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Jokestress is editing your comments

James, you may be interested to know that, apparently without asking your permission, Jokestress has edited some of your comments (take a look at the Man Who Would be Queen talk page). I'm resisting the temptation to undo what Jokestress did to your comments, but only just. Skoojal (talk) 05:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 07:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this

I have appreciated your un-pushy editing style thus far. forestPIG 17:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks; that's nice to hear.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 17:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thread relocated here from Hebephilia

Dear Dr Cantor,

Just as a quick aside, regarding your work:

"Brain regions that respond to visual sexual stimuli in human males: Preliminary meta-analysis being presented at the 2008 annual meeting of the International Academy of Sex Research, Leuven, Belgium. (Collaborators: Todd Girard, Matt Lovett-Baron, and Thomas Blak)"

How do your results in 'normal' human males correlate with the 'normal' homosexual males of Schiffer et al?

"J Psychiatry Neurosci. 2008 January; 33(1): 23–33. PMCID: PMC2186373 Brain response to visual sexual stimuli in homosexual pedophiles Boris Schiffer, PhD, Tillmann Krueger, MD, Thomas Paul, MD, Armin de Greiff, MSc, Michael Forsting, MD, Norbert Leygraf, MD, Manfred Schedlowski, PhD, and Elke Gizewski, MD"

Yours,

Nigel.

The purpose of my team's meta-analysis was to combine all the previously reported results in functional neuroimaging studies into a single, large dataset and thereby to ascertain which brain areas most reliably responded to depictions of sexual stimuli. (No two studies implicate exactly the same set of brain coordinates.) The set of coordinates reported by Schiffer et al. did not depart from the overall pattern any more than any single study did.

On a side note, I have noticed that you are signing your comments "manually," rather than by using Misplaced Pages's automated name/time stamp. I am still comparatively new to wikipedia myself, but I have learned that the convention here is to "sign" one's comments with four tildes (the tilde is the "~" character). The system will then replace that sequence of tildes with your name and the time you saved your comment.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 15:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Dr Cantor,

Thank you for your conclusion.

Oh no, I like to sign manually. I do not depend on robots, wherever possible :) Maybe later.

Thank you for your responses. As you may be aware, I am an ex-offender, in regards to 'child pornography' downloading, precipitated during a period of intense, mental distress (I had used such images, prior to that, during lesser distressful periods).

I do have a vested, personal interest, in this area, but also a much wider one too.

One issue I do find intriguing, is the following. I am not short (5_11), my penis is bigger than the average gay :) and, apparently, I do not have a low IQ; I am an outlier in these respects.

I am ambidextrous, in that, I am more powerful on my right side, but much clunkier there (punching, playing guitar etc). However, I throw and kick with my left, and it feels a more delicate side (although a fast punch, would always come from my left side). I carry out fine work with my right hand (painting, models etc).

Although there seems to have been no viral/bacterial antecedents, during my foaetal development, my mother did go through a very serious and protracted period, when I am pretty sure, that her hormonal balance would have been skewed by aggressive and anxious secretions.

I describe myself as a bisexual, non-exclusive MAA, but my sexual arousal patterns are varied, across age, sex and type, and have shifted through the years (and can still do so).

Of course, my activities are (other than by computer, historically) always legal.

This may be of some interest to you (and readers), and is just a gift for the efforts you are making here and elsewhere :)

All the best.

Nigel.

Dear Dr Cantor,

“I am also mindful, however, that talkpages are for discussions about improving WP articles, not for discussing the actual topic of the WP article,”

I think it impossible to discuss the subtlety between hebephilia and ephebophilia (in fact, any paraphilia), if we have little confidence in their actual existence. This need not be an extended discussion.

“I do not refer to the plausibility of clinical and non-clinical samples differing”

Really? Thank you for the clarification. Of course, we could discuss the nature of the word ‘clinical’ in this context, but this is not the place. To review, it is plausible, that, clinical and non-clinical samples could differ for reasons other than those proposed.

“I refer to the plausibility of subgroup differences existing between two clinical samples (clinical hebephiles and clinical teleiophiles) but not existing between their two non-clinical counterparts (non-clinical hebephiles and non-clinical teleiophiles).”

Yes, I appreciate that - my statements stand.

The usage of the word ‘teleiophile’ (let alone ‘clinical’) is obtuse and incorrect. An ‘x-philia’ is only a psychiatric definition, invoking some perceived dysfunction, as suggested by ‘norms’ and other socio-legal measures. People, of any age, who are sexually-attracted to adults do not have a dysfunction. This is merely a non-MAA (an AAA). That is the ‘natural order of things’. There is no psychiatric dysfunction, associated with being sexually-attracted to adults. It is a psychoconstructual fallacy created by Blanchard - see later.

Before I may answer further, how can one be a “non-clinical hebephile”? Since one cannot be a “clinical teleiophile”, how can one be a “non-clinical teleiophile”?

“Statistically, these situations are analogous to detecting a main effect versus an interaction effect. I have no reason to reject ideas about there being main effects; it is the interaction effects that are implausible (to my mind).”

The situation is quite clear. You do not know why ‘active paedophiles’ are statistically shorter or NRH than the general population. Your inferential statistics suggest that there is ‘something in it’. There is little (if any) evidence for causality, only some overlapping inferential statistics. In fact, have you analysed against the general population? You have analysed against non-sexual offenders (of which, many will be MAAs, of course). Am I correct?

I will take your word on your rationalisation, although I do not see the applicability, here.

“It is rather premature for anyone (including me) to assert any strong hypothesis for what causes the effects observed.”

Noted - thank you.

“There are some obvious possibilities”

Indeed, ‘possibilities’ - thank you.

“which I discuss in my articles on the topic.”

Indeed, thank you for your work.

“I do not claim that sex offenders engage in their behavior with the same motivation as do nonsexual offenders. (Sexual offenders are highly heterogeneous as a group,”

Noted - thank you. Some of your paedophilic sample base was non-offending. Correct?

"however, and there appears to exist a subgroup sex offenders who do have the same motivation as nonsexual offenders; such people typically have both sexual and nonsexual offenses on their records.)"

This was the totality of your paedophile sample base, was it?

"Regarding replication, there have only been three MRI-based studies reported thus far (including my own), all of them within the past year."

Understood - very valuable, thank you. We are our brains, for sure - I do not dispute that.

"We used overlapping, but non-identical methods, so it is difficult to compare the results directly. I have recently received funding to replicate and expand the finding in a way that would do so, however. I do not know if other groups are planning anything similar."

“difficult to compare the results directly” Noted - thank you.

"I do not understand why you would write “I am not sure descriptive statistics have much worth, here, other than for academic interest.” First, as a scientist, my very purpose in pursuing this line or any other line of research is for academic interest."

Yes, but looking at a linear regressions etc, tell us nothing about causality, only correlation; academically interesting, for sure. Some of us deal with more than academic interest.

The inferential statistics are the only tool which moves us in that direction and, of course, we will use the data, as above.

“Moreover, descriptive statistics are needed precisely for the reasons alluded to earlier: One can only rule out height as an important effect in the basketball example when the researcher provides the relevant descriptive statistics on height, for example.”

No, one only describes a correlation. ‘Ruling out height’ is not what has been achieved.

“Regarding your question “Do you mean, in regards to the generalisability and validity (internal and external) of its discussed outcomes?”: No. My point is also easier to see by example: If one reported a correlation between two variables, a critic could (correctly) point out that correlations do not imply causation.”

An expert in statistics would, yes.

“If, however, one of the variables necessarily preceded the other in time (childhood head injuries and age at marriage, for example), one would, however be able to rule out marriage as a cause of childhood head injuries.”

So, let me review your position.

I plot % head damage in males, versus the age they get married. I observe a low correlation coefficient. You then tell me, that this is proof (you stated ‘rule out’) that head damage does not cause early marriage, based solely on correlations? You believe you can do this? Scientifically? That is the difference, between a Social Scientist and a Pure Scientist, I suggest

“Thus, my response is the caution that one cannot (meaningfully) use the presence of inferential statistics in a study—outside the context of other factors in the research design—as a method of assessing the quality of a research project or its conclusions.”

I have asked you to consider the possibility, that the outcomes, derived from the inferential statistics are bogus, due to cumulative, systematic errors.

You have not answered my question. Do you think they could be?

“Regarding your question “Do you not agree, that each of the tests…”: It is not clear to me which of the tests your are referring to. A test that is highly appropriate in one situation can be less appropriate in another, and vice versa.”

I refer to my question above. You know your papers.

“There is no ‘CAMH application’ of the term paedophile (or pedophile).”

Really? So how do ‘you’ define one?

“ There are only specific researchers, including myself, housed at CAMH; each of us is responsible for our own research. Our views do not necessarily reflect those of the institution, nor vice versa.”

That is a little worrying, in an ethical sense.

“Regarding the APA definition of pedophilia: The operational definitions for research purposes differ from those that appear in the DSM. I provide the precise operational definitions in each of my publications.”

Really, let me check - why do you do this?

How do you define ‘acted upon their urges’ or words to that effect?

Would masturbation to images or mental fantasies qualify, in your sample?

“I cannot speak for my colleagues, but my own opinion on the proportion of the population who are (primarily) attracted to minors, but who are not pedophiles is, “There is no way to know.”

No, but do you not hypothesise, that the millions of people who have sex with minors (and those, many more, who fantasise about such activities) and those who are apprehended in illegal pornography offences (only an iceberg tip, of course) may be a good indicator?

"(It's not the kind of information that people are likely to answer truthfully on a survey.)"

Well, we have had such a survey carried out in the UK, as it happens. This should be seen as the minimum, of course, for the reasons you give - but we are getting there. We also have some international research, indicating such attractions.

“I would happily predict, however, that the proportion will vary enormously with one's definition of “minors.”

Indeed, I believe that the paraphilia boundaries are well chosen, but for the wrong reasons.

We have done some anecdotal and evidenced-based research on this, but it need not be shared here.

“My primary criteria for a useful term is that it is precise, unambiguous, and invariant across contexts. Neither the word “minor,”

Boundaries, as defined by the paraphilia descriptors.

“ “attracted,””

Evoking a physiological, sexual response - may not be only simplistic penile/vaginal responses etc.

“nor even “adult” possesses those characteristics.”

Sexually-developed to full puberty.

We are speaking of sexuality here, not the legal domain.

“(I am not saying that the alternative terms fly past my criteria either, but I have little motivation to replace well-known but imperfect terms with unknown terms that fair no better.)”

I have defined them for you.

One of my issues, is that 'your' terminology is based on foundations of sand, and yet 'you' use these terms as your primary, selection variable. I have challenged Dr Seto on this, but he chose not to reply.

Tell me, do you think a MAA (as I have defined) is just a paedophile waiting to happen? You do accept there is a difference - No?

“I do not know what a “psychoconstructual terminology” is.”

I have given an illustration, above (cf Blanchard). It is the terminology, created, used and perpetrated by psychologists (and some psychiatrists ), which they believe to be true. They are often fallacies, because they are dependent on the imprecise and complex nature of the Social Sciences

Another example, is how homosexuality was once in the DSM and transexuality still is. Another, the ‘purging of demons’.

Thank you for your responses. You may answer my questions or treat them as rhetorical. I was just interested to know how you approached some of these issues.

Yours,

Nigel.

Nigel: You have every right to hold any opinion regarding my interpretation of my results; however, in order for one’s opinion to be meaningful, one needs to understand exactly what my interpretation is. As you can see from my answers to your prior set of questions, many of your beliefs about what I think were mistaken; your subsequent set of questions have several similar misconceptions about what I think. You are free to disagree with my conclusions, of course, but it makes no sense to disagree with ideas I don’t hold in the first place.

Your questions suggest that you are not looking to understand what I think, so much as to find short-comings in my work. Although I am always happy to answer questions about my research, let me instead save you from having to postulate another set of possible short-comings and point out that of course my work has short-comings. Science is a human endeavour; perfect experiments do not exist. Although none of what you wrote actually identifies any such short-comings, they most certainly exist; you need not expend energy trying to convince anyone.

I appreciate your thought that “Some of us deal with more than academic interest.” You are not at all the first person for whom a finding in sex research has challenged a sociopolitical belief system. Such conflicts continue to be played out here on WP as well as in other venues. Although I support everyone’s right to challenge a scientific finding—regardless of whether they are motivated by academic or by sociopolitical reasons—it is specious to use faults in research as support for one’s politics. That is, whenever research has led to an incorrect answer, the truth has rarely (if ever) turned out to be the view that sociopoliticians were espousing. The correct answer came from better science.

So, if your goal is to help improve the science, I am all ears. If your goal is merely to increase the apparent veracity of your own point-of-view by postulating (incorrectly) faults in my research, then you do not need me at all: You can simply make things up about my work. The production of rhetorically advantageous sound-bites through a willful avoidance of complete understanding is no better than is generating entire falsehoods. (Although, in the latter, one does not need to delude one's self about one's purpose.)

If you actually want to understand my work and are willing to consider the possibility that your sociopolitical (at least, non-academic) views are in error, then I continue to be happy to answer your questions. If you are unwilling to challenge your views regardless of what my answers could be, then (as I wrote) you do not need me here at all.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 12:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Dr Cantor,

“Regarding the APA definition of pedophilia: The operational definitions for research purposes differ from those that appear in the DSM. I provide the precise operational definitions in each of my publications.”

I should really like to know why you think you are able to do this, and still claim you are assessing 'paraphiles'?

I note, from one of your works, that you describe those who possess 'child pornography' as being paedophiles, by your definition.

You have elected to do this, yes ... not your organisation or your co-workers (I believe you stated this above)?

Yours,

Nigel.

Nigel: It is an error to treat the DSM as more than what it is: a committee’s consensus, based (where possible) on the then-current science (and on clinical judgment otherwise). The DSM (at least, in theory) follows what research shows to be the criteria that yield the strongest reliability and validity data. As scientists (including me) produce new information, the DSM committee incorporates it into its subsequent visions. If scientists were limited to existing DSM definitions, then the definitions could never improve.

Regarding 'by my definition', it is an error to treat a scientific use of “definition” as if it were a legal one. Unlike law-makers, I cannot simply declare what counts and what does not count as something else and be done with it. For a scientist, Mother Nature always gets the last word. All I do is to set-up a situation and systematically record what I see; it is the results that then say whether the criteria I used were correct. When my colleagues and I looked at the data from a large number of men who were convicted of child pornography offenses (but were not otherwise known to have molested any children), they matched the profiles of men who had no pornography offenses but did molest children. This finding was reported in one of the highest-ranked journals in behavioral science.

Thus, it is quite misleading to say that we merely "elected" to define child pornography offenders as pedophilies; rather, my colleagues and I demonstrated it. You can disagree with our demonstration of course, but (as I wrote already) if you are going to fault our work for things we never actually did, then you don’t need me here.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 13:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Dr Cantor,

“… of course, but it makes no sense to disagree with ideas I don’t hold in the first place.”

You presume that is what I am doing. Perhaps I am doing this, so that readers and, ultimately, the wider community who apply your work, understand, more clearly, what you are saying in comparison to what you believe. Let us be honest, you do not make that clear when you appear in the media - I know, I archive it. Just like Dr Seto et al, you cannot escape the widespread, ethical outcomes of your statements, due to your ‘scientific neutrality’.

I know you are gay. I know that the research suggests (by the same techniques you apply) that you have brain damage. That is how the populace would interpret the scientific research (and particularly those with a vested interest). Are you? Am I? Is ‘brain damage’ the natural evolution of the human race?

“Your questions suggest that you are not looking to understand what I think, so much as to find short-comings in my work.”

I suggest they may one of the same, until proven otherwise.

“Although I am always happy to answer questions about my research, let me instead save you from having to postulate another set of possible short-comings and point out that of course my work has short-comings.”

I have not pointed that out. I have asked you to answer a series of questions about the techniques used.

“Science is a human endeavour; perfect experiments do not exist.”

Yes they do, perhaps not in your sphere of study.

“Although none of what you wrote actually identifies any such short-comings, they most certainly exist; you need not expend energy trying to convince anyone.”

Noted - thank you. There are shortcomings in your work.

“I appreciate your thought that “Some of us deal with more than academic interest.” You are not at all the first person for whom a finding in sex research has challenged a sociopolitical belief system.”

I am not sure I suggested I was.

“Such conflicts continue to be played out here on WP as well as in other venues. Although I support everyone’s right to challenge a scientific finding—regardless of whether they are motivated by academic or by sociopolitical reasons—it is specious to use faults in research as support for one’s politics.”

Mine are not driven by politics, per se. They are driven by the search for truth, humanity and justice, and to ensure everyone with influence (i.e. pertinently, you) does exactly the same - as is their responsibility.

“That is, whenever research has led to an incorrect answer, the truth has rarely (if ever) turned out to be the view that sociopoliticians were espousing. The correct answer came from better science.”

Noted.

“So, if your goal is to help improve the science, I am all ears. If your goal is merely to increase the apparent veracity of your own point-of-view by postulating (incorrectly) faults in my research, then you do not need me at all:”

I have made my position clear.

“You can simply make things up about my work.”

Why would I do that? The logic and your replies speak for themselves.

“The production of rhetorically advantageous sound-bites through a willful avoidance of complete understanding is no better than is generating entire falsehoods. (Although, in the latter, one does not need to delude one's self about one's purpose.)”

You believe you understand sexology and sexuality, and your results, any better than I?

You are accusing me of doing this? You are accusing me of using sound bites, for personal gain?

“If you actually want to understand my work and are willing to consider the possibility that your sociopolitical (at least, non-academic) views are in error, then I continue to be happy to answer your questions.”

Initially, you will do me good favour, to point out anything I have said which is incorrect - anything, if you are able, socio-political or otherwise.

“If you are unwilling to challenge your views regardless of what my answers could be, then (as I wrote) you do not need me here at all.”

You are the creator of these socio-political viewpoints. It is you, who is required to justify them, here and elsewhere. If you are unable to do so, then one may be compelled to suggest that you may be in your position fraudulently.

Yours,

Nigel.

Dear Dr Cantor,

“ It is an error to treat the DSM as more than what it is: a committee’s consensus, based (where possible) on the then-current science (and on clinical judgment otherwise).”

Oh, it is much worse than that.

“The DSM (at least, in theory) follows what research shows to be the criteria that yield the strongest reliability and validity data. As scientists (including me) produce new information, the DSM committee incorporates it into its subsequent visions. If scientists were limited to existing DSM definitions, then the definitions could never improve.”

Yes, this is one input into such a document. As stated, ‘you’ are the creator of these socio-political viewpoints.

“Regarding 'by my definition', it is an error to treat a scientific use of “definition” as if it were a legal one.”

Well, how odd. You admit your work serves the DSM and the DSM is applied in law. Your definition is absolutely pertinent and that is why using it incorrectly is totally abhorrent and, in fact, unscientific, in the wider sense. You would not create your definition of any other psychiatric term, why do you choose to do so in the case of ‘paraphiles’?

“Unlike law-makers, I cannot simply declare what counts and what does not count as something else and be done with it. For a scientist, Mother Nature always gets the last word. All I do is to set-up a situation and systematically record what I see; it is the results that then say whether the criteria I used were correct.”

Yes, I am aware of the scientific method, but that is not the issue, here - unless your results are bogus.

“When my colleagues and I looked at the data from a large number of men who were convicted of child pornography offenses (but were not otherwise known to have molested any children), they matched the profiles of men who had no pornography offenses but did molest children.”

Again, you are well aware of the source of the samples. You do understand how skewed and unrepresentative they are of the general population? You do know how these people are ‘collected’ by the LEAs? Perhaps you do, but your ‘scientific neutrality’ is the blinker which selects the source. It is not generisable and you know that. Why have you not stated this in your media appearances?

However, to clarify, for readers ... what you are saying, is that, a proportion of your sample (but far from all of those who have been have convicted of such offences) have, apparently, slightly different brain structures (in some regions) to those who do not. You do not really know how these regions affect sexuality or if it is a cause or effect issue (or even statistical error). If fact, you do not know how ‘normal’ brain structures correlate with sexual orientation/preference/arousal … that being ‘normal’ heterosexuals, or those who were ‘abnormal’ but are now ‘normal’, i.e. gays.

I have no problem with that, if that is what is shared. I have no problem if my brain structure is different from a ‘normal’ person, because, of course, everyone’s brain is a personal map of genetics and environment, constantly shifting and restructuring, although (except in exceptional circumstances) not in a gross sense.

You state your empirical observations (without really indicating the selective nature of the sample, the borderline quality of the inferential statistics or your own terminology); this is incorporated into the DSM etc; that becomes pathology; pathology become danger; danger becomes civil commitment; civil commitment becomes concentration camp.

Socio-political - no doubt. What is worrying, is that it is based on foundations of sand and inconsistent terminology, and approaches across two, until recently, quasi-sciences. You are fine; you are young enough to have escaped the worse of the gay holocaust. Perhaps you should be a little more open and forthcoming about ‘your’ work (and being much more careful in its design and discussed outcomes), in the widest sense, so as to reduce the damage of the present final solution.

"This finding was reported in one of the highest-ranked journals in behavioral science."

Noted - thank you. Please clarify, were they psychiatric journals or other?

"Thus, it is quite misleading to say that we merely "elected" to define child pornography offenders as pedophilies; rather, my colleagues and I demonstrated it."

Only by your definition, which, interestingly, you have still yet to define. Your apparent 'definition' (i.e "someone who has been convicted for 'CP' is a paedophile.") is not in agreement with the DSM criteria.

You have not demonstrated what you claim.

"You can disagree with our demonstration of course, but (as I wrote already) if you are going to fault our work for things we never actually did, then you don’t need me here."

Well, as Limp Bizkit may say "... stop writing checks your ass cannot cash" :)

Yours,

Nigel.

Why "marionthelibrarian"?

Dear Dr. Cantor

Hello I was just wondering why you initially choose the name MariontheLibrarian? I mean were you trying to evoke a certain Image? A sort of psychological experiment on us here? I am not angry just curious. --Hfarmer (talk) 01:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

lol No. I just thought that my major activity here would be adding references from medical libraries, since most folk don't have access to them. (It's turned out to be largely true, I think.) "Marian the Librarian" is from a famous musical (I'm a fan), so I masculinized "Marian" to "Marion" to form the name. Why, what image did it seem to evoke?
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 01:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Really "masculinized" To my ear Marion sounds just as feminine. Marion Jones, female US Olympian, is the most famous person I know of who has that first name. I have known a few other women named Marion ( a Chicago news woman Marion Brooks. I'm sure I have meet or heard of at least one man with the name but I can't think of who. For that reason to me Marion sounded like a female name.

Add "thelibraian" to that and put "Marionthelibrarian" in the context of editing WP articles on BBL theory, autogynephilia and such... Practically everyone who has had something to do with those articles has been a transsexual themselves so I just assumed "she" (you) were...a transsexual. Specifically a older transsexual who from the looks of your edits was not offended to the point of foaming at the mouth by "Bailey's" theory. I though that perhaps that explained the relatively mild reaction you got from Jokestress. Back when I first showed my tranny @$$ here she jumped right on my head. (Revamping WP's coverage of Dr. Blanchard's theory and the controversey was my initiative. Before me there was just an article about autogynephilia which was mostly about how horrible it was and who horrible Dr. Bailey's book was. Little to no mention of "Homosexual Transsexuals" at all. Even then for a long time each article was half controversey.)

I see now that I totally misjudged the situation. I guess I need to get to the theatre more often and see that show.  :-) --Hfarmer (talk) 08:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

John Wayne's original first name was "Marion." I didn't think about it enough to try searching on the name first. And "The Music Man" is a classic; the movie version is also very well-known.

I had heard about the earlier versions of those pages, but I never gave them more than a glance or followed the talk pages on them.

I quite liked your comment about the BBL-theory and BBL-theory-controversy merger, btw. I haven't had a chance to weigh in there, but you actually changed my mind on the discussion. Although I didn't/don't have a strong feeling about the issue, I took for granted the logic of the controversy discussion being within the theory page. The perspective you provided hadn't occurred to me.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 00:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

"The Music Man" eh. Think I'll keep an eye peeled for that one. Thankyou for the above compliment. :-) ( If you knew what I used to say about psychologist in general you may not have given it.  ;-) )--Hfarmer (talk) 19:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

lol You sound insightful...in fact, you should have heard some of the things I have said about psychologists.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 23:46, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense in the Sexual Orientation Template

James, I think you should take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/Template_talk:Sexual_orientation. There's an ongoing debate there over whether what looks like extremely dubious content should be in the template. Your contributions to the debate would be welcome. Skoojal (talk) 23:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up; I've left my comments there.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 00:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

LeVay article

James, I've been looking at the sources of the Simon LeVay article. There is a quote from LeVay about misinterpretation of his work that is sourced to the NARTH website, an unfortunate state of affairs. The NARTH site quotes part of an interview with LeVay in Discover magazine; it would be much better to use the original interview as a source, but I don't know where to find it. I wondered if you could help? Skoojal (talk) 09:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll give it a whirl and let you know; popular sources can be harder to track down than scientific ones.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 13:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Found it. The link is http://discovermagazine.com/1994/mar/sexandthebrain346/?searchterm=levay. I've inserted into the Levay page.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 21:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Bailey and Juanita

According to Juanita, Bailey did have a sexual encounter with her, something she continues to assert. I added "alleged" to make it more neutral, but I believe what she says. Jokestress (talk) 17:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

People can allege whatever they want. Moving from allegation to conclusion of guilt is a habit one would be wise to avoid. I note that your edit is the third time you have treated allegations as if they were true.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 17:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That's because I believe they are true. That's why I treat them that way. Jokestress (talk) 17:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Children say the same of Santa Claus. The wise follow the evidence.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 17:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well IMHO the allegations are quite credible. Perhaps Juanita/Maria/Sylvia was just a bit off on dates or something. From reading Dr. Dreger's report and if my memory serves me the argument that it's not true goes like this... Juanita says that Dr. Bailey made a sexual advance on her but for some reason was not able to perform. She says that it happened after one of their clubbing excursions with the good doctor on such and such a date at such and such a time. Dr. Dreger says to that well we have email that says that Dr. Bailey was taking care of his kids at the time. The whole counter arguement hinges on drunkend people correctly remembering times dates and actions. (Things which people who are intoxicated are not known for). It's he said she said.

Like jokestress I am inclined to believe that in the kind of state he was allegedly in Dr. Bailey would have tried something. During that period a large part of his life was about transsexuals. Studying them, talking to them, socializing with them, at least the "homosexual" ones that he writes in his book about finding attractive. :shrug: Then there is my recollection of what little interaction I had with the guy. My personal impression is that he is a man of strong opinions and deep passions who when surrounded by temptation would pounce.

However the above kind of thoughts are just a synthesis and original research and for that reason they cannot be included in the wikipedia. All that could be included is the allegation as well as the paper by dreger. But we should provide enough detail that a reader could make their own judgement.

This is OT....Why is that a bad thing to defend yourself from?  :-) This could perhaps maybe be some reverse psychology on his part eh? Deny the sex then everyone will believe that you had it :-) I mean this whole discussion is predicated on, animated by the transphobic notion that it is bad for a man to want to have or have sex with a transsexual such as Juanita/Sylvia/Maria. Which is ironic becase it is transwomen who put it out there with that spin. Just IMHO. --Hfarmer (talk) 21:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, of course. My own opinion comes from knowing Bailey, knowing several of his students, and watching many, many attempts by his detractors to revise history. The truth never needs the kind of selective quoting and decontextualizing that that crew produces. That the accusations were entirely fabricated is, by far, the most logical conclusion to me.

The next time I'm in Chicago, I'd enjoy introducing you and Bailey. He was a math undergrad, and I think you two would quickly come to like, or at least respect, each other.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 22:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Dr Cantor, he and I have already met. In the last year I have peeped him on the streets of the north side neighborhood were he lives. Not to far from the Howard Brown Health Center, where I met him, many years ago. If he remembers me at all it would likely have to be how I derided psychology and psychologist right to his face. Compared it's scientificness unfavorably with that of physics. (I was only going to community college back then yet I was already full of physics chauvinism. I was a real asshole.) Last but not least a certain happening in a support group that I would drop in on at the HBHC which he or a student would sometimes observe... Basically I made one smart remark too many to an older TS...gave her some unsolicited advice...they got verbally physically threatening and he intervened. According to him such was not uncommon. For the older people at such groups to gang up on and chase away the younger. That was back about early-mid 2000. That person, if it wasn't him i'd be surprised. I have no proof to offer other than the circumstance that I live in chicago, and can prove that I was under the care of the Howard Brown Health Center back in those dark ages (T was not all together with LGB and TS's were not part of their mission statement. My how things have changed for the better.)

But I would still like to meet you just to meet you.  :-) (Jokestress too for that matter just so I could put to rest any idea that I am a "internet faker" of some kind.) email me hfarme2@uic.edu and CC gravitygirl62@yahoo.com to be sure I get it. We'll have lunch.  :-) --Hfarmer (talk) 22:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Evidence

"You can say it as many times as you like, but it is still untrue. Testimony is evidence of other observations; it is never evidence of itself. If that were true, we would need no detectives. Testimony can serve as the allegation or as evidence that supports the allegation, not both."

Perhaps the problem here is that you are thinking of a scientific description of evidence, when it is being used in a legal context. According to any dictionary, testimony is evidence obtained from a witness who makes a declaration statement of fact. Juanita testified to Northwestern's investigating committee about the sexual encounter with Bailey, which is part of the record of the investigation. Her testimony was evidence of the sexual encounter, and cases are often tried based on testimony alone. At any rate, we can mention the McCain piece or others in terms of her statements. Jokestress (talk) 22:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Although I am a scientist, I do work in a law and mental health program; the problem may be that you are using lay sources such as dictionaries. In law, an allegation is an assertion made without proof. Evidence is that which is used to support the allegation, including testimony. Allegations are not proof of themselves. All of the legal definitions are available here on WP.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 23:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I see what Jokestress is getting at. Her testimony is evidence but not proof. In a legal context she would have to have been cross examined and corroborated ideally by an uninterested party or some physical evidence (a stained blue dress of sorts).

But Jokestress you want this evidence to be accepted as final proof. Based in part on knowing Juanita well. Practically everyone else is at a disadvantage there. That is why her evidence cannot be proof by itself. Understand?--Hfarmer (talk) 23:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I would not be surprised if Jokestress has understood the truth all along. It would be consistent with her prior edits that she wants to use the word "evidence," not because it is accurate, but because "evidence" gives her better optics than the word "allegations."

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 23:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You initially claimed "there is no evidence that Bailey did" have a sexual encounter with Juanita. I countered, yes there is - Juanita's statements are evidence. I was correcting your original misuse of the word "evidence," a term you introduced into the discussion (not me). I hope we can agree now there is evidence supplied to Northwestern about this sexual encounter. Since they never released their findings, we can't say what they thought about its veracity. At any rate, the way to discuss this evidence or not is a discussion we can continue on the J. Michael Bailey page. I just wanted to clarify your misunderstanding. Jokestress (talk) 23:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It is entirely correct that there is no evidence that Bailey had a sexual encounter with Juanita. All that exists is the allegation; evidence would be that which supported the allegation...and there isn't any. Juanita's statements would be evidence rather than allegation if the allegation preceded her statements, which is not the case, the testimony was the allegation. (And no, someone making allegations on Juanita's behalf does not make allegations precede the testimony.)
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 00:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This article describes paraphelia as a almost exclusively male phenomena. In this, paraphelia includes fetishism and describes fetishism as the use of inanimate objects for sexual stimulation. Does the use of a vibrator not fall under this category and subsequently change this exclusivity from "almost exclusively" to "primarily" or something less akin to "all"? It doesn't require primary literature to see that many females use vibrators with comparable frequency. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seraphi (talk • contribs) 18:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Paraphilias (specifically, the fetishes) don't include merely using some inanimate object; they regard actual sexual attraction to the object. Although there are, of course, women who report stronger orgasms with vibrators than with partners, these women do not report being more sexually attracted to vibrators. Men with fetishes, however, report how sexy the actual thing is...its texture, color, etc. I hope that's a help.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 20:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment:

... and now you begin to 'understand' (expose, actually) why the concept of the 'paraphilia' is a ridiculous fabrication of social control and nothing more ... which (worryingly) you draw upon. When a female thinks about a vibrator, which, in the past, has provided her with her most intense orgasm, she may show all the physiological and emotional responses of being 'sexually-attracted'. That is all 'sexual attraction' is. Anything else is not 'sexual attraction', but a related, social response. I hope that's a help.

Yours,

Nigel.

(PS For the record, minors are not inanimate objects, why is there such a thing as paedophilia?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk • contribs) 16:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• You are mistaken to interpret my comments as support for yours. I contest the current DSM definition, not the constructs themselves.
• You are mistaken also to say what I am coming to understand: I have long understood the position expressed by you (and others before you)—I merely disagree with it.
• Your comment regarding women's reactions is empirically unsupported; that is, once you need to start saying "may," you start hypothesizing about evidence that does not (yet) exist. The evidence that does exist suggests that women do not (by physiological reaction) discriminate between erotic stimuli representing males or females (despite what sexual orientation they report identifying as). Thus, there is no reason to hypothesize that women who enjoy vibrators would respond to them in the same way that paraphilic men respond to their stimuli of interest.
• I wrote nothing to suggest that minors are inanimate. Fetishes refer to inanimate objects; paraphilias are a broader category that includes the fetishes. My definitions of paraphilia and of fetish are made more explicit in my chapter on the topic in the upcoming edition of the Oxford Textbook of Psychopathology.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 17:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment:

"in my chapter on the topic in the upcoming edition of the Oxford Textbook of Psychopathology"

Not much more to say, is there? "I contest the current DSM definition" and yet you are going to define them in a forthcoming weighty tome ... are you are going to create some more of your own definitions, such as the picture-observing paedophile?

I am well aware of the definitions and the realties, thank you, and was contemplating them when you were still working out what The Milgram Experiment may mean.

Look for 'words/phrases like this' and smilies - they are your friend :)

I used the word 'may', not in caution, just that I cannot justify 100%. In the scenario I provided, 'all' the women will be 'creaming their jeans' in anticipation. That is what will drive them to use the vibrator, once more. If they do not 'cream' they will not use the vibrator, as they are not 'sexually-attracted' to it/the outcome. Did I mention anyone else?

But heh, it does not harm to complicate the issue, yes?

Until you have to explain, why the ship does not fall off the end of the World ;)

Yours,

Nigel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk • contribs) 17:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Incivility

The style of interaction to which you are accustomed is not appropriate here. I once again ask that you stop engaging in passive-aggressive sniping, insults, etc. Let's focus on content and avoid the personal attacks, please. Jokestress (talk) 18:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It is possible that I am incivil, and it is possible that you are using such an accusation merely as an excuse not to have to answer my pointing out of your many factual errors. No one has ever accused me of incivility other than you, suggesting the latter is the correct interpretation.

It is possible that I am accustomed to a specific style of interation, and it is possible that your are merely using that as an excuse not to have to present evidence of your many baseless accusations. Short of a Vulcan mind-meld, there is no way for you to know what I am accustomed to, again suggesting the latter interpretation.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 18:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I see you are ignoring my request. Misplaced Pages is a community. People disagree, but they do so with a sense of community and a sense of respect. I feel you have made a number of helpful contributions here. You are interacting here as if you can "win" something, though. This is collaboration, not competition. This is not academia or psychology. This is a place where people work together to create a useful summary of human knowledge. From here out, I am going to ignore any responses by you that are violations of WP:CIVIL. If you wish to interact with me, it needs to come from a place of respect. Otherwise, you do not belong here. If you want to have a little off-wiki slapfight with me, go for it, but don't import it here. The project is not improved through that kind of interaction. Jokestress (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Signature on new line

I notice in your posts that there is always a line break and then your name. Would it be possible to fix that to be like everyone else's sig where it appears directly afterwards? Currently, when you do indented replies, your signature on the new line does not indent so it breaks up the appearance of the discussion and is confusing. Tyciol (talk) 19:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

When I sign comments, I try always to indent my signature to match the indentation of the comment (such as my signature below this). It is certainly possible that I miss one now and then. I apologize if that caused confusion. If you let me know where I did that, I'll correct it.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 20:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is a new example. Dicklyon (talk) 05:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that one is that WP format does not position its bullet lists the same as it positions its indents. Using one indent pushes the text farther than does using one bullet-list level. So, when using bullet lists, I indent my sig one level less than the level of the list.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 14:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

U.S. Code titles

Please, please tell me you're joking. You want to delete the article on Title 15 of the United States Code? What possible good can come of such an action? And what motivation could you possibly have for doing it? --Eastlaw (talk) 05:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised by your question, but my motivation is the obvious one: I ran across something that violated WP policy (NOTLINK). The bulk of the comments (thus far) do not indicate that my perception of the rule violation was incorrect so much as they suggest that the article should be an exception. That is certainly a fair enough response (it would be quite odd to claim the U.S. Federal law itself is an unimportant topic), but the responses do suggest that the NOTLINK should be modified/clarified.

You were correct to point out that Title 15 is merely one of many similar pages. The WP pages on deletions (which I re-read before nominating the article) recommended that, for groups of pages, one page be nominated first while holding off on the others until the consensus was achieved on the first. In retrospect, it would have probably been more logical for me to have used Title 1.

Did this answer your question?
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 14:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

So why not try to improve the page instead of deleting it? Or are you really on a crusade to disrupt Misplaced Pages? --Eastlaw (talk) 02:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I am not on a crusade to disrupt Misplaced Pages. I am not sure whether you mean your question rhetorically, but to answer it: There was no indication (current or past) that there was ever any intention for the Title 15 to be more than what it was, a list of links. No one editing it (or its sister pages) ever added any information beyond the list of links. It contained no source other than the link to the government page that it is identical to. What I took from all that was the conclusion that no one ever tried to help make the page achieve something bigger is because the page looked to everyone to have already achieved its intended purpose...of being what it was.

To me, that made the Title 15 page (and family) different from pages that consist only of links and are in need of improvement rather than deletion. For example, I have been editing for the past few weeks list of paraphilias, which was in a state analogous to the descriptions of the Title 15 page (important, but not quite a list, etc.). It, however, looked (to me) to represent an attempt to assemble a variety of sources...but was lacking most of the actual sources. So, in that case, I'm doing the old-fashioned work of filling in the sources.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 13:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

LeVay article

James, there's a somewhat unpleasant dispute about the LeVay article that I'd appreciate it if you would comment on. See the talk page. C0h3n is insisting on removing a comment by LeVay on the ostensible grounds that it's not about LeVay's own research, but he is adding other material that also isn't about LeVay's own research. The real issue seems to be that he doesn't like that comment because it appears to cast doubt on an exclusively biological theory of sexual orientation. I know that you lean toward biological explanations yourself, but you've generally been fair and tried to take a balanced approach, so I'm hoping your comments can be helpful here. Skoojal (talk) 08:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

INAH3

I'm sorry to bother you with this stuff, but there's an edit war on the INAH3 article. Again, I'd appreciate your comments. Skoojal (talk) 02:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Might interest you

Were you aware of Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine/Reliable sources? The current discussion (which I don't actually intend to inflict on you, or at least which I don't intend to accept blame for, if it raises your blood pressure and gives you a headache) revolves around an editor's choice of a history department's definition of "primary" and "secondary" sources (which we use to mean what's properly known as the primary and secondary literature; the true primary source is the lab journal, not the paper that you write using the lab journal's data), despite the fact that a pharmacologist ought to know better. The various demands for counter-sources made me wish for a good research librarian -- which of course made me think of "Marion the Librarian".

Anyway, if you weren't aware of MEDRS, it seemed like the sort of thing that you might want to look over and perhaps comment on; comments on the guideline in general are being collected in the RfC section on its talk page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. DGG had alerted me previously to the difference between how science and other fields use primary/secondary sources. I'll take a look. (For the record though, I'm not an actual librarian. I used that name since many of my edits were about added sources from medical libraries that most people didn't have easy access to.)
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 21:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Conversion Therapy category Dispute

James, having recently responded to your request at Talk:List of paraphilias for input, I'd like to ask for your input regarding a dispute over the recently-created Conversion therapy category, which in my view is being inappropriately added to several articles. The relevant disputes are here , here , and here . Skoojal (talk) 01:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

No need to trade. I'm happy to contribute just for the general improvement of sexuality articles. I'll have a look.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 01:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you; that's greatly appreciated. Skoojal (talk) 01:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits to Etiology of transsexualism

Hi, I'm going to be blunt here - your recent edits to Etiology of transsexualism are a complete mess. You've removed huge amounts of properly cited information, and very interestingly removed a lot of criticism of the methods of the clinic you work at. Right now I'm very busy with real life, but just to let you know, I do intend to go through your edits to clean them up - but to be fair, I will assume that some of your information removal may be due to concerns about the cited sources, so I will be double checking the references you have removed before I put them (and the relevant information) back in. Personally, I do not feel that your edits on this subject tend to stay NPOV, so I would urge that you use caution and restraint in future, especially when possible conflicts of interest around your employers exist. Xmoogle (talk) 12:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that many separate minor edits in a small amount of time is usually frowned upon in Misplaced Pages, as it makes maintenance of articles rather a nightmare. If you'd made 2 or 3 edits, that would have been fine, but 16 edits to the same page within 20 minutes is seriously excessive. I'm tempted to revert the whole lot purely to make the history less of a headache to look through, to be honest, however that action could easily be misinterpreted so I shall attempt to trudge through them to clean them up. On the principle of assuming good faith, I'll assume that you weren't aware of the editing problems that this creates. Xmoogle (talk) 16:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• I did not remove any information at all. I removed unsourced claims only, and indicated such in the edit summaries.
• Because I did not removed any cited sources, I don't know what sources it is you are saying you will double-check. Nonetheless, all double-checking of sources by any editor will improve the page.
• I am happy to discuss the NPOV of any of my edits, but I can do that only if you are more specific about what it is you contest.
• You may recommend caution and restraint all you like, but your urging does not alter WP:BOLD.
• I chose to enter my edits individually instead of holus bolus so that any interested editor could discuss the changes independently of each other. When many edits are made at once, my experience with sexology topics suggests that they >all< become reverted when someone contests only one of the changes.

— James Cantor (talk) 17:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Ephebophilia#Editor placing neutral point of view tag on article

Your comments on this matter would be much appreciated. Flyer22 (talk) 22:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

NOTICE: The question has been posted on the RS noticeboard.

Hello. I have decided that at long last we have a good enough question to ask the notice board and posted it. here The question has been negotiated and all parties have had input. It is possible to comment further on the notice board so any other questions or concerns can be raised there. I think that the question that I posted which is evolved from drafts of mine, Jokestress's and James_Cantor's is a good framing for the issue and gives all the information that the uninterested RS editors will need to make a determination.

I took this action because we could end up negotiating the content of this question and have about as much success as we have had with the article itself. Someone had to say enough. So I say enough already. I hope that we can resolve this question and move on to more productive editing of the article in the near future. --Hfarmer (talk) 00:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Homosexual Transsexual Good Article Review

Homosexual transsexual has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Articles are typically reviewed for one week. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here.

Hello I have requested a good aricle status review on this article. I have done this because the article needed a big rewrite and reorganizeation in order to make the article more acessible to the uninitiated. From a Featured article cadidacy review I was informed that the articles prose was too dense and that it may not be comprehensive enough. The changes were enough in my mind to warrant reassment of the articles good article status. As a courtesy as a big contributor I am notifying you of this.--Hfarmer (talk) 13:16, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

What science can say about Pedophilia

Hi, if you have time I would appreciate if you could give your opinion on the discussion here: The article should be divorced from the criminal behavior material. My claim is that current science and the Misplaced Pages article cannot and should not be used to make a general description of pedophilia since the science is mostly based on clinical samples. Today I believe that the articles tries to do this, or atleast comes of with that impression on the reader. Considering your familiarity with the professional literature, your opinion would be helpful. Glenn Stokowski (talk) 10:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

RS Notice board:Commentaries on a Peer reviewed Article.....Again

Hello,

You are being informed of this topic on the reliable sources notice board because you, commented on the question the last time, or are editor of the article The Man Who Would Be Queen, or you edited a related article. This is a complex topic and hopefully you will remember what this was all about and be able to comment insightfully and help us reach a consensus. I have asked that the comments found in the archive of the original discussion be taken into account this time since I am sure those other editors will return at some point. It is my hope that these can be comprehensively settled this time. To see why This is being asked again check out Talk:The Man Who Would Be Queen.

This link is to the new request for comment on the reliable sources notice board. (You may have to scroll down to see it)

Please please don't confuse up this discussion with things about other tangentially related discussions. Please please focus on just the question of sources. (Don't take anything in this message personally as it is being sent to everyone involved.)

Thankyou for your help. --Hfarmer (talk) 12:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Pedophilia

Hi - I noticed your intelligent and perceptive comments on the talk:Pedophilia page. I have some questions about this. My background is in philosophy which has little directly to do with pedophilia. But philosophers do have an interest in ethical issues, and also in logical and definitional issues, which is where my question lies. Question (1) is 'pedophilia' a term for a practice, or not? If pedophilia is, as the article appears to claim, simply a feeling or disposition or orientation, then this can preclude any practice or exercise of those feelings or dispositions. So we are missing a useful term here. There is an older term 'pederasty' which does explicitly signify the practice, but that is not quite the same, for apparently it signifies adult-adolescent sexual practice. Second question (2) do people in your field distinguish feelings or dispositions towards pedophilic practice from an intention to practice, that happens to be unrealised? I think these are different. I gave up smoking about 20 years ago. Occasionally I get feelings or urges to smoke, which I (nearly always) resist. So I have the relevant feelings or urges, perhaps even the disposition to smoke. But I wouldn't say I ever wanted to smoke. And certainly not that I ever had the intention to smoke. There is presumably a corresponding distinction in the case of pedophilia and it is an important one. I wouldn't blame anyone for having pedophilic feelings or urges, so long as they didn't have the intention of acting on them. On the other hand, I would blame anyone for having an intention to do so, which happened to be frustrated for the usual reasons (parents, police, guardians and so on).

Those are my questions. I think there is an area missing from the article, namely ethics. Ethics would be concerned with the sorts of issues I have mentioned, and others such as abuse of the duty of care and so on. I wonder if there is any literature on the subject? Peter Damian (talk) 09:49, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words. I had actually been most of my way through an MA in philosophy before I switched to psychology.

The term pedophilia has been used somewhat differently in different contexts. The scientists who conduct the front-line research on the phenomenon (including me) use the term to refer specifically to the sexual interest/attraction to children. It's this definition that has produced the greatest amount of replicated/verifiable information, suggesting (at least, to me), that this is the best definition. Other folks, including law enforcement, the media, and other non-experts have sometimes used the term more broadly to include some behaviours or as a synonym for child molestation. There has never been, however, any consensus (or even much discussion) about exactly which behaviours should count or when.

I have not heard very much discussion, by any group, about intention. In discussions I have had with professional ethicists, behaviour has always been the focus. Unless a person has actually engaged in sexual contact with a prepubescent person, one can never be sure how to interpret the intention. One can imagine a pedophile intending to engage a child in some sexual behaviour, but deciding against it before actually doing so without any external intervention.

Your analogy to smoking has much going for it, but I would caution against over-thinking it: I suspect that it would lead one to think more about the definitions of "urge," "want," and "intend" than about the definition of pedophilia.

It would certainly be nice if society applied ethics to developing relevant public policy; however, much public policy instead follows from fear and anger.
— James Cantor (talk) 00:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory controversy

An article that you have been involved in editing, Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory controversy, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory controversy. Thank you. Hfarmer (talk) 17:46, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Ideas

James, just for my own knowledge, can you tell me what the actual ideas are about transsexuality? There's the Blanchard taxonomy, and there's "feminine essence", and is there anything else that is considered relevant/important/used by more than one lab? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC) who is watching this page for a few days, so you can reply here or on my talk page, as you prefer

Looked at one way (the current state of affairs), you are completely correct: The only two major ideas about the nature of transsexuality are Blanchard's model and the feminine essence theory. Ironically, despite that he believes it is incorrect, the only person who has actually written out the feminine essence theory is Blanchard. Although other folks use the idea, none has actually tried presenting a complete version of it.

Looked at the other way (historically), no one has ever really tried to explain transsexuality as an independent topic unto itself. Early sexologists were trying to understand all the variations of sexual orientation/identity with regard to how they related to each other. That is, they were trying to figure out what the relationships were among cross-dressing, homosexuality, transsexuality, and all their variants. Asking about transsexuality in the absence of any other sexual atypicality came about from transsexuals themselves; they were (naturally) interested in statements specifically about themselves.

Because early sexologists were asking about transsexuality in relation to all the other ways to be sexually atypical, there were many theories, each emphasizing this or that aspect as well as any apparent similarity with other sexual atypicalities. I guess I am saying that transsexual people have tended to be individual-focused, whereas scientists have tended to be phenomenon-focused.

Although transsexual activists tend to be familiar only with the portion of Blanchard's typology as it pertains to transsexuality (understandably, their main interest), his taxonomy also includes homosexuality and transvestism. After he proposed his taxonomy, all the other taxonomic theories have essentially fallen by the wayside. None was able to simultaneously explain the features of all the sexual atypicalities nearly as well as his.

So, I guess I am saying that there are, currently, two major theories about the nature of transsexuality, but the scientific theories are not actually about transsexuality so much as they are broader ideas that >include< transsexuality; but, if one looks up older books that never made it onto the Internet, you will also find many now-obsolete taxonomies.

Is that a help?

— James Cantor (talk) 22:32, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Enormously, thanks! Moser claims that he has his own idea, but it doesn't appear to be published, and that's the only other hint of other ideas that I've found (in my admittedly brief search), and I've long suspected that our fellow editors' quiet refusal to name the "other, better, correct" ideas were simply because the "other, better, correct" ideas do not actually exist.

Do you think it would it be fun to write a new article, Feminine essence narrative? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That's a brilliant idea. I'll need a new set of flame-retardant clothes, I'm sure, but you are absolutely right. It's a piece glaringly missing from WP.
— James Cantor (talk) 23:12, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Asbestos won't save you this time. What a jerk! WhatamIdoing, do you think that if the trans women don't like the categories made up by Cantor's sexologist buds they're going to like what he and Dreger and Blanchard come up with in the way of another alternative to ridicule? Sure, let's let Dreger define the alternative, Blanchard "deconstruct" it, and Cantor write it up. What could be more fun? By the way, I have no idea whether "other, better, correct" ideas exist; that's no reason to make up "other, better, distorted" ones. Dicklyon (talk) 05:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Feminine essence theory of transsexuality

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Feminine essence theory of transsexuality, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process because of the following concern:

Absurd article, totally WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, made up by a colleague of the principle Blanchard to ridicule the transsexuals that they are embattled with with respect to autogynephilia and such. How can the predictions of a 2008 theory have been tested in a 1995 study? How can Dreger be taken seriously as having proposed a new theory of transsexuality? How can Blanchard have desconstructed a theory that nobody had proposed. I recommend that User:James Cantor be canned for his blatant WP:COI on this one.

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Misplaced Pages is not" and Misplaced Pages's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Dicklyon (talk) 05:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Feminine essence theory of transsexuality

I have nominated Feminine essence theory of transsexuality, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Feminine essence theory of transsexuality. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Dicklyon (talk) 05:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

January 2009

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