| Revision as of 03:37, 4 November 2007 editMrshaba (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,273 edits →What comes after an Rfc?← Previous edit | Revision as of 03:55, 4 November 2007 edit undoJ-stan (talk | contribs)5,849 edits →What comes after an Rfc?: beware robotsNext edit → | ||
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| ::Again - I went through he Rfc process and it seems to have failed. What should I do next? ] 03:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC) | ::Again - I went through he Rfc process and it seems to have failed. What should I do next? ] 03:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC) | ||
| ::: You might want to take the IP to ], as fighting consensus could be considered disruptive behavior. While sometimes those who go against consensus claim to have policy on their side, this seems like a clear cut case of ]. People think it illustrates the point clearly, which is OK, but it isn't backed up by policy or guidelines. Also, the IP seems to have the wrong idea about consensus, saying that "Consensus means either that everyone likes it or no one likes it." That rarely ever happens, so we go by an overwhelming majority system. If unanimity and consensus were synonymous, we'd have no admins, no crats, and we'd all ]. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 03:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC) | |||
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Revision as of 03:55, 4 November 2007
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Help with Get (conflict) article
Resolved – Full protection for the article and an indefinite block for Sagbliss. Adrian M. H. 15:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been a lot of new additions to the Get (conflict) article by Sagbliss which look a lot like WP:OR and WP:POV. This individual has also been very aggressive with other editors. See User talk:198.23.5.73 and User_talk:Savant1984#Talk:Reform_Judaism and User talk:24.225.137.164. In additional to combining a lot of unverifiable material from court cases around the world, this person is reshaping the article "to highlight the plight of the agunah." Since he or she claims to be part of an active Canadian court case related to the topic, this could also fall into a conflict of interest.
I, and another anonymous Wikipedian have tried to educate Sagbliss (who's probably Bruker from a key Canadian case) on taking a more measured approach to the article. Essentially, Sagbliss ignores the advice and has made broad changes to the article without proper verifiable citations. It may take a while, but read her contributions to people's and the article's talk pages to get a taste of what she's up to and her {willful) misunderstanding of how Misplaced Pages works
We might also want to seek help from wikipedians who are legal experts. Bruno23 13:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- You could consider soliciting a third opinion on the matter... --Aarktica 13:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- An administrator has put a temporary block on editing the article while we try to work things out with Sagbliss. Bruno23 18:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to know how he reported you to the "Executive Staff" of Misplaced Pages. Does he mean the sysops? They are by no means the executive staff. J-ſtanContribs 18:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- One editor brought up that point on the Sagbliss talk page. It has gotten stranger since. Sagbliss has been lashing out at many editors, including the Admin who put the block on editing the article. Bruno23 15:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to know how he reported you to the "Executive Staff" of Misplaced Pages. Does he mean the sysops? They are by no means the executive staff. J-ſtanContribs 18:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- An administrator has put a temporary block on editing the article while we try to work things out with Sagbliss. Bruno23 18:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
editing dispute between ntb613 and CJCurrie about John_Tory
Stale – No further edits to article. Adrian M. H. 00:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
he reverts what i edit but doesn't even explain why? could you help
--Ntb613 03:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hello Ntb, The information you're adding has several problems with it. First, it is not cited with reliable, third-party sources to prove that it is not just your opinion. Realize that Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought, diatribes, editorials, or other items relating to how you may personally feel about an issue. One of the core policies of Misplaced Pages is neutrality, and you have not written that passage in a neutral tone. All these things combined, I'm afraid, will result in the removal of this kind of thing. Now, adding to all of these issues, is another extremely important policy of Misplaced Pages, the biographies of living persons policy. Basically this says that any and all information about living people must be sourced, cited, and verifiable, and if it is not, it can be removed, especially controversial or potentially defamatory information. You are basically accusing John Tory of antisemitism and discrimination, and that's your opinion, not a quotation that is cited by a source. That must be removed immediately, to avoid legal issues. Please review all of these policies quite carefully, as they are all very important parts of Misplaced Pages. If you'd like to take those two paragraphs to the article's talk page, please do so, and you can discuss them with the community there, and possibly get help in re-wording it, finding sources, and then it could be added to the article if it were appropriate. I hope this helps explain why your edits are being removed. Cheers! Ariel♥Gold 03:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thanks here is the official un website saying it Decisions of the UN Human Rights Committee
and here is alink to wikepedia site saying the same thing (look under education)
and here is another one from wikepedia
and the fact that dalton mgcinty is a catholic you could see on this wikepidia site by his biografy
what do you say to this? and actualy i am not acusing john tory, you mistaken the names with dalton mcguinty. as you see its not just my opinion but something that UN said and is quoted on wikepedia. waiting for your reply!!! --Ntb613 06:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is not a reliable, third-party source and cannot be used as such. As for the UN website, that does not say what you edited into the article, in fact it does not even mention John Tory (which is the article you edited, but the document does not mention Dalton McGuinty either). As I said, your edits were quite opinionated (non-neutral), and bordered on defamatory (mentioning antisemitism, etc). Please review all the policies and guidelines I've given you (click on any blue words) and I think you'll understand the issues. I ask you to again look at your edit, here it is again, and read through it. You see how you use multiple question marks, you ask rhetorical questions, and you make comments that are your own personal opinion? Those are all things that are not done in encyclopedias; an encyclopedia states facts, backed up by verifiable sources. That edit, however, would be appropriate for the article's talk page, to get discussion from the community and perhaps allow others to help word the issues you bring up into something backed up by sources, neutrally written, and cited. Ariel♥Gold 06:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- so you think non of that should be there? did i understand you corectly? --Ntb613 06:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Just in case Ariel appears to be a lone voice in criticising your edit, I can confirm that she has accurately summed up those three core policies of neutrality, verifiability and OR. We all have to try to leave our biases and beliefs at the door when we edit articles. Your edit was unacceptable, not just in light of these policies, but because of its inherent incompatibility with the requirements of an encyclopædia. Adrian M. H. 11:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Definitions of Axis and Japan's official status in ww2.
Your Misplaced Pages pages titled "Axis Pact" relates historically wrong and undocumented information in regards to Japan and the term 'axis' itself and related topics such as Tripartite Pact.
I have posted on the 'discussion page' shared by these topics, identifying the incorrect statements and using respected documentation to prove them.
There has been no response nor dialogue. Even when I edit the page using documentation where the original author does not, it is my work that is deleted instead of theirs
You can't ask for more proof, and convenience for that matter, than word for word quotes including page numbers from the same respected encyclopedic assembly of ww2 historical sources:
"The Oxford Companion to WWII" General Editor I.C.B. Dear Consultant Editor M.R.D Foot Oxford New York Oxford University Press 1995
Please advise. Befuddler 09:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- You should always examine edit summaries and page history. I don't know whether you did that or not, but if you had, you would have seen perfectly acceptable rationales for two reversions here and here. I have just reverted your second addition to Tripartite Pact for its inappropriate style and absence of citations. It is, for better or worse, OK to edit while still a novice (though it always preferable to learn abut policies, guidelines, and process first) but one should not complain if those edits get reverted. On an open wiki such as WP, any and all material can and will be edited without mercy. Straighforward reversion doesn't really tend to warrant much, if any, discussion; but since you mention it, the editor who reverted your edits raised the issue on your talk page and I don't see a reply there. Anyway, I left you a "welcome template" to provide some important and useful reading material. Incidentally; I refactored your comment here by moving your sig to the end of the post, where it should be. Adrian M. H. 17:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC
Thank you Adrian. I hope to find time to learn how to more properly use the edit feature. As for my 'talk page', I'm not sure what you mean by that. Where? I have engaged in the 'discussion' section for the topic "Axis Pact", although there has been no sourced 'debate' so to speak, to counter my proofs. Only comments that because something is commonly repeated it must be so.
I am hoping to learn how to prove to whomever does the edits for said document under search for 'Axis Pact', why the existing document is a deliberate undefined misleading of omitted historical points and facts to make the reader assume a contrary over-simplification of the topic. No less than that which leaves so many today still believing Iraq was behind 9/11. Just because so many repeated the same original mistake, did not make it true. Any help would be appreciated. Am looking for tutorial section now. Apparently using actual encyclopedia quotes to prove existing commentary undefined, incomplete and deliberately misleading is not permitted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Befuddler (talk • contribs) 04:46, 31 October 2007
- Original synthesis of existing information is indeed not permissible. If you believe you've found flaws in a historical document, see if you can find, for example, scholarly or critical writings which have been fact-checked or peer-reviewed which agree with you. You may then certainly use that material, attributing that viewpoint to the writer. You also have the option, if no such material exists, of submitting your own findings to relevant journals or the like for peer review. What you may not do, however, is publish your conclusions on Misplaced Pages if they have not been published in a reliable publication. Find (or make) peer-reviewed and published material first, then and only then may it be used as a source here. That is a fundamental part of our verifiability requirement. Seraphimblade 05:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand. Is not actually quoting from a most well-known ww2 encyclopedia considered fact-checking the edits offered? For example. When discussing ww2 in terms of Germany, Russia and Japan, we pointed out that the 'Soviet-Japanese Friendship/Neutrality/Non-Aggression Pacts' had to be included no less than the 'Anti-Comintern' and 'Tripartite Pacts', yet it keeps getting deleted out. It's not like we made it up, we proved it was an actual treaty of the period and that it was not only politically but strategically critical to how ww2 went. Yet it keeps getting deleted out. Same thing with proving word for word quotes from numerous sources including encyclopedias, the reason even western historians agree was why the Japanese Prime Minister took the drastic measure of dissolving his own government to ensure that Empire did not attack Russia. None of this was conjecture. None of it coming from any disputed revisionist author or source.
I don't know how much more 'peer-reviewed' you can get in regards to ww2 than The Oxford Companion to WWII Encyclopedia which lists untold numbers of the most respected (western/english at least) historians.
Even when I tried to point out the Misplaced Pages distinction between 'attack' and 'defense' military alliances, something put up by Misplaced Pages itself as a definition, it is also inevitably deleted, obviously because it prove it is the author, not the editors, who were making unsubstantiated comments.
When addressed in the discussion areas, all we get is 'well everyone we know says its so'. By that logic wikipedia should take down all it's exposes on historical corrections we've lived through through the centuries. By that logic wikipedia should not point out the Vikings were in fact the first Europeans to 'discover' the Americas eventhough the vast majority of books still in print say it was Colombus.
This has gotten so bad, I am one of the last teachers in my school division permitting students to use wikipedia as a source for their school-work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Befuddler (talk • contribs) 01:52, 3 November 2007
- I think you should take this to the more appropriate venue of WP:RSN. Please remember to sign your comments. Adrian M. H. 08:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Editor assistance requested
Resolved – -ish. Article deletion is one way of fixing it, I guess. Adrian M. H. 00:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I made an article for my virtual flight club the Massachusetts flying club, a while back. On september 4th it was edited to display untrue and malicious information about my flight club.
It was edited by a user by the name of FSTG . FSTG (FSTopgun) is also the name of the server which hosts my flightclub.
I have spoken with the owner of the server who's name was edited into the article, and he has said that he cannot do anything without a name or an IP. If we could get the IP of the user FSTG, or even the first two sets of mumbers if Privacy is an issue, than we could solve this issue privately with the Transition gaming server.
Thank you
68.239.12.96 17:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm assuming that you're talking about the Massachusetts flying club article? And I think your request is that we give you User:FSTG's IP number, (correct me if I'm wrong). However, this is not something we can do, for obvious privacy reasons, and while I can check, I'm pretty sure not even the first few numbers can be given out. I'm sorry that the article was edited negatively, but in the future, you can ask someone to revert the changes (if they are not sourced, cited, and neutral), or you can do it yourself. However, you may wish to review the conflict of interest guideline, since you say it is "your" flight club. A conflict of interest arises when editors close to the subject edit the article, as it is rather difficult to remain neutral. It may be a good idea to have a neutral, non-involved editor work on any future major editing of the article, to avoid any potential issues with COI. Hope that helps explain things, Ariel♥Gold 17:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- That's right. We do not provide IPs of registered editors (obviously, non-registered editors have their IPs listed in the history, which is required to meet parts of the GFDL that require some form of attribution). We have a system in place that allows certain trusted admins to cross-check IPs in certain specific circumstances, but this is not one of those cases. Adrian M. H. 18:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Looking at FSTG's edits, he seems just a garden-variety vandal who should be reverted and warned. --CliffC 00:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- That's right. We do not provide IPs of registered editors (obviously, non-registered editors have their IPs listed in the history, which is required to meet parts of the GFDL that require some form of attribution). We have a system in place that allows certain trusted admins to cross-check IPs in certain specific circumstances, but this is not one of those cases. Adrian M. H. 18:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Editor needs either handholding or something
Here may not be the appropriate place for this comment but the Help desk didn't seem appropriate and neither did an administrator noticeboard (at least not yet), so maybe someone here can address it or suggest a better place.
On vandal patrol I came across an IP (User talk:71.238.68.127) who might turn out to be a constructive editor or might be headed for a long-term ban. His latest edit is not vandalism but is totally inappropriate even for a talk page. Some of his past contributions were vandalism and he was blocked. Some of his contributions appear to be good faith edits but fail due to POV or lack of references.
He is often uncivil and needs a good lecturing for that. He has been given some advice on providing sources for his edits but still doesn't do a good job.
At first glance he is a newcomer so WP:BITE would apply, but there are indications that he has been around a while and might just have a new IP address. If that is the case, he might conceivably be a WP:SOCK of a previously banned user.
This IP needs early intervention and I don't know how to do it. Any ideas? Any volunteers? Sbowers3 18:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I hate to say it, but I don't think that there is very much that anyone can do in marginal cases. Perpetual and serious problems are actually easier to tackle with blocks. I would suggest that you keep half an eye on it for a little while, although it is impossible to say how long it might be before a new IP is assigned if his ISP account is dynamic, as most are. Dynamic IPs make long-term monitoring of talk page warnings and blocks impossible. Any further bad edits are likely to be reverted by someone anyway. Adrian M. H. 23:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- From his contribs he appears to be a static IP. His record goes back about a month and his edits are all in similar areas. I'll keep an eye on him. I just wish I knew what to say to try to correct problems before they occur instead of reverting and blocking afterward. Sbowers3 00:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Citing references
Resolved – Marking resolved in absence of any further contribs. Adrian M. H. 01:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I uploaded information to the John Dillinger topic, and the references I cited were eye-witness reports. The eye-witnesses were myself and another man who witnessed the event in 1953. I am unable to cite any other references. These references were not accepted, and I do not know what to do. The item refers the the so-called "myth" that John Dillinger's unusually large penis was at one time exhibited in a museum. My friend and I know that this is not a myth, since we saw for ourselves the specimen in question, labeled as such, in the Medical Museum of the U.S. Navy, then a separate part of the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC. I would like to have this material published in the Misplaced Pages to set the matter straight. Over the years numerous articles have appeared in various publications, claiming that the story is not true, yet we know it to be true. In support of this information I am willing to undergo a polygraph test.
Here is the material as I uploaded it:
Dillinger's large, preserved penis was seen in the summer of 1953 by Charles Wiedemann and Gregory De Lorenzo of Clifton, NJ. The young men were aged 17 and 18, and had recently graduated from high school. They traveled together on a vacation trip to Washington, DC, where they visited many historic sites, including the Medical Museum of the U.S. Navy, which at that time was in its own building, part of the Smithsonian Institute. The museum displayed numerous medical specimens, such as the uterus of an elderly woman who had died with a dead fetus in her uterus, and other medical curiosities. The most striking and memorable exhibit was a glass container containing a very large penis. The tubular jar-like container was lying horizontally on a shelf. Next to it was a card containing this information: "Preserved penis removed after death from the body of criminal John Dillinger. It is said that the size of this organ caused harm to several women with whom Mr. Dillinger had relations. This preserved penis is in its flaccid state, but it is known that a large penis does not increase much in length when erect." Neither Dr. Wiedemann nor Mr. De Lorenzo, who are now in their seventies, can recall the exact size, but they believe it was in the range of 14" to 16". They remember that the information on the card explained how the Navy came in possession of the organ, but they do not recall the explanation.
References: Dr. Charles L. Wiedemann, eye witness and author of this report. Current address: (Home) 135 Kings Hwy, Hackettstown, NJ 07840, (Office) 110 Mill Street, Hackettstown, NJ 07840. Mr. Gregory de Lorenzo, 15 Homestead Street, Clifton, NJ. No other references can be cited, nor are they needed, since these two people are eye witnesses who remember the details given in the report. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seaweedy (talk • contribs) 06:28, 29 October 2007
- Please read WP:V and WP:OR. These two core policies will explain in why you cannot use yourself as an eye-witness source and why original research is not accepted. Then read WP:RS to understand what are and are not reliable sources that can be used for verification. Those three pages explain this better than I could here without writing an lengthy essay. Adrian M. H. 12:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, and WP does not do polygraph tests! Adrian M. H. 12:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Help
Hello,
I have put up some pages for various religious scholars yet have run into some issues. I was wondering if you could help me resolve them to prevent page deletion. I am having issues with 5 of the pages I have put up
1. Anne C. Klein 2. Peggy Levitt 3. Rev. Dr. Deborah Little 4. Linda Barnes 5. Lou Cristillo
The problems that exist are
citing notability ( what does this mean?) conflict of interest as well as copy and pasting issues
could you help me to fix these issues?
Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgandco (talk • contribs) 16:13, 29 October 2007
- Briefly: Notability is a core guideline that all articles must meet. COI is an editorial guideline of which all editors who have any connection with a subject must be aware. Adrian M. H. 16:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- To expand for Adrian, and to explain perhaps the most important issue you mentioned, the copyright policy is quite clear: You may not copy and paste any portion of another website or page to create (or add to) a Misplaced Pages article. This is for legal reasons, which I'm sure you'll understand when reading the copyright policy (click on the blue words to read what they are about). Now, to expand above: Conflict of interest is when you create, or edit, an article about yourself, your family, company, product, or friends, as you would likely be unable to edit neutrally. Neutrality is one of the core policies of Misplaced Pages, as is verifiability. Verifiability means that any information given in an article must be verifiable with reliable, third-party sources. Reliable sources are not: Blogs, forums, fan site, personal sites, MySpace, etc. Reliable sources are: News article, professional journals, magazines, TV news websites, or websites that perform fact checking to verify the items they report, to name a few. Without sources and verifiability, information is classified as original research, and not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Additionally, there are many notability guidelines, that cover everything from people to music, to academics. Basically notability means that something is important enough that the media has taken an interest in it, and has written about it, in more than one news article. Most important people are written about and reported on, so when notability isn't an issue, the sources to cite are quite easy to obtain. Hope this helps explain the issues! Ariel♥Gold 16:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Editing assistance with a revert
Resolved – No further activity since talk page discussion. Adrian M. H. 15:24, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I recently noticed that the user Tdjohnson reverted a section I had created on the Peru State College entry. It was a section about controversy regarding the student newspaper, or rather the dismissal of two advisers to that newspaper under questionable circumstances. The user commented the revert by saying "Removed speculative and unnecessary information regarding student run newspaper".
Now the information wasn't speculative, as I had several cited references supporting the information posted. I also did my best to keep the information neutral, which was definitely not the easiest because I am not only an alumni of Peru State College, but I also worked on the student newspaper in question as well, though I had already graduated by the time the second incident took place.
Now whether the information is unnecessary is up for debate, and I would like to hear another editor's opinion on that matter. I feel the information should be posted on Misplaced Pages, and if not on the Peru State College entry, then it should be somewhere. If there already is a place for information of that nature, please point me to it.
I also believe that the user in question may have removed the information to preserve an image that Peru State College, and its president, is attempting to build, and this kind of information would probably tarnish that image. I feel that Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a forum for accurate information, not a marketing front, and right now much of the Peru State College entry looks like it was copied verbatim from the school's web page, though I've been working to change that to replace it with verifiable, cited information.
Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Arcturis 17:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, this is kind of a refreshing change from what I often read, by which I mean that this addition should not really have been reverted! It was, in parts, well referenced; where it fell short was in its lack of a couple of really crucial refs for the most controversial statements, such as the first para. Additionally, use of the phrase "appear to coincide" was a bad idea; it's not properly verifiable (synthesis) and it's "weasely". Rather than be reverted, it should have been cleaned up and given fact tags as necessary. Discuss it on the article's talk page before trying to add it again. Adrian M. H. 18:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Help With Resolving Editing War - UST Global
Resolved – Adrian M. H. 16:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I would sure appreciate your help and input.
I was the original founder of a company today known as UST Global (previously known as US Technology Resources)
I recently initiated arbitration against the company for payment for my ownership interest and won the arbitration. One of the points in the final ruling from the arbitrators was their recognition that I founded the company in 1998.
Every time I enter several factual points that are based on a) tax records of the company b) company records c) the Arbitrators final ruling, an employee of the company immediately removes these posts.
I have tried writing to this employee, usually without response. I did finally get 1 response (which he then used UNDO 2 minutes later) to state that he is simply taking orders from someone else and only doing his job.
The posts I keep trying to insert are:
- That I founded the company in 1998. - That a company named Magnecomp invested in the company in 1999, and at this time a gentlemen named G.A. Menon became the company's non-executive chairman.
Within an hour or 2 of posting these factual points, this individual clicks the UNDO button.
Can you help me to try to resolve. The company is large and is probably going public. I would like to try to resolve without arbitration. Also, they do not respond to my repeated requests for a discussion.
Thank you for your reply.
Sincerely,
Stephen Ross Stevejross 21:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- I need to ask a couple of quick questions first in order to get a better picture: Did you observe the requirements of verifiability by citing your sources? Did you know that editing any article about a subject with which you have a connection is discouraged because of the handicap that it can place on neutrality and verifiability? Adrian M. H. 23:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Dear Adrian,
Thank you for your response. Someone from Misplaced Pages has stepped in and resolved the issue as there was a conflict of interest.
I thank you very much for your help and assistance.
Sincerely,
Steve Ross Stevejross 14:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply, Steve. Adrian M. H. 16:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
"Hydraulic Torque Wrench" - Persistant Spammer
USER - Industrial Torque Wrench repeatedly removes administrator suggestions for clean-up and reverted the entry to initial marketing commercial website and blocking competitor photos limiting the entry to proprietary and commercial pictures of his company's product.
User CONTINUES removing pictures of competitor products and limiting the photos to a single manufacturer of the product. Photo has also been replaced because user inserted a picture with a trademarked name on a banner implying endorsement of their product. User has also been reported for link "TTT (to the top) bouncing" to place their commercial website at the top of the reference page. User's reference link is a commercial website promoting a product that he is affiliated with and not an educational website or example showing how the product functions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smigler (talk • contribs)
- What makes you think that this user is intentionally adding images of his/her product? I've looked at the photos and it's not obvious to me what company the pictures are of. Try to give users a little leeway when assessing their intentions. As for the reorganization of the references section, you've got a good point. It seems a little odd. Just move the reference back and explain what you've done in the edit summary. A few side notes: I noticed that you weren't signing your posts on User talk:Industrial Torque Tools either. Use four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your message. Also please don't ask other users to reveal their name. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 12:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Boatshed Listing
Resolved – through speedy deletion. Adrian M. H. 15:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Dear Misplaced Pages,
We placed a definition of Boatshed.com on wikipedia some months ago with a description of the new methods and techniques we have introduced into the boat and yachsales business.
Our posting was subsequently removed by an editor, we recieved no notification of this or the reasons why.
A new company that has entered the market and is try to establish itself using many of the ideas we have have been using for many years does have an entry and this has not been removed.
Can you explain and offer any help how "RightBoat" has managed to retain an entry whilst ours does not appear.
Any assistance you could offer would be gratefully received and thank you for your ongoing work and efforts on your vert informative site.
Best Regards
Neil Chapman MD Boatshed.com The world's largest Yacht Brokerage Company
"Life's better on a boat"
boatshed24.144.120.77 19:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- I added a CSD A7 to RightBoat. First time I've ever done, so perhaps other editors can tell me if I was correct.
- Most likely the reason your article was deleted is the same reason that RightBoat should also be deleted. There is nothing in the article to suggest that it is notable, and there are no references to verify the information. If your company is famous enough that newspaper articles have been written about it, then it may meet the requirements of notability. And in that case you can use the newspaper articles as references so that other editors can verify the information. Sbowers3 22:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- <start rant> Misuse of Misplaced Pages really gets my hackles up. This is, as it says in the tagline, an encyclopædia. Which means, among other things, that it is not here to provide free webspace for advertorial. We are here solely to build a verifiable, factual, and neutral compendium of the notable aspects of academic, scientific, historical, and cultural knowledge. Incidentally, if those of us who regularly nominate articles for speedy removal were to notify their creators every time, it would double our workload: we have no specific obligation to do so. The number of article deletions per day are in the four-figure region.<end rant/> Adrian M. H. 22:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Talk:Video game#Platforms
I don't know if this has progressed to this level yet, but I want to resolve this as quickly as possible. This has arisen after a short edit war. SharkD 02:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- I see a normal and largely civil talk page debate about how to improve an article, so I'm not sure where the issue is. If you are seeking some form of DR, it doesn't need it. Adrian M. H. 15:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Request for help
I have been trying to clean up the page for Young Americans for Freedom. I noticed that the national organization does not seem to exist anymore. Its website has not been updated for years, and there is no record of it having done any action whatsoever. Traditionally the national body throughout the 60s-80s was very involved.
Today, a number of college students have started campus organizations carrying the YAF name. These are independent and take no directions from a national body.
There are a few things I find problematic about any claim that a national YAF still exists. On the blog of Michigan State University YAF's president Kyle Bristow (www.spartanspectator.com), he has claimed that the national YAF's board of advisors includes people such as Vice President Dick Cheney. However, MSU-YAF has been invovled in a number of extreme events that are incompatable with the views of many of these so-called advisors. For example, Bristow recently brought a known holocaust denier to campus along with a professed skinhead and racist. Normally, a national body with prominent individuals, who could be damaged by association with this, would have issued a condemnation or denied that MSU-YAF reflected the views of Young Americans for Freedom and its advisory board. However, there was no such action and I find this to be yet another sign that no national body exists anymore.
Some individual at the IP address 64.25.200.19 has been reverting all of my edits. At first, he suggested that my edits were POV. I therefore spent time going through the entire YAF page and removing any POV references. Yet, he still reverts my edits. His IP comes from Michigan and I think he's probably a YAF member since most YAF activity comes from Michigan Universities.
Anyway, I have made my edits NPOV and this individual keeps deleting any reference to a national body not existing. This has gotten to the point of vandalism. He continues to furnish no proof that the national body exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamwb (talk • contribs) 22:28, 31 October 2007
- This boils down to a conventional and fairly simple case of verifiability and O.R.. The usual problems, then! Points to bare in mind when dealing with issues like this:
- Be strict and consistent: use {{fact}} or {{dubious}} where they are applicable, and tags like {{refimprove}} if needed as a means to encourage citations to appear. Treat your own claims as you would anyone else's.
- Remember that the responsibility for referencing lies with the editor who wishes to keep the content (which includes you if you add or change any content).
- Discuss uncited claims if sources are not forthcoming. If they are still not forthcoming, get rid of them. Follow Jimbo's oft-quoted advice about that. Unverified material does not belong here and if we cannot include verified information, then we just have to leave it out.
- If the counter-claim is not backed up by RS, it is no better than the original claim or any other uncited claim.
- Absence of activity is not enough; it needs a source (preferably more than one) that explicitly states what you are claiming. Same goes for the counter-claim.
- Hope that helps. Make sure that you read those two policies thoroughly, plus their talk pages if possible. Adrian M. H. 23:05, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Assistance needed
Note: This was created as a separate section, but this deals with the same dispute, so I moved it here. J-ſtanContribs 02:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a major dispute at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Young_Americans_for_Freedom
One user, Adamwb, is ignoring policy and continues to vandalize and edit with unsourced information and when he does provide a source, it's from a personal blog with a biased political agenda. He will not listen nor compromise.
64.7.187.207 02:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, it seems Adamwb has violated the 3rr, and has been warned as such. If he reverts more than 3 times in the next 24 hours, let us know. J-ſtanContribs 02:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Use of images dispute in Boxer (dog) Article
Resolved – Adrian M. H. 15:12, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Yesterday I went in and edited the Boxer (dog) article, which was glutted with images. I removed all the seemingly extranous and redunant images per WP:IMAGE. Since then, one particular editor continues to insist on putting them back Medusa911 (140.168.69.130). I remove again, he puts back. First under his IP, now under his new user account. The first revert I let go and reexplained again why they were removed in the edit summary. I've since left vandalism notices after each revert. Now he's reverting and leaving vandalism notices on my page as well. Even as I type this, he's done another one (which another editor undid)
Now, on reading up more tonight, I realize his reverts, while annoying, may not have been vandalism by the Misplaced Pages standard, so those notices may not have been appropriate. Moreso, I admit that on my part I've let myself get into a day long revert war over this. It's tiresome and childish, so now I'm asking for assistance on this issue. Is the article glutted with images, or are they all appropriate and relevant? If the removals were correct, how do we deal with this editor who seems determined to keep putting them back? Collectonian 04:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, that's not too bad. I often see far worse ratios than that. Of the three images in a row (in the previous version), you could keep one or two of them and possibly keep the last small image (of the dog jumping). The jumping pic looks a bit out of place down there, so a bit of repositioning would be welcome anyway. As for vandalism warnings, neither party should have applied any. I hope you didn't break 3RR either. Adrian M. H. 13:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Just to add my thoughts, I agree images should be added when they significantly increase a reader's understanding of the article, and provide context that can't be given otherwise. In the case of the images you removed, I think that at least two could (and should) be added back, the image of the white boxer, which illustrates a coloring not often seen in boxers, and the brindle male at 18 months, which shows quite nicely the conformation of the dog (which the image in the infobox doesn't do well). The black and white image of the row of dogs does nothing to increase the reader's understanding of the dogs, and the jumping dog doesn't, either. The image of the ear taping, well, I guess that's debatable, it does show the method used to make the ears stand up, so would classify as increasing the reader's understanding. I too, prefer to not see images used as purely decoration, but in this case, I do think that those two (or three) images serve a useful purpose in the article, especially the white boxer image, as I think the majority of readers think "boxer" and think of brown colors. I'd prefer to see those images replaced, right-aligned for uniformity and default image size. Just my opinion, of course. Ariel♥Gold 13:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- I agree on the white boxer image. I probably wouldn't have gotten so insistent if I hadn't let him push my buttons. Though he has now admitted on my talk page that the only one he really wants back is of the 18 month old boxer because it was HIS boxer that died. Collectonian 14:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- It looks good now. I noticed that another editor reinserted the B+W image, but I agree with his rationale about its relevance. It's not the prettiest image, but worth keeping. Adrian M. H. 15:12, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Royal Bank of Scotland - 'The Oil and Gas bank'
I recently attempted to add a controversy section to the RBS group page (as well as reference to it from the RBS page), but it was swiftly removed by user Harami2000. I added comments to the talk page to discuss the addition, and freely admitted that the tone of my additions was not unbalanaced, but that I expected them to be edited, not simply deleted. There has been no response. I think details of RBS's large investments in fossil fuels are worthy of appearing within the article, especially since this topic has been so newsworthy (numerous protests in October, 2007), but mainly as Misplaced Pages is meant to be a source of unbiased info, and potential RBS customers should be able to see where there money may be going. Presently both RBS pages are like corporate brochures. Templetongore 10:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- My $.02 for what it's worth: Your controversy section was fairly well referenced, which is a good first step. Your second sentence has problems with WP:Weasel ("seen by many"), NPOV ("overwhelming"), and is unreferenced. The whole section might or might not have a problem with undue weight - has this controversy had enough mention to be worth including or was it just one isolated protest that garnered little attention? Your sentence in the lead of the RBS page certainly suffers from undue weight. It might be worth including somewhere in the article, but not in the lead. Sbowers3 11:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- The protests were certainly well covered in the UK press, but even if there were no protests, I feel that an article about a financial institution should include at least a mention of it's investment profile, especially when the investments in question are of the type that certain people may wish to distance themselves from. People like to know what their money is being used for, I think, and Misplaced Pages can help provide this information. If a company invested in, say, animal testing or arms, people would want to know. Oil and gas are certainly not in that league, but ethically minded consumers would want to know. For this reason, I made a reference to the controversy from the RBS article, but I agree - it was too prominant. Somewhere else would be better. Templetongore 12:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- I just want to pick up on your comment about what people would like to know, largely for the benefit of any new editor reading this. As an encyclopædia and nothing else, WP is not here to inform the public about consumer issues and to do so in any way risks making WP inherently biased. Whatever a company may be responsible for, we can only report what has been reliably reported elsewhere – per WP's requirements of neutrality and verifiability, and its position as a tertiary information source (like any encyclopædia) – and crucially, our reason for so doing must be solely encyclopædic and must be given the least amount of space that is required for the bare facts. Whether there were protests or not is not the primary point; the most important factor is that the issue/controversy must have been reported in independent (from the subject) media sources; with the emphasis on the plural when any kind of controversy is at work. We often say that WP is not a news service (in fact, that's official) but is here to collate information that will be relevant and informative in 10, 20, even 50 years' time. My waffle is not aimed at criticising your edit, however. It was a good faith addition and Sbowers has explained its issues very well. Adrian M. H. 13:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. WP should not offer any judgement on any issue. However, as a financial organisation, the RBS group invests money - that's what they do - so surely the manner in which they do it is valid in an article about them? The Triodos Bank page includes information about their investments, as does the Co-operative Bank article. In fact, this is featured right in the introduction to both articles. Banks invest money to make money, the way they invest it seems, to me, to be an important piece of information. I agree that WP should not be judgemental in any way - many people think that there is nothing wrong with investing in oil and gas, and that is fine - but just because something may divide opinion surely does not mean that it should be omitted? If this was the case, WP would be alot smaller than it is now. To answer your other points, the status of RBS as the 'Oil and Gas Bank' has been reported in independent news sources ( The Herald and The Scotsman - two highly respected papers in the UK) and I am pretty certain that, not only is the issue of fossil fuel extraction pertinent today, it will almost certainly be of historical importance in 20 or 50 years time - either as the source of great social conflict or as an issue whose importance had been previously vastly exagerrated. Templetongore 09:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood my point to some degree. You have oversimplified the issue of inclusion, which is complex. I won't bother to go over that in full because it would double the length of this page, but I recommend that you re-examine your addition and do some more studying; look at what was acceptable about it and what was not, compare it to how things are reported in some controversial FAs (I know there are a few), read the essays (some of which are particularly useful), guidelines, etc. I would expect the Co-op's investment policy to be mentioned given how noteworthy and well reported it is, but it still has to be handled in the right way, of which neutrality is just one facet. Those sources are fine, but they must be used properly and carefully. Have a go at rewriting it, even if you just do it in a sandbox or something to avoid any premature reversions. Adrian M. H. 12:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, I will try again when I find the time. It just seems a little uneven when additions that cast a negative shadow over an organisation or individual come under such scrutiny (as I believe they should), while those that are more positive are rarely contested - this is only based on my own experiences, of course. Templetongore 12:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Most things come down to references. Statements with valid references are harder to delete. So add a reference to your second sentence. (Also remove the NPOV "overwhelming".) And perhaps add a second reference about the protests to demonstrate more notability. With solid references, other editors should not delete it. Sbowers3 14:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've taken your suggestions and changed the paragraph and added some more references. Templetongore 14:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
My edits keep getting removed
I am trying to post links to a site that is a great resource for biographical information and links to specific works of various artists. But whenever I add it to a relevant link, for example I added a link to Magritte's original sketch of the pipe, and his biography under the posting about his painting, "The Treachery of Images" (http://en.wikipedia.org/The_Treachery_Of_Images).
Why was it removed? Thanks! jk —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkcollection (talk • contribs) 19:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm guessing that your edits are being removed, because combined with your username, it would possibly seem to others that you have created an account solely for the purpose of adding links to advertise your site, http://collectionnewyork.com/. The URL itself doesn't really say what the purpose of the page is, other than to have links to images of some artwork, so it doesn't provide a lot of explanation as to the purpose of the link. While I would not go so far as to say the links are completely unhelpful, but with regards to the Magritte page, the explanation for reversion was "(it's not a sketch for the painting, which was painted many years earlier)", so it appears an editor doesn't feel the link provides anything the article itself cannot. Please review the external links guideline, and Misplaced Pages's SPAM guideline. I hope this helps make it a bit more clear why it is likely your links are being removed, and I'd suggest that you post on article talk pages, giving the link to the page, and explaining what you feel it adds to the article's context/content that isn't already there. This will allow other editors to review it and give input. Also, welcome to Misplaced Pages! Ariel♥Gold 19:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
User:Gnome Economics
I've had just about enough of this guy and I no longer feel like engaging him. He patronises me and insults me and blanks my own talk page: . OK, maybe I'm not without fault here myself but I am working hard to write an encyclopedia. This account has only been around for a few days but it's clear the editor knows the ropes. I wonder why he apparently needs a sockpuppet account. I'm not well and don't feel I can deal with this on my own. I am not infallible, but he seems to behave as if every other editor should be. I find this unnecessarily confrontational and in breach of WP:AGF & WP:CIVIL --Rodhullandemu (talk - contribs) 20:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- This is being handled at the cross-post site, WP:ANI#I feel harrassed. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Mobarak Hossain Khan: Musicologist, Music Researcher, Musician and Writer
Mobarak Hossain Khan is a music researcher, music expert and musician of repute. He plays 'Surbahar', a string instrument, meant for classical music. He comes of the great family musicians of Bangladesh, which produces a galaxy of illustrious classical musicians, like, Ustad (Maestro of Music) Dr. Alauddin Khan, Ustad Ayet Ali Khan (his father), Ustad Dr. Ali Akbar Khan, Pandit Ravi Shankar, Ustad Bahadur Hossain Khan, Ustad Khadem Hossain Khan, Ustad Abed Hossain Khan, Ustad Mir Kashem Khan, Ustad Phuljhuri Khan, Ustad Khurshid Khan, Ustad Shahadat Hossain Khan, Annapurna, Reenat Fauzia and many others.
He has written more than 100 books, three of which are in English (published from India). His recent publications on music are: i. Sangeetsadhak Abhidhan (Dictionary of Musicians). ii. Amar Sangeet Swajan (My Music Kindred). Bangladesh Muslim Sangeetsadhak (Muslim Music Devotees of Bangladesh). He is the third son of Ustad Ayet Ali Khan and nephew of Ustad Alauddin Khan. He has been decorated with the highest State Awards of the country¬'The Independence Day Award' (Shwadhinata Padak) and 'Twenty-first February Award' (Ekushey Padak)and 'Bangla Academy Literary Award' for his commendable contribution in the field of music. He has also been adorned with quite a number of other wards. His article on 'Music of Bangladesh' has been published in the Swedish Encyclopedia. He has also contributed to the 'Banglapedia' (the National Encyclopedia of Bangladesh) published by the Asiatic Society of Bangladesh. He is the former Director General of National Academy of Fine and Performing Arts (Bangladesh Shilpakala Academy) and former Chairman of Nazrul Institute named after the Poet-Laureate of Bangladesh Kazi Nazrul Islam. He is also the President of the Bangladesh Chapter of International Council for Traditional Music (ICTM), the headquarters being in the U.S.A. and also the President of Ustad Ayet Ali Khan Academy of Music. He has served Radio Bangladesh and former Radio Pakistan for long 30 years. He is also the Secretary General of the International PEN Bangladesh Chapter, headquarters being in London, U.K.
He has visited many countries including U.S.A, U. K. China, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, North Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, Hong Kong, Singapore, Spain, Kuwait, Iran, India and Pakistan as a leader of cultural delegation and also as an expert on Radio, Saarc and Unesco.
He is a visiting lecturer of College of Music and associated with the Department of Drama and Music of Dhaka University and Rajshahi University.
He is an M. A. in History.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mobarakhossainkhan (talk • contribs) 23:57, 1 November 2007
- Two of Misplaced Pages's most important policies are notability and verifiability. A subject must be sufficiently notable to be worth including in the encyclopedia and that notability must be able to be verified through references to reliable sources.
- Put simply, if there are newspaper articles with enough information to write about a subject, then that subject is notable and those articles can verify the information in the Misplaced Pages article.
- If you cannot find newspaper web sites that provide information for an article, then the subject is not notable or verifiable and almost certainly will be deleted. So your first job is to go find references. Sbowers3 13:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Sending an article of a reknowned person for inclusion in wikipedia
Dear wikipedia,
I would highly appreciate if you could kindly attach the following article on the above mentioned subject in your esteem 'wikipedia'. Your quick and immediate response is solicited. Thank you and warm regards
Tareef Hayat KHAN
Mobarak Hossain Khan: Musicologist, Music Researcher, Musician and Writer
Mobarak Hossain Khan is a music researcher, music expert and musician of repute. He plays 'Surbahar', a string instrument, meant for classical music. He comes of the great family musicians of Bangladesh, which produces a galaxy of illustrious classical musicians, like, Ustad (Maestro of Music) Dr. Alauddin Khan, Ustad Ayet Ali Khan (his father), Ustad Dr. Ali Akbar Khan, Pandit Ravi Shankar, Ustad Bahadur Hossain Khan, Ustad Khadem Hossain Khan, Ustad Abed Hossain Khan, Ustad Mir Kashem Khan, Ustad Phuljhuri Khan, Ustad Khurshid Khan, Ustad Shahadat Hossain Khan, Annapurna, Reenat Fauzia and many others.
He has written more than 100 books, three of which are in English (published from India). His recent publications on music are: i. Sangeetsadhak Abhidhan (Dictionary of Musicians). ii. Amar Sangeet Swajan (My Music Kindred). Bangladesh Muslim Sangeetsadhak (Muslim Music Devotees of Bangladesh). He is the third son of Ustad Ayet Ali Khan and nephew of Ustad Alauddin Khan. He has been decorated with the highest State Awards of the country¬'The Independence Day Award' (Shwadhinata Padak) and 'Twenty-first February Award' (Ekushey Padak)and 'Bangla Academy Literary Award' for his commendable contribution in the field of music. He has also been adorned with quite a number of other wards. His article on 'Music of Bangladesh' has been published in the Swedish Encyclopedia. He has also contributed to the 'Banglapedia' (the National Encyclopedia of Bangladesh) published by the Asiatic Society of Bangladesh. He is the former Director General of National Academy of Fine and Performing Arts (Bangladesh Shilpakala Academy) and former Chairman of Nazrul Institute named after the Poet-Laureate of Bangladesh Kazi Nazrul Islam. He is also the President of the Bangladesh Chapter of International Council for Traditional Music (ICTM), the headquarters being in the U.S.A. and also the President of Ustad Ayet Ali Khan Academy of Music. He has served Radio Bangladesh and former Radio Pakistan for long 30 years. He is also the Secretary General of the International PEN Bangladesh Chapter, headquarters being in London, U.K.
He has visited many countries including U.S.A, U. K. China, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, North Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, Hong Kong, Singapore, Spain, Kuwait, Iran, India and Pakistan as a leader of cultural delegation and also as an expert on Radio, Saarc and Unesco.
He is a visiting lecturer of College of Music and associated with the Department of Drama and Music of Dhaka University and Rajshahi University.
He is an M. A. in History.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mobarakhossainkhan (talk • contribs) 23:57, 1 November 2007
- See previous. Sbowers3 13:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Edit Help
Hello,
i am unable to find any place where i can ask question about article editing, so i ask here if someone could maybe point me into the right direction or could even answer my question.
I want to add something like hints to an article, somthing like the standart contents box on every wiki article, where i can click hide or show, to make text pop up or dissapear. thx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.178.169.122 (talk) 14:17, 2 November 2007
- Without details or the name of the article in question, it is hard to give you a direct answer. First, I'd point you to the manual of style, the layout guide, article development and how to edit. All those aside, it would depend completely on the type of content you wish to add, and if it would be relevant, or even appropriate to the article. Generally the table of contents should not be changed from standard, unless it is outside of the mainspace (i.e. your userpage, or an essay you've written). There is a "show/hide" box, but again, these aren't generally used in article space without a very good reason, if at all. I'd suggest that you post on the article's talk page the ideas you have, and allow those familiar with the subject give you input on what may be the best way to go about doing what you've got in mind. Without knowing details, I'm afraid I can't give you much more advice than that. Hope that helps somewhat! Ariel♥Gold 14:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi,
- thx for the answer, but i am not talking about any specific article. I just wanted to know how (technical question) i can add sutch show/hide boxes into an normal wiki article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.178.169.122 (talk) 15:31, 2 November 2007
- There are probably only two good reasons for applying collapsible JS in mainspace: collapsing very long data tables or stacking groups of navigational templates at the bottom of articles. Either way, we already have established ways of doing that. We are not going to start adding pop-up comment boxes all over the place. Technical questions such as this can be asked at the Village Pump Adrian M. H. 20:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
NPR story about Misplaced Pages Vision map
I heard a story on NPR radio 11/1/07 talking Misplaced Pages Vision online map - said "Misplaced Pages Vision is a new online map which spins across the globe, tracking the changes people make to the encyclopedia. You can see what was edited, when and where."
I cannot find any reference to Misplaced Pages Vision map on Misplaced Pages.com. Does it exist? If so, where? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.232.116.202 (talk) 14:44, 2 November 2007
- From what I understand, this is in no way affiliated with WikiMedia, or the WikiMedia foundation. The software works by tracking IPs on a map similar to Google Maps, but obviously only shows edits made by anonymous editors. The software (use at your own risk) can be found here Ariel♥Gold 14:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Neat! Almost mesmerizing. Sbowers3 20:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Edit Wars in the world of X-Men...
Over the past few months, there have been several back and forth edits, by several users (myself included), to the article...
http://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_X-Men_teams
Basically, what the edits concern are the codenames of several former "X-Men" characters, all of whom recently became members of a completely different superhero team, the "New Warriors." For example, former X-Man "Jubilee" is now the New Warrior "Wondra".
Many people, like myself, feel that since this article is a list of X-Men team members, it would be incorrect to list these characters by their New Warriors codenames, and that their X-Men codenames should be the ones which are primarily used, leaving their New Warriors codenames to be mentioned in the footnotes. Others however, believe that since their New Warrior codenames are more current, albeit almost completely unrealated to their tenures as X-Men, that those names should be used.
I tried to start up a dialogue about this quite a while ago in the article's discussion page (titled "Wondra & Decibel"), but for a long time I got no response, and the edit wars were continued by other miscellaneous users. I recently got a response from another user, on the opposite side of the debate from me, and we've been writing lengthy arguements and counter-arguements to one another in the discussion page for the past few days. Thus far it's remained mostly civil, though a bit heated on both sides, but I fear that it will soon escalate to something a bit more than a heated discussion, and that the edit wars will just stupidly chug onward, if some official third-party perspective isn't offered soon.
There are clearly several users on both sides of the arguement participating in a massive multi-person edit war, and all I want is some sort of official resolution, so this can hopefully finally end. Is there anyone out there that can offer some assistance, or at least help me point this article in the right direction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.225.126 (talk) 06:06, 3 November 2007
- Perhaps listing the members of their respective team under their current name (for chronological purposes), and making mention of their name change would work. J-ſtanContribs 02:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
What comes after an Rfc?
I opened an Rfc for the pictures on the solar energy page. I found one picture in particular rather boring and figured it didn't deserve to be on the page let alone have the lead. Four out of five respondents to the Rfc also had a poor opinion of the picture. This is a relatively low volume of response but I figure 80% shows a clear consensus. I removed the picture from the lead but it was replaced by an anonymous editor who put the picture in the lead to start with. This editor has been a hostile observer of the page for the last few months. I'm sick and tired of the guy but the quality of the page has improved in spite of the harassment and thanks to some professional editing help.
I nominated the solar energy page for GA status today. The last time the article was nominated for GA status we failed due to over editing. I'm worried this situation could happen again because of picture switching disputes. I went through he Rfc process and it seems to have failed. What should I do next? Mrshaba 06:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- A picture in a Misplaced Pages Article is allowed to be in that article as long as it has relevance to the article, or the section, in some cases. The image you wanted to remove had great relevance to Solar Power. 199.125.109.56 has the right to place it back into the article. That being said, you also had the right to remove it in the first place. The real decision comes from the reason. You removed the picture because it was "boring". 199.125.109.56 restored it because it was relevant to the article. Misplaced Pages aims to become the largest source of encyclopedic information on the planet, and if the image added to the encyclopedic content of the article, it should not have been removed. I'm sorry, but 199.125.109.56 was right about this one. If you need more help on the matter, feel free to drop me a line on my talk page. Vistro 20:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like a second opinion. The picture under discussion is not only boring but many find it confusing and there are captivating and appropriate pictures to take its place. There are three reasons to replace the picture. Boring, confusing and outranked by good material. I'm not sure a picture with these qualities adds to the encyclopedic content of WP.
- Again - I went through he Rfc process and it seems to have failed. What should I do next? Mrshaba 03:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- You might want to take the IP to WP:ANI, as fighting consensus could be considered disruptive behavior. While sometimes those who go against consensus claim to have policy on their side, this seems like a clear cut case of WP:ILIKEIT. People think it illustrates the point clearly, which is OK, but it isn't backed up by policy or guidelines. Also, the IP seems to have the wrong idea about consensus, saying that "Consensus means either that everyone likes it or no one likes it." That rarely ever happens, so we go by an overwhelming majority system. If unanimity and consensus were synonymous, we'd have no admins, no crats, and we'd all be in need of a regular software upgrade. J-ſtanContribs 03:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- Again - I went through he Rfc process and it seems to have failed. What should I do next? Mrshaba 03:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Ryke Geerd Hamer
Hi! I have a problem with user:Zo'orIon, who made edits to the article Ryke Geerd Hamer, that contained threats or comments like "Added november, 1st., 2007:"... Furthermore that user complained about an edit by user:Huangdi (), although in my opinion that edit just enhances the phrase. Then there r many little changes by that user, that r unsourced and therefore questionable... I would be glad, if somebody could stop this upcoming edit-war before it begins. Maybe I should add this about my interests regarding this article: I personally wouldnt use Hamer's approach; I dont see, why his approach should be described in such a questionable way, and why mentally healthy adults should be protected against Hamer (my psychiatrists even enforced, that questionable people with questionable interests talked to me, while I was "psychotic"...)... --Homer Landskirty 08:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, while you were right to revert comments such as "There are more than 160 dead victims...", the article is very poor. It gives highly undue weight to his claims by describing them in such detail. Given that they are extreme fringe beliefs, and not accepted by mainstream science at all, they should be described once, and briefly. I'll work on cutting later if I get the chance. Seraphimblade 15:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- OK... I am happy to read, that I wasnt completely wrong... A very short description of his ideas should suffice (if somebody really want to know more details about it he/she can just read his website)... --Homer Landskirty 16:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Edit Dispute
Resolved
Hi all, This is not really and edit war yet but I would like to avoid it so I looking for some advice. Somebody posted a video on the article University_of_Florida_Taser_incident which was a youtube video and extremely biased in my opinion so I removed it with an edit summery. Another editor reverted my edits with the edit summary "Why is is biased?" which I think was wrong for a start. So I have reverted his edit and asked him to look at the talk page where I have started a section describing why I think it was wrong. Could somebody please look at the article/discussion to put my mind at rest? Many thanks DoyleyTalk 12:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, the video is very NPOV. It is an opinion piece rather than a simple factual recording of the whole incident. Sbowers3 13:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'll add also that for the most part, YouTube should not be linked in articles, per the external links guideline, which states: "Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media." (and this article clearly is not about rich media). Additionally, copyright policy applies, and videos that are copyrighted by other organizations may not be linked to via Misplaced Pages. Ariel♥Gold 14:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks guys, that helps a lot! DoyleyTalk 15:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'll add also that for the most part, YouTube should not be linked in articles, per the external links guideline, which states: "Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media." (and this article clearly is not about rich media). Additionally, copyright policy applies, and videos that are copyrighted by other organizations may not be linked to via Misplaced Pages. Ariel♥Gold 14:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/Spreadsheet#On_Line_true_spreadsheets
Hi,
Last week I (Rene Pardo) provided additional details regarding the world's first spreadsheet which I co-invented in 1969.
My background is on www.renepardo.com
I still have of course, the original manuals, including the presentation which I gave to 18 vice presidents of the budgeting operations of all the U.S. operating telephone companies in 1970 - which enabled AT&T, the Telcos, and Long Lines to standardize on our spreadsheet for their entire budgeting operations across the U.S. Reference the article written in the AT&T news bulletin (1971) http://www.renepardo.com/articles/spreadsheet.pdf
For some reason, the example I provided illustrating the logical functionality (i.e. allowing for IF a certain calculation in a cell, is equal, less than or greater than another calculation, then if True, then place this calculation into the cell; if False, place this other calculation in a cell) functionality that the world's first electronic spreadsheet LANPAR provided for, was deleted.
PLEASE, My question is : who decided to remove it?
a. if it is Misplaced Pages, then that is fine
b. if it is a party not wanting the industry to know that this functionality existed in 1969 (because of current patent litigation issues, or professional jealousies and dishonesty), then I need to know who requested to have it removed. It may affect patent litigation that has or will be taking place by others making claims to I.P. rights.
I would very much appreciate speaking to the appropriate person in your organization.
my email address is removed for privacy
Very best regards, Rene —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.117.82.161 (talk • contribs) 10:01, 3 November 2007
- If you click the History tab at the top of the Spreadsheet article, you can scan down to find who made the change, then contact that editor on his talk page. It turns out that the editor is fairly experienced, has edited a wide variety of articles, and was cleaning up your contribution to confirm to Misplaced Pages standards. As to the removal of your example, only he could give his reasons. Sbowers3 14:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have removed your personal information for your privacy. As for the content, "Misplaced Pages" is the sum of millions of editors, so without going through the history, it would not be possible to say who removed the information about which you inquire. Some of the core policies on Misplaced Pages are verifiability and reliable sources. Your personal website (www.renepardo.com) is not a reliable source. Unless this information was written up by news publications, etc., if it was deemed unverifiable by reliable sources, that may be why it was removed, as it would then fall into the area of original research which is not allowed on Misplaced Pages. If you can provide some reliable news sources that detail the information, feel free to post it on the article's talk page for review. However, I'd also request that you take a look at the conflict of interest guideline, which would discourage you from editing any article about yourself, your products, your company, friends, or family, as you would likely be unable to edit neutrally, and neutrality is another of the core policies of Misplaced Pages. As for the information you did add to the article, I would suggest a review of the manual of style, and citing sources pages, as that entire section is in need of some cleanup and repair. Naked URLs should not be placed into article space, as has been done with your personal site URL. Additionally, using words like "landmark" to describe a court case, should be qualified and attributed to a secondary source, as that is not a neutral term. Now, I realize all of this may come across to you as negative, and I wish to assure you that is not my intention, but the medium of text is rather imperfect at conveying inflection. I wish to assist you in understanding some of the underlying issues at work, and to understand why the information may have been removed by another editor, and why it risks being removed still. I hope this information is of some help, at least in assisting you to understand why the information may be removed, and why it may not be appropriate unless it can be verified. Feel free to ask any further questions if I have not sufficiently answered the question! Cheers, Ariel♥Gold 14:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Nobel Prize in Economics
There has been an ongoing dispute over the content and title of the Nobel Prize in Economics article, which is reflected in the history and talk page. One content issue has to do with whether or not the prize is a Nobel Prize, which the Nobel Foundation and the Secretary of the Economics Prize Committee have refuted. This hasn't changed the opinion of those who believe it is one. There is also another content issue related to completely removing edits I make to the article (and the Nobel Prize article that is now protected for a different reason), regardless of the fact that my edits are sourced from reliable sources and regardless of whether or not they are related to Nobel Prize issue. I am requesting assistance with how to deal with these editors (primarily Vision Thing) who have reverted edits and removed cited text:
- without explaining why
- with incorrect claims of original research and WP:LEAD
- with claims of compromise versions that were never discussed
- or with claims that text can't be changed if there is no consensus , even though there is no consensus to keep the current text
Asking in the talk page why the facts were removed has either resulted in a bad faith rationale, or more commonly, no rationale at all about the text unrelated to the Nobel Prize issue (see threads started on 2007-11-03, 2007-10-30 and 2007-10-26).
If this is not the appropriate forum for help related to editors removing cited text without explaining why, please let me know where to take this issue.
–panda 22:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- You're in the right place for assistance in dealing with disputes; Go here for help with resolving them. If talking things out and having both sides explain their story doesn't work, you should take it to the Administrator Incident Noticeboard for assistance from the administrators. They can take action such as protecting the page or blocking the disruptive users. J-ſtanContribs 02:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've looked through the Misplaced Pages:Dispute Resolution article, which is how I found this article, but I'm not sure what is the next best step. Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts -- does removing text with no explanation quality as a breech of WP:CIV? Misplaced Pages:Third opinion doesn't seem to apply since more than 2 editors are involved. WP:RFC/U? I would then need to ask another editor to certify, which is possible, but the RFC/U would be specifically directed at a single editor. And attempting to engage in discussion on the talk page ends with no reply from the opposing parties about why the cited text was removed. –panda 02:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- I wouldn't consider leaving no explanation a violation of civility guidelines (but it is a breach of wikiquette), and 3O and RFCU aren't appropriate because there are too many involved. I suggest starting a normal RFC for articles (not the involved users), taking it to The mediation committee, which is an official group, or the mediation cabal, which is basically an EAR group aimed for dispute resolution. Requests for a mediator can be found here. Since this is a full blown dispute, this page might not be able to handle your request in the way you need. J-ſtanContribs 03:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've looked through the Misplaced Pages:Dispute Resolution article, which is how I found this article, but I'm not sure what is the next best step. Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts -- does removing text with no explanation quality as a breech of WP:CIV? Misplaced Pages:Third opinion doesn't seem to apply since more than 2 editors are involved. WP:RFC/U? I would then need to ask another editor to certify, which is possible, but the RFC/U would be specifically directed at a single editor. And attempting to engage in discussion on the talk page ends with no reply from the opposing parties about why the cited text was removed. –panda 02:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Prostate Massage
Wiki is too cool -- However...
The entire Prostate Massage page reads like a commercial for the Aneros brand massager product, but there are many other types of prostate massagers, including a revolutionary EXTERNAL design called the Prostate Cradle. However, each time I try to add information to the page it is immediately taken down. Who is taking my posts down and why? Surfclaw 00:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Surfclaw (talk • contribs) 23:51, 3 November 2007
- You can view that in the history, but would it not be better to aim for no product placement of any kind? Start a discussion on the talk page. Remember; if it is not neutral and verified, it does not belong here anyway, so be bold. Adrian M. H. 23:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
lenticular lens
Hello,
I have been removing (repeatedly) the external links section from Lenticular lens. Several IP based users (who I do not believe are related, as they have different TLDs) have been reverting the link removal. I would appreciate some comments as to what to do in this situation. I cannot revert these changes any more, without teetering towards 3RR (although it does span more than 24 hrs). Thanks User A1 01:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- I am not too keen on the commercial aspect of those links, either. Seek out a small number of non-commercial websites that offer some useful/interesting information that meets EL guidelines and swap them in. Lead by example and they might accept the rationale behind it. One hopes. Adrian M. H. 01:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
"Neutral" Assistance for writing an article in Misplaced Pages for SearchJohn.com Limited
ok,
I was told that there was a
1) "Conflict of Interest (COI)" Is there a "neutral" instance that can write about SearchJohn.com Limited. We can send this person all necessary documents.
That would then rule out the second thing that our entry was 2) "Blatant Advertising", because obviously this person is not involved in the company SearchJohn.com Limited
I was told that the company
3) SearchJohn.com Limited was a "failure", and that I did not mention that point. Well my only comment is that we are working on the company day and night and we have built up a considerable portfolio of websites, some of which have been deleted again...(I can put the details of these websites in as well...no problem...
4) I find it strange that someone makes a judgement about weather an internet company is a failure or not, in particular if noone has had a look at the financial situation..... YouTube.com made a loss of one million US$ a month.....does that make it a failure????? A few days later that company was bought for 1.65 Billion US$.
We have 20 websites running and if we look at all the traffic we get from all these websites and who links to our websites we dont think our company is a failure....maybe not a huge success....
5) I did spent about 3 hours to write an article for Misplaced Pages and I did not make a backup of the stuff I uploaded....can I have a copy of the article I wrote please....suddenly it was gone.... I could not even stop it otherwise I would have been blocked!!!!!!
Cheers Tom Krieg, SearchJohn.com Limited —Preceding unsigned comment added by Searchjohn (talk • contribs) 02:12, 4 November 2007
- To be totally honest, we do not care if your company is a success or failure; there are three things that we care about, and those are notability, neutrality, and verifiability. Oh, and good quality encycplopædic articles, of course. So make that four things. If that reads harsh, it is not really meant to, but serves to indicate how jaded we all are with non-notable, unreferenced, non-neutral advertorial. I gave up New Page patrolling because of it. Apart from the potential for a COI to produce biased and OR-derived content, it matters little who writes an article; how they write it matters a lot. Adrian M. H. 02:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)