Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:44, 20 February 2008

disambiguation discussion

Would it not be more appropriate for this page to be about the ideology and to have a bit at the top saying "for the linux distribution..." rather than the current disambiguation page? --Jason 02:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the term has been through this loop before: see Talk:Ubuntu (ideology) for such gems as "Nobody cares about the stupid word, everyone wants the real Ubuntu here which is 100x more famous than the word." And I see some Linux-cruft has got onto this page again. For you (and me) the default is the philosophy, which is obviously more important anyway; for others, it's Linux, which is obviously more important anyway... Disambiguation is the Way of Peace :-) JackyR 13:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

No, it would not. In fact, this page is a waste of time. The ideology is obscure (in en, at least, which we are), and the distribution is popular. A look at the history for each page gives a quick hint which one more Misplaced Pages users care about; the distribution has over 600 edits, and the ideology has under 100. --130.39.152.206 00:18, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's likely because many Wikipedians are Linux geeks, which would not be surprising given Misplaced Pages's affinity with free software & open source. I don't think there's a good case for primary disambiguation either way; equal disambiguation, as at present, is therefore appropriate. — Matt Crypto 01:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The ideology is by no means obscure to English language users - at least 40 million use the term (quick estimate from pops of a few Anglophone southern African countries). And oddly, these are precisely the countries with low internet access, while Linux geekdom is defined by high access. So the edits are not surprising. If Ignorant Anon wants to see a refelction of him/herself, I suggest s/he look in a mirror. If s/he wants to learn something – well, they could look it up in an encyclopedia. I hear Misplaced Pages's not bad. JackyR 14:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Hear, hear! — mark ✎ 14:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I am the previously anonymous user (130.39.152.206). "Humanity towards others," eh? For the third time in 24 hours, I am left mentioning that ad hominem attacks are not appropriate to other Wikipedians.

For the record, I am not ignorant; I am quite well educated, certainly beyond average. I know, for example, that neither "him/herself" nor "s/he" is a word in the English language, which uses the masculine where common would be used in languages with that gender available.

I am not interested in seeing a reflection of myself; I am interested in getting what I am looking for when I type something that's not ambiguous. Disambiguation pages between exactly two things are a waste of time. I'd even be happier if the philosophy got the main page because an italicized line under the title is just as easy to click.

Ubuntu the philosophy is just obscure to the overwhelming majority of users here. Our audience is not people without internet connections for at least one obvious reason. --CalculatinAvatar 19:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Less than 3 hours ago I was watching Interface (this time hosted by that foxy ice maiden Lerato Mbele) and they were talking about the TRC and goode olde de Klerk used the term "Ubuntu" - I doubt that he's a big fan of Linux... Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, let me see... Since the name of the distribution comes from the philosophy then the philosophy is not so unimportant after all (otherwise the distribution would have another name). What exactly is your problem with the disambiguation? The fact that only a very small percentage of the World's population has internet access is not a good enough reason to exclude the knowledge of everybody else. Everyone thinks that being neurotic means "a little obsessed" but I doubt that's the main explanation at the neurosis article. What Misplaced Pages claims to be the truth should not be based on popularity. If we were to pretend that the philosophy does not exist then we would be lying (and how would we explain the peculiar name of the distribution?). Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 20:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I might add that our intended audience is far broader than the internet-savy linux-fans. Consider als the fact that people are thinking about distributing Misplaced Pages offline and in less developed countries, and suddenly the urgency of Ubuntu Linux is somewhat less. We should strive to be as universally accessible as possible, instead of tailoring our content to the needs of the relatively small community of Linux-people, overrepresented on the internet as they may be. — mark ✎ 05:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

And one more thing. Proponents of the Ubuntu Linux article note that users here 'care more for that article'. Obviously, if you look at the number of edits the respective articles got (though that's not a trustworthy metric). But it also should be obvious that we are not writing the encyclopedia for ourselves! — mark ✎ 06:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh dear. Avatar, I don't know how to reply without making you feel more got at and distracting from the important issue. Which is still that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia; the definition refers to human knowledge, not knowledge of English-speakers with internet connections. It's a difference between an encyclopedia and a cosy fan-site or chat-room. If you have doubts, read Jimbo's m:Personal Appeal: I’m doing this for the child in Africa who is going to use free textbooks and reference works produced by our community and find a solution to the crushing poverty that surrounds him. WP raised money through this statement: when I see it spent on this, a subject which is apparently not "obscure to the overwhelming majority of users here", I feel we're committing fraud.

Here's another thing you perhaps don't know about: m:Conference reports/FLOSS, South Africa 2005/Workshop 1#Potential projects. (Zyx, you'll love this!)

But not knowing is not what I meant by ignorant: it's the attitude of "I've never heard of it, so it can't matter," rather than, "Wow, I never knew that: I've learned something today." You're right that describing your edits as "ignorant" borders on WP:CIVIL - but it's in exactly the same tone as your own comment: reflect on how that made a number of contributors to this page feel!

And I know it's an unwise distraction, but the professional writer in me can't let you go without reference to this, which agrees with my OED. By all means ignore this last if you're feeling got at! JackyR 18:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I can live with the apparent consensus against me, though I continue to disagree.

I would note two things. The idea of a disambiguation page in the free textbook was quite amusing. Regarding "ignorant" being in the same tone, my post was directed at the page, not any person. --CalculatinAvatar 21:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I believe the English language edition of Misplaced Pages (which is an online encyclopedia) is very much for English-speakers with Internet connections. Please see also Misplaced Pages is not a paper encyclopedia. — H.7004.Vx (talk) 01:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively, see "I've never heard of it". JackyR | Talk 19:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The policy you cited was from Misplaced Pages:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. I am not at all advocating the deletion of Ubuntu (ideology) — I would object to that idea, in fact. I simply believe that the current content of Ubuntu (Linux distribution) should be moved to Ubuntu. The current content of Ubuntu, then, should be moved to Ubuntu (disambiguation). And, of course, there would be a notice on the top of the article, stating something similar to:

This article is about the Linux distribution. For the ideology, see Ubuntu (ideology). For other uses, see Ubuntu (disambiguation).

— H.7004.Vx (talk) 22:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, an entire disambiguation page for just one article is a bit excessive. The notice should state:

This article is about the Linux distribution. For the ideology, see Ubuntu (ideology). For the education fund, see Ubuntu Education Fund.

— H.7004.Vx (talk) 22:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Or we could have the content of Ubuntu (ideology) at Ubuntu, as was originally the case. How would you feel about that?

As you can now see, different users prioritise different meanings, each group strongly believing its own priority is the "correct" one. The disambiguation page avoids prioritising one meaning over the other (although god help us the two-year-olds are now fighting over order on the page... For heaven's sake...).

This is the third time at least the page has been throught this discussion, so excuse my concentrated No Enthusiasm.JackyR | Talk 23:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, in May 2003, which is when that edit was from, this would've made sense as Ubuntu was not even released yet. Now, however, the relative amount of obscurity between both topics seems to have changed. — H.7004.Vx (talk) 23:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with H.7004.vx, especially now that Ubuntu has grown into a major Linux distribution. I've posted at WP:DAB for additional comments. Mahanga 02:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

and just when it settles down, Bill Clinton uses it in a speech...

(Bill Clinton comment left by some anonymous user.)

Ultimately this silly disambiguation page is the price we must pay due to Canonical choosing an existing word to name their distribution.

I have to wonder though where the line is drawn. If the philosophy article only got 10 pageviews per day while the Linux article got 100,000 would it still make sense not to default to the Linux article? Would it still make sense for the philosophy article to get top billing on the disambiguation page? BobbyPeru 18:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

With regard to Canonical's decision to overload the term "Ubuntu", perhaps it's unfortunate, but it's hardly unique. A large number of trademarks are made by taking an existing term and applying it to a fanciful context. And it might not be all that unfortunate either. I wouldn't be surprised if knowledge about the Ubuntu distribution creates some interest in the Ubuntu ideology. I know I had never heard of it previously. From that POV, I kind of like having the two-term disambiguation page. Finding what you really want is still straightforward and awareness of the other usage is subtlely increased. --AlphaEtaPi 23:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It would still make sense to me. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Ubuntu should stay as a dab, because:

1. Moving articles around or redirecting this page would require backlink fixing, which is seldom done; and no backlink fixing would consume server recources, which are currently scarce
2. This arrangement is neutral between pro-Linux and pro-ideology partisans, who cannot come to a consensus on which article is more important/popular/whatever
3. I can't think of any benefit that coulf be objectively measured if things were moved around
4. Frankly, my dear all, this is not that important an issue and people looking for one of the Ubuntu articles will not waste a terrible amount amount of time because of an extra jump.

My opinion, of course.--maf (talk-cont) 03:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)". Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation. CarolGray 11:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not a bad rule of thumb. One problem here is that Ubuntu-the-ideology is going to be underrepresented on the Internet, and Ubuntu-the-Linux-distro overrepresented. Quite how much is hard to say, but we have to be very careful of systemic bias; that is, we shouldn't prioritise geek topics just because we're an Internet project. (And sheesh, people! Let's not edit war over the order of the entries on the page...) — Matt Crypto 05:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

User Mahanga

User:Mahanga has reverted my neutral alpha sort and put the Linux article back on top, stating on the edit summary: "it's not an agenda, order of usage is a guideline". Well, I don't care nor do I know about any ubuntu, be it an operating system or an ideology; I came here to do some needed dab-cleanup, so I'll say this about this user:

1. He has a conflict of interest as he declared on his personal pages his likes for the operating system; he was wrong to find a reason (albeit not proven) to accomodate his interest
2. He is an administrator, so he obviously is right in what he did.

Some ideology partisan will come next and get their own convenient excuse to revert the order once again, until some admin reverts it again. It's the circle of WP life. My job is done here. --maf (talk-cont) 22:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

derivatives of Ubuntu?

Why does this page have derivatives of Ubuntu listed on it? shouldn't they be on the Ubuntu Linux page? if no-one can give a good reason, I will move them to the Ubuntu (Linux) page, or whatever it's called Inzy 06:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that is quite confusing, and inappropriate. Move it!! Bump it around like a toothless crackwhore!! Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 11:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

A template on Ubuntu Christian Edition points to this page, to discuss the include/merge that article (Ubuntu Christian Edition) with this disambiguation page. (Obviously somebody wasn't paying attention to what they were linking to.)jonathon 20:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Although less important, Linux is more popular.

come on, more people want to know about the distro than the ideology/foundation. let this page redirect to Ubuntu (Linux distribution). Peteturtle 20:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The Ubuntu page should point to the disambiguation page. As a philosophy, it is far more important than any computer operating system will ever be. (As far as I know, nobody has been killed for using an operating system. People were killed trying to convince governments to adhere to the philosophy that Ubuntu is. Maptela Mohapi in pace requiescat.)jonathon 06:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow. I never new people were killed for believing in Ubuntu. It really is more important than the distro, but you have to see that if you google "Ubuntu," almost all of the first 10 pages of results will be solely about the OS. It's more popular, so shouldn't Misplaced Pages follow that? I'm not trying to start an edit war. I'm just trying to help Misplaced Pages. Peteturtle 10:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Peteturtle. The statistics and style guide back up the notion that Ubuntu should redirect to Ubuntu (Linux distribution), with disambiguation from there... it's simply the much more popular destination for those browsing wikipedia and the web and general. WP:DAB states:

"When there is a well known primary meaning for a term or phrase, much more used than any other (this may be indicated by a majority of links in existing articles or by consensus of the editors of those articles that it will be significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings), then that topic may be used for the title of the main article, with a disambiguation link at the top. If there's a disambiguation page, it should link back to the primary topic."

This is definitely the case for Ubuntu. Many more people are searching for the Linux distribution. Look at the top 1000 most viewed pages for the current month. Ubuntu (Linux distribution) is about halfway down... none of the other meanings are listed. Choosing to point the disambiguation page to the most commonly-search meaning is not a judgment about morality or social importance or relevance. It's simply a matter of convenience for users. MOXFYRE (contrib) 13:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Web statistics are a very flawed measure for judging "primary usage" for this sort of thing, simply because, by restricting ourselves to people connected to the Internet, we are enormously skewing our data. (There are not so many Africans on the Internet, but most Linux users are.) Try Googling "Java", for example. We need to remember that Misplaced Pages is not just for the people who are well connected to the Internet in 2007. — Matt Crypto 17:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Um... what?? Actually, Misplaced Pages *is* just for the people who are well connected to the Internet right now... since that's the only way to access it! This is a statement of fact, not a moral judgment, and if the user base changes in the future, wikipedia can/will adapt rapidly. Misplaced Pages is not a paper encyclopedia. It makes no sense to arrange redirect/disambiguation pages for users that aren't present in great numbers yet... regardless of whether that situation is just or desirable.

If more Africans get Internet access (which would be a wonderful development!) and more users want to read to about Ubuntu (philosophy) than Ubuntu (Linux distribution), then the redirect/disambiguation can change. There is no reason for the redirect to be set in stone, as this is simply a matter of practicality rather than principle. MOXFYRE (contrib) 19:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

To an extent, part of this is an "eventualist vs immediatist" discussion. Misplaced Pages stated goal is to "create and distribute a 💕 of the highest possible quality to every single person on the planet in their own language". I think we should write it as such, even if at this moment in time most people who access Misplaced Pages live in developed countries and read it over the Web. Ubuntu Linux is simply not the primary meaning in a global sense, and we are intended to be a global project. Further, it's not a good message to send to people when a computer operating system — popular only with a relatively small number of geeks and created less than 3 years ago — is given precedence over a philosophy known to millions of people who are no less important than other people just because they happen to live in Africa. — Matt Crypto 19:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree whole-heartedly with that goal! However, I believe that redirecting from ambiguous terms to primary definition is not a matter of principle or encyclopedic quality or universality, but mainly an issue of convenience. The simple fact is that most people who look up Ubuntu in Misplaced Pages want the Linux distribution. Those who want one of the other uses will be immediately presented with an {{otheruses}} heading, and will find what they want. This is not a slight to the other articles, simply a means to save a few thousand clicks per day :-) MOXFYRE (contrib) 19:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I've put Ubuntu back to the DAB+discuss form, because Peteturtle's redirect had a serious problem: by failing to add a dab-line to Ubuntu (Linux), he made Ubuntu (philos) completely unfindable.

So far I don't see any consensus in this discussion (the same people posting several times does not constitute weight of opinion) and given all previous discussions on precisely this topic, I don't feel those objections have been overcome. In particular, one of Misplaced Pages 1.0's specific goals is to make Misplaced Pages available off-line to people in countries with poor internet access - this is in progress now, not the distant future.

Those who are in favour of a redirect to Linux, I suggest asking at Misplaced Pages talk:Disambiguation for input on this page. These folk will be non-partisan - tho last time their considered opinion was to leave the dab. JackyR | Talk 23:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The mango came first, then the Mango fly, now we have Fly Mango the slogan of SAA who would like their slogan to be more popular while it is less important. Have you ever been stung by a Mango fly or eaten a Mango for that matter? If you had done any of the above you would probably remember. For someone looking for Fly Mango, well Misplaced Pages is not quite there yet..Gregorydavid 01:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Some research... Misplaced Pages's top 1000 most viewed pages has Transformers (film) at no 6, Bleach (manga) at 15, Heroes (TV series) at 19, Graduation (album) at 29. These are way above Ubuntu (Linux) at "halfway down" (MoxFyre), yet the default entries are all the original word or a DAB. Even Java leads to the island not the programming language.

This seems to undermine all the above arguments for Linux to be the default Ubuntu entry. But I shall research further, just in case. JackyR | Talk 13:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at Wagon Wheel and ] and ask yourself what happened to those wagon wheels which came first and seem to have been erased from the record on wikipedia.Gregorydavid 13:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

You mean Wagonwheel --froth 00:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I am a big fan of Ubuntu Linux, and I think we should be human by treating others as human, and keep Ubuntu as a disambiguation page. -- Logotu 20:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I'm inclined to agree with the practically-classic "Nobody cares about the stupid word, everyone wants the real Ubuntu here which is 100x more famous than the word". Actually I whole-heartedly agree with it. DISCUSS! The discussion has seemed to stall, lets get more people on the linux distro bandwagon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Froth (talk • contribs) 00:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Pointless edit war

What is the purpose of changing the order of the times listed in the disambiguation page? Especially when the Misplaced Pages default is to order items alphabetically. jonathon 22:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I have fairly strong feelings on whether or not this page should be a redirect... but as long as it's a disambiguation page, I don't see any point in squabbling over the order. Alphabetical makes sense on dab pages with only a few entries. ǝɹʎℲxoɯ (contrib) 22:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Standardized Disamabig Page

I have fixed the disambiguation page to match standard wikipedia style. It is better this way, please don't revert without first posting here.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ubuntu&oldid=168816058 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.87.175.97 (talk) 22:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)#Longer lists - this list is not long enough to justify categorized disambiguation. —Remember the dot 00:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The place, computing, generic breakdown is easier to read. For those looking for a specific thing, such as the town, the undifferentiated list is harder to parse than the categorized list. Furthermore, given the recent pointless edit war, such categorization might serve to prevent/minimize future pointless edit wars. jonathon 03:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem with categorization is that it would place Ubuntu (Linux distribution) below significantly less popular links such as Ubuntu Education Fund and Ubuntu Award. The Ubuntu Award article, incidentally, does not even exist. The idea here is to help users navigate quickly to the most important topics, not make them look through lists of items they don't care about so much before finding what they are after. —Remember the dot 03:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• A categorized list is faster for me to scan through. When I look at it, my eyes immediately jump to the bolded category labels and I find my article instantly. With a big list, I have to look through it manually. While you may be right that my list was technically longer; it is faster to use and that is what's important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.134.164.46 (talk) 07:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

DCC Alliance

The DCC Alliance article is up for deletion. Those interested may wish to weigh in at Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/DCC_Alliance and/or help improve (correct...) the piece as a historical record of past diversions. —Sladen 07:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Redirect Yo

YO man, I heard about this linux distro(butuion) and so I searched it on wikipedi. But if there is an improtant philosophy than that should go first. The distro existed for a few years, but the philosophy started years back man. And it Is WAAAY more p=improtant. THis unsigned comment was left by..... just kidding --Sdakjg (talk) 19:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

We want to provide the best service to wikipedia users. That means helping them find the content they are interested in. That means the linux definition. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 00:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)