Talk:Defense of Brest Fortress: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 00:34, 16 February 2008 editIrpen (talk \| contribs)32,604 edits →Soviet gulags ← Previous edit		Revision as of 00:46, 16 February 2008 edit undoPiotrus (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers286,414 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
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	:Fact: by default, Soviet soldiers who became German prisoner of wars went immediately after being "freed" to Gulags (provided several refs for that). Fact: any survivors of the siege would be Soviet soldiers who became German prisoners of war. The case of Gavrilov is the proverbial icing of the cake. Fact: Solzhenicyn writes: "In the post-Stalin epoch, when the defenders of Brest were no longer classified as traitors to the Motherland (all who capitulated had automatically been branded as such". Fact: Traitors to the Motherland, if they were not executed, went to Gulags. Hence, if you want to prove that defenders of the fortress did not go to Gulag, you have to provide sources that say so (and that major Gavrilov was an exception, not the rule), since all the other evidence indicates indicate they went to Gulag. This fact further explains why (as Solzhenicyn noted) the story of the fortress was not well researched until 1950s-60s (when the survivors were let out of the gulags and could have been questioned by the historians). This is important to the article, and is not used to criticize Stalinism or Russia, not more than the very story of the heroic defense is used to glorify it. Perhaps something in the section needs to be rewritten to be more clear, but I don't see what is so problematic here.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</span></sub> 00:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)		:Fact: by default, Soviet soldiers who became German prisoner of wars went immediately after being "freed" to Gulags (provided several refs for that). Fact: any survivors of the siege would be Soviet soldiers who became German prisoners of war. The case of Gavrilov is the proverbial icing of the cake. Fact: Solzhenicyn writes: "In the post-Stalin epoch, when the defenders of Brest were no longer classified as traitors to the Motherland (all who capitulated had automatically been branded as such". Fact: Traitors to the Motherland, if they were not executed, went to Gulags. Hence, if you want to prove that defenders of the fortress did not go to Gulag, you have to provide sources that say so (and that major Gavrilov was an exception, not the rule), since all the other evidence indicates indicate they went to Gulag. This fact further explains why (as Solzhenicyn noted) the story of the fortress was not well researched until 1950s-60s (when the survivors were let out of the gulags and could have been questioned by the historians). This is important to the article, and is not used to criticize Stalinism or Russia, not more than the very story of the heroic defense is used to glorify it. Perhaps something in the section needs to be rewritten to be more clear, but I don't see what is so problematic here.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</span></sub> 00:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

	What here, besides Gavrilov, is directly related to Brest? All this general stuff cannot be added to each and every article about the war. There are dedicated articles for that. This is ]racking. And, again, you remove tags unilaterally without waiting for me to respond. Anyway, now this coatracking is marked. --] 00:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)		::What here, besides Gavrilov, is directly related to Brest? All this general stuff cannot be added to each and every article about the war. There are dedicated articles for that. This is ]racking. And, again, you remove tags unilaterally without waiting for me to respond. Anyway, now this coatracking is marked. --] 00:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

			:::As I have explained above, the imprisonment of Brest defenders survivors has crucial implications to why the story of the fortress was not told or researched till 1960s. Historiography of this event seems quite relevant to me. If it does not reflect nicely on the image of the SU, I am sorry, but we cannot hide the unpleasant facts. Or pleasant. As I said, one could also criticize this article for recreating one of the legends of the Patriotic War. I do however note that you have no objections along that line? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</span></sub> 00:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

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Soviet gulags

I checked the refs and none of them talk about the mass imprisonment of all Soviet survivors of the siege and having them sent to "Gulags". BTW, what are the "Gulags" anyway. There is only a confirmed story on major Gavrilov. Most of the refs do not even mention the battle and its survivors. What they make up is a random collection of books that say that Soviets imprisoned the Red Army POW's upon their release. While true, this is not relevant to this particular battle as none of the refs speak about the battle itself or its survivors.

Please do not twist facts, and do not use the article on a specific historic battle as a coatrack to wear other stuff. There are dedicated articles on cruelties of Stalinism. Piotrus reverted me twice. Instead of carrying on his revert war, I tagged the section. I expect the tag to remain until this issue is resolved. --Irpen 22:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Fact: by default, Soviet soldiers who became German prisoner of wars went immediately after being "freed" to Gulags (provided several refs for that). Fact: any survivors of the siege would be Soviet soldiers who became German prisoners of war. The case of Gavrilov is the proverbial icing of the cake. Fact: Solzhenicyn writes: "In the post-Stalin epoch, when the defenders of Brest were no longer classified as traitors to the Motherland (all who capitulated had automatically been branded as such". Fact: Traitors to the Motherland, if they were not executed, went to Gulags. Hence, if you want to prove that defenders of the fortress did not go to Gulag, you have to provide sources that say so (and that major Gavrilov was an exception, not the rule), since all the other evidence indicates indicate they went to Gulag. This fact further explains why (as Solzhenicyn noted) the story of the fortress was not well researched until 1950s-60s (when the survivors were let out of the gulags and could have been questioned by the historians). This is important to the article, and is not used to criticize Stalinism or Russia, not more than the very story of the heroic defense is used to glorify it. Perhaps something in the section needs to be rewritten to be more clear, but I don't see what is so problematic here.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

What here, besides Gavrilov, is directly related to Brest? All this general stuff cannot be added to each and every article about the war. There are dedicated articles for that. This is WP:COATracking. And, again, you remove tags unilaterally without waiting for me to respond. Anyway, now this coatracking is marked. --Irpen 00:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

As I have explained above, the imprisonment of Brest defenders survivors has crucial implications to why the story of the fortress was not told or researched till 1960s. Historiography of this event seems quite relevant to me. If it does not reflect nicely on the image of the SU, I am sorry, but we cannot hide the unpleasant facts. Or pleasant. As I said, one could also criticize this article for recreating one of the legends of the Patriotic War. I do however note that you have no objections along that line? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

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Revision as of 00:34, 16 February 2008 editIrpen (talk \| contribs)32,604 edits →Soviet gulags ← Previous edit		Revision as of 00:46, 16 February 2008 edit undoPiotrus (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers286,414 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
Line 12:		Line 12:
	:Fact: by default, Soviet soldiers who became German prisoner of wars went immediately after being "freed" to Gulags (provided several refs for that). Fact: any survivors of the siege would be Soviet soldiers who became German prisoners of war. The case of Gavrilov is the proverbial icing of the cake. Fact: Solzhenicyn writes: "In the post-Stalin epoch, when the defenders of Brest were no longer classified as traitors to the Motherland (all who capitulated had automatically been branded as such". Fact: Traitors to the Motherland, if they were not executed, went to Gulags. Hence, if you want to prove that defenders of the fortress did not go to Gulag, you have to provide sources that say so (and that major Gavrilov was an exception, not the rule), since all the other evidence indicates indicate they went to Gulag. This fact further explains why (as Solzhenicyn noted) the story of the fortress was not well researched until 1950s-60s (when the survivors were let out of the gulags and could have been questioned by the historians). This is important to the article, and is not used to criticize Stalinism or Russia, not more than the very story of the heroic defense is used to glorify it. Perhaps something in the section needs to be rewritten to be more clear, but I don't see what is so problematic here.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</span></sub> 00:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)		:Fact: by default, Soviet soldiers who became German prisoner of wars went immediately after being "freed" to Gulags (provided several refs for that). Fact: any survivors of the siege would be Soviet soldiers who became German prisoners of war. The case of Gavrilov is the proverbial icing of the cake. Fact: Solzhenicyn writes: "In the post-Stalin epoch, when the defenders of Brest were no longer classified as traitors to the Motherland (all who capitulated had automatically been branded as such". Fact: Traitors to the Motherland, if they were not executed, went to Gulags. Hence, if you want to prove that defenders of the fortress did not go to Gulag, you have to provide sources that say so (and that major Gavrilov was an exception, not the rule), since all the other evidence indicates indicate they went to Gulag. This fact further explains why (as Solzhenicyn noted) the story of the fortress was not well researched until 1950s-60s (when the survivors were let out of the gulags and could have been questioned by the historians). This is important to the article, and is not used to criticize Stalinism or Russia, not more than the very story of the heroic defense is used to glorify it. Perhaps something in the section needs to be rewritten to be more clear, but I don't see what is so problematic here.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</span></sub> 00:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

	What here, besides Gavrilov, is directly related to Brest? All this general stuff cannot be added to each and every article about the war. There are dedicated articles for that. This is ]racking. And, again, you remove tags unilaterally without waiting for me to respond. Anyway, now this coatracking is marked. --] 00:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)		::What here, besides Gavrilov, is directly related to Brest? All this general stuff cannot be added to each and every article about the war. There are dedicated articles for that. This is ]racking. And, again, you remove tags unilaterally without waiting for me to respond. Anyway, now this coatracking is marked. --] 00:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

			:::As I have explained above, the imprisonment of Brest defenders survivors has crucial implications to why the story of the fortress was not told or researched till 1960s. Historiography of this event seems quite relevant to me. If it does not reflect nicely on the image of the SU, I am sorry, but we cannot hide the unpleasant facts. Or pleasant. As I said, one could also criticize this article for recreating one of the legends of the Patriotic War. I do however note that you have no objections along that line? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</span></sub> 00:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)