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July 29

Who pays for giveaways at ball games?

Giveaways at baseball games, if I understand the article right, are a great example of Below the line marketing. I have a question about how his is done in general; obviously, every way is different, but as a general rule, who pays for the middleman products.

By "middleman products" - and I suppose there's a better name - I mean a product that might not relate to the advertiser directly. For instance, say Geico decides to give away stuffed toy lizards. (And it would surprise me if they havne't done this. :-) yes, it relates in terms of the ad image, but they dont' sell stuffed animals, so it's not a direct relation. Would they buy the stuffed animals, they put little shirts with their logo on it? Would they pay the stuffed toy maker to do this and split the clost - after all, the toy manufacturer gets a bit of BTW promotion out of this, too. Most giveaways at ball games are, say, key chains that you can buy with no words on yet, I imagine. But, even there, does purchasing the products go into the marketing budget for the one giving them away?

Thanks.Somebody or his brother (talk) 00:36, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I imagine the company being advertised via the giva-away is responsible for all costs. In your Geico example, they would source the give-away and arrange for the freebie to be printed with their company message... the toy company would not part fund the escapade ... the baseball owners would, of course, change Geico for the privilege, and may in addition offer logistical support, having been there & done that. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that the ball club would charge Geico anything, because the whole point of allowing the giveaway is to bring people into the ballpark, so it's totally to the club's benefit. That's something Bill Veeck discovered 50-60 years ago, and which other clubs slowly caught on to: Get someone else to give away something, they get free advertising, more people come to the park - everybody wins! Baseball Bugs carrots 01:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You may be right. IN the case of something like this - ING sponsoring the giveaway of 10000 baseballs, I suspect the club may well have organised the whole thing and then sought a sponsor ... whether all the costs are covered by the sponsor or not must remain a moot point. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I notice from the writeup that the baseballs were to be given away after the game ended. Good idea. Except I wonder how they decide who gets them? First 10,000 to leave? Could cause a stampede. Baseball Bugs carrots 10:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that there are sometimes give-aways even at parks that are permanently sold-out, like Fenway. There's no point attracting more people to Fenway Park without putting in more chairs. APL (talk) 04:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure there are. It's even possible the clubs do charge something for it, being the money-grubbers they are. But they have to be careful. Speaking of which, giving away baseballs, or anything else that can be thrown, has long been considered a very risky kind of promotion. That's why they are more apt to give away Beanie Babies than hard objects. There was a baseball giveaway in Milwaukee a few years back that resulted in several thousand of them being thrown on the field when an ump made a controversial call. Bad idea. Baseball Bugs carrots 07:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes. I sorta remembered one remarkable incident in the past involving thrown records (those vinyl things we had before CDs). Misplaced Pages, of course, has a List of violent spectator incidents in sports, and there it was: Disco Demolition Night, July 12, 1979. In this promotion, fans could get into a White Sox double-header for $0.98 if they brought a disco record to be destroyed in a tween-games ceremony. The stadium sold out.

Unfortunately, the fans soon discovered that the records made good, if sharp, Frisbee equivalents. The destruction of the batting cage and the (literal) stealing of the bases soon gfollowed. The promotion was not repeated. Neither was the Ten Cent Beer Night at Cleveland five years earlier. Baseball is less fun these days. PhGustaf (talk) 20:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, man, you had to bring that up - one of the worst promotions ever (on the same order as "Ten Cent Beer Night" in Cleveland, on June 4, 1974); the absolute low point of Bill Veeck's career; and nearly the death-knell for the career path of his son, Mike Veeck, who was the brains, so to speak, behind this promotion. I recall watching it at a safe distance, on TV, and wondering, along with most everyone else, "What were they thinking?" In the middle of this past month, there were occasional little retrospectives on the 30-year anniversary of this disaster. Arrrgh! Baseball Bugs carrots 05:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

This is a whole new tangent, and I hadn't realized there was effectively a "Curse of Rusty Torres", who was on the roster for both the 1974 and 1979 games, and also the last Washington Senator home game in 1971, also a forfeit. I wonder if he was in the stands for that 1995 game in L.A.? I'm also pretty sure there was a similar incident with the baseballs in Milwaukee, but the fans were told to stop or the game would be forfeited, and they stopped. Baseball Bugs carrots 05:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

In your example, Geico likely wouldn't do anything more than buy the stuffed geckos. There are companies that cater to this sort of thing. They have a wide selection of different little promotional items, e.g. key chains, stuffed animals, pens, notepads, etc. Each item has some place on it to print a logo. Again, in your example, the front of the gecko's shirt. So, they order 5000 of them and have them sent to the ball park. For a company as large as Geico, they can probably go to the promotions company and say, "You guys just have bears and raccoons but we want a gecko. Can you get geckos?" At which point the promotions company rings up their manufacturer in China, Hong Kong, or wherever and asks them to have 5000 geckos made including form fitting t-shirts. Geico may have someone at the park to give people rate quotes but the geckos are generally passed out by park employees. Dismas| 09:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Neat; I hadn't thought about there being actual promotions companies that make all those little products, but it makes a lot of sense. Thanks, all.Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

To get back to one of the issues raised earlier in the thread, in the case of a limited-supply but highly-desirable item being given away, the ball club will often give every spectator entering the park a little card. When opened, a certain number of these cards are vouchers for the coveted give-away item, and the others will offer something of lesser value (for example, discount on future tickets, or on concession items). The holders of the lucky tickets can then turn them in to receive their items. In the case of items likely to be thrown, such as a ball, the kiosks handing over the prizes can remain closed until the end of the game, and be located near the exits so that the items are not taken back into the stadium. Finally, the case of the balls being thrown en masse on the field was on August 10, 1995, in Los Angeles. The Dodgers had to forfeit the game as a result of being unable to stop the actions of their fans. See here. --Xuxl (talk) 15:36, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Aha, that would make sense. Of course. This is why I'm not in the marketing field. :) It was in L.A.? I recall they used to throw seat cushions onto the field, but that was usually after the games were over. Now, don't tell me - they threw the balls in the field in the sixth inning, because everybody leaves by the seventh, right? :) Baseball Bugs carrots 05:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The game I was thinking of at Milwaukee was opening day, April 7, 1997. There's a reference to it in this blog, under "author": They did not forfeit, so it didn't much matter, but I think that spelled the end of pre-game baseball giveaways. You'd think they'd have learned after the 1995 incident, but no. Baseball Bugs carrots 06:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

There's a story I heard which must be either apocryphal, speculative or said in jest that claimed all-too-predictable consequences ensued when Little League-sized bats were distributed to the first X thousand kids to enter a game, perhaps a minor-league one. ¶ And there was a notorious weekend evening playoff game at Fenway Park in 1999 or 2000 where Boston Red Sox fans upset with calls rained an enormous amount of soft-drink bottles and other hard or semi-hard débris onto both officials and the visiting team, prompting delays and swift police action but not a forfeit. The team and the city issued a very quick and full apology the next day, unlike a rowdy hockey game at about the same time in another city where the mayor all-but-condoned his citizens' misbehavior. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

"I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out." Yep. I still have a little league sized bat from a "bat day" giveaway many years ago. People were a little less rowdy then (maybe). In more recent years, bat giveaways have tended to be about the size of drumsticks. But the common sense rule still is, "Don't give away something they can throw and hurt somebody." Hence Beanie Babies, which probably wouldn't hurt even if fired from a cannon; and things like bobbleheads, which would probably be hard to get a good throwing grip on or wouldn't go very far, unlike a baseball. The practice at Wrigley Field, since adopted elsewhere, of throwing a visiting team home run ball back, is dangerous enough - but at least the fielders know it's coming. Baseball Bugs carrots 07:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Some things are hard to avoid. Consider the (in)famous "Hail Mary (famous play)" play from December of 1975, when official Armen Terzian has conked in the head with a (presumably empty) bottle of booze. At least the ballparks don't have a "Thunderbird Day" or something. Baseball Bugs carrots 07:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Secular Humanism and World Government

If secular humanists don't want to establish world government, then how can you explain this statement in World Community, Twelfth, Humanist Manifesto II: "Thus we look to the development of a system of world law and a world order based upon transnational federal government.".

You should look carefully to see what secular humanists support.

There is also this article called Humanism that you should look at.

Bowei Huang (talk) 05:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I can explain it: Some people who self-identify as secular humanists want, apparently, to abolish nations and have a world government. That doesn't mean that secular humanists in general want to establish world government. I've seen that organization's logo around, but it doesn't mean they somehow represent all secular humanists.

In a similar vein, some Muslims want a world government running sharia law, and some Christians want to convert everyone in the world to their religion; but it doesn't mean you can tar all these people with the same brush. I'd add — though this is OR and I have no source to cite — that if you polled all the secular humanists on this political question, the answers would probably be more diverse than the results you'd get if you polled the Muslims and the Christians on their respective questions I just cited. Tempshill (talk) 06:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Let me add something, as I just skimmed the creation wiki article that Bowie Huang linked to. The lie that's underlying the allegations in that article is the idea that the secular humanists are part of one big movement, like the Catholic Church, in which a large number of people have an (ostensibly) unified set of beliefs, and they follow marching orders given by their leaders. (Which allows them to exert undue influence over the United Nations, etc.) In my experience, it's the opposite. These people are not organized, despite the desires, apparently, of the American Humanist Association, the group that wrote those manifestos — their 2008 annual report notes their membership hit an all-time high of 10,000 last year. This is not a lot of people. So, if all 10,000 members were to endorse that document you cited, you could say there are at least 10,000 secular humanists who want a world government. But I don't think that world government is even in the top 10 priorities of most people who self-identify as "secular humanist". Tempshill (talk) 07:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

We should oppose any attempt at a world government, because the current approach works so very well. Now, is there a real question in there someplace, or did someone mistake this page for Editorials R Us? Baseball Bugs carrots 07:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

The OP does this kind of thing on a pretty regular basis. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 15:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Apart from the trillions and trillions of people who have been killed by war and trade blockades that cause famine and other rivalries since the dawn of mankind of course.--92.251.255.17 (talk) 13:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure who you're talking to, but you should be aware that the number of humans who have ever lived is considerably less than a trillion. Algebraist 13:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Bowei Huang, your comment that one (who?) “should look carefully to see what secular humanists support” seems to represent a non-neutral point of view. Perhaps you should reexamine your motive for posting potentially offensive statements here. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Causes on Facebook

Have any causes on Facebook ever been known to actually accomplish anything besides some fund raising? I'm thinking of things external to FB, i.e. not the "Tell FB that you don't like..." causes. Most of the time, I don't see the point in joining them except for maybe a warm fuzzy in your heart over clicking a few links to say you support left-handed firefighters or whatever else the cause supports. Dismas| 09:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Bra Wars. --Richardrj 09:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to say exactly what causes someone to change their mind, but there are a number of campaigns that have organised using Facebook and achieved results. Fighting changes in Canadian copyright law. Bringing the Wispa chocolate bar into production was partly due to a Facebook campaign. Even less importantly on a global scale, but presumably due to an active Facebook-using student body, changing the branding at Vermont College. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 11:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I've read at least one claim that the Wispa/Facebook thing was deliberate viral marketing. I can't remember the source though. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's a wispa/viral claim, the first of many given by this google search. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I feel I'm being got at. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

In Ontario, the government dropped proposed new restrictions on driving by teenagers after more than 150,000 people joined a Facebook group opposed to the changes. The media played up the Facebook angle, but it's impossible to know how much influence that had on the decision to withdraw the proposal. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 17:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Looking for reference: Two friends lost, dying in national park; one killed the other out of mercy, later rescued, charged with murder

I saw a true story on TV years ago but cannot find a reference to it. The story goes something like this:

Two college friends took a road trip after graduation. They stayed in a national park(?) overnight but were unprepared for the desert(?) heat. The next day, they were dehydrated and disoriented, and couldn't find their way back to their vehicle. One of them was in agony and seemed to be dying. The other friend thought they were both going to die and killed the first one, to spare his friend of the pain. The second friend was later rescued and charged with murder. It turned out that the two victims were only several hundred feet from their vehicle the whole time.

Do you have a reference to this story? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.98.141 (talk) 11:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

We do: Raffi Kodikian. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow! That was quick. Thanks. --98.114.98.141 (talk) 12:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Please explain in simple English

Radio-frequency identification and Stock-keeping unit? Thank you, 117.0.15.161 (talk) 17:32, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You mean Radio-frequency identification and Stock-keeping unit perchance? 62.78.198.48 (talk) 17:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure that's what the question was about, but in the case of Stock-keeping unit, the article is not a particularly easy read. I'll take a shot - A stock-keeping unit, or SKU, is an identifier primarily used for inventory management. As an example, a grocery store may have different SKUs assigned to milk, eggs, bread, and oranges. These could be as simple as 0001, 0002, 0003, and 0004. They could then track how many of item 0001 they have on hand, how many of 0002 were sold each day, and how many 0004 they should order from their supplier at the end of the week. The SKU can be more complex - if the store sells bread from two different bakeries, then perhaps the identifier could be 0003A or 0003B. --LarryMac | Talk 17:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You might like to know about the Simple English Misplaced Pages . There is an article about RFID there . Unfortunately, there is no stock-keeping unit article there. Summarizing the regular English Misplaced Pages article on stock-keeping unit, an SKU is a unique identifier which a business uses to keep track of the items they buy, sell, and store. Each item the business thinks of as a "unit" gets its own SKU. For example, a single item may have one SKU, but a pack of ten items may have a different SKU. Likewise, if a product comes in different colors, each color would have its own SKU. Each business has their own way of giving items an SKU; there is no universal SKU system. -- 128.104.112.87 (talk) 17:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

A given SKU, say 123456 might refer to one model model, size, and color of a product from one manufacturer. When the store no longer carries that item, the same sku might be reassigned to a different item. The bar code on the product has to be linked in the stores computer to the bar code on the item, so that when scanned at the checkout, the purchased product rings up as the right item. Edison (talk) 20:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

free digital photography online magazines

does anyone know of any free digital photography online magazines (to download in pdf) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.100.69 (talk) 19:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Enjoy! This site looks good, actually, must try it myself. Fribbler (talk) 19:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Hydrangea

Hi,

I'm thinking of purchasing some Hydrangea Macrophylia shrubs in all the appropriate colours for my front garden.

I need these shrubs/flowers to be about 4 to 5 foot high when purchased - is that possible?

If not can you point me in the right direction to purchase different coloured plants/flowers/shrubs that colour at 4 to 5 foot on purchase?

Regards

Nick —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nkoufou (talk • contribs) 19:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Where do you live? It will help answer the question. Fribbler (talk) 19:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Bear in mind that if you have the wrong soil, you will have to add some sort of iron to ensure you get a blue hydrangea. This forum thread may explain further: --TammyMoet (talk) 08:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Gas prices

Is gas price in California jumping again?! In orange county I saw a 3.02 in June 2009, then they went down twenty cents to 2.81, then I saw a 5 cent-jump on few stations. is gas price going to go back to 3.50 anytime soon, or not till few years. Will we have 4 or 5/gallon again? Let's hope not!--69.228.145.50 (talk) 21:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, if only we could predict the prices of commodities! We'd all be much richer. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 21:32, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

At least we don't yet have hyperinflation, where the price of a loaf of bread may double while you wait in the checkout line to buy it. I have seen prices on a gas station change a nickle or so at a time 2-3 times in a day, so such fluctuations are not unusual. --Jayron32 23:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's the commodity that's changing price that rapidly, I think it's the cost at the pump. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

You should see what it's like in Britain. I used to think fuel prices in America were a lot cheaper, but they go up and down all the time too. Chevymontecarlo (talk) 10:40, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Between July 21 and July 28, the price of regular gas in Los Angeles rose 3.2%, and No. 2 low-sulfur diesel by 3.1%. See . DOR (HK) (talk) 03:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

July 30

Spread betting on 2008 US election

After Las Vegas's bookmakers declared Barack Obama elected and paid out the bets on him, did spread betting still take place? If so, what was the spread on election day? NeonMerlin 00:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Probably there were: people will bet on anything. But the increasing odds in favor of Obama had become a running joke well before the election. At least one Irish bookmaker paid off its bets on Obama two or three weeks before the election, possibly in the hope that the bettors would reinvest in the upcoming World Series. PhGustaf (talk) 02:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

An adequate forum on Wikipeida?

I have a few issues I would like to discuss concerning the validity of certain articles and policies on Misplaced Pages. Does anyone have any suggestions for any internal forums or notice-boards that I could post my queries to? Any help would be certainly appreciated. Torkmann (talk) 02:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Your question is pretty vague. The best places to start, though, would be on the talk pages for the articles and policies you question. Be polite, and bring good sources. Try to find resolution there before entangling yourself in the alphabet soup of mechanisms for filing formal complaints. PhGustaf (talk) 02:40, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

General discussion about policies takes place at Village pump (policies). Gwinva (talk) 02:45, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok thanks I'll go check out the pump page. 02:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Torkmann (talk • contribs)

A quick glance at your history shows you started a bunch of unanimously opposed AfDs. I don't mean to be rude, but perhaps proposing things for deletion just isn't your thing? Why not do something else? APL (talk) 04:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, seriously. Take it from experience, worrying about whether things should be deleted will only make you irritated and an unpleasant person to deal with. Try creating new content and improving existing articles and you'll have a much better Misplaced Pages experience on the whole (though you'll probably get irritated anyway—such in the nature of anonymous collaboration). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:08, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

prices of medicine

how can a medicine cost US$124 in the US or Canada but only $8 in Australia. I buy 3 medications and they cost me $8, 8 and $11 a packet. In North America thes3 are over $200! In Australia it is impossible to pay more than $1264 a year for medicine (or$318 for senior citizens). After that it is all paid for by the government. Is there a safety net like that in North America or do you pay forever such obscene prices? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Payneham (talk • contribs) 04:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

There are some government programs for certain categories of the very poor. (See Medicaid) Also most Americans have health insurance. However, a lot of insurance does not cover prescriptions, or covers them with a very large deductible. So ... yes, Americans sometimes wind up paying huge amounts for prescriptions, and yes, there is a safety net, but you have to be really poor to take advantage.

To learn about the whole inefficient mess, check out Health insurance in the United States APL (talk) 04:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe there's a certain plan in Cuba to provide some medicine very cheap/free, and not provide the rest, or expensively. I think there was a story of someone trying to leave with a suitcase of the stuff back to the US. Just to provide a tangental point asbout pricing policy. - Jarry1250  07:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

In Australia there is a thing called the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, which is a Federal Government scheme that heavily subsidises the price of medicines. As new ones come out, they are assessed and placed on the scheme. About the highest price under the scheme, for income earners, is $35; pensioners and other welfare recipients pay $5.(The unsubsidised price of the drug is written on the label, as a tiny boast of how good the scheme is). Some medications are not on the scheme, but if they were to cost $300 nobody would buy them. In a country where people are used to paying hundreds, they can charge more. - KoolerStill (talk) 09:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

It's easy to say you wouldn't pay it. But if you need it to live then you'll pay it. A lot of USA people with good insurance think as you do, but when they lose that insurance, or the coverage suddenly changes, they absolutely pay for their meds if they can possibly afford it without starving. APL (talk) 13:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The question was not whether the government will pay the medicine cost for you or not. The question was actually about its price. If Australia is paying for the patient, that would make it more expensive in Australia than in the US or Canada. Probably, what makes the price higher in the US is simply that these medicines are protected by a patent.--Quest09 (talk) 10:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Why would you assume that the government would automatically pay more than a consumer? As a single-payer they have massive bargaining power that individual consumers simply don't have. APL (talk) 13:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Why do you assume the government will use its "massive bargaining" power more efficiently than the consumers? Mostly they won't care for what they are paying.--Quest09 (talk) 18:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, bureaucracy and all that, but we do have responsible government here in Australia. It's not entirely barbaric. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The question was why the asker has to pay $124 in USA and $8 in Australia. The Government subsidy is the answer on all prescription medicines. Over the counter medications (cold remedies, painkillers etc) would not sell if they looked too overpriced compared with what people are used to paying. Newly released specialised drugs (eg new cancer treatments) may cost $20,000 for a year's supply, until they are shown to be good enough to go onto the PBS. Australian drugs are just as protected by patents as US ones, and are often imported or made under licence from the US patent owner. Of course, there are many generics as well, and pharmacies often offer the generic substitute, if there is one. The saving to the buyer may be only $5, to the Government maybe $20 to $50. The Government has huge bargaining power, as a drug that is on the PBS will sell thousands or millions more units than one that costs the user $3000 for a month's supply (or 3 times the disability pension). This power IS used, as the scheme costs around $7 billion a year (for 20 million people). Consumers have close to zero bargaining power in a situation where they have dire need of an item, which is available from only scarce sources. - KoolerStill (talk) 19:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess some in the US would say subsidised drugs are an unfair tax on the healthy :-P Astronaut (talk) 00:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Road taxes are unfair on those who walk or stay at home? state run schools are an unfair tax on the uneducated and those past school age? taxes to build dams are an imposition on those who prefer whiskey? - KoolerStill (talk) 17:17, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what things are like in Australia but the NZ government's Pharmac definitely uses it's bargaining power. This is sometimes controversial because of questions about whether the cheapest drugs are necessarily the best but it's clear Pharmac does use their power. As has been mentioned patents aren't the issue here. These generics are produced after the patent has expired, not via compulsory licensing (reading that article I was reminded how the US government partially used threats of doing the same thing to force the price of Ciprofloxacin down despite their usual strong opposition to such things ) or ignoring the patents as is done in some developing countries. In the case of Australia I believe, there's great controversy about the changes to the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme as a result of the Australia-United States Free Trade Agreement and there's also fear here in NZ that we may be forced into similar changes as a result of a planned NZ-US FTA. These changes are widely accepted I believe to be the result of US pharmaceutical company lobbying. This and the great opposition of the large pharmaceutical companies to NZ's Pharmac and similar things like Australia PBS is IMHO ample evidence that they are using their bargaining power quite effectively, whether the outcome is the best may be a different issue, but it's not the issue that was raised. Nil Einne (talk) 08:27, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Above it's said that "government subsidies" are the reason drugs are so much cheaper in Australia (indeed, most of the world outside the US), but I think there is usually more to it. Often, from what I heard on the news when they were talking about making it legal to bring in cheap drugs from Canada, there are laws in the country that put a limit on how much a drug maker can charge. The government is not paying the drug company and the savings are passed on to the country's citizens, it is simply illegal for the company to charge more, so they don't. This works because the pills have such a low marginal cost. The companies spend billions of dollars developing the drug, yes, but it's relatively cheap to manufacture the finished product. As a result they can sell it at these government set prices and still make a large profit, and their only alternative is (in theory) to not sell in that country, in which case they would make no money. Naturally many Americans feel like they have the crappy end of this stick and have pressed to institute similar caps, but the lobbyists then say that if their biggest market (the US) were to have similar price caps, it would become unprofitable to develop drugs. It is regrettable but unavoidable that the rest of the world is getting a "free ride" off of American customers' high prices. To me this argument loses a little of its shine when you consider that drug companies are so damn profitable. TastyCakes (talk) 15:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

shirt sizes in Canada

I was looking at a shirt from a Canadian website and it was labelled size "G". what is that? S. M. L. or Xl.? are there other strange letters used in Canada? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Payneham (talk • contribs) 04:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Most likely "G" is for "Grande", or "Large". There would most likely be a "P", for "Small", too. But it's more important to note that Canadian shirts are all wool or polyester fleece: it's too cold up there for cotton or rayon or silk. PhGustaf (talk) 04:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Eh? Baseball Bugs carrots 04:53, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Say what? We don't "cotton" to people who imply we (all) live in igloos and dine on pemmican. (Why, I haven't seen a polar bear in weeks.) Clarityfiend (talk) 04:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

And pure cotton is actually warmer than pure polyester (although I'm not sure about blends). NeonMerlin 05:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I bought a cotton shirt here only a few days ago. Maybe I crossed the Canadian-Mexican border without noticing when I went to buy it. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Just in case the OP is confused, G for Grande and P for Petit are French. Acceptable (talk) 11:05, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Though strangely I believe the next sizes up after G are XG and XXG rather than TG or TTG. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm I'm pretty sure I've seen both. TastyCakes (talk) 17:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Bands influenced by D&D

What mainstream bands, if any, are known to have been influenced by Dungeons & Dragons? NeonMerlin 05:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Not a musician, but Vin Diesel has publicly admitted to being a big D&D player as a youth. I'm not positive, but I think I remember hearing that Andrew W.K. may have also been a D&D player as well; not sure how it influenced his music. Weezer's song "In the Garage" from the Blue Album contains blatant references to D&D sessions played in the garage. That track is probably the best chance you got of a blatant D&D reference in a major band's song. --Jayron32 05:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Marillion were named after Tolkien's book of jottings The Silmarillion, and there's a clear link between Tolkien's "sword & sorcery" and the origins of D&D, even though the makers of the game deny they were influenced by Tolkien. Progressive rock in general often gets accused of being in hock to dubious Tolkienesque mythologising, although in my experience it's hard to find an actual progressive rock group to whom you can make the Tolkien accusation stick. --Richardrj 06:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Roger McKenzie aka DJ Wildchild? Renegade Master was remixed by Fatboy Slim and contains the line (unless it's a mondegreen), "d4 damage, power to the people". AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 06:35, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I would think Nerdcore and Nintendocore bands might be influenced by D&D but I can't think of any specific references. Of course, if you extend it to Tolkien, then Led Zeppelin is an obvious choice. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:05, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The Nerdcore article references a NY Times article called Dungeons, Dragons and Dope Beats; however the article barely mentions D&D. mc chris's fourth release was called Dungeon Master of Ceremonies. --LarryMac | Talk 12:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Some lyrics sites have that as "default damager". My own mondegreen was "d-floor damager", a contraction of "dance-floor" and therefore a cool and hip way for the guy to express that he dances about a lot. Rolling a D4 for damage doesn't sound very impressive. 81.131.64.44 (talk) 09:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

And "D for damager, power to the people" gets 1190 Ghits in quotes versus 313 with d4. The fact that it's "damager", rather than "damage", also makes me think a reference is unlikely. NeonMerlin 21:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I always thought the name d12 had to have a second meaning... Tempshill (talk) 21:43, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

There's a little list at http://en.wikipedia.org/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_in_popular_culture#Music which mentions that one Owen Pallett and an MC Chris released D&D themed albums, while Mindflayer appears to be an entirely D&D focused band. 81.131.64.44 (talk) 10:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Rhapsody are not necessarily directly influenced by D&D, but certainly by high fantasy. Steewi (talk) 02:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Michael Menes's Music

Does anyone recognize the music in the following video clip of juggler Michael Menes: ? Thanks. --Think Fast (talk) 06:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Try the Entertainment Desk.71.236.26.74 (talk) 12:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The UN and us

Do Europeans love the UN more than US citizens love it?--Quest09 (talk) 10:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

My, you certainly have a lot of questions! ¶ Yes. -- Hoary (talk) 10:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I am bored, so what? Besides that, not all my contributions to the Ref.Desk are questions. Thanks for your answer anyway, even if it was only one word. Quest09 (talk) 10:53, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about the general population, but I can at least say that conspiracy theories about the UN appear to be an American thing, as does appointing an (interim) ambassador who's openly hostile to its existence. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:12, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Ask India how well they like the UN. Specifically, why do small countries like France carry so much weight? It's no wonder Europeans like the UN. :) Baseball Bugs carrots 12:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

It's because France were one of a small group of nations heavily involved in the creation of United Nations and are one of the permanent members that were granted veto-power 194.221.133.226 (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't think France thinks of herself as a small country. Is there some bias creeping in? Remember France was a world power whilst many modern countries did not exist!90.0.2.7 (talk) 15:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)DT

Worth noting is that the five permanent members of the Security Council were the major victorious powers in World War II — not exactly an unimportant historical factor, as the Council was established in 1946. Currently, France remains the world's third-largest nuclear power (in terms of number of warheads, their stockpile and active nuclear forces are slightly larger than China's); the five permanent Security Council members are also the only signatories of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty who have nuclear weapons. (India, Pakistan, Israel, and North Korea have not signed the NNPT.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

here's a survey. Surprisingly the U.N. is MORE popular in the Americas than in western Europe. Colour me surprised. Fribbler (talk) 14:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

That may partially depend on the fact that the United States is on the U.N. security council.--WaltCip (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The survey is from 1999. That seems a bit outdated considering the various foreign political events that has occurred since then. --Saddhiyama (talk) 18:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Only in the USA have I seen grafitti urging the US to leave the UN. Astronaut (talk) 00:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Gross generalizations such as assuming that Europeans or Americans can be more or less categorized as vaguely "loving" a multilateral bureaucracy are difficult to answer, and may well simply spark unhelpful debate. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:38, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

The fact that the UN building is in the USA is probably a plus, from the American standpoint. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Workload on distance learning degree course

Doing a home study degree course in the UK, with 120 course credits taken every year for 3 years and a notional 36 week year, about how much study time each week would be recommended? There are no lectures or essays, it's all assessed by end of year exams. 86.151.94.245 (talk) 14:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

It really depends on the student. I study through the Open University and they say about 16 hours a week. To get 120 points you'd need to do 2 60pt courses a year (not impossible but means no breaks). I would expect that in the above scenario you'd want a good 5-10 hours+ a week even if you think you are quick learner etc. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

You really need to ask your Course Tutor. He or she probably won't know exactly but should be able to give a guide. Is there a forum on-line ? if so ask other students. In any case, as has been said, a lot depends on style of learning and objective. I learn best in an all-out, drop everything, for 6 weeks before an exam. (Then forget it all in a couple of hours after.) But I don't look for a First. Finally, much depends on the subject (practical or theory), your motivation, and your learning style (check that out it will be helpful to discover your preferred way to study http://www.vark-learn.com/english/page.asp?p=questionnaire). Finally, finally, I am very glad to now be setting and not taking exams!! Urgh!!90.0.2.7 (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)DT

I don't have a tutor, cause I haven't enrolled yet. The course is with the University of London External System, does anyone already study there? Thanks for the test link btw. 86.151.94.245 (talk) 23:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

hereditary deaths

my great grandfather was killed by a clown (off duty, the clown was drinking in a bar and stabbed my geat grandfather to death, this was not quite the wild west but rough and wild times), and my grandfather was a clown (in a circus). Two months ago my father killed a clown (this was a genuine accident, the clown ran into the side of him in his car (it was not a clown car) and crashed through the windscreen), does this mean I will either be killed by a clown become a clown or kill a clown? Score Deal Gun (talk) 17:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Not really - but it does show just how dangerous it is to be a clown.83.100.250.79 (talk) 17:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Heredity is a genetic trait, what you're talking about here is not that at all. ZS 18:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Yabbut it's possible to pass environment on. If Chuckles had a kid who parades as a peanut, the kid is doomed too. PhGustaf (talk) 19:12, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Infertility is also hereditary. If your parents didn't have any kids, you won't have any either.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages cannot give medical advice to the OP's problem of Coulrophobia. The ideal murder is the murder that no one believes. An example is to dress up as a clown and beat your victim to death with a rubber chicken. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Spoiler (especially for coulrophobes): Forget, before I even recall his name to your attention, this sinister amateur clown —— Shakescene (talk) 21:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

You beat me to it. I'm not sure he used a rubber chicken, though. I think it was more like piano wire. So, do you recall this one: Why was his house so cold? Baseball Bugs carrots 00:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I changed this to a footnote because otherwise it created this annoying references section at the end of the page, and I think that's only supposed to be for articles. Don't worry, I've messed those two up, too. (I presume this was allowed and didn't requite a moderator's help; if it did, I'm sorry.)Somebody or his brother (talk) 22:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC

Your solution didn't work. —— Shakescene (talk) 22:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

spoiler footnote

1. Spoiler (don't look if you fear clowns): John Wayne Gacy.

sloe gin liqueur

What causes some sloe gins to have a creamy head and other sloe gins not to have a creamy head? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.173.209 (talk) 18:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

GCSE core and extended exams

British GCSE qualifications in many subjects have "core" and "extended" tracks, with easier questions in the core exam but the highest possible mark being a C (which is the de facto pass grade nowadays). Taking the extended exam means you can score up to an A* star. But does anyone know if extended candidates have to sit the core exams as well? Can't find that explained anywhere, but I'd rather not phone my brother's school and plead total ignorance! 86.151.94.245 (talk) 18:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

No, they don't have to. The 'extended' exam includes material/questions as tough as the 'core' and 'tougher'. ny156uk (talk) 20:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Note that just as core exams only go up to C, extended exams don't go all the way to the lowest grades e.g. AQA Higher Tier Maths only goes to D. If a candidate does less well, my understanding is that they can fail despite being at a pass (e.g. E grade) level. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 20:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

My experience (GCSEs in 2004) was that there were three tiers - Lower Foundation, Intermediate and Higher. I don't remember the max. grades but I trust your 'Intermediate - C, Higher - A*'. I took all Highers and only took the Higher papers. The higher papers had the same total marks available, but with higher difficulty questions. --Joe_Work 23:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Average GRE and university

Is there a ranking which considers the GRE of its undergraduate as a quality measure of the university?--Quest09 (talk) 18:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

It probably doesn't mean much, the GRE's aren't anything close to universal even for students applying to grad schools; I took them but made a last minute career change and it turned out that the masters program I was applying to didn't even ask for them. Also, med students and law students take unrelated exams as well (MCATS and LSATS, IIRC). Unlike the SAT/ACT which are nearly universal for college acceptance, the GRE isn't nearly as important for grad school acceptance, despite the marketing push by the College Board to make it so... --Jayron32 03:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The GRE is not that important for anything anymore, and getting less so. Torkmann (talk) 03:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Optical vs. electronic viewfinders

Digital cameras these days have both optical and electronic viewfinders. With an optical viewfinder, you see the subject as it is - not as it will be photographed. The only things that an optical viewfinder will tell you about the finished photograph are the cropping and the focus plane. You will only get to see things like the aperture value and the shutter length (which affect the lighting, the sharpness, and the focal depth of the picture), the exposure compensation, and the white balance setting, after you take the photograph. With an electronic viewfinder, you see at least the exposure compensation and the white balance setting straight away. Still, people tend to prefer optical viewfinders. Is the only reason for this that they're instantaneous, and require zero power, or is there something I'm missing here? JIP | Talk 20:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Camera optical viewfinders often show various indicators for exposure, flash, and low battery, but rangefinding viewfinders are fairly rare. Unless the camera is fully automatic you can set and see the aperture and shutter settings before you take a photograph. The user of a reflex camera user with interchangeable lenses has reason to prefer the optical viewfinder. An electronic LCD viewscreen is handy for positioning the camera anywhere away from the face or when using spectacles; it can also show correctly the effect of an electronic (in addition to optical) zoom, and have other uses such as showing menus, instructions, and previously taken photographs in memory. Unlike the optical viewfinder on non-reflex cameras it has no parallax framing error on close-up pictures. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

For the first comment, there's no reason why electronic viewfinders couldn't show them too. For the second comment, of course you can set the aperture and shutter settings beforehand - it's their whole point - but I can't imagine how you'd actually see their effects until after you've taken the photograph. The third comment is actually in favour of electronic viewfinders, and the fourth comment applies equally well to optical and electronic viewfinders. So I have yet to see any advantage to optical viewfinders, other than being instantaneous and requiring zero power. JIP | Talk 21:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

With a digital camera with a digital view finder you can see the effects of the aperture etc if the camera refreshes the screen by constant taking photographs - in other words the camera would be constantly taking a photo, but only when you press the button does it save it.83.100.250.79 (talk) 07:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I like an optical viewfinder for really bright or dim environments. When it's bright outside the LCD often gets washed out and is pretty hard to see, but the optical works fine. When I'm in a dim environment and don't/can't use a flash, then the optical lets me pull the camera in close and steady it with my arms and head. If I was using the LCD, I'd have to hold the camera out at a bit of a distance and would have more camera shake. Tobyc75 (talk) 23:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

My 1952 Rollieflex camera has nothing electrical on it but the flash synch. But it's easy to frame a shot with the camera held directly overhead. Bugger to get film for it these days, though. PhGustaf (talk) 23:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I used to use 35mm film SLR setups - I decided not to embrace the digital revolution due to the cost of all the new kit required. One could readily see all the aperture effects by pressing a preview button, which caused the lens iris to contract to the position set manually or by an exposure-priority semi-auto function. These were bottom of the range Zenit-E or Minolta bodies with corresponding or different makes of M42 screw lens fittings, so I'm sure that more expensive equipment could/can do all this and more. I deliberately started with all-manual systems including an in-camera or separate exposure meter, in order to learn how all the basic parameters interrelated, rather than rely on automatic systems that would do all the thinking for me but fail to cope with non-standard conditions, and lessen my understanding of the processes involved.

I personally greatly enjoyed the challenge of working out beforehand all the correct settings as well as the framing and so on to achieve what I wanted in each shot, and the satisfaction of wasting as few frames as possible (film and development being not trivial in cost) through applied skill. I have watched digital SLRs in use and the philosophy of "bang one out, check it on the viewfinder, if substandard wipe it and try again and again" seems less craftsmanlike. Of course I was mostly a hobby photographer (though I did a little paid work) and I can understand why professionals and specialists might find digital systems (now that they can approach the resolution of film) more cost effective, and digital images more immediately amenable to computer manipulation and transmission (though film images can be readily scanned). 87.81.230.195 (talk) 00:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the zero power aspect is very important. That big LCD screen on the back is a huge power drain. Astronaut (talk) 00:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

My reason is that the image quality is no good to look at (especially if you have to focus) - typically they are ~250,000pixels , about 1million pixels would be a minimum for me.83.100.250.79 (talk) 07:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

There's a few things here. 1) Optical-viewfinders vs (eye-piece) lcd-viewfinders and 2) vs the-back-lcd-screen-as-the-viewfinder.

• 1 - Optical viewfinders work better in almost all conditions compared to current lcd viewfinders. Lcd viewfinders become slower/more-jerky in bad light. Optical viewfinders are normally brighter and produce a (potentially) sharper image. They also save energy. Doubtlessly at some point in the future lcd viewfinders will replace them but for now i've never used one that's anything like as good as optical in anything but perfect lighting
• 2 - Using an eye-piece vs using the screen on the back. This is a personal preference thing more than anything. I find I 'focus' (my attention) on the image more by excluding everything but that which I see throuh the viewfinder. Also there's good reason to believe for normal shots that using the eye-piece makes it more likely that you will hold the camera more steadily (less camera-shake/blurring). As noted above it also saves power as LCDs take up a fair bit of the camera's power. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I am British - speak passable Spanish - going to Cuba - would welcome current and currency tips. Ta.

As per subject heading, I am in need of advice. Our 7+7 tour and stay (including 3 days + in Havana) are all-inclusive but there will be times when we may "break-out" and do our own thing,so we may need to use Cuban Pesos CuP and at other times we shall need to use convertible pesos (CuC). But given that we can't use AMEX Travellers Cheques or USD, and also given that Mastercard may not be acceptable, do I really need to take bundles of £Sterling with me? Or what else might apply? All current answers (and links) on currency and culture will be much appreciated. Thanks in anticipation. 92.9.61.186 (talk) 23:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I assume you have had a look at the right section of guide books such as http://www.lonelyplanet.com/cuba/practical-information/money-costs If it was me, I would hedge my bets and take Visa and MasterCard credit cards, my ATM cards, and a bundle of tenners. Personally, I would also avoid "all inclusive" packages - if you have pre-paid for tour food and drinks, you are less likely to spend money in local restaurants and bars or even step outside of the resort. Astronaut (talk) 00:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

As a tourist, you won't have access to Cuban pesos, just the convertible pesos. Sterling, Canadian dollars and Euros are freely accepted, though prices are higher than you might be expecting. (I have been to Cuba 4 times in the past 25 years, most recently this past February.) Vendors in the markets don't generally take credit cards, so cards are only really useful if (a) not affiliated with a U.S. bank and (b) you are buying tours or renting cars and the like. VISA seems the best recognized card. There isn't a much of interest available to buy. It is a society that likes cash. (You will need about 2 CuCs per day for your chamber maid, unless you like finding water all over your floor or no clean towels.) Most hotels have in-room safes and I have never had any trouble with them, though everyone knows someone who knows someone whose hotel safe was robbed. You can also "lodge" funds with the hotel and draw against the amount. (There may have been a small fee for this; I can't remember.) If you want more information about my personal experience, come to my talk page. // BL \\ (talk) 01:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

If the chamber maid left water all over my floor or no clean towels in my room, I would call housekeeping and get someone round to fix it, and I would be even less likely to leave a tip. Ultimately, the maid could get fired. Astronaut (talk) 01:17, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

In Cuba, my experience is that everything is promised, and then not much happens. Your experience there may be different. // BL \\ (talk) 01:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Cuba sounds like Tijuana, minus the charm. Baseball Bugs carrots 02:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

With better healthcare. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

One thing to note -- You may understand Castillian Spanish, but that doesn't mean you'll understand Cuban Spanish, or, as some would call it, rapid-fire mumbling. Try watching Buena Vista Social Club without looking at the subtitles. Get to know the phrase un poco más lento, por favor -- you'll need it. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 17:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Earthquakes in Portland, Oregon

How much more (or less) likely is it for a major earthquake to hit Portland, Oregon, vs San Francisco or Los Angeles? --69.113.82.135 (talk) 23:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't find any stats on the matter offhand, but this article while largely a self-advertisement, does give some interesting facts about earthquakes in the northwest. Keep in mind the Cascades volcanoes, which are children of the plates that cause the quakes, start well north of San Francisco and stretch clear into BC, so certainly the potential for strong earthquakes is significant, even if there hasn't been a "major" quake to hit what is now Portland in 300 years. Baseball Bugs carrots 02:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You can check seismic hazard in the states from maps provided by the USGS . Note that the maps look at the likelihood of exceeding a certain level of ground acceleration within a 50 year period. Mikenorton (talk) 08:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

July 31

Please don't take offense

What do modern Germans think about the holocaust? Clearly a lot of relatives fought in WWII and lived and worked in the camps. Is this a really inappropriate question to ask a generation of people who were not involved and who would never even think about persecuting anyone at all. i am asking only out of curiosity, not with any personal predjudices. It's been a very long time now and perhaps we can speak openly and honesly about the past --russ (talk) 00:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I would like to discourage any anti-German comments at all - that is not the point of my question. I am solely concerned with answering my query. Please don't rant --russ (talk) 00:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Germans that I've worked with have told me that the Holocaust makes up a significant portion of their schools' history classes that discuss World War II. There is a tendency to demonize Hitler (which is not much of a stretch). Germany has become a peace-loving nation. That's my two Deutschmarks worth, anyway. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Almost every country has a few skeletons in the closet - but it always seems particularly harsh to me when you are talking to people who were not even born when the event happened. They had nothing to do with it - they could do nothing to prevent it...it's just an historical accident as far as they are concerned. Even for people who lived through the holocaust - it happened 60 years ago, most of those people were little kids or at most young, impressionable teenagers at the time. You can't hold it against them either. That leaves you with blaming people who are 80 or more years old...which is a really pointless exercise. It's definitely time to let this one drop. SteveBaker (talk) 01:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Asking what they think about it is not holding it against them - any more than asking a current American what he thinks about the Indian wars, or slavery. It's a matter of intellectual curiosity in each case - how do they teach about it, and talk about it? Baseball Bugs carrots 01:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

What do Americans think about the "genocide" against the indigenous people in their own country? There's a variety of opinions, and even a variety of knowledge and consensus regarding what actually took place. It's probably the same in Germany. Clearly, there are neo-nazis and other Holocaust deniers who think it never happened (or try to minimize its significance). I've heard that for at least one generation, the children in Germany were not taught much about the history of the period, though that has suposedly changed in more recent decades. One story I've read in the news is of a German jew coming back relatively recently (80's or 90's) with her daughter, to show her daughter the house where she used to live. She went up to the house and knocked on the door, a woman answered and the jewish lady explained why she had come. The woman who answered the door spat out an explitive about jews and said she was sorry Hitler never finished the job. Also, I've read that extreme right wing organizations (though still a minority) have done relatively well in Germany recently, so I'd expect their attitudes towards the Holocaust aren't very sympathetic. Still, overall my impression is that Germany is much more conizant of its past, much less revisionist, and much more eager to make amends and prevent the same from happening again than, say, Japan (or the US). -- noosphere 01:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Deeper into the OP's question, is the matter of raising the subject at all. If you think someone might be offended, but aren't sure, don't raise the subject unless it is necessary. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:44, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

While in Germany last year, I asked my brother this same question. (He lives there and has for years) His response was basically that the Germans don't really have any shame when talking about it. They acknowledge that it happened and will discuss it. They have no shame because the people below a certain age had nothing to do with the war, Hitler, the camps, or anything else. And directly quoting my brother (from what I can recall), if a German were asked how he could talk about the war, he would likely respond with "Why shouldn't we talk about it?" Overall, it's a rather intelligent and mature way to look at the whole situation. Dismas| 06:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Why not? We wouldn't get anywhere if we didn't ask ourselves inconvenient questions once in a while. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I live in Scotland and when visiting Ibiza a few years ago with my wife, we drifted into a German Bier Keller where we were the only non Germans and we were made extremely welcome by everyone in the bar. The owner politely mentioned to us that we might prefer to visit the "English" bar further along the road but we declined, saying that we preferred the civilised atmosphere in his bar to the rowdy lager loutish behaviour that we had witnessed earlier in the "English" bar, and as long as we weren't imposing on his German hospitality we would prefer to stay, which delighted everyone there. Thereafter, try as we might, no-one would allow us to buy any drinks and they were provided to us conveyor fashion all evening. We made friends with a young couple who spoke to us in perfect English and they have visited us in Scotland several times since. But in response to the OP's question above, it is always THEY who initiate conversations about OUR attitude to the Germans in respect of WWII and the horrendous treatment of Jews, Gypsies, Disabled people, and Homosexuals et al. It seems they are not ashamed on their own behalf but they do judge their parents' and grandparents' generational role in those atrocities as being as unforgiveable as we do in my country.92.21.59.68 (talk) 14:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the flip side, here's something to think about: My German friends expressed surprise that prostitution is illegal in America. The implication was that with all the sexual imagery America produces, you would think America would be more like France or something. I explained that to understand the American attitude toward sexuality, "think Puritanism", and that will explain everything. Hence you have nude beaches in Europe and nobody makes a big thing of it, but if some American celebrity forgets to wear undies in public it's like an international incident. They understood fully when I explained it that way. Never be hesitant to ask a question of someone from another country, just be sure to ask it in a polite or impersonal way. Most people from other countries like to talk about stuff about their countries, good and bad - provided you don't cop an attitude about it, since we're not perfect either. Baseball Bugs carrots 04:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Technically, prostitution isn't illegal everywhere in the US. See: Prostitution in Nevada and (arguably) Prostitution in Rhode Island. SteveBaker (talk) 17:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Don't believe that you can ask Germans any question about the war. There are still some tabu topics relating to the rape of woman and prostitution following the war. Don't suppose that you can talk about how these events changed the gene pool in Germany.--Quest09 (talk) 19:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I beg to differ,I have often asked German friends about such things and got into interesting discussions too... .hotclaws 01:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course you can ask Germans about Third Reich/WWII topics. Never understood all that "don't mention the war" business. Depends on the way of asking though. Being arrogant and patronizing won't go down well anywhere in the world with any topic.195.128.251.74 (talk) 23:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I went to Berlin on holiday about 10 years ago. I should say that I loved it. It's a very friendly place and I have no doubt at all that German people would never go along with such thinking today - things have moved along a long way in so many decades. That said, i do concede that neo-nazism exists all over Europe and the World as a whole. I visited an exhibition about the history of Germany where the whole issue was brushed over, hence my reason for asking. This was, however, whilst the Jewish Museum was under construction. Recently, I have discovered that my father was a lot older than i thought and would have been alive during the conflict, and thus I can appreciate that this may be the case for many Germans. That being the case, I am curious to know the national feeling of these events. Please don't misunderstand me - as a British Citizen I fully appreciate that we have done so many things that society now finds terrible: Profit out of Slavery, Persecution of Ethnic Minorities and so on. Much the same as our friends abroud, we have learned from the many mistakes we made --russ (talk)

New York City Maps

Im planning a trip to new york city and i need maps (paper) of new york city transit and the streets of new york (5 boroughs) Where can i get these maps online or by phone for free or at a low cost? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.64.15 (talk) 01:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Amazon.com has a selection to choose from. The "New Yorker's New York City Five Borough Map" ($4.95) (and perhaps "Streetwise Manhattan Bus Subway Map - Laminated Subway Map of New York City" ($1.95) too) seem OK to me. Astronaut (talk) 01:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

those prices dont seem to bad, ill probably go ahead and buy them, but are there any official maps printed by the city of new york or the MTA? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.64.15 (talk) 01:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if the city itself publishes a map. If you are staying in a hotel, try the hotel concierge for a free street map. The MTA presumably publishes a free map just like every other city transport system I've ever seen - they're usually available from stations and ticket agents, but obviously you have to be within the reach of the MTA system. Astronaut (talk) 02:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

There are comprehensive on-line maps of the MTA which you might be able to print out. I think one detailed version is broken down by boroughs. See Metropolitan Transportation Authority (New York)#External links. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You can get nice foldout maps of the whole New York Subway system (with geography slightly distorted, but good enough for trip planning) for free at subway stations (all are manned for most of the day). They also have more detailed maps of all boroughs with all streets (but not all street names) and all bus routes, also available at subway stations (though they are usually out of some of the variants). All of these are available at http://www.mta.info though the detail level is so high that it might be hard to print them in a satisfactory way. If you live in the US it might be an option to get them mailed to you (if you mail them the stamps and an envelope) - I seem to recall having read this on the map. Jørgen (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Newbie question: "!vote"

I notice that without exception, the editors on here type !vote instead of vote. What does this mean and how did this come about? Thanks. Torkmann (talk) 03:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

They're being funny. The exclamation point is used in some computer languages to mean "not", and they're trying to say that while some discussion look like voting, they are (theoretically) not a real vote. That is, decisions are made on more than just "(not-)votes", they include the arguments made by the "(not-)voters". Baseball Bugs carrots 03:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It's also used in a doubly-ironic manner. Since discussions at Misplaced Pages are not supposed to be voting, but lets face it, they really are votes (even if they have some unique rules, they are votes), when someone types !vote, they may be saying "Look, I understand this is not supposed to be a vote, even though I am really voting here, so I am going to signify my non-vote (which I know is really a vote) by calling it a "non-vote". Its basically a silly injoke. We have lots of those around Misplaced Pages, and you will soon pick them all up. --Jayron32 03:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

What this is supposed to mean is that it is the strength of argument that counts rather than the raw number of what could be mistaken for votes. So for example two or three good reasons for "yes" could outweigh ten poor arguments for "no". Astronaut (talk) 05:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I say it when I mean "vote" but want to avoid the inevitable (and wrong) "it's not a vote" comments. --Tango (talk) 20:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

All explained at Misplaced Pages:WikiSpeak. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  02:37, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Glossary is a less funny but more reliable source for such information. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

US gas stations

I'm going on a road trip to the US, and I know in some states it's illegal to pump your own gas, and in some places you have to pay before you get your gas. Where do these rules apply, and how do they work? (I've only ever used self-serve stations where you pay after filling up.) I'll be going through Idaho, Washington, Oregon, and California. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 04:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

The only state that I've ever heard of making it illegal for the driver to pump their own gas is New Jersey. And the stations that require you to pay first will generally have a sign (sometimes just a piece of paper with "Pay first" written in marker) on the pump. If you are paying with a credit card, then you can either pay at the pump (at most places) or you go inside to drop off your card with the cashier and then go fill your tank. Then, once you come back in, they ring it up along with anything else that you may be buying. Dismas| 04:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

After a quick Google search, it seems that pumping your own gas is illegal in Oregon as well. Dismas| 04:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. So, how does a full-serve station work? Do I just... sit in my car and wait? Do I get out to pay right away or do I wait until they finish filling the tank? Are you expected to tip the attendant or anything? Apologies if these are dumb questions, but I'd rather sound dumb here than there :) I really have never had anyone else pump my gas, and it just seems awkward and strange to me to just sit there while somebody else does it. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 04:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You leave your credit card with some dodgy petrol station clerk? That hardly sounds like good security practice Nil Einne (talk) 08:07, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

You pull up, sit in the car, the guy comes up to the window, you tell him whats up. He pumps your gas, cleans the windows, checks the oil. You pay. Tipping is nice but not required. If you want a depiction of this procedure i suggest viewing American movies from the 1950s and prior, where all the gas stations were like that. Torkmann (talk) 05:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

American movies from the '50s? I don't know if that will give the best impression of what it will be like. In my experience, the attendant fills the tank and may clean your windows but does not check your oil. And really, I'd rather not have just any gas station attendant under the hood. And back to the original question, if you intend on using cash to pay for your gas, you would go inside before pumping. Tell them to put $XX on pump #XX (they'll be numbered) and hand them the cash. Then go pump your gas and come back in for the change if you're due any. Over-estimating your total is better since the pump may have a mechanism for automatically shutting off at a certain value. Dismas| 06:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

A couple of small things to note if you find a self-service station, some US gas pumps have a lever on the pump (on the bit where the nozzle hangs when not in use, IIRC). The lever needs to be moved before the gas can come out of the nozzle. In California (I think), there's some rubber hood around the nozzle (for vapour recovery?). The hood has something inside to shut off the gas until you have attached it properly to the gas tank - you put the nozzle in and shove the nozzle's handle down towards the car.

As for pay first places, avoid them if they are very busy. I've waited 5 minutes to hand over my credit-card and then had to go back in an line up for another 5 mins.

The good thing though, despite Americans bitching about high gas prices, it is still a lot cheaper than here in Europe. $30 buys a lot of gas. ...And I have visited all the states in your plan. Ask me if you would like some hints on what to see :-) Astronaut (talk) 08:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes please! Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 04:05, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

You're correct about the lever. Though it's only on some gas pumps. If I'm not mistaken, they removed it from pumps so that people don't turn the pump off with the lever, then squeeze the handle a few more times to try to use the residual pressure to get out what is left in the line. And yes, the boot is for vapor (vapour) recovery. It's not as hard to use as it may sound. You just have to shove the nozzle into the tank a little harder than you normally would. Gas prices right now are around $2.60 or so near me (Note: I am nowhere near your intended destination but the prices will likely be similar). So with an 18 gallon tank, it takes about $45-50 to fill up from empty. Dismas| 08:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

$2.60 per US gallon is around $0.65 a litre and less than half the price it is here in the UK; but I remember 10 years ago when gas was just over $1 a gallon and it was around 75p a litre here (ie. about a fifth of the price compared to the UK). Astronaut (talk) 10:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Most (Self service) pumps have credit card readers now. That's super convenient. Forget pre-paying, or paying after or whatever. Just slide your card through the slot, (If it's an ATM card you'll be asked for your PIN) and pump your gas. Easy. However, some stations charge a few extra pennies for this service. Well worth not having to wait in line at the register, if you ask me. APL (talk) 13:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

How pre-historic - having someone physically do what you can do for yourself - and then charging extra if they happen to have a card reader!!!!!!!! Imagine the delay and queues caused by going into the office to pre-authorise the payment and then going to fill up the tank, and then going back to make the payment and then coming back to drive away. Here in Britain there would be countless murders on the forecourt. My favourite petrol station is unstaffed and I insert my credit or debit card in the slot on the side of the pump where it is verified before allowing me to withdraw it. I am then told to take my fuel up to a maximum amount and once I have replaced the nozzle in its holder I am dispensed with a receipt. Easy and fast - but then, this is quaint little ol' Britain. 92.21.59.68 (talk) 15:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? That's exactly what I do here in the USA! I just said that, just above your comment. I insert my card, I pump my gas, and I get a receipt if I want one. Done. Easy. (I usually avoid places that charge for using a credit card, but that's just because I'm stubborn; for a car my size the increase is about fifteen cents per tank.)

If you live in the stone age and don't have a credit card and want to pay with cash you'll need to go up and talk to the guy in the kiosk. Some stations make you pay first, others let you pump first. (The pay first stations are usually in higher-crime areas with a history of pump&runs, but they're becoming more common in general.) When the station isn't crowded it's not at all the inconvenience you're imagining. It does not take long to walk ten feet, hand the guy a twenty, and declare "Pump Five". APL (talk) 15:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the extra few cents to use the card reader has to do more with the station recouping its costs for having the card readers, and also to get you into the store, where hopefully you'll buy something. The profit margin on the gasoline itself is real low; they make much more money selling you chips and sodas and cigarettes and whatever.

I'm not familiar with the specific states you'll be in, but in the East and South where I have traveled, heavily populated areas will have almost 100% pay-first stations, with readers; only in very rural, remote areas do you find pump-first stations, which are pretty easily spotted by their ancient pumps (analog readouts and nozzles on the sides rather than the fronts of the pumps are a pretty good giveaway). Places like this will usually let you pay first if you want to, though you may get some funny looks.

An absolute sure-fire way to tell whether you're at a pay-first or pump-first station is to pick up the nozzle and flip the lever, if there is one. If the readout on the pump resets to 0, you can pump. If not, you need to give somebody some money to turn the pump on. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Ooohh - feeling a bit liverish today are we ducky? Well alright, you DID say that what I do is what you had already said you did - but it was YOU remember who added the bit about paying a few pennies extra for using an automatic charge card pump wasn't it dearie - something we Brits would boycott in a heartbeat? So stop throwing your toys out of the pram -there's a good boy. I don't claim to have any experience of buying petrol in the USA, but from what I have read here and in other places, the pumps there can be so erratic and corruptly adjusted so as to dispense less fuel than has been paid for, I simply do not believe that Ken in the kiosk, indeed not the customer either, could accurately programme the pump meter to dispense EXACTLY the right volume down to the last red cent. And I suspect it might be possible to pump MORE than had been paid for thus incurring another trip to Ken in the Kiosk?? So let's both of us campaign for British pump technology to be spread throughout my favourite holiday destination - the USA. Cheers. 92.21.59.68 (talk) 16:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Still seems to be some confusion. The few cents extra is for paying with a credit card (as opposed to a debit card), and it's simply the gas station passing on the cost of the credit card transaction directly to the customer. Has nothing to do with recovering the cost of the card reading equipment. --jpgordon 16:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You're right, Jpgordon. That's the idea I was driving at (that it costs a station money to have the readers because they incur a charge for each transaction, not the startup cost of installing the readers), but it was not at all apparent the way I stated it. Thank you for clarifying. this NPR story from 2007 is what I was thinking of when added my comment on the subject. It doesn't mention saving a few cents with cash as a strategy to get folks in the store, but does mention a 4-cent-per transaction credit card fee, and talks about how much higher the profit margin on items in the store is. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 17:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous, the pumps are all computer controlled. "Programming" them to dispense $20 worth of gas involves typing in the digits '2' and '0' into the cash-register. Just about anyone can do that. The computer calculates how much gas you can buy with your $20 and It slows way down when there's about a quarter of a gallon left to go so that it can accurately stop the pump.

It is not possible to over-pump.

This is all irrelevant for most people, of course, because most people use a credit or debit card in exactly the manner you are insisting is a uniquely British phenomena.

The pumps in USA are regularly inspected for accuracy. I've never heard of any sort of scandal involving improperly adjusted pumps. I'd be interested in knowing where you've read that.

Trust me. Buying and consuming gasoline in shamefully large quantities is practically our national pastime here in USA. We've got the pumping technology under control. (Fuel efficient cars? Not so much so.) APL (talk) 18:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, there are accuracy issues, in particular as regards temperature. Warm gasoline expands, so a gallon of gasoline at 90F contains less energy than a gallon of gasoline at 45F, and most pumps and most companies don't adjust for the discrepancy. I don't know if the EU deals with this. And there have been scandals; one example is . --jpgordon 18:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, but this is overblown, I think. The station's tanks are underground, and quite large; their temp doesn't really change much. There might be a summer/winter difference, but there are other differences between summer and winter driving that are probably more important. --Trovatore (talk) 21:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you everybody for your answers; what a phenomenal response! I feel much more prepared now. :) Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 21:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I know the question isn't about Canada but I can't help answering anyway - paying at the pump with a credit or debit card seems to be normal here. There are full-service stations, or stations with both self- and full-service pumps, and the price is maybe half a cent higher if you get someone to do it for you. Also, the amount of money you might lose based on the different temperatures of the gas is hardly anything compared to the variation in gas prices from week to week or even day to day. (It's also pretty sad that these days we consider anything less than $1/litre "cheap" - although of course that is still much cheaper than Europe.) Adam Bishop (talk) 01:51, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know where everyone else is driving but it's been so many years that I can't remember the last time I saw a gas station that charged a different rate for credit as opposed to cash. My wife claims that there was/is one in Connecticut but we've never stopped there on our travels. So that's one in the many that we pass in our travels. Dismas| 02:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

You only seem to find them most in rather poor neighborhoods. It's supposedly done so that they can afford to lower their cash price. The implication is that in more well off areas, everyone pays the extra penny or two.

Gas stations that charge differently for cash/credit absolutely exist in Massachusetts and Connecticut. That's really all I can vouch for,but I assume they're in other places as well. APL (talk) 19:34, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The reason it's rather rare is that the credit card companies take a very dim view of people who do that - they tend to withdraw their services and that's DEATH for most businesses. SteveBaker (talk) 22:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Weird impliment

I live in shared houseing and I have found this thing in the bathroom, now I dont want to ask anyone what it is incase it is something personal, but maybe you guys can help me, what is this. It is about 10cm long, and looks like a tiny metal toilet brush the bristle end is about 1cm long, a bit like a metal pipe clealer. the other 5cm of it is plastic. The bristle end is enclosed in a cap type plastic tube. Any ideas? What is this? what is it used for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 17:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Could it be a bottle brush? , or a Mascara Brush? Fribbler (talk) 17:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Naa, its half the size of either of those the brush end is about 0.5cm in diamter and about a 3rd as long as a standard mascara brush. and metal, and clean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 17:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a belly-button fluff removing brush - seriously. They are usually marketed to women for "the man in your life who has everything" at Christmas or Father's Day. Honest - this is no joke. 92.21.59.68 (talk) 17:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, it is a joke, the brush itself. There's a picture here. Another website showing a similar brush said it was custom made in Alabama. If that's the case, the States are apparently far behind the Brits in our Belly Button cleaning technology, because they can brag this beauty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Some jerk on the Internet (talk • contribs) 17:50, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay we are getting closer, imagine the 1st belly button fluff remover, but without a hoop. and also it is metal, the bristles are metal, you would noy want to clean a body part with it, it would scratch and hurt. also it is smaller than those by anout half, it is a TINY metal brush. Anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 18:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

A moustache brush? ny156uk (talk) 18:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Just asked my freind and I think she has it!!! It is a brush to remove hair from a sink drain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 18:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't such a brush once used to clear out penile syphilis? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.59.68 (talk) 18:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

More likely gonorrhea. As referenced in the Cheech and Chong bit called "Peter Rooter". Baseball Bugs carrots 23:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Surprised you haven't seen these. It's a tiny brush for cleaning between the teeth (known in the "trade" as a interproximal brush). Image of a pack of them, from a well known UK store. Astronaut (talk) 02:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

They don't have metal bristles. Theresa Knott | token threats 02:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, this finally rings a bell. It's a straight piece of (twisted?) wire, containing bristles on one end, right? My dad had one of those, for cleaning his old electric razor. Baseball Bugs carrots 04:38, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

check this link to a picture of an interdental brush, as previously mentioned but with a larger image. Richard Avery (talk) 14:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we know what those brushes look like - but the OP insists his one is entirely made of metal - hardly something you would use to clean your teeth and gums methinks. Still searching for an answer but running out of ideas. And I am sceptical about using one to clean an electric razor - for the same reason. 92.21.61.17 (talk) 14:27, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

It would really help if he would take a picture of the object and upload it, rather than everyone playing guessing games. Preferably next to a ruler so we know its exact size. Baseball Bugs carrots 18:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Trace

How would I go about traceing a freind that I used to know in high school, Liam Fishwick he moved to Johanesburg, and then disapeared, hell of a nice guy, I have trued friends reunited, and face book but to no avail, I dont know what high school he went to after. any ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 19:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any other friends from that time of your life? It may be that one of those people still knows him- or knows a little more of what he did after he was at your high-school. Your best bet is to to use people from the past and try to find the 'route' through to where he'd be now, given that you've tried the main social-network sites - though if you've not looked through your friends' 'friends list' it may be worth trying that as a bit of a deeper look into the business. ny156uk (talk) 19:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

The Internet turns up just one Liam Fishwick...it's gotta be a pretty rare name. Anyway - this guy is studying physics at the University or Warwick in the UK...he also dabbles in Linux programming and seems to play a couple of computer games and is a Jujitsu fan. Does this seem likely? SteveBaker (talk) 01:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Try this link vhttp://pipl.com/search/?FirstName=Liam&LastName=Fishwick&City=&State=&Country=&CategoryID=2&Interface=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.225.133.60 (talk) 09:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

He's named here.. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Finding sample size

Yes it is homework, but I am stuck...

We want to determine the true average number of drinks University of Michigan students have over a weeklong period. Assume the standard deviation is ~6.3. How many students must we sample to be within .5 drink of population mean with 95% probability?

I got 610? True? 70.169.186.78 (talk) 20:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I would direct you to sample size but I, personally, find Misplaced Pages's math articles to be too technical to be very useful. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 21:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

If you got an answer, in what sense are you stuck? --Tango (talk) 21:47, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Note - this question has also been posted on the Maths desk. I suggest people answer there. (For future reference, please post questions to only one desk. If it would be better on a different desk, we'll move it and leave a note.) --Tango (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Ontological past-facing indeterminism

So this morning I made an edit to correct one of my worst grammar peeves (the use of may have in a counterfactual), and I was thinking about how may have is for possibility in the past, but that could only be epistemic possibility ("we don't know that it didn't happen") rather than, I guess you'd call it, "ontological possiblity".

And then that got me to wondering: I think by now most people accept forward-facing indeterminism, at least epistemically ("there is no way even in principle to know whether this atom of Po-210 will have decayed six months from now"), and probably even ontologically ("there is no fact of the matter as to whether this atom will have decayed six months from now"). Past-facing epistemic indeterminism seems as though it would equally follow from quantum mechanics, and is fairly intuitive ("at some sufficiently distant point, it will be impossible even in principle to determine whether Oswald acted alone"). But past-facing ontological indeterminism ("at that time, there will be no fact of the matter as to whether Oswald acted alone"), is very counterintuitive, and also has icky political connotations (the "memory hole" in Nineteen Eighty-Four).

So I was wondering what the range of positions might be on this sort of indeterminism. There's presentism, but that's not quite on point; it says "only the present exists", which is too strong. I'm after more, "there are distinct possible past worlds, without a distinguished such world". --Trovatore (talk) 21:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't exactly answer your question, but you may find Black hole information paradox interesting. It discusses the subject of knowing the past with certainty based on observations in the present. --Tango (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, that seems to be talking about determinism of the evolution of the wavefunction, without any wavefunction collapse. That's a different level of abstraction. I'm taking it for granted that there's a fact of the matter as to which collapsed wavefunction is observed. --Trovatore (talk) 22:00, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

But that doesn't explain why we humans persistently refuse to learn from historical precedent does it, irrespective of the predictable consequence? 92.10.74.204 (talk) 22:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

There is a fact of the probability of this atom having decayed six months from now. Likewise I suppose there's a fact of the probability of Oswald having acted alone, if, as you say, it becomes impossible even in principle to determine. You'll have to explain why that should be so, though. I would have thought our ability to determine the truth of the past increases as technology improves. I do sometimes wonder about the possibility of converging timelines, though, in a multiverse. In that case, yes, there would be no single true past. 93.97.21.17 (talk) 00:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, the question of whether it's possible to determine whether Oswald acted alone is a different question from whether there's a fact of the matter. You may think they have the same answer, but they are certainly distinct questions — one is about knowledge; the other is simply about truth. --Trovatore (talk) 00:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Fine, but I wondered why it would become impossible to determine? 93.97.21.17 (talk) 00:23, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, well, as I understand it quantum mechanics works the same way in either time direction. So if a particular state in the present can evolve into many different states in the future (after wavefunction collapse), then it should also be possible for it to arise from many different states in the past. --Trovatore (talk) 00:27, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I suppose so, but is there anything that says that the overall structure has to be symmetrical? The way I imagine it, there is a lot less of this convergence going on (over the whole of time) than the divergence (which happens, er, all the time, so to speak). 93.97.21.17 (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

There's no question that it's easier to "predict" the past than the future; in that sense things are not symmetrical. However it seems plausible to me that, if information can be lost, then if you run the time out far enough in the future, enough might be lost that more than one answer to the question of whether Oswald acted alone is consistent with all physical states at that time. --Trovatore (talk) 00:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The way I see it, that could happen, but would rely on things lining up perfectly, so to speak, and so for any particular interesting question along the lines of "did Oswald act alone" the truth of the matter could for practical purposes be relied on to still exist and await discovery. This is largely my gut feeling based on a vague conception of the many universes model, but that's what you wanted to hear about, I think. 93.97.21.17 (talk) 00:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it, for the most part the physical laws are time reversible, but the fact that the universe was in a state of statistically near impossible low entropy distinguishes the two directions. That's behind what makes it easier to predict the past than the future and why we seem to experience time in the direction we do, and why there are situations where wave function components decohere, but non-interacting wave function components are very unlikely to start interfering, although it is possible. I guess that all matches up with what you guys said already. 67.100.146.151 (talk) 05:22, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Entropy is rather misunderstood too. Many people point to what happens when you drop a fine bone-china teacup onto the kitchen floor - smashing into a million little pieces. Then they point out the improbability of that event being reversed - with all of the parts flying together to perfectly line up to re-form the cup - and they use that to indicate that time has a "direction". But that's not quite the right thing. What they are missing is the improbability of the pieces of the dropped cup breaking up into PRECISELY those pieces and that they subsequently end up in PRECISELY those positions on the floor. Think about how many times you'd have to drop another identical cup to get that exact same result! That precise layout of broken pieces that you happened to get is every bit as improbable as that exact set of pieces moving together at precisely the right speeds and directions to exactly reform the cup. SteveBaker (talk) 22:49, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

headphones in Laptop

The sound in my laptop won't play in my headphones anymore when I plug the headphones in, is this because of a setting? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.143.158.205 (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It could be the sound card is defective or that you've got the volume turned off. But first try the headset somewhere else and see if it works there. Baseball Bugs carrots 23:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

When you plug the headphones in does sound stop coming out of the normal speakers like it's supposed to? 67.100.146.151 (talk) 04:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

That's the other part of the test - if the headphones work elsewhere, then it's not the headphones. See if you can play sound on your PC, by adjust the various volume controls. If it still doesn't work, take it to your local computer shop. Baseball Bugs carrots 05:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

When I plug in the headphones the sound continues to come out of the speakers and not through the headsets? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.244.184 (talk) 14:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Try another pair of headphones? --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

August 1

Double click vs single click

Would someone please advise how I can best explain to my 9 year old grandson and 84 years old mother-in-law; who it is that dictates when and why it is necessary to double-click certain icons and weblinks when at other times a single click will suffice, although there are no apparent guidelines available at the point of action, it being a question of trial and error. And for my own erudition, is there a technical necessity for one procedure against the other?. Or is this just a geek thing that mere mortals such as myself are not permitted to understand? And will it ever transpire that an industry-wide protocol might emerge that standardises single or double clicking as the consistent norm? Thanks. Dinosaur.92.10.74.204 (talk) 00:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Speaking as a non-expert, just an end-user: The purpose of single clicking is to highlight an icon without opening its contents. Single-clicking is used for hyperlinks because you don't need to highlight them. Single-clicks generaly turn the mouse pointer into a pointing hand. It's possible to set icons to open on single click; what's your operating system? Vimescarrot (talk) 00:26, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Under Windows - that's true. The history of this is rather contorted. The first computer to come with a mouse was the Mac (well - actually, the "Lisa" - which was it's immediate and short-lived predecessor). Apple insisted on shipping it with a single-button mouse (on the grounds that if it only has one button - you can't press the wrong button!) - that meant that if there was more than one reason to point at something and click on it, you had to use single, double - and sometimes triple - clicks to identify which of the things you needed to do. This winds up being pretty stupid - sure, with only one button you can't click the wrong button - but you can certainly click that one button the wrong number of times. Apple later added shift-click, ctrl-click and apple-button-click - and double-clicked versions of that. Now, that decision became kinda 'ingrained' into the psyche of people writing point-n-click user interfaces. Microsoft decided (in their inimitable way) to make matters even worse by having mice with ever increasing numbers of buttons - AND having single and double-clicks AND ctrl/alt/meta clicks. But this is not true of all operating systems - X-window based systems such as Linux and BSD Unix originally made do with only single-clicks and only two button mice. But that too is slipping and ctrl/alt/shift clicks are getting more common in complex software packages. I recall that on the old SunOS operating system, when selecting text, one click selected a letter, two selected a word, three an entire line or sentence and a gargantuan, knuckle-busting quadruple-click would grab an entire paragraph. SteveBaker (talk) 01:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

"which was it is immediate and short-lived predecessor" - (rolls eyes at SB's eccentric version of English) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course in most browsers in Windows double clicking selects a word, and triple clicking selects a paragraph (quad clicking resets or something similar) Nil Einne (talk) 08:05, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

X has used three-button mice and modifier-clicks at least since the early 1990s when I first used it, and probably from the beginning. The Xerox Alto had a three-button mouse in the 1970s (see this gallery). Lots of old X apps expect a third button and won't work without it. X on PC clones had to get by with two buttons because that's all the Microsoft Mouse had. -- BenRG (talk) 10:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Web links are always single-clicked. It annoys me to no end watching people double-click on web pages. --Nricardo (talk) 02:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

If you're in a browser, you won't have to double-click. Double-clicking is reserved almost exclusively for windows explorer and other areas that are directly a part of windows. opening icons, files, and folders is double-click.

In WinXP you can change a mouse setting so that you only have to single click. I hate double-clicking, its seems like some nerdy idiosyncracy of Mr. Gates that has become frozen into operating systems. I hate computer mice too, but there seems to be no affordable alternative. 78.147.244.14 (talk) 14:04, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

goin mad

Can you just go completely raving mad overnight, or do you work up to it over some time. i am not mad, just interested if it could happen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.68.48 (talk) 00:57, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Probably, but there would most likely be a pre-existing condition and a trigger event. A deeply traumatic experience will cause PTSD and other conditions to otherwise perfectly healthy people though. Some conditions related to bi-polar disorders do not manifest until the person is in their twenties, but likely not overnight. But will someone just one day wake up and become a lunatic, no, likely not. Taggart.BBS (talk) 01:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course you can to go mad overnight. Just go and do something you would never normally do, buy that round the world ticket, buy those expensive shoes, get drunk and have sex with a complete stranger, or some other "insane" thing. As for the medical condition, Taggart's answer above seems to cover the main points. Astronaut (talk) 02:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I have to disagree with the above and say yes you can. See the above PTSD, Fugue state, Psychosis. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 04:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I would think a brain tumor reaching a threshhold point of some kind, and maybe various other kinds of head trauma, might trigger "madness" or at least significant alteration in behavior. Baseball Bugs carrots 05:07, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think a medical condition is necessary, I guess it depends on the character of a person, the psychological side (I know people will argue that the psychological side is dependent on the physical side). If you are one with a history of excessive emotional responses, rapid mood swings and the like, I suppose one can't rule it out that you could just plain freak out when something breaks, when you reach a tipping point. IMHO. --Ouro (blah blah) 07:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a worthless non-expert impression, but I think that some drugs (e.g. hallucinogens) and some techniques of inquisitors, interrogators and torturers can induce psychosis, hallucinations and other severe mental distortions rather quickly. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:37, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Excluding drugs and suchlike there normally is some signs that people can point out afterwards, but it is perfectly possible for a person to be considered to be okay one day and to be talking to parking meters the next. Dmcq (talk) 20:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

What sort of activity has the original questioner found to bring one proximal to madness? Bus stop (talk) 14:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Editing wikipedia could do it. :) Baseball Bugs carrots 14:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. Bus stop (talk) 14:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Obtaining worthless currency

I was reading some articles on hyperinflation and wondered a couple things. First of all, what happens to all the worthless money when it's replaced? Is it just thrown away, or is it sitting somewhere? If so, how would I go about obtaining some (I live in the US)? I think having a few million old Zimbabwean dollars would be cool. ZS 00:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The currency quite literally isn't worth the paper it is printed on. Generally, worthless currency usually becomes kindling or asswipe or housing insulation or some other marginally useful product, since you can't actuall spend it. You can buy the stuff on ebay. (I tried to print a link here, but the spam filter kicked it back). Do a search for "Zimbabwe $100 trillion" and there are dozens of sellers of the stuff. The going rate seems to be about one dollar per bill, that is usually sets of ten bills for ten bucks, which seems to me to be MUCH more than the stuff would be worth in spending cash in Zimbabwe. But if you got ten bucks to spend and want to have a unique collectors item, ebay has it for you! --Jayron32 02:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Yep. eBay has a "$100 trillion Zimbabwean dollar note" starting at GBP 3.00. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  02:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Back in 2001, I was given a 10,000,000 Turkish Lira by a Turkish friend of mine. And the guy I sat next to at work last year, had a friend who worked in the company's Johannesburg office (or maybe the Harare office). He was constantly reminding this friend to send him a promised 10,000,000 Zimbabwean dollars note. By the time the friend eventually got around to it, I think he sent a Z$ 10,000,000,000 note instead! As to getting such large denomination notes, I think you would need a friend who is there. Alternatively try eBay. Astronaut (talk) 02:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Stamps are also interesting from hyperinflationary periods - I've got some from 1924 Germany, which had to be overstamped twice before they made it to people (to up the price/value). They're collectible since they're "special". I'm sure you can find them online. - Jarry1250  08:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The point being that such currency might have some value as a collectible, but that's about it. Confederate money would be a good example. So would razzbuckniks, if you can find any. Baseball Bugs carrots 04:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

In answer to one of the other question, the German government burned (supposedly) all the old currency. Of course, some survived, but the idea was to ensure no-one continued to use the old currency; in order for the new one to work, there had to be no alternative. I don't know exactly how they got hold of the currency, but I'm guessing they were swapped at banks, like with other currency changes. - Jarry1250  08:38, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Why would people use worthless currency? Was the danger that someone might be fool enough to accept an old zillion-mark note as if it were worth a zillion new marks? —Tamfang (talk) 18:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Note that Jayron isn't being rhetorical with his comments above; see this Freakonomics bit on how far the Zim dollar fell. — Lomn 12:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

When my aunt was a girl, in the 1930s, she collected stamps from around the world. She had a couple of German stamps issued by the Weimar government. They had overstamped the value of the stamps, so that old 4 Mark stamps would now read 4,000,000 Marks. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

A couple of years ago I was in Romania after they'd transitioned from the old Lei to the new Lei (just knocked 4 zero's off), and both notes were in circulation. So I'd pay for something that cost 15RON with, maybe, a 5RON bill and a 100,000ROL bill. That made getting change a lot of fun. Tobyc75 (talk) 23:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I actually have a 1 Zim$ coin from before the plunge. Pretty cool actually, even if it is only worth as much as the aluminum it is made with. Googlemeister (talk) 13:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Burmese/Large Cat Cross

Hi Guys,

Is it possible for someone to breed a burmese with an other large cat, Something like a Maine Coon or a Norweigan Forest cat? I'm not currently aware of any breeds which combine the Burmese Affection for humans and just the large size.

Any Ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.138.157 (talk) 06:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

All domestic house cats are members of the same species; Felis catus and are fully able to interbreed. Unlike dogs, where physical size difference may prevent successful mating and/or gestation, cats are all roughly the same size; that is the really big ones aren't 20 times the size of the really little ones like dogs. So there is no real barrier to mating a Burmese with a Maine Coon. I am not sure, however, what traits you will get. You may end up with a large, hairy, friendly cat; but you could also end up with one that has all of the Maine Coon's surliness and none of the Burmese's affection. But yeah, there is no actual barrier to mixing those two breeds. --Jayron32 14:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Certainly when you cross two kinds of animal, you might get the best of the two original animals - but you might also get the worst. But it may be more complicated than that:

• Perhaps, the reason that the smaller cat is more affectionate is that it is in greater need of you (as a VERY large animal) to support them. The larger animal, being less needy of help might be surly as a result. That's just an example - but there could be any number of other genetic connections that might completely prevent you ever getting a large-but-friendly cat by simple inter-breeding.
• Perhaps the gene for "largeness" and the gene for "surliness" could end up being the exact same gene.
• It's also possible that the genetics of "largeness" and "friendliness" are both very complicated interactions of hundreds of genes. That would perhaps result in a merely medium-sized cat that's only moderately friendly...or it might result in there being only a vanishingly small probability of the offspring having all of the friendliness genes - so you could wind up with a bunch of small, unfriendly cats - and never get anything else!

The bottom line is that it might be possible - or it might be impossible. Unless you could find someone who'd actually succeeded already - we really have no way to know without doing either a lot of hit-and-miss breeding efforts or a truly insanely difficult scientific study that would likely cost far more than it's results could ever warrant. SteveBaker (talk) 22:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Raw steak on a Black Eye

How did this remedy get started? I can't find any info about it other than it doesn't work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.3.244 (talk) 15:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Raw steak from the fridge is cold and flexible, so it will tend to keep the swelling down like an icepack. Similar home remedies involve using a bag of frozen peas or frozen corn. My understanding anyways. --Jayron32 18:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

And given that the current remedy is a cold pack, I don't think a cold, raw steak is really the worst thing you could use in a pre-cold pack era. It maintains its temperature fairly well. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

And once it thaws you can heat-and-it. Not recommended for a modern cold-pack. Baseball Bugs carrots 18:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Using raw steak started long before fridges,I can remember it being mentioned by Dickens.The blood supposedly "drew" the blood out which sounds like sympathetic magic to me,...hotclaws 01:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

They might have been right for the wrong reason. It's been known to happen. Baseball Bugs carrots 14:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Muscovy Ducks

any ideas about the muscovy ducks, my daughter wants one for a pet. do people actually have these types of pets? any info on how to take care of the baby ones? User:Jaimeandjustin

Note - this was entered into article space in error - transferred here Exxolon (talk) 18:38, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you read Muscovy duck. If you have sufficient space they make a tolerable pet. If you search the web there is plenty of information on caring for young ducks.86.4.181.14 (talk) 07:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

You should get a book on keeping ducks. A single duck won't be happy. --Sean 14:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

General examinations for wannabe grads

Besides the GRE, what general (not only for law or medicine) examinations are there for graduates? --Quest09 (talk) 19:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course - we have a list! Adam Bishop (talk) 18:23, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Sound and Laptop

When I plug in the headphones the sound continues to come out of the speakers and not through the headsets? Do I have the settings incorrect or is it my soundcard? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.244.184 (talk) 19:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

You could have a faulty headphone socket or faulty headphones. When the circuit is completed by plugging in your headphones your speakers should cut out and the headphones produce sound. Exxolon (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Depending on the type of headphones, there might be other reasons. I use USB headphones which have a rather temperamental relationship with some software. Algebraist 20:23, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This question sounds familiar somehow (yes, it's a continuation of "headphones in Laptop" from July 31. Try the headphones with another device. Then you'll know if it's the headphones or the device that's malfunctioning. Baseball Bugs carrots 14:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

If you're using USB headphones, you may find that the software you currently have running and playing sounds will start to do so through the headphones if you exit and restart the application in question. That's how it works with my headphones, although I'm not quite sure why. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 22:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

August 2

environmental vegetarianism

i read the article about it and i got pretty much confused whether environmental vegetarianism actually contributes to sustainability r not.

can anyone help me about the actual merits and demerits of environmental vegetarianism?

thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.142.233 (talk) 06:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The jury's still out on whether vegetarianism is the most sustainable diet (although it's certainly more sustainable than a steady diet of Big Macs). You may want to read my article on the subject at http://life-user.blogspot.com/2009/07/why-i-ex-vegetarian.html. NeonMerlin 07:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Mylan Engel's "The Immorality of Eating Meat" always seemed like a quality defense of vegetarian and it does involve environmental grounds. Here is a copy of the paper.--droptone (talk) 12:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Unemployment and humanism

If everyone has value to society, how can there be so many people whom society isn't willing to pay for? 99.225.250.31 (talk) 07:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The law may set a lower limit on what people can be paid, in which case they may not be paid anything! Logically you may be also able to deduce that your assumption "everyone has value to society" is not true. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

(slightly political) It's also possible to say that in a pyramid like social structure there will be many people whose value lies in being at the bottom. This linked image outlines the ancient principles http://www.aldokkan.com/society/social_pyramid.jpg 83.100.250.79 (talk) 13:35, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

From where does this stated notion derive that "everyone has value to society?" I'm not questioning it, I'm just wondering what its source is. Bus stop (talk) 13:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I think answers may be found in unemployment - specifically in a market driven employment market it's not always (isn't) economically viable (profitable) to employ everyone. Additionally in an industrialised society the use of machines to increase productivity per person results in less work for people in general - and therefor - unemployment.83.100.250.79 (talk) 14:04, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

A large portion (what portion varies from country to country and time to time) of unemployed people are just "between jobs" rather than long term unemployed. The labour market is very illiquid, so it's not unusual for someone perfectly employable to take some time to find a new job after losing their old one. --Tango (talk) 18:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

When a company says its value is in its employees it often means it's just about to make whole bunch of them redundant. Value can be negative as well as positive. Dmcq (talk) 19:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a mixed-up question - so you get a three-way answer to think about!

1. I simply don't believe that "everyone has value to society". People who live a life of crime or who expect to live their entire lives on handouts of various kinds may not be providing society with any value whatever. Many other people provide some small value, but still less than they cost. If those people simply vanished overnight, society would undoubtedly be better off. The moral difficulty is that in many (most?) of those cases, the reason they are worthless to society is something that's beyond their individual control and indeed their situation may even be the fault of society at large. However, that doesn't alter the fact of their lack of value. So why isn't society willing to pay for these people? Well, it's obvious: because their value is zero...or, quite possibly, negative...duh! As it happens, we DO pay for them in many ways - pretty much because we're morally obliged to (especially when the root cause is not due to the individual in question). But in many cases, you couldn't describe the support we're giving them as being given "willingly".
2. The big problem with the OP's premise is in linking it to unemployment...an unemployed person may be "worthless" right now - but what about later? Let's pick an example: With the collapse of the housing market, we need far less realtors and home builders - lots of them must be unmployed and falling back on the safety net that society provides for them. But does that make them worthless? Not really - we fully expect the property market to recover in a year or two - and then we'll suddenly be in great need of these people again. Doesn't it make sense to support them in some manner until their skills are once more required?
3. The bottom-line of such willingness as there is to help these people is that we can all envisage a situation in which we might be in the same boat - there are very few people in society who could not find themselves unemployed right after their next pay check. Also we don't really want to have the sight of people starving to death or dying of exposure in the streets in the midst of our otherwise comfortable and civilised society.

SteveBaker (talk) 22:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Logistics exam question

I am stuck on one question, and am hoping you could put me on the right track

Toyota has been the international benchmark in the car industry, The Toyota Production System (TPS) was the basis of the lean-production revolution in worldwide car manufacturing, this included JIT, total quality management and continuous improvement. The company has taken this a stage further in the layout of the factory with workers grouped into areas to do particular tasks on the cars as they come through the factory; workers are aided by machines but not taken over by them. It has achieved high efficiency over conventional more automated systems that have more maintenance problems. It also allows for continuous improvement and total quality management to operate effectively. In developing new products, Toyota is using as many components from other ranges as it can. How will other manufacturers respond to this competition? Legacy929 (talk) 09:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

My answer would be that the other manufacturers should create the same sort of setup however it would also depend on other companies being able to provide the correct amount of stock when its required. Legacy929 (talk) 09:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The questions seems to me that its a sneeky way of getting you to list and describe all the latest techniques for operations management. 78.147.244.14 (talk) 14:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget that if other companies are prepared to adapt to compete there will be a massive capital requirement but - equally important - a massive investment in people. Training is one thing. Acceptance of change is far harder to achieve. Some have doubted that non-Japanese have the temprement to accept Japanese standards of behaviour.86.197.149.12 (talk) 15:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)DT

WP is not a crystal ball that predicts what manufacturers will do. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to compare and contrast alternative logistics strategies that the competitors might apply, and how they could gain competitive advantage. 130.188.8.11 (talk) 10:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Railway travel in Kazakhstan

Is it possible, as I've heard from people who live in Kazakhstan, to take a train between Aktau and either Karaganda or Astana without crossing through other countries? I've looked it up on the KTZ website, which appears to show one train every night at 20.53, with a long wait in Zhanaarka for a connecting train that arrives in Karaganda at 8.40 the next morning. But my Russian is not very good yet, and I'm probably getting something wrong. A search on Misplaced Pages tells me Zhanaarka is a district, not a town, and I've never heard of any of the other places on the route. The detailed railway map of Kazakhstan linked from the KTZ article is very low resolution and I can't read the city names. Also, the first train is described as "marshrut" - does that mean it's actually a bus? 86.130.139.236 (talk) 16:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I find this, for perhaps a partial answer to your questions: , and this: Bus stop (talk) 16:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

These links are not about Kazakhstan... the first is for Baku, Azerbajian, and the second is about Armenia. 86.130.139.236 (talk) 17:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. I just thought that the word, "marshrut," might mean the same thing in different areas. Good point. Definitions might vary by region. Bus stop (talk) 17:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

On this map Zhanaarka District (if it is 'Žanaarkinskij rajon') is roughly the light blue tracks on this map : http://www.parovoz.com/maps/KTZ.gif

- this suggests that the southern route (near to kyrgizstan) is taken rather than the northern route passing through russia. However the railway website isn't working for me at the moment so I can't check.

also are you sure it's a 10 hr journey, and not 1 day 10hrs or more - it's well over 2000miles// Sorry I can't be of more help.

Mashrut - It's not a bus (don't worry) it's a general travel term (eg Almaty Mashrut could mean Almaty service)- I think in this context it's the type of train service (probably means "stopping service") (there are no buses - joke)83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Also I think the major town in Zanaarka is "Atasu" (english) if that helps.83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

If you can list some of the other places on the route it will be simple to see if any borders are crossed.83.100.250.79 (talk) 19:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info - I found out some more. First, in this Lonely Planet thread it's mentioned the station near Aktau is called Mangyshlak - is that right? Assuming it is, Deutsche Bahn shows me a direct train to Astana, which takes just under 48 hours :-) Finally, in the same thread above there's a link to a much more detailed route map, which shows the line this train takes, staying just inside the Kazakh border with Russia. The existing map in the KTZ article misses it out entirely. I would change the link myself, but it's only a Geocities page and might vanish. Is it worth asking the author if they would release it for use on Misplaced Pages? 86.130.139.236 (talk) 22:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a 'mangyshlak' near Aktau (not clear what it is) on one of the maps - though clearly not the same as 'mangyshlak province' : Luckily this site states "Railways connecting the Mangyshlak station and the Aktau port are operated by Kaskor-Trans-Ser-vice and total 21 km." it seems to me that the atation serving Aktau is called "Mangyshlak station" and the port rail facility is named Aktau (or something like that)

Various travel sites describe "mangyshlak" as a station in the suburbs of Aktau.

Yes, it's worth linking to the map at the least, maybe - I found another here that might be better.

In fact you really want this.. - or more specifically start here - you can see the two stations near Aktau.

Additionally the best is not free 83.100.250.79 (talk) 23:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I've added the best map as a link to the article.

It's possible that this is a new track - there has been plans for expansion of the Kazakh rail network - specifically with a view to transporting goods from china to europe - I'm don't know if this is why that line is missing from the other maps - because it is new - but it is a possibility.83.100.250.79 (talk) 23:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Stockholm question

I keep forgetting what is the name of the big open square in the centre of Stockholm, near NK and Åhléns, with the immensely large, rectangular fountain pool. I seem to remember the name had something to do with King Oskar. What is this square's name? JIP | Talk 17:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Sergels torg is pretty close, but the pool is superelliptical, not squarish. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Also check the category Squares in Stockholm here , which may tickle your memory. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely not Sergels torg. Even though I've only been to Stockholm about ten times, I mostly know Sergels torg inside out by now. No, this square is further away from the railway station than Sergels torg. AFAICR it's only less than a kilometre south from NK and Åhléns. Sergels torg is on two levels, with the fountain pool at the top, and all the shops at the bottom. This place is all on one level, with a big rectangular fountain pool and bars and cafés surrounding it. I know the place when I see it, but I just can't remember its name.

If you get stuck - could you point to it on this map http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=ahlens&sll=59.331876,18.063626&sspn=0.00753,0.026307&gl=uk&ie=UTF8&radius=0.46&rq=1&ev=zi&ll=59.331876,18.063626&spn=0.00753,0.026307&z=15 I think I've got both your things on it, so it must be nearby83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Here is a picture of the square I'm talking about. This should help Stockholmians, at least, answer my question. JIP | Talk 19:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

This looks like Kungstradgarden (the photo on the bottom shows some facades on the opposite side). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like that's it. I've never been to Stockholm in winter, only in spring or summer, but the last photograph showing the square in summer confirmed me it's the same place. Thanks a lot! JIP | Talk 19:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Long historical trend in income inequality

Has income inequality generally increased or decreased since the Middle Ages? NeonMerlin 23:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that, at least in the past 200 years, income inequality has decreased considerably. While in terms of absolute income, the richest people ever alive are all working today (Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, et. al.), most studies agree that their relative wealth compared to the average person's wealth does not compare to that of those in the age of the Robber barons, who were far and away (at least in American society) the richest people ever, by comparison to the average American. The Vanderbilt family littered the U.S. with mansions which rival the largest palaces in the world (see Biltmore). Guys like Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller were no less well off either. --Jayron32 04:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

That's called "The Rise of the Middle Class". Baseball Bugs carrots 04:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

It really depends on how you measure wealth. According to our List of wealthiest historical figures article, itself based on a piece by Forbes, Bill Gates is nothing more than a wannabe compared to some of the pharaohs or Chinese emperors. John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, Tsar Nicholas II of Russia, William Henry Vanderbilt, Osman Ali Khan, Andrew Mellon, Henry Ford, Marcus Licinius Crassus, Alain Le Roux and Basil II, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Alanus Rufus, Amenhotep III, William de Warenne, William II of England, Elizabeth I, John D. Rockefeller, Jar, Sam Walton, John Jacob Astor and Odo of Bayeux all had over $100 billion in 2007 values, which tops Bill Gates’ current estimated US$40 billion net worth.

But, the question was about inequality, where the key is the total share of the wealth held by the few, vis-à-vis the wealth held by the many. In that regard, the ancient totalitarians would have presided over a far greater inequality than mere entrepreneurs do today. Further, the very wide spread of literacy should be considered as one of the aspects of "wealth" that cannot be overlooked. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

There is no question that income inequality has been rising the last couple of decades. But whether it has risen or declined since the Middle Ages is another matter. The rise of the middle class in the Western countries should probably have done something to stabilise it, but it is a question whether the steep rise in income of the top few percent haven't been so steep as to neutralise this development? The biggest problem in answering this question is probably the lack of precise information regarding income during the Middle Ages, but one should think that it would be possibe to make some rough estimations to use in such calculations. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

You might be interested in Gini coefficient, income inequality metrics, and list of countries by income equality. --Sean 14:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Although I have a few notions and a handful of sources, I'm no expert. But it is important, in discussing theory, general trends and specific cases, to keep the distinction between inequality of wealth and inequality of income in mind. Many farmers may own much valuable land, yet still struggle precariously when costs are high, labor is scarce, yields are low and prices are low. Similarly for a small manufacturer or merchant with valuable facilities or stock on hand, but low turnover at low prices. Eventually, as in the Great Depression, the capital or wealth is liquidated through debt, taxes and bankruptcy, or else its real value declines drastically, but at a given moment there may be a great disparity between the distribution of wealth and the distribution of income. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

August 3

Munich street sign font

Could anyone identify the font in this sign? This image identifies it as aktuelle Antiqua, but of course that is rather vague. Thanks a lot. WilliamH (talk) 00:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

de:Benutzer:Chumwa seems to have passable English; perhaps he'll know? --jpgordon 00:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

WhatTheFont couldn't find an exact match, but got pretty close with Schillerplatz Bold. — QuantumEleven 08:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Pretty close. Totally useless info: I bicycled by Aberlestraße pretty regularly as a kid; my trumpet repair guy worked near there. --jpgordon 16:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

TV.com's rankings

At TV.com I was checking a show and saw under Buzz that "ranks 1,441 out of the 18,265 shows on TV.com." Well, I wanted to find which show was ranked #1, so I checked the home page, and clicked "Full List." It showed Lost (TV Series) at the top of the list, but then on Lost's page it said Lost was #309. Well, then, which show was #1 and how do I find that out? --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 02:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Cell blocker/jammer -- possible?

In today's paper there are two separate stories about families whose recent summer camping experiences were seriously marred by the nonstop chatter of a man in the adjacent campsite; apparently he spent the entire weekend /shouting/ into his cell phone (because reception was less than 5-bars, I guess) to continue to direct things at his home office.

Got me to thinking, would it be possible to build a little black box that would block, jam, or just fill with static the frequencies that cell phones use, for a radius of, say, 50 meters. (Makes me think of the Cone of Silence, on a larger scale :-) .)

It wouldn't prevent Mr I'm-so-important-my-company-can't-get-along-without-me from talking at all, but it might move him far enough away that he would cease to be a constant annoyance.

Possible? Difficult? Maybe an off-the-shelf product already exists??

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 03:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Assuming the guy isn't carrying a weapon of some kind, maybe everyone gathering around him to listen up close would give him a hint. Baseball Bugs carrots 04:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

In the US, the FCC has ruled that cell phone jamming technologies are illegal (because they intentionally interfere with properly licensed and operated bandwidth). Similar rules exist in a variety of other countries. Dragons flight (talk) 04:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like gathering around the guy is a good approach, then. He's basically disturbing the peace. But you don't need to call the cops. Just hang around him until he stops. Baseball Bugs carrots 05:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

It certainly is possible to make such a jammer, and indeed here is one you could make yourself, although as pointed out such a device would be illegal and quite difficult to make, even with the plans. TastyCakes (talk) 05:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

From what I gather, they block signals in grammar and high schools quite frequently. Dismas| 05:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what country you are talking about - but that would certainly be illegal in the USA. One school in Iowa is considering doing it anyway - but it's pretty obvious that it's not going to be allowed. SteveBaker (talk) 14:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

If they do it by constructing the building in such a way that it is a Faraday Cage, I doubt that would violate the law. Googlemeister (talk) 15:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

And assuming it's "illegal", and they stop him from using his cell... it's out in the woods, so what's he going to do? ... call a cop? ... using what? Baseball Bugs carrots 05:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Unless the OP was planning to chase the guy with the jammer (which sounds a rather risky thing to do), it seems eminently possible he could call someone about it. Whether that person would do anything is unclear. More to the point, many people may not be comfortable using an illegal device in an illegal manner. Particularly when it gives some idiot a thing over them. Nil Einne (talk) 19:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)Judging by your use of the vocabulary "cell phones" I am guessing that you are not in the UK, but this site gives both general and specific advice on how to tackle it. I've had it enforced when neighbours insisted on having loud parties at 3am in Central London. The law has been applied in kinds of incidents, including neighbours having noisy sex (!) . The first suggestion is

Tackle the Source

First, approach whoever is responsible for the noise. They will often not realise they are disturbing you. The majority of noise complaints are resolved informally, and you may well get a quicker result than if you wait for an official to arrive. In cases where you might feel threatened, or where previous personal approaches have not worked, go to your local authority.

Hope this helps. -- Alexandr Dmitri (Александр Дмитрий) (talk) 05:53, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Possibly more to the point, he may not realize how well sound carries in the quiet of a rural area, and if his conversation is confidential, he might not want to be broadcasting it. Appealing to selfish instincts often works. Not always, though. Cellphone users have kind of displaced cigarette smokers for extraordinarily rude public behavior. Smoking and cellphoning at the same time would be the "motherlode". Baseball Bugs carrots 06:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm very skeptical of this guy's supposed cell-phone jammer (linked above by TastyCakes). By virtue of being a CDMA, spread-spectrum technology, cellular telephones are inherently resilient (though not truly immune) to interfering signals. The interfering jammer would need to monitor the signals, estimate the CDMA code, and inject signals modulated with the correct CDMA code. Spread spectrum coding was specifically designed to make this difficult - it's the same technology used on wide-band fighter jet RADARs. Even the term "jamming" is not really correct here. "Jamming" refers to broadcasting a strong analog tone with the intent to saturate the receiver front-end amplifier - but again, by virtue of the CDMA technology, that tone will be ignored (its energy will get demodulated by the digital decode, and its effect will be very small, regardless of how strong the jammer transmits). The jammer would need to broadcast a very strong signal over a very wide frequency band to completely saturate the cellular phone. As such, any interfering device is more properly a "digital electronic countermeasure" - and I'm very skeptical that a hobbyist project would be able to build one. Nimur (talk) 06:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I know the folks at ladyada.net quite well - and use their forum systems quite a bit to chat about Arduino stuff - I'm reasonably confident that if they say it works, then it does...and there are several reports on their forum system of people having successfully built them (although you can't always trust what you read). Of course they are taking a very large risk in selling it - it's illegal to sell or own cell phone jamming equipment in the USA...however, they believe they are dodging the law by selling it in kit form...I dunno about that! SteveBaker (talk) 14:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Can't comment on whether it actually works or not, but I would suspect it does since it was part of her thesis at MIT. I should probably also point out that they're not selling it as a kit or any components of it, they are just giving instructions for making it (she released the design as open source). TastyCakes (talk) 19:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it's only for GSM phones? Nil Einne (talk) 18:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Walk into a cinema in Hong Kong and your phone won't get a signal. Very common place, and very, very welcome. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

A kindergarten I worked at in Japan had a jammer, and you had to go outside to use your phone. I never understood the reason why they had a jammer, though, because it was just policy for the teachers not to use their mobile phones while at work (as looking after 3-5 year olds is a full-time process), and none of the kids had mobile phones. This was strange, honestly, because I have worked at many other schools with older kids who DO have mobile phones, and none of them have had jammers. I do believe they are a good idea in some ways, because sitting on a train for a long journey and you are trying to sleep with some guy sitting next to you giving you half a conversation is very annoying. However, I think they are not a good idea, too, because they block people's contact with emergency services, when necessary. I think some people should just be taught more etiquette. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 15:35, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it was to enforce their policy of no mobile phones at work? I know it seems a little odd, would make more sense for them to just monitor their staff properly but who knows. Alternatively, perhaps parents were creating problems, e.g. having loud conversations while picking up/dropping off kids. BTW, are you sure the kids had no mobiles? I know it seems unlikely if they were 3-5 but this is Japan. Perhaps some used to have them until the jammer came in? Nil Einne (talk) 19:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

While a jammer made for the purpose of jamming is illegal, it is not illegal to simply construct a building where one cannot get reception. That's how most of the classroom's in my old high school were, and since it can't technically be proven that they built them specifically for that purpose, they can't get in trouble. --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 19:36, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

One downside of operating a cellphone jammer is that in an emergency, such as a man wearing a hockey mask, or carrying a chainsaw, or a using hook intended for large fish, who is going around murdering people, unless there were a convenient land line, there would be no way to summon emergency personnel. Similarly, someone might have a heart attack or there might be a lost toddler. To me the only possibly morally (if not legally) justifiable use would be attended, where you operate the jammer while the a-hole says "What??? You're breaking up!" and then turn it off if there are no more disruptions. Edison (talk) 01:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why it matters whether the people who built the building admit why it was built in that way or it can be proven why it was built in that way. They aren't operating a device or transmitting anything. They're just blocking signals from getting in and out from a private building. There could be some exceptions I guess if the building is considered publicly accessible (which may include a school) but definitely in the case I find it hard to believe it's likely to be illegal in many countries, not without evidence. Nil Einne (talk) 19:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Did loop 494 in Texas from Humble to Patton Village once serve as highway 59?

This is something that has interested me for a while. I have family that remember Cleveland, TX before the bypass was built, and it looks as if one was built around Splendora Texas as well. So that got me thinking Loop 494 might have been the highway at some point. Also, does anyone know where to find references that show what the road looked like 10, 20, 30, etc years ago????

Yes, according to the Texas State Highway Designation File from the TxDOT, Loop 494 is along the old route of US 59, "From US 59 at New Caney, southwestward along old location US 59 to US 59 south of Harris/Montgomery County line." I created the Texas State Highway Loop 494 article; in the future, you might find that the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Texas State Highways project is a good place to ask these sorts of questions. (Also see List of highways in Montgomery County, Texas and Category:Texas state highway loops and spurs). Nimur (talk) 07:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

(Actually, Wikiprojects are NOT the place to ask this kind of question - unless it somehow relates to an article you are writing or editing that falls under their auspices. This is the correct place to ask this kind of question.) SteveBaker (talk) 14:12, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Scripts

Do we have a list of types of writing, and how they developed, eg Roman, Rune, Russian oriental, sanscrit ect —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 09:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

List_of_writing_systems? I think it's too broad to say how each developed, but there should be links. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

For roman see Latin alphabet, for russian see Cyrillic alphabet, for runes see Runic alphabet, also Sanskrit and Arabic alphabet Hebrew alphabet etc. as starting points. 83.100.250.79 (talk) 12:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Also History of the alphabet, and Phoenician alphabet for the ancestor of all those scripts. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Pint

Sorry for my bad English ! I read that 1 imperial pint = 568.26125 millilitres (exactly) ≈ 568 ml, but in the 20th century. Between 1795 and 1798, was it the same ? If no, how much ml was it (for milk) ? Thank you for yours answers. --Égoïté (talk) 11:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The pint article is pretty comprehensive in its explanation of various pint measures and their metric equivalents. However, no mention is made of it being different between 1795 and 1798. Why do you think that for 3 years the metric equivalence of a pint was different?

Is it possible you were looking at the French article fr:Unités de mesure anciennes (France)#Mesure du volume des liquides? It mentions an alternative pint of 48 cubic inches = 952.146 millilitres used in France during the "Ancien Régime" (ie. before the 1789 revolution). Astronaut (talk) 13:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the OP is asking whether the value between 1795–1798 was the same as the present-day value, not whether it changed during that interval. -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes I just need to know how much ml was equal to 1 imperial pint of milk in the period 1795-1798. Thank you --Égoïté (talk) 14:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The answer might differ from country to country, I assume you meant England or France?83.100.250.79 (talk) 15:27, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Imperial pint was not used in France, I think... It is there, p.101, note 17. Thank you, --Égoïté (talk) 16:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry the date 1804/5 eluded me.

Have you seen this site http://home.clara.net/brianp/index.html it states that post 1824 the imperial system was standardised (and has not changed much since), but also mentions that the definition of a gallon changed - so it's reasonable to assumed that pre-1824 1pint was not equal to 568ml.

Unfortunately I can't find as yet what a gallon was in 1795.83.100.250.79 (talk) 19:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

According to Weights and Measures Act there was a "Weights and Measures Act 1795" - most likely this will have the information you seek - the British Library should have a copy, if you can't find it elsewhere.83.100.250.79 (talk) 19:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers. I try to understand and hope to come here tomorrow. --Égoïté (talk) 21:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

"sayings"

I'm wondering what the meaning of some of the old sayings my mother had would be. The one I most recently questioned was: An itchy palm means money. But does it mean money coming in or going out? Does it matter which palm? Another one is an itchy foot, an itchy nose. Any history on the origin and/or meaning? This is just for conversation use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.77.229.75 (talk) 16:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

According to my grandmother (and m other), an itchy palm means you're going to gain money (or specifically win the lottery). An itchy nose means you have to kiss a fool. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

An itchy nose could be the start of Rhinitis or a sweet story.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I may get this the wrong way around but I recall my late mother saying an itchy palm meant one of 2 things depending on which palm. I think it went something like "Right to receive - Left to Grieve". Mebbe someone else with a better memory could clarify. 92.23.47.122 (talk) 21:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

PIG LATIN/CODE

Can someone decipher this: saihf hsaf hsaeht 'hslka gh'agh'a h'lag --67.85.117.190 (talk) 16:14, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't look like Pig Latin. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I dunno what it is and I have been trying to decipher it for a friend for the last half hour. --67.85.117.190 (talk) 16:20, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

rot13 doesn't work. A hint about context might be helpful. PhGustaf (talk) 16:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Where did it come from? Baseball Bugs carrots 16:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

We got nothing else. This was written by a girl he's interested in. --67.85.117.190 (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm - Google says "saihf" is "South African Investable Hedge Fund"...quite some girl your friend is interested in! :-) SteveBaker (talk) 17:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

It looks almost Klingon, although that is written with lots of capital letters. --Tango (talk) 18:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The reply is Klaatu barada nikto. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

What? Seriously? --67.85.117.190 (talk) 18:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

No, not seriously unless the girl looks like this.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

"gh'agh'a" is apparently a way to transliterate the Greek word for "grandmother". Adam Bishop (talk) 19:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

You might have better luck asking this question at the language reference desk.

It does look vaguely like Klingon. Could the original text have included capital letters? Capitalization is very important in Klingon. And is the girl in question a nerd girl?

It doesn’t look like a simple substitution cipher, or a simple substitution cipher with reversal, because the punctuation won’t work. And it’s not any kind of transposition cipher, because the letter frequencies are all wrong. Red Act (talk) 21:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't really look like Klingon, unless it has been transcribed from speech, maybe. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:43, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I guessed Klingon too - but I looked up the words in my Klingon/English dictionary shortly after the question was asked - and NONE of them are in there. There doesn't seem to be enough variation of letter choices for it to be any kind of code. But there would be little point in writing something so indecipherable to someone who you actually wanted to understand you. I kinda suspect it's deliberate gibberish. Perhaps there is more information in the way the letters are written - or what the letter is written on...who knows? SteveBaker (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The character positions look like they fit the pattern for banging fingers on a QWERTY keyboard. I doubt there was an intended meaning. Nimur (talk) 02:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

That’s true. Three characters in the text -- the one “i”, the one “e”, and the one “t”, are in the row above the home row. The entire rest of the text consists of characters on the home row. That’s got to be more than a coincidence. It’s gibberish. Red Act (talk) 02:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

¶ More than a coincidence, indeed, but hardly gibberish. Once again, Watson, I suspect that you have excelled yourself. Do you recall, perchance, from those sensational but unscientific sketches of yours, The Adventure of the Solitary Cyclist in the spring (I think) of '95?

My friend took the lady's ungloved hand and examined it with as close an attention and as little sentiment as a scientist would show to a specimen.
"You will excuse me, I am sure. It is my business," said he, as he dropped it. "I nearly fell into the error of supposing that you were typewriting. Of course, it is obvious that it is music. You observe the spatulate finger-end, Watson, which is common to both professions? There is a spirituality about the face, however" -- he gently turned it towards the light -- "which the typewriter does not generate. This lady is a musician."

Notice that while most of the letters in question, as you wrote above, are on one row of the typewriter, with but three on the row above, none of them (ZXCVBNM,./) are below that principal row. What would that suggest to your apprehensive, diagnostic mind? If the young lady in question were, perhaps, to apply her refined, spatulate fingertips not to the workaday dactylograph but to the more-suitable keys of a pianoforte, what sound might emerge? Might E, I and T correspond to the black keys and thus furnish a clew as to the correct white keys? —— Shakescene (talk) 23:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

English text typed with the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard uses characters on the home row more often than with the QUERTY keyboard. So I checked to make sure the text isn’t as if a DSK typist was typing on a QUERTY keyboard. It isn’t. It still appears to be gibberish. Red Act (talk) 02:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Given the context - is it even likely that it was typed? What would this mean on (for example) a phone text-message? Is this someone typing without looking with the phone in the wrong mode? SteveBaker (talk) 13:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

My thought was that if she hands this guy a note like that, then he should switch his interests to someone who's willing to write in English. There are plenty of fishies in the sea. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do would be to ask the person who wrote it. Googlemeister (talk) 13:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The writer may be thinking about the danger to Grade A eggs during a flight if there is flak,and the need to be quiet, since the message is an anagram of "a a a a a a egg flight shh shh shh sh flak." Edison (talk) 14:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

What is a confirmation letter?

Does it simply mean "a letter to confirm something"? 117.0.0.18 (talk) 16:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Simply what it says. "Confirm" means to say something really is true. Often after a face-to-face discussion where a decision has been made that decision will be confirmed in a letter so that you have it on paper. --Tango (talk) 18:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Some things that might be confirmed are an apointment, a statement said earlier, that an order or payment has been received, that something assumed is correct, the religious meaning or that a 3rd party vouches for you. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

In business it may also be called a COYA or "cover your ass letter." This is frequently done, perhaps as a memo of understanding, so that one party to a verbal agreement, or someone who gives verbal instructions, cannot later claim that the other party misremembers the conversation. Edison (talk) 19:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

But in the last Edison definition, especially in English Law, don't forget "the battle of the forms", which means that a confirmation letter could have a variation clause printed on the reverse, or be accompanied by another piece of paper bearing the variation clause, which, left unchallenged, would have the effect of incorporating the variation into the contract/agreement/or understanding. And English Courts are loath to subsequently overturn such incorporations when the usurped party realises he has been duped. As we say in Latin, "Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware". 92.23.47.122 (talk) 22:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

That is a part of the game. Things left up in the air at a meeting may be expressly stated in terms favorable to the sender. If carried too far, this may evoke a bad reaction from the recipient: "I don't know what meeting YOU were at, but we never said ....." Edison (talk) 14:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

You're so right. I qualified as a Member of the Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply many years ago and a large part of the qualification rested on a comprehensive understanding of "English" Contract Law. I am retired now but still use that knowledge when buying domestic and personal items - and usually to my ultimate protection and advantage. But I recall being shown a confirmation or acceptance letter that purported to "accept" an offer that had been made during earlier negotiations. The reverse of the letter was decorated with a beautiful faint blue eagle with outsretched wings that bore no apparent relationship to the "contract" nor even the sender's business. It was only when examined under a fairly strong magnifying glass that the eagle turned out to actually be extremely fine print in faint blue setting out a completely different set of Terms and Conditions from those that had been "agreed" during the negotiations. Left unchallenged, those decorative (and punitive) T's and C's would have been construed as having been accepted by the recipient and would in all likelihood have been well-nigh-impossible to have overturned following acceptance of the letter. Be careful out there. 92.22.200.156 (talk) 19:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

That would be trivially unenforceable in a consumer contract, and fairly dubious in a commercial one. This sort of thing (although not usually quite as inventive) comes up reasonably often in uk.legal.moderated. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 23:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Taxi Fare?

Does anyone know approximately the taxi fare from Stansted Airport to central London at about 10.30pm on a weekday? Richard Avery (talk) 18:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

This page says, with strange precision, "A taxi journey into London for one to four people costs about £99, depending on the exact destination." Unless there are several of you, why not get the train - there are services from the airport to Liverpool Street up to 00.30am for a lot less. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 18:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that Andrew, can't quite understand how I missed that page. Richard Avery (talk) 19:43, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Book a car in advance. This site is offering transfers from Stansted to Central London from £45 if paid in advance - - doubtless there are others offering other deals. By contrast std single way fare by train is £19 - if you're not alone the car may well be cheaper/more convenient (which says a lot about how rubbish our trains are). Exxolon (talk) 21:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

break bone and not know?

Is it possible to break a bone and not know that it is broken, say a wrist or an ankle? Googlemeister (talk) 18:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Toe is especially easy to break and not know. Also, MMA fighters and boxers will break their hand early in a fight and not realize it till after the fight. --67.85.117.190 (talk) 19:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I know it is possible for things like a toe, I am more interested in a structural bone that has to hold weight. Googlemeister (talk) 19:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

One can have a hairline break in an ankle and have it be called a sprain, even after a doctor has examined it, with the break only disclosed a week later by Xray when it is still sore. But in that case, it was not completely asymptomatic.Edison (talk) 19:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Bert Trautmann broke his neck playing football and didn't know an xray three days later. Algebraist 19:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

There are newspaper reports of people living for years or decades - sometimes in pain, sometimes not - with a broken neck. 90.195.179.49 (talk) 21:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

A schoolfriend of mine broke his arm badly enough to need substantial metalwork in it, but didn't know it was broken until the following day. He knew something was up, but he really, really wanted to play in a tennis match so didn't see anyone about it. I got roped in to help him work out a one-armed serving technique - needless to say as soon as they saw him try that for real the next day he got hustled off to hospital. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 23:36, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I have heard plenty of similar anecdotes. People usually know they have badly hurt their arm, or whatever, but don't realise it is actually broken until it continues to hurt for a day or two and they think maybe they should get it checked out. --Tango (talk) 01:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I once cracked a rib with very little force (I think in flopping down forward on a bed with my hand on it), and didn't know that's what happened until I saw the doctor. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

A friend once fought off a mugger by punching the mugger so hard that he broke his hand. He didn't notice until he woke up the following morning, by which time his hand had swollen to almost twice its normal size. I suspect the large amount of alcohol he had drunk had something to do with him not noticing 'til morning. Astronaut (talk) 05:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

So it would appear that it would not be likely for someone to break a load bearing structural bone and not know that something is very wrong, even if they are not certain that it is the bone that is broken, or if it might be a bad sprain. Googlemeister (talk) 13:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I once heard a story about a man who went into a doctor's office with a persistent limp-turned out he'd been walking with a broken hip for a week or so (Yikes)Library Seraph (talk) 14:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Then there was the one about a guy who went to a doctor saying he hurt all over. He touched himself in various places. "Ouch!" each time. Turned out his finger was broken. Baseball Bugs carrots 15:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Racing flags

For the falgs is there such thing as a "brown flag", "orange flag" or "purple flag"? What is white flag usually mean? Is "black flag" usually mean "NO WAY"? Is secure color flag "green flag" Is there such thing as a blue flag? Like Stop light flag warning meaning things is getting dangerous and somebody needs help.--69.229.108.245 (talk) 19:47, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the article you linked to? It seems pretty thorough to me. --Tango (talk) 20:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The Racing flags article really does say it all - but to summarize:

• No, there are no brown, orange or purple flags. There is a black flag with an orange circle which means that the car has some kind of mechanical fault which is causing a hazard to other drivers (like it's spewing oil all over the track or something).
• The white flag means that this is the final lap of the race.
• The black flag means that the driver has done something that's against the rules and has been given a penalty.
• The green flag is used to start the race.
• The blue flag is a cautionary flag indicating either that you are driving slowly and there is a fast car approaching you from behind...or that you are driving fast, but there is a very slow car ahead of you. Either way, it's a warning.
• The yellow flag is used for general kinds of warnings. Yellow with red stripes specifically warns of debris on the track.

SteveBaker (talk) 00:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

What does this apartment term mean?

What does 1 1/2, 2 1/2, 3 1/2, etc., mean in regards to apartments for rent? HYENASTE 23:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

If this is in the US, might it mean number of "bathrooms"? I'm in the UK, but I believe that in the US they use "1 1/2 bath" to mean a property that has one actual bathroom (with a bath and/or shower) and one room containing only a toilet and a basin. I assume it's fairly normal to have exactly one such room in any property of suitable size, with the increasing number of "whole" bathrooms being en-suites to bedrooms. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 23:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. In the US, a proper bathroom - with an actual bath in it counts as '1' - a smaller room with just a toilet and handbasin counts as a "half-bath". So 1 1/2 bathrooms - means that there are two rooms - one with a bath/shower in it, both having toilet/handbasins. There is considerable variability in how people count rooms with a shower but no bath. SteveBaker (talk) 00:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

It could also be number of rooms (small rooms like a bathroom count half). 1 1/2 would be a studio apartment (one big room plus bathroom), 2 1/2 would be a one bedroom (1) flat with combined kitchen/dining room/living room (+1) and a bathroom (+1/2), etc. In the UK the advert would usually specific what is being counted: "2 1/2 room apartment" or "2 bedroom apartment with 1 1/2 bathrooms" or whatever. --Tango (talk) 01:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

In fact, it could even be counting bedrooms, with a half being a box room (redlink?! wikt:box room will have to do). --Tango (talk) 01:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I just created a redirect for box room. Red Act (talk) 02:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers! Considering the pricse and locations, Tango's answer makes the most sense. HYENASTE 03:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

August 4

Beavis and Butthead recently

Have any of you seen the episodes of Beavis and Butthead that has been on MTV2? It's the episodes sans the videos, with four segments in the half hour rather than two. What exactly is this? Torkmann (talk) 01:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Syndication? Nimur (talk) 02:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but the original episodes (with the videos) were in syndication on MTV2 for years. Torkmann (talk) 02:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Heh heh heh. Edison (talk)

Army basic training record

I attended Army basic training at Fort Leonard Wood Mo., beginning March 31, 1964. Throughout the training a photographer took pictures of many activities and at the end of the training you could purchase a "yearbook" of the training period. At the time I did not have any extra money to purchase the "book". I am looking for leads on how I might find a copy of this book. (I won the obstacle course competition for our entire training company). There were hundreds of soldiers who "graduated" that June who probably purchased a copy. I would like to borrow a copy to make a copy. This may be a needle in a haystack but thought I would try. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Farnorthvet (talk • contribs) 03:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Is it safe to assume you have tried to contact Fort Leonard Wood directly? - Here is their website: http://www.wood.army.mil/wood_cms/ Failing that, if you can remember the names of some of the other guys in your training company, have you tried looking them up in online telephone white pages or Googling them? Obviously, it might be easier to find a specific individual with an unusual name, than someone with a more common name (for example, there could be thousands of Bill Johnsons but not that many guys called Matt Zwicki) - I'm also thinking that some will probably be around 60 now and coming up for retirement from possibly quite senior positions in various corporations - a site like LinkedIn might help there. Astronaut (talk) 04:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Good advice though I'd use Facebook on that last point as well as LinkedIn. Facebook is the #1 social networking site in the US and is bound to be for quite some time. When you set up your profile, be sure to include a photo of yourself from back then as well as today; photos will make it more likely someone will contact you after you find them. Tempshill (talk) 05:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Books of that sort come up for sale on Ebay all the time. Old high school yearbooks, phone books from small towns 50 years ago, what have you. Create an Ebay account and it can email you when one comes up for sale. Edison (talk) 14:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Future=now?

why is it important to apprehend the future needs of the consumers to stayy competitive in the market as a producer or service provider.Did APPLE do the same to get where it is now with no tough competeter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.95.140.188 (talk) 07:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Please read the top of the page, specifically the bit about us not doing your homework for you. As for Apple computers, they DO have a tough competitor called Microsoft; Apple Records, the record company founded by the Beatles has plenty of competitors all round the world (see List of record labels); and Apple Bank has many competitors in New York including Citibank, Bank of America, and many others. Astronaut (talk) 07:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, apples are in competition with pears, oranges, etc. It's tough out there. Baseball Bugs carrots 07:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Having re-read the questions, and taking into account the OP not using English as their first language, maybe he meant "Why is it important to comprehend the future ..." and "Would Apple do the same to get where it is now ...". Astronaut (talk) 08:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Any company anywhere wants to be successful, obviously, and to be successful they have to find the market for a product. There were actually quite a few small computers around when Apple first came along. They slowly disappeared, like the Hupmobile and its brethren, until we are left with just two viable competitor types - the Apples and the IBM PC clones. It's the nature of business - from many manufacturers (broad-based competition) to just a few manufacturers (monopolistic competition). Economics 101. When there are a number of rival products that are ostensibly similar, various factors kick in, including marketing skills and, frankly, some luck. VHS won out over Beta, not necessarily because it was a better product as such (Beta's picture quality was said to be superior to VHS, as I recall) but because VHS was perceived to be more flexible (2-4-6 hours vs. just 2) and - fatally so - the perception in the market that VHS was the future. Self-fulfilling. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually - the main reason VHS won was because of Porn. Beta tapes were proprietary - a typical porn vendor couldn't get them - so porn went out on easily obtainable VHS. Since pre-recorded tapes (both porn and mainstream) were expensive, the rental market took off - and that couldn't sustain two formats, so the one that had the porn won. Beta was (technologically) a much better format - and others such as the Philips V2000 format were superior to both VHS and Beta - but by then it was all over. Sad - but true. SteveBaker (talk) 13:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Apple/IBM and Beta/VHS are both instructive. Apple and Betamax were both superior technologies kept proprietary. The PC and VHS were made open through licensing deals, allowing a far larger number of participants in the marketplace. Costs came down more quickly and more enterprises promoted the technology. Apple (the computer company) just barely survived as a company, but then got back the smart guy at the top and has since become resurgent by anticipating the customer desire for simplicity in consumer areas beside computers. Also, they figured out that people will buy a computer based on the colour of the casing, which was pretty smart from a marketing standpoint. Basically though, Apple survived long enough on their cashflow from fanatics to use the same brand name in other markets, using the same idea of simplicity in the user interface. Franamax (talk) 12:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The Apple=Beta IBM=VHS analogy can be stretched too far. When Beta died, the change happened rapidly - in a matter of months, certainly not years. More instructively, when HD-DVD died and BluRay won, the change happened in about 2 weeks - a couple of key manufacturers flipped - and before you knew it the prices of HD-DVD players had dropped like a rock and stores had pretty much removed the actual media from their shelves. People who'd bet on the wrong horse were kicking themselves - but everyone knew that both formats couldn't possibly be here to stay. In both cases (Beta/VHS and HD/BluRay), the market couldn't sustain two competing and incompatible formats. However, Apple is still here - and they are still selling a decent range of computers. Their market share for computers is small - but they are in no danger of losing that share anytime soon. They have found a small, stable, profitable niche - and it's working out just fine for them. Fans of Apple computers are amazingly loyal. It has been said that if Apple was ever in danger of bankruptcy, they could file for religious status! Every new product is awaited breathlessly and devoured by the faithful. Compare that to the launch of Vista - with yawns and grumblings and fervent hopes that we can all cling on to XP until the storm blows over! It's a totally different business situation than Beta vs VHS. We have the bizarre situation where a large percentage of people who buy Windows PC's would really LOVE to switch to something else - but perceive (rightly or wrongly...and mostly wrongly) that they cannot. Adherents of Mac and Linux mostly wouldn't switch if you paid them to. It's a totally upside-down situation that's essentially been brought about by the abject failure of the market dynamic that caused VHS to beat Beta to allow Microsoft to crush Apple or vice-versa. SteveBaker (talk) 13:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Isn't that obvious? If you don't try to anticipate your consumers' future needs, how are you going to plan your product development? When your consumers' "future" needs become their present needs, you'll be behind—your competitors have product offerings to meet those needs; you're busy playing catch up. --173.49.9.21 (talk) 12:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Just as a side note - rather than anticipating customers future needs it is far better (particularily for a high-end/lifestyle manufacturer like Apple) to create and define a customers needs. ie create a new market.83.100.250.79 (talk) 13:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Certainly a part of marketing is to try to "create" demand. Hence the concept of advertising. How else would anyone have made money selling "Pet Rocks"? Baseball Bugs carrots 15:15, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Buddhist wedding gift, prayer, toast

Good morning.

A couple of friends of mine are getting married. Both are huge fans of Buddhist nun, Pema Chodron.

What would be a good wedding gift prayer, gift, and/or toast for two people who, though not Buddhist, espouse the principles of Buddhism? Maybe there are traditional gifts, prayers, or toasts. If you could advise me or know someone who could, please let me know.

Thank you. Have a nice day! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 512mb (talk • contribs) 12:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, as far as gifts are concerned, prayer flags might be well thought of. --jpgordon 22:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Fast Food Obesity in China vs North America

On my recent trip to China, I stopped by at several American fast food restaurants such as McDonald and KFC. After surveying the the people inside the restaurants, I noticed that all of them were very thin and far from what we in NA would call "overweight." This holds true for most of the people I see on the streets too.

Surely this must be a genetic difference between Orientals and North Americans right? If so, why are Orientals, on average, smaller - in terms of both height and body mass - than the average North American? Is their ability to not gain weight after eating junk food a result of a fast metabolism or is there something else in play? Acceptable (talk) 15:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

That fast food is available in China does not imply that Chinese eat fast food as often as, or in the same quantity as, Americans. It also doesn't consider whether the menu at a Chinese McDonald's is nutritionally equivalent to the same in the US. I'd look for much simpler reasons for obesity rates before jumping to genetic differences. — Lomn 15:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree with lomn here. Could be a matter of the Americans eat fast food 20 times a month vs the Chinese at 1 time a month, or it could be a matter of exercise. I would not believe that it is genetic unless there were some scientific studies showing support instead of just looking at a small group of people and not knowing 95% of the variables. Googlemeister (talk) 15:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The easiest way to get an idea of whether or not it is genetic would be to look at people of oriental descent living in the US. You can't rule out cultural differences even when people live in the same country, but it is far better than comparing people living in different countries. If there is significant obesity in Chinese-Americans then that pretty much rules out a genetic explanation (the lack of significant obesity wouldn't confirm that is was genetic, though). As for height, that's a combination of genetics and diet (and maybe some other environmental factors), I believe. There is a discussion of the subject here. --Tango (talk) 15:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, that would be the best way. However, while exercise (ie walking to driving ratio) may be closer, I think it's very common for even 2nd generation Chinese people to eat largely Chinese-style meals at home in North America, so I think the error in a random sampling would be pretty systematic. I think the best way to do it would be to study adopted Asian babies, raised in North America with no real connection to Asian culture, but I'm not sure if you could get a large enough sample size to get a lot of confidence, and even this data may be skewed by more "hippie do gooders" adopting Chinese babies than "average Americans". TastyCakes (talk) 16:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

A number of studies on NZ Asian migrants have suggested obesity is a big problem . Bear in mind this will potentially include East Asian, South East Asian and South Asians. And the reasons are likely to be more complicated then just diet Nil Einne (talk) 18:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

62000+ scholarly articles were found by Google - there's no shortage of research into ethnicity and obesity. Cardiology research journals seem to have a lot of useful information: Fast food and obesity in China seems to specifically address your question. Fast food, automobiles, television and obesity epidemic in Chinese children also seems to sum the subject up. From these articles, and the sources they cite, you can probably deep-dive and find all kinds of statistics research. "In Beijing, 27.8% of children surpass the standard weight guidelines. By the end of 2000, the obesity rate of male students in Beijing reached 15%, doubling that of 1990 and approaching that of developed countries." Your cursory glance at one or two restaurants is not a scientific study - as a single anecdote, it is virtually useless in estimating a population trend. Nimur (talk) 16:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure I saw somewhere that American Big Macs are bigger and saltier than anyone else's. Hm. Vimescarrot (talk) 16:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

You mean this Big Mac? Nil Einne (talk) 18:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I like how the British Big Mac has over twice the sodium of the US one but makes up less of the recommended daily intake. Apparently the UK government are bigger fans of salt. TastyCakes (talk) 18:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me to be a European thing. Well except for the French, but they always have to be different Nil Einne (talk) 19:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Neuschwanstein

How many rooms are in Neuschwanstein and what was its cost to construct and decorate? Googlemeister (talk) 15:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

And here I thought you were a Googlemeister. Googling "Neuschwanstein Castle cost" yields this link, which claims that Ludwig II built it on credit, and his heirs paid it back; the cost through 1886, when Ludwig and the psychiatrist who declared him insane were found drowned, was apparently 6,180,047 Goldmarks. Our article says 14 rooms were completed at the time of Ludwig's death, and this travel guide link says the guided tour is of "the 17 rooms that were finished". Not the most clear or definitive reference, but it may be sufficient? Tempshill (talk) 16:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I was looking to see how many unfinished rooms there are. I interpret unfinished as not having decorations installed, or is the definition of unfinished mean there are not any walls in the rest of the place? Googlemeister (talk) 18:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that's the number of rooms that were decorated, judging from the size of it there would be 17 rooms just for servants quarters at least.83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I was going to accuse you of not doing your own research - but it's not easy to find - unless you are a genius (like me) and realise that typing "Neuschwanstein floor plan" into google gives the answer almost immediately eg http://randwulf.com/hogwarts/castle.html

I leave it to you to count the rooms.

Maybe this is good too http://www.modthesims.info/download.php?t=241515

And the obligatory lego links

83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Royal Gun Works

I have a Royal Gun Works double barrel 12 gauge shotgun #PF1212 and would like to know the approx. year it was manufactured. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aidendevin (talk • contribs) 16:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

A post in this chat thread states that it was made in Belgium by Anciens Etablissments Pieper, a company that made guns from 1905 to 1957. That does not narrow it down for you much, I imagine. The Bluebook of Gun Values may help you; it's $5 used (plus shipping) through Amazon's service, or you could probably find it at a library. Tempshill (talk) 17:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

question about poker

In 5 card draw poker with wild cards, which is better, a royal flush or 5 of a kind? Googlemeister (talk) 20:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure surprises me that a "googlemeister" couldn't find this faster than asking us. --jpgordon 20:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

See here for a discussion of the issues involved in ranking hands with wild cards. --Tango (talk) 20:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Probable law sentence for fanfiction character

Please note that this is not a real scenario, the character involved is a character in a fanfiction: The character has been found guilty of hacking into government files and reading Top Secret documents. I want to give him a reasonable sentence, but have nothing to base it off of. What would be a reasonable sentence? (it's at the end of the story, so don't worry about story convenience.)--Ye Olde Luke (talk) 21:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Gary McKinnon apparently faces a prison term of up to 45 years for something fairly similar. BBC 94.168.184.16 (talk) 22:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Gary McKinnon, who is accused of the "biggest military hack of all time", recently lost his attempt to avoid extradition and now faces up to 70 years in prison if convicted. — Lomn 22:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

What country is he being tried in? We can't answer this kind of question if you don't supply such key details. --Tango (talk) 22:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

1. http://sherlock-holmes.classic-literature.co.uk/the-adventure-of-the-solitary-cyclist/