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NikoSilver is currently working his ass off in real life and has decided that it is about time his long RealLifeBreak in favor of WP was interrupted. He will make frequent brief RealLifeBreaks, but you won't see him as much as you may be used to. (Yeah, he knows you're better off!)

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:NikoSilver:

Δε θα κάνεις archive το talk page σου ποτέ; Telex 1 3 : 0 5 , 2 M a y 2 0 0 6 ( U T C )

Μπα! :NikoSilver: 1 3 : 1 8 , 2 M a y 2 0 0 6 ( U T C )

Red team vs Blue Team

I just stalked read your discussion with Nightstallion about the naming dispute and propaganda. Am I mistaken, or did some guy Бошкоски say that there is some form of continuity between Vlachs and Ancient Macedonians? If I'm right, the idiot is bringing another group into this and then the Republic has one more minority problem. It's also possible Greece can get involved in this - Greek sources already claim a Greek minority based on Vlachs.

I'm sorry that you haven't seen/met any non-irredentist ethnic Macedonians - they are there. Maybe they are in hiding :). The government does distance itself from irredentism but it doesn't crack down on it (hence school books and such) because then there will be a political problem (much like what happened in Greece - the lame " not hardline enough" accusations). Both governments need to keep the people happy while solving the dispute - it's a bitch. Obviously, in the red corner there are some people who want the entire region, but the smart people know that this will never happen - just like how Bulgaria will never get the republic, Albania will never get Southern Epirus, and Greece will never get Northern Epirus. In Europe, borders (on the maps) will stay the same - even though they won't actually matter when the union expands. It's not even in the republic's best interest to be "united" because then there will be yet another minority problem.In regards to your table, ethnic Macedonians from the blue corner are called "Aegeans" (Егејци - Egejci).

The naming dispute could be resolved that early, but it all depends on which Greek party comes into power and how much they want it resolved. It's actually in Greece's best interest to resolve it quickly - otherwise they look like assholes for using their veto. The republic, on the other hand, have survived as non-NATO for this long already so it won't hurt much to wait. Same with EU - the republic can work on fulfilling the criteria for accession to a greater extent until the only thing standing in the way is Greece (and maybe Greece 2). Alex 202.10.89.28 05:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Greeks would form a slight majority in a United Macedonia. Oops. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 05:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe/maybe not. The problem is the unknown number of Slavophones. They might adopt/return to (depends how you look at it) a Macedonian (Slavic) identity because it would benefit them to be part of the majority. If you have a response Kékrōps go to my talk page. Alex 202.10.89.28 07:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The unknown number of Slavophones with "ethnic Macedonian consciousness" is very well described in Minorities in Greece#Christian Orthodox Slavophones. Estimations range from less than 3,000 to 180,000. NikoSilver 20:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Now to your first post: I agree with many things that you say, and I also take the flip side into consideration. The US and UN pressing on the acceptance of the recent (FINALLY!) Greek shift in policy for a "composite name" has started to become notable. In that sense, both can start looking like assholes, for different reasons. Non-NATO survival is to my sincere opinion in a very big danger of becoming short-lived, given the (unavoidably IMO) upcoming Kosovo crisis. So, maybe not only Greece and Greece 1⅔ are standing in the way. I'd say it's to the Republic's own best interest to start looking for really friendly and worthy neighbors, with common interests. I would look south for the best match. NikoSilver 20:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. But let's not forget that "friendly" will only extend to the governments of both countries. What the respective inhabitants (most of them, anyway) will think of each other is completely different. It's definitely not my view, nor do I think it's your's, but the red team and Greeks (especially the blue team) will have these mutual feelings for a long time. While I'm not a fan of any party on either side, imagine if the people were allowed to decide on foreign relations. Alex 202.10.89.28 (talk) 23:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately (?) for both of us, it is the people who dictate foreign policy, either directly or indirectly in the end of the day. So, the purpose of those who can grasp reality should be to educate those people, and make them dictate reality, rather than moronic passion. I've tried a lot to do my part with the hard-lined Greeks I've come across. But this has to work from both sides, and there's still a lot of work to do. NikoSilver 11:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, to my understanding, most of the Kosovo Liberation Army and the Albanian National Army are (and this might be misinformation or a fringe view) actual criminals involved in drug and weapons trafficking, and NATO (or some big country, probably the US) took the Kosovo side because of the potential of profiting from this. I can't really be certain that NATO membership for the Republic will actually protect it from Kosovo, especially if it is beneficial to the US to let the Albanians do what they want. The US has a history of backing military coups in the less well off countries. Alex 202.10.89.28 (talk) 03:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and it seems the Republic is expected to join NATO next year, along with Albania, so that could complicate the Kosovo situation a lot. I seriously doubt Albania will take action against Kosovo if NATO does.

Yes. Greeks experience this already with Turkey (and vice-versa). So this makes your country's pacification with Greece even more important. NikoSilver 11:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

And you didn't answer to the first paragraph. Alex 202.10.89.28 (talk) 03:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

What, the Vlachs? I wouldn't be a strong supporter of this, but to my experience, the Vlachs in Greece are the most crazy pro-Greek nationalists. BTW even our president is of Vlach descent! So much about the concept of "Greek genetic continuity", huh? Anyway, I feel that Vlachs are very adaptive to the cultures they are brought-up in. Although I've met quite a few in your country, I cannot assess their self-classification. I think it's far from a minority problem, though. And those Greek sources are from the extreme right minority. NikoSilver 11:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I can tell you the Vlachs in Macedonia identify as Vlachs or just as "Makedonci" which doesn't necessarily mean ethnic Macedonians. What I meant was if an ethnic Macedonian says traces of Ancient Macedonians can be found in Vlachs, this may get out of hand - another group claiming continuity and then a minority problem. I hope that makes sense. The Vlachs are basically friends with everyone in every country. I didn't know Papoulias was of Vlach origin - but on the flip side, Hari Kostov is as well. And Gigi Becali. And Fatos Nano. Can you explain the sources/content again? So a minority party in Greece is pointing out (alleged) red team propaganda? Alex 202.10.89.28 (talk) 01:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah, no. The idiot red team guy says that traces of the Ancients can be found in the Vlachs -period (which is totally unhistoric). He forgets to mention whichever Greeks (whose language had absorbed their's by 300AD), because that would be a national crime. In this way he tries to appropriate the ancients from the window of intermingling with the Vlachs. The idiot blue-team guys say the Ancients were Greeks all along (like it even matters), and then that whichever Vlachs around are Greek too, because they usually self-identify as such. NikoSilver 10:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok then. That clears things up. Still on the Vlachs, it would be funny if the Greek, Albanian, and Macedonian presidents/prime ministers were all of Vlach descent. Maybe then they would get along :D. BTW what's are you leaning towards on a naming solution? I am seeing Upper Macedonia as the one (for now, but I'm not endorsing anything yet). Maybe they'll have a shortlist and announce it for a vote. Alex 202.10.89.28 (talk) 12:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I really don't think it is important which qualifier is picked. My only concern would be that there is a qualifier, so as to leave the wider region that encompasses all of us without one. I would let the ethnic Macedonians decide which they prefer if it were me. Below I have some comments on several of them, feel free to add your view in each one:

• New: Well, it certainly is not the old one, but, still, I can foresee two problems with this: 1) 1870 when geographers started calling the wider region as such is not that "new", although 1944 when the Republic was first formed politically is "new". 2) Hardliners of the red team may argue that it detaches them from their "rightful past". I can also see two benefits: 1) It is a widely used unoffensive qualifier (New York, New Mexico, New Zealand, New Philadelphia, etc), and 2) it's frequently abbreviated by "N." It is my preferable choice.

• Slav/ic: That one is "burnt", unfortunately. Too many negative feelings, and for no reason in my opinion. Nobody disputes that ethnic Macedonians are of Slavic descent. It has two major problems: 1) It does not describe the Albanian minority. 2) It had been used in a "discriminating" way by the Greeks during our civil war.

• Upper/North: "Upper" sounds a little strange, and hasn't been used in any other situation (to my awareness). North has a few ugly connotations with formerly split nations, or from nations that had wanted to be "re-united". Such as Ireland (in the view of IRA), such as Korea et. al. I'd prefer the first since it is a virgin term.

In any case, as I said, I wouldn't really mind what the qualifier would be. Actually, I wouldn't even mind if a qualifier existed at all if everybody was educated to the point of not confusing irrelevant things (like "Macedonia=Macedonia=Macedonia"). Unfortunately we can't educate our own people, so you can imagine what goes on with the rest of the world. NikoSilver 12:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It's all so sad, really. And ridiculous. Rather than being threatened by the name, Greece should have been the first to welcome Macedonian independence, set up aid, binational trade and cultural organizations, ushered Macedonia into the EC and other international organizations etc, etc. Skopje and its hinterlands would by today be awash with Greek businesses, Greek tourists. Greek and Macedonian archaeologists would be collaborating, etc, etc. With huge benefit for the entire region, on both sides of the border.

Theoretically, it is still possible to get out of this mess, but I don't see real progress where one side demands the other concede. And I don't see either side ignoring their hard-line nationalists. Too bad there is not a name like Ur-Macedonia available. Jd2718 (talk) 16:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

And if all that wasn't enough, we have know-it-all outsiders pontificating on what's best for us. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 16:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)