| Revision as of 00:43, 27 September 2008 editChrisO~enwiki (talk | contribs)43,032 edits →Civility: - a request for some more care in what's being said← Previous edit | Revision as of 12:48, 27 September 2008 edit undoEleland (talk | contribs)8,909 edits →CivilityNext edit → | ||
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| :::E. Misplaced Pages admins have an unenviable job, it ain't quite as enjoyable as editing, which is in any case, in the I/P area, mainly exasperation. Quick judgements on diffs, and often without time to check in depth (Donato stepped back, earlier,'I lack familiarity with this dispute', and took note that perhaps some things had escaped him etc). Only problem is that Saxaphonemn kibitzes away, as a newbie, on pages where you've toiled for years. To stay away from such blowin editors would be tantamount to leaving wiki, since they tend to follow serious editors about. It's late, I'm out. I'm fucked if it's worth the candle mate, at times like this. But if we don't keep our noses clean, whatever snot's wheezed our way by the Protocol spin-teamsters, who's going to look after that 22% and its people's right to representation? ] (]) 22:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC) | :::E. Misplaced Pages admins have an unenviable job, it ain't quite as enjoyable as editing, which is in any case, in the I/P area, mainly exasperation. Quick judgements on diffs, and often without time to check in depth (Donato stepped back, earlier,'I lack familiarity with this dispute', and took note that perhaps some things had escaped him etc). Only problem is that Saxaphonemn kibitzes away, as a newbie, on pages where you've toiled for years. To stay away from such blowin editors would be tantamount to leaving wiki, since they tend to follow serious editors about. It's late, I'm out. I'm fucked if it's worth the candle mate, at times like this. But if we don't keep our noses clean, whatever snot's wheezed our way by the Protocol spin-teamsters, who's going to look after that 22% and its people's right to representation? ] (]) 22:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC) | ||
| Eleland, I came across this discussion on your talk page. Apologies for my intrusion, but I thought I would offer some advice to you and Nishidani as your friendly neighborhood admin™. It really doesn't seem appropriate to refer to people as "horn-blowers" (is that a reference to the ]?) and "the master race". It certainly isn't conducive to a friendly editing environment, and I can't see how it can help if it results in antagonising people. Please think about the effect of what you're posting and ask yourself if your comments are going to help the discussion and what you want to achieve by posting them. -- ] (]) 00:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC) | Eleland, I came across this discussion on your talk page. Apologies for my intrusion, but I thought I would offer some advice to you and Nishidani as your friendly neighborhood admin™. It really doesn't seem appropriate to refer to people as "horn-blowers" (is that a reference to the ]?) and "the master race". It certainly isn't conducive to a friendly editing environment, and I can't see how it can help if it results in antagonising people. Please think about the effect of what you're posting and ask yourself if your comments are going to help the discussion and what you want to achieve by posting them. -- ] (]) 00:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC) | ||
| :ChrisO you would have to ask whoever made the "horn blower" comment because it wasn't me. As for "master race," that is simply a direct, accurate reading of Saxophonem's conception of how the world works. He did, indeed, post a quote about how Jews are timeless and eternal and anybody who opposes them will, to use an ''apropos'' phrasing, disappear from the pages of history, or perhaps I should say be wiped off the map. He posted this to ]. | |||
| :If you want me to take this whole kerfuffle seriously, here's what you should do. Create a pan-Arabian sockpuppet who runs around making absurd demands and posting nationalist calls-to-arms on Israel related pages (or really any page that even in passing mentions Israel, like ].) Make sure that it's suspected from the beginning as a sock-puppet, and that its edits are clearly linked to a known group of internet thugs who amuse themselves by, for example, breaking into pro-Israeli settler facebook groups and deleting all the members. Then have your sockpuppet post a quote about how all who oppose Islam will be destroyed to ], as an epigraph to a discussion about why the page should be renamed to "Zionist entity." Then, when people call him "you cunt" and "clearly unfit to edit," go ahead and give them your civility lecture. ''Then'' I'll take you seriously. Until then, I have to admit - I still think Saxophonem is a cunt. I mean it. He's a huuuuge douchebag. He can go fuck himself. <]/]]> 12:48, 27 September 2008 (UTC) | |||
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Jerusalem
"What you think "we all know" is hardly a basis for Misplaced Pages editing, especially when it relates to an irrelevant and irrational claim which isn't even true (some 30% of Jerusalemites speak Arabic, self-identify as Palestinian, and refuse Israeli citizenship - in the Old City it is more like 85%.) "Israel and West Bank" is OK with me, even though the ancient part of Jerusalem is entirely outside the Green Line. It is not clear to me why edit warring and talk-page vitriol over several months should be necessary to change "Israel and Palestinian Territories" to "Israel and West Bank," either. But I think we are (finally) done here. <eleland/talkedits> 01:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)"
Thank you, you prove the point of ignorance you base your assertions on distortions of reality.
1) Speaking Arabic, as in the other official language of Israel?
2) Palestinian is a dubious title coined in the 1960's.
3)Arab/Muslim ethnic cleansing and occupations really shook up the demographics.
4) The Green line, go to Jerusalem and look for it in Jerusalem, but seriously people lived outside of the walls of the city in ancient times and the area is not so cut up.
5) Your assertions are entirely based upon some alternative universe in which Jerusalem the anglicization of Yerushalayim a Hebrew word makes it a non-Jewish place. Ironically the Arab designation al-Quds is in reference to the Two Temples that Arafat said never existed.
6) International law is extremely vague on many of the points, and a State's sovereignty in principle suggest that no foreign entity extends rules over its own. Whether you like it or not.
--Saxophonemn (talk) 02:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Jerusalem is Jewish" doesn't even make sense. Jerusalem is a city, not an individual. I mean, did Jerusalem pass its Bat Mitzvah when it was twelve or something? It makes sense to state "the majority of its inhabitants are Jewish", which apparently holds for the city but not for the Old City. But I don't suppose it is worth the effort to try any kind of rational approach with someone as steeped in ideology as Saxophonemn. He keeps conflating "Jewish", "Hebrew" and "Israel" as if they all meant the same thing. I mean, sheesh, I would like to feel more sympathetic for the Israeli side in all this, but people like this don't make it any easier. dab (𒁳) 07:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Is Paris French? Is Tokyo Japanese? Jewish/Hebrew/Israel not in quotes are the essentially the same thing, I have yet to make a Venn diagram. My ideology is Torah, not a popularity contest.--Saxophonemn (talk) 12:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I never would have guessed. <eleland/talkedits> 17:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Is Paris French? Is Tokyo Japanese? Jewish/Hebrew/Israel not in quotes are the essentially the same thing, I have yet to make a Venn diagram. My ideology is Torah, not a popularity contest.--Saxophonemn (talk) 12:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Zionism / Arab-Israeli conflict
"OH MY GOODNESS are you still on about this? You are nothing if not persistent. I would love to respond to your general views on Zionism and the Arab-Israeli conflict, really, I would. It would be enjoyable in a certain sense. But this is not the forum for it. Bottom line; you have said nothing of relevance to the question at hand. I refer to you my comments of 18:42, 4 September 2008 and 18:31, 5 September 2008 and leave it at that. <eleland/talkedits> 04:27, 21 September 2008 (UTC)"
I think you have skewed my views a bit. I take it you have a low esteem of Zionism and you're not the biggest fan of Israel based upon liberal/atheist view points which make Jews appear as out of place white folks in the wrong neighborhood. --Saxophonemn (talk) 05:58, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Civility
Please do not attack other editors. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. In particular, I'd also like to remind you of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions. Be more careful in future, GDonato (talk) 12:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well the horn-blower did imply he had 'no weakening of his parts'.Nishidani (talk) 14:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, what are you going to do about mister "You have to change this article because it's unfair to the master race," anyway? <eleland/talkedits> 17:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'd strongly urge you to consider reading the civility policy: you can not argue that the diffs I provided are examples of acceptable conduct regardless of who is looking at them. Furthermore, your reply is also of borderline appropriateness. Consider this a final warning; I'm sure you are a sensible contributor and do not need to resort to incivility, GDonato (talk) 18:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, what are you going to do about mister "You have to change this article because it's unfair to the master race," anyway? <eleland/talkedits> 17:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- With all due respect,GDonato (and apologies to Eleland for barging in on a setled matter) I'd strongly urge, now that what's said has been said, and strong warnings duly and forcibly made, that some administrator drop an equally forceful reminder to Saxaphonemn, that to manipulate Twain's quote, and insert 'Palestinians' into the text dealing with extinct peoples and cultures, is an extreme provocation to more than one editor here. Put me down as someone who objects most 'violently' to the innuendo in Saxaphonemns' crack. We all have acute ears for the blunt anger of 4 letter words. No one, other than Eleland or myself, seems to have twigged to the intense malevolence in the remark that spurred Eleland's violent rejoinder, violent, if all too human. It happens to be what I thought too in examining Saxaphonemns' words, only, because I'm slower with age, I tend to murmur such words inaudibly, without troubling a talk page with my private disgust.
'The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then . . . passed away. The Greek and the Roman followed. '
- Saxaphonemn inserted the 'Palestinians'. The undisguisedly triumphant sneer here is that the Palestinians, now striving for statehood under Israeli occupation, labour under the illusion they have a future, whereas they are already extinct. It's not a 'death threat' (sanctionable). The informal message is, 'your obituary is already written, Palestinians. Our Jewish people will perdure here while you, a transient blip on history's screen, will join the rest of humanity along the path of extinction. In fact, you've no future, since you are already consigned to the past'. Eleland, as someone editing to keep the record of Palestinian claims to a national identity untarnished by the kind of suppressio veri at times engineered around I/P articles, took this personally. He admitted his error, and erased the remark within 15 minutes. Almost all of us have zero-tolerance for antisemitism. By the same token, we don't like newbie editors who have done nothing so far to read widely and deeply and edit seriously, coming forth with vainglorious insinuations that the people Israel occupies are, unlike the Jewish people, marked down to join history's dustbin of dead peoples. Regards Nishidani (talk) 19:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is a certain degree for concern regarding those words but I lack the familiarity with this dispute to know exactly to what degree some comments are inappropriate or offensive. I am willing to keep an eye on Saxophonemn (talk · contribs) if that is what you want to see if there are any policy violations there. Lastly, the removal of a comment from this page has been noted as I find it slightly concerning, GDonato (talk) 21:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Saxaphonemn inserted the 'Palestinians'. The undisguisedly triumphant sneer here is that the Palestinians, now striving for statehood under Israeli occupation, labour under the illusion they have a future, whereas they are already extinct. It's not a 'death threat' (sanctionable). The informal message is, 'your obituary is already written, Palestinians. Our Jewish people will perdure here while you, a transient blip on history's screen, will join the rest of humanity along the path of extinction. In fact, you've no future, since you are already consigned to the past'. Eleland, as someone editing to keep the record of Palestinian claims to a national identity untarnished by the kind of suppressio veri at times engineered around I/P articles, took this personally. He admitted his error, and erased the remark within 15 minutes. Almost all of us have zero-tolerance for antisemitism. By the same token, we don't like newbie editors who have done nothing so far to read widely and deeply and edit seriously, coming forth with vainglorious insinuations that the people Israel occupies are, unlike the Jewish people, marked down to join history's dustbin of dead peoples. Regards Nishidani (talk) 19:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for that reflection. I've dropped a note on your page. I hope this is settled. I need a cuppa, or a reefer of that stuff we used to get off friendly folks in Gaza in the good old days, when you could walk round there and smoke interesting herbal stuff, before someone came up with the idea they were terrorists, and weeds dangerous.Nishidani (talk) 21:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- I removed the content, GD, because it was BASELESSLY ACCUSING ME OF ENDORSING THE PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. Ok, can you see why that might be a problem? MAYBE? JUST A LITTLE BIT?!?!?!?!? FOR FUCKS SAKE WHAT IS WRONG WITH WIKIPEDIA ADMINS <eleland/talkedits> 21:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- (<=) I think (and I hope) that was not his intention. Let's leave it for just now and maybe try to stay away from editors who you feel you might fall into dispute with or make sure that you are always civil when communicating with them. I'm always available by e-mail, talk page and IRC for any good faith requests or complaints about conduct. Cheers, GDonato (talk) 21:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- E. Misplaced Pages admins have an unenviable job, it ain't quite as enjoyable as editing, which is in any case, in the I/P area, mainly exasperation. Quick judgements on diffs, and often without time to check in depth (Donato stepped back, earlier,'I lack familiarity with this dispute', and took note that perhaps some things had escaped him etc). Only problem is that Saxaphonemn kibitzes away, as a newbie, on pages where you've toiled for years. To stay away from such blowin editors would be tantamount to leaving wiki, since they tend to follow serious editors about. It's late, I'm out. I'm fucked if it's worth the candle mate, at times like this. But if we don't keep our noses clean, whatever snot's wheezed our way by the Protocol spin-teamsters, who's going to look after that 22% and its people's right to representation? Nishidani (talk) 22:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Eleland, I came across this discussion on your talk page. Apologies for my intrusion, but I thought I would offer some advice to you and Nishidani as your friendly neighborhood admin™. It really doesn't seem appropriate to refer to people as "horn-blowers" (is that a reference to the shofar?) and "the master race". It certainly isn't conducive to a friendly editing environment, and I can't see how it can help if it results in antagonising people. Please think about the effect of what you're posting and ask yourself if your comments are going to help the discussion and what you want to achieve by posting them. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
- ChrisO you would have to ask whoever made the "horn blower" comment because it wasn't me. As for "master race," that is simply a direct, accurate reading of Saxophonem's conception of how the world works. He did, indeed, post a quote about how Jews are timeless and eternal and anybody who opposes them will, to use an apropos phrasing, disappear from the pages of history, or perhaps I should say be wiped off the map. He posted this to Talk:Palestinian territories.
- If you want me to take this whole kerfuffle seriously, here's what you should do. Create a pan-Arabian sockpuppet who runs around making absurd demands and posting nationalist calls-to-arms on Israel related pages (or really any page that even in passing mentions Israel, like List of oldest continuously occupied cities.) Make sure that it's suspected from the beginning as a sock-puppet, and that its edits are clearly linked to a known group of internet thugs who amuse themselves by, for example, breaking into pro-Israeli settler facebook groups and deleting all the members. Then have your sockpuppet post a quote about how all who oppose Islam will be destroyed to Talk:Israel, as an epigraph to a discussion about why the page should be renamed to "Zionist entity." Then, when people call him "you cunt" and "clearly unfit to edit," go ahead and give them your civility lecture. Then I'll take you seriously. Until then, I have to admit - I still think Saxophonem is a cunt. I mean it. He's a huuuuge douchebag. He can go fuck himself. <eleland/talkedits> 12:48, 27 September 2008 (UTC)