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| :These are event-specific, and belong elsewhere. Where have they gone? see edit summaries. ] (]) 08:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC) | :These are event-specific, and belong elsewhere. Where have they gone? see edit summaries. ] (]) 08:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC) | ||
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Gender verification
There are reports in the Western news media that gender verification will be in effect in Beijing. According to the article gender verification in sports, it has "been officially stopped by the International Olympic Committee in 1999". Wonder if someone can verify this. --Voidvector (talk) 15:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Olympic documents
- Beijing Briefing Kit, 3 August 2007, Volume 4 —Preceding unsigned comment added by DL5MDA (talk • contribs) 22:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
NYT article on NBC tape delay backlash
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/sports/olympics/09nbc.html?hp
Good article on NBC's futile efforts to censor (online) footage of the opening ceremonies within the US. --Madchester (talk) 04:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
NBC West Coast Primetime Delay Very sad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.122.28.117 (talk) 03:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- If you're on a satellite dish, you should be able to get east coast... 70.55.86.69 (talk) 11:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
- Added my contribution. Edit as you see fit. --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 05:56, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Concerns or controversies?
Let's just say it like it is: these are controversies. Having the article named "Concerns..." is weak. Barrylb (talk) 08:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
- Poor crowd turn out is not controversial. BillyTFried (talk) 19:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
- China faking the ages of its athletes is.Rhinowing (talk) 01:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
- Several of the controversies in the article describe events (rampant forced disappearances, persecution, apartheid, forcible transfer of population) that may qualify as crimes against humanity in accordance with the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. "Concerns" does indeed sound less partisan, but may not be appropriate anymore. — C M B J 22:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
- You have actually mentioned the primary reason why "concerns" is used. As per WP:NPOV, wikipedia is not a partisan advocate of any one viewpoint, and is less-partisan terms are certainly appropriate.--Huaiwei (talk) 11:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Several of the controversies in the article describe events (rampant forced disappearances, persecution, apartheid, forcible transfer of population) that may qualify as crimes against humanity in accordance with the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. "Concerns" does indeed sound less partisan, but may not be appropriate anymore. — C M B J 22:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 21:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
It is undeniable that some events that have happened before the Games (for example the torch relay) and during the Games have been controversial. Therefore, naming the article "Controversies over the 2008 Summer Olympics" rather than "Concerns..." seems to be a more accurate, neutral name because "concerns" does not accurately represent the level of controversy that these events have generated. -Paul1337 (talk) 15:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)3
I suggest that the following sections are concerns, not controversies; and therefore the article could be split, but would be inappropriate to rename as proposed.
4 Environmental and health issues
* 4.1 Air pollution concerns
o 4.1.1 Air Quality Measurements in Beijing
* 4.2 Weather forecasting
* 4.3 Water and drought history
* 4.4 Algal bloom
* 4.5 Locust prevention
* 4.6 Oil slick
6 Terrorism
* 6.1 Sabotage plot
For example, Air Quality: there was no dispute about the facts or the extent to which they were relevant.. there was just a concern which gave rise to various activities to make the air cleaner. Neither was there controversy over what constituted over-polluted air, because this is regulated and benchmarked. I propose that on this basis, the article could be split, but is not appropriate for it simply to be moved. Tsuchan (talk) 17:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that those sections cannot correctly be called controversies, they are indeed concerns, as you say. Instead of splitting the article, how about moving it to Concerns and controversies over the 2008 Summer Olympics? This would be a more accurate title than both the current "Concerns..." and my original proposal "Controversies...". -Paul1337 (talk) 18:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I have now adjusted the move request to Concerns and controversies over the 2008 Summer Olympics both on this talk page and at Requested moves. -Paul1337 (talk) 19:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I agree as being wholly appropriate and obviates need to have two separate articles. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- The problem with just changing the title is that it ducks the issue, that the page is a mish-mash of far too many subjects very tenuously related to the title. I mean, it could be almost spot on as an accurate title if it were renamed to "General issues with more or less some connection with the 2008 Olympic Games in China, focusing on things the Chinese government wouldn't be too keen to emphasise as a lasting memorial." Encyclopaedia topics are generally best on a narrow focus, because they steer the reader to exactly what s/he is looking for, they can be linked as highly relevant articles from lots of other topics, on a Misplaced Pages level they must be far easier to manage, etc. Tsuchan (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- In a way, you are correct. However, your basic assumption is that all of the stuff stayed. Of course, changing the title needs also to be accompanied by a refocus on the real concerns and controversies of teh Olympic games. Ohconfucius (talk) 11:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- I have reconsidered the relevance of the Environmental issues, and now am of the belief that much of this belongs in the Environment of China. Although it certainly warrants a mention, it is an issue which transcends the Olympic games. The section on air pollution in the latter article is poorly populated relative to this article, and that certainly needs to be corrected. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Spelling consisting
Madchester- It doesn't matter what spelling IOC uses. (See Manual of Style, which refers only to a strong connection to a particular region.) Moreover, China uses American spelling (with logical puntuation -- just like Misplaced Pages!) on their Olympic Web site, though that, too, is irrelevant. Let's follow WP policy here! The article started out with American spelling; let's keep it that way. (And let's keep it consistent!) Thanks. PeterH2 (talk) 07:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed, I believe in China its common to use American spellings, only in Hong Kong and other colonies will you find more British influence to be common. .:davumaya:. 10:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- Firstly, Misplaced Pages's MOS indicates that we actually have no preference towards one variant of English over another.
- Second, the best solution is to substitute those words with multiple spellings with ones that are common across all variants of English. i.e., criticize/criticise to denounce, organize/organise to form, index, etc. Also when you're taking quotations from a source, you should still be reproducing it word for word, even if its based on a different spelling variant. I've made the appropriate fixes using the appropriate synonyms, except for one word ("politicising"), which was directly quoted from the BBC article.
- The reason I referred to the IOC standard, is because we use the organization as the main reference for Olympic articles. I remember moderating over an edit war at Talk:2006_Winter_Olympics_medal_count with multiple editors trying to promote their different counting systems, instead of following the one established by the IOC. --Madchester (talk) 19:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this comment section be "Spelling Consistency" rather than "Spelling consisting", which is grammatically meaningless? In the substance of this discussion, in fact China famously uses Chinese; not British English, not American English. And it is irrelevant to the issue: this is the English version of Misplaced Pages... the language of China has no bearing on it. There are a lot more serious - terribly serious - problems in this article than the spelling. And if spelling is to be brought up, "logical puntuation" is a spelling mistake in any brand of English of which I know. Tsuchan (talk) 17:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Ticket scalpers
here, I wodner if this should be included or wait to see what develops. Katana Geldar 07:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
2008 Kunming bus bombings
Should these bombings be mentioned? I'm not sure if they are, but I can't tell. Spencer 21:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- yes because they are fundamentally a threat to the Games posed by the terroists (or whatever they call themselves). Maybe there should be a new section named safety; as this is not an isolated event, there has been a few potential threats made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ingramhk (talk • contribs) 16:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
There are security threats to all Olympic Games, and surely that is likely to continue into the future. I suggest a topic "Threats to the Olympic Games" which could have a section per Olympics. This would enable it to be neatly referenced by articles on the Olympics, Terror, Security, Public Events Safety, etc. They are not controversies, and I submit that there too many to be dealt with in detail even in a distinct topic on "Concerns".
Even in a separate and specific topic on "Threats to the Olympic Games", a bus bombing itself is a news article and only merits a link, unless it is going to be an article by itself recording in encyclopaedic fashion factual and statistical information. Tsuchan (talk) 06:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with Ingramhk. I believe it a tangential subject which warrants no more than one single line. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:38, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
The begining singer
I read while look on the drudge report that the girl who "sang" the song was not singing it, instead she was chossen because the girl that was choosen for her voice had buck teath. Should this be mentioned, and no I can not find the site where it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Not G. Ivingname (talk • contribs) 15:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I remember I saw it on a news report. They said she wasn't cute/pretty enough (I knew something didn't look right). 12.74.209.109 (talk) 02:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Age of Chinese Gymastics
I had previously added that the Times of London (I believe) indicated that a simple series of x-rays of arms, hands, and legs, could help dispel the age question. unfortunately, I do not know how to add references to the page. Could someone else double check this and add it, I think it is worth it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.117.153.55 (talk) 20:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Though there is nothing offical about this, and might not be apporpriate, but is widely thought that the chinese olimpic team is underaged, though on there pasports it says they are 16, but even the person covering the games says they looked to young, If anyone can find something offical to comfirm or denie this, that would be great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Not G. Ivingname (talk • contribs) 16:03, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
- A section on this topic has been added to the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/Concerns_over_the_2008_Summer_Olympics#Possibly_Underage_Gymnasts BillyTFried (talk) 19:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The IOC is not investigating the age, even though their is monting evidence? I heard they were, though I did not read it personally though. is there anyone who can look for evidence of this?--Not G. Ivingname (talk) 21:55, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
- Why are concerns over one event appearing in this article, when they should appear in the respective event page? This is not an issue which concerns the entire games, and if anything, doping is of far greater concern across all sports.--Huaiwei (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not clear why age is a controversy. In the 2008 Olympics Tom_Daley_(diver) was a 14-year old diver from Great Britain, but that doesn't seem to be controversial. If it is to be a controversy suitable for recording in an encyclopaedia, the minimum age needs to be recorded and a credible citation to a IOC rule provided. Tsuchan (talk) 16:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - The minimum ages are different in different sports. Please see . Badagnani (talk) 08:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The article says:
Former noted coach and NBC guest commentator Béla Károlyi has said that the 2008 Chinese women's gymnastics team cheated by using athletes who did not meet the minimum age requirements. He and his wife stated that "They are using half-people. One of the biggest frustrations is, what arrogance. These people think we are stupid."
Surely this is opinion, gossip, tickle-tackle; not encyclopaedic. Tsuchan (talk) 16:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- I was contemplating removing it too. But I will do so as part of a complete overhaul. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- If this will involve massive blanking which will not first have discussion and consensus, please do not engage in this for a third time, as it is simply not a permissible manner of editing at our project. Thank you for your consideration. Badagnani (talk) 05:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- Just get real! Again, consensus is running in the opposite direction to your view. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- I think some contributors to this page need to have a serious think about what consensus means. If we hold out for unanimity, we're all going to be waiting around for a long time. My understanding of a Misplaced Pages consensus model is to have a discussion in advance, test agreement by making a change (yes, a 'bold' change if needed), then wait for discussion. And I'm not sure "Please restore that text, then we can discuss" is what the Misplaced Pages designers had in mind. The page history does suggest that this is what has been happening. Tsuchan (talk) 10:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
In the last day or so, the age of Chinese gymnasts has risen to become a controversy that may be a enduring memory of these Olympics. But still I've not been able to locate any IOC regulations from which we can pull extract the facts, and this is most perplexing. I've spent several hours searching, to no avail. The problem is, we have two sides to this controversy: what the rules are, and whether they have been broken. Establishing what the rules are should be the simple part. A UK Daily Telegraph article represents that
"According to Olympic regulations gymnasts must turn 16 by the end of an Olympic year, but several reports in the Chinese media appeared to refer three of the Chinese gymnasts as 13 and 14 as recently as a year ago."
We can't verify whether it is accurate or whether it is complete. It doesn't help us understand whether "an Olympic year" runs from January to December. But it does introduce a new concept of "by the end of an Olympic year", which could make a competitor who was 14 years old 12-months ago a legitimate competitor.
It would be really, really useful if anybody could find a link to the Olympic Regulations and include it as a citation in this section. Tsuchan (talk) 08:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Empty Olympic seats cause concern
By Michael Bristow BBC News, Beijing
Chinese officials have admitted that they are concerned about the lack of spectators at some Olympic events.
They have hired volunteers, dressed in yellow shirts, to fill up empty venues and improve the atmosphere inside.
But Wang Wei, a senior official with the Beijing organising committee (Bocog), said other Olympics had experienced similar problems.
The comments came after spectators and journalists noticed that certain venues were far from full, even though all events are sold out.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7555509.stm
BillyTFried (talk) 19:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Foreigners taken away by Beijing police for instigating "Tibet independence"
BEIJING, Aug. 13 (Xinhua) - Seven Americans and one Japanese national were taken away by Beijing police on Wednesday noon for fomenting "Tibet independence" at a park, police said. At around 12:20, the eight people were gathering at the China Ethnic Culture Park in the northern part of urban Beijing, waving flags symbolizing "Tibet independence" and shouting slogans supporting "Tibet independence". Police also said the eight entered China on tourist visas. The Beijing police was considering cutting their stay period in China and asking them to leave China. Editor: Bi Mingxin
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-08/13/content_9268286.htm
BillyTFried (talk) 20:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Protests still unwelcome in Beijing
China has set aside three parks during the Olympics, to allow people to demonstrate. But, as the BBC's Michael Bristow finds out, the parks are empty and those who apply for permission to protest are even finding themselves arrested.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7559217.stm
BillyTFried (talk) 01:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
77 Olympic protest requests, 0 approved, Applicants Arrested
BEIJING - Chinese authorities have not approved any of the 77 applications they received from people who wanted to hold protests during the Beijing Olympics, state media reported Monday. In July, China said protests would be allowed in three parks far from games venues. Tuesday is the last day anyone could apply for permission to protest during the games. "This is not realistic," Wang said. "We think that you do not really understand China's reality. China has its own version and way of exercising our democracy." There have been no demonstrations in the designated areas since the games started, though small unregulated protests have occurred in other parts of the city. Most of them have been conducted by foreigners who were swiftly deported after unfurling "Free Tibet" banners. Also Monday, a dozen people applied for permits to protest about being forcibly evicted from their homes to make way for redevelopment projects. As they gathered, plainclothes security officers videotaped them and took their photographs, a common method for Chinese authorities to keep track of dissenting voices and one that intimidates many Chinese. "I have lived all over since I became homeless, including tunnels, warehouses, on the street, and the houses of friends and relatives," Yang Shuangjun, 37, who lost his home in 2006, told AP reporters who were present. "What they have done to us is unlawful and unfair." Another petitioner, Sun Liwei, said she also has slept on the streets and relied on the kindness of friends since being kicked out of her home in 2005. "My heart aches," said Sun, a 52-year-old former teacher, her eyes filling with tears. "I have always believed in my government, even though I have lost everything. My possessions, my home, and my job were taken away from me. I don't feel like a citizen anymore."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/ap_on_re_as/oly_china_protests
BillyTFried (talk) 16:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Ara Abrahamian (Wrestler throws medal in protest)
here are two Reuters articles about the Swedish Wrestler, Ara Abrahamian, throwing his bronze medal on the mat and quiting the sport.
"Anger as Swedish wrestler loses on 'bad call"
"Swede throws down medal, faces probe"
Dreammaker182 17:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
just added this Rhinowing (talk) 01:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Issues With the Olympic Village's Religous Center
Possible new section: there are allegations that many athletes from various nations and religions are increasingly dissatisfied with the Religious Center. The complaints include that it’s hard to find, too small to house its worshippers, lacks competent religious clergy, who cannot speak or perform religious ceremonies in any other language outside their native Chinese. Athletes are apparently so angry that they repeatedly go to the center so that their multiple complaints get logged again and again to reinforce how bad it really is. Some people are arguing it’s just another example of Chinese control over religion, and what was previously taken for granted at other Olympics. Here’s a link to a Washington Post article on the subject. Some Olympians Dissatisfied With Religious Center
Also, shouldn’t the fact that Bela Karolyi was banned from the Gymnastics stadium a be added to the said section? I think its very pertitent that the most vocal critic of the Chinese Gymnastics Age Scandal wasn’t allowed access. Zidel333 (talk) 17:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
rower's bus crash?
Shouldn't the bus crash involving the Australian doctor and the athletes bus putting a bunch of Chinese in a van into critical condition be somewhere? 70.51.11.210 (talk) 14:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- No angle has been suggested to relate this to concerns and controversies about the 2008 Olympic games. There's a major distinction between something that happened during the Olympic Games and a concern or controversy about that entity, 'the 2008 Olympic Games' itself. A connection doesn't constitute relevance to the core. During the Olympic Games, Georgia attacked South Asetia, and Russia invaded Georgia. It affected millions of people. It may have been timed to co-incide with the Olympic Games because the world's attention was elsewhere, and just one particular way that it affected the Olympic Games is that the Georgia Team considered going home. It is a concern with a connection to the Olympic Games, but it is not a concern *about* the Olympic Games. And likewise, the bus crash is a concern connected to the Olympic Games, but not about that institution which *is* the Olympic Games. I hope this helps. Tsuchan (talk) 07:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Gold medal controversy
Would this be the proper place for the debate over the Liukin / Hexin results in the uneven bars competition? (no, i don't mean "Can we debate it, here, on the topic page....") it's being reported on some of the 24-hour networks, seems kinda newsworthy. if ya don't know what i'm talking about:
look over it yourself, see if it merits a reference on this page.
24.3.14.157 (talk) 12:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- I would say that it probably doesn't merit a mention. The ruling was based on an established set of laws by the IOC. The only reason it was confusing was because this situation probably hasn't come up since the rules were implemented, and that IOC gymnastics rules differ from FIG rules. In fact, Nastia doesn't seem terribly bothered by the decision. Now, the women's vault competition, on the other hand, might deserve inclusion, if it gets any further attention. --SesanaP (talk) 16:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- Can someone add a section about the f***ing (Yes I know the nicey nice rules so don't tell me) horrible judging (something simple like Judging Errors), since it appears the judges are A) being payed off or B) are incompetent dips***s who couldn't judge a minor league baseball game.--67.140.56.121 (talk) 16:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- Americans are understandably concerned over the results of the women's uneven bars competition, but so far I don't see evidence that it rises to the level of the other issues in the concerns article. Ultimately, we have to be encyclopaedic. If the controversy persists, we could include it, but I suspect that at least half of the material in this article will be cut, and probably much more over time.
- For the record, the criticisms of the uneven bars competition are that 1) the Australian judge's scoring appeared to ignore several deductions from He Kexin's routine, while making several deductions from Nastia Liukin not made by other judges. Also, 2) the tie-breaking system was confusing to the viewing public. There is also the women's vaults, where the bronze medalist Cheng Fei fell during one of her routines, but nevertheless outscored Alicia Sacramone. Sacramone did not make any major errors, though her starting difficulties were also lower than Cheng's. Nevertheless, the decision remains controversial in the United States.
- I don't see a problem with including the content, but honestly in a few months the real work of cutting away the extraneous material will begin. Any or none of these stories could survive, depending on media attention. Wellspring (talk) 22:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- While it's true that this maybe more of a matter of confusion over the judging, there are all kinds of "confusion" over legal rulings (especially criminal sentences and perceived leniency/severity), and those are usually considered worth noting. 24.3.14.157 (talk) 00:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- The Chinese were incontrol of the event I noticed after looking at the recording of it again, it was mentioned by the reporter. Just to be noted, they also said that the American girl had a better porfomince as well, just going by what they said...--Not G. Ivingname (talk) 01:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- I think this page should be reserved for issues with games organization. This includes China human rights, censorship, broadcasting delays, ticketing, pollution, participants' safety... all of these concern the games as a whole. Individual controversies are (IMO) beyond the control of the games organizers and so beyond the scope of this article. In this category I would place age controversies, judging controversies, drugs cheats etc. These belong in pages on individual events but not on this page. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- Or to put it another way: "Is it due to the fact that the games are in Beijing?" If the answer is "no", then it doesn't belong on this page. IMHO. Peter Ballard (talk) 02:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's certainly true that we have a page which is unclear about its remit. However the measure you're proposing doesn't seem to fit the title in any sense. The title doesn't even mention that the games are in Beijing. Apart from that, I suggest that the kind of controversy you would detail under individual events is often more likely to have an enduring legacy on the 2008 Olympic Games overall.
- - Think about the age controversy, for example... if a sufficient weight of evidence emerges to say that one country conspired to falsify their gymnasts' ages, that the IOC were forced to remove one or more awarded medals; the event itself will be close to irrelevant in the ensuing uproar.
- - Similarly, unless a number of drugs-positives pervade a particular sport, I suggest a number of isolated drugs offences will be associated with sport as a whole, with the 2008 Olympics as a whole or the Olympic institution as a whole, rather than a particular sport.
- - Judging controversies may be a storm in a teacup, hardly worthy of a footnote to a particular sport; but if the judging mechanism were found to have been tampered with, the implications rise much higher than the event.
- - (Note: I have just used your examples: I very much hope none of the above ever comes to pass)
- So I tend towards the opposite benchmark to yours (that if it's not related to Beijing, it should be out). I think that being related to Beijing or China is only relevant if an issue also has an inextricable relationship with the organisation, management or institution of the 2008 Olympics itself. Hence, to offer my view:
- - persecution of Christians is not relevant unless they're thrown to the lions as an Olympic Event (^_-)
- - terrorism which cites the Olympics is only worthy of a link to another article if something devastating happens to an Olympic venue itself.
- - Pollution is worthy of some mention (the efforts to reduce it, and the extent of their success) but detail should be in other topics
- - Ticketing is worthy of mention if extent of any problems (or solutions) particularly distinguishes it from other Olympics
- - (And I still think that concerns and controversies merit distinct topics, of which the former is a pretty short record, heavy on links to specific subjects)
China has been cheating in gymnastics by using 14 year old girls , that obviously bears mention here. What is more interesting is : How much has the IOC been helping them cover it up? JeffBurdges (talk) 16:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - When reading most comments in this section, the word "Blog" springs to mind. If Misplaced Pages is used as a Blog, it will become a Blog, be given the credence of a Blog and a second-hand newspaper. Disappointingly, that process is in fact already happening.
Tsuchan (talk) 07:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, we've got wikinews for news stories, but it's also natural for people to "over fill" this article. It can always be trimmed down later. JeffBurdges (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Are Wikinews stories an appropriate reference for this kind of story in an encyclopaedia? If I were researching this subject, the reference I'd be hoping to find is an IOC regulation on the subject. I have to say, my own search for such a regulation has so far been fruitless. Without such a reference, it's really just hear-say, isn't it? Tsuchan (talk) 11:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- WP:SPS specifies that self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, knols, forum postings, and similar sources are largely unacceptable. — C M B J 12:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- Are Wikinews stories an appropriate reference for this kind of story in an encyclopaedia? If I were researching this subject, the reference I'd be hoping to find is an IOC regulation on the subject. I have to say, my own search for such a regulation has so far been fruitless. Without such a reference, it's really just hear-say, isn't it? Tsuchan (talk) 11:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
State training and expectations of Chinese athletes
Even to take the subtitle at face value, this is not a concern or controversy about the China Olympics: it's about the Chinese Olympic team. It's no more relevant to this article than 'High Expectations of Spanish Athletes' would be. On that basis, I suggest this section is removed from the article.
The initial sentence is a value judgement; and its place in this article about controversies makes it a value judgement set against the pressure and expectations placed on athletes of other countries.
"As the host country, China has high expectations, putting immense pressure upon athletes and coaches alike."
The following sentence is not an example of a controversy about the China Olympics (or even about the Olympic team), it introduces the subject of disappointment about an injured athlete:
"Liu Xiang, the defending Olympic champion for the 110 meter hurdles, had pulled out of the heats with an injury."
I cannot see the relevance to this article. If there is a controversy, it can only be about whether he was genuinely injured or not. That would be a sub-subject of the athlete's personal entry in the encyclopaedia, if at all.
If it did have a relevance to this article, the following detail is hopelessly flawed. Just to detail a few points:
There is no citation for this comment:
"Liu's coach had been told by government officials that "if Liu could not win a gold medal in Beijing, all of his previous achievements would become meaningless.""
Every citation in this paragraph is taken from 'The Christian Science Monitor Olympic Glory Blog'. It hardly seems an appropriate reference for an encyclopaedia. And it isn't even well represented: the quotations just don't exist in the article.
The second half of this section talks about 'the Chinese government's training regime in the state academies'. It is opinion and comment, citing human interest stories in the Herald and Tribune and The New York Times newspapers. To be a controversy even about China's treatment of its athletes (which is not this article), it would have to cite one or more comparative studies of the way different countries treat their athletes. Tsuchan (talk) 17:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Murder of American coach's father-in-law
This section is a news article about Crime. It's not about Concerns or Controversies related to the 2008 Summer Olympics. On that basis, I suggest that it is removed from Misplaced Pages (news, not encyclopaedic; Crime not Controversy). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsuchan (talk • contribs) 18:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- Can you be more clear about your concern? Badagnani (talk) 18:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to oblige, but it's difficult to be clearer than the precise comments I've already given: - It is news, it's not encyclopaedic - It is a Crime, this article is about Concerns and Controversy regarding the 2008 Olympics - Hence, the section is not in keeping with the Misplaced Pages guidelines and therefore I believe it should be removed from an article about Concerns and Controversy regarding the 2008 Olympics
Of course, that's my opinion... please feel free to voice any justification for it being a legitimate part of this article.
Tsuchan (talk) 19:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages isn't a compendium of news, and I'm not sure why the Drum Tower attack is here at all. Maybe if there was a Murders during the 2008 Summer Olympics article, yes, but there isn't and very rightfully won't be, and I don't see how its related to Olympics concerns. --Joowwww (talk) 12:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Unless Attack at Beijing Drum Tower during 2008 Olympics is to be revisited by AfD a third time, it should remain mentioned in this article in the form of a short sentence. — C M B J 02:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Suggest a Major Overhaul and Clearout of This Topic
I suggest that this page needs a pruning - probably by about 90%. It has wandered way off-topic, and been annexed as a vehicle for propaganda, news, opinion and comment, and other non-encyclopaedic purposes; as well as extended passages on the subject of other topics, where in fact a "See Also" link would have been justified at most.
I suggest first-of-all, separating relevant content into two pages:
- Concerns
- Controversies
Then think very carefully about what is an encyclopaedic matter of record relating to Concerns about the 2008 Summer Olympics and Controversies about the 2008 Summer Olympics.
For me, the potential controversies pertaining to the 2008 Summer Olympics itself, are these:
- Opening Ceremony
- Empty Seats
- Political Controversy - something along the lines that the following political protests associated themselves to the Beijing 2008 Summer Olympics:
- Tibetan Independence - summary referencing the Torch-carrying protests (link to relevant article)
- Threatened boycotts and head-of-state grandstanding related to Human Rights in China - possible summary of which leaders protested and how (link to relevant article(s))
- China's involvement in Burma - note that Steven Spielberg quit on this topic (link to relevant article)
- Internet Censorship challenged by foreign media (link to relevant article)
It may also be worth making a comparison with controversies previous Olympic Games (for example, figures on the number of positive drug tests in Athens 2004 v. Beijing 2008; ticket touting and on-line ticket fraud, compared to Athens 2008).
On the other hand, I don't see how it's relevant to discuss the Chinese laws on protests during the Olympics, unless the fact is that the law was changed for the Olympics. I haven't seen evidence that it's other than situation normal, except perhaps for the number of people challenging the law and the availability of foreign news crews to report it. It may be an issue, but it's not this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsuchan (talk • contribs) 19:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC) Tsuchan (talk) 19:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- Please sign posts by adding four tildes after your posting, thanks. Badagnani (talk) 19:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- The 2008 Summer Olympics seem to be more controversial than many previous Olympics because they have actually generated controversy. Removing 90 percent of this article (most of it well sourced) will not alter this situation. Badagnani (talk) 19:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- The article is in need of cleanup and NPOV checking, but pruning 90% (or perhaps even a much lower percentage) of the content would not be justifiable. Splitting the article is a very interesting thought, but could introduce new discrepancies and unintended implications when differentiating individual concerns from controversies. — C M B J 03:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I think a review of the guidelines on coatrack articles would be worthwhile. Much of the content of this article seems to be about concerns over China, not concerns over the Games. Please note that I am not taking a position one way or the other regarding the concerns raised in this article. I am not suggesting that none of them are notable, or verifiable, or well-sourced. What I am saying is that this article is in danger of becoming a POV fork containing criticisms of China that cannot be shoehorned into the main Games article. Actual Games-related issues are getting buried as a result. - Eron 03:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Why would it not be justifiable? I'm not saying that 90% of the content should be lost, just that it needs sorting out into a far better structure of topics; needs a tough assessment making of what is encyclopaedic, what is news, what is comment and deal with it accordingly; needs to be far more discerning about references (a reference to --hmm, no, I can't think of a better way to say it-- a reference to rubbish is only better than nothing in the sense that the reader is able to correctly categorise it, given an investment of time). This is an encyclopaedia. It must deal with facts, plainly and unemotionally. It must consider structure - a topic is not a hat stand, still less a cloakroom. Tsuchan (talk) 07:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Tsuchuan, I would like to strongly disagree with your implication that a section on the "Chinese laws on protests during the Olympics" is not relevant to this article. When special protest parks are set up for the duration of the Olympics but nobody is actually allowed to protest in them and moreover, two elderly women who apply for a permit to protest there are arrested, harrassed and threatened with being sent to a labour camp, I think it is definitely an appropriate issue to include in this article. -Paul1337 (talk) 19:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, fair enough. I recognise that the parks were set aside for these Olympics, and on that basis the sub-section is justified. And on reflection, I'm with you that some detail on this particular subject is justified within the article (although I think it remains true that there is no change of law, policy or practice for the Olympics; and it's the consistency rather than the change which is the root of the controversy that is being documented). But where I do think the sub-section extends beyond encyclopaedic remit is in telling the stories of individuals (a journalist's job) rather than framing the facts. Take this text, for example:
"Hunan province business owner Tang Xuecheng disappeared after trying to file for a permit. His friend Ji Sizun, a legal advocate from Fujian province, applied for permits with the intent of protesting for "greater participation of Chinese citizens in political processes, and denounce rampant official corruption and abuses of power,""
- How about something along the lines of "There have been well sourced reports of permit applicants being arrested, disappearing, threatened with a year long term in a re-education camp, "...? That keeps the known facts in the encyclopaedia, and the journalism in the newspapers. That method will also prevent Misplaced Pages from reporting the news. For example, the text "received a one-year non-judicial sentence". Two out of three of the citations cast some doubt as to whether it will be served. Keeping the detail out of the encyclopaedia entry doesn't bring less attention to it. Quite the reverse: if a reader thinks s/he's extracted all the salient detail, s/he's much less likely to recourse the source than if the summary is posted.
Tsuchan (talk) 13:36, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - Thank you for your opinions. Do you have one or more other accounts besides this one, as you imply? I don't think that is permitted. Badagnani (talk) 07:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I made no such implication, I have no other Misplaced Pages account. I have nothing to hide. However, I do think it would be good just to deal with the topics, rather than the life-stories of the contributors. Tsuchan (talk) 16:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- What reasonable grounds are there for suggesting Tsuchan may be a sockpuppet? You should not bite the newbies, be more civil, desist in your innuendos and character assassinations. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- I made no such implication, I have no other Misplaced Pages account. I have nothing to hide. However, I do think it would be good just to deal with the topics, rather than the life-stories of the contributors. Tsuchan (talk) 16:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Please list specifics. The article covers a highly significant topic of great interest around the world, is notable, and largely well sourced. Badagnani (talk) 03:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I will provide a few specific examples. Let's start with the first sentence. "Red China"? Who calls it that anymore? That is highly POV.
- The Protests section is very well sourced, but there is not a whole lot actually there. For example:
- The British Olympic Association (BOA) will require that before leaving for China, British Olympic team members sign an agreement, stating that they "are not to comment on any politically sensitive issues." However, BOA spokesman Graham Newsom stated that the BOA didn't intend to censor athletes, and referred to a rule in the International Olympic Committee charter which states, "No kind of demonstration or political, religious or racial propaganda is permitted in any Olympic sites, venues or other areas."
- What is the point? The BOA told its athletes not to do something... that has been disallowed since 1968, by the IOC.
- The Tibet, Darfur, and Burma sections are not about the Games; they are about political activists who want to use the occasion of the Games to further their agendas. Excellent strategy on their part and one that should be noted - in the appropriate articles.
- The Persecution of Christians section doesn't even mention the Olympics until the third paragraph.
- Algae... locusts... oil slicks... none of which appear to have affected the Games. (Or in the case of the locusts, even had anything to do with it.
- There is good and useful content about the Games in this article. But there are a lot of coats hanging on it as well. - Eron 03:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- The opening statement was highly inappropriate, and has been removed until the intro can be rewritten. Tibetan independence is a subject that most (irregardless of personal disposition) would agree irrefutably influenced the games. The section regarding persecution of Christians does not currently say the word Olympics until the third paragraph, but the statements throughout the section all refer to events that are specific to the Olympics. The environmental issues such as air pollution and algae have had a wide variety of related of related effects. I can agree that the article is in need of serious style and tone improvements, but the topics themselves mostly seem to pertain to the Olympics at this point. Much of the content could also be improved with clear and neutral summarization, or more subtle inclusion. — C M B J 05:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - "Red China" should not be used in this article. I agree that it should be replaced with a neutral term. Badagnani (talk) 03:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - I agree that the opening statement can be made more accurate, factual, and NPOV. Badagnani (talk) 05:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The article is a thorough mess, and I thought the comments of the talk page were indicative of a consensus. Furthermore, I see little need to have elaborate coatrack sections when the related topics are clearly linked to. So, unless anyone can demonstrate how these subjects which I removed have anything but a tangential relation to the games, they should remain deleted. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I will certainly join your consensus. Tsuchan (talk) 07:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the need for an overhaul. Things like Darfur, human rights and communism are concerns about China, not the Olympics. I recognise that they are linked ever so slightly to the games, but should not be given entire sections. --Joowwww (talk) 16:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Massive blanking
Please undo this massive blanking, as without consensus it is considered disruptive. Thank you. Badagnani (talk) 05:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
More massive blanking
Please undo this massive blanking, as without consensus it is considered disruptive. Thank you. Further, as noted earlier, the edit replaced proper grammar with improper grammar. The sentence "The song Ode to the Motherland was recorded beforehand by another young girl, Yang Peiyi," was replaced by "The song Ode to the Motherland was pre-recorded by another Yang Peiyi." The new, improper version implies that there are two Yang Peiyis. Please, I am asking you in all good faith to carefully consider your edits and develop consensus before implementing them. This is particularly important at articles that are controversial. Badagnani (talk) 05:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I feel obliged to defend myself now in the strongest possible terms: I have reverted the last entry posted here by Badagnani as an unacceptable personal attack. I thought I had clearly explained the basis of my removal of some blocks of text both in my edit summary and here, and my views were apparently in line with some fellow editors on this talk page. I stand by my assertion that the article was a complete mess in desperate need of cleanup. Please note that it was not I who initiated this debate, nor was I the one who tagged the article. To use my edit to the sentence on Ode to the Motherland to complain about my removal of coatracks and blatant political bias wreaks of the same pathethic attempts at vilification I experienced at the hands of the abovementioned user (and his cohort) in another article. It was a simple problem which he could have fixed himself. I will not stand for being hunted like a witch. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- With all due respect to your excellent contributions to Misplaced Pages, the massive blanking without first seeking and obtaining consensus, was ill-considered. Please restore that text, then we can discuss in a thoughtful and considered manner. Regarding the grammatical error you introduced twice, you were alerted to this after the first instance, yet you chose to revert, returning to the erroneous version. This is not in dispute. The main issue, however, is the manner of editing without first thoughtfully considering and gaining consensus, of which the revert was simply an indicator. Badagnani (talk) 06:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- In case you haven't noticed, you seem to be the only one not going with the flow here. I would respectfully point out that you don't own the article. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- That is an excellent point, and in fact it's why we've been going over, carefully, thoughtfully, and thoroughly, each section that is in question, discussing it, then altering that section as consensus develops. You can see how this consensus manner of deliberative editing, which is a cornerstone of our Misplaced Pages practice, has been operating, just above. It would be wonderful if you would join us. To show your good faith, it would be good if you would restore the enormous areas of text you blanked earlier today, (on your *own*) without first seeking nor gaining consensus here. Badagnani (talk) 06:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I am the contributor responsible for placing all three cleanup tags on the article. There has not been a consensus for removal of entire sections. In fact, the only related editorial concerns have been raised by single user on an account that currently has zero contributions in the mainspace. — C M B J 06:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I have, as you say, made no contributions in the main space. It would be inappropriate for me to do so until I'm much more familiar with Misplaced Pages tools and editorial process. However, I have done my best to suggest a structure, and give reasoned and specific feedback. I ask you to judge my feedback on the basis of what I have written, not where I have written it. I suggest that it takes no less investment in time to write to this page than the main space. Tsuchan (talk) 07:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Consensus building is a very important function, and I did not in any way intend to imply that contributions to the talk page were of lesser value than contributions to the page itself. I was merely wary of sockpuppetry, a malicious practice in which a user controls multiple accounts to push a particular agenda, especially on controversial topics. If you are genuinely a new user, please accept my sincere apologies; and welcome to Misplaced Pages. — C M B J 07:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- That may be the case of the lack of mainspace contributions, but I still believe the comments valid, and he/she was not the only one to express concerns of coat-racking. I went ahead, boldly but in good faith. I feel that the sections which I removed for just those reasons should best be left deleted because they are irrelevant, and need to be completely re-written it so that its is relevant. I believe we could recreate, rather than attempting to make a sow's purse out of a pig's ear. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Kindly restore the very large areas of text you blanked earlier today, then we'll have a productive discussion. Thank you for this consideration. Badagnani (talk) 07:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I try consciously not to put in text which is not demonstrably and directly relevant to any article I may be editing, especially as it appears to introduce a material bias to an article. In my view, your request violates that principle. I may try and restore some of the material if I find a relevant way of introducing any of the elements. Thank you for your understanding in the meantime. Ohconfucius (talk) 09:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Coarsely flagged, but otherwise verbatim copies of the removed sections China's involvement in Darfur China's involvement in Darfur See also: War in Darfur 
Protests against China's role in the Darfur conflict. Activists
working to address the ongoing violence in Darfur, Sudan, have called for pressure to be exerted on China because of their financial and diplomatic support for Omar al-Bashir, who is responsible for the Sudanese government's proxy militias. These advocates,which include actress Mia Farrow, NBA athlete Ira Newble, and Sudan researcher Eric Reeves,haveorganized a global advocacy campaigncalled Olympic Dream for Darfur.Some have begun to refer tothe Beijing Olympics as the "Genocide Olympics"as noted in The China Post as a way of connecting Beijing's close political and economic ties to the Sudanese regime.The Chinese government, in turn, has denounced the activists for"politicising"the Olympics and outlined its plans to help the Sudanese economy.China's involvement in Burma China's involvement in Burma See also: Sino-Burmese relations Since China has close economic and military ties with Burma, it is seen as a major lever against the repressive regime in Burma. Many have also criticized China's opposition of sanctions against Burma's military rulers, who used force against anti-government protesters in 2007. The Olympics are considered a way to motivate China to take a firm stance against human rights violations in Burma.On September 28, 2007, the Nobel Peace Prize laureate Desmond Tutu
urged China to intervene in the ongoing protests in Myanmar. Tutusaid that if China did not take a stance against the military rulers in Burma, he would "join a campaign to boycott the Beijing Olympics".Persecution of Christians in China Persecution of Christians Further information: Christianity in China There is growing controversy over the persecution of Christians in China.Three American protesters were deported from China after a demonstration at Tiananmen Square,and eight Dutch Christians were stopped after attempting to sing in chorus.An American pastor also protested the games by painting slogans on the walls of two Beijing hotel rooms.Chinese House Church Alliance president Zhang Mingxuan said that "the crackdown on underground churches so far this year is much more intense than the past few years put together because of the Olympic Games."
He alleged that prior to the Olympics on July 5, his church was forced to be closed down after a police order, and that the landlord of the church had been told to stop renting the building to the church, or else have his property documents confiscated.In an open letter to the international community, he requested prayer for China and for the success of the Beijing Olympics, and for freedom of religion in China. On August 4, Zhang Mingxuan, his wife Xie Fenlang, and co-pastor Wu Jiang He were detained shortly after BBC journalist John Simpson attempted to interview him.Hong Kong Bishop John Tong Hon elucidated that his acceptance of the invitation to participate in the Opening Ceremony was with ambivalence, commenting that “while the leaders of the six largest religions in Hong Kong were invited to Beijing, only in the case of the Catholic Church was an invitation not sent to the highest authority. I am embarrassed because our government ignored Cardinal Zen and invited me instead.” He elaborated on his hopes that China's government will someday give “the same importance to greater religious and social freedom that it had in cleaning up Beijing's pollution in anticipation of the games,” and that “the five Olympic rings are known throughout the world,” and “ China would give the same importance to the five interconnected aspects of democracy, human rights, the rule of law, justice and peace.”
He went on to say that “the Olympic Games show the progress of China,” and that “we Christians underscore the spiritual development more. With St. Paul, we like to compare our spiritual journey with a race towards the goal ‘in order to reach the prize that God has prepared for us in Christ Jesus’.”Pope Benedict XVI
urged China to be open to Christianity, andsaid that he hoped the Olympic Games would offer an example of coexistenceamong people from different countries.
U.S. President George W. Bush at the Three-Self Patriotic Kuanjie Church While in Beijing, George W. Bush attended the
state-backedThree-Self Patriotic Kuanjie Church on August 10.Bush said, "You know, it just goes to show that God is universal, and God is love, and no state, man or woman should fear the influence of loving religion," hinting at his support for the worshipers there.A Chinese man,Hua Huiqiattempted to bicycle to the service and was stopped and threatened by police,who also confiscated his Bible.Hua says police based the detainment on concerns for Bush's security. However, the police guarding Hua fell asleep and he escaped and went into hiding.Later, regular worshipers at the church said that the service was staged.According totheChina Aid Association (CAA), Chinese authorities removed regular members and allegedly put "security people, political workers and people trained by them to pose as believers" in their place.Additional abstract Darfur Event Source Human rights campaign targets Olympic sponsors, labels games as “Genocide Olympics” BW, NYT American film director Steven Spielberg resigns as artistic adviser to the 2008 Summer Olympics NYT China changes Sudan policies following Olympic pressure on Darfur conflict IHT, AP China rejects Darfur-Olympics link WT 2006 American gold medalist Joey Cheek's visa is revoked AP Burma Event Source The Beijing Olympics begin on the anniversary of the 8888 Uprising, exactly 20 years later AFP Myanmar pro-democracy activists call for Olympic boycott AP, AsiaNews China dissuades proposed Myanmar boycott AP, AP, WP Christians Event Source Hong Kong bishop John Tong Hon is invited to the opening ceremony instead of Joseph Zen Ze-kiun CNA, CNS Christian human rights NGOs report a significant increase of persecution as Olympics approach CSW American pastor lampoons Beijing hotel rooms AP See above. — C M B J 03:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Just as a contribution to the consensus building process: I've re-read the article and the removed elements. Although there's a long way to go, I think the removal of the sections above has made a big improvement to the page. Tsuchan (talk) 19:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Even more massive blanking
See . Badagnani (talk) 05:54, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- It appears that those sections were merged with the corresponding articles. — C M B J 07:50, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- These are event-specific, and belong elsewhere. Where have they gone? see edit summaries. Ohconfucius (talk) 08:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
This pattern of behavior of unilateral blanking on a massive scale, established at other articles and brought here (see above for evidence) is simply not permissible at our project. Please utilize discussion and generate consensus before blanking massively. Badagnani (talk) 08:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- Andersson, Hilary (2008-07-13). "China 'is fuelling war in Darfur'". BBC News. BBC. Retrieved 2008-07-13.
- Kempe, Frederick (2007-05-27). "China hopes to avoid 'genocide Olympics'". Bloomberg L.P. China Post. Retrieved 2007-05-30.
- "China's Games". The Washington Post. The Washington Post Company. 2007-05-29. Retrieved 2007-05-30.
- Ennis, Darren (2007-09-27). "World Pressures China to Intervene in Myanmar; Beijing Olympics Used as Leverage". ABC News. American Broadcasting Company. Retrieved 2008-08-09.
- Persson, Annika (2007-09-28). "Desmond Tutu vädjar till Burmas ledare". Dagens Nyheter. Bonnier. Retrieved 2008-08-09.
- "4 Winds Allows Olympic Testimonies Underground -- China is Hypocritical in Treatment of Christians on the Streets" (Press release). ChristianNewsWire. 2008-08-06. Retrieved 2008-08-08.
- King, Robert (2008-08-08). "Olympics raises issue of religious freedom". The Indianapolis Star. Gannett Company. Retrieved 2008-08-08.
- Colson, Chuck (2008-08-03). "Bush, China, and the Olympics". BreakPoint. The Christian Post. Retrieved 2008-08-08.
- Blanchard, Ben (2008-08-07). "Beijing police stop protest by U.S. Christians". Reuters. Retrieved 2008-08-08.
- Schou, Solvej (2008-08-08). "Protesters describe removal from Tiananmen Square". Associated Press. Google News. Retrieved 2008-08-08.
{{cite news}}: Unknown parameter|coauthors=ignored (|author=suggested) (help) - "U.S. Demonstrators Taken From Tiananmen Square". Associated Press. YouTube. 2008-08-07. Retrieved 2008-08-08.
- "Three Protesters Dragged Away From Tiananmen Square". The Epoch Times. 2008-08-08. Retrieved 2008-08-08.
- "American protester paints Beijing hotel rooms". 2008-08-07. Retrieved 2008-08-11.
- ^ Kwok, Kristine (2008-07-20). "A question of faith". South China Morning Post. Retrieved 2008-08-11.
- "China -- Mixed Signals; Persecution of House Church Christians Taking Place Despite Some Positive Olympic Developments". Open Doors USA. 2008-07-28. Retrieved 2008-08-11.
{{cite web}}: Unknown parameter|Publisher=ignored (|publisher=suggested) (help) - Mingxuan, Zhang (2008-02-18). "WE WANT THE OLYMPICS, BUT WE WANT LOVE AND JUSTICE MORE". Retrieved 2008-08-11.
- "President of Chinese House Church Alliance Issues Open Letter to the International Community". China Aid. 2008-02-18. Retrieved 2008-08-11.
- "HOUSE CHURCH PASTOR DETAINED". Compass Direct News. 2008-08-07. Retrieved 2008-08-11.
- Qin Yue & Li Mingcai (2008-08-07). "Beijing Intensifies Suppression of House Churches Ahead of Olympics". Sound of Hope Radio. Epoch Times. Retrieved 2008-08-11.
- "Chinese bishop explains reasons for participating in Olympic opening ceremonies". Catholic News Agency. 2008-08-08. Retrieved 2008-08-10.
- "China snubs Zen, invites deputy". The Standard. 2008-08-08. Retrieved 2008-08-10.
- "Hong Kong bishop says he has mixed feelings about attending Olympics". Catholic News Service. 2008-08-07. Retrieved 2008-08-11.
- "Bishops From Hong Kong, Macau Invited To Beijing Olympics' Opening". Union of Catholic Asian News. 2008-06-13. Retrieved 2008-08-11.
- Petroff, Daniela (2008-08-07). "Pope Benedict tells China: open up to Christianity". Associated Press. Google News. Retrieved 2008-08-08.
- "Beijing Olympics: George W Bush speaks out for China's Christians". Guardian. 2008-08-10. Retrieved 2008-08-12.
- Johnson, Tim (2008-08-10). "Chinese Christian in hiding after seeking to pray with Bush". Kansas City Star. Retrieved 2008-08-12.
- Ireland, Michael (2008-08-10). "House Church Pastor Hua Huiqi Arrested and Escapes from Police Custody as President Bush Visits Officially-Staged Church Service". ASSIST News Service (ANS). Retrieved 2008-08-12.
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