Revision as of 20:06, 5 February 2024 editPolyamorph (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers29,988 edits OneClickArchived "Misleading text in paragraph under "combustion"" to Talk:Hydrogen/Archive 3← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 01:00, 18 January 2025 edit undoJlwoodwa (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers82,378 edits →Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2025: Edit request not done: The requested change requires consensus first (Edit Request Tool) | ||
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⚫ | == Semi-protected edit request on |
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== Early universe and development of hydrogen == | |||
⚫ | {{ |
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Greetings, | |||
I am a high-school amateur physicist with an interest in physical chemistry. My overall credentials include AP Physics 1, AP Physics 2, AP Chemistry, and amateur work in radiology. | |||
Thanks! ] (]) 21:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
: Hi Moriarty49. Welcome! ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 23:00, 25 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Welcome. If you're granted access, please consider taking care of the issue I mentioned days ago right above your post. Sunlight does not ignite a hydrogen and oxygen (or air) mixture. The current editors don't seem to be interested in fixing this. ] (]) 00:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
::I apologize for being slow on this. Addressing it now. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 01:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
I am wondering whether or not mention of the development of hydrogen in the early universe is lacking. Currently, there is a mention of it in the lede, where it describes at what point in time hydrogen first existed, then at what point in time electrons joined hydrogens. This is not elaborated anywhere else in the article, which I feel could be very useful, where one could include other relevant pieces of information, such as at what point molecular hydrogen first formed. Also, the mention of the formation of hydrogens' protons do not appear in its subsequent source, and is disputed to be slightly longer than that (see ], although perhaps the article could be referring to the creation of protons, and not nucleosynthesis? It is not clear). <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:1.5px;background-color:darkgreen;">]</span><sub>]</sub> 02:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
⚫ | == Plural == | ||
I am reviewing this very old FA as part of ], an effort to determine whether old ] still meet the ]. Last reviewed in 2008, there is considerable uncited text, the "Phases" section is only a list, Niche and evolving uses is a list, there is some overquoting, the See also section needs attention, and there may be more. Listing at ]. ] (]) 18:06, 1 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
H, C and O, if referring to ], ], and ]; should be ]ized as H's, C's, and O's (with ]s); as opposed to Hs, Cs, and Os (no apostrophes); to avoid confusion with Hs = ], Cs = ], and Os = ]. The fact that hassium is an unstable, artificial element which has never been procured in macroscopic amounts, doesn't mean that clarity isn't compromised by the absence of said apostrophe. I remember, a chemistry book which was available online for free as a ], did said plurals without an apostrophe; which annoyed me. ] (]) 03:02, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for reviewing this Sandy. This strikes me as a very difficult topic to bring to FA standards. I can't think of any article that spans as much of the Dewey Decimal System and as many university textbooks as this one does. It's an important topic in basic science of course, and also an important part of the conversation around climate change mitigation, which is in the realm of technology and economics. In addition to the points you raised, there is also some repetition, excessive detail/trivia, and breaking news. | |||
:Part of the reason for repetition is that the climate change story is not well-integrated and solving that would require some pretty deep structural reworking. I could probably improve some things from a climate change perspective but to make the necessary progress we'd also need to have at least one experienced chemistry editor give it some dedicated work. Any volunteers? ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 00:33, 7 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I found no such usage in this article. ] (]) 04:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== What are your thoughts making up in your mind about restoring the version done by ] newly to the original one? == | |||
== White / gold / natural hydrogen == | |||
I had sought a matter concerning about the change of factual content in this article, exactly he made two edits in total, include the removal of the subject ''''it'''' (more detail in the page history), and rechange to the word ''''with'''', which the editor named '''Turnbull''' has pointed it out. Are you seeing that consistent? And whom of you are keen to edit or fix some wording? I'd love to hear from you as soon as before I turn offline. Thanks, you are welcome to response my idea. ] (]) 12:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
{{ping|Clayoquot}} I think what you've is outdated as there are now various projects looking to utilise hydrogen found in geological features: which wasn't the case 30 years ago. That's not the best of sources to use here, but we should include the info somewhere. I see a brief mention in ] but that's not the best source either. ] (]) 20:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:In my perspective, I'm not in favor of that change. If anyone makes up an opinion, feel free to let me know. ] (]) 12:35, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I like {{xt|... chemical element{{ins|; it has}} symbol}} better than {{xtn|... chemical element with symbol}}. I looked at like twenty other element articles and they all start with the format of the first sentence ("it has"). Not a big deal, but prefer the previous verion. ] (]) 13:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
::See ] - {{xt|... chemical element{{ins|; it has}} symbol}} was the outcome of the discussion. <b>]] {]}</b> 17:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::There was a considerable discussion and eventual consensus to use the "; it has" version. Changes should follow ]. ] (]) 18:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
:We have ] which is linked, but only in the lead (as dihydrogen) and the see also. ] (]) 20:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Hello, may you put heading infomation to notify the readers we are looking through the article about a chemical element? == | |||
==Carrier business== | |||
{{ping|Clayoquot}} So H2 is not a fuel, it is a carrier. Also, from ], we read "carriers include springs, electrical batteries, capacitors, pressurized air, dammed water, hydrogen, petroleum, coal, wood, and natural gas." That seems to about wrap it up for combustable stuff (surprise: they are definitely not fuels!). | |||
What we are trying to convey in this article is not whether H2 is a fuel or a carrier, but that a large effort is dedicated to what one might call "H2 carriers" (carriers of carriers?). Engineers like H2 as a not-fuel-fuel because it burns cleanly and it can be made from abundant resources (water). But engineers dislike H2 as a not-fuel-fuel because it is not readily condensed or stored. So engineers have dedicated much effort to systems that are ''carriers for H2,'' which are H-rich materials that are reversibly release H2 on demand. So, we have a predicament that editors might help with: on one hand we have the nomenclaturists who insist that H2 is a carrier, and on the other hand we have engineers who are trying to solve problems, not with nomenclature, but with energy, and they are focused on carriers for H2. | |||
Should there be any way to make a notification that we are currently reading the article about a chemical element? Thanks and I'm seeking for response. ] (]) 11:44, 26 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
Hope that makes sense. --] (]) 21:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Don't you know the hatnote? ] (]) 13:07, 15 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Ah – from your original request it appeared you wanted the information to be placed in the prose of the article. {{done}} ] (]) 17:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Yup, I hear you and Smartse. I've got some ideas for making everyone happy... but I also just got handed a new task at work so I won't be able to flesh things out yet. I'll self-revert for now and will come back to this in a few days. Cheers, ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 23:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== I don't think hydrogen was coined in 1783 by Lavoisier == | |||
== Discovery in article vs template == | |||
Exactly as the title says, the citation for that claim doesn't even mention Lavoisier, and after searching around I found a source which claims Lavoisier's writings didn't refer to "inflammable air" as hydrogen for all of 1784 (https://gwern.net/doc/history/1851-wilson-thelifeofthehonhenrycavendish.pdf pages 151-152) and another source which pegs the earliest usage of hydrogen as 1787 in ''Méthode de nomenclature chimie'' (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10698-022-09448-5) by Morveau et al. This source also claims to have not found an instance of the term "hydrogen" in Lavoisier's work before 1787. | |||
@] | |||
Given the language of the original source using "we", I also think it's very possible that Lavoisier shouldn't receive full credit and it may be shared with Morveau, although it's hard to confirm as I do not speak French. ] (]) 10:41, 22 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
In the article we learn that Boyle discovered a reaction: | |||
* {{tq|In 1671, Irish scientist Robert Boyle discovered and described the reaction...}} | |||
and but that | |||
* {{tq|In 1766, Henry Cavendish was the first to recognize hydrogen gas as a discrete substance...}} and | |||
{{tq|He is usually given credit for the discovery of hydrogen as an element.}} | |||
and | |||
* {{tq|In 1783, Antoine Lavoisier identified the element that came to be known as hydrogen...}} | |||
This is inconsistent with the infobar content. | |||
During this era of history the nature of elements and especially of gases was unclear. You can see that in the sources. The concept of "discovery" of the element makes little sense. I think if the infobar must have a "discoverer", then all three should be listed. ] (]) 22:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:For what it's worth, the 1783 date was added to the article back in 2006 by the late editor Sbharris. ] ] ] 10:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I raised the question at the Reference Desk and am just going to copy the response here: | |||
{{block quote|text=The French Misplaced Pages has an article on the treatise '']'' by Morveau and others, published in 1787. The etymology section for ''hydrogène'' of the ] only mentions the 1787 treatise.<sup></sup> While this may have been the first publication using the term ''hydrogène'',<sup></sup> Lavoisier praises Morveau in the introduction of this treatise for his major role in designing the new nomenclature. Morveau himself uses the spelling ''Hidrogène''.<sup></sup> Since he explicitly credits Lavoisier for the name ''oxygène'', it is unlikely the name ''hydrogène'' is due to specifically Lavoisier. Morveau acknowledges the role of unnamed members of the Académie, as does Lavoisier in the introduction. Morveau published a treatise on the nomenclature in 1782;<sup></sup> it would be interesting to see which name he proposed there for "the base of inflammable air". --] 19:32, 24 December 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
⚫ | == Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2025 == | ||
:If the first instance of hydrogène in print was the ''Méthode de nomenclature chimique'', we should change the 1783 date. Note that ''Méthode'' had four authors: Morveau, Lavoisier, Claude Louis Berthollet, and Antoine François Fourcroy. Based on the sources above, I suggest we change the article to indicate that the naming occurred ''by'' 1787 and attribute the coinage to the document rather than to Lavoisier. ] ] ] 16:46, 25 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::I've been researching this obsessively for about a month and I managed to find a source by Morveau in 1786 (without any authorship by Lavoisier, or even Berthollet and Fourcroy) that refers to inflammable air as hydrogen: https://books.google.com/books?id=489jAAAAcAAJ | |||
::On page 640 is the first instance discussing renaming inflammable air to hydrogen. This isn't definitive enough for my curiosity but it does definitively push the coining of the term back a year. ] (]) 14:50, 30 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Edit: after reading further it seems a detail that isn't mentioned anywhere (including the French wikipedia article for the ]), is that the latter half of the encyclopedia wasn't published until after 1786 (it appears 1789), and the portion I pointed out before in the 2nd Forward is actually taken directly from the 1787 treatise, it's possible that the section on AIR which does contain references to hydrogen was included in the original 1786 version but this seems unlikely given the structure of the text, so disregard the previous comment. ] (]) 17:33, 30 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
⚫ | {{Edit semi-protected|Hydrogen|answered=yes}} | ||
== I have an opinion that we should modify the lead sentence to be more a bit constructive. == | |||
Change all the American spellings to British spellings because this article is written in British English (see top of talk page). ] (]) 00:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:] '''Not done for now''': please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 01:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I have come up with the suggestion to change some detail like: It is the lightest element, and at normal temperature, is a gas with the formula {{chem2|H2}}. Best moving to: It is the lightest element on Earth. At normal temperture, this element is a gas with the formula {{chem2|H2}}. Any thoughts? ] (]) 14:27, 25 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
⚫ | == |
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A Carton Is In Geometry Dash. It's Orange, Its Not A Partition ] (]) 22:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC) |
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Early universe and development of hydrogen
I am wondering whether or not mention of the development of hydrogen in the early universe is lacking. Currently, there is a mention of it in the lede, where it describes at what point in time hydrogen first existed, then at what point in time electrons joined hydrogens. This is not elaborated anywhere else in the article, which I feel could be very useful, where one could include other relevant pieces of information, such as at what point molecular hydrogen first formed. Also, the mention of the formation of hydrogens' protons do not appear in its subsequent source, and is disputed to be slightly longer than that (see Big Bang nucleosynthesis, although perhaps the article could be referring to the creation of protons, and not nucleosynthesis? It is not clear). MrMeAndMrMeTalk 02:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Plural
H, C and O, if referring to hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen; should be pluralized as H's, C's, and O's (with apostrophes); as opposed to Hs, Cs, and Os (no apostrophes); to avoid confusion with Hs = hassium, Cs = cesium, and Os = osmium. The fact that hassium is an unstable, artificial element which has never been procured in macroscopic amounts, doesn't mean that clarity isn't compromised by the absence of said apostrophe. I remember, a chemistry book which was available online for free as a PDF, did said plurals without an apostrophe; which annoyed me. Solomonfromfinland (talk) 03:02, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I found no such usage in this article. Johnjbarton (talk) 04:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
White / gold / natural hydrogen
@Clayoquot: I think what you've just replaced is outdated as there are now various projects looking to utilise hydrogen found in geological features: which wasn't the case 30 years ago. That's not the best of sources to use here, but we should include the info somewhere. I see a brief mention in Hydrogen#Terrestrial but that's not the best source either. SmartSE (talk) 20:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- We have natural hydrogen which is linked, but only in the lead (as dihydrogen) and the see also. SmartSE (talk) 20:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Carrier business
@Clayoquot: So H2 is not a fuel, it is a carrier. Also, from energy carrier, we read "carriers include springs, electrical batteries, capacitors, pressurized air, dammed water, hydrogen, petroleum, coal, wood, and natural gas." That seems to about wrap it up for combustable stuff (surprise: they are definitely not fuels!).
What we are trying to convey in this article is not whether H2 is a fuel or a carrier, but that a large effort is dedicated to what one might call "H2 carriers" (carriers of carriers?). Engineers like H2 as a not-fuel-fuel because it burns cleanly and it can be made from abundant resources (water). But engineers dislike H2 as a not-fuel-fuel because it is not readily condensed or stored. So engineers have dedicated much effort to systems that are carriers for H2, which are H-rich materials that are reversibly release H2 on demand. So, we have a predicament that editors might help with: on one hand we have the nomenclaturists who insist that H2 is a carrier, and on the other hand we have engineers who are trying to solve problems, not with nomenclature, but with energy, and they are focused on carriers for H2.
Hope that makes sense. --Smokefoot (talk) 21:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yup, I hear you and Smartse. I've got some ideas for making everyone happy... but I also just got handed a new task at work so I won't be able to flesh things out yet. I'll self-revert for now and will come back to this in a few days. Cheers, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Discovery in article vs template
@WikiCorrector5241 In the article we learn that Boyle discovered a reaction:
In 1671, Irish scientist Robert Boyle discovered and described the reaction...
and but that
In 1766, Henry Cavendish was the first to recognize hydrogen gas as a discrete substance...
and
He is usually given credit for the discovery of hydrogen as an element.
and
In 1783, Antoine Lavoisier identified the element that came to be known as hydrogen...
This is inconsistent with the infobar content.
During this era of history the nature of elements and especially of gases was unclear. You can see that in the sources. The concept of "discovery" of the element makes little sense. I think if the infobar must have a "discoverer", then all three should be listed. Johnjbarton (talk) 22:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2025
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change all the American spellings to British spellings because this article is written in British English (see top of talk page). 2600:1700:14BE:E00:B56A:1711:D3E7:DCB6 (talk) 00:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{Edit semi-protected}}
template. jlwoodwa (talk) 01:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
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