| Revision as of 05:50, 19 November 2020 editFuhghettaboutit (talk | contribs)85,115 edits →"Euthanasia" problem use in article: fixes← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 17:10, 8 December 2024 edit undoSpookyaki (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,405 edits Assessment: banner shell, Human rights (Top), Crime and Criminal Biography (Rater) |
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{{Not a forum|Genocides in history, editor behavior, or any other off-topic discussion not related to article improvement}} |
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{{Not a forum|Genocides in history, editor behavior, or any other off-topic discussion not related to article improvement}} |
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* <nowiki>{{Section link|Anti-Mongolianism|State-sponsored genocides by the Russian Empire/Soviet Russia, Imperial China/Communist China}}</nowiki> |
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] (]) 29 November 2010 |
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] (]) 29 November 2010 |
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== Section on prosecution of genocides copied where it may not be appropriate. == |
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== Can I edit andcontribute to this this source == |
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Hello, |
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Can I edit this source? I really want to contribute to this wikipage. |
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I'd just like to point out that the section on prosecutions of genocide perpetrators seems to have been copied in ]. Should we remove or modify the section on that sub-article? Or should we let it be? ] (]) 22:00, 8 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== Edit "Argentina" == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2023 == |
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At the moment it is stated that the "CPPCG does not include the elimination of political groups (because that group was removed at the behest of Stalin) ". While this maybe should just show the opinion of Judge Carlos Rozanski, it does not represent the more diverse historical facts. Actually, several states opposed the deletion of "political groups" from the convention and the finally successful attempt was led by Iran, Uruguay, and Egypt.<ref>{{cite journal|last1=LeBlanc|first1=Lawrence J.|title=The United Nations Genocide Convention and Political Groups: Should the United States Propose an Amendment?|journal=Yale Journal of International Law|date=1988|volume=13|issue=2|page=277|url=http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1523&context=yjil}}</ref> |
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Therefore, I think, that the Stalin part should be removed and the discussion of whose fault it is that "political groups" are not part of the Convention should be transferred to the Convention-article. |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{edit extended-protected|Genocides in history|answered=yes}} |
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== Massacres == |
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I would suggest adding the Nanking massacre, and the the first nuclear bombs dropped on Japan as genocide. These were major historic events. ] (]) 22:04, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] <sup>(]) </sup> 00:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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This page lacks an unavoidable reference to the acts of genocides committed by Timur during 35 years, including systematic ethnic cleansing and execution of entire populations, such as in Delhi and Middle East. According to Timur's contemporary chronicles and modern Historians, most victims were killed because of their religion beliefs, including Hindi, Buddhist, Armenian, Georgian, Greek Orthodox, etc. Estimates vary between 17 and 20 Million victims: |
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This article indeed has many examples of people murdering other people, but massacres of dissidents or rebels is not genocide, nor is people dying it introduced diseases unless such massacres or introduction of disease were intentional acts to exterminate a people. Are we deliberately watering down the definition of genocide for some nefarious means? ] (]) 23:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC) |
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17 Million vicitms according to "The History of the Mongol Conquests" of |
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John Joseph Saunders (1971) and the "Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300–1774." of David Nicolle (1983). |
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20 Million victims according to "Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World" of Justin Marozzi (2004). <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:42, 25 December 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 January 2024 == |
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It is a loaded and political question. High above us, humble Wikipedians to decide. If we find a couple of RSes which say smth is a genocide, we construct an argument here, taking POV amd DUE etc. into account. |
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Pls correct me if I am wrong. |
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] (]) 03:19, 25 August 2020 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|Genocides in history|answered=yes}} |
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== You mentioned: Determining what historical events constitute a genocide and which are merely criminal or inhuman behavior is not a clear-cut matter. == |
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Add a subsection on the current South Africa vs Israel issue at the International Court of Justice. There is already a wikipedia page on this. I have a possible paragraph to add at section https://en.wikipedia.org/Genocides_in_history#International_Court_of_Justice |
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## Israel |
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Two American colloquialisms for that are semigenocide, semiholocaust due to: |
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On December 29, 2023, ] filed an ] against Israel with the ICJ alleging that ] had violated its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (the "Genocide Convention") during its ].<ref>{{cite web |title=Application instituting proceedings and request for the indication of provisional measures. Document Number 192-20231228-APP-01-00-EN |url=https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203394}}</ref> South Africa's standing is based on the *erga omnes partes* nature of the Genocide Convention, which allows and obligates States Parties to the convention to take measures to prevent and punish the crime of genocide. South Africa requested indication of provisional measures by the ICJ, including that Israel end its military operations, to "protect against further, severe and irreperable harm to the rights of the Palestinian people under the Genocide Convention", triggering an urgent preliminary hearing. Public hearings on the provisional measures question were held on January 11 (oral arguments by South Africa) and January 12 (oral arguments by Israel), respectively.<ref>{{cite web |title=Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel) |url=https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192}}</ref> ] (]) 06:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC) |
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# not enough data |
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: {{Done}} ] ] 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) |
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# not enough deaths |
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# not a single criminal side |
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# not enough international acceptance of the facts |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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or some of the above. {{subst|xsign:18:40, 9 July 2020 2a02:587:410e:ca26:206c:5769:e396:a34f}} |
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:They may be colloquialisms to you, but I've never heard them before, and neither has Google. , , so I don;t think they'd be of much use to us. ] (]) 23:17, 9 July 2020 (UTC) |
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== "Euthanasia" problem use in article == |
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Use of the term 'euthanasia' ] is not appropriate. {{collapsetop}}It is defined as: |
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:] (My emphasis) |
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Nowhere in that Misplaced Pages ] can you find a sense of the word where it could be used appropriately to describe Nazi or similar crimes. Indeed, the Nazi program is discussed there specifically, and categorically stated as euphemistic. |
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{{collapsebottom}} |
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:] |
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Mentions of it appear in the above-linked ''Aktion T4'' article in inverted commas, e.g. "euthanasia campaign". |
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{{collapsetop}} |
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By including it in ], within a single sentence that lists |
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:"'''mistreatment''' of Soviet POWs" |
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:"'''crimes''' against ethnic Poles" |
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:"'''persecution''' of Jehovah's Witnesses" |
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:"'''the killing''' of Romani" |
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:"and '''other crimes''' committed against ethnic, sexual, and political minorities" |
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''and yet'' |
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:"'''euthanasia''' of mentally and physically disabled Germans" |
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you create confusion. The contrast of terms is discordant, grotesquely so. And, most importantly, reduces clarity. |
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Perhaps I did not select the most apposite replacement term, but I fail to see why my well-intentioned, and I believe, thoughtful, edit should be so summarily reverted by {{Reply to|The Banner}} with no explanation whatsoever. Talk about a warm welcome! |
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If someone has a better term, I'd be grateful if you put it into the sentence instead, but please, please, don't leave it as euthanasia, unmarked!] (]) 09:49, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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:::'''Response to reversion rationale''' As you point out, it was the “official”(!) term used by Nazis, and often still used in discussing it. It is therefore completely in order to mention the word in WP articles that deal with Nazi atrocities.(I would point out, as an aside, that the Nazis likely had “official” labels, also, for the other atrocities in this same list, but there they are, shown simply and straightforwardly as I noted: ”killing”, “crimes”, etc. The mere fact of them having an official term, does not preclude the plainer, direct term from being neutral!) Perhaps because I referred to the well-understood modern definition, you imagined I was saying it must never be used in connection with Nazi actions. That is not it at all. |
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:::My edit (and talk page discussion) was nothing to do with the fact that the Germans misused the term "euthanasia". (Indeed, as criminal as these acts were, in one sense they did not misuse the term for that time: Prior to the 1940s, "euthanasia" was more generally understood to refer only to painless killing, which I understand Nazis purported to do in these cases.) |
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:::I accept that I may be wrong. I believe in the consensus approach. Perhaps others will chime in with their view. However, I believe you did not really address any of the actual points I raised, (only what you imagined I was saying. I apologise if my statements were not clear.) ] (]) 08:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC) |
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:::Finally, I took the instruction in the editorial advice, “The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless” to heart. I thought it was rather uncontroversial, but, hey, you live and learn! You’re never safe from being surprised when you can find someone who argues that using the “official" term of the Nazis, despite there being a more factual label available, is the only way to be neutral. |
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::All the best to you, anyway, {{Reply to|The Banner}}. |
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{{collapsebottom}} |
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While informally we may discuss the Nazi "euthanasia" program, with full understanding that we are speaking of an atrocity, it is unencyclopedic to use it here in this way. A person seeking understanding of Nazi genocide should not need to parse that, read between the lines, or contextualise. |
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:'''Reversion rationale''' - I have reverted your non-neutral edit. It is true that the Germans misused the term euthanasia, but it is the official term in many cases. See for example ]. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 15:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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::'''Non-neutral to remove "euthanasia"?''' |
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::Your reply suggests the Nazi term is the only way to be non-POV (!), while saying nothing about how it may be confusing to the reader, as I contend. |
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::People commonly use and understand ''euthanasia'' as in the definition above. |
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::When people are all on the same page, or there is a fuller discussion around the issue, and Nazi use of the term ''euthanasia'' is contextualised, then referring to this mass murder program as “euthanasia" is not problematic. |
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::When it appears in a ] of contemporaneous, associated crimes that contrast starkly with the blunt labels assigned them, as here, then that has the potential to obscure clarity. |
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== Bibliography and Further reading == |
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::I was surprised to be directed to the ] page, as it was evidence from that article that I used to support my change. The opening reads: "Aktion T4 was a postwar name for '''''mass murder'' by involuntary euthanasia''' in Nazi Germany". Note here, as I mentioned in my earlier discussion, “euthanasia" appears in that article, but is perfectly clearly contextualised as mass murder, even if involuntary "euthanasia". As mentioned above, several WP articles use the word, but signal its dubious use by putting "-" around it, or other markers of non-standard usage. A similar understanding of the relevance and connotation of the terms is not present in, (and would not really be suitable for) the brief overview in ] article. |
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The Bibliography section seemed unfeasibly large to me, and contained many works not actually called by references in the article. I those which are not called to the Further reading section. I hope this makes the article more readable. ] (]) 23:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::In any case, I strongly reject that it is a non-neutral edit. My edit (and talk page discussion) was nothing to do with the fact that the Germans misused the term "euthanasia". I would welcome others' views and comments. ] (]) 08:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC) |
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:I too find it utterly jarring to see the use of "euthanasia" as it is employed here, exactly as described above – divorced from context, it reads as indicated: like its vernacular definition; a reference to humane death, applied to those for whom it is a mercy, which in ''this context couldn't be more non-neutral''. It reads like something a nazi apologist might write. Don't get me wrong – I don't for a moment believe that is what's going on here in any way, shape or form – but that's ''the result'', given the nature of the subject, and we should not minimize how bad it really does sound. That is why that context absolutely needs to be either provided, if the word is to remain in use, or a term or phrase needs to be used that doesn't read like this, but can stand on its own without context. Yet, providing that context very well may be beyond the scope of an article that provides only summary entries. If any form of "euthenasia" is to remain, then, it needs some device to impart that context, such as scare quotes and linking to involuntary euthenasia at the least, but I think "mass murder" suits fine, because it needs no context to pull it back from an unintended, naturally imparted meaning by its common, vernacular use.--] (]) 05:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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I have cleaned up this article again because it seems that a bunch of my edits were incorrectly reverted. Here are my edits:
This page lacks an unavoidable reference to the acts of genocides committed by Timur during 35 years, including systematic ethnic cleansing and execution of entire populations, such as in Delhi and Middle East. According to Timur's contemporary chronicles and modern Historians, most victims were killed because of their religion beliefs, including Hindi, Buddhist, Armenian, Georgian, Greek Orthodox, etc. Estimates vary between 17 and 20 Million victims:
17 Million vicitms according to "The History of the Mongol Conquests" of
John Joseph Saunders (1971) and the "Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300–1774." of David Nicolle (1983).
20 Million victims according to "Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World" of Justin Marozzi (2004). — Preceding unsigned comment added by As97wiki (talk • contribs) 21:42, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
The Bibliography section seemed unfeasibly large to me, and contained many works not actually called by references in the article. I have moved those which are not called to the Further reading section. I hope this makes the article more readable. DuncanHill (talk) 23:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EggRoll97 00:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Done