, but since the position here was considered and rejected at WP:MOSMAC2, it is bad guidance. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:15, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Your belief that a sentence in a naming convention runs counter to policy does not give you authority to remove it without consensus agreement. Yor belief is challenged, and the sentence has been there since 2005 , without raising problems or controversy. It also makes a point that is quite important. IF the community wants it removed, the community will decide that by due process. You have your tags up saying that the passage is disputed. That is all you are entitled to until a new consensus is reached. Xandar 23:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV

If this is ever restored, dispute resolution awaits. NPOV is non-negotiable. The rest of this non-consensus trash can go through consensus-building. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

It has been there for four years without any of these hysterics. The Misplaced Pages community will decide whether it deserves to remain. Xandar 23:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Septic, why do you threaten so often. Please, if you are going to do something please do it and drop the incessant threats. They are worthless. We have all participated on Misplaced Pages for years (I don't know your lenth of participation nor do I care) so these threats are meaningless. Nothing is scary about any of the processes on Misplaced Pages to achieve consensus. However, should you continue to edit war and think that you are the only one that matters, that type of action results in being blocked. --Rider 00:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Who is "Septic"? --PBS (talk) 12:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

What part of WP:1RR arent we understanding? Don't make major changes to the guideline, you dont have a consensus. Xandar is correct in reverting the changes. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

It appears you guys are just changing the guideline however you want anyway. I interpret this as a big slap in the face and an indication that you are not interested in consensus or discussion. We have a problem here. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Who are you addressing? Seems to me that recent changes are uncontroversial and help to move towards a version that all might be able to accept. If you disagree with any of the changes, can you say which and why?--Kotniski (talk) 11:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I guess this didn't turn into an edit war, so I guess my comments were a bit pre-mature. I just want to see us work together on this. As long as we're not reverting eachother this is fine. If someone reverts your changes, don't add it back. Discuss. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 19:20, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I have again had to revert a lot of substantive and non-consensus edits to this naming convention. Some attempt to revrse the meaning of a section, and others would make sections so confusing as to be completely meaningless. We do not have agreement on these proposed changes. Xandar 19:44, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Your revert war grows tiresome. If you had said which sentences you disagreed with in the fairly anodyne expression of what we actually do, we would have removed them, or amended them; that's what consensus editing is: It remains policy that Consensus does not require either that you get prior "permission" to make changes or that the acceptance of your changes afterwards be formally documented. Edits that are neither changed nor removed are always presumed to have consensus until someone actually challenges them. Consequently, you should not remove a change solely on the grounds that there is no formal record indicating consensus for it: instead, you should give a policy-based or common-sense reason for challenging it.

There's nothing wrong with a page that expresses only the opinion of a faction; we call it an {{essay}}. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Zurich

Note that anglicised versions of names are not simply native names with diacritics removed; "Zurich" is still a German name, as it is merely a spelling of Zürich without an umlaut. A name with a substantial difference in spelling (such as Moscow for Moskva, Munich for München) represents a true anglicisation of a native name.

This is both a claim about the linguistic term Anglicization and guidance; both are debatable. The contention between Zurich and Zürich has not ended, and this is unlikely to end it; it is certainly not a consensus position. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... I think we should focus on the self-identifying terms and avoid changing sections that aren't causing problems. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 19:21, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't cause problems because this page is so little known; but the diacritic situation has been discussed much more recently at WP:UE#modified letters and WP:GERCON; this effort to sweep the situation away is no longer practice; so why keep it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson

This needs to go. Zurich is a very bad example, and the paragraph itself could be read to be in conflict with the convention and WP:UE guideline. The wording if it needs to be in here should follow the convention wording "The choice between anglicized and native spellings should follow English usage (e.g., Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard and Göttingen, but Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence)." --PBS (talk) 11:38, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

More edit-warring

M, Kotniski and PMAnderson are AGAIN radically altering the long-standing naming convention in ways that do not have consensus, and then edit-warring over the proper reversions. To quote Kraftlos above : "What part of WP:1RR arent we understanding?" Some people seem to think that their personal preferences override everyone else's, and they can just put whatever they want into the Naming Convention despite what everyone else in the Misplaced Pages community thinks. That is not on. If some people want a new Naming Convention, they havee to go through the proper process - not try to bully their way forward. I think that this continuing attempt to impose radical changes on the guidance by other than the proper process shows that they are not at all sure that their arguments can win out if community-wide consensus is tested. Xandar 21:47, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The straw poll suggests, very strongly, that your position is in the minority. Stop trying to invoke "consensus". If something is incorrect and contradictory, but has been that way for a while - well, this is not consensus. This is a problem that we have to work through.    M   22:37, 29 August 2009 (UTC)- with his extensive canvassing - has half the sentiment in this discussion. That shows that present consensus does not exist for any of the contested expressions. That's not consensus; now can we turn to what actual objections he has. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The "straw poll" suggests nothing of the sort. There is no consensus for the sweeping change to this guidance that you seem in a terrible hurry to impose. Trying to change these guidelines by improper methods is not consensus. Changes to guidelines and policies require community consensus - as you know. Xandar 22:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

So what are your substantive objections to the tweaks we have made to bring this in line with policy and other guidelines; or is this more WP:IDHT? I quote the revised texts below; what do you actually disagree with? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The "tweaks" reverse the naming convention - with consequences that clearly haven't been thought through. I see no need for this hectic rush to reverse a four year-old convention. Any proposals that are brought forward in this respect need to be discussed in as broad a forum as possible, and the implications fully considered. Xandar 01:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Subversive text 1

Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term.

Misplaced Pages should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the facts that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans – and that the Maputans object to that usage – are objectively true: both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claims that the Cabindans have or do not have a moral right to that name are purely subjective. This is not a question that Misplaced Pages can, or should, decide.

In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" as an objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves, and what English-speakers call them, does not conflict with the neutral point of view policy. We should not adopt the names used by the Maputans as substitutes for "Cabinda" if they are not predominant English usage. Thus, we should not defer either to the Cabindan subjective point of view, nor to the Maputan subjective point of view. Not using a term simply because of Cabindan or Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan or Cabindan POV. In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.

This should not be read to mean that subjective points of view should never be reflected in an article; for example, the Cabindan controversy may itself be a reasonable topic for an article, in which case the positions of both sides should be explained.

This fundamentally changes the important principle that in a naming-conflict, the self-identified name should predominate over a name that a third party wishes to impose. In the final paragraph Sentence 2, states (in a roundabout way,) that we can prefer the name given to the Cabindans by the Maputans if it is "predominant English usage." That reverses the policy of the current guidance, and makes the whole passage worthless! Adding "Cabinda" and "Cabindans" to the penultimate sentence, completely destroys the meaning of the sentence, namely that the Cabindans have a right to self-identify and that Maputan subjective objections to that choice should not be deferred to. It is more than a change of wording it is a reversal of principle. Xandar 01:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Is Xandar arguing, therefore, that we should adopt the Cabindan PoV? Why should we? Why is it not equally subjective? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Subversive text 2

Some editors draw a distinction between a self-identifying entity and an inanimate or non-human entity. An inanimate geographical feature such as a sea or mountain, or a non-human entity such as an animal, does not have a name for itself. Thus the English name Mount Everest is just as arbitrary as the local name, Qomolangma. The use of "Mount Everest" as the definitive term in Misplaced Pages is simply a matter of convenience, as the mountain is far more widely known by the English name than by its native Tibetan one. (How this applies to inhabited mountains, like the Harz or Montenegro, is unclear.) Similarly, the English name cobra for a type of snake is just as arbitrary as the Indonesian name "ular tedung", but the English name is used in the English Misplaced Pages because it is the standard name in the English language.

A city, country, people or person by contrast, is a self-identifying entity: it has a preferred name for itself. This self-identifying name is often, but not always, usage, and therefore recommended by our naming conventions: We use Danzig for the historic city which now calls itself Gdańsk, and Gdansk or Gdańsk when discussing the modern city. The man formerly known as Cassius Clay now calls himself Muhammad Ali, and we do likewise, since it has become normal usage; use of Cassius Clay - except for some descriptions of his early life - would be tendentious and obscure. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names.

Some will hold that this self-identification has deep philosophical significance; others will hold that, like a rose, a city stands without a name, and we hold the bare names.

Omne sentence of this Xandar explicitly agreed with above; we can reduce to that if necessary. But which other sentences does he dispute, and on which grounds? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The Ist Paragraph states "some" editors think, instead of stating the difference as a fact.\

The difference is an unsourced claim about the real world. They generally should not be in guidelines, unless there has been source based discussion showing that they are consensus assertions about the world. (Even then, they should be used only when necessary.) Citation please. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The 2nd paragraph uses weasel words in order to remove the statement in the original that self-identifying names should be used. It merely states that we use the names in the examples because they are currently the common names. That is not true. And if it were true of these examples, then we would need better ones such as First nations that illustrate the need for, and the use of, Self-identifying names to solve naming disputes. Your paragraphs actually say nothing but "use common names" and in that state would be completely redundant! Xandar 01:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

But we do use Gdańsk (and Danzig as a historical name) because our sources do. See WP:NCGN. In the old (now superceded) discussion at Talk:Gdansk/Vote, there were some people who argued for self-identification; but they used it to support never using Danzig, even when discussing 1759 or 1939, and were voted down. Thus this is incorrect as a statement of Misplaced Pages history and as guidance. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Subversive text 3

If this guideline appears to conflict with NPOV or our naming policy, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions, policy takes precedence and this page should be changed to reflect that.

This page was written to assert three principles:

• The most common use of a name takes precedence;
• If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;
• If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

Almost all of this is policy; some of it quotes policy. And, as always, the last part of WP:BRD is Discuss; what parts of it does Xandar disagree with? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:28, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

But if Xandar actually disagrees with some sentence of it, that sentence can be modified or removed. All he need do is say what, and what his problems with it are with the substance of it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

My problem is quite simple that you are attempting to change THIS GUIDELINE against consensus, so that it suits your own agenda. The guidline is not here to repeat what the other guidelines say, but to state what principles should operate on the occasion of a NAMING CONFLICT. Your version above states a "conflict" that does not exist, except in your own mind, and reverses the order of this guidance and that in the Manual of Style that Self-Identifying names should be normally used as the names of self-identifying entities. The construction above artificially creates a new hierarchy which puts the so-called "common name" above the self-identifying name of the entity in the case of Naming dispputes. That REVERSES the existing Naming Convention, and would lead to hundreds of new disputes across Misplaced Pages.

No good reason has been put forward for such a radical reversal of the guidance, which as been working well for 4 years, (examples in the posts above) and not ONE example of it causing problems has been produced, despite multiple requests. Xandar 01:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not a convention (which are on the policy page) this is a guideline. --PBS (talk) 12:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar cries "Consensus; consensus"; but there is no consensus. The three principles quoted above were part of the original wording of the page. Indeed, they were added in the same edit as the bafflegab on the key significance of self-identifying names that Xandar finds so vital; f one has a claim on our attention for age, so does the other. The three principles are what Misplaced Pages actually does about naming conflicts; that's what guidelines should do. Now if Xandar can (for once) make clear what he disagrees with, we may be able to reach an accommodation, as with Schmucky; but he has to say what he wants and why, for people to understand him. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I do not regard the above sentences The construction above artificially creates a new hierarchy which puts the so-called "common name" above the self-identifying name of the entity in the case of Naming dispputes as serving this purpose. It's not a new hierarchy; it's the old hierarchy, in place when this page was written, reflected independently at WP:NCGN - which is as old, and a wider consensus, and used daily.

We use the common name, rather than the self-identifying name, when they differ, for two reasons:

• It's good, clear, comprehensible, English - even when the self-identifying name is undisputed. If we used Federal Republic of Germany instead of Germany, Germany would read like porridge.
• It puts the decision of what name to use out of our hands. When the self-identifying name is not common usage, that is often because there is a question of who is authorized to do the self-identification. We do not make that decision; we do what our sources do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Confusing example

I've moved this out of the guideline, because it's unclear and may conflict with Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions, which is policy.

Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term.

Misplaced Pages should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the facts that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans – and that the Maputans object to that usage – are objectively true: both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claims that the Cabindans have or do not have a moral right to that name are purely subjective. This is not a question that Misplaced Pages can, or should, decide.

In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" as an objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves does not conflict with the neutral point of view policy. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV. In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.

This should not be read to mean that subjective points of view should never be reflected in an article; for example, the Cabindan controversy may itself be a reasonable topic for an article, in which case the positions of both sides should be explained.

What does this actually say? That we should or shouldn't use the term "Cabindan"? SlimVirgin 22:54, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Don't remove long standing text simply because you don't understand it. Yes, it says use Cabindan for the group of people that call themselves Cabindan. It should be worded better, and shorter, but since a few weeks of discussion hasn't led to a new consensus on how to word it nothing has changed.

It says one group of people does not get to decide the name of another group of people, for one. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

It is intended to say that we should use Cabindan, because the Cabindan government says so. We should ignore the protests of the Maputans, who object to "Cabindan", because they are a subjective POV. The implication that the Cabindan Government does not express a subjective point of view is why this former guideline is under dispute. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

reply to Schmucky: (a) The example doesn't say what you're saying it says; perhaps it's meant to, but it doesn't. It currently doesn't say anything, and therefore shouldn't be on the page -- this isn't a question of agreeing or disagreeing with it, it's just that it's not coherent. (b) I think we should use a real example, rather than a confusing invented one. (c) If your interpretation of what it wants to say is right, it violates the policy, which says we should use the common English-language term, no matter what the Cabindans call themselves:

"Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity ... The names of Misplaced Pages articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists. Misplaced Pages determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." SlimVirgin 23:17, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Well yes, that's why there are so many unexplained reversions on this page; the existing text, casually written by ChrisO four years ago, and never discussed until recently, can be used to justify following the point of view of Governments; whether the Government of Greece, which is meant by Maputo; the government of China which Schmucky happens to support, or any other Official Cause. 23:26, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

If an example is to exist, it needs to be real. The problem with these made-up ones is that they tend to get complicated and hard to follow. Secondly, any example should make clear that it pertains only to when there is no most-common English term, and that where there is, that's what gets used. Exceptions may apply to BLPs, in that we're supposed to be extra sensitive to their concerns, but otherwise the policy applies. SlimVirgin 23:33, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

If you want to make it real, change Cabinda to (Republic of) Macedonia, and Maputo to Greece. The advice it gives will then be redundant with (where it isn't inconsistent with) WP:MOSMAC2; but it will be real. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www.usopen.org/images/pics/large/b_004_AAKD.jpg

Do you dispute the conditional, If this guideline appears to conflict with NPOV or our naming policy, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions, policy takes precedence and this page should be changed to reflect that.? This does not assert that it does conflict, nor that it appears to conflict, but what to do if it appears to conflict, which is in fact one of the standard rules for guidelines. See WP:POL. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This Naming Convention does NOT violate the policy - any more than does any other EXCEPTION to the policy. What is hard to understand about that? The Policy Page itself says that the policy stands UNLESS another Naming Convention says otherwise. This convention has been here since 2005 now. It is established guidance, linked effectively from the policy pages, and should not be removed because certain people either do not understand it - or else want to Game the System in relation to the Catholic Church article - WHICH SEEMS TO BE THE SOURCE OF THIS SUDDEN AND EXTREME DESIRE TO ALTER LONG-STANDING NAMING GUIDANCE WITHOUT CONSENSUS. Xandar 00:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

And #Subversive text 3 doesn't say this page violates policy; please read what you revert. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:30, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar this is not a naming convention it is a guideline to the Naming conventions, and to be any use as a guideline it needs to explain and enhance the conventions not contradict them. --PBS (talk) 12:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Schmucky

I applaud this edit and thank Schmucky for proposing a new text, on which we may agree. As it happens, I do agree; that's an invalid criterion. Dispute? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Would it not make more sense to redirect this page to the policy, and add something brief there if the policy doesn't cover these points? SlimVirgin 00:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This page is already done in summary style on WP:NAME, which summarizes several of its sub-pages. This needs to exist independently to avoid overwhelming the rest of the text there. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I have not re-read this to look at what it says about

1. Third parties (who may be very vocal on Misplaced Pages) insisting that X be called Y.
2. How to resolve disputes among several claimants (ie, Liancourt Rocks dispute has broken out to fights over the names of the rocks several times).

SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

This page doesn't really say much, and what it does say comes close to contradicting the policy, and earlier did contradict it. It could easily be summarized so it'd be short enough not to overwhelm the policy. SlimVirgin 01:12, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This is YOUR opinion, and it is NOT consensus opinion. You DO NOT change policy radically in this way without gaining community-wide consensus - and certainly not at the behest of people who have used the dirty tactics that the proposers of this change are undertaking, including threats, lies, edit-warring, forum-shopping, taking false cases to AN/I - all in the aid of getting their way in a naming dispute. Is this really what you want to support, SlimVirgin?

The new section at the top of the article would make self-identifying names unusable unless they were also common names - making a nonsense of the whole guideline. I am wondering why this sudden virulent hatred of the principle of self-identifying names?Xandar 02:03, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I very much agree with you that people shouldn't change long-standing guidelines against consensus, but the problem with the disputed section of this page is that it directly conflicted with its related policy. It's also not clear from looking at this talk page that it did have consensus, but even if it did on this page, the conflict with the policy overrides it, because policy is always assumed to take precedence. What you would need to do is try to get consensus to change that first.

What are the issues that you feel the addition of this section would solve? I'm asking because the section really is very unclear, and as written it's unlikely to solve anything, unless I'm missing something. SlimVirgin 02:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I, along with quite a few others, both here and on the Naming Convention talk page, do not think there is a contradiction between WP:NAME and this guidance. WPName says that Common names should generally be used, unless' a naming convention states otherwise. THIS is a naming convention that has been stable since 2005, and it says that in certain circumstances, where there is a naming conflict, and where a self-identifying entity exists, the entity's own name for itself should be used. There are many good reasons for this, the principle is used in practice, and no problems have developed because of it. If you want to know what the original writers of the guidance think about the alleged conflict why not ask them? Chris O and Uncle Ed are still live on the system.

As for the long example. I believe its main purpose is stating that 3rd party objections to a 1st party's self-identifying name should not be relevant Misplaced Pages naming considerations. If we open that avenue up as a legitimate arguing point, the numver and intransigence of naming conflicts could increase tenfold. Xandar 02:30, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Can you point me to the section of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions that you believe makes it compatible with the section you want to retain here? SlimVirgin 02:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

These are the main points of WP:NAME where conflict is alleged

• WIkipedia:Naming conventions Use the most easily recognized name
• Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature

The word used is "generally", this is NOT an absolute, that forbids any deviation.

• Use common names of persons and things

• See also: Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict
• Convention: Except where other accepted Misplaced Pages naming conventions give a different indication, title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article (making the title unique when necessary as described in the following section and in the disambiguation guideline. Where articles have descriptive names, the given name must be neutrally worded.

This states quite clearly that common name applies "except when Misplaced Pages naming conventions. (This is one) give a different indication". In other words when a bona fide wikipedia Naming Convention says something other than "use common name", that is to be followed. The policy defers to the conventions on this. And this convention is specifically mentioned right under the section title. A little odd if this long-standing convention was in major conflict with the policy? No? Xandar 03:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC) Anyway. It's now 4am here. I have to go. Xandar 03:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Not odd at all, our dozens (hundreds...?) of guidelines are ill-managed and often poorly-written. They have pseudo-philosophical fluff like "An inanimate geographical feature such as a sea or mountain, or a non-human entity such as an animal, does not have a name for itself.", and blatant POV like "These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity." (so? the other side's claims are "key statements" of its identity also, whatever that means).    M   03:21, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I assume this stems from the Catholic Church debate. Personally I see no harm in calling it "the Catholic Church," because everyone knows what that refers to, but "the Roman Catholic" is overwhelmingly more common (eight million to 48 million on google). You're right that the policy shouldn't say "do X unless a guideline says otherwise," because then it's basically saying it's not a policy. But the more immediate problem with the disputed example is that it really didn't say anything. I'll have to go through the history to see if it was ever more definitive. SlimVirgin 05:08, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

You must have done your google search wrong. Listing Catholic Church without Roman Catholic Church gives 18,200,000 hits, and just listing Roman Catholic Church gives 4,060,000 google hits. This tends to illustrate that this guidance is not strictly necessary to defend the Catholic Church renaming. Some of us just believe that this long-standing guidance is very useful, makes relevant and imoportant points and should not be changed in a rush by a group of interested parties without general across-wikipedia consensus. Xandar 11:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

• "the Catholic Church", 8,260,000

• "the Roman Catholic Church, 48,200,000.

SlimVirgin 21:54, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I've just clicked those selfsame links and they give me:

• The Catholic Church, 5,270,000
• The Roman Catholic Church, 2,150,000

which is more in line with our other results. You're doing something wrong. Xandar 22:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I get nearly exactly the same results as Slim Virgin. older ≠ wiser 22:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Google sometimes redirects to your country's engine, or a personalized search, which you have to disable. When I searched using both google.com and .co.uk, I got results identical to SlimVirgin. I'm not sure what your specific configuration is, but the unfiltered defaults are as SlimVirgin states.    M   22:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

There's something wrong with your searches which are wildly out of line with the results everyone has got before this. I expect that you are searching the words Roman Catholic and Church independently rather than the phrase - which is the only way to come up with figures like that. Xandar 00:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar, the problem is that this page is not a naming convention, in that it doesn't really suggest a clear direction, so I'm not sure it can claim to be specific enough to overrule the policy, with the policy's permission, as it were. Perhaps more importantly, the policy is clear that, where a title is longstanding and trying to change it would only cause drama, it should be left. So really the Catholic page should be left as it was (and I say that without knowing what it was before the current dispute). SlimVirgin 05:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

No you have got this entirely wrong. The head of this guidance page states clearly that this IS a naming-convention. And it is listed at the head of the section of the WPNAME policy that states naming conventions can be deferred to. Your point on Catholic Church brings us back to the true nub of this exercise. The Catholic Church page was moved for several reasons the most important being as a result of a five month official mediation following continuous argument over the content and the first sentence. It was discovered that the page should rightfully be at Catholic Church, and that would solve the long-running problems. So it was moved following a consultation. The simple point is that this guidance should not be changed (in fact reversed) in the indecent rush that this group wants to change it in, in the light of disagreements over a specific article. That seems to be what is quite wrongly, happening here. Xandar 11:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a guideline not a naming convention. The naming conventions are in the naming conventions policy page. Also it seems to me that you are just about alone in you opposition to bringing this page into line with the policy page, because if it is in line with policy and not an exception to policy you would not be so firm in resiting these changes. As I have said else where, until a year ago when the Policy was supplemented with the requirement to asses common usage with reliable sources, may guidelines, used work arounds to overcome the most popular distortions of the names used in reliable sources. Since that proviso was added to the policy this naming convention guideline like many others contains paragraphs that are now redundant, at best and conflicting at worst. --PBS (talk) 12:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This clearly a Naming Convention. It says so at the top of the page, and this is listed in the Category . There is no doubt about this. The naming conventions, including this one are also on the main policy page. And changing from "Use Common names", to "use Common names as found in reliable sources" makes no effective difference to this convention - unless all the other naming conventions are also redundant. If so there will have to be major changes in one clean sweep. Xandar 22:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Please be careful about offering a suggestion about the Catholic Church article name until one understands the history and the references involved that support the name Catholic Church. Slim, it is great to see you enter this conversation. I think it has been a few years since we were editing the same article.

For me, what I hope will result from this entire conversation is that Misplaced Pages guide editors to choose the preferred name. Why? Simply because I believe that ignorance is not excuse for stupidity or consciously choosing to use names that offend. In the case of the Catholic Church article, it is absolutely clear that the church prefers to call itself Catholic Church. Every comment that seeks to refute that almost unanimously confuses a name with their doctrinal belief. Specifically, the Catholic Church does not equal catholicism, but is only a part of it; but it is the Catholic Church. All other churches that claim to be part of catholicism, all of them, use different, preferred names. Another example, (one that is negative, but can easily be supported if the common name were the rule), queer has over 14,400,000 hits on Google; homosexual only as 12,400,000. Should we use Queer for the article title for homosexual? Of course not. We should use the name that is preferred and proper. Myanmar and Burma are a similar example. Myanmar has twice as many hits as Burma, but what is the title of the article? Burma. And why is it Burma, because of the misapplication of current policy. The fear that to use Myanmar "condones" the actions of the current military government that took over the country in 1988. It is most definitely POV not to call the country Myanmar after over 20 years of that being the name of the country, don't you think? To even bring up NPOV is a misunderstanding of NPOV and a misapplication of policy. It is unquestioned that the country is ruled by a military government; just state the facts. I have run on too much, but I really detest stupidity and the attempt to fight politics on the pages of Misplaced Pages. Just state the facts and move on.

I think it correct is that preferred names must be supported by reliable sources and that they must be used always. If there are those who are ignorant of the preferred name, their ignorance should not, must not, rule the day. Misplaced Pages must be a source of correct information.

Finally, all conflicts to names are content for the article, but they must not affect the name of the article. Simply because someone is offended by another's chosen name does not merit changing an article's name. To be offended is a daily occurance. Being offended is a personal problem and not a reason for all others to change their identity to please me. That just reeks of so much political correctness that it curls my toes. --Rider 07:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The point we're making here is quite simple, and should be accepted by everyone. A major change is being pushed here. The guidance has been quite stable without problems since 2005. Follow practice and leave it as it is until the Whole community is given the chance to decide what change is proposed, and whether it is an improvement. I don't care how strong these guys views are. They shouldn't be trying to change long-standing guidance that is important for many other projects, unilaterally. Xandar 11:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Since last year with the introduction of "Misplaced Pages determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." to WP:NC , so "Another example, (one that is negative, but can easily be supported if the common name were the rule), queer has over 14,400,000 hits on Google; homosexual only as 12,400,000. Should we use Queer for the article title for homosexual? " are not relevant (and queer is bound to have thrown up lots of false positives). What is relevant is common usage in reliable sources. --PBS (talk) 12:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

You are mistaken. There is no such rule, and for good reason. A 'page that has been here a while' only has consensus if it's still supported, and the number of people opposed clearly indicates that there is no longer any consensus for keeping it. You're asking other editors to let you keep the page as-is, when the page apparently contradicts policy and misrepresents community-wide consensus. You need to stop reverting, and start adjusting the wording of the guideline in a way that can satisfy everyone.    M   20:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The number of people opposed does not mean there is no consensus for this naming convention. There has to be a consensus to make substantive changes to an established article. And the need is even firmer when that article is a guideline or policy.

See Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines

"Such pages are taken to be accurate until a consensus process involving the general community shows otherwise"

You and your friends are by no means any sort of consensus to reverse or substantively change the content of this Naming Convention. And no matter how much you repeat that - it doesn't make it so. Major changes need community consensus. And tne page does not "contradict" policy as has been adequately explained to you. Policy states clearly that these guidelines provide EXCEPTIONS. The "contradiction" argument is just an excuse to attempt unwarranted and non-consensus changes. The deference to this guideline over many years by both Naming Conventions and NPOV, shows that there is not any contradiction. So come off that one. Xandar 22:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, yes, the number and arguments of the opposition do demonstrate that there is no consensus for Xandar's text. What would be no consensus, if this is not? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The consensus is for the long-term version of this article - as you know well. That is why you have been so desperate to try and change by improper methods. There is NO CONSENSUS for your proposed or attempted changes, and just squatting on this article with your friends reverting constantly to your position does not and will not produce a consensus for change, Xandar 22:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, there is no consensus; guidelines should not state what is not consensus; this is why silence would be the simplest solution to these claims. Your words still ignore WP:CON: Consequently, you should not remove a change solely on the grounds that there is no formal record indicating consensus for it: instead, you should give a policy-based or common-sense reason for challenging it. and silence can imply consent only if there is adequate exposure to the community. These vague words about slef-identification have never been discussed, and seem hardly ever to have been used -and not successfully- until the recent controversy; there is no consensus they are valid, there never has been, and now that they have been noticed, half those who discuss them oppose them. That's not consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The "words about self-identification" are NOT vague - that is your problem with them! And you have zero proof that they have never been discussed. The section was examined by the original editors of the page in 2005, and were later prominently linked to WPNAME and WPNPOV. Your allegation that the convention has never been used is unproven and flies in the face of the facts already presented on this page. Misplaced Pages is littered with self-identifying names, which are not also the Common Names.

On changes WP:CONLIMITED says:

"In the case of policies and guidelines, Misplaced Pages expects a higher standard of participation and consensus than on other pages. In either case, silence can imply consent only if there is adequate exposure to the community." Xandar 00:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Fine, whatever. Kraftlos just posted to say that those words are a bit vague; and they were used by (on Macedonia, as it happens); but enough. If I do not reply to you in the future, silence will imply dissent. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:30, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the text is vague. It uses an example to communicate ideas that would be better communicated by a clear sentence like in X case do Y. Instead it says something about how important self-identifying names are and that they should be used within articles; instead of explaining how it relates to article titles.

However, you guys are getting it backwards. A previous consensus is what was on the page before this discussion began. Yes, now the text is disputed. But we don't have a consensus to change it yet. The default is to leave the previous text on the page until there is a consensus to change it. I really think these changes should be made on a subpage as a draft. We can't have 100's of edits to this page as we're going back in forth when we don't even have an agreement on how this guideline should be changed. And no, silence can't be interpreted as dissent; that's not how things work here. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I may be assumed to dissent from any repetition of matter to which I have already disagreed, and I do. That should cover most of Xandar's posts.

But as for previous consensus, two points:

• Who was this previous consensus, six months ago? Chris O, perhaps, but Xandar has canvassed him (and I would find his voice valuble) and been ignored. Two years ago, there was a Ukrainian nationalist who quoted this sentence - and was roundly defeated as every attempt to install Kyiv has been defeated; but I think he left, like all SPAs eventually leave, before this March. Who else?

• I have already quoted WP:CON on not arguing solely on the basis of past consensus; there is no consensus now. What benefit is there to keeping what we no longer agree on, and will disappoint those who try it? And, more importantly, what benefit is there on these metaphysical wisps on self-identification? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Scientific names

What does this mean: "If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;" --PBS (talk) 13:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

That sentence is very close to being pure nonsense. I think an 'official' name is a name used by authorities like governments and associations. It's saying that the common name should be used (uh, redundant), except for either when the dispute is between two scientific names, or one of them is. Put better, it seems to say that in cases of conflict between two scientific names, the "official" and not the most common one is used. Which seems to me still to be nonsense.    M   20:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

It does two things. It recommends the use of common names, when they differ from official names; Frankfurt, not Frankfurt am Main; Germany, not the Federal Republic of Germany. That's what we do.

The exception is presumably intended to allow for the use of Linnaean names, which may be held to be official. They are popular with some editors, and unpopular with others; more popular (oddly) for flora than fauna. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. This compound edit was not intended to change the 2005 guidance; just answer PBS' reservations. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Dubious revision

I see Xandar has revised the guidelines in the header "to bring them closer to the original guidance"; they were a quotation of the original guidance, so I am not convinced by this claim. But fixing this can be combined with a clarification of the second. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The trouble is that your header points are not a reflection of what policy actually says. They are a new synthesis produced by yourself and others. I have fixed this with a better clarificatiuon of these issues. Xandar 22:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

They were produced by Chris O, in the same edit in 2005 that produced the self-identifying language you prize so much; the only changes are the clarification that would certainly have happened some years ago if anybody had found this fairly standard discussion worth close reading. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

You "fixed" it by asserting that the policy states that this guideline provides exceptions to, as well as specifics and rationale for the relevant policy. Really; what words have you misunderstood? It certainly does not say so expressly, and never has. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:34, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

To quote actual policy, as Slim Virgin was: Where a guideline appears to conflict with a policy, the policy takes precedence.

That is a general policy. However IN THIS INSTANCE, as you know, the policies WPNPOV and WPNAME defer to the Naming Conventions, and in this case specifically to this convention. So placing that sentence you quote in the lead of this convention is deliberately misleading. My wording is the accurate reflection of what WPNAME actually says - rather than what you would want it to say. Xandar 22:53, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Quotation please. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

"the policies WPNPOV and WPNAME defer to the Naming Conventions, and in this case specifically to this convention." Care to review what you said in this comment Kraftlos? --PBS (talk) 23:19, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I still don't think anyone's confused here. The policies do leave the elaboration to this guideline; however I get the strong impression that this is an elaboration, so it should say what those sections of NPOV and NAME state, perhaps in more words and with examples. An explicit exception, beyond the allowance for offensive names found in NPOV, would require an RfC. I'm not against making such a change, but I think our problem here is that this section was intentionally left a bit vague. But no, it wouldn't be inappropriate to make an exception here in this guideline as these policies do defer here for specifics and really act as an extension of policy. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:20, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Having read Xandar's response, it still seems that his changes were entirely inappropriate. I still entirely endorse them being undone.    M   23:28, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

And having read your responses, it still seems that all of your changes to the established naming-convention have been entirely inappropriate. I still entirely endorse them being undone. Xandar 00:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Kraftlos one can not have an RfC over the name of an article that does not exist (as there is no talk page on which to hold it. If the page exists then it is more appropriate to hold an WP:RM if there is a request to change a page name. Further while guidelines and elaborate on policy they can not contradict policy because when there is a conflict the wording of policies have precedence. (WP:Policies and guidelines) --PBS (talk) 02:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The point is, of course, that in this case, there is no contradiction, since the policy defers specific exceptions to the standard practice to this and other guidelines. Xandar 22:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Where this has been used

I searched on the key sentence as , and found that this has only been used in a half-a=dozen instances; one of them is Chriso, denying that Krakatoa can self-identify. The instances include

• Kiev: there has been unbroken consensus to keep it there and not move it to Kyiv.
• Bollywood, as not self-identification. I'm not sure the claim is correct; but the article has not been moved.
• Burma, where the article was moved against the claim of self-identification.
• Falkland Islands to argue that we must include Malvinas in bold; we include it but not in bold. This is contrary to Schmucky's recent improvement and the Cabinda business it summarized.
• Macedonia, where both sides agreed to it; and continued the same discussion
• Catholic Church.

That's not a widely used, successful, or consensus provision. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC) Even counting Macedonia as a success - and it certainly

Examples of Article titles which use a self-identifying name over a common name

• Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints vs Mormon Church
  • Not a good example; if we called an article Mormon Church, we would simplify it to the more common Mormons and merge; but that alternative requires more detail. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
• Religious Society of Friends vs Quaker
  • The article text calls them Quakers at least as often as Friends. It also mentions that the self-identification of Religious is disputed within the Society. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
• Unification Church vs Moonies
• Guangzhou vs Canton
• Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria vs Coptic Church
• Côte d'Ivoire vs Ivory Coast
  • The most recent move discussion was an exact tie; several people took the position which the present text adopts, that official and self-identifying names should sway the balance; several others had evidence that Côte d'Ivoire is most common. If there had been a clear choice between self-identification and predominant usage, it would have moved. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
• Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church vs Ethiopian Coptic Church or Ethiopian Orthodox Church
• Mumbai vs Bombay
  • Mumbai is the most common name; as the coverage of the recent terrorism made clear. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
• Kolkata vs Calcutta
• Royal Navy vs British Navy
  • The article is full of sources which say Royal Navy even in the headlines; the principal source, N. A. M. Rodgers' Safeguard of the Seas uses Royal Navy 58 times. He does use British Navy once, in talking about the Anglo-Saxons. (As well as the search results below.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
• Royal Australian Navy vs Australian Navy
• Royal Malaysian Navy vs Malaysian Navy
• Inuit vs Eskimo
• Ho Chi Minh City v Saigon
• Sterzing v Vipiteno
• Romany vs Gypsy
• Indigenous Australians vs Aborigines (Main article is at Indigenous Australians, minor redirect articles at Aborigines and Australian Aborigines.)
• Dalits vs Untouchables
• Indigenous peoples of the Americas vs Red Indians or American Indians
• Native Americans in the United States vs American Indians
• First Nations vs Canadian Indians

Examples of bilingual communities in European countries, in each case the self-identifying name in the language of the majority is used for Misplaced Pages, notwithstanding English usages. In South Tyrol the principle adopted was to use the 2001 census result to determine whether Italian or German names were used of municipalities. Belgium: Büllingen, Bütgenbach, Kelmis, Amel. We use the German name for each, even though they are situated in a province where French is the official language and in a country where Dutch is the largest language Finland: Jakobstad, Kristinestad, Mariehamn, Nykarleby. The Swedish name is used in each case even though Finnish is by far the largest language Switzerland: Düdingen, Fribourg, Murten, Tafers. In the Swiss cases, the majority language of the municipality is always used. Xandar 00:41, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Mariehamn is not a good example of Finland. It is not in Finland proper, but in Åland, a self governing Swedish speaking territory where Finnish is not used.

The Belgian examples are also poor examples. They may be in a French speaking province, but they are in the officially defined German language area (German being one of the three official languages of Belgium). Skinsmoke (talk) 05:30, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Most of these have not been discussed in these terms; most of them are obscure; and almost all of them are usage. Côte d'Ivoire vs Ivory Coast is, as has been mentioned before, an instance where the self-identifying name would have been turned down, if it had not also proven to be usage.

Let's start with an actually well-known article, where usage and the self-identifying name are both clear, and we follow usage:

• Germany not Federal Republic of Germany.
• Bangalore not Bengaluru; the naming discussion decided not to use the new self-identification until Indian English actually adopted it.
• Weimar Republic not the German Empire.

Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Bangalore/Bengaluru is a particularly good example. The main point of the discussion was that the name change hadn't yet been approved by the Government of India, and that the Misplaced Pages change should wait until it had been. The inference is that once it has been approved, the page title should change regardless of use in English. Of course, India being an English speaking country, the criterion is use in Indian English, not use in global English. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:08, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) to Xandar. You're right about some of these examples, but not all; in fact, not most, I would say. Bear in mind that we use the term most often used by English-speaking reliable sources, not just by anyone. Very few educated sources would now say "gypsy," for example. But you're right about others, e.g. Mormons. SlimVirgin 00:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

See the Gypsy#English law article, Gypsy has two legal meanings in England and is widely used in reliable sources within the UK. --PBS (talk) 01:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

But it's not used instead of Romany, at least I hope it's not. SlimVirgin 02:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Short answerer yes. For example see the first two article returned by the previous search (one,two). --PBS (talk) 11:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Others such as "British Navy" is not used (as often as the alternative) within the country and such names come under National varieties of English, where the alternative is the most common in reliable sources (about 3,220 from ac.uk for "British Navy", and about 33,100 from ac.uk for "Royal Navy") but in this case using Google scholar about 22,900 for British Navy and about 50,100 for Royal Navy so it seems that Royal Navy is the usual in academic sources world wide as well as within the UK. Even a Google raw search returns about 516,000 for "British Navy" and about 3,790,000 for "Royal Navy" so I am not sure why it is in the list. Why is it in your list Xandar? --PBS (talk) 02:12, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Checking up, I do seem to have got it wrong with British Navy, but the same principle applies to Canadian Navy Common Name - 552,000 google hits and Canadian Forces Maritime Command Self-identifying and Misplaced Pages Name 4,590 google hits I haven't attempted to find and list all the articles where self-identifying names are used, or where a policy-change mandating "common names" over self-identifying names would cause problems. The simple fact is that there ARE such articles, they aren't too hard to find - and there are no simple ways of solving the problems that would be created by dumping this useful guidance. Xandar 22:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems that "Canadian Navy" is self-identifying too: . Criteria other than either of the two we've been mentioning have clearly been at work on that one.--Kotniski (talk) 22:20, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

That's because it isn't the Canadian Navy; the Royal Canadian Navy, to which most of those web pages are referring, was merged into a combined force in 1968. It fulfills the functions of a navy and of a coast guard (so this article used as a source speaks of it as the Canadian Coast Guard), but we should not move it to either. WP:PRECISION covers this; we have no need for self-identification here. Two institutions, two articles, two names. (We could call the newer institution the Canadian Navy with some loss of accuracy; but there would be a pointless argument with those who would feel we were demeaning the Queen of Canada.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

WPPrecision would not justify the name Canadian Forces Maritime Command, it is a clear use of the self-identifying name. Xandar 22:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Clearly not; the link I gave above shows that "Canadian Navy" is also used for self-identification. I think what you have in mind is "official name" in some sense - but this is moving away from self-identification, since official names are often imposed from above rather than by the entity itself, and can be imposed just as well on the non-self-identifying entities that you are so keen to keep distinguishing in the guideline.--Kotniski (talk) 09:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion

I think there must be a way of wording the disputed section that would satisfy both sides here. The big problem with the section as it stood was that it really didn't say anything. Would it help to add something like:

"While the term most commonly used by English-language reliable sources is preferred, consideration should be given to respecting the name an individual or group chooses for itself, particularly so in the case of living persons. Articles that are stable on a particular title should not be moved if the move might prove contentious, unless there are compelling reasons and clear consensus to do so."

Would something like that work for everyone? SlimVirgin 01:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

"consideration shouldmay". And I still think that recent sources should be mentioned as it solve several problems (see PMAnderson comment in the last section "Mumbai is the most common name; as the coverage of the recent terrorism made clear.") --PBS (talk) 02:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. What does it mean to give consideration? It could mean 'decide when common is unknown', or it could mean 'factor it in, right alongside common names'. This needs to be clearer.    M   02:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

We can get around the issue of political correctness by using:

Misplaced Pages articles are given the name that the greatest number of English-speaking readers would expect in a reliable source.

So, not just what people call a thing, but what they expect a (neutral) encyclopedia to call a thing. This solves the issue of inappropriate names ('gypsy', etc.) without giving 'self-identifiers' some sort of innate right to the name.    M   02:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Both of these are good ideas; on detail, I join with M in preferring may. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

When using common names, who gets to decide what is inappropriate as a name? "Common" too often in history is what appeals to the lowest common denominator. If there there is a reliable reference that states X is the actual name or the name the entity chooses to call itself, then that is the name. It does not matter that others use a common name.

A case in point is the term Mormon. Mormon is a common name, but it is also slang for Latter-day Saint or Mormon church for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint. The LDS Church publishes what it seeks to be called to clarify for the press and the press generally, if not always, follows it.

In stead of using "may", I think SV had it right with "should". We should respect the name that entities seek to be called. Michael instead of Mike, LDS Church rather than Mormon Church, etc. It is simply far to easy to link the common name to the preferred name of the articles. All readers will find what they want and more importantly, they learn the proper name of the entity of their research. --Rider 21:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Slim Virgin's proposal shows promise. I agree with StormRider on "should", and that Misplaced Pages must continue to respect the names that extant entities wish to determine for themselves. Keeping Misplaced Pages up-to-date (without a 2 year delay on changes) is an important consideration too, as well as the benefit StromRider states of making people familiar with real names like "First Nations". Xandar 21:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how Mormon Church could be confused with Mormon. Also, why do you keep referring to a 'proper name'? If this discussion has any moral, it's that there's no such thing.    M   21:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

• Why should we respect the name that entities seek to be called, instead of calling them what our sources call them?
• This was the plea of both sides in the Macedonian disaster; the Greeks complained bitterly that the millions of inhabitants of Macedonia (Greece) were being denied true respect for their chosen name by Slavic interlopers into the glorious Greek heritage of Macedonia. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
• What makes First Nations more "real" than other words? It's a piece of Canadian (only), coined a quarter-century ago.
• It is not our business to make people do anything, however virtuous; we are here to communicate intelligibly. Presuming we have the right to cram doctrines down our readers' throats is arrogance. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It takes a towering arrogance to ignore all references and call an entity what it specifically says it is not. It is stupidity to ignore all references and continue to call it something because it is the opinion of a few editors that it needs to be called a specific name. Myanmar is a great example. Myanmar has existed for well over 20 years. It is the common name (Google search will show it is over 10 times the usage of Burma). The preferred name is Myanmar. The common name is Myanmar. What does Misplaced Pages entitle the article? Burma. Ignore all policy, ignore all common sense, call it something because...well dammit, we want to call it that. This kind of stupidity is repeated when policy is not clear. Write the policy and make it crystal clear so that editors who would like to implement their opinion at least stand outside of concise, clear policy statements.

(personal attack removed) --Rider 23:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the discussion further up the page about Burma? Whatever the right answer, it certainly isn't clear that Myanmar is either the preferred or the common name (in Britain it's still Burma).--Kotniski (talk) 08:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

There are plenty of references in Burma which call it Burma; Storm Rider does ignore those. I do not ignore those which call it Myanmar; but I do think them outnumbered and less helpful to our readers. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

From your suggestion, please define

• stable and in doing so, consider the priority of a small number of editors in 2004 who reached one consensus have over a larger group of editors reaching different consensus in 2009.
• might prove contentious, and in doing so, consider how the word might in the context of Misplaced Pages editing disputes is usually interpreted, as in "anything might happen".
• compelling reasons, and in doing so, describe an objective standard for compelling.
• clear consensus as opposed to a mere consensus. patsw (talk) 17:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Even most judicial laws have to use words that it is left to common-sense to define. I don't know how far absolute precision is attainable. Xandar 22:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Reality-based guideline

• It is stupidity to ignore all references and continue to call it something because it is the opinion of a few editors that it needs to be called a specific name. From this post

This is either gross exaggeration, which is unhelpful, or a serious claim that all references to Burma call it Myanmar. Which?

One is entitled to invent arguments; one is not entitled to invent facts. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:26, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Marked as guideline

Somehow, someone marked the talk page as a guideline. There was a notification posted on Village pump (policy) about the change. I'm not sure what's going on, but the guilty party shoudl probably clean up after... whatever happened (if they haven't already).
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 02:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

First things first

Why is this even separate from Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions? I'm sure that there's some old conflict that drove the creation of this separate from WP:NC, but is that actually a good idea? Most of this seems like a rehashing (and slightly forked version of) what is already in the "main" guideline.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it would be better to have this on the policy page, rather than editors being referred to two pages that seem slightly inconsistent. SlimVirgin 05:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

There seem to be two things going on. First, this is pointed at the Macedonia affair, and not just in the text under dispute. More importantly, however, these ideas were being worked out in 2005; some of this duplication is because the ideas here were adopted elsewhere. Real duplication should be taken out, and then we'll see what we have. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, all this naming advice is way too confused - it seems to have been written by people whose aim was not to be clear, but to win arguments (or rather to compromise between competing desires to win arguments). I would put all the general guidance on one page (WP:Naming conventions, though I would rename that to "WP:Article naming" or something, because it's not really conventions), and move all the specific stuff (i.e. about articles in particular subject areas - this often really is conventions) off into specialized pages. And have a navigation template so people can find their way around these pages, like the Manual of Style one.--Kotniski (talk) 08:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The policy page is quite terse, and restricted to principles, th goals most people agree on without qualifications. This is largely advice on how to satisfy the principles - a logically separate thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if I agree - the point of nameconv is to resolve disputes on naming. Here we have a guideline on the subject of resolving disputes on naming. Policy shouldn't say anything like "it is policy that Italy is called Italy", or "User:Bob is banned from the Italy article", or "an aircraft should be named ...". Policy is not specific to some subset of our articles - a policy sets out the principles, and guidelines expand on them for certain specific cases.    M   20:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Do we really need Geographic name servers. Check geographic name servers such as the NGIA GNS server at http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp to be policy? It's advice, and not particularly good advice at that; compare WP:NCGN#BGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

That's exactly the sort of thing I'm getting at. The reason that so many of those statements with specific advice seem to keep cropping up is simple coat racking. The separate pages exist, with separate sections for specific areas within them, so people naturally start adding more examples and exceptions. Let's just cut all of that off now, and roll everything back into WP:NC. We'll inevitably end up removing some point or other because it'll be overlooked, but primarily we'll just be getting rid of a ton of redundancy. Nothing is set in stone regardless, so even if it turns out bad or something is missed, we can simply fix that later on.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree on the structural point. In general, we should give advice - not this particular advice - and keep it in guidelines; even with the flaws of GeoNET, if it helps some editors, it's worth the electrons to mention it. But we should not make it policy; policy should not have details which may be changed any time a department in Washington gets a new website. But I think we may have wandered from this page - when it is unprotected, do by all means seek out and remove redundancy and we'll see what's left. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm kind of asking a more general question. Why have 20 different Naming convention guidelines/policies to begin with? This discussion is about this page, but the thought process could easily and correctly be conflated to the others as well, with little change. I see one or two real distinctions between the general gist of all of them, and then a morass of exceptions and specific recommendations that are a real mess when you get right to it. You know better then most others here that I was ready to go in the opposite direction recently, Sep. After I was reversed and we talked about it some though, along with the general idea behind WP:PROJPOL, I've basically come full circle on this. There are a couple of real distinctions that need to be made (Japanese romanization springs immediately to mind), but there's no reason those narrow issues couldn't be discussed in a sub-section on the page. Maybe it's just me as well, but I don't find the distinctions between policy and guidelines to be that well defined. There are parts of all of these naming convention documents that either are or attempt to be policy, and a large part that is "only" guidance. That's not going to change by and splits or mergers that I can see.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 14:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Most of them exist because they're about different subjects. GeoNET doesn't particularly belong here; but it should be discussed in WP:NCGN because it's only useful for geographic names. This page should have generally useful advice - and if it were restricted to that and to advice which is actually useful, it would be significantly shorter than it is. I don't see advice on the same subject in several places as a major problem - but then I am often glad to find any advice at all. As long as we take guidelines as advice - and not as rules, the mark of an editor who hasn't caught on - more advice than necessary is better than less advice than necessary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

eh... I see where you're coming from, but it really depends on the advice being offered. More advice can sometimes lead instead to a rigidity in attitudes, which ends up causing more trouble then it solves. You mentioned taking these as advice instead of rules, which I completely agree with, but I think that half of the problem with these is that there are so many specified exceptions that the whole system is perceived as a set of rules which users must abide by. That very attitude is apparent on this talk page, as a matter of fact.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 16:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Mormons

If Mormon is reliable on this, and they have a source, both The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Mormon are self-identifying names; indeed the LDS so strongly identify themselves with it that they sought to trademark it.

This offers two characteristic problems with the proposal to use self-identifying names; too many subjects have two, and the difference between them matters. The other problem is what if several instutions self-identify with the same name? As here: the trademark office turned down the application because the name, like aspirin, had become generic - it meant any follower of Joseph Smith, including all the other Churches which claim that identity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• So also: what is the self-identifying name of the United Kingdom?
• All Baptists self-identify as Baptists - are all of the several Conferences to be called by that name? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

You are talking from a position of ignorance; never a good proposition. Many of the groups within the Latter Day Saint movement reject the name Mormon and always have. There is not a single group that uses Mormon as its name; they all have a preferred name for their church. Such is the same for Baptists; they each have a name for their church. It is like calling people idiots. Yes, it composes a large group, but they each have a name regardless of how stupid they might be. --Rider 18:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• The full self-identifying name of the United Kingdom is "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The shorter, or Commonly-used version of this name is United Kingdom.
• Baptists may vaguely self-identify as "Baptists". They also more vaguely self-identify as Christians. However this is irrelevant, since we are not talking about the people, but the organisations. What do the organisations self-identify as? See the long List of Baptist sub-denominations. Examples are Southern Baptist Convention, American Baptist Association, and Baptist Union of Great Britain. Incidentally the latter is a purely self-identifying name since it covers only England and some of Wales, rather than all of Great Britain. Xandar 22:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Precisely; there are two self-identifying names, quite different in length, elegance, and precision. (With a little thought, I'm sure Xandar can come up with half-a-dozen more.) Even these two differ in implication: United Kingdom was a self-identifying name before 1922; the others would differ more. A preference for self-identifying names leaves us no way to choose between them; and very often all the plausible candidates are, or can be described as, self-identifying names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of "Discussion Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict"

The discussions in each of the sections above appear to me to have devolved into disputes of names of actual articles. This is a case of the cart before the horse.

Discussions of guidelines which end in success tend to use undisputed examples as a starting point to reach consensus on what changes, if any, need to made to the guideline under discussion. patsw (talk) 16:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Some of what I've read above I would call "gaming" -- tweaking proposals to have the outcome for one or more disputed articles which the proposer advocates as opposed to working out general principles which can be applied neutrally. patsw (talk) 16:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I know that many of our other policy pages have noticeboards to deal with specific article issues. Is there a Naming conflict noticeboard? If not, perhaps one should be created. Then the discussions here would center more on what the policy should be, rather than how to apply it at any given article. Blueboar (talk) 18:00, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:RM tends to serve that purpose, at least for article names.

One reason examples come up is the contention (so far weakly supported) that we do actually use self-identification as a decisive criterion. Since self-identifying names tend to be common in English, the difference is difficult to see without cases where there have actually been naming discussion.

One recurrent discussion, not uncontested, but repeated and clear consensus, is that we use Kiev, not Kyiv; the paragraph under controversy was quoted there (and ignored). An uncontested example is that we use Weimar Republic, not German Empire, although one of the failed compromises of the supporters of the Weimar Constitution was to retain the name of the state. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I was going to mention WP:RM as well. We could set up a noticeboard though... we could start it off as just a redirect to the Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves page, and see if it generates significant traffic.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 01:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

NO! no notice board. That is a function of WP:RM, (at any time there is a list of requested moves currently under discussion) and as discussions take place on the talk page of article under discussion (the place that all changes to a page should be discussed), it is also in the most convenient place for anyone who wishes to review past requested move of the article. -- PBS (talk) 09:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yea, that's basically what I've been thinking as well (and I just said something similar at Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves). Still, an underlying point here seems to be that the recent discussions here and what is actually on the policy page are tending to be overly specific. We should be looking to document established, uncontroversial, and generic ideas on these conventions. There seems to be a desire on at least some people's part to carve out specific exceptions for things, and that's not a good thing.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 12:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Protected version

The page has been protected again, but this time not in its long-standing stable version, but in a form that is a considerable non-consensus change from that, and which is a rather contradictory mish-mash, with some strange non-consensus additions. Protection of this version does NOT imply any consensus to change to the protected version as it stands. Xandar 22:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you be specific? What do you consider contradictory? Which additions are strange? --Kotniski (talk) 09:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Funny how the protected page is always the wrong version. --PBS (talk) 09:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The exact wording on these documents rarely makes much of a difference regardless. Still, if there's anything that everyone agrees on that really needs to be changed, someone can always put up a {{editprotected}} with a request.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 12:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Page protection should be a rollback to a long-standing stable version and not to a arbitrary version including matters under dispute. If it were up to me I would use this March 31, 2009 version as the protected baseline and let each edit since then go through a consensus review so that nothing is added, removed, or changed by stealth. Here is the diff for that March 31, 2009 version and the protected one to get an idea of the mischief that can occur with a an arbitrary pick for a protected version. And so I urge the admins to revert to March 31, 2009 and consider edits since then not be have been reached by consensus. patsw (talk) 12:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Rather than waste everybody's efforts in that way, perhaps someone can just say what changes they actually object to, and why, so we can avoid rolling back improvements? (It's not like any version was ever stable because it was widely accepted; it was stable because no-one was paying any attention to it.)--Kotniski (talk) 12:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

In fact this version from 26 April would be the most recent stable version, if we were adopting that approach.--Kotniski (talk) 12:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

This edit is disputed because the original text was stable and well-understood, the edit substantially and controversially changed the role of self-identification in the guideline, and was made without consensus, and therefore the last version of the page that I would consider to reflect consensus is April 17, 2009. patsw (talk) 13:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no consensus; so no version of this page can reflect it - except possibly one which simply states that there is a dispute, or is silent on the matter.

The arguments here demonstrate conclusively that the original version of the page was not well-understood, since there are two or three understandings of it running around.

The Cabinda parable was twice deleted by SlimVirgin because she saw no meaning in it at all; the one unopposed improvement to come out of all this is Schmucky's edit condensing it into the point that the argument "but somebody else doesn't like it" is not helpful to naming discussions. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I wasn't saying that I was satisfied with the edit of this page at any point as not in needing of improvement, I am agreeing with the editor who pointed out that the protected version of this page was not a consensus version of the page. I don't think the April 26 edit I pointed out was to make a less-understood part of the guideline better-understood, but to substantially and controversially change it without consensus. Could you point out to me where there is a summary of the multiple understandings that you mention? Also, is this a mere misunderstanding of the guideline as written (from March 2009) or an attempt to change the guideline? What is it? patsw (talk) 14:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

See the analysis below, for most of these questions. The chief dispute about understanding is Xandar's insistence that should always be borne in mind = "must prevail", for which see most of his posts above. This is largely an observation that the few sentences removed are vague, are unparallelled elsewhere in our naming guidance (or, for some of the Cabinda passage, repeat what is already said here), are debatable (and not consensus), and are being used to support this minority view on a single, current, content dispute.

But the changes since April 17 offer a handy agenda: I omit tags and one paragraph break. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Relations with policy

If this guideline appears to conflict with NPOV or our naming policy, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions, policy takes precedence and this page should be changed to reflect that.

Added by SlimVirgin, reverted to by Hesperian. An application of our policy on what guidelines are; the key phrases are direct quotations.

• Is this a guideline on naming conflict, or a meta-guideline on how to write the naming conflict guideline? And isn't it redundant to the principle that policies like WP:NPOV and WP:NAME have precedence over all guidelines? Was there a case where this was in doubt and therefore needed restatement here? patsw (talk) 16:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
  • See the edit history and discussion above. Xandar has consistently claimed that this page ranks with, or above, policy, and that this justifies his revert war. He then reverted against this statement. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

My position is that this page is a breakout of WP:NAME, because NAME incorporates this via summary style. It is surely lesser than NAME, but should be read as part of it. I don't disagree with what SV added, but is not quite right if this is considered as already part of existing policies. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Do you mean this sentence or this guideline? The sentence is substantially included in policy; this guideline is not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

NAME does nor summerise, it is policy and this is a guideline. In exactly the same way that WP:V is policy and WP:RS is a guideline, and for exactly the same reason as this dispute this line was specifically added to that policy to make it explicit that V had precedence over RS. -- PBS (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

NAME defers to THIS Naming Convention and others by stating that the specifics and rationale are found here. The claimed "conflict" between the guidelines of PMAnderson and others is therefore entirely bogus. The sentence that has been wrongfully added here is just so outrageous as to be beyond mockery. "Policy takes precedence, and this page should be changed to reflect that." WHO should change the page? When? Why? With what consensus? I've never seen anything like this statement in any guideline. It seems to be some form of self-justification by those trying to fundamentally alter the naming convention without consensus. What nonsense! Xandar 22:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Use common names

This page asserts three principles:

• The most common English-language use of a name takes precedence, if there is one;
• If the common name is not the official name, use the common name. This is not intended to prevent the use of scientific names of taxa, nor the use of the official name for disambiguation. When there is no common English name, use the official name.
• If there is neither a common nor an official name, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

The italicized portions are a direct quotation from the original version of the page, the same single-person edit that produced the language on self-identifying names. The second point has been reworded for clarity, but the first sentence has not changed. (That this did not say what to do when there is no common English name is one of the flaws which show that this page has only now had serious attention paid to it.)

Kraftlos suggested this be restored; Xandar would like to change the third point completely, and claims this is original intent.

• Chris O reworded this to a much more complex text in February 2008, but that still says that we should use self-identifying names when there is no common name; the new version may still be seen under the header Proper Names.

• I would say there's a consensus on common but not official. Does it refer to authority that is granted by law, or by membership, or by recognition given to a group by reliable sources over a domain, or something else? patsw (talk) 16:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

• This might be a better way of expressing the third bullet: "When several names are used enough to be considered "common" or "official", use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves."

Rationale. The problem with are trying to solve here is a dispute among names for which it is disputed that there is a single "most common" or "official" name. When the choice among several names presents itself, the tie breaker is the name that subject self-identifies as. patsw (talk) 16:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to the use of self-identification as a tie-breaker; but the conflict here has been over the alleged principle (as the #straw poll puts it) Preferred names overrule the most common name. The "stable consensus" is being reverted for on the grounds that it says this - which it doesn't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Where was preferred defined? patsw (talk) 17:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

See the last pages of the archive - and the arguments in the poll; it's another term for the "name an organization or person uses to identify itself". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:23, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Third party opposition

* Does a third party, a conflicting claim, or minority view oppose the use of this name?

Schmucky added this to the list of subjective criteria which should not be used in naming disputes. With this, he is content to see the Cabinda parable gone. Noone has opposed this addition, as far as I can see.

• Is there an actual example where there was an undisputed case of the application of this or a demonstration of its necessity -- i.e. an editor argued that a third party conflicting claim should be taken into account, and the immediate consensus was that this third party conflicting claim should not be taken into account in resolving a naming conflict? What motivated this addition to the guidelines? patsw (talk) 17:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, of course - this aims at the practice of certain editors of insisting on FYROM for the Republic of Macedonia, because it's the position of Greek nationalists and the Greek Government that Macedonia is unacceptable for the Republic; see WP:ARBMAC. WP:ARBMAC2, and the discussions there cited. Schmucky is deeply involved in the Beijing-Taipei feud, and wants to use this to defend one of the Chinese governments against the other (I forget which; I avoid that mess). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

This was supposed to be obvious, but I'd be hard pressed from four years ago (today marks my four year anniversary of involvement on this guideline according to the edit history) to remember where this discussion took place. It's a basic statement of NPOV:FRINGE that the removed example of Cabindan's was supposed to demonstrate. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I understand. I'm reading about about the International Red Cross, and cases come up where there is no position you can take which is going to be seen by everyone as neutral, but the option doesn't exist to do nothing, so you have principles which guide you, so at least if you are being criticized for taking a side (when you think you are neutral in a dispute), you can't be criticized for being arbitrary about it as well. patsw (talk) 18:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Anglicization

The choice between anglicized and native spellings should follow English usage (e.g., Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard and Göttingen, but Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence)."

A direct quote from WP:NAME, proposed by Kraftlos, to replace

Note that anglicised versions of names are not simply native names with diacritics removed; "Zurich" is still a German name, as it is merely a spelling of Zürich without an umlaut. A name with a substantial difference in spelling (such as Moscow for Moskva, Munich for München) represents a true anglicisation of a native name.

This is dubious as a claim of fact; Zurich is an anglicization, if a moderate one, just as Gottingen is (note spelling). As guidance, it does not reflect consensus; there is no consensus on which Zurich is more common, and the new sentence (which is both policy and consensus) says we should use whichever is usage. Pages which reflect one point of view on disputed matters have a perfectly good function at Misplaced Pages; but they're {{essay}}s, not {{guideline}}s.

I disagree that reflecting one choice is better is never a guideline. On Chinese language issues, there is an extensive guideline, because it is about basic romanization, not anglicization. 北京 doesn't say anything in English, and could be romanized into a dozen readable 'English' spellings. Standardizing on one romanization method (generally pinyin) as an enforceable guide has been extremely useful. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

There is a gradually worked out consensus on how to transliterate Beijing; but this is like giving the adherents of the RoC and the PRC paragraphs in different guidelines to each declare their own views. But all I claimed was that there is no consensus on the specific question of Zurich. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Self-identifying names

These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names.

This is multiply interpreted. Xandar would read it as commanding that we always use self-identifying names; it certainly doesn't say that.

This is also part of ChrisO's original edit; it had never been discussed on this talk before the recent events, and it has rarely been quoted in actual naming disputes. (And hardly ever successfully: it was twice quoted in an effort to move Kiev to Kyiv, once in an effort to move Bollywood to something else, and several times against the move from Myanmar to Burma.)

I see no evidence that the metaphysical statement These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity is the consensus of the wider community; it is warmly disputed above.

I don't think the wording above works as a guideline, but conceptually we ought to be able to arrive at a consensus as to what weight is to be given the self-identifying name when it is in conflict with other names using undisputed examples. Giving examples of disputes only shows that reaching consensus wording will not be trivial. patsw (talk) 17:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I see three classes

1. Self-identifying names that are common usage. (Gordon Brown) This class is very numerous, and doesn't help us to decide.
2. Self-identifying names which are not common usage, because they're complex (Federal Republic of Germany).
3. Self-identifying names which are not common usage, because they're controversial (Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, also 2.)

Usually

Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.

Usually removed. For what it is worth, WP:UE does not weasel-word, and says transliterations are mandatory.

Cabinda

Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term.

Misplaced Pages should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Misplaced Pages can, or should, decide.

In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.

In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.

This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article where the Maputan-Cabindan controversy is relevant, then the use of the term should be explained and clarified, with both sides' case being summarised.

This is a description, under other names, of the Macedonian naming conflict; its reflection on Misplaced Pages is now resolved under WP:MOSMAC2, which considered and rejected the advice in the last paragraph. It is less than clear to editors who haven't seen the Macedonia disaster, and insofar as it contains explicit general advice, the advice is repeated elsewhere in the guidelines, including Schmucky's addition.

• Misplaced Pages naming conventions