| Revision as of 22:30, 5 December 2020 view sourceFavonian (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators287,945 edits Revert to revision 992542140 dated 2020-12-05 20:34:48 by Jasper Deng using popupsTag: Manual revert← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 01:44, 19 January 2025 view source ArionStar (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,150 edits →Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/delist/Jimmy Wales: new sectionTag: New topic | ||
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| {{Notice|1={{Center|1='''Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an ].'''<br /> | {{Notice|1={{Center|1='''Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an ].'''<br /> | ||
| '''He holds the founder's seat on the ]'s .<br />The current ] occupying "community-selected" seats are ], ] and ].<br />The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is ].'''}}}} | '''He holds the founder's seat on the ]'s .<br />The current ] occupying "community-selected" seats are ], ], ] and ].<br />The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is ].'''}}}} | ||
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| | subject = talkpage | |||
| | author = Matthew Gault | |||
| | title = Misplaced Pages Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Misplaced Pages Edit | |||
| | org = ] | |||
| | url = https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjbkvm/wikipedia-editors-very-mad-about-jimmy-waless-nft-of-a-wikipedia-edit | |||
| | date = 8 December 2021 | |||
| | quote = The trouble began when Wales posted an announcement about the auction on his user talk page—a kind of message board where users communicate directly with each other. | |||
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| ==]== | |||
| == Seeking topic ban from American politics, post-1932, the easy way == | |||
| ] | |||
| ] | |||
| Almost everything I try to do in this area goes sour quickly, leads to more confusion and controversy. I waste people's time, they waste mine. It's not intentional, but it is disruptive and it does happen. I've tried to quit, but it's hard, I lack self-control and can't resist the temptations of correctable half-truths. I tried asking an admin for intervention (in a somewhat creepy way, no less), but then read a rule saying regular admins don't have that authority, only you can stop me from wasting more people's time without wasting even more people's time through a thorough public hearing. I waive that right, and any others that may hinder your verdict. I would ask for a minimum sentence of four months, but will abide by whatever you think fits the above freely-confessed crimes. Thank you for considering this plea, and once again for creating Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 08:32, 30 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team. | |||
| Dear IndedibleHulk, | |||
| I would consider it a great kindness and it would reflect very well on you if you choose not to edit articles in the area of American policies, post-1932. Out of your respect for the process - and for yourself and your own happiness - I hope that you will use this voluntary ban wisely. My suggestions would be to pick some random area of knowledge that you've always had a bit of curiosity about, but have no strong views on, and read a few books about it. Or - and I haven't checked your edit history so I have no idea what the problem has been - perhaps you could find a prominent and well-written book that takes an opposite view of your own, and read it with a sympathetic mind, to try to understand things as those who disagree with you understand them. (Have no fear, you won't brainwash yourself or anything but you are likely to come out the other end with a more nuanced and thoughtful position!)--] (]) 14:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :Read ''a book?'' By one of ''those'' people?!? Harsh...but fair. I'll give it my best shot! But I'm telling you, part of me is addicted to chaos, a straitjacket and muzzle might still be in order, should my reading comprehension fail. ] (]) 22:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| I think you should both come to my ] class. Bring your own hobnails. -] ] 14:56, 30 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :That doesn't seem like a winter activity, meybe later, woof anyway! ] (]) 22:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| Maybe you were cyber bullied and didn't have the armor to cope with it. Sounds like you just made honest mistakes. That's a lot better than editors who deliberately mislead. ] (]) 15:18, 30 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :Not even close. The speculation and the assumption, anyway. That last fact's dead on. ] (]) 22:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| If I may jump in here, Something incredibly right up your alley Mr. Hulk. ]] ] 16:45, 5 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == Fourteen Years == | |||
| On 03 February 2006, it was reported to the WMF that our system discriminates against the visually impaired. See and . | |||
| This appears to be a direct violation of the and leaves Misplaced Pages open to the possibility of a discrimination lawsuit. | |||
| In particular, was a case where a major retailer, Target Corp., was successfully sued because their web designers failed to design its website to enable persons with low or no vision to use it. | |||
| So why, after 14 years of inaction, do we not have a set of software requirements (including a testable definition of "done") and a schedule for solving this? | |||
| '''And no, I will not accept any proposed "solution" that lacks:''' | |||
| * '''The name of an WMF employee who has been given the assignment of fixing this,''' | |||
| * '''A budget that says how much the WMF expects to spend on solving this,''' | |||
| * '''A deadline that says how long the WMF expects it to take to solve this, and''' | |||
| * '''A way for an independent third party to look at the results and verify whether the requirements were met.''' | |||
| I am left with these known facts: | |||
| * For 14 years the WMF has failed to assign a single employee or contractor the task of fixing this problem. | |||
| * For 14 years the WMF has failed to budget a single dollar towards fixing this. | |||
| * For 14 years the WMF has failed to provide any estimate of how long it is expected to take to fix this. | |||
| * For 14 years the WMF has failed to create any requirements for fixing this. (Note: "Requirements" is geek talk for "please define what 'done' is and tell us exactly how how we will recognize that whoever is working on this is done"). | |||
| * For 14 years the WMF has failed to make a plan for an independent third party (which in this case means "someone with a visual impairment accessing Misplaced Pages with a screen reader") to look at the results and verify whether the requirements were met. | |||
| Could you or your page watchers help me with ]? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites. | |||
| If the WMF is not capable of solving it, why have we not put out a call for proposals in order to find someone who can? | |||
| ], standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber]] | |||
| You can expect me to bring this up again when we hit 15 years of Misplaced Pages violating the Americans with Disabilities Act, as I have for the last four years. :( --] (]) 21:06, 1 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. ] (]) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : |
:If Godber is not ], which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::] is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? ] (]) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I dunno, but ] wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. ] (]) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] | |||
| ::::And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". ] (]) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Godber's photographs include "views of the ] including large numbers of cars traveling to ], and the ]. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the ] Homestead in ] with scenes of farm life, including ], ] sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the ], ], ], the ], and the Hillside Railway Workshops); ] (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, ], ], ], ] and ]. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the ], and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the ], ], ] area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori ] and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." ] (]) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. ] (]) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. ] (]) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == == | |||
| : I think it is unfortunate that you have not added "and a pony" to your list of demands -- it would make the ] more palatable. --] (]) 01:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is the first ''I've'' "heard" of it. ] (]) 02:38, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::The above snarky "the unseriousness with which you habitually treat this issue" comment (and calling my request that we stop discriminating against the handicapped a "demand" as if I am somehow being unreasonable) is typical of WMF apologists. For ''years'' I diligently followed every single "you aren't asking in the right place" or "you aren't asking the right way" suggestion, and the end result was... nothing. If JBL thinks I am somehow approaching this the wrong way, I suggest that they show me how it's done, approach it in what they think is the right way, and see if they can get better results than I can. --] (]) 06:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::: You are not making requests, you are making childish foot-stamping demands. Ten months ago, you were suggested a particular person to reach out to who could help with the issue. As below, you rejected taking constructive action in favor of reiterating childish foot-stamping demands. People who hope to accomplish something should be reaching out to potential leads and trying to build a constituency of the like-minded; childish foot-stamping on Jimbo's talk-page does nothing to accomplish this goal. --] (]) 13:37, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Right. Not discriminating against the handicapped is a "childish foot-stamping demand". You are coming very close to crossing the ] line. Could you please put away the flamethrower and go back to your previous snarky sniping? | |||
| :::::Re: "you were suggested a particular person to reach out to who could help with the issue", that person has zero authority to add this to the WMF budget and zero authority to ask any WMF employee to work on it. | |||
| :::::Also that person had already volunteered to "look into it" as an unpaid volunteer so it's not like they were not aware of the problem and needed me to tell them about it. ], I played the "you aren't asking in the right place" game for years, dutifully following every suggestion ov a new place to bring it up, and the result was accusations of ]. | |||
| :::::If you honestly think that there is some different place that this can be asked or some different person who can be asked that will magically fix the problem, '''do it yourself''' and prove me wrong. I am done playing ]. --] (]) 14:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: {{tq|Not discriminating against the handicapped is a "childish foot-stamping demand".}} No. A person can make childish foot-stamping demands about anything; it happens you are making them in relation to an important issue. If you want to improve the situation, you should drop the ridiculous posturing. --] (]) 16:58, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :In case you missed it there has been recent activity at ] and ] on this. ] (]) 11:46, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::Does any of this activity involve anyone who has the authority to give a WMF employee an assignment, the authority to add this to the WMF budget, or the authority to set a deadline for completion? How about someone who works for such a person and thus might be able to suggest that they do those things? Realistically, does anyone reading this believe that is there a non-zero chance that Misplaced Pages will stop discriminating against the visually impaired any time before the original Phab ticket is old enough to vote? --] (]) 12:33, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| This is a good point by Guy, thank you. Yet it seems {{u|Graham87}} is doing fine as a top 200 editor (Graham, what is your take on this, anything you'd suggest, or do you know of any tech which the foundation and Misplaced Pages are missing?) and the may be another group of editors who would have an interest. ] (]) 13:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, because I started on Misplaced Pages long before CAPTCHAs were a thing. It's inconvenient but not impossible for blind people to get around CAPTCHAs, either by asking somebody for help or using special programs. Making CAPTCHAs accessible is a very hard problem to fix tdue to the Wikimedia Foundation's (admirable) insistance on using non-proprietary software and the difficulty of making it possible for humans to crack CAPTCHAs while deterring spambots and the like. The current CAPTCHA system doesn't just suck for blind people ... it also sucks for people who don't have English as their first language and probably others. ''']'''] 13:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, this does appear to be a hard problem. If I saw that the WMF had assigned personnel, a budget, and a deadline followed by a report from those working on it that they tried and could not do it, this would have been a completely different post. --] (]) 13:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::Is the problem mainly signing up as a new member with CPTCHAs in place? Asking for help (either in person or through a sent image to the friend, family member, or to the foundation itself) seems the easiest work around. Taking down CPTCHA doesn't seem a viable or recommended option. ] (]) 14:06, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I am not suggesting taking down CAPCHA or any other specific solution. We already have a boatload of those. I am suggesting that the WMF assign someone to the job of fixing this problem. --] (]) 14:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: Graham, I'm wondering if there are access issues with the alternate ] process. The ADA doesn't require identical access, it requires reasonable access, so the pertinent question is whether this utility meets that threshold, and if not, how it fails to do so. ]]<sub><small>]</small></sub><sup style="margin-left:-3.0ex">]</sup> 14:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::Interesting thought. If you find a way to solve this with some sort of alternative, please post it so that the ticket can be closed. --] (]) 14:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::*{{Ping|Guy Macon}}, I'm sorry to say, but I had no idea about that utility until I read the thread from January. This does not speak well to your attitude in this matter. If you care about the actual issue instead of holding a vendetta against WMF (and trust me, I'd '''completely''' understand if you did), then you really should be reading to understand instead of reading to respond.]]<sub><small>]</small></sub><sup style="margin-left:-3.0ex">]</sup> 16:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::CAPTCHAs don't just occur when creating accounts; they can also come up when non-autoconfirmed/confirmed users try to add external links, which can happen in surprising ways ... and the software seems to be quite finicky about when it thinks an external link was added. The request an account process, which would work for screen reader users, was at the back of my mind when I replied but the last time I'd heard it was infamous for having an incredibly long backlog. That ], which is a very good thing. ''']'''] 14:44/15:50, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@Graham87; Ahh, I was unaware that you could run into Captchas when adding some content. I'm wondering if there shouldn't just be a link to automatically add an edit request to the talk page when that happens. ]]<sub><small>]</small></sub><sup style="margin-left:-3.0ex">]</sup> 16:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The ] points such users to the help desk, which is probably the most sensible option here. ''']'''] 16:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If it's a one-off thing, then absolutely the help desk is probably just fine. But if it happens to a user adding that kind of content at every page they visit, then that is problematic and we need to have a workable accommodation to get around the limitations of the Misplaced Pages Captcha system. ]]<sub><small>]</small></sub><sup style="margin-left:-3.0ex">]</sup> 17:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| Want to try something interesting? Go to and . Log out of Misplaced Pages, run the screen reader, turn off your monitor, and try to create an account on Misplaced Pages. See how far you get. If you manage to get to the request an account page, instead of actually requesting an account just post a message explaining that you are testing accessibility with a screen reader and then self-revert. (It's OK to print out a cheat sheet for the NVDA commands; presumably if you had no vision you would have them memorized or would create a cheat sheet in braille.) Now try following the instruction in the CAPTCHA help text, but this time if you manage to get to the help desk post a test message and then self-revert. --] (]) 22:38, 2 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| That doesn't sound good. From '']''. ] (]) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Donation == | |||
| :Being discussed at ]. ] (]) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I just LOVE it when the donation banner pushes the article content completely off the screen. ] (]) 02:09, 3 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks! ] (]) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Also discussed at ] and ]. ] (]) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to from {{u|Tryptofish}}? | |||
| == For the interested == | |||
| :... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, {{u|Jimbo Wales}} will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than ] was. | |||
| :Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage ''et al.'' is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --] (]) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face. | |||
| Quoting '']'': | |||
| :As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--] (]) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Suddenly ] going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. ] (]) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{tq|That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.}} Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. ] (]) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| ''""'' | |||
| Hey Mr. Wales, there's a discussion on ] about what image should be used on your Misplaced Pages entry. Figured you may want to chime in with personal opinion about the recent freely-licensed images of you that are presented, as there hasn't been much engagement there at the time of my post. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 21:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| More at . It's about the article ]. ] (]) 10:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 15 January 2025 == | |||
| :For me the important thing is that Misplaced Pages be accurate and neutral. The particular area of interest here, Aksai Chin, is nowhere near Bhutan and has no relevance to the topic of Bhutan-India relations. We should follow the NPOV practice that we follow elsewhere, indicating disputed areas objectively. In this particular case, if you visit the entry ], another article which has nothing to do with Aksai Chin, you can see that Aksai Chin is shown with a dotted outline indicating the disputed status. And on the articles ] and ] all maps clearly show the disputed areas as being disputed. | |||
| :Indeed, this map is the only map that I can find in Misplaced Pages (there may be others, I have not conducted a comprehensive search) which fails to inform the reader in some way that the area is disputed. | |||
| :I strongly disagree with threats of censorship, of course. But someone threatening to ban Misplaced Pages for an error, is not a justification to continue in error.--] (]) 11:24, 3 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::See also , which zooms in on the disputed area. Whether India likes it or not, the disputed area is administered by China. Who owns it? Well both India and China say its theirs...like two toddlers fighting over a toy. ] <sup>]</sup>] 20:55, 3 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, that's a good map - it informs the reader, and it is neutral about the dispute.--] (]) 10:11, 4 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2025-01-15}} </div><!--Volume 21, Issue 1--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 07:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| ==Hello== | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1269316164 --> | |||
| == A brownie for you! == | |||
| Hello! <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| {| style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #fdffe7); border: 1px solid var(--border-color-success, #fceb92); color: var(--color-base, #202122);" | |||
| ==Concern== | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
| There are a number of pictures in various articles and on commons that contain sacred temple robes worn by members of ]. The problem with this is that the person behind the photos trespassed to get them. The photographer, known as NewNameNoah/Mike Norton, as previously been arrested for trespassing. And now that every temple knows him, and will call the police if he steps foot on the property, Mike Norton has begun forging temple recommends, and handing them out to people, so they too can enter illegally. My biggest concern with this is, as mentioned above, they often show our sacred temple garments and our sacred rituals. These pictures are offensive and disregard the sacredness of the temple. Keep in mind, we as members of the LDS Church, don't like discussing what happens inside these sacred edifices, we don't like to share what our robes look like, and we especially do not like when people bully us by publishing what we hold dear in our hearts. We as citizens of the world, should be respectful to all religions and faiths. I have gone through so many options, and honestly I am running out of options. I have put my problem on Teahouse, talked with several wikipedians, and even debated the deletion of these images. Is there anything else I can/should do? Is there anyway that these images can be removed on the grounds of common respect? Your help will be greatly appreciated! | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | brownie :D ] 19:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 16:19, 5 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| :{{u|Matthew.weller}}, Misplaced Pages is ]. We have plenty of photos that some people find offensive. Muslims frequently rankle that we have depictions of the prophet Muhammed, but we don't delete the photos because they are a useful visual aid. We have plenty of photographs on Misplaced Pages that were taken illegally, but that are invaluable. Take for example the ]. Different subject for sure, but illegal, and yet some of the most important photographs ever taken. Many find the photos distasteful, but they are illustrative. Misplaced Pages does not remove photographs for any of the concerns you have raised, I'm afraid. We are an archive of knowledge, and such photos represent previously unknown knowledge, and we are appreciative of our volunteers who provide that knowledge. ] <sup>]</sup>] 20:17, 5 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| == Do you remember back when you first had this idea? == | |||
| You're the subject on a delist FPC. Please, give us your feedback. ] (]) 01:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I have this strange compulsion that ] means something important. Its still in my head all jumbled up, however, Out of Chaos, Order has been accomplished, to a degree that should you call your attention to the link you might choose to respond. You are being advised that I have dropped your name into the call for assembly and before it goes further (with your referenced) I felt the need for proper introduction. I am User:Paptilian, browser of anything Wiki Foundation, Commons, Data, not sure what all, and as such have requested the attention of the Foundation, my mind tells me this is That Big. For it reaches into the Governor's Office, not just Colorado, but the Secretary of State's office, and that all the way to the President's staff. Ok, admitted, I dream big and in color. But it's true. I leave you with the invitation to attend Roll Call. Yours, very respectfully, User:Paptilian. ps May I have an official user name (I forget what its called at this moment as a lot on my mind in happening. registered name. ] ] 16:38, 5 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :{{u|Paptilian}}, ....what in the what? Could you explain that in clear English? And also explain what your various user subpages are about? You do know that the state of ] already exists, yes? ] <sup>]</sup>] 20:24, 5 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
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Centralized discussion
For a listing of ongoing discussions, see the dashboard.Albert Percy Godber
Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.
Could you or your page watchers help me with Draft:Albert Percy Godber? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.
I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Godber is not WP:NOTABLE, which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. Polygnotus (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- user:Polygnotus is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I dunno, but User:Sulfurboy wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. Polygnotus (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- user:Polygnotus is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". FloridaArmy (talk) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Godber's photographs include "views of the Hutt Valley including large numbers of cars traveling to Trentham Racecourse, and the Hutt River. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the Mendip Hills Homestead in Canterbury, New Zealand with scenes of farm life, including haymaking, merino sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the Ross Reservoir, Otago Boys' High School, Seacliff Mental Hospital, the 1926 Dunedin Exhibition, and the Hillside Railway Workshops); Invercargill (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, Moeraki, Tuatapere, Waiau River, Oamaru and Port Chalmers. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the Burnside Iron Mills, and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the Piha, Karekare, Anawhata area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori marae and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." FloridaArmy (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. Here's a link to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. Carrite (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Scoop: Heritage Foundation plans to ‘identify and target’ Misplaced Pages editors
That doesn't sound good. From The Forward. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. CMD (talk) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Evidence#Edit_request and Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Heritage_Foundation_planning_to_dox_Wikipedia_editors. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to these concerns from Tryptofish?
- ... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, Jimbo Wales will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than Claudine Gay was.
- Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage et al. is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Sita Bose (talk) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
- As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suddenly ANI going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. BusterD (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suddenly ANI going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Talk:Jimmy_Wales#Newer_2024_image?
Hey Mr. Wales, there's a discussion on Talk:Jimmy_Wales#Newer_2024_image? about what image should be used on your Misplaced Pages entry. Figured you may want to chime in with personal opinion about the recent freely-licensed images of you that are presented, as there hasn't been much engagement there at the time of my post. BarntToust 21:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
The Signpost: 15 January 2025
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A brownie for you!
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brownie :D Sir Macaw 19:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC) |
Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/delist/Jimmy Wales
You're the subject on a delist FPC. Please, give us your feedback. ArionStar (talk) 01:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
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