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::Ehm, yes: ''Official site of the Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol'' (taken from the provincial website). Good day. ] 15:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC) ::Ehm, yes: ''Official site of the Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol'' (taken from the provincial website). Good day. ] 15:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Actually Rarelibra, you are pushing quite a bit for a name that basically no other editor agrees with. :-) Look, even at it says at the bottom of the page in clear English: "Description of the autonomous legislative and administrative powers of the '''Province of Bolzano/Bozen'''.". Supparluca pointed out the official translation of the autonomy laws says '''Province of Bolzano''', again in clear English. You have gotten yourself locked onto only what is on that splash page, which has many errors. As the Anon editor mentioned above, the translations given on this website on the splash page are almost all incorrect. The French don't use the Germanic word Bozen, and they definitely use the term ''Haut Adige'' to describe this region. This is a strong example of it being necessary to go by what is English-usage (i.e., my English-based reference from EB). We have actually already split the page if you hadn't noticed, and that is what was discussed above. One page for Province of Bolzano (or Province of Bolzano-Bozen, Province of Bolzano/Bozen, whatever).. and we split of the History of AA/ST page just a few weeks ago. ] 17:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC) :::Actually Rarelibra, you are pushing quite a bit for a name that basically no other editor agrees with. :-) Look, even at it says at the bottom of the page in clear English: "Description of the autonomous legislative and administrative powers of the '''Province of Bolzano/Bozen'''.". Supparluca pointed out the official translation of the autonomy laws says '''Province of Bolzano''', again in clear English. You have gotten yourself locked onto only what is on that splash page, which has many errors. As the Anon editor mentioned above, the translations given on this website on the splash page are almost all incorrect. The French don't use the Germanic word Bozen, and they definitely use the term ''Haut Adige'' to describe this region. This is a strong example of it being necessary to go by what is English-usage (i.e., my English-based reference from EB). We have actually already split the page if you hadn't noticed, and that is what was discussed above. One page for Province of Bolzano (or Province of Bolzano-Bozen, Province of Bolzano/Bozen, whatever).. and we split of the History of AA/ST page just a few weeks ago. ] 17:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
:::: Call me "basically no other" then. The webpage you cite says South Tyrol about ten times, only once Bolzano, and at the very bottom - "Official site of the Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol -- © 1995-2005 Südtiroler Informatik AG". The autonomy statute talks about '''Provinces of Trento and Bolzano''' as the Italian name, introduced and confirmed by the Fascists, is still the only legal one. Double naming is only make-up for the public, sadly, to be shown on signs and webpages. As there was no ], Fascism is still alive in Italy. It should not be allowed to creep into English Misplaced Pages. --&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;]&nbsp; &nbsp; 21:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


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Who is trying to erase who?

Marling (Marlengo) train station renovation . Italian removed, only German kept. So much for bilingual, eh? Note the names of the town used centuries ago were, Marnea, Marniga, Merniga, Marlinga, Marninga. Both Marling and Marlengo are valid names for the town. It is unfortunate if you look at the history of many of the names in BZ, it was the German colonists pushing out the original Roman/Latin/Italian names. So I hope all you self-righteous people can get it through your heads that it isn't a one way street, and if you look at current pushing of Germans on here and German speakers in BZ, it is quite disgusting to say the very least. Emes and Fantasy have said before many times to not let the Italians erase the German names. That is denying the true facts as seen clearly in that picture above. Go pretend that one away..

"Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol"

According to the "autonomy statute" featured on the official website of the province, the English name of the province is Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol. They made this compromise for everyone's convenience, and if there ever is another proposal to move the article to another name, this is the only plausible alternative I see. The name "Alto Adige/Südtirol" appears to be used only in conjunction with the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. —AldeBaer (c) 03:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Not so clear: Official translation of the constitution. Britannica shows Bolzano-Bozen ; as well is it has already been determined that Bolzano is the most common usage in English. Welcome to the fun. :-)
Ok, in that document they exclusively use South Tyrol as sufficient short hand for the official name. I just thought I'd note the official compromise here for future reference. On the official site of the PROVINCIAL STATISTICS INSTITUTE, they use the term "Province of South Tyrol". But I agree that "Province of Bolzano - South Tyrol" sounds more correct. Now all we need is an official source for that, shouldn't be hard to find... :D —AldeBaer (c) 04:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The autonomy statute PDF appears to use the terms "Province of Trento" and "Province of Bolzano" in a administration-oriented fashion. I believe the widespread term South Tyrol, or maybe "Autonomous Province of Bozen (or Bolzano) - South Tyrol" will serve us good for the time being. At any rate, "Bozen/Bolzano" alone will only confuse readers. And if anyone is interested to learn more about the province, its governance etc, they will come to this article and everything regarding the names should be mentioned here, neutral and well-referenced, as usual. —AldeBaer (c) 04:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I've just gone through and added some references; it is unclear what is the widespread term in English. Alto Adige is often used in the US, I do not know about the UK. There are many English versions that have been found: one way could be Autonomous Province of Bolzano (or Bozen) -- Alto Adige/South Tyrol (or Südtirol) -- ad nauseum. hehe Icsunonove 05:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

According to the naming conventions, we aren't interested in official names, and the funny "Province of Bozen - South Tyrol" name isn't official by the way.--Supparluca 07:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that the best title for this article is "Province of Bolzano", in order to conform this article with all the articles about Italian Provinces, which all have a title in the "Province of XXXXX" format. --Checco 10:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It's not meant to be funny, it's simply a compromise they chose. What then, in your opinion is the widely accepted English name? Province of Bolzano? Bolzano province? Alto Adige? And what is so wrong with "South Tyrol"?
For the Google fetishists, bolzano province -wiki produces 175,000 English pages, whereas "south tyrol" -wiki produces 431,000 English pages.
Here are the Google news searches for bolzano province, for "south tyrol" -"alto adige", and for Alto Adige -sudtirol -südtirol -trentino -"south tyrol". I wouldn't read too much into that, but so far as Google can serve as a measure for general usage, I'd try that searches. —AldeBaer (c) 11:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I've added some more of the references and cleaned up the two intro paragraphs. I think I'm going to carry on this format over at the province of Trento page since it is the other side of trentino-alto adige. Icsunonove 20:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The official name from the provincial website (which IS official) - translated to English - is "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol". They have 5 official translations on that page - I think that is best used. Rarelibra 01:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Ehm, no: .--Supparluca 07:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed with Supparluca. Also the "translations" given are not even correct in most instances, where the French definitely use Haut Adige, not Tyrol du Sud, and certainly the French and English do not use Bozen, but instead Bolzano. If it were correct it would be English: Bolzano-Alto Adige; French: Bolzano-Haut Adige. Also the truly official name has no Alto Adige, South Tyrol, etc. appended. Get your head out of that biased and sad excuse for a provincial website and use English-based references, not politically motivated translations from the Südtiroler Volkspartei. This one-man insistence for this Bozen-South Tyrol is getting old. It has zero consensus and zero usage in English. This is Misplaced Pages not Rarelibrapedia.

Why bother?

It's just funny to see that this discussion comes out every now and then, just like a recurrent disease... :-) No offence intended, of course!

Seriously speaking, I do not know -and I still cannot understand- why a name is so important, and I would like that all of you explain this point -to me and to yourself. As long as we use one of the names (in this case South Tyrol. I'd rather use the Province of XXXX version, but there are redirects and so I don't care) and as long as there are proper redirects from the other options, why bother? A brief explanation on the first line, saying that "South Tyrol, also known as Province of Bolzano etc." would serve to the point, wouldn't it? Does it really make sense to spend time and energy on a trivial issue, such as what should be the main article and what should be a redirect?

OK, then someone would say, "But the right version is...", citing proofs supporting their idea, etc. as happened several times in Misplaced Pages. Fine, but let's be practical. We could underline the different opinions in a paragraph inside the article, something like "there is non consensus on the name of this province in English. South Tyrol seems to be more widely used, although the official name seems to be Province of Bolzano/Bozen, following the general rule for Italian provinces etc." Then, if it really is the case (but I don't think so), search terms could be monitored in order to see after some time which version is the most widely used by English speaking people using Misplaced Pages.

Once more, I do not intend to offend anyone. All opinions are worth to be respected; but why don't we simply use what I call common sense and solve this -and other- disputes in a time-saving, stress-saving matter, being then free to concentrate on contents?

Adriano, you forgot to sign. :-) I think the point is that it isn't the case that South Tyrol is more widely used. I usually see Alto Adige used in an English context when referring to the region, and Bolzano for the province. Using South Tyrol has the location of this page will forever cement one particular point of view. I believe something like Province of Bolzano-Bozen, Autonomous Province of Bolzano-Bozen, Alto Adige/South Tyrol, or Alto Adige/Südtirol is more fair. Note that if there had been a basic compromise before with something like Province of Bolzano-Bozen which comes straight of Encyclopedia Brittanica, reflects modern reality, and is also a shared Italian-German name (as used in the region), this debate would of ended a long time ago. Icsunonove 01:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


Oups, right, forgot to sign... :-) Thanks for the message, Icsunove!

My point is not on what is -or is not- fair. My proposal is just to use whichever reasonable (eg. Burkina Faso wouldn't suit this article!! :-) ) name as main entry, acknowledging other versions and use redirects. IMO nothing will cement, as things change and one name could disappear either officially or through usage. We are not changing the world - we are just recording it...

It's just a practical way to solve the issue, without addressing the matter of the right name - a process which lasts forever (see endless discussions here and in other articles).

Once again, no offence intended

BTW, Icsunove, you didn't answer to the question: why is a name so important? (eager to read your -and everybody's- opinion) Regards. --Adriano 01:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll fancy a guess to why the name South Tyrol is so important to some. It is a matter of stating the land is, and is only, Südtirol/South Tyrol/Austrian Tirol. I remember people saying, "why do you all want to get rid of the name Südtirol?". But the case really is: why are these very same people the ones who are apparently trying to remove the name Alto Adige from Misplaced Pages? Remember when it was only Trentino-South Tyrol and South Tyrol and basically all references to Alto Adige replaced with links to South Tyrol? You can see many pages where the same users have listed South Tyrol almost as its own Republic, along with Austria, Luxembourg, etc. There is a political agenda there. My opinion is this sort of push is just really sad. It is just ironic that you have users who say that Italians are trying to erase the Germans from BZ, but the truth is that it is the other way around and has been for a long time. Bottom line, the game has gotten old. Using the Autonomous Province of Bolzano, or my preference of Autonomous Province of Bolzano-Bozen reflects reality. It reflects what you find in the Encyclopedia Brittanica. It follows along the lines of how every Province of xxxx in Italy is named (after the major town). It also gets away from the debate of what is used more in English: Alto Adige or South Tyrol (where the former actually is..hah! :). You said it best, we are merely recording, and recording based on reality and proper English-based references. I can't be the only one that has smelled something pretty fishy with the whole South Tyrol/Südtirol/Zuid-Tirol/Tyrol du Sud everywhere on Misplaced Pages, and the deletion of any name that is equivalent to Alto Adige/High Adige.. and even the Province of BZ. It is surreal really... and I really pity people who must do such a thing to validate themselves, or whatever. So, there ya go. :-) Icsunonove 01:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I do think that "Province of Bolzano" is simly more precise, goes well both with those supporting "South Tyrol" and those supporting "Alto Adige", and is coherent with the titles of all the other 109 Provinces of Italy. --Checco 07:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
What about Aosta Valley / it:Valle d'Aosta? —AldeBaer (c) 12:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Aosta Valley isn't one of the 109 provinces of Italy--Supparluca 12:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Aosta Valley is both a Province and a Region, but actually a Region composed of only one Province. Anyway Aosta Valley has a regional government but not a provincial one, so it is more a Region than a Province. --Checco 12:59, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Are you sure? On my encyclopedia it is explicitly written that Aosta Valley isn't a province, and if you count it as a province, you obtain 110 provinces instead of 109.--Supparluca 13:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Indeed they're 110, but as the Province of Aosta has no provincial administration and it is in fact the same thing of the Aosta Valley Region, we should consider it primarily as a Region. --Checco 13:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I was asking because it appears in Provinces_of_Italy. —AldeBaer (c) 14:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Because as Province of Aosta = Aosta Valley Region, we have one article about it. Aosta Valley is both a region and a province. --Checco 09:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Icsunove says there is a political agenda behind this name-war... Would a change in the name of an article on a free encyclopaedia be so decisive for people who
- feel they live under the control of a foreign country, or
- want to become independent from the country they truly belong to (have your choice! :-) )?
I do not think so... so why is a name so important? And why bother?
As of the Province of Aosta, it seems from this document from the Italian Parliament that it ceased to exist in 1945 (). So any reference to the province of Aosta or of Valle d'Aosta seems to be wrong. --Adriano 15:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Explanation requested by 32X

All the articles about the provinces of Italy are named "Province of ", so the title of this article should be "Province of Bolzano", otherwise it's POV, also considering that "South Tyrol" isn't the name usually used by reliable sources.--Supparluca 09:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

In order of rank, common English usage is 1) Alto Adige, 2) South Tyrol, and 3) Province of Bolzano and/or Province of Bolzano-Bozen. However, it is difficult to really measure 3 because of the "Province of" part. People may be using only the word Bolzano to refer to the province or the city of Bolzano. People have claimed that South Tyrol is "English" but that Alto Adige is not English, but Italian. This is simply not the case, just as Los Angeles and San Francisco are technically Spanish, but they are also certainly the English name for these cities (we do not use The Angels or Saint Francis). Anyway, viable options for this page would be Alto Adige, Alto Adige/Südtirol, Alto Adige/South Tyrol, Province of Bolzano, Province of Bolzano-Bozen. Only listing South Tyrol, when it is only one of the valid English names, and not even the most common, is just wrong. My recommendation is still to use Province of Bolzano-Bozen, as cited through Encyclopedia Brittanica on the main page, so that we then match all the other 109 provinces of Italy. Icsunonove 19:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Why not either factor out the section on the government of the Province to be Province of Bolzano, or put the categories on the redirect? Either will work fine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, it is not a bad idea, and this has been brought up before (Ian just mentioned it too :). We could finally do this split and have Trentino and Alto Adige/Südtirol focus more on history (as they are historical terms really). Then have the Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano-Bozen pages. This is what they do on Italian Misplaced Pages to some extend, and I've seen it on other Wikipedias as well. The thing though, if we do this split, the historical page for AA/ST can not just be South Tyrol anymore. It really has to be either the most common English term, Alto Adige, both English names Alto Adige/South Tyrol, or what we've done for T-AA/ST: Alto Adige/Südtirol. I prefer the last one because then we have pages for Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Trentino, Alto Adige/Südtirol, Province of Trento (TN), and Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ). Everything fits very nicely then and there is no term missing as well. :-) Icsunonove 20:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't see that Alto Adige is most common, especially in historical terms; and I object, as always, to double names. But please do make the article about the government of the Province. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I also oppose the use of double names.--Supparluca 12:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, it is a matter of debate, definitely. In the US I see Alto Adige used much more often. In fact, the only time I've ever seen the words South Tyrol used were on a bag of Loacker Quadratini. :-) Also, if I do an English-only Google search, taking out Misplaced Pages, I usually get a factor of 2-4x more Alto Adige hits than South Tyrol. The bottom line is both of these historical names are of relatively recent use as far as describing a territory; we should be able to at least be able to agree that they are both frequency used in English. Anyway, I know you don't like the double names, but we did it for T-AA/ST, lets just do it once more..hah. Icsunonove 21:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I’d support the factoring-out approach. Administratively Italy is divided up very precisely into regions, provinces and communes and we need an article on each. But these aren’t always the best way to treat matters of history, geography or cultural affinity. The quattro province straddle also four regions. The territory of the contemporary Province of Alessandria is historically less of a coherent unit than a site of contest between the Empire and the Lombard League. The Province of Milan article is not the Duchy of Milan article. What we mean by Liguria or Calabria depends on which period of history we are talking about. Indeed the same applies to Italy itself—now, where was Garibaldi born?! —Ian Spackman 21:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Definitely agree. So if we make historical Trentino and AA/ST pages. What is the preferred name? Lets see: Alto Adige/Südtirol or Alto Adige/South Tyrol? :) Icsunonove 21:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
On putting the category on the redirect. This is very ugly, actually. Certainly you could get a link called Province of Bolzano from the category Category:Provinces of Italy by putting it on the redirect page. But the category wouldn’t show up on the main page (South Tyrol, for the sake of argument). Bad. So you would have to categorise South Tyrol also as a province of Italy. And both would turn up in the category. Very confusing to our readers. (There is an example of this at the river Soča / Isonzo and its double existence in Category:Rivers of Italy.) —Ian Spackman 12:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I too endorse outfactoring of the governmental aspects. Also, I don't believe Alto Adige / ST counts as a double name, because it is officially being used (New York/Big Apple would be an example of a double name, or Germany/Deutschland, as those would be double names entirely of our own making). Why would we override the term when it was installed from the official side as a viable compromise? For that matter, I'd rather have Alto Adige/Südtirol than AA/South Tyrol, as South Tyrol seems to be less used in the English speaking world and simply because of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. It seems like a good compromise to refer to the (geographical) region. Btw: If I understand this correctly, the idea is to make a seperate article on the political entity "Province of Bolzano-Bozen", right? —AldeBaer (c) 05:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that "Province of Trento" - "Trentino" and "Province of Bolzano" - "Alto Adige" (formerly "South Tyrol") are exaclty the same things, so what could you write in one article that you don't write in the other? Also, neither the Italian nor the German wikipedias have separate articles for this two provinces, what wikipedias were you referring to?--Supparluca 09:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

It's really not that important how other projects present the subject. Wrt to splitting the article (which I endorse), wouldn't you agree that the Italian province and the historical geographical region can arguably be treated as two different subjects? We could of course keep it the way it is, but our primary goal is to get over with this time-consuming debate and build consensus. Your idea of keeping the article as one and renaming it to "Province of Bolzano" has (i) apparently no consensus, and (ii) would, in my opinion, not eliminate what you call POV but instead simply turn it 180 degrees. —AldeBaer (c) 12:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that the two articles would have the same content with different names, but it's just my opinion. What is not an opinion is that the name "Province of Bolzano" isn't POV, because it reflects the reality and is English.--Supparluca 12:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
One article is for the political entity, the other for the geographical region. "Province of Bolzano" is not the commonly used English name, both Alto Adige and South Tyrol are far more common. —AldeBaer (c) 12:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC) -- And no, it does not reflect reality, it merely is the English name of a political entity, and it would be the perfect title for an article on that political entity, but here it appears to not have consensus for a variety of reasons.
I mean, "Province of Bolzano" reflects the reality because it is an Italian province; "South Tyrol" doesn't because it is not part of the Austrian state of Tyrol.--Supparluca 08:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
South Tyrol is not a historical region. South Tyrol as we know it today is a result of the partition of the Austrian state of Tyrol (Kronland Tirol) in 1919. There was no "South Tyrol" before that event, the German word "Südtirol" was colloquially referring to the southernmost part of Tyrol, south of Bozen. Therefore, South Tyrol, Alto Adige and the Province of Bolzano are synonyms, denoting exactly the same territory and political entity. To have two articles would be content forking that is not permitted in Misplaced Pages.  Andreas  21:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi Andreas. A couple questions for you. You mentioned "the German word "Südtirol" was colloquially referring to the southernmost part of Tyrol". Wasn't the southernmost part of Tyrol: Trentino (i.e. Welschtirol)? I don't know for sure, but it makes more sense to me that the colloquial term of Südtirol would of come out after the partition of the County of Tyrol in the early 1900s. The use of Alto Adige to refer to a territory, in an official sense, dates back to the early 1800s (during a brief control under France), right? Of course it is difficult to ascertain how far back its use goes colloquially. Anyway, I don't think we are saying Alto Adige and South Tyrol are historical regions, but saying they are historical terms for this territory (like Trentino is a historical name for the Province of Trento). In that sense, having a Trentino page and a Alto Adige/Südtirol that spend some time on history, while a Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano-Bozen page that concentrate on the modern provinces, tourism, economics, etc.. makes some sense. If you are really convinced this is still content forking (because of all these terms certainly still being used today) then we'd have to just have Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano-Bozen, because these are the actual names of these two modern-day provinces. ps. where we have some real content forking seems to be at History of South Tyrol. :) Icsunonove 23:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Good point wrt History of South Tyrol! As far as I'm concerned, it's a killer argument for having two articles as there's much useful material in that page. Why not simply rename that article to AA/ST and merge info not related to governance (particularly the material on historical and geographical aspects) into that page; then we could peacefully set up and move the ST article as an article on the political entity Province of Bozen-Bolzano (or "Province of Bolzano", in case people think that's the better name). What's funny is that right now different people are opposing the (already existing) split over diametrically opposed reasons... —AldeBaer (c) 23:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree 100%. Not to mention this page is currently so bogged down with "history", it gives the readers almost no impression of the wonderful area TN and BZ really are! Icsunonove 00:00, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
To bring up the only categorical alternative I see, I'd like to know if those who expressed their opposition wrt a split would, following the same logic, argue merging History of South Tyrol into this article? —AldeBaer (c) 00:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes. By the way, maybe it's too strong to say that I oppose the proposed splitting; I just don't like the idea and I think that it would be difficult to create two articles that will not be proposed for merging.--Supparluca 08:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I used the word "oppose" for greater clarity only. You realise of course that if that's your opinion, you would logically have to nominate History of South Tyrol to be merged into this article? I'm asking because I believe that it's the basic question that needs consensus: Whether we keep the two existing articles and maybe re-organise them, or whether we want to merge. As I said above, I'd prefer Icsunove's proposal, but I'd like to know whether it has conensus. Since two articles already exist, it's the call of the people "opposed" to a two-article-solution to propose a merge. —AldeBaer (c) 09:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

History content fork

The "History" article is indeed a content fork. It would not be a content fork if the main article (under whatever name) contained only a backbone of history and a reference {{main|History of ...}}. This is done for other geographical atricles, too. So either merge the history article, or radically reduce the Histroy section of the main article.  Andreas  13:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

That's the question, yes. Which solution would you prefer? Would you propose the merge or could you agree to Icsunove's two-article-solution? —AldeBaer (c) 14:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
The History section is long enough that it merits an own article. But then, the History section of the main article should be merged into the History article. And the History article should have a title that conforms with that of the main article.  Andreas  17:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I merged the History section into the History article. Needs some proofreading.  Andreas  18:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Good deal, I'm on it. —AldeBaer (c) 08:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
We can do something similar on the Province of Trento page (i.e., a History of Trentino). This really helped clean up the BZ page a lot! Icsunonove 23:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Obvious need for split

There is an obvious need for splitting the articles into two - one for the Province, one for the historical region. Who is going to do it? I don't mind taking the lead in this muck, if it will please most. They did it for a district in Turkey that the people kept warring over, and it works. I know they can do it with this one as well. The only thing is this - there are some still pushing POV. POV is one thing, official naming is another. The provincial website translates the name into English as "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol". That is how it should be. The links to the other wikis will have the various names in other languages (like "Bolzano" in Italian). That is how it should be. This is supposed to be encyclopedic, for God's sake - for people to LEARN, not to go around and continually push to change names back and forth. If you want to spend your time that way, than do so - but realize it's a waste of talent. I, for one, will continue to trudge and map where no maps have gone before. Happy editing. Rarelibra 13:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Ehm, no: .--Supparluca 14:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Ehm, yes: Official site of the Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol (taken from the provincial website). Good day. Rarelibra 15:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually Rarelibra, you are pushing quite a bit for a name that basically no other editor agrees with. :-) Look, even at http://www.provincia.bz.it/english/default.htm it says at the bottom of the page in clear English: "Description of the autonomous legislative and administrative powers of the Province of Bolzano/Bozen.". Supparluca pointed out the official translation of the autonomy laws says Province of Bolzano, again in clear English. You have gotten yourself locked onto only what is on that splash page, which has many errors. As the Anon editor mentioned above, the translations given on this website on the splash page are almost all incorrect. The French don't use the Germanic word Bozen, and they definitely use the term Haut Adige to describe this region. This is a strong example of it being necessary to go by what is English-usage (i.e., my English-based reference from EB). We have actually already split the page if you hadn't noticed, and that is what was discussed above. One page for Province of Bolzano (or Province of Bolzano-Bozen, Province of Bolzano/Bozen, whatever).. and we split of the History of AA/ST page just a few weeks ago. Icsunonove 17:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Call me "basically no other" then. The webpage you cite says South Tyrol about ten times, only once Bolzano, and at the very bottom - "Official site of the Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol -- © 1995-2005 Südtiroler Informatik AG". The autonomy statute talks about Provinces of Trento and Bolzano as the Italian name, introduced and confirmed by the Fascists, is still the only legal one. Double naming is only make-up for the public, sadly, to be shown on signs and webpages. As there was no Entnazifizierung, Fascism is still alive in Italy. It should not be allowed to creep into English Misplaced Pages. -- Matthead      O       21:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Page Split

As discussed previously, the idea we came up with was to split the page into a provincial article and historical article. AndreasJS and AldeBaer helped move the historical section over to History of AA/ST. What is left in the current article focuses on the modern province of BZ. So the idea is to pick the name to locate the page at now. The choices that have been floated most often are (and I'll include my pal Rarelibra's as well) :) Icsunonove 17:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano

(+2 + -2 = 0 pts)
Probably most common usage in English and used in the official translation of the autonomy statute from the provincial website

Province of Bolzano-Bozen

(+1 + -2 = -1 pts)
Used in English-based references like Encyclopedia Brittanica

  • support because it is referenced in a popular English-based work such as EB and is multilingual, which keeps that nationalism at bay. :-) Icsunonove 17:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
  • oppose it needs to include the "South Tyrol" name. Rarelibra 18:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
  • oppose double names, which fail to keep nationalism at bay; see the WP:LAME entry on this conflict.. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
    It is from Encyclopedia Brittanica and the Provincial website.. can you LAME them please. :P Icsunonove 21:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
    The Britannica doesn't have editors who want to move this to Bozen-Bolzano and back; fortunate lucky people that they are.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
    Yeah, and that is why we should of been using references like Britannica from the beginning and not pander to the nationalism in the first place. That is why I support Bolzano-Bozen the most, because you open up EB and there it is.. full stop, end of story. All these crazy methods like majority mother-language and rivers, etc. has actually been a phenomenal waste of time -- all with the purpose of having English Misplaced Pages mirror German Misplaced Pages. That game has got to end. Icsunonove 21:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano/Bozen

(+1 + -2 = -1 pts)
Basically similar to the previous name, but is used on the main English page of the provincial website

Province of Bozen-South Tyrol

(+1 + -3 = -2 pts)
Used on the splash page of the provincial website, though shows almost no English usage using Google, etc. Looking at other discussions, it is doubtful that appending the regional name is actually official

Province of Bolzano/Bozen-Alto Adige/South Tyrol

(+0 + -3 = -3 pts)
Just for grins...

Discussion

Rarelibra, check this out. Google English search of "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol -wiki" . All of 111 hits! Come on now... :)) Also, you find your Province of Bozen-South Tyrol here , but on the same page it shows Province of Bolzano/Bozen and in the Autonomy Statute shows Province of Bolzano . You are picking from a page that has already at least THREE versions. :P I don't see how you can oppose something which is listed in Encyclopedia Brittanica. We are above all supposed to use English-based citations. Icsunonove 18:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

  • just because we love Google searches, especially Septentrionalis, just a quick run down from Google with an English Pages search. I know this isn't a perfect methodology, but I think in this case it really shows quite an order of magnitude difference in usage. Icsunonove 20:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
"Province of Bolzano": 47,000 pages
"Province of Bolzano-Bozen": 20,600 pages
"Province of Bozen": 2,330 pages
"Province of Alto Adige": 915 pages
"Province of South Tyrol": 532 pages
"Province of Bolzano-Alto Adige": 148 pages
"Province of Bozen-South Tyrol": 110 pages
"Bolzano Province": 13,700 pages
"South Tyrol Province": 672 pages
"Alto Adige Province": 421 pages
"Bozen Province": 301 pages
"Bolzano-Bozen Province": 104 pages
"Bolzano-Alto Adige Province": 1 page
"Bozen-South Tyrol Province: 0 pages
I trust this is irony. I strongly object to raw google, as should be well known. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I'm joking with you to some extent. But on the other hand, when you have an order of magnitude of 100, 1000, you are probably pretty safe with "raw google". Icsunonove 21:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait

We were going to have Province of Bolzano and History of South Tyrol, but obviously without a South Tyrol article! It doesn't make any sense to have two names for the same article, South Tyrol should be redirected to Province of Bolzano or History of South Tyrol, or even Tyrol or Austria.--Supparluca 21:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

No, this is the region; Province of Bolzano is the provincial government, duly catted into Category:Provinces of Italy; and History of South Tyrol is the history. Three subjects, three articles. We can merge some of the history back, if you like; it's unbalanced towards the twentieth century as it stands. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Three articles now? *shock* Then we also need three for Trentino, and should we start multiplying the other provinces? :P At this rate we will have Province of Bolzano-Bozen, Alto Adige/South Tyrol (because both are valid English terms), and History of Alto Adige/South Tyrol. Then Province of Trento, Trentino, and History of Trentino?? The idea we had above was a Province of TN and Province of BZ page and then a History of TN and History of AA/ST page going over the history of the regions. The content in this page now is perfectly valid for the Province of Bolzano..... Icsunonove 21:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
You have an article, under the name you wanted, in the cat you want. And you revert it. Ingratitude, thy name is... :-<. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
But it's a bit like having an article named Merano and another named Meran, it isn't a real solution. This area was South Tyrol in the past, now it's an Italian province, we could have South Tyrol (historical) instead of History of South Tyrol, or something like that.--Supparluca 22:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
"it's unbalanced towards the twentieth century": there was no South Tyrol or Province of Bolzano before 1919. What was before is found at Tyrol. The history of South Tyrol is identical to that of the Province of Bolzano or that of Alto Adige or of Tiroler Etschland. (For comparison: the History of the German Democratic Republic starts in 1945 and ends in 1990.)  Andreas  21:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Hear, hear. I think we had a nice idea with the History of XX pages. The current Province of TN and BZ pages look actually organized now with respect to the modern day provinces. The history pages can go to the pre-20th century and the province pages can discuss the government, economy, tourism, etc., etc. Icsunonove 22:02, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Then, where is the History of East Germany? Andreas  22:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

this was a Misplaced Pages:content fork and against WP guidelines. Don't try to solve political controversies in this manner, the naming dispute is real. See also: Talk:Republic of Macedonia#FYROM.  Andreas  22:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

My point is that Province of BZ, South Tyrol, Alto Adige are just different names for the same thing, a political entity that did not exist before 1919. The controversy about the name (and the reason why the name of this entity has changed during its history) is political and originates in an ethnic conflict. Each of these names has an ethnic connotation and is therefore rejected by a part of the inhabitants. We at Misplaced Pages cannot change this. As so many other of these conflicts, the dispute can go on forever. (Another example: the existence or non-existence of a Moldovan language, the discussion fills 12 archives). The reason why I supported a separate history article has nothing to do with the name, and it does not solve the name controversy (History of what?).  Andreas  22:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

No they're not the same thing. The South Tyrol did not come into existence in 1919; the 1911 Britannica had an article on it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. What did the article say?  Andreas  22:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC) WHy can't I find it here? Maybe you have a better source.  Andreas  22:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
LOL! Icsunonove 23:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
That's what I get for typing from memory; but these 600 hits from before 1900 may console you. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't have time to look at these right now, but just off hand I feel a bit strange that there is a book on the first page from 1809 with a preview that says "South Tyrol and the Provinces of Trent and Belluno were occupied by the Germans, who were already in Rome, whither they had been summoned by Italy as her". I'm so confused. Anyway, when the area was part of the empire, and part of the the County of Tyrol, it really would make more sense that South Tyrol was just referring to the southern portion of Tyrol. (i.e. the area surrounding Trento and Bolzano/Bozen). Afterall, the County of Tyrol spread all the way down to the northern portion of Lake Garda. Was that Southerer-Tyrol? Icsunonove 23:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
  • "Southern Tyrol": 626 hits
  • "West Tyrol": 50 hits
  • "East Germany": 632 hits
  • "computer": 21,292 hits
    • Yes, there are some false positives, although a complaint about false positives from someone who uses raw google is a little -er- odd. But if you actually read the results, ignoring magazines, you will find many books, such as A Text-book of Geology by Archibald Geikie (1893, which use South Tyrol. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It appears that Google Books lists magazines according to the publication date of the first issue. Andreas  01:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

And taking a few obvious precautions to cut out magazines (and some books) leaves us with these 300 hits; including, you will notice, the 1890 Britannica (article on Alps). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but if you read that article, it isn't really talking of South Tyrol in the same context that it has been used post WWII. Actually that EB article seems sort of like casual babbling. :-) Oh, kind of like our talk page. ^_^ Interesting stuff though, thanks. Icsunonove 07:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Again, if you use Southern Tyrol, you get as many hits. Before 1919, "South Tyrol" meant the same as "Southern Tyrol", i.e. the southern Part of Tyrol, it was not a term per se. See also Northern Ireland (did not exist before 1921, still 889 hits). South England (all times) gives over 700 hits. So "South Tyrol" (or "Northern Ireland" or "East Germany") as terms did not exist before partition. Therefore, the idea to have an article about the "historical region of South Tyrol" does not make sense. What is sensible, however, is an article about the history of the political entity that is called "South Tyrol" or "Province of BZ" or whatever.  Andreas  13:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Two-article solution?

I’ve voted before on South Tyrol name changes but have no dog in this fight; I’m only here because articles I edit frequently get links to South Tyrol anonymously changed to various combinations of Province of Bolzano-Bozen-South Tyrol-Alto Adige.

I can say that an article split here is, to a degree, a content fork. However, both “Province of Bolzano-Bozen” (or whatever) and “South Tyrol” are legitimately the proper English titles for particular aspects of the topic. If done well, the content of each article can justify the existence of two or more articles. “Province of Bolzano-Bozen” can deal with the administrative elements and other mechanics of the current Italian province with header links to historical and ethnic content at “History of South Tyrol.”

Having a third aticle at “South Tyrol” might be excessive and, if created, should be limited in scope to elements not dealt with in “Province of Bolzano-Bozen.” Based on the current content of the two articles, a solution might be to move “History of South Tyrol” to “South Tyrol” since the ”Today” section is not strictly history anyway. The “South Tyrol” article could cover both the history and the current ethnic and independentist issues. Many articles without “history” in the title are largely historical in scope (e.g, Hertza region)

(Another possibility is maintaining articles for “Province of Bolzano-Bozen” and “History of South Tyrol” but creating a South Tyrol section at “Tyrol” and having South Tyrol redirect there.)

I generally agree with what you said, but this proposal in particular is practically the perfect solution! (without that double name as always)--Supparluca 07:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There is precedence for these types of splits. For example, Hertza region and Hertsaivskyi Raion have two separate articles. A header at the top of the latter reads "This article is about the administrative district in Ukraine. For the territorial controversy, see Hertza region." Contemporary (but not historical) Republic of China and Taiwan are largely coincidental and yet retain two articles (and two history articles).

 AjaxSmack  02:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey Ajax, thanks for contributing. I basically agree with your opinions. The only thing I do want to point however though is when you are mentioning South Tyrol, Alto Adige should also be kept in mind as a commonly used term in English. Speaking of Taiwan, there is a subset of this political argument that is very similar to what goes on in Taiwan -- but that is another topic. :-) Icsunonove 06:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I didn't mean to ignore Alto Adige but "South Tyrol" connotes ethnic and independentist issues in a way that Alto Adige does not. Alto Adige in English (to me, anyway) is more of an administrative term (e.g. Trentino-Alto Adige). —  AjaxSmack  08:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Alto Adige also connotes ethnic ("annexationist") issues. Don't shy away from the facts, none of the names are neutral, else we wouldn't have this controversy here. The administrative term is Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol' (s:Constitution of Italy#Art. 116, s:it:Italia, Repubblica - Costituzione#Art. 116.  Andreas  13:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
How could "annexationism" exist in this case? This province is part of Italy in the real world, it isn't the hope of some people. So "Alto Adige" is just a normal name, it can't mean anything else.--Supparluca 14:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
You should ask some German-speaking South Tyrolers about this. Justified or not (a matter of opinion), resentment against the name "Alto Adige" exists, as does resentment against the annexation. Andreas  14:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, this s clear.--Supparluca 17:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, including the people who are part of the unionfs. However, to put things into context we should remember that this party is a "vocal minority" belonging to a far-right ideology that also calls for expelling all "foreigners" (I assume people from East Europe, Africa, and Asia), including all "Italians" (who ever these mythical Italians may be :). They also have some bizarre campaign to force speakers of the Italian language to use "Sudtirolo" and forever forget the term Alto Adige exists; perhaps forgetting the Adige in the Alps exists? I don't know. :-) Anyway, Alto Adige does have political connections to the resurgence of Italy; but overall I would say it is a much more tame term than South Tyrol. There will always be an Alto Adige, Alto Po, Alto Isarco. The history of this patch of land is one of Romanization, Germanization, etc., etc. I can't understand the bitching from groups like the unionfs who lack no rights, live in prosperity, and in a beautiful land. To them, who has the right to stay in this area? Those whose family lives there for 500 years? 1000 years? 2000 years? I think they are just bored... Icsunonove 17:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

"... frequently get links to South Tyrol anonymously changed ... ": So what. References to Republic of Macedonia and Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia are swapped in more or less regular intervals by anonymous users. By the nature of Misplaced Pages, we have to live with this.  Andreas  14:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but that leaves us the choice of consciously trying for neutrality, where everybody (including us outnumbered anglophones) gets something; or descending into the Macedonian snakepit. I've gone there; I know which I prefer. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

article name

It looks like preference so far is for Province of Bolzano and then Province of Bolzano-Bozen. Can we just go ahead and narrow down to deciding between these? This page has already been cleaned up to reflect the modern province. We can then debate what to call the historical page, currently History of South Tyrol. We can talk all about where exactly is the Southern Tyrol and the Highest Adige. :-) Icsunonove 17:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

None of them have more support than opposition; this suggests that South Tyrol is also a contender. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there was indeed a large opposition for using anything other than South Tyrol, this coming from a group of people who were likely ignorant or misinformed about the history of this region (and maybe slightly biased with a particular cultural viewpoint?). That is neither here nor there now and is water under the bridge. We are going to address the names (and apparent sensitivities) regarding Alto Adige and South Tyrol (and Trentino for that matter) with the History page(s). Right now we need to finally locate this article, about this modern and very real province of Italy, at some Province of BZ so that the provinces of Italy are complete. There simply has never been a Province of South Tyrol or Province of Alto Adige (there was the administrative region of Haut Adige under France, but that is another story...). Icsunonove 20:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for softening your edit. I agree there should be an article on the Province, as you know; and you know how much I think should be in it. I prefer Province of Bolzano, on the whole. I am not a German nationalist; but I do speak English - and the English name of the region should have an article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Did I soften it? :P I didn't mean to be harsh if that is how my post came out; it is just my observation in general given past votes, and definitely not aimed at you. I'm a native English speaker as well, and I know that Alto Adige, province of Bolzano, and South Tyrol are all common terms in English; though I do most rarely see South Tyrol used. Regardless, we can't have a page for all three. I think the most reasonable and neutral way is to have a page for the modern province of BZ. We can't push to have things called only Alto Adige or South Tyrol, it is just unreasonable. The nationalistic side I've perceived is the push of this concept that the area has always been German, named South Tyrol, the majority of Italic names were made up in the early 1900s, etc., etc. It has gotten really boring, just for the sake of many people appearing unable to change their ideas and opinions over time. I know very well of similar politics in Taiwan for example, but it has been a big shock to see this primitive thinking in a region I care for so much. This area BZ is simply an interface for Roman/Germanic culture. That is really something that should be cherished, not this ridiculous push to get one or the other out (i.e., those folks in the unionfs should be utterly ashamed). Anyway, again I wonder what major arguments there are against using something like Province of Bolzano-Bozen which is a correct name for the modern province, is cited in black-and-white in Encyclopedia Britannica (along with the main English page of the provincial website), is a very neutral name for a province, and is multilingual. Icsunonove 01:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Since many of the ultra-nationalists like Gryfindor and Emes apparently have left the English wikipedia, we should be able to get rid of all their "contributions".--Supparluca 04:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Province Title: 2nd round

Lets try and narrow down to what are probably the three main choices. Instead of using "Oppose", editors please just state which one page location they "Support" for the province page and briefly why. thank you. Icsunonove 00:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano

Province of Bolzano-Bozen

  • Support. This name is cited in Encyclopedia Britannica as such (along with the main English page of the provincial website , which states "Description of the autonomous legislative and administrative powers of the Province of Bolzano/Bozen"), is a neutral name for the province (no south, north, high, low), is multilingual (Italian-German), and is in fact the name of this province of Italy (!!). Icsunonove 00:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. First choice. —AldeBaer 06:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bozen-South Tyrol

  • Support. The official website http://www.provinz.bz.it/ is available in 5 languages, in English it says Welcome to South Tyrol -- Official site of the Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol. This English name reflects the name used by over two thirds of the local population. There's nothing left to discuss except the inclusion of Autonomous. -- Matthead      O       20:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Google, English, -wiki

"Province of Bolzano": 47,700 pages
"Province of Bolzano-Bozen": 21,000 pages
"Province of Bozen-South Tyrol": 115 pages
Categories:
Talk:South Tyrol/Naming: Difference between revisions Add topic