Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:56, 18 August 2005

Archive:

• Talk:Nick Adams/Archive 1

Article dispute notice

• Please take note that I have inserted a dispute notice regarding text placed by User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. in this article as well as that of Elvis Presley. Because the comments in the two articles are interconnected, the reason for the dispute notices is being stated first on Talk:Elvis Presley# Article dispute notice and will subsequently be dealt with in this article. Ted Wilkes 15:09, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Sources problem

• The Dee Presley manuscript doesn't appear to have ever been published, nor do excerpts relevant to this article appear to ever have been published in a tabloid as previously asserted.

This is not true, as the National Enquirer published a summary of the accusations by Dee Presley. Her claims have been discussed in books, articles and on webpages. Here are some excerpts from a discussion at "TCB-World, where Elvis fans meet":

Why Elvis didn't say bye bye to Colonel???

Look i refuse to believe what i am about to say, plus this is how rumors start, but...According to Dee (and apparently she saw it so she says) that she saw E having affairs with guys...stuned, man i was when i read that, and still i refuse to believe it, but apparently he and Nick Adams had a thing going, and this may be the reason why E never said good bye to the cigar muncher, and the one arm bandit, man has the colonel got a lot to answer for, i am not going to start a bitch here, but i have a lot of resentment for the whole crowd that was around him (although i do have a lot of respect for Red) but who knows, why he did not let the Colonel go, this is what i read on some web site, where Dee had been interviewed, mind you this is like late 90's so a lot of time has gone by, and you can now say what ever you like about the man, he is not here to defend himself, but then again if things had been different he would still be here...What a loss...

Dee Stanley appeared on the Geraldo show in America a few years ago claiming that Elvis and his mother had been lovers. It was the most sickening claim that has ever been made against Elvis. She appeared on the show with the owner of the National Enquirer who had run the story. She stated that the relationship between Elvis and Gladys had been incestuous and talked about Gladys having a drink problem because she couldn`t deal with it. She stated that a member of staff at Graceland had told her that she had seen them getting out of bed and that she knew something had happened and also that Vernon had told her about it and how he had always been an outsider in his own family. ... JD Sumner ... said she even claimed he was gay in the book. ...

See are also critical remarks by Ann-Margret concerning Dee Presley's claims that Elvis had homosexual relationships with men.

• The 1972 Sal Mineo interview, hearsay about hearsay, appears to be the only source for all of the subsequent "Nick Adams was gay" rumours that have been published. The problems with the Mineo interview are given at Talk:James Dean.

Given that the Mineo interview is the only documented source for this rumour, and that Mineo himself seemed to downplay the credibility of it seconds later, I strongly suggest that any references to the "Nick Adams was gay" rumour be deleted from the article. Given my past informal mediation with 141, I'll await consensus. Wyss 18:45, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, there are several independent sources which prove that Adams was gay. Adams frequently appears on lists of famous gay people. See or

For Natalie Wood and the gay men in Hollywood, including Nick Adams, see Gavin Lambert, Natalie Wood: A Life. See these reviews:

In Hollywood Gays, author Boze Hadleigh writes that the diminutive yet reputedly well-hung actor Nick Adams may have "hustled while looking for acting jobs in the 1950s." See

It is also suggested that Adams's friend James Dean was gay. See Another internet source says:

The debate about Dean's sexuality rages passionately. He told a friend, "I've had my cock sucked by five of the biggest names in Hollywood...". He also claimed to have worked, with his friend Nick Adams, as a street hustler when he first arrived in Hollywood. When asked if he was gay, he replied, "Well, I'm certainly not going through life with one hand tied behind my back". See

Following the above, and 141's stated withdrawl from the discussion (as posted at Talk:Elvis Presley) I'll remove the disputed material from this article. Wyss 19:52, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Removal of dispute notice: Dispute notices must remain until the various issues have been dealt with. As I need to document them for precise clarification on the talk page, I have reverted this back to the point where I had inserted the dispute notice. The issues on this article with respect to certain edits need to be dealt with as I stated when I inserted the dispute notice. Once done, then we can always fix this up. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 02:31, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: - In his quest to make Elvis gay,User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. quoted gossip writer Gavin Lambert as referring to Nick Adams as gay in his book on Natalie Wood. Note that The Guardian newspaper also opens their comments on Gavin Lambert's book on Natalie Wood by reminding readers it is high-class gossip. As such no encyclopedia would quote from it but I find it interesting that while there is a direct quote about Nick Adams asserted to be from the book, User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. neglected to state the quote was made as offhand gossip without facts of any kind and with respect to Presley, did not mention the following from page 119:

• "Nick Adams, who happened to be in New York that week, had recently managed to ingratiate himself with Elvis Presley. He told Natalie (Wood) that the singer wanted to know if he might ask his favorite actress for a date. "Natalie was all shook up after Presley called and asked her to go out with him when she got back to Los Angeles"

Lambert's biography was highly praised by Natalie Wood's daughter, Natasha Gregson Wagner. She calls Lambert's book "a wonderful biography on my Mom ... that we are all involved with - everybody that knew my Mom and was close to her - and that will really be the one I hope everyone reads. It will be the definitive biography on my Mother." In this biography, the author clearly stated that Nick Adams was Wood's first date with a Hollywood gay. Lambert, himself a homosexual living in Hollywood, certainly knew that Adams was gay.

(More to come on various disputed text upon completion of the interconnected Elvis Presley page as stated above.) Thanks. Ted Wilkes 02:55, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

It's become rather plain Lambert's passing reference to Adams (as gay) was the result of his own sloppy research (or lack) and derives only from a rumour started by the Mineo interview in 1972. There is no basis for it, and including the reference in an encyclopedia article would be misleading IMO. Yes, it's possible NA told Mineo he'd had an affair with Dean, I've dealt with that in the James Dean article. I'm ready to remove the reference from this one. Wyss 13:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Lambert himself was a homosexual and part the gay circles in Hollywood. If he says that Adams was gay, then it must be true.

Disputed text:

The disputed text will be dealt with in a step-by-step process as per my comments above and in conjunction with the disputed text as per Talk:Elvis Presley#Article dispute notice

THE ARTICLE STATES:

• In the quest to make Elvis gay, User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. quoted the following statement verbatim made by User:Wyss from the Talk page User:Wyss archived yesterday.:
  • "Her first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams... "

RESPONSE:

• Note that The Guardian newspaper opens their comments on the Gavin Lambert book on Natalie Wood by reminding readers it is "high-class gossip." Newspapers do review gossip books, but no Encyclopedia ever references them. However, I find it interesting that while there is a direct quote about Nick Adams asserted to be from the book, neither User:Wyss nor User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. bothered to state that the quote was made as offhand gossip without facts of any kind and with respect to Elvis Presley, did not mention the following from page 119:

Correction, I have referred to this as a passing remark many, many times. Wyss 16:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• "Nick Adams, who happened to be in New York that week, had recently managed to ingratiate himself with Elvis Presley. He told Natalie (Wood) that the singer wanted to know if he might ask his favorite actress for a date. "Natalie was all shook up after Presley called and asked her to go out with him when she got back to Los Angeles" -- From page 119 of Natalie Wood: A Life (2004) by Gavin Lambert

Fine. This is a another quote from the book. It proves that Adams was keenly interested to be a close friend to Elvis, and that Natalie Wood was Elvis's favorite actress.

THE ARTICLE FURTHER STATES:

• "Boze Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays (1996) and William J. Mann's Behind the Screen: How Gays and Lesbians Shaped Hollywood 1910-1969 (2001), claim that before his success as an actor Adams was a male prostitute catering to men. This is related to similar rumours about James Dean who is claimed to have been involved in this with Adams."

RESPONSE:

• First, the last line in this paragraph is POV and rumor which is not acceptable in Misplaced Pages. This sentence is only there to aid the fabrication that Adams was gay.

These rumors exist.

Correction, it is acceptable to mention published rumours in Misplaced Pages, if only to debunk them. Wyss 16:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

What's wrong with including this stuff in the "Rumors" section?

Please quote the Misplaced Pages:Policy that states we can quote rumors because it contradicts Misplaced Pages:The perfect article that, among other things, states :

reflects expert knowledge; fact-based and rooted in sound scholarly and logical principles.

There are independent sources supporting these rumors.

• Second, The claim as to a statement about Nick Adams in the book: Behind the Screen: How Gays and Lesbians Shaped Hollywood, 1910-1969 by William J. Mann is a total fabrication, Nick Adams is not listed in the Index

O.K. The reference to this source should be deleted. However, there are several other sources supporting the fact that Adams was gay.

Given the above book reference fabrication, the claim as to a statement about Nick Adams in the book: Hollywood Gays (1996) by Boze Hadleigh is dubious. The index lists Adams once on page 250 but that same index lists dozens of other heterosexual people. Nonetheless, quoting a book such as this is not acceptable at Misplaced Pages when peer reviews call it gossip and cocktail-party repartee and whose choice of subjects are conveniently for legal purposes, all dead. And, another says: Hadleigh's work is somewhat suspect.

Nevertheless, I agree that unsupported gossip like this is in effect unacceptable as a source for the article's narrative. Wyss 16:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

The Publishers Weekly review said:

• Hadleigh who's evidently taking up where the great gossip columnists of yesteryear left off.
• There's nothing very surprising about his choice of subjects--Paul Lynde, Liberace, Randolph Scott, et al.--all of whom, conveniently for legal purposes, are deceased.
• Readers will find much cocktail-party repartee here and will relish the references to other stars of dubious sexual orientation.

From Library Journal:

• Like his earlier volumes, Hadleigh's work is somewhat suspect. He claims that for most of these interviews, he was not allowed to tape record or take notes, and frequently the questions seem stiltedly reconstructed.

- Ted Wilkes 15:11, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Although we may differ on minor items of detail, I endorse this analysis 100%. Wyss 16:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

You should also cite the positive passages of these and other reviews of Hadleigh's book:

"A series of 10 interviews with dramatic actors, romantic heros, comedians, and performers, three of whom died of AIDS; all prominent in the Hollywood/entertainment scene. The interviews are by turns frank, and depending on the comfort level of the interviewee, evasive and suggestive. Prominent features of the interviews include Hollywood's various constructions of masculinity, efforts to mask gay realities, studio response to homosexuality, and discussion of gay relationships. Many interviews include commentary on Hollywood figures not themselves in this collection. Each interview is preceded by a biographical sketch including relationship information and usually comments by friends and acquaintances. Index to persons mentioned in the interviews concludes the work." (Gays and Lesbians: Reference and Bibliographical Resources Annotated")

"In this collection of interviews, each preceded by a chatty introduction, that Hadleigh has conducted over the years with 10 Hollywood stars, the author continues his probing of the ever-popular topic of the sexual proclivities of Hollywood actors. There's nothing very surprising about his choice of subjects--Paul Lynde, Liberace, Randolph Scott, et al.--all of whom, conveniently for legal purposes, are deceased. And though hearing about these stars in their own words often proves entertaining, most of the book's gay readership will find little here they haven't heard before. Two exceptions are the touching interview with producer David Lewis, who talks freely about his longtime companion, James Whale (director of the classic 1931 Frankenstein and of The Invisible Man), who committed suicide in 1957; and the talk with William Haines, whose career was destroyed by Louis B. Mayer after he was caught with another man in his cot at a YMCA. The book's style is suitably straightforward, though Hadleigh's banter often verges on the cute or leering. Readers will find much cocktail-party repartee here and will relish the references to other stars of dubious sexual orientation." (Publishers Weekly)

"Hadleigh ... seeks to provide firsthand reports. An entertainment journalist since the 1960s, he conducted volumes of off-the-record interviews with celebrities reputed to be gay or bisexual such as Cary Grant, Paul Lynde, and Anthony Perkins, as well as less well-remembered actors like Randolph Scott and William Haines. In these interviews, often given only with the understanding that they would not be published during the star's life, Hadleigh attempts to get normally secretive actors to speak about their sexual lives. .... Cary Grant and Anthony Perkins ... proffer revelations about co-workers and peers. Like his earlier volumes Conversations with My Elders (St. Martin's, 1988) and Lesbians in Hollywood (Baricade, 1994), Hadleigh's work is somewhat suspect. He claims that for most of these interviews, he was not allowed to tape record or take notes, and frequently the questions seem stiltedly reconstructed. Still, the interviews are highly entertaining and provide an important, mostly undocumented view of the film industry's social history. Recommended for both general readers looking for dish and scholars of gay history and film studies." (Library Journal)

THE ARTICLE FURTHER STATES:

• 1) In 1972, gay actor Sal Mineo said Adams told him he had an affair with James Dean (although moments later Mineo may have hinted that many of these stories about Hollywood gays were exaggerated).

RESPONSE to 1):

• This is hearsay and not acceptable in Misplaced Pages under any circumstances. Ted Wilkes 12:04, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Note: A half dozen "hearsay" interviews from a half dozen different sources, all accepted by historical peer review because of the participants' reputations and the historical consistancy of their remarks, would generate citable and workable secondary sources. On the other hand, a single isolated interview such as this one, given both the problematic nature of its content, lack of detail or historical support and the rather discredited reputation of the author who published it, make it meaningless as a source and therefore unacceptable. So I agree with the conclusion and endorse it, but get there in a slightly different way. Wyss 14:28, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Are you able to present peer-reviewed sources concerning the life of Nick Adams? I am sure, the sources you have used are all tabloid publications.

• 2) Given Adams' widely known (and sometimes salaried) friendship with Elvis Presley, David Bret's book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2002) even claims Elvis Presley was intimate with Adams, matching similar claims by Elvis's stepmother Dee Presley. However, there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to the actor to support any rumours that Adams was homosexual.

RESPONSE to 2):

• The first sentence is illiterate and friendship has nothing to do with homosexuality. Before quoting any source, the person inserting it into the article must satisfy themselves as to the academic/journalistic integrity of the source. Bret's book was never subjected to peer reviews, a fundamental requirement for insertion into wikipedia. (See also above comments from a peer review on a gossip book by writer Boze Hadleigh and The Guardian warnings about Gavin Lambert's gossip book -- refer also to Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Dubious sources). Even though User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. substantially watered down the Misplaced Pages article on David Bret, it nonetheless still shows he is a gossip writer with unknown academic credentials noted for a lack of research and numerous factual errors in his books. Misplaced Pages does not publish gossip or reference such unreliable sources. The same thing applies to quoting Dee Presley. (See: Talk:Elvis Presley) Adding, "however there are no court records, contemporary letters etc. is improper and a word game. That is like saying "John Doe" is a pedophile but there are no court records, contemporary letters etc. Ted Wilkes 12:24, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Query: Are there any authors writing on Hollywood stars who are not gossip book writers?

Aside from claims of illiteracy, I endorse this summary. Wyss 13:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)