| Revision as of 00:03, 10 June 2024 edit2401:d002:b50c:2d00:651e:f814:bd5a:520c (talk) →Shouldn't the yellow section of the map be 2-99 not 1-99?: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 05:01, 17 January 2025 edit undoLordOfWalruses (talk | contribs)208 edits →Why is Israel italicized?: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic | ||
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| * <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Foreign and dual-national casualties) ]. <!-- {"title":"Foreign and dual-national casualties","appear":{"revid":1179476286,"parentid":1179476252,"timestamp":"2023-10-10T11:06:20Z","replaced_anchors":{"Foreign & dual-national casualties":"Foreign and dual-national casualties"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":1182668837,"parentid":1182668058,"timestamp":"2023-10-30T17:34:41Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} --> | |||
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| == Wikidata list of ongoing conflicts == | == Wikidata list of ongoing conflicts == | ||
| The following automatically generated list shows conflics that have start dates but no end date in ]. It is updated every 60s day. It might be useful in keeping this article up to date. The content of the table affects wikidata based infoboxes used in Misplaced Pages articles about wars on other Misplaced Pages versions, for example ] used in Swedish Misplaced Pages. Please help by fixing any errors in the wikidata objects. | The following automatically generated list shows conflics that have start dates but no end date in ]. It is updated every 60s day. It might be useful in keeping this article up to date. The content of the table affects wikidata based infoboxes used in Misplaced Pages articles about wars on other Misplaced Pages versions, for example ] used in Swedish Misplaced Pages. Please help by fixing any errors in the wikidata objects. | ||
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| {{wikidata list end}} | {{wikidata list end}} | ||
| ==Inaccurate and tendentious categorisation of Israel-Hamas war== | |||
| == Corrections of Inaccuracies and Omissions == | |||
| Grouping all of the wars Israel has been involved in since 1948 as one conflict is self-evidently non-factual, tendentious and deliberately intended to inflate the total casualty count (which itself is highly dubious; hundreds of thousands!? Add up the casualties in the 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982 and then other conflicts does not come close to 300,000). The total Arab casualties in all of the wars of the Arab-Israeli conflict in the Arab-Israeli conflict article is around 90,000. If you're actually saying Israel is a "belligerent in the Yemeni civil war", and then adding all of the deaths from that conflict (given Israel has not struck back at all and is not at war with Yemen or Houthis, and has not caused any deaths in Yemen) is so obviously biased, as is calling Israel a "belligerent" in what are, in fact, unlawful terror attacks by a non-state actor. | |||
| In the column showing location, there are several historical errors: | |||
| I don't know how to do a signature here so sorry User:Idontknowhowtodothissorry ''-- 2 May 2024 2a02:6b6d:1338:0:fd31:8c17:3cf2:3a56'' | |||
| In Major Wars: | |||
| The war involving Israel is misnamed and misleading. It was NOT the "Israeli- Palestinian conflict." It WAS named Israel War of Independence. The day after its statehood, Israel was attacked by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and a formation from Saudi Arabia that fought under Egypt. Under 20,000 died in that war. Iraq and Yemen were not involved, and there were no "Palestinians " or "Palestine" in 1948. The term "Palestinian" was created by Arafat in 1964. The refugees from the War of Independence were called "refugees." | |||
| == Total Casualties for 2023 and 2024 of Israel-Gaza and Israel-Lebanon War double counts casualties again== | |||
| (The attacks on Israel from "refugees" began in the 1950s. The attacks on Christians and Jews in the area (now Israel) before statehood were from "Arabs" living in the region beginning with Arab Colonialism in the 7th century.) | |||
| According to the UN impact report, the total casualties of the Israel Gaza war are 45,000 for both years. Casualties for Lebanon total 3,000. Therefore a total equaling 53,000 to 63,000 over counts casualties by 5,000-15,000. | |||
| 2023 casualties should be 22,000 or so, and 2024 should be 26,000. | |||
| In Wars (1,000- 9,999): | |||
| Israel is incorrectly shown as involved in the area 2014 Yemeni Civil War. Israel was not involved nor in any way related to the cause of this conflict. Placing Israel in this conflict as a location is both misleading and revisionist. | |||
| https://www.ochaopt.org/content/reported-impact-snapshot-gaza-strip-17-december-2024 | |||
| Yemen's current attacks are a new conflict and not just limited to Israel and include Saudi Arabia, US, Pakistan, Norway, UK, and Panama. Those countries should be included in "location" for 2023. | |||
| https://apnews.com/article/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-death-toll-798b846237a24ed37490ea29bd4e3aba <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| In the Minor Deaths Conflict. | |||
| Note that the Upsala Conflict Database--cited by the wikipedia page here as a source--actually concurs with the lower numbers I mentioned. | |||
| In the 1948 Israeli-Lebanonese conflict, there is an icon and link to the Palestinian flag. There is no country named "Palestine" now, and there wasn't one in 1948. The 1948 attack on Israel by Lebanon had nothing to do with "Palestinians." By including an incorrect reference to them, the site contains revisionist history. | |||
| In other words, by both the official UN sources AND the *sources cited* the casualties listed as incorrect. We could perhaps chalk this up to the page editor not clicking the dis-aggregated view of the data, but given the frequency of tendentious casualty reporting on this subject, where, for example, 50,000 casualties from the Lebanon War are attributed to Israel despite them occurring before Israel entered the war--which, again, is what the sources cited themselves indicated--I am skeptical. | |||
| The Palestinian flag is incorrectly shown as being a country and participant in this war. The term "Palestinian" became a reference to refugees of this war in 1964 by Arafat. | |||
| https://ucdp.uu.se/year/2023 | |||
| It also seems that this database was incorrectly cited, as indicating casualties rather than attacks | |||
| In Deaths by Country | |||
| https://acleddata.com/2024/10/10/israels-gaza-middle-east-a-year-in-numbers/ | |||
| As their own casualty estimate is " This brought the total fatality toll of Palestinians killed since 7 October 2023 to more than 45,000. While the IDF pressed on with a grinding war in Gaza, the intensity of its operations decreased as Israel gained greater operational control over the Gaza Strip. Israeli forces targeted all five governorates of Gaza, but the highest number of attacks hit Gaza City and Dayr al-Balah. " | |||
| "Palestine" is not a country and is the only inclusion of an ethnic group. Please remove or reclassify it to what it currently really is. | |||
| This means literally every source cited contradicts the number presented! | |||
| Please change the estimates to their correct numbers of 22,000 and 26,000. | |||
| Omissions: | |||
| Sahel | |||
| Indonesia | |||
| Philippines | |||
| Taiwon-China ] (]) 08:32, 2 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ==Prior Double Counting Not Addressed, Current Double Counting Only Worsens the Issue--Official & NGO Estimates put total casualties of IP conflict at about 50,000 smaller, at minimum== | |||
| :The naming of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not in the scope of this article as this is the name agreed to be used in various other articles on the topic. Furthermore, its inclusion today does not refer to the initial war of independence, but rather the low-intensity conflict between Israel and its neighbors which has seen intermittent flare-ups ever since. | |||
| :Israeli involvement in the Yemeni civil war is tied to Houthi strikes as a result of the ongoing war against Hamas, hence Israel is marked as a belligerent party both here and on the article. Again, this grievance is not in this page's scope since editors here did not make the call to include it as a phase of the civil war in Yemen. | |||
| :Palestine's inclusion in the Israeli-Lebanese conflict has been removed given that the PLO ceased participation decades ago (a fact reflected in the article as well). | |||
| :Palestine is a ''de jure'' state with deaths on its territory due to one or more conflicts listed in this article and, as such, should be included. ACLED, the source of the casualty statistics, recognizes this and thus catalogues deaths which have occurred within Palestine's borders due to war. | |||
| :The Sahel is not omitted (insurgency in the Maghreb under "major conflicts") nor is Indonesia (Papua conflict under "minor conflicts") or the Philippines (civil conflict and drug war under "minor conflicts"). The Chinese Civil War, though continuing under the Cross-Strait conflict, is omitted because no deaths have been recorded in the past or current calendar year as a result of it. ] (]) 09:26, 3 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Why are the wars in Israel and Myanmar both dated back to 1948, while the war in Ukraine is dated to 2022, despite having ongoing disputes dating back to 2014? I understand this article is not the place where this is decided, so where is the place where that decision is made? | |||
| ::In all 3 cases, there were triggering events in 2022-2023 with subsequent large scale conflicts involving 10,000+ deaths, so I'm curious what the criteria difference is here for Ukraine in this case. As a reader, I think it is much clearer to differentiate between the immediate conflicts and the ongoing conflicts, for example, with the Myanmar coup leading to an outbreak of civil war. ] (]) 03:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::] has the Russo-Ukrainian War entry near the bottom of the table and it is dated to 2014 not 2022, so I don't understand where you get 2022 from? ] (]) 03:32, 2 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh that's right, ok, that makes sense, I mixed something up- ] (]) 04:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Note that even if we use the absurd elevated estimates given producing a 65,000 casualty count, when added to official indices the total for the entire 160 year Zionist Arab conflict is still 190,000. This means even with the inflated estimates provided, the total provided is off by at least 50,000. | |||
| == Maoist insurgency in Turkey == | |||
| http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/ink/israel/findex.htm | |||
| Maoist rebel groups are still active in turkey and skirmishes between Maoist insurgents and Turkish army is still happing so shouldn't the Maoist insurgency in turkey be added to “skirmishes and clashes” ] (]) 01:29, 30 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| https://olive-merralee-23.tiiny.site/ | |||
| :There have not been any known deaths associated with this conflict in 2023 or this year so far in order for it to be on the list. ] (]) 23:39, 5 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::here is a list of deaths due to this conflict | |||
| :: ] (]) 23:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| https://www.systemicpeace.org/warlist/warlist.htm | |||
| == Arab-Israeli conflict == | |||
| https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-casualties-arab-israeli-conflict | |||
| Would it be appropriate to add "]" as the top-level conflict for the "Israeli-Lebanese conflict" listed in the 1000-9999 chart? Like the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict", the "Israeli-Lebanese conflict" got its legs back in the ]. Or going even further, perhaps we should merge these two conflict entries into a single conflict, because they have common origins, tend to flare up together, etc. Discuss here, please. --] (] | ]) 16:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Adding together each: | |||
| :Lebanon barely participated in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Anyway, the current conflict is not really between Israel and the Lebanese government or military as such. It could be OK to group the two conflicts together, but '''DON'T''' indiscriminately merge them, not least because Nasrallah is sniping and harassing at Israel, but not daring to launch a full-scale war, while the Gaza situation has gone beyond that. ] (]) 17:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| 1. Misplaced Pages page estimates of wars | |||
| ::Agree that based on the grouping of all other conflicts since 1948 under the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Israeli-Lebanese conflict falls within the scope of the category. The 1948 article lists Lebanon as a participant with troop counts, cites sources of a Lebanon goal to conquer territory in northern Palestine, ]. Syria and Lebanon are listed as participants in both conflicts as well, and both conflicts are dated to 1948, implying that both sections are including the same Syria-Lebanon-Israel conflict since 1948. | |||
| 2. The Uppsala data base of casualties | |||
| ::I understand the clear distinction between the current conflict in Gaza and the the Israel-Hezbollah engagement, however, I understand from a discussion above that the current methodology in place is to combine all conflicts in areas where there is ongoing violence, which is why the Myanmar conflict is also dated back to 1948. | |||
| 3. The relevant UN reports | |||
| ::Is the logical next step to make an edit request to review/further discuss this change? ] (]) 03:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| 4. Israeli Human Rights Groups reports | |||
| :::I have learned a bit more, and found that the Israeli-Lebanese conflict is listed under the Arab-Israeli conflict in wikidata: https://www.wikidata.org/Q8669. | |||
| 5. The Wars of the World Database | |||
| :::I checked to see if this error occurred in other entries. | |||
| 6. The Palestine Human Rights Monitor Group Estimates | |||
| :::# For Sudan, I found that the 2 concurrent wars listed are not connected by a parent conflict. | |||
| 7. The Battlefield Inequality Database cited by the wikipedia page | |||
| :::# For the Yemen Civil War, I found that this also did not connect back to the Arab-Israeli war, and is correct to list separately. | |||
| 8. Israeli and US official estimates of casualties | |||
| :::# It is unclear why Israel is listed as a belligerent for the Yemen Civil war, although it is not listed as a belligerent in any of the linked articles, including the latest article. The United States is listed as a belligerent in multiple of the conflicts, including the current conflict. | |||
| :::# The Boko Haram insurgency and the Anglophone Crisis in Nigeria are not connected in wikidata | |||
| :::] (]) 04:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Each produces estimates that range from 120,000-210,000 for the period of 1860-2024. | |||
| ::Yes, Lebanon was rhetorically belligerant in 1948, but Lebanese troops fought with Israeli troops in relatively few battles. The Lebanon-Israel fighting was unimpressive compared to other fighting in the 1948 War. ] (]) 11:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you provide a source and clarify what you mean by unimpressive? From our current article on the 1948 war, there are 436 soldiers listed for Lebanon, 300 listed for Yemen, 800-1200 listed for Saudi Arabia, 2500-5000 listed for Syria, 3500-6000 for the Arab liberation army, etc. Currently we list all of these countries as belligerants in the 1948 conflict, and in the arab-israeli conflict dating back to 1948, which is in line with wikidata and the sources. | |||
| :::Are you arguing that we need to modify wikidata, and the article on the 1948 war, and the current entry in the list for the Arab-Israeli war to remove Lebanon? And is your implication to also remove Yemen? Please clarify. | |||
| :::Presently, to be consistent, and without any judgement/sourcing about if the Lebanon-Israel fighting was impressive, we need to combine the Israeli-Lebanese conflict with the Arab-Israeli war, as it's counted twice. | |||
| :::I think it would be great if we could establish a definition of what constitutes a sufficient conflict to qualify as a belligerent, if that hasn't been established already. I'm sure there are existing discussions/guidance on this within wikipedia and from public/international policy sources. ] (]) 02:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| As stated, even adding the higher estimate of the double counted data for 2023 to 2024 to the prior data gives us a casualty estimate that is 50,000 smaller than the one stated. | |||
| ::::I'm not talking about changing anything on Wikidata, but in Quantling's original comment Quantling said "the `Israeli-Lebanese conflict' got its legs back in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War", but while there was a formal state of war, in fact there wasn't much direct fighting between Lebanese and Israeli forces in 1948, which would seem to contradict Quantling's comment. If Quantling meant something different, should have written something different. ] (]) 13:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It is difficult for me to comment on this, because "got its legs" can be interpreted in different ways. At the simplest, it states that something started, which we agree is the case. Beyond that, I understand you are interpreting it to imply that fighting is substantial, and it's unclear if Quantling is interpreting the phrase in the same way, or yet another. | |||
| :::::Given the fighting started in 1948, I'll make a separate edit request to combine the entries. ] (]) 16:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Please correct the total casualty estimate of 242,000-246,000, since the minimum is much lower and the maximum is 210,000. | |||
| Grouping all of the wars Israel has been involved in since 1948 as one conflict is self-evidently non-factual, tendentious and deliberately intended to inflate the total casualty count (which itself is highly dubious; hundreds of thousands!? Add up the casualties in the 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982 and then other conflicts does not come close to 300,000). The total Arab casualties in all of the wars of the Arab-Israeli conflict in the Arab-Israeli conflict article is around 90,000. I don't know how to do a signature here so sorry ] | |||
| An average estimate of 171,000 would be most in line with the sources. But even stating it as 195,000 which 'compromises' by allowing some double counting and inflation for the sake of rhetorical peace, would be much more accurate than the current statement. | |||
| == Map accuracy ? == | |||
| Perhaps then list it as 195,000 (171,000-210,000), since this uses the mean as the floor, while keeping the real ceiling. This allows for some arbitrary biasing upward, as a compromise between the truth and the wikipedia editors who, for whatever their reasons, want to use the incorrect estimates. This, at the very least would reduce the error rate from 42% to 14% at the lower end, and 50% to 25% at the higher end. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:50, 24 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| In other words, this map is not just extremely prejudiced but also outdated. ] (]) 12:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ==Double Counting of Casualties in Israel Palestine Conflict--Casualty Rate Should Read 165,000 (110,000-210,000)== | |||
| :Do you mind elaborating? ] (]) 13:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I do mind, yes. | |||
| ::I could go into more detail, but I know that would just be a waste of time. | |||
| ::There is not a single nation in the West, NATO, or Europe that is colored in any way. | |||
| ::Upon initial glance at the map, it is immediately apparent that the ARAB region has the most color. | |||
| ::Completely unprofessional, prejudiced, and extremely unwikipedian. ] (]) 16:04, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::If you or another editor were to include/suggest an edit for adding an ongoing armed conflict taking place in a currently-unmarked country that satisfies the ], then the map will be updated accordingly. Active conflicts in Western countries have been previously included (e.g. ]) when meeting those requirements. ] (]) 17:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Whether or not I modify, include, suggest, or add a topic to the chat page is entirely up to me. | |||
| ::::The author of this ought to have employed a neutral point of view rather than providing blatantly biased material in an attempt to indoctrinate readers on which nations are unsafe! WhooooA! I am from a nation that is shown on the map in red, but it is safer than the United States when it comes to safety in general. | |||
| ::::According to statistics, there are a lot of gun-related fatalities in the US. In 2023, there were around 43,000 gun-related fatalities, according to organizations like Everytown for Gun Safety and the CDC . | |||
| ::::Oh, you will argue, it is different; it is not military battles. | |||
| ::::Time up! I have wasted enough time already, and I have spoken the painful truth. ] ] 19:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Correct, ]. Conflating homicide with casualties in armed conflict even when reliable sources and organizations such as the make that distinction is blatant ]. | |||
| :::::Now if these deaths were part of a second American Civil War, their inclusion would be perfectly relevant. Fortunately, it is not the job of editors to ] and make all countries seem equally afflicted by conflict when that is not the case. ] (]) 22:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@] I did not suggest that the editors should make every country appear the same—that would be foolish—but rather, I drew attention to the inaccurate map, pointing out that many of the countries marked as such do not actually have any active conflicts going on, and if the article does contain non-active historical conflicts, then where is the American Revolutionary War? World Wars I and II? If I had not known from multiple sources that the map is out of date, I would not have started this discussion. Why do not we just agree on that? ] ] 00:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::What non-active conflicts are included? ] (]) 14:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Let us talk about the active conflicts that are not included. | |||
| ::::::::The ongoing armed conflicts between USA and YEMEN ? ] ] 21:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::How many Americans have died on US soil as a result of the ]? | |||
| :::::::::Per ]: "Location refers to the states where the main violence takes place, '''not to the warring parties'''..." ] (]) 15:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Who gave you the order to determine whether or not to limit the map to nations with casualties on their soils only? ] ] 18:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Whoever first added that without any major opposition. While the consensus to depict locations rather than belligerents hasn't been challenged, it can change; proposing expanding inclusion to countries currently participating in wars (not just the locations of wars) probably warrants a new topic. Judging by a ] I found in the talk page archives, this long predates my editing. ] (]) 18:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I agree that there needs to be a change made regarding this. | |||
| ::::::::::::Really, all of the participating nations must be included in the ongoing armed conflicts in an impartial manner. ] ] 19:09, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::This article is about armed conflicts. The countries not highlighted currently are not at war. If your country is in red, well you have my sympathies, but as long as the data is accurate all the map is doing is representing that. Homicide rates in countries at peace are irrelevant to this. There's no "indoctrination" going on here, please ]. — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 22:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Is Algeria currently at war? How come it is orange? Is there a war in Morocco? Brazil? Saudi-Arabic? India ? Do they have a war going on? Where is the American Revolutionary War? Where is World War I & II, unless we are talking about wars throughout history? Though it is merely words, you can argue that the data is correct. And if you want to restrict free speech, do not bring up the faith practice; it doesn't apply here. I have the right to start a topic and engage in a conversation regarding the map's accuracy. ] ] 23:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It might help if you learnt what "ongoing" means before asking about the American Revolutionary War and other conflicts that are very obviously not "ongoing". ] (]) 23:41, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::It could be beneficial if you read my response with open eyes and notice that I mentioned the ongoing conflicts in nations that the map falsely indicates are at war when they aren't. ] ] 23:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The article does not distinguish whether a country is ''de jure'' at war or verifiably engulfed in armed conflict. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is a ''de jure'' "special military operation" but it is still included, as was the preluding Donbas war which was likewise never a declared, formal war. ] (]) 14:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Did I bring up the Russian-Ukrainian conflict during our conversation? No. | |||
| ::::::::::Using Algeria as an example, what are the current armed conflicts going on there? | |||
| ::::::::::And why are not just de jure war countries included in the article? ] ] 21:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I do not have any more time, so let us stop here. | |||
| ::::::::::Update the map—according to ACLED data, it is out of current. | |||
| ::::::::::Case closed. ] ] 22:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::The map is currently accurate to the criteria upon which it is based, detailing conflicts listed in the article table, accounting for deaths on territory due to conflict (not coloring in countries based on participation) as distinguished between major wars, wars, minor conflicts, and skirmishes. I or someone else will continue updating it if new countries meet the requirements for armed conflict listed out there (or as ACLED numbers for countries are updated, something I've kept to for about a year now). | |||
| :::::::::::Algeria is listed as a location of the ] to which it has suffered conflict-related deaths within its jurisdiction in the past/current year. | |||
| :::::::::::The article is called "List of ongoing armed conflicts" not "List of declared wars/interstate conflicts." "]" already has a section on ]. ] (]) 15:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I will paraphrase from your response: "Algeria is... the past/current year." | |||
| ::::::::::::Provide proof and a reference to the locations of conflict-related deaths in Algeria in 2023/2024. | |||
| ::::::::::::I am holding out! ] ] 18:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::+ | |||
| ::::::::::::Even the ] article is outdated, so it can not be used as a reference to the on-going conflicts. ] ] 19:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::From (1/1/2023-22/3/2024): | |||
| :::::::::::::"ID: 10160903; LOCATION: Bordj Emir Abdelkader; FATALITIES: 1; ACTORS: Military Forces of Algeria (2019-); NOTES: On 10 May 2023, an Algerian army patrol clashed with presumed AQIM militants during a clearing operation in Ain Al Ksira near Bordj Emir Abdelkader (Bordj El Emir Abdelkader, Tisselit). One Algerian soldier was killed and four militants were arrested." | |||
| :::::::::::::"ID: 9790872; LOCATION: Babar; FATALITIES: 4; ACTORS: AQIM: Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb; NOTES: Around 13 January 2023, an IED presumably planted by AQIM militants exploded at the passage of a group of hunters in Boudkhar in the commune of Babar (Babar, Khenchela) killing four of them." | |||
| :::::::::::::Unfortunately for most African conflicts the lack of media reporting makes databases the next best sources. Should the insurgency in the Maghreb be reliably marked as "over," any countries whose deaths can be attributed to that conflict would be unmarked on the map. ] (]) 19:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Heh, they still blame Al Qaeda; those are just a series of routine strikes similar to those that occasionally occur in the US, France, and Russia. Thus, the ongoing battles do not correspond to the year 2024, and it is likely that we are still in 2023. | |||
| ::::::::::::::You discuss media reporting from Africa as though it were a single nation, when in reality, Africa is a continent made up of at least 54 countries, as opposed to North America's 23. Is that not what proves my point? ] ] 19:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::There you have it—the only filter I left out is the violent demonstration, | |||
| ::::::::::::::which does not include using armed battles:(ACLED Dashboard Screenshot) ] ] 19:59, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::The starting date I used goes back to 2023, not 2024, hence "past/current calendar year." In just this year, Algeria has no deaths. ] (]) 21:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::I take it that you are holding out for deaths to happen in 2024 😂? | |||
| ::::::::::::::::If conflicts are not ongoing in 2024, then ongoing must, in my opinion, exclude conflicts from 2023. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::If the sources are available, which they are in this case in ACLED, | |||
| ::::::::::::::::the {{tq|Map of ongoing armed conflicts (number of combat-related deaths in current '''or previous year''')}}, | |||
| ::::::::::::::::must be updated to the current year. ] ] 01:01, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::Plenty of conflicts with casualties only in the past year are included (North Korea, Angola, Peru) mostly under ]. Should they be removed? I concede the phrasing is ambiguous since both "past '''or''' current year" and "past '''and''' current year" are used in the list. ] (]) 01:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::Again I don't care what time span the article chooses to determine a conflict as "ongoing" if a consensus can be reached. | |||
| :::::::::::::::::''My guess is the current 2 year measure was chosen to avoid the list + map being wiped clean every year, which might give the impression that certain ongoing conflicts had just ended (e.g. Syrian civil war 10,000+ casualties 31 December 20XX, one day later completely reset).'' ] (]) 01:58, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::For what reason would you view an annual update to the map as wiping? | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::I do not see why we do not even update the map once a year; | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::what is the point? | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::I believe I was right when I mentioned that since it will merely be a waste of my time, I do not mind elaborating. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::Since editors are no longer free to edit, update, write, or even exist, you are free to do with the map what you choose. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::There is nothing more that I want to talk about, end of discussion. ] ] 02:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::Justification ≠ defense. | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::Want the list to reflect the current year only? If you could directly edit I'd say ], but otherwise, I recommend making an ] and getting editors on board. ] (]) 02:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::{{tq|Justification ≠ defense}} | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::Kindly refrain from using that legal phrase on me; it is reserved for defendants, not Wikipedians. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::Instead of being about (I want), it is about what should be. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::I can't edit; the article is on extended protection. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::Feel free to archive or delete or mark this discussion as resolved, I no longer want to continue | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::discussing, since whether I bring up to date credible sources or not, in the end it doesn't even matter. ] ] 03:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| The table links to a source that includes in its casualty list deaths from the Israel Palestine conflict, but to get the final number the editors added those to the previous number thus double counting them. What's more, the source itself already double counts casualties because it includes dead from the 1947-1949 war twice. | |||
| :::Mystrixo -- With a few seconds of Googling, I found this: "In 2021, 54% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (26,328), while 43% were murders (20,958), according to the CDC." I assume there would be a roughly similar proportion within the 43,000 number you pulled up... ] (]) 01:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I did not pull that number up, EveryTown for Gun Safety Fund did. | |||
| :::: ] ] 02:48, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| But, on top of this, the source is confusing but is incorrectly cited. It lists conflicts with parties to them, not the casualties caused by them. Comparing the source to the pages for each of the conflicts in question produces much smaller estimates. For example, read incorrectly, the linked source suggests that some ~58,000 (60,000 across conflicts) people have died in wars between Israel and Lebanon, when even the highest Lebanese estimates are 20,000. Estimates range from 13,000-15,000 at the lower end, and 18,000-34,000 at the higher end (and that's with double counting in civilian and combatant casualties as it is !). This means that EVEN WITH THE SOURCES IN QUESTION, THE CASUALTY RATE OF THE CONFLICT IS AT MINIMUM 24,000 SMALLER, and up to 45,000!. | |||
| {{references}} | |||
| When we account for the double counting, this results in a reduction of 14,000-27,000--so the numbers are 38,000-72,000 smaller. | |||
| == Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 April 2024 == | |||
| Adding up the casualty estimates provided on the wikipedia pages for each conflict, before adding the Israel-Palestine numbers gets us a range of 57-115. The Israel Palestine conflict page lists 53-65. Except, more than half of these are already included in the previous estimate. HOWEVER, even if we do not account for this we get a range of 110-168,000. Now if we add the recent Gaza war-which, again would be double counting in part--we would add 43,000. | |||
| {{edit extended-protected|List of ongoing armed conflicts|answered=yes}} | |||
| The suggested edit is combine the entry for the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the Israeli-Lebanese conflict, which is listed as a subcategory of the Arab-Israeli conflict in wikidata: https://www.wikidata.org/Q8669 | |||
| This means that even if we triple count Palestinian casualties listed on the wikipedia pages, our total rises to 153,--210,000--and EVEN THAT includes deaths not caused by Israel, double counts many victims, counts missing as dead, and so on. | |||
| In "Major wars (10,000 or more combat-related deaths in current or previous year)" section, change: | |||
| Even if we add Israelis killed in terrorism and riots (5-15,000 depending on how we count), Palestinians killed in intra-Palestinian violence (2000), The war of the camps between Lebanon and the PLO (4500--6500) and deaths in Black September between Jordan and Palestine (4000 in official estimates, but Arafat claims 15,000 Palestinians killed by Jordan, which would put the total at 16,000) we would get 15-40,000 more deaths and that would put our total at 168-250,000. | |||
| {{Tree list}} | |||
| * ] | |||
| ** ] | |||
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| ***** ] | |||
| {{Tree list/end}} | |||
| While the latter estimate is larger than the one listed on the page, this one includes 25,000 Palestinians killed by Lebanese, Jordanian, and Palestinian forces, it double counts a portion of Israeli terror victims (soldiers who died in terror attacks are listed in both war and civilian casualty estimates, and thus over state the estimates), while taking the higher estimate of those dead--thus increasing the estimate by up to 30,000. | |||
| To: | |||
| It double counts the dead prior to 1948, it double counts the dead in the 47-49 war, it triple counts Palestinian casualties in wars since the first intifada, it counts all those who have died in Lebanese wars, even those who were not killed by Israel (indeed including even those who died in wars before Israel even got involved!), it takes the higher estimates of dead in every conflict, even where US, & Israel estimates VASTLY lower, UN estimates are much lower, and independent Arab state & Human Rights organization estimates are somewhat lower. | |||
| {{Tree list}} | |||
| * ] | |||
| ** ] | |||
| *** ] | |||
| **** ] | |||
| ***** ] | |||
| ** ] | |||
| *** ] | |||
| **** ] | |||
| {{Tree list/end}} | |||
| The double and triple counting adds 35,000-80,000 deaths. Taking the highest estimates adds 57,000. | |||
| In "Wars (1,000–9,999 combat-related deaths in current or previous year)" section, remove the row starting with: | |||
| {{Tree list}} | |||
| * ] | |||
| ** ] | |||
| *** ] | |||
| {{Tree list/end}} | |||
| Notably, adding together the total casualties from more reliable sources gets us 122,000 before the recent war, and then 43,000 for the recent war, bringing us to 165,000! | |||
| Change the Cumulative Fatalities entry for the Arab-Israeli conflict row, using the same source: https://www.systemicpeace.org/warlist/warlist.htm | |||
| Notice, this brings us a very similar estimate to taking the lower estimate from all the respective wikipedia pages for each of the episodes of the Israel Palestine conflict. | |||
| {{td |64,000–73,000+<ref>https://www.systemicpeace.org/warlist/warlist.htm</ref> |94,000+<ref>https://www.systemicpeace.org/warlist/warlist.htm</ref> }} ] (]) 17:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC) ] (]) 17:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| : Appears to have already been done. ] ] 23:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <references /> | |||
| Since independent sourcing leads to a similar estimate to the one produced by using other wikipedia sources at the lower end, this is a good indicator it is of reliability, especially since getting the higher estimates requires that up to 14% (35/250) - 40% (80/193) of the casualties attributed are Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians and Jordanians killed by other Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, and Jordanians, and it requires taking the higher estimate in every case, which accounts for 23% (57/250) -- 50% (58/115) of the deaths. If 55% of a casualty estimate ((57+80)/250) depends on attributing deaths of people killed by other states, and taking the higher estimate of casualties in every single case, chances are the estimate is off! | |||
| == Make Belarus Yellow == | |||
| Thus, the page here: | |||
| ^ ] (]) 23:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| 1. incorrectly cites a source | |||
| 2. misrepresents that sources claims | |||
| 3. cites a source which itself engages in double counting and unclear attribution | |||
| 4. does not line up with the other wikipedia pages' conflict estimates or those of their sources *EVEN AT THEIR HIGHER END* | |||
| 5. to be true requires an estimate that requires 14-40% of the deaths be those caused by other states, and 23-50% of the casualty estimates are due to taking the higher range of each estimate, with a combined effect that 55% of casualties are tendentiously attributed | |||
| 6. does not line up with independent sourcing | |||
| Meanwhile, another estimate (165,000), which: | |||
| :Hi, I'm open to this. Can you provide any sources or documentation of ongoing fighting in Belarus? Also, is this conflict information reflected in wikidata? ] (]) 03:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| 1. Uses independent sources | |||
| 2. Minimizes double counting | |||
| 3. Only attributes deaths caused by Israel | |||
| 4. Lines up with the lower estimates of the relevant wikipedia pages and their sources | |||
| 5. Is self consistent | |||
| 6. Strikes a moderate balance between the estimates of US, Israel, UN, Arab League, Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, academics and so on | |||
| 7. Lines up with the cited source for this wikipedia page *IF* considerations are taken to interpret it correctly (which would give us a base of 114-159,000, to which we would add the 43,000 of the recent war, giving us 157,000--210,000 | |||
| Thus, the estimate of 165,000 lines up with the: | |||
| == Good faith edits by user Illegitimate Barrister == | |||
| 1. Other wikipedia pages | |||
| 2. Their sources | |||
| 3. Independent sources | |||
| 4. The *VERY SOURCE USED FOR THIS PAGE* if properly interpreted | |||
| THUS EVEN BY THE STANDARDS OF THE SOURCES CITED THE ESTIMATE GIVEN ON THE PAGE IS INFLATED BY 50%! A FULL THIRD OF THE CASUALTIES LISTED ARE IMPROPERLY ATTRIBUTED OR COMPLETELY FABRICATED ! | |||
| While the edits were in good faith, there are several issues with the removal of all flags, the unlinking of all countries, and the listing of countries through commas. No other article does this. MOS:FLAG does NOT apply here, as this is a military article, and the flags both help the article visually and can help users distinguish between countries in ways outside their name. Also, the italics were on nations like Armenia and South Korea due to them being disputed states (which Illegitimate Barrister would've known had they read the CRITERIA "Italics indicate disputed territories and unrecognized states."). Then, the unlinking of countries to their respective articles is just kinda stupid, considering it makes it harder to find more info on the nations for people who aren't educated in the subject. Also, HARDLY ANY OTHER ARTICLE IS FORMATTED IN THIS FASHION. Look at most other lists around wikipedia. ], ], and the majority of other military-related articles. All would break the MOS:FLAG according to IB's edits on this page. Also, it just looks so damn horrible. Someone, please revert the edits. I cannot do so as I am not extended confirmed. Or hell, even better, @] themselves revert the edits. ] (]) 02:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| This does not require using Israeli or US estimates (which are *lower* than the 165,000 estimate!). In fact, it holds even if we use the estimates of Arab states (the highest ones--which would produce at the highest 210,000 as above), human rights organizations (the second highest), or scholarly academic sources (those in the median range). | |||
| :I agree the edits should be reverted. The flags are in line with other articles and standards. Possibly @] removed the flags because the article is controversial, and MOS:FLAG states that flags may be removed in controversial artricles. However, in this case, the flags do not appear to be the controversial aspect of the article, and the change is now inconsistent with ], as @] points out. ] (]) 03:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| US and Israeli sources would give us a total estimate somewhere near 100-120,000 | |||
| UN, Human Rights organization and Academic sources give us our middle range of 165,000. | |||
| ==Inaccurate and tendentious categorisation of Israel-Hamas war== | |||
| The highest estimates give us a total of 210,000. | |||
| Grouping all of the wars Israel has been involved in since 1948 as one conflict is self-evidently non-factual, tendentious and deliberately intended to inflate the total casualty count (which itself is highly dubious; hundreds of thousands!? Add up the casualties in the 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982 and then other conflicts does not come close to 300,000). The total Arab casualties in all of the wars of the Arab-Israeli conflict in the Arab-Israeli conflict article is around 90,000. If you're actually saying Israel is a "belligerent in the Yemeni civil war", and then adding all of the deaths from that conflict (given Israel has not struck back at all and is not at war with Yemen or Houthis, and has not caused any deaths in Yemen) is so obviously biased, as is calling Israel a "belligerent" in what are, in fact, unlawful terror attacks by a non-state actor. | |||
| I don't know how to do a signature here so sorry User:Idontknowhowtodothissorry ''-- 2 May 2024 2a02:6b6d:1338:0:fd31:8c17:3cf2:3a56'' | |||
| Notice further that the middle range estimate of 165,000 is roughly the mean of the lower, medium, and high estimates. This is further indication of its validity since it balances opposed viewpoints and expertises. | |||
| Thus, the casualty range for the Israel Palestine conflict should--to be charitable to all the different perspectives and viewpoints--read something like: | |||
| Deaths: | |||
| 165,000 (110,000--210,000) | |||
| Not the current 230-241,000 which is false even on its own terms! | |||
| Source used by article <ref> | |||
| https://www.systemicpeace.org/warlist/warlist.htm </ref> | |||
| Other sources: | |||
| <ref> | |||
| https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-casualties-arab-israeli-conflict | |||
| </ref> | |||
| <ref> | |||
| https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel </ref> | |||
| <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/Six-Day_War </ref> | |||
| <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/War_of_Attrition </ref> | |||
| <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War </ref> | |||
| <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict </ref> | |||
| <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/Yom_Kippur_War </ref> | |||
| <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/Israeli%E2%80%93Lebanese_conflict </ref> | |||
| I made a table of the estimates given in the source linked for this page, and added below it the estimates given by other wikipedia pages: | |||
| <ref>https://olive-merralee-23.tiiny.site/</ref> ''<big>-- 20:14, 24 September 2024 38.130.70.73</big>'' | |||
| {{Reflist-talk}} | |||
| == Change the minimum estimate of those killed in the conflict in Ukraine to 120,000+ == | |||
| At the moment, according to the minimally recorded obituaries on both sides, the number of deaths should exceed 120 thousand people; the information in the article is outdated: | |||
| 1) 54,000+ dead on the Russian side https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/11/casualties_eng | |||
| 2) 46,000+ dead on the Ukrainian side | |||
| https://ualosses.org/ | |||
| 3) 10,000+ civilian deaths | |||
| https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says | |||
| 4) there is no point in proving the number of deaths before a full-scale war, I think these numbers are already in the public domain: approximately 14,000 people | |||
| You have some 100,000 victims listed, it can no longer be such a low estimate, I ask you to remove this | |||
| == The Papua conflict location == | |||
| the Papua conflict is not on Asia, but on Oceania because is on the island of new Guinea, that is part of the continent of Oceania. ] (]) 06:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Total fatalities for Islamic State insurgency in the North Caucasus is incorrect == | |||
| The source cited for total fatalities appears to be the fatalities for the first and second Chechen wars, not the ongoing insurgency. Total casualties for conflict according to the linked page appears to be around a thousand. ] (]) 19:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Arab Israel conflict == | |||
| Iran and proxies conflict with Israel isn't really part of arab Israeli conflict. | |||
| It should be in another category of Iran - Israel conflict, and maybe also part of Israel Palestine conflict, this war is lead by Iran and Hamas which are tied more to their religious! and national identities then their respective iranian and arab ones. ] (]) 20:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Ending 2024’s article and creating 2025’s article == | |||
| == Legend and map have specified types of war == | |||
| I suggest to anyone who edits this page. Please make sure that all the proper updates are made since the year is almost over and consider making 2025’s article. The world has changed so much since January. ] (]) 19:37, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| To preface, I do not think that there is an error, I do believe this is intentional, I just think it would be better done differently. | |||
| :It's been taken care of. ] (]) 14:05, 25 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| For the legend for the map: | |||
| Yellow is "Skirmishes and Clashes (1-99)" | |||
| Orange is "Minor conflicts (100-999) | |||
| Red is "Wars (1,000-9,999)" | |||
| Maroon is "Major wars (10,000 or more)" | |||
| == Mozambican election crisis == | |||
| Why does it take casualties as a measurement, and then apply a label to it? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to just be by casualties? | |||
| It seems to be overstating these conflicts, especially considering many conflicts throughout the past 20 years have had well over 100,000 casualties, and in the past 100 years many that have reached millions dead. I am not saying these ongoing ones are not still horrific losses of life, any death is terrible, but calling anything with at least 10,000 casualties a 'Major War' seems a bit strange when looking at the number of deaths of other wars in history. | |||
| There's an uprising in major cities against FRELIMO, with hundreds of deaths already recorded. This should be included in the article. ] (]) 09:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Pretty much I just think the map and legend should be by casualties alone, without labels such as "Minor conflict" or "Major war" being applied. | |||
| == Ethiopian civil conflict == | |||
| If I'm missing something obvious, please do point it out, I just want to make Misplaced Pages better. ] (]) 18:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| The number we have was taken on December 4th, and was just a few below the 10k margin. Maybe we should get an updated one because it's statistically extremely likely it passed it ] (]) 03:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == why the Arab-Israeli conflict Casualties are high there are? == | |||
| :Will be updated as soon as new data are available. ] (]) 16:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| most source show there around 110,000-120,000 not 200,000+ like in table | |||
| == Move Ethiopia to the Major Wars category == | |||
| like | |||
| https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties | |||
| https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-casualties-arab-israeli-conflict ] (]) 10:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| On December 4th 2024, it was 9985 deaths. That number wasn't updated in the last month. On average 900 people were dying per month. Are we seriously saying 15 people didn't die from December 5th-December 31st? ] (]) 01:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Time to update with UCDP data for 2023 and before == | |||
| ] data for 2023 was published in 29 May 2024. See https://ucdp.uu.se/year/2023 . As usual, many numbers are lower than in this table. | |||
| :It will be updated when the newest data are available. ] (]) 16:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 January 2025 == | |||
| == Mistake in Final Table == | |||
| {{edit extended-protected|List of ongoing armed conflicts|answered=no}} | |||
| The last table in the article which lists countries by armed conflict deaths has the Democratic Republic of the Congo listed twice in the last column under 2023 deaths. I assume whoever made the error perhaps meant to type a different country such as the Republic of the Congo or perhaps more likely the Central African Repubic or Burkina Faso? The second appearance of the Democratic Republic of the Congo has a different figure for the number of deaths than the first, so perhaps that figure applies to a different country? If someone knows the answer, please edit accordingly. Thank you.] (]) 00:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Israel-Hamas war is now in ceasefire which could lead to changing geopolitics in the region. Is it possible to put up a notice for the same for the time being, until we have confirmed news? ] (]) 00:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Why is Israel italicized? == | |||
| == Shouldn't the yellow section of the map be 2-99 not 1-99? == | |||
| I may be wrong, but I believe that this is because this article claims that the legitimacy of Israel as a nation is in question. Whilst there are valid objections to Israel’s conduct in Gaza, Israel is officially recognized by the UN as a country, whether you like it or not. As such, it should not be italicized in the same way that Western Sahara is. ] (]) 05:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| How do you have a skirmish with only 1 person? ] (]) 00:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 05:01, 17 January 2025
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of ongoing armed conflicts article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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 | To help centralize discussions and keep related topics together, File talk:Ongoing conflicts around the world.svg redirects here. |
Wikidata list of ongoing conflicts
The following automatically generated list shows conflics that have start dates but no end date in wikidata. It is updated every 60s day. It might be useful in keeping this article up to date. The content of the table affects wikidata based infoboxes used in Misplaced Pages articles about wars on other Misplaced Pages versions, for example Databox used in Swedish Misplaced Pages. Please help by fixing any errors in the wikidata objects.
Update the list now |SPARQL |Find imagesThis list is automatically generated from data in Wikidata and is periodically updated by Listeriabot.
Edits made within the list area will be removed on the next update!
_-_AFG_-_UNOCHA.svg)
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∑ 62 items.
End of auto-generated list.Inaccurate and tendentious categorisation of Israel-Hamas war
Grouping all of the wars Israel has been involved in since 1948 as one conflict is self-evidently non-factual, tendentious and deliberately intended to inflate the total casualty count (which itself is highly dubious; hundreds of thousands!? Add up the casualties in the 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982 and then other conflicts does not come close to 300,000). The total Arab casualties in all of the wars of the Arab-Israeli conflict in the Arab-Israeli conflict article is around 90,000. If you're actually saying Israel is a "belligerent in the Yemeni civil war", and then adding all of the deaths from that conflict (given Israel has not struck back at all and is not at war with Yemen or Houthis, and has not caused any deaths in Yemen) is so obviously biased, as is calling Israel a "belligerent" in what are, in fact, unlawful terror attacks by a non-state actor. I don't know how to do a signature here so sorry User:Idontknowhowtodothissorry -- 2 May 2024 2a02:6b6d:1338:0:fd31:8c17:3cf2:3a56
Total Casualties for 2023 and 2024 of Israel-Gaza and Israel-Lebanon War double counts casualties again
According to the UN impact report, the total casualties of the Israel Gaza war are 45,000 for both years. Casualties for Lebanon total 3,000. Therefore a total equaling 53,000 to 63,000 over counts casualties by 5,000-15,000.
2023 casualties should be 22,000 or so, and 2024 should be 26,000.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/reported-impact-snapshot-gaza-strip-17-december-2024
https://apnews.com/article/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-death-toll-798b846237a24ed37490ea29bd4e3aba — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.130.70.120 (talk) 13:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Note that the Upsala Conflict Database--cited by the wikipedia page here as a source--actually concurs with the lower numbers I mentioned.
In other words, by both the official UN sources AND the *sources cited* the casualties listed as incorrect. We could perhaps chalk this up to the page editor not clicking the dis-aggregated view of the data, but given the frequency of tendentious casualty reporting on this subject, where, for example, 50,000 casualties from the Lebanon War are attributed to Israel despite them occurring before Israel entered the war--which, again, is what the sources cited themselves indicated--I am skeptical.
It also seems that this database was incorrectly cited, as indicating casualties rather than attacks https://acleddata.com/2024/10/10/israels-gaza-middle-east-a-year-in-numbers/
As their own casualty estimate is " This brought the total fatality toll of Palestinians killed since 7 October 2023 to more than 45,000. While the IDF pressed on with a grinding war in Gaza, the intensity of its operations decreased as Israel gained greater operational control over the Gaza Strip. Israeli forces targeted all five governorates of Gaza, but the highest number of attacks hit Gaza City and Dayr al-Balah. "
This means literally every source cited contradicts the number presented!
Please change the estimates to their correct numbers of 22,000 and 26,000.
Prior Double Counting Not Addressed, Current Double Counting Only Worsens the Issue--Official & NGO Estimates put total casualties of IP conflict at about 50,000 smaller, at minimum
Note that even if we use the absurd elevated estimates given producing a 65,000 casualty count, when added to official indices the total for the entire 160 year Zionist Arab conflict is still 190,000. This means even with the inflated estimates provided, the total provided is off by at least 50,000.
http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/ink/israel/findex.htm
https://olive-merralee-23.tiiny.site/
https://www.systemicpeace.org/warlist/warlist.htm
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-casualties-arab-israeli-conflict
Adding together each: 1. Misplaced Pages page estimates of wars 2. The Uppsala data base of casualties 3. The relevant UN reports 4. Israeli Human Rights Groups reports 5. The Wars of the World Database 6. The Palestine Human Rights Monitor Group Estimates 7. The Battlefield Inequality Database cited by the wikipedia page 8. Israeli and US official estimates of casualties
Each produces estimates that range from 120,000-210,000 for the period of 1860-2024.
As stated, even adding the higher estimate of the double counted data for 2023 to 2024 to the prior data gives us a casualty estimate that is 50,000 smaller than the one stated.
Please correct the total casualty estimate of 242,000-246,000, since the minimum is much lower and the maximum is 210,000.
An average estimate of 171,000 would be most in line with the sources. But even stating it as 195,000 which 'compromises' by allowing some double counting and inflation for the sake of rhetorical peace, would be much more accurate than the current statement.
Perhaps then list it as 195,000 (171,000-210,000), since this uses the mean as the floor, while keeping the real ceiling. This allows for some arbitrary biasing upward, as a compromise between the truth and the wikipedia editors who, for whatever their reasons, want to use the incorrect estimates. This, at the very least would reduce the error rate from 42% to 14% at the lower end, and 50% to 25% at the higher end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.130.70.120 (talk) 13:50, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Double Counting of Casualties in Israel Palestine Conflict--Casualty Rate Should Read 165,000 (110,000-210,000)
The table links to a source that includes in its casualty list deaths from the Israel Palestine conflict, but to get the final number the editors added those to the previous number thus double counting them. What's more, the source itself already double counts casualties because it includes dead from the 1947-1949 war twice.
But, on top of this, the source is confusing but is incorrectly cited. It lists conflicts with parties to them, not the casualties caused by them. Comparing the source to the pages for each of the conflicts in question produces much smaller estimates. For example, read incorrectly, the linked source suggests that some ~58,000 (60,000 across conflicts) people have died in wars between Israel and Lebanon, when even the highest Lebanese estimates are 20,000. Estimates range from 13,000-15,000 at the lower end, and 18,000-34,000 at the higher end (and that's with double counting in civilian and combatant casualties as it is !). This means that EVEN WITH THE SOURCES IN QUESTION, THE CASUALTY RATE OF THE CONFLICT IS AT MINIMUM 24,000 SMALLER, and up to 45,000!.
When we account for the double counting, this results in a reduction of 14,000-27,000--so the numbers are 38,000-72,000 smaller.
Adding up the casualty estimates provided on the wikipedia pages for each conflict, before adding the Israel-Palestine numbers gets us a range of 57-115. The Israel Palestine conflict page lists 53-65. Except, more than half of these are already included in the previous estimate. HOWEVER, even if we do not account for this we get a range of 110-168,000. Now if we add the recent Gaza war-which, again would be double counting in part--we would add 43,000.
This means that even if we triple count Palestinian casualties listed on the wikipedia pages, our total rises to 153,--210,000--and EVEN THAT includes deaths not caused by Israel, double counts many victims, counts missing as dead, and so on.
Even if we add Israelis killed in terrorism and riots (5-15,000 depending on how we count), Palestinians killed in intra-Palestinian violence (2000), The war of the camps between Lebanon and the PLO (4500--6500) and deaths in Black September between Jordan and Palestine (4000 in official estimates, but Arafat claims 15,000 Palestinians killed by Jordan, which would put the total at 16,000) we would get 15-40,000 more deaths and that would put our total at 168-250,000.
While the latter estimate is larger than the one listed on the page, this one includes 25,000 Palestinians killed by Lebanese, Jordanian, and Palestinian forces, it double counts a portion of Israeli terror victims (soldiers who died in terror attacks are listed in both war and civilian casualty estimates, and thus over state the estimates), while taking the higher estimate of those dead--thus increasing the estimate by up to 30,000.
It double counts the dead prior to 1948, it double counts the dead in the 47-49 war, it triple counts Palestinian casualties in wars since the first intifada, it counts all those who have died in Lebanese wars, even those who were not killed by Israel (indeed including even those who died in wars before Israel even got involved!), it takes the higher estimates of dead in every conflict, even where US, & Israel estimates VASTLY lower, UN estimates are much lower, and independent Arab state & Human Rights organization estimates are somewhat lower.
The double and triple counting adds 35,000-80,000 deaths. Taking the highest estimates adds 57,000.
Notably, adding together the total casualties from more reliable sources gets us 122,000 before the recent war, and then 43,000 for the recent war, bringing us to 165,000!
Notice, this brings us a very similar estimate to taking the lower estimate from all the respective wikipedia pages for each of the episodes of the Israel Palestine conflict.
Since independent sourcing leads to a similar estimate to the one produced by using other wikipedia sources at the lower end, this is a good indicator it is of reliability, especially since getting the higher estimates requires that up to 14% (35/250) - 40% (80/193) of the casualties attributed are Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians and Jordanians killed by other Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, and Jordanians, and it requires taking the higher estimate in every case, which accounts for 23% (57/250) -- 50% (58/115) of the deaths. If 55% of a casualty estimate ((57+80)/250) depends on attributing deaths of people killed by other states, and taking the higher estimate of casualties in every single case, chances are the estimate is off!
Thus, the page here: 1. incorrectly cites a source 2. misrepresents that sources claims 3. cites a source which itself engages in double counting and unclear attribution 4. does not line up with the other wikipedia pages' conflict estimates or those of their sources *EVEN AT THEIR HIGHER END* 5. to be true requires an estimate that requires 14-40% of the deaths be those caused by other states, and 23-50% of the casualty estimates are due to taking the higher range of each estimate, with a combined effect that 55% of casualties are tendentiously attributed 6. does not line up with independent sourcing
Meanwhile, another estimate (165,000), which: 1. Uses independent sources 2. Minimizes double counting 3. Only attributes deaths caused by Israel 4. Lines up with the lower estimates of the relevant wikipedia pages and their sources 5. Is self consistent 6. Strikes a moderate balance between the estimates of US, Israel, UN, Arab League, Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, academics and so on 7. Lines up with the cited source for this wikipedia page *IF* considerations are taken to interpret it correctly (which would give us a base of 114-159,000, to which we would add the 43,000 of the recent war, giving us 157,000--210,000
Thus, the estimate of 165,000 lines up with the: 1. Other wikipedia pages 2. Their sources 3. Independent sources 4. The *VERY SOURCE USED FOR THIS PAGE* if properly interpreted
THUS EVEN BY THE STANDARDS OF THE SOURCES CITED THE ESTIMATE GIVEN ON THE PAGE IS INFLATED BY 50%! A FULL THIRD OF THE CASUALTIES LISTED ARE IMPROPERLY ATTRIBUTED OR COMPLETELY FABRICATED !
This does not require using Israeli or US estimates (which are *lower* than the 165,000 estimate!). In fact, it holds even if we use the estimates of Arab states (the highest ones--which would produce at the highest 210,000 as above), human rights organizations (the second highest), or scholarly academic sources (those in the median range).
US and Israeli sources would give us a total estimate somewhere near 100-120,000
UN, Human Rights organization and Academic sources give us our middle range of 165,000.
The highest estimates give us a total of 210,000.
Notice further that the middle range estimate of 165,000 is roughly the mean of the lower, medium, and high estimates. This is further indication of its validity since it balances opposed viewpoints and expertises.
Thus, the casualty range for the Israel Palestine conflict should--to be charitable to all the different perspectives and viewpoints--read something like:
Deaths:
165,000 (110,000--210,000)
Not the current 230-241,000 which is false even on its own terms!
Source used by article
Other sources:
I made a table of the estimates given in the source linked for this page, and added below it the estimates given by other wikipedia pages:
-- 20:14, 24 September 2024 38.130.70.73
References
- https://www.systemicpeace.org/warlist/warlist.htm
- https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-casualties-arab-israeli-conflict
- https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Six-Day_War
- https://en.wikipedia.org/War_of_Attrition
- https://en.wikipedia.org/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Yom_Kippur_War
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Israeli%E2%80%93Lebanese_conflict
- https://olive-merralee-23.tiiny.site/
Change the minimum estimate of those killed in the conflict in Ukraine to 120,000+
At the moment, according to the minimally recorded obituaries on both sides, the number of deaths should exceed 120 thousand people; the information in the article is outdated: 1) 54,000+ dead on the Russian side https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/11/casualties_eng 2) 46,000+ dead on the Ukrainian side https://ualosses.org/ 3) 10,000+ civilian deaths https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says 4) there is no point in proving the number of deaths before a full-scale war, I think these numbers are already in the public domain: approximately 14,000 people
You have some 100,000 victims listed, it can no longer be such a low estimate, I ask you to remove this
The Papua conflict location
the Papua conflict is not on Asia, but on Oceania because is on the island of new Guinea, that is part of the continent of Oceania. Delfi707 (talk) 06:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Total fatalities for Islamic State insurgency in the North Caucasus is incorrect
The source cited for total fatalities appears to be the fatalities for the first and second Chechen wars, not the ongoing insurgency. Total casualties for conflict according to the linked page appears to be around a thousand. Chiss5618 (talk) 19:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Arab Israel conflict
Iran and proxies conflict with Israel isn't really part of arab Israeli conflict.
It should be in another category of Iran - Israel conflict, and maybe also part of Israel Palestine conflict, this war is lead by Iran and Hamas which are tied more to their religious! and national identities then their respective iranian and arab ones. 46.121.26.191 (talk) 20:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
Ending 2024’s article and creating 2025’s article
I suggest to anyone who edits this page. Please make sure that all the proper updates are made since the year is almost over and consider making 2025’s article. The world has changed so much since January. 2600:1702:5870:5930:50C6:F0D8:4A3:C3EB (talk) 19:37, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's been taken care of. Whitesin21 (talk) 14:05, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Mozambican election crisis
There's an uprising in major cities against FRELIMO, with hundreds of deaths already recorded. This should be included in the article. 87.196.74.198 (talk) 09:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Ethiopian civil conflict
The number we have was taken on December 4th, and was just a few below the 10k margin. Maybe we should get an updated one because it's statistically extremely likely it passed it 2604:3D09:1F7F:8B00:149C:3CA4:EA67:41DA (talk) 03:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Will be updated as soon as new data are available. Whitesin21 (talk) 16:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Move Ethiopia to the Major Wars category
On December 4th 2024, it was 9985 deaths. That number wasn't updated in the last month. On average 900 people were dying per month. Are we seriously saying 15 people didn't die from December 5th-December 31st? 68.144.93.30 (talk) 01:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It will be updated when the newest data are available. Whitesin21 (talk) 16:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 January 2025
 | It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at List of ongoing armed conflicts. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
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Israel-Hamas war is now in ceasefire which could lead to changing geopolitics in the region. Is it possible to put up a notice for the same for the time being, until we have confirmed news? The eponomous pen (talk) 00:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Why is Israel italicized?
I may be wrong, but I believe that this is because this article claims that the legitimacy of Israel as a nation is in question. Whilst there are valid objections to Israel’s conduct in Gaza, Israel is officially recognized by the UN as a country, whether you like it or not. As such, it should not be italicized in the same way that Western Sahara is. LordOfWalruses (talk) 05:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
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