Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:11, 7 November 2008

Welcome!

Hello, LarRan, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I noticed your interest in aircraft-related articles. There is a group of editors here at Misplaced Pages who have come together to form WikiProject Aircraft in order to improve aircraft-related articles. You are invited to check us out and, if interested, join our team. Our project page has a lot of resources as well as article guidelines that you might find helpful.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!  AKRadecki 23:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Gripen crashes

Hi and thanks for your note, and for correcting the spelling of the test-pilot's name. To anser your questions, the name is important because it is interesting and encyclopedic (there might even be an article on him one day!), and the date headings were (in my opinion) unhelpful because the article is not (currently) so long as to require further headings. Best wishes, and thanks for all your good work. --John 22:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I posted this to the DYK page, but wanted to make sure you saw it ASAP so the article can be used. It seems to me that this should either have a general reference that discusses all of the incidents, or should have at least one in-line citation per incident, so users can research them. Most of them do, but there's a couple without one. Could you add citations so they all have one? Rigadoun (talk) 20:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can find. LarRan 21:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Category:User se

The ISO 639 code for the Swedish language is sv, not se. -- Prove It 13:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I recently discovered that when the templates and categories I had created had been deleted. LarRan 18:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

List of Gripen crashes

On 12 July, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article List of Gripen crashes, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--GeeJo ⁄_(c) • 10:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Smile!

WarthogDemon has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

-WarthogDemon 21:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Gripen Aircrafts in Crashes

The latest crash was a JAS39C as that was mentioned both by the air force news and various military forums, as well as that type recieved temporary restrictions afterwards.

The plane that crashed on Långholmen was a prototype aircraft nr 39102 ot JAS39-2 it was equipped like a standard delivery aircraft at the time but was a test aircraft shown in it's designation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkwand (talk • contribs) 02:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Category sorting

Please note that to get correct sorting on the English wikipedia, the sort key cannot have accented characters; only the character ranges a-z and A-Z sort correctly, with characters such as "ö" sorting after "z", instead of with/near "o". For example, {{DEFAULTSORT:Soderlund, Jezper}} is correct; {{DEFAULTSORT:Söderlund, Jezper}} causes the Jezper Söderlund article to list after Maria Szyszkowska in Category:Living people, instead of between Robin Söderling and Mats Söderlund, where it should be. See also Misplaced Pages:Categorization_of_people#Ordering_names_in_a_category, which says:

Punctuation, such as apostrophes and colons (but not hyphens) should be removed, and accented letters and ligatures should be replaced by their unaccented or separated counterparts.

Studerby 03:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

You're apparently try to apply a foreign collation order, probably a Scandinavian one; different languages collate (sort) differently. For example, Swedish and English collate (sort) the letter "Ö" differently; English puts it before Z and Swedish puts it after. As this is the English Misplaced Pages, we use English collation. As someone with degrees in Linguistics and Computer Science and who has worked off and on in internationalization of software, I'm deeply aware of the issues involved here and could go on at length about why Misplaced Pages's choice is correct, however there's no reason you should accept my opinion by itself. Fortunately, plenty of people have covered this topic before me, so I'll suggest some brief reading for you:

• Sorting it all out: An introduction to collation, microsoft.com note: an example of English versus Swedish collation
• MySql.com discussion with an example of Swedish versus English collation Note: MySql is a Swedish product
• Diacritic#Alphabetization_or_collation - note: Danish and Swedish collation orders conflict
• Alphabets_derived_from_the_Latin#Collating_sequences
• Computer Alphabetizing -note: points out that Italian and French have conflicting rules for sorting "é" and "è"

Finally, I'll point out that Misplaced Pages practices are based on consensus; that consensus is listed in Misplaced Pages:Categorization_of_people#Ordering_names_in_a_category, and is contrary to what you're doing. If you want to change Misplaced Pages practice on an issue as fundamental as sorting, I suggest you discuss the topic there before trying to change the way things are done. People have actually though long and hard about this before you and have arrived at the policies and guidelines we currently use. While those are subject to change and improvement, you might want to discuss those changes and see if you can develop a new consensus instead of working against the one we have. Studerby 14:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, Studerby. Being somewhat handicapped by not having English as my native language, I will not go on at any length making my points. Instead, I'll try to be brief.

1) Å, Ä and Ö are not accented letters, they are separate, individual, independent letters, whatever you'd like to call it, that once upon a time may have - I'm not sure, and it's not relevant - originated from A, A and O, respectively.

2) Not only are they sorted differently than A and O, they also behave differently in other ways. E.g.: A and O are both hard vowels, but only Å is a hard vowel, while Ä and Ö are soft vowels.

3) What you're saying about collating sequences does not seem to be correct. When I look at lists, the entries are presented in the correct alphabetical order, with Å, Ä and Ö placed (in that order) after Z.

4) I have not found any consensus on Å, Ä and Ö (unless you called them accented, which is wrong). If there is, please point it out to me.

Best regards. LarRan 14:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Your first point is true for Swedish, not for English; native English speakers view those letters as accented variants of a base letter, which is why Microsoft and MySql sort things differently when sorting for English versus sorting for Swedish. That's the point of the links in my earlier reply, there are some good examples there, including one authored by Swedes. Swedish sort order is appropriate on the Swedish Misplaced Pages; English sort order is used on the English one (mostly); the "en" at the beginning of the URL is for English. (Some people argue that nation-specific categories should be sort ordered according to that nation's language - I'm unconvinced but I don't generally argue about it - in fact I don't generally argue on Misplaced Pages at all, but you're busily undoing many hours of many peoples work, including mine).

I do agree that all the Wikipedias are international resources, my use of the word "foreign" was ill-chosen; I think "non-English" better expresses my intent.

By the way, the Misplaced Pages software appears to be sorting based on a UTF-8 encoding of the letters; that's a superset of ASCII encoding, and ASCII encoding encodes the Ö character as the number 153, well after the Z character. That's a very poor approach, it sorts A-Z in front of a-z; every natural language intersorts, for example English sorts AaBbCc... (or aAbBcC or rarely even no sub-ordering between a and A - there's no widely accepted standard). Just because you get the sort order you like isn't evidence that what you're doing is correct. As a side issue, in UTF-8, there are actually multiple different encodings of a-z and A-Z, buts it's incredibly unnatural to enter the other encodings through a web interface. However, if someone were to do so, they could easily have an "A" that sorts after "Z", it would not display correctly on the many computers that don't have extended character sets though. Studerby 15:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, Studerby, point taken. I was vaguely aware that the fact that the articles were being presented in a seemlingly correct order did not constitute the ultimate proof. I will modify my updates. I hope - and also doubt - that I haven't undone hours of work, since I don't have put in that many hours myself. I've been adding the defaultsort template to many articles about Swedes - one has to start somewhere - that missed it, and most of them did not contain Å, Ä or Ö. LarRan 16:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, and please keep up the good work. This conversation has been helpful for me as well; I've realized the guidelines in Misplaced Pages:Categorization_of_people#Ordering_names_in_a_category aren't very well expressed - they assume a native speaker's understanding of what is or isn't a basic character, which is culturally dependent. I knew that professionally, but wasn't applying that knowledge to the Misplaced Pages world; it's a classic "blind spot". The guideline obviosuly needs some editing or rewriting to be clearer.

Also, sorry about the "hours" remark; I've been extremely short of sleep lately, and irrationally irritable. I think that slipped into my phrasing a little too much. Studerby 20:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem. On the contrary: my impression was that you expressed your opinions in a very diplomatic way, which I guess is quite helpful in defusing 'disputes' of this kind. Maybe you've done this before? LarRan 17:08, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Wrongful Warning

Hey, sorry about the warning, I'm using VandalProof, which involves clicking on "rollback - removal" button, and the edit is reverted and a warning is automatically posted. It seems that some coding has gone wrong somewhere! It was an IP address who blanked the page, not you, and I am at a loss as to why the automatic warning was directed at you! Thanks for contacting me in such a calm, polite tone, I'm sure that there are other users who have been less acommodating! I've removed the warning, and my deepest apologies! -Toon 12:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

V-22 accident page

I've just split off the Accidents and incidents involving the V-22 Osprey page from the V-22 Osprey article. I'm intending to follow the pattern of the Accidents and incidents involving the JAS 39 Gripen page as far as layout goes. Unfortunately, my health is acting up today, so I can't put in much time on it right now. YOu did a good job shepherding the Gripen crash page, so I thought I'd give you a chance to help out on a similar page. Both aircraft have drawn criticisms for similar reasons, except more people have died in V-22s because it carries passengers. Thanks for whatever you can do. - BillCJ 19:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. I'm afraid it will be purely layout changes, as I'm not in the position to perform any research. Get well soon. LarRan 13:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Saab 37 Viggen naming

There is an ongoing discussion about the naming of the Talk:Saab_37_Viggen and whether the Vigg(swedish)=duck=canard(french) was official or coincidental. Do you have access to any published info about this? I do remember reading about it in a book in Swedish about the Viggen, but I don't have it here in the US. T96 grh 03:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find any info about this. LarRan 08:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Answer

Oh, i'm so sorry! I appologize! I know how sensitive it is when you add things about sexuality regarding historical royalty! You are perfectly correct that i should have sourced it. The truth is, that i read so much about these things that i do not not always remember from exactly which book i got this and that. Charles XIII of Sweden is described as having a "harem of mistresses" in most book iv'e read. Some of them which mentioned this are; "Den gustavianska tiden" by Signum förlag, and "Gustavianskt" by Ingvar Andersson; the later book also sourced his relationship with Charlotte Eckerman. His relationship with Marie Marguerite Morel, later married Dulondel, member of the French theatre troup of 1753-1771, is mentioned in "Frihetstiden" by Signum förlag. Exactly which book i read about his relationship with Mariana Koskull, i cant remember right now (though i can find out about it); i do remember, that when she at one point flirted with the future Oscar I, a nobleman replyed: "For God's sake, miss, spare the third generation!" Once again; i know how sensitive these things are, and i appologise for adding this information! I they are deleted, i won't defend them, as i hate to fight and argue with people. I hope this was of some help to you though. My best wishes! --85.226.235.206 (talk) 11:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

RE:Articles for deletion

Content is moved to Talk:Denmark national football team season 2007 kalaha 15:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Swedish language

I noticed that you removed the wikilinks from several of the dates in the Swedish language article. According to WP:OVERLINK#Dates and WP:DATE#Autoformatting and linking, full dates should always be linked. This has also been discussed in the talk page. So it would be helpful if you could change the dates back. –panda 15:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding my unlinking of some dates in the Swedish language article: Dates referring to when links were retrieved, et cetera, are not significant in relation to the article. There is no meaning whatsoever in linking Swedish language to a certain date, just because a reference was retrieved that date. LarRan 18:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

(This was my reply to panda on his talk page. I have copied it here for the sake of clarity in the discussion. I have increased the indentation of the following replies accordingly. LarRan 21:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC))

The purpose of the linking is not necessarily for looking up a date was retrieved -- it is for date preference formatting. See the above links for details. (BTW, you can reply here as I'm watching your talk page.) –panda 18:13, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Contrary to what you're saying, it is not recommended to link all full dates. In fact, the very first sentence of WP:OVERLINK page says "Only make links that are relevant to the context." Maybe you should read the recommendations yourself.

I agree that the language is confusing. Please also take a look at Template talk:Cite web#Why is the date wikilinked? and Talk:Swedish language#Date reversion. –panda 18:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

It's an interesting feature (to have the dates displayed according to your preferences), but I find that argument weak. The original - and main - purpose of linking is to create a connection between articles, and connections have to be meaningful. There seem to be various opinions on this, though. LarRan 19:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Yep, Panda's assertion that they should be linked is not entirely uncontroversial. He is correct that the style guidelines suggest it though. At least two other editors (myself included) disagree. I personally think it is a deficiency in the software behind Misplaced Pages that should be fixed. henrik•talk 00:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I would encourage you to join the conversation in Talk:Swedish language#Date reversion if you plan on removing date links. –panda 16:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: Ron Smith link

I really wasn't sure what to do when I read your note, so I did this, which I hope takes care of it! Feel free to add to it. Noroton (talk) 21:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Still working on this one. Noroton (talk) 21:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I was a little perplexed about whether they meet notability standards. I'm pretty sure the American does, hoping the Canadian does. I think starting his own publishing house helps. Noroton (talk) 21:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

An article that you have been involved in editing, Assassination of Benazir Bhutto, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Assassination of Benazir Bhutto. Thank you. --BJBot (talk) 22:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Diacritics

Diacritics are often a big war on Misplaced Pages as you have just seen. The biggest reason why people don't want them on pages is because this is an English wikipedia and they are not used in English. Personally I would like to see them on all pages but because of the constant reverting that happens on all these pages a solution was devised at WP:HOCKEY where the NHL related pages don't have them since the NHL does not recognize them, ie they are not on jerseys or in any official publication of the NHL. However, for things such as the Olympics or World Championships and their own personal pages we leave them on. This is how we compromise so that they are not constantly being changed on wikipedia. If you wish to try and change this concensus you are welcome to go discuss it at WP:HOCKEY however, it took us years to get to this compromise so its not likely to change any time soon. -Djsasso (talk) 16:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Too bad you didn't say this before. Just reverting people's changes without further comment or explanation is outright rude, and it infuriates people - and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that. So I did it to you, and now you know how it feels. Now you go ahead and change it back. But look carefully, so you don't undo the other changes I did in the same edit(s)! LarRan (talk) 17:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I don't see how what NHL does or doesn't recognize has anything to do with wikipedia. NHL doesn't own wikipedia. But now that there is a consensus in place ... LarRan (talk) 18:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Well the idea is that it is about NHL information, therefore to be as accurate as possible we fillow the standard they use. That being said the vast majority of users wanted to remove them from all hockey articles. In fact most people in wikipedia want to remove them from all articles on anything because as said they are not used in English. I and a couple others had to fight pretty hard just to get them on international articles and player articles. -Djsasso (talk) 01:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Like Djsasso says, respect the compromise. If not for yourself, then for the sanity of the rest of us. GoodDay (talk) 03:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll respect it, but I just didn't know about it. And I think Djsasso made a very clumsy intervention, not worthy an administrator, reverting my edits without further comment or explanation. LarRan (talk) 13:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem. The Diacritics dispute had lasted for about a couple of years (off & on) and it frayed alot of nerves. Personally, I prefer diacritics being banned from English Misplaced Pages, but that's not gonna happen; Oh well. Anyways, the non-NHL articles are open to diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 19:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

For my part, I'm having a problem understanding that point of view. Håkan Loob's name is just that - not Hakan Loob - whether it's the English Misplaced Pages or any other. Anything else is just less accurate, and if one can be accurate, one should be - at least in my book. I have a background of 28 years+ in the IT business, and we have a saying that goes like this: "Every piece of information is less accurate than its predecessor", meaning that everytime information is processed (or derived), there is a potential of an error. That's why I don't like inaccuracies: they will multiply.

If those letters weren't available, then (of course) it would be understandable, and not anything for anybody to do about it. But now that all letters really are there (in wikipedia), I cannot for my life see why we shouldn't be accurate. It's a matter of principle, and not of those letters' non-existance in the English alphabet. An analogy: the Swedish alphabet doesn't have all variants of letters that especially the Slavic languages have. That doesn't stop me from accepting Zlatan Ibrahimović as the correct spelling of his name. (A Swede of Bosnian-Croat descent, and currently one of the world's best football players, in case you didn't know.) He also has that spelling on his team jersey, in Inter as well as the Swedish National team.

To prove myself right (in principle), how would you store the article on the Häagen-Dazs icecream (if you banned all diacritics)? It's a position that is clearly not defendable.

Now that there is a consensus (over North American ice hockey pages), I don't think it's worth the fight, and I'll respect it, even though I feel slightly nautious everytime I see "Hakan Loob" (or "Mats Naslund").

By the way, Håkan is pronounced "Haw-cunn". I guess you don't pronounce Hakan like that. LarRan (talk) 23:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah we still pronounce it that way. None of the pronunciation seems to change in English when we remove the diacritics, atleast in general usage by the public, gramatically it might but everyone still pronounces it Haw-cunn. -Djsasso (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

My Quote page

Hi LarRan.

No, I can't honestly say I mind the tweaking you've done.

However:

• without wanting to seem ungrateful, I guess my basic position is that I regard my main user page and all its sub-pages as generally "hands off" as far as other editors goes. I extend the same policy to other users. If you want to bring something to my attention, you're most welcome to use my talk page. I feel I have to have such a policy because if I allow ad-hoc exceptions, no matter how well intentioned they may be, it becomes open slather; and
• I am very intrigued (and a little flattered) as to why an editor until now unknown to me has enough interest in my (essentially private) list of quotes to bother doing what you did. What led you to this page? Cheers. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Jack.

I don't like redirects (from misspellings or other), and was 'tweaking' a number of other pages, using the 'What links here'-function, and one of the pages listed was your page.

I'm aware that one shouldn't normally edit other users' 'home pages', and I normally don't (I may have done it when I was a novice to Misplaced Pages, I don't remember). But I thought this was 'permissible'.

How did you discover it? Did you get the same message as the one you get when somebody has edited your talkpage? If you didn't, you must have good eyes, 'cause the changes were just barely detectable to the naked eye. Btw, did you notice that one red-link (Snepscheut) was resolved by my edit?

Regards, LarRan (talk) 00:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC).

Hi, LarRan. Sorry about the belated reply. I noticed it when I was checking the page History for something else, and saw your username there. Cheers. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

List of rangers players

sorry my mistake. i assumed it was vandalism y8c (talk) 22:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Gripen Cost

I have responded on my talk page. Can any responses go there please. Thank You Pratj (talk) 20:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Flygande Veteraner

I've added Image:Douglas DC-3, SE-CFP.jpg to the Douglas DC-3 page. We don't appear to have an article on the Flygande Veteraner in en.wiki, but the sv:Flygande Veteraner page looks interesting (I don't read Swedish). Is this something that would be worth finding a person to translate it into English? - BillCJ (talk) 19:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I could translate it into an article if you wish. Or do you first want a short summary, to see if it deserves to have an article in en.wiki? Here it is then: It's about a non-profit organization (or association), whose aim is to preserve, and keep in flying condition, the veteran aircraft Daisy. It also tells a little about the history of the aircraft and the association, and present-day activities. LarRan (talk) 18:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

SAAB vs. Saab

Point taken... and on the Saab SFO product page they write it as Saab, not SAAB. So let's assume SHK is wrong or at least that Saab is making a mistake but that we go along with making the same mistake since it is established. --J-Star (talk) 12:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the report is available in English. I'm a swede meself so it's read in Swedish and summarized in Wnglish. --J-Star (talk) 23:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Gripen crashes

The article was completely unsourced. It is a poor practice to add sensisitive information like aircraft crashes without using proper sources and violation of WP:V. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

See WP:V. "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." I just did this. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Look at the article September 11, 2001 attacks. Everyone knows the attack was perpetrated by 19 hijackers. But the fact is properly sourced at the article. WP:V is very much subjective. If you think that you will still work on the article, will add sources, then add "underconstruction" template so that other editors can understand that the article is still not finished. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Article can be changed if there are new information. But WP:V is must. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not right to add material without proper soure and removal of sensitive unsourced information is appropriate instead of fact tagging. Even Jimmy Wales said that instead of using fact tags, remove unsourced material.

Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 16:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Which is why I said you to use a "underconstruction" template when you think the article does no meet WP:V and you will add sources later. By that template, other editors will understand that the article is still under major rework. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 16:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

You are simply repeating your argument. I say if you are a responsible editor, then you need to follow WP:V, and if you think the material should not be challenged, then use an "underconstruction" template. Thanks. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem here is that you are not supporting removal of unsourced material, nor you are willing to use "underconstruction" template. While I am saying that unsourced material should be removed per WP:V, if not, then use an "underconstruction" template for that period of time unless you can provide sources for the information. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Consensus does not give you the freedom to avoid WP:V. The question here is WP:V. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

March 2008

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to make constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to Portal:India/Quiz/Archive6, did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Σαι ( Talk) 10:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I have not made any unconstructive edits to the article you mentioned. Please check more carefully who made them, before you post any messages. LarRan (talk) 13:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I am very sorry. I was trying to warn User talk:75.165.46.208 and warned you instead. I'm very very sorry. Σαι ( Talk) 09:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

SAAF Gripen

Er, oops. Sorry about that edit on the Gripen article. I mixed up my news stories; the first SAAF Gripen will be officially delivered to the SAAF sometime this month, but it hasn't happened yet. So you were right. I'll update the article once the actual hand-over occurs. — Impi (talk) 15:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Thai Gripens

Good thing that you mailed and asked about the Thai Gripens. Yes, the information on various homepages are unclear about the deal, it will be nice to get some real answers on this question. But the info I have found points towards that it will be brand new ones for Thailand. The fact that it is FMV who is selling the Gripens to Thailand is just because the Thai's wanted i government to government deal, FMV buys the planes from SAAB and then selling them to Thailand,I've read that somewhere but I unfortunately can't remember where. I apologize if I sounded rude, it wasn't intended.

Good luck in your search for the facts! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henke87 (talk • contribs) 12:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Image captions

See WP:MOS#Captions, image captions should only end a full stop if they include at least one full sentence. Please also make sure that your edit summary reflects what you've actually changed in an article - your most recent edit to Opera stated you had edited to avoid a redirect, but you had actually added full stops to captions. Though I see on second look you had changed the spacing in W. H. Auden as well. David Underdown (talk) 12:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes I did manage to spot your other chagnes as well in the end - but remeber that changes of spacing don't show up particualrly well in diffs. If you disagree with the style guide, discuss it on the relevant talkpage. David Underdown (talk) 13:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Eastwood

Hi, thanks very much for the work you did tidying up links etc. in Eastwood, Nottinghamshire. I have duly noted the errors I made - it's my first major contribution, and a total rewrite of the older article. I'm still learning about wiki syntax.

Thanks again.

--  Chzz  ►  15:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. Impressive first article, I must say. LarRan (talk) 11:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Douglas Murray

Hi,

I made a comment on the discussion page of hockeyplayer Douglas Murray regarding your text on the hit against Alexey Morozov. I haven't made any changes to the actual article, but you're welcome to say what you think on the issue.

Spaces in initials

I have looked through the Manual of Style and not found any rule about this. As far as "consensus", that seems only anecdotal on your part. If you Google this issue in manuals of style, you will find that different ones come down on different sides. I think literary tradition is on the side of no space. As far as "childish", it is childish to make these changes without clear motivation. Thank your for your input though.

Help

{{helpme}}

Where can I find guidelines on whether to write "H.G. Wells" or "H. G. Wells"? There seems to be a consensus or guidline somewhere on similar article names (with initials), but I can't find it. LarRan (talk) 21:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I would recommend the unspaced version, it really makes very little difference...... Dendodge .. Talk 21:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Howcome there is a consensus on article names, then? All articles are named T. S. Eliot, D. H. Lawrence, W. H. Auden, etc. LarRan (talk) 17:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

why don't you just put it the way the other articles are written?If they are written like that then it only makes sense to have H.G Wells the same way. Mr. GreenUserboxes 17:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Please answer the question. If you don't know the answer, then don't place a response here. If you know that there are no such guidelines, that is a valid response, of course. LarRan (talk) 08:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• Hi, please refer to this article for more information. See below. Bjelleklang - talk Bug Me 09:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I just had a good hunt through procedural guides, and was unable to find a specific mention of the spacing. The closest I've found was in WP:NCP - however, it doesn't explicitly state that spaces should be used. The examples do have spaces; and I would personally go with that. Remember that Misplaced Pages has no 'hard and fast' rules. It has policies, and guidelines, but nothing is set in stone. Many style elements are left to the individual author - i.e. it's your encyclopaedia, so you can write it whichever way you like. I will, meanwhile, keep looking. --  Chzz  ►  09:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• • It would seem that Chzz is correct, there doesn't appear to be a specific policy for something like this (I was a bit too quick with my link). But as he says, you can write it any way you'd like; if someone has strong feelings for one or the other they'll just move it and / or create a redirect. :) Bjelleklang - talk Bug Me 09:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! LarRan (talk) 09:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Having poured over the WP:MOS and some other related articles, I'm pretty sure that there is no mention of this in policy. However, all articles I looked at appear to put a space after the initials. I think that this is something of a convention in the English language, and the majority write the name that way without thinking about it - hence it's not been documented. I'm sorry there's nothing definitive (unless I've missed something) - but that's the way it goes, sometimes. Always remember to obey WP:IAR. Cheers! --  Chzz  ►  09:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

If there is nothing on this subject, maybe it's time to try to reach a consensus on it? Who will raise the issue? I don't know "howto". LarRan (talk) 17:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Redirection

Hi LaRan - thanks for the edit on the Damon Young page. The case change makes sense (e.g. consistency). But I don't quite understand the 'avoid redirect'. Can you enlighten me? Strether (talk) 22:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi. You may not have noticed that I inserted a space into the link to T. S. Eliot (between T. and S.). The previous version said T.S. Eliot. The first is the actual name of the article, and the second is a redirect, which points to the actual article. If anyone clicks on a redirect link, there will be two data accesses; one to the redirect page, and then one to the page it points to. Thus, linking to the actual article instead of the redirect is both upholding consistency in spelling and saving some bandwidth. I admit that my edit description was a bit brief and maybe cryptic. LarRan (talk) 08:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, right - I can see it now. It's not how I prefer to cite (obviously), but I don't mind the change - particularly for Wiki consistency and bandwidth. Thank you. Strether (talk) 09:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

If redirection were as serious an issue as you conjecture, then there should be policy on this matter. As there is not such a policy, your argument is, as noted, specious. If consistency were the only concern, why not demand that no spaces be allowed between initials, which would save not only bandwidth but storage space: imagine all the megabites of server capacity wasted on blanks! But since it is not in the spirit of the Misplaced Pages to force everyone to use the same spelling or style, your attempts to force others to conform to your standards is nothing less than bullying. Your first comment to me concerning this matter in Calling the Swan was that I was being "childish", with no regard to my motivations. Had you been the principal author or a major contributor to the article, or even pointing out a question of factuality, then I would say you were justified in your insistence on this insignificant stylistic point. As I am that author, and concerned with monitoring vandalism on it, I think my concerns trump yours. I did concede some of your points, so I am not a megalomaniac; but clearly you have showed your true colours in your behaviour, words, and feelings.--Alwpoe (talk) 10:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Who's bullying who? I made a good faith edit, which you reverted without motivation. By chance I came across the same article again, and made the same change, supported with a motivation (that was my first comment, stick to the truth!). You reverted me again. After having been reverted twice, yes, I thought your actions were childish.

You being the creator of the article - or a major contributor - does not constitute ownership, in your case a presumed right to be a bullying watchdog. In your reply above, I still can't distinguish any argument as to why you oppose consistency in spelling and reduction of bandwidth (other than you "being the owner" type of argument). If you - against all odds - can come up with any, please use the phrase "I prefer inconsistency in spelling because..." or "I prefer increased bandwidth consumption because...". I'm not saying consistency in spelling or avoiding unnecessary redirects are seriuos issues - what I am saying is that consistency is better than inconsistency, and less bandwidth consumption is better than more. Why do you bother? What's it to you?

There is also a third argument: the "Related changes" function. If you link to a redirect, that function will show changes to the redirect page (by nature being rare), but not changes to the actual page. Is that what you want?

Regarding your argument on "megabytes megabites of server capacity wasted on blanks", that could be used for any letter of the alphabet. (Imagine the space we could save if we omitted all Ms.) Spaces fill a purpose too, in case you haven't noticed: theyseparatewordsfromeachother.

And another thing: if you want respect from others, you've got to show it to others too. It goes two ways. Your reactions and behaviour is in sharp contrast to that of Strether (which can also be seen in this section). I'm not at all surprised to learn from your talkpage that you have been blocked previously.

LarRan (talk) 16:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The facts remain that you were the first to call me "childish", which shows your level of immaturity; that I am the author of the article, and while that doesn't give me "ownership", it certainly gives me a stronger vested interest in it than a pedantic marauder like you; that I have never been blocked (your interpretations are always suspect, obviously you are neither a careful reader or thinker); and that I did acknowledge your legitimate contributions to the article. As for consistency, I'm all in favour of it; therefore, I suggest you spend your time eliminating the spaces between initials in every article here on Misplaced Pages. You obviously need a project to occupy your mind, such as it is.--Alwpoe (talk) 19:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Oops, you were "only" almost blocked. Missed that. My mistake. But I guess that's just a matter of time. Of course I was the first to call you childish. I probably won't be the last. You seem to be adopting the position of "he who said it, was it". That's childish too. LarRan (talk) 20:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I find your belligerent rudeness and intellectual lacunae amusing. Pray continue. --Alwpoe (talk) 01:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally I find your total lack of valid arguments baffling. I thought your repeated reverts were childish. According to you, that proves I'm immature! That position could be summarized as "he who said it, was it", no matter how big clouds of words you try to disguise it in. LarRan (talk) 15:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I don't mind changing style - it's academic habit. But, as it happens, I now know how to keep my 'spaceless' initials, while avoiding a redirect (with the ] code). Strether (talk) 11:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Johan Franzen

Ah, I misread the table. I thought it said that Franzen won a gold medal playing for the Latvian team. Sorry; I'll be more careful. TheMile (talk) 20:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Ulf Sandström (ice hockey)

A tag has been placed on Ulf Sandström (ice hockey), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Misplaced Pages:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. If you plan to expand the article, you can request that administrators wait a while for you to add contextual material. To do this, affix the template {{hangon}} to the article and state your intention on the article's talk page. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Justpassin (talk) 20:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Copy/Paste Move

I just noticed you did what appears to be a Copy/Paste move of Jean-François Labbé. In order to be GDFL compliant we are not allowed to do that because we have to still have the edit history present on the page for credit purposes. If you can't move a page because you need an admin or something like that just make a request at the request for moves page. I have fixed this particular page now however. -Djsasso (talk) 14:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. I didn't know how to go about it, when the article's correct name already existed as a redirect. What exactly did you do to "fix" things? I mean with regard to the article's history? LarRan (talk) 20:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Deleted the page you copied things to and them moved the other page to its location. And then added in your changes. I am an admin so I can delete pages when there are redirects in the way. -Djsasso (talk) 21:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Saab responds

Per this diff, when you add "Saab responded on 2 July 2008", it would be helpful if you added what their response actually was. It does not say whether the response was positive or negative, and someone should not have to read the source to find that out. I'm not trying to be overly critical, but am trying to make sure the text is as clear as possible. I realize English is probably not your mother tongue, but you are fairly fluent in it, from what I have seen. I know words don't always translate equally, and the connotations of words can differ even more.

I did not rewrite or add anything to what you wrote, because I'm unsure of the exact terminology Saab would use. (And it's very late here, so off to bed after this post!) If I did rewrite it, I'd say something like, "Saab responded on 2 July 2008 with proposal/bid/(whatever word is appropriate)." Thanks. - BillCJ (talk) 08:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, made some adjustments. Hope you like them. Cheers. LarRan (talk) 11:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikimania 2010 could be coming to Stockholm!

I'm leaving you a note as you may be interested in this opportunity.

People from all six Nordic Wiki-communities (sv, no, nn, fi, da and is) are coordinating a bid for Wikimania 2010 in Stockholm. I'm sending you a message to let you know that this is occurring, and over the next few months we're looking for community support to make sure this happens! See the bid page on meta and if you like such an idea, please sign the "supporters" list at the bottom. Tack (or takk), and have a wonderful day! Mike H. Fierce! 09:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Template:,

Replied on my Talk:

Ah, awesome; you're a star :o) — OwenBlacker (Talk) 20:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Search help

{{help}} I just nominated the template Template:, ({{,}}) for speedy deletion - and speedy it was! I thought it would take 7 days, but it took 7 seconds. I didn't have time to remove the use of the template from the few pages (c. 60) that used it before it was deleted. Does anybody have any idea on how to search out these pages when the "what links here" function cannot be used? I tried searching for the string {{,}}, but it didn't work. LarRan (talk) 20:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• Here you go. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 20:31, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! LarRan (talk) 20:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The Plays of William Shakespeare

Thanks for noticing the little stuff over at The Plays of William Shakespeare. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Unlinking dates

Regarding the comment below:

Revision as of 08:44, 16 September 2008 (edit) LarRan (Talk | contribs) m (Unlinked dates, new convention.) ← Previous edit

Can you cite the "new convention" you are referring to? It makes sense to be able to link dates, so that one can have some background context for the year.Ryoung122 01:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Look here: Misplaced Pages:MOSDATE#Date_autoformatting

Cheers. LarRan (talk) 07:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I have been unlinking dates on my recent hockey based edits, would it be okay for me to use your edit summary for these. I thought I'd ask about, I don't want to 'steal' anything here. Raphie (talk) 02:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're referring to the text "Unlinking dates (new convention)...", I don't think that is covered by any copyrights. If you want to use it - by all means.

Cheers, LarRan (talk) 08:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for that. Raphie (talk) 11:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Handy how I don't have to start a new topic. There is no guideline for player bios, but the new convention you cite makes it clear that "Links to articles on a topic in a specific chronological period, such as 1441 in art, 1982 in film, and 18th century in United States history, may add significantly to readers' understanding of the current topic." The links to season articles that you were removing would fit into that category. Since you're making the changes, the onus is on you to make good changes, not remove relevant links. Really, I can't be arsed to correct all your mistakes. So please don't engage in mindless busybodyism and ignore the details. It's up to you to go that extra mile and make the constructive change. --Pwnage8 (talk) 20:11, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Orienteering

Hi. In the past you have contributed to Orienteering, so you might like to know the article is getting a makeover. If you would like to help, please see Talk:Orienteering. Thanks. --Una Smith (talk) 20:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorting player list

What does sorting by a player's name at List of National Hockey League players with 500 goals offer in terms of meaningful information? Just because a list is sortable, that doesn't mean every column should be made sortable. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

An easily found example is when you are matching two lists. One of the lists is sorted in a certain order, and that order is 1) not changeable, and 2) not the same as the other list. If the other list - the re-sortable wikitable - then could be sorted in another way, that would be very helpful.

You may, for instance have a list of goaltenders or goal scorers in a certain context, sorted alphabetically.

Can you come up with a strong argument against having all columns sortable?

LarRan (talk) 14:43, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how sorting is helpful for matching lists, or maybe I am not entirely sure what you mean by that. Do you mean something like a comparison between this and the 1000-points list? Can you offer a specific example of how this makes things easier? (Using a browser search function is quicker than sorting the lists.) If you look at List of elements by symbol, for example, you will see the "Etymology of Symbol" column is not sortable. The column's sortability doesn't offer anything to the list. I would say that pretty much every other column in the 500-goal list—including the goalie scored against (note: Patrick Roy is on the list three times)—offers something meaningful to someone analyzing the list, but not the name. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 04:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Let's say that we have a table of goaltenders (table B) that have something special in common. Let's also say that this table has a significant number of entries, and that the only common element between the tables is the goaltender column. Now, if we wanted to know which of the goaltenders in table B, if any, have also conceded a goal that happened to be 500th of the goalscorer in question, we would naturally sort both tables in "goaltender order". That is, if such a thing is possible. Which is why you have sortable wikitables. Having both tables sorted, the answer can be found pretty easily. If not, you are left to perform a manual one-by-one find in one of the tables, which could be a pretty tidious job, depending on the number of entries in the smallest table.

You could also have a list of goalscorers: which (if any) of the goalscorers have (or have not) been inducted into the HHoF, or scored their 1000th against the same goalie as their 500th goal (or have appeared in whatever specific context)?

I realize that the most relevant order for the article is the order in which these 500th goals occurred. That is also the order in which the goals are entered, and thus the default order. But as I explained above, it could prove useful to be able to sort the table in alternative orders. What's the point in having a table sortable on only one column? And what's the big disadvantage in being able to sort a table on more than one column? What's the big advantage in excluding the goalscorer and goaltender columns from that functionality, apart from saving a few bytes?

LarRan (talk) 11:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I only made the goal-scorer's column unsortable. The advantage of removing it is that there is less extraneous information for the reader. Having that column sortable just offers users something to click, but the names of the players don't tell us anything about the data being presented. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 11:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

As I illustrated above, it could be useful. I don't think you have provided any convincing argument against. If a user clicks that column unnecessarily, so what? LarRan (talk) 12:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how the above example is useful—as I said, the goaltender column was still sortable after my change. What list are they comparing to? How does comparing a person's name offer anything meaningful? Why would they be using Misplaced Pages software as their analytical tool, rather than copying the information from Misplaced Pages to appropriate software such as Excel in order to do this comparison? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 13:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how to explain this further, I'm close to exhausting my pedagogical skills. Are you sure you've read my explanations thoroughly? Let me see if I can get this straight: you don't object to the goaltender column being sortable, right? That leaves the goalscorer column as the one you object to being sortable by name, is that right? What if - as I illustrated above (bolded) - one has another list of goalscorers (or skaters in general) that appear in a specific context? If one wants to check which of those players (if any) have also scored 500 goals, one way of doing it could be to match that list with this wikipedia list, right? If, for instance, you'd want to compare the list of hockey players inducted into the HHoF with the 500 goals list, it would be much easier done if both lists are sorted on the goalscorer column, right? The HHoF list is probably in the order the players were inducted, which is not necessarily the same order has they scored their 500th goal. That's pretty much it.

Why people wouldn't want to use Excel? If they could just press the 'sort' button, wouldn't that be easier?

LarRan (talk) 11:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

They would still have to flip back and forth between tabs to check each list, line-for-line. Do you think anyone is even doing this (and, if so, wouldn't someone exhibiting such obsessiveness devise an easier way to compare them)? Oh well, even if no one actually exhibits the behavior you describe, I no longer care if it's sortable. I'll leave it in that article. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 16:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Most people have a printer to their computer, so they would not have to "exhibit the behavior" of flipping between tabs, whether they are "obsessive" or not. And don't you think people would have to check line-by-line in Excel?

But thanks a lot for leaving it in the article. You've been using much time and trouble, both yours and mine, for just nothing. Thanks again.

LarRan (talk) 17:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Use of DEFAULTSORT within discussion pages

I appreciate the opportunity, courtesy of your inquiry, to examine some of the details involving the use of DEFAULTSORT. In the period between the appearance of English Misplaced Pages's first article in January 2001 and the introduction of the categorization system in May 2004, numerous discussions raised competing issues as to the technical details surrounding the immediately obvious need for an orderly arrangement. As categories multiplied in 2004, 2005 and 2006, each one had to be individually alphabetized through the use of piping and surname (in biographical entries) or piping and title (without "a", "an" or "the"). The thousands of templated categories on discussion pages did not have individual components compatible with piping and thus remained unsorted (or, rather, sorted by given names and titles with definite and indefinite articles, as well as hundreds of Unicode symbols ). The development of DEFAULTSORT in January 2007, obviated the need for individual alphabetizing, streamlining the process of categorization and, simultaneously providing the first opportunity to bring alphabetical order to the neglected templated discussion-page categories (a measure of their neglect and lack of usable elements may be gauged by the fact that despite having thousands of entries, most did not even contain a table of contents ). A sorting feature specifically designed to be used within the discussion page templates came into use in April 2007, shortly after the introduction of DEFAULTSORT. The feature, listas, is programmed to work in the same manner as DEFAULTSORT, and generally does, but both are technically imperfect and developed sorting issues. Due to various programming quirks and peculiarities within individual templates, some respond only to DEFAULTSORT, some to listas and some to neither. A partial list of the unresponsive templated categories can be found here. Hundreds of thousands of biographies have not even been furnished with listas (332,845 at last count) and can be found at Category:Biography articles without listas parameter. Manual addition of DEFAULTSORT improves the situation somewhat but, due to its own technical issues, it must be positioned below the Wikitags, and will be unable to perform its alphabetizing function if placed above. There are numerous other details concerning this matter and if you would like to discuss them further, I would be glad to do so, but since your question was so brief, I felt that an equally brief response, "yes" would appear inadequate. It should also be noted that these discussion-page additions of DEFAULTSORT are a continuing process begun in May 2007.—Roman Spinner (talk) 02:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Non-breaking spaces

Please don't remove non-breaking spaces like you did on 2007–08 Pittsburgh Penguins season they are an important part of article's formatting, and essential in GA and FAs. Blackngold29 17:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, but what's the point in having non-breaking spaces in the middle of a paragraph? And why especially in FAs and GAs? It doesn't seem important to me if "102" is on the end of a line, and "points" on the start of next. Is there a consensus/convention on this? LarRan (talk) 17:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If you check out WP:NBSP it has WP's view. I usually use them for a numeral follwed by a unit (ie. 200 people). It may seem like it's in the middle of the paragraph, but you never know when someone else will add or remove a sentence and then it'll be needed; so I just add them everywhere to stay on the safe side. Thanks about the re-directs by the way, I guess nobody else caught that. Blackngold29 12:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Devils coaches

I understand your comments. However, as Misplaced Pages: Ice Hockey protocol controls the page, I believe it is standard operating procedure to link to the appropriate seasons. If you see the other head coaches featured lists, with one exception they link to the season. I have opened a discussion on the Ice Hockey project page to confirm this. I am notifying you that if I receive confirmation of my suspicion, I will be reinstating the links to the seasons, and request that you no longer remove them. I hope we can come to an understanding on this dispute. Anthony Hit me up... 15:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a dispute, and I haven't reverted the reinstated links. But thanks for notifying me.

LarRan (talk) 15:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)