Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:07, 15 March 2008

Steppe vs Depression

Opinions

I suggest to move this to Balti depression, as no plane exists there.:Dc76\ 16:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh really? May be no river Prut and Dnister exist either?--Moldopodo (talk) 00:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo

I agree with Dc. It's a depression. --Ungurul (talk) 19:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Please provide valid references for this term, if you want to rename. `'Míkka>t 08:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

A steppe is a depression. It's the English name for the slavic origin steppe.--Ungurul (talk) 20:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

No it is not. `'Míkka>t 04:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure? Because I read that:

A depression is a sunken area, of any size, occurring in the ground or any other other surface: Depression (geology), a sunken landform This is the proper English term and not steppe. --Ungurul (talk) 12:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

So what? You wrote "A steppe is a depression" It is false. `'Míkka>t 22:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

All right, if it's false then at Bălţi is not the case for steppe because steppe is "an arid land with xerophilous vegetation found usually in regions of extreme temperature range and loess soil" (by Miriam-Webster definition). That's not the case of "Bălţi area" which may be moved to depression as Dc suggested.--Ungurul (talk) 15:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Arguments and sources

• As of now, no argument was brought that Balti depression exists or something was written on it. However, as you can see on the Talk:Balti steppe the overwhelming number of official sources, including national state authorities of Moldova as well as international organisations and other scientific research reports, indicates well that there was and still is Balti steppe. Moreover, Balti steppe (without diacritics) is the proper term used in English. (in Moldavian it is Stepa Bălţului, so the term Bălţi Steppe means really next to nothing and is wrong).

• User:Dc76 lied when he said that Britannica does not have a proper article on Balti steppe.(Dc76 said on Balti talk page Note, that Britannica, which is the only Moldopodo's serious argument, does not have a separate article on that. Just one word in the article about the city, obviously copied from some Soviet book. They made the mistake to assume that everything there is in good faith. :Dc76\talk 15:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC)). Britannica Encyclopedia does have a separate article on Balti steppe, and here it is. More sources can be found in my unblock request, whose copy you will find just below:

• reverts to remove simple and obvious vandalism, such as graffiti or page blanking – this exception applies only to the most simple and obvious vandalism, the kind that is immediately apparent to anyone reviewing the last edit. It is not sufficient if the vandalism is simply apparent to those contributing to the article, those familiar with the subject matter, or those removing the vandalism itself. (For other, less obvious forms of vandalism, please see Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism or Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents); In the present case, User Ungurul (just as User Dc76) never tried to reach consensus or to prove whatsoever, they just simply pushed through their unjustified personal opinion, without any single reference to a verifiable source, nor any other type of explication (talk page is empty), which is moreover, their personal invention called 'Balti depression'. How can you reach any consensus or any discussion if the person is not writing anything on the talk page. The only thing Dc76 wrote on the talk page (Balti steppe does not exist, that's why it will br moved to Balti depression). Please, have a look at just some randomly googled and selected links I have provided on the Balti steppe talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Balti_steppe), check also references and link on the last version of Balti steppe article itself, as edited by myself last time (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Balti_steppe&oldid=179776522). User Ungurul. nor User Dc76 had not even tried to present any proof on the talk page. That's why it is mere vandalism and that's why the 3RR rule should not apply to me in this case. User Ungurul has edited much more than myself and violated 3RR much more times. Even if you consider my edits as "reverts", please check attentively, as I was continuing to write portions of the article this morning, user Ungurul kept deleting it and renaming it in the same time. These were not proper reverts from my side as I was continuously adding new text, pictures, links, etc... Also, Balti steppe is a widely known and studied gegraphic phenomenon, it is an established name for grassland type in Moldova. To the contrary Balti depression simply does not exist and the first time I saw this was from User Dc76. I also understad why no justification or attempt to find consensus was found on the Balti steppe talk page. It simply because there is nothing to prove it (google 'balti depression' and you will find 0 results pertaining to the topic). Not only the term is inexistent, the geographic phenomenon of Balti depression is inexistent as well. Look now at Balti steppe talk page, where I provided a random selection of available on internet references to Balti steppe, check also references on the Balti steppe article itself(http://www.biotica-moldova.org/ECO-NET/part6-2-2.htm) and and Britannica Encyclopedia (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9012051/Balti), but also: Scientific Ph. D. Research dated 2006 on Fertility of Chernozem in Balti Steppe (Beltskaya Steppe/Бельцкая степь in Russian)(http://www.cnaa.acad.md/files/theses/2006/5617/stanislav_stadnic_abstract_ru.pdf), press article in the major Moldavian newspaper (http://www.nm.md/daily/article/2003/06/03/0000.html), travel company site(http://www.spectrumtravel.md/eng/country.php?c=3&cid=13), Draft Assessment Report for establishing a national environment and natural resource information network compatible with the UNEP/GRID (http://enrin.grida.no/htmls/moldova/md_assm.htm), Beltsy Steppe(http://www.justmaps.org/flags/europe/moldova.asp), Belcy Steppe in Columbia Encyclopedia 2007 sixth edition, link to European Commission mentioning Balti Steppe (http://www.coe.int/t/e/cultural_co-operation/environment/nature_and_biological_diversity/ecological_networks/the_emerald_network/Pilot_project_Moldova.asp), National Council for Accreditation and Attestation www.cnaa.acad.md

(http://www.cnaa.acad.md/en/thesis/5617/), Ministry of Environment and Territorial Arrangement (http://enrin.grida.no/biodiv/biodiv/national/moldova/Biodiv.htm) etc. etc... Balti steppe article is properly sourced. Have you found any source for Balti depression? This is why the 3RR should not apply to me, or rather apply, but with its exception. User Ungurul clearly violated the 3RR and this more than once, bringing all vandalism to the article. Please tell me why did you not unblock me taking in consideration the disruptive vandalsising editing undertaken by User:Ungurul, as suggested initially by User:Dc76, and why if you intend to keep me blocked, why was I blocked for one week and User:Ungurul for 24 hours. I would also like to check users for socket pupetting User:Bonaparte, User:Ungurul (uses exact same agressive style, does not listen to arguments and does not provide any sources, edits exclusively on Romania and Moldavia related topics), Utilisateur:William_Pedros (on French speaking Misplaced Pages http://fr.wikipedia.org/Utilisateur:William_Pedros) (exact same style, calling me right off "vandal"), User: 89.185.33.40 (exact same editing style, calling my sourced edits "vandalism") and User:Dc76 (initiator of the page move); also User: 89.185.33.40 used exact same language as Dc76: "pushing POV, bordering vandalism, and edited only on Romania and Moldova related articles, namely to make sure that Dc76's edits or ideas are brought back. --Moldopodo (talk) 16:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo

It's a steppe

As the dictionary definitions below make clear, a steppe is a vast treeless plain while a depression is a sunken area or hollow. By these definitions, the subject of this article is clearly a steppe and has been described as such by the various sources actually named in the article (de Lannoy in 1421, King Reihersdorf in the 1600's, Laxman and Arsenyev in the 20th century). While the steppe no doubt cotnains hollows and sunken landforms, these do not describe the whole.

A steppe:

• " a depressed or sunken place or part; an area lower than the surrounding surface. " - dictionary.com
• "An area that is sunk below its surroundings; a hollow. " - American Heritage Dictionary
• "a sunken or depressed geological formation" =- WordNet, Princeton University.

Euryalus (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Further links on Balti steppe

www.turism.md

Balti

General: The so-called "Northern capital" of Moldova, Balti is known as far back as 1421. The locality obtained its name from the local swamps, and later all the environs retained the same name for a large area, known today as the Balti Steppe. In 1711 Balti was the location for the alliance of the headquarters staffs of the Ruler of Moldova Dmitrie Cantemir and Russian tzar Peter I, during the "Prut’ Campaign" against Turkish janisaries. Latter, with the development of a rail interchange, the importance of Balti rose, and it became a big industrial centre. This role in creased further in the Soviet period: the town was extended and the population became more numerous and was especially trained for the industrial factories.

Encyclopedia Britannica

• Copied from the Balti article in Britannica:

formerly Belts, also spelled Beltsy, or Belcy, city, northern Moldova, on the Raut (Reut) River. Balti, dating from the 15th century, is a major railway junction and the centre of the rich agricultural Balti Steppe. Most industries are concerned with processing farm produce, notably flour milling, sugar refining, and wine making, but furniture, agricultural machinery, and fur clothing also are made. Balti has a teacher-training...

• Copied from the Moldova / Land relief article in Britannica:

The northern landscape of Moldova is characterized by the level plain of the Balti steppe (500 to 650 feet in elevation) and also by uplands averaging twice this height, culminating in Vysokaya Hill (1,053 feet). The northern uplands include the strikingly eroded Medobory-Toltry limestone ridges, which border the Prut River.

National Council for Accreditation and Attestation www.cnaa.acad.md

Soil fertility in dependence of crop rotation and system of fertilization on typical cernoziom from the Balti steppe

Ministry of Environment and Territorial Arrangement

Welcome to State of the Biological Diversity

Country Overview - Republic of Moldova

Last update February 2000

Chisinau-2000

B) Steppe ecosystems

Steppe ecosystems cover the West extremity of Euro - Asian steppe zone and in the last time period here underwent great changes, their vegetation being very much destroyed and broken up. The habitats’ areas of these ecosystems decreased with about 70% in the last 40 years and some fragments of steppe areas only survived. Nowadays grassy steppe formations occupy 300 thousand ha (about 8,9% of the total area of the country) and they preserved themselves in the shape of clusters in northern zones (Balti steppe) and in southern zones (Bugeac steppe).

European Commission

2. The region of hay-fields and elevations of Balti steppe.

Tiscali British reference

Major towns/cities Tiraspol, Balti, Tighina Physical features hilly land lying largely between the rivers Prut and Dniester; northern Moldova comprises the level plain of the Balti Steppe and uplands; the climate is warm and moderately continental

and 767 other hits from Google....

Also Beltsy steppe

Physical features - hilly country lying between the rivers Ptrut and Dniester, Beltsy Steppe in the north are a level plain, it has a warm climate...

Beltsy steppe

http://bnrm.md/publicatii/files/6/2002.pdf at page 6

Beltskaya steppe

A considerable part of the country’s north and south is occupied by steppes (namely, the Beltskaya steppe in the north and the Budjakskaya steppe in the south). The terrain in the central part of the country is characterized by the availability of wooded and mountainous hills up to 430 meters high. Narrow valleys and steep flanks contribute to the impression of a mountain landscape. Since ancient times, this territory has been named “Kodry”, which means “old forest” or “thick forest”. In total for the Republic, forests account for 9.4 percent of its territory. Over 72 percent of soils is ‘chernoziom’ (black humus earth). In the northern part of the Moldavian tableland, a thick layer of chalkstone (named “toltry”) outcrops.

--Moldopodo (talk) 19:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo

User:Ungurul

Moldopodo, stop accusing me of "never trying to reach consensus or to prove whatsoever" and stop trolling. What you do is called trolling. Everybody can see your trolling from this page Talk:Bălţi. --Ungurul (talk) 17:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

User;Ungurul, before you vandalised the article Balti steppe, you have never said anything on the relevant talk page. Further you have simply replaced every word "steppe" with "depression" and you also added diacritics signs everywhere. None of these edits were justified. Fo rnone of these edits you tried to reach a consensus in advance. --Moldopodo (talk) 20:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo

User:Ungurul, de:User:Cultura, de:User:Forta - ref. , , fr:User:William Pedros ref. , , , , ro:User: 125.245.199.2 ref., , please stop personally attacking me under the above mentioned user names, everywhere you insult/personally attack me and vandalise disussion pages.--Moldopodo (talk) 19:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo

Before you ask me something you should stop personally attacking me here. I don't care about you. Who cares that you were blocked everywhere? It's funny your trolling and your personal attacks on others. --Ungurul (talk) 20:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Please confirm with a diff where I personally attack you? I do not think I have called you, as you called me - "troll", "vandal", and I will not translate the obscenities you said on Romanian Misplaced Pages.--Moldopodo (talk) 20:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo

I did not write anything against you, but you proved to be a vandal and troll that was blocked here and elsewhere on other wikipedia. I don't care about you. Ungurul (talk) 20:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Ungurul, one more insult, and you will be blocked from editing. `'Míkka>t 05:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Silent rename

Umm, weren't you supposed to propose this first or something? I'm sure you didn't appreciate a similar move by Xasha (Tighina to Bender) yourself... --Illythr (talk) 19:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't think the matter is that serious. There was no recent war in here. :-) Anyway, I found no map with Bălţi steppe, but see with Bălţi Plain, because it is a geographic region, and inside that geographic region, the vegetation is ... I intend in time to write articles about other plains/hill/rivers of Moldova (today I have also Northern Moldavian Plain, of which this one is sub-part). I see for all countries articles about geographic areas, seldom about vegetation areas. The latter cover wide areas, as a rule. The former get very detailed, like this one: 1,000 sq. km.:Dc76\ 20:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Above it was made pretty clear why Balti steppe is the name to use. Wide use of the name in Moldova, and the use of this concept in Encyclopaedia Britannica are enough to move this article to its rightfull title.Xasha (talk) 02:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Review: original name under which article was created

I don't really care much whether it should be steppe or plain but it is obvious that both versions are no-nonsense, thus the arguments from each side have merits that should be carefully studied if no one is willing to let it go. However, it is important that the article was originally created as steppe. So, if there is a contention, it should be moved to its original name and discussed form there. From what I can see DC76 moved the article written by another person , without discussion and without even raising the question first. This is discourteous and does not help to resolve the matter. The article needs to be returned to where it was until the consensus is established. --Irpen 22:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with several points:

• The article Bălţi Plain is about a topographical region, the article Bălţi steppe about an ecological region. They overlap, and it would be nice to have one article, not two. But, the reason behind my move was that an article about topography can easily accomodate ecology, while the vice-versa is not so logical.
• I have never meant to be discourteous. The person who originally wrote the article Bălţi Steppe did it solely to prove a point: for a couple weeks prior to the creation of the article he and me had a dispute in Bălţi. I was digusted with the edit war, and left WP for some time. After I returned I discovered that that user got into fight with other people about the usage of diacritics, and left WP. I never thought anyone would be interested in this article, so I thought I could take a couple months to develop it. There was a lot of info, but except two sentences related to the tiny Bălţi region, the rest was related to the 40 times larger Moldova in general. So I moved that (very good info!) to Geography of Moldova and History of Moldova, I did not remove it from WP! I was surprized that someone got interested in the move - by all means this was only Illythr - so I thought I could colaborate with him on discussing the matter, etc.
• I think the most effective solution would be to keep both articles Bălţi Plain and Bălţi steppe until the dispute is resolved (with a merge template), because their present content is very different, so there would appear a big question: how to accomodate the two versions. But I would be very open to further suggestions. As long as you don't enjoy hitting your opponent with the fist in the face, I am very keen to listen to the reasons of others... Dc76\ 00:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Calling the Balti steppe a plain is (topographically) as logical as calling the Tibetan Plateau Tibet Plain. IMHO. You moved the article, despite all the sources mentioned in this discussion page. Your reason being what? The fact you had a dispute with the creator? I hope he doesn't create an article about the Codri Hills, because I really won't like it renamed to "Chisinau Highlands". (Since "codri" means forests, I suppose Dc76 will consider it a "ecological region" too, despite what Britannica and others say) Xasha (talk) 01:53, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

User Dc76 has first changed the name to Balti depression, then to Balti plain on the 6 March. On the Balti city talk page he first suggested not put in the introduction ("Balti lies in the middle of the Balti steppe"), then to avoid the word "steppe" because it is allegedly not English, finally after all the operated moves of the article, he added a sentence in last paragraphs "only Russians employ steppe", defying the Moldavian language, English language, as well as scientific works of Moldavian scientists (who wrote in Moldavian language about "Stepa Baltului"), Britannica, unnecessary consensus reached, etc. etc. Now user Dc76 makes theories on "ecological" vs "topological"a s related to steppe and plain - which I will not comment as this invention as well does not merit neither my nor your time, respected readers. Now, after all users, except Bonny's (and I maintain may be Dc76's) clones and Dc76 have confirmed the existence of Balti steppe on the Balti Steppe talk page. Plenty of precise official sources were given both on the Balti (city) talk page and on the Balti steppe talk page, including detailed list of all steppes in Moldova. Dc76 says I am very keen to listen to the reasons of others..., so where are the sources for the existence of the Balti Plain? User Dc76 has further modified the article from what it was to what it is now. Consequently he modified article Geogrpahy of Moldova, again with no source, except his personal opinion. Therefore, an article about Balti Plain on Misplaced Pages has the same value and justification, as well as reasons to be as an article about How I Went to Mars, just because I dream of it very much and do not like planet Moon --Moldopodo (talk) 08:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Name

I think we should use diacritics (with a pronunciation guide in the header). Balti Steppe(no diacritics) can be made into a redirect. Balti Steppe really doesn't look good. An English speaker who has never heard of it, would think it's something related to the Baltic states (IMO). Beltsy is quite close to the pronunciation, but we should use Bălţi.Xasha (talk) 13:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

To me this is the only serious issue that could be a matter of normal discussion here, as "Balti Plain" poll discussion cannot even be considered as a a bad joke. Personally I think the ideal solution for an English speaker, as well as English Misplaced Pages would be Beltsy Steppe, as it clearly gives the meaning, besides sources were provided with such spelling and leaves no place for hesitation what's the subject of the article is. However, Britannica uses Balti steppe (no cap for 'steppe').

I do not think putting dicritics adds any more sense, nor are there that many sources in English with diacritics compare to those without. Besides, like was said and discussed earlier, diacritics makes reference to Moldavian language, however in Moldavian language the steppe is not called Stepa Bălţi, but Stepa Bălţului. Following this logic that is where diacritics should be applied, and then the title would become totally meaningless for an English speaker "Bălţului Steppe". Hence simple version of Bălţi Steppe with diacritics means next to nothing in either language.--Moldopodo (talk) 09:48, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Poll

Okay, I see no other way than to solve this the mechanical way, through a poll. I take Irpen's suggestion above, that the discussion should be conducted on the basis of the status quo ante. The only reason I'm not acting on that is the inconvenience of having to change all the double redirects again. So, we'll go by the "wrong version" principle and leave the article here, for as long as the process lasts. There will, however, be a "default assumption" that a "no consensus" outcome may lead to a move back to "Steppe".

I take it we are not discussing about the diacritics or the capitalisation, so the only alternatives are "Steppe" versus "Plain".

In the !vote sections below, please make short statements only, and no threaded discussion. In the "evidence" section, include only direct links to the relevant data and very brief descriptions of the source. If these have been posted already previously, just provide a link to the old section. Again, no threaded discussion.

In the discussion section, be brief and keep the politics out. I strongly recommend the old combatants, especially Moldopodo, to stay out of it completely. Any aggressive behaviour, overly long ranting, political diversions, failure to assume good faith and other disruptive behaviour will be met with immediate bans from this page, or with blocks.

Look, user whatever your name is (ref. to your answer on my talk page with section you titled "Balti whatever") you clearly lack good manners and I repeatedly recall you that I do not appreciate this strange mentor-child approach, as well as clear harrassment and intimidation with repetitive threats and unproven allegations of POV. I am sure one can do better as administrator--Moldopodo (talk) 10:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Poll will run one week from now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence

Examples of use of "Plain"

Examples of use of "Steppe"

Support "Plain"

Support "Steppe"

• The evidence for steppe was given on this very page, as well as other previously redirected copied and not copied talk pages, as well as on the Balti (city) talk page (see archives), as well as in the "Links" section, as well as on my talk page. There was already a research of consensus, just read above on this very page. I do not see the need of search of second consensus on absurd idea of inexisent Balti Plain, especially when no sources are provided for this invention. What are we discussing, a user's personal opinion?--Moldopodo (talk) 09:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion